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(LA Times)   Most popular Wolf in Yellowstone killed by hunter. Where is your Red Riding Hood now?   (latimes.com) divider line 279
    More: Sad, Little Red Riding Hood, Yellowstone, animal liberation movement, hunters, contiguous United States  
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9325 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Dec 2012 at 2:38 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-12 03:03:46 PM

grasse: Well you did choose to live in a wolf populated area, it's not like they were put there after you moved.


I feel the same about women who go to bars and then complain about being raped.
 
2012-12-12 03:04:22 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: I still don't understand hunting, even when hunters aren't shooting popular animals. A bunch of fat, illiterate drunks stumble out into the woods at dawn, sit around in a wooden chair in the cold until mid-afternoon (or they get too drunk and fall out) and take potshots at wandering, defenseless wildlife in the meantime.

This is somehow "hunting".

When you manage to kill something by tracking it and fighting it to the death with your bare hands, I'll stop calling you fat, illiterate drunks and start calling you hunters. Not a moment sooner.

/ I'm just pissy because some fat, illiterate drunk was hunting in off-limits property behind my house a few years ago and put a bullet in my deck
// welcome to north-central PA.... I guess I should at least be glad he got out of his truck before he took the shot


Because I am poor, I live in the mountains, I want food, and one dead elk provides for months of it.... the cost ends up being pennies per pound of meat.

/145 lbs (not fat)
// MA in Econ (not illiterate)
///out of beer (but that's a great idea)
 
2012-12-12 03:04:47 PM

Smeggy Smurf: You must live in the big city. Wolves decimate livestock populations as well as deer, elk and other wildlife. They also kill pets and will attack people if you are acting like prey. Most people are prey.


That is a pile of bullshiat. There are more dog attacks than wolf attacks. Wolf attacks are exceedingly rare, in fact, as most wolves stay well away from humans.

Wolves don't decimate deer or elk herds either. They, in fact, cull the sick and weak from the herd. They also prevent the herds from overgrazing which in turn protects the environment for other wild life.

Wolf kills also feed many other animals.

To say that people are wolf prey is just astoundingly ignorant.
 
2012-12-12 03:04:49 PM

Smeggy Smurf: powtard: I still don't understand this hatred for wolves. Seriously, can someone please explain this to me?

You must live in the big city. Wolves decimate livestock populations as well as deer, elk and other wildlife. They also kill pets and will attack people if you are acting like prey. Most people are prey.


Isn't that what humans do?
 
2012-12-12 03:05:11 PM

Jamik137: but wolves not so much considering there are only ~1700 left.


Uh, no. There are about 60,000 to 70,000 wolves in North America right now. Wolves as a species are listed as 'Least Concern' by IUCN.
 
2012-12-12 03:05:56 PM
Since reading the headline I cannot get this song out of my head. If I suffer, so shall you.

Link
 
2012-12-12 03:06:08 PM

Smeggy Smurf: powtard: I still don't understand this hatred for wolves. Seriously, can someone please explain this to me?

You must live in the big city. Wolves decimate livestock populations as well as deer, elk and other wildlife. They also kill pets and will attack people if you are acting like prey. Most people are prey.


Nope, not from the city, just not wolf country. Funny how you assumed that... FYI, grew up as a hunter, in strong hunting country in upstate NY and have no problem with hunting meat. Killing animals for the sake of killing though was never considered "hunting" though where I'm from.

Anyways, from the stats I've seen, wolves don't take out livestock anywhere near the rate that weather and disease does. Also, I don't recall hearing about any wolf attacks on humans at all, but can tell you about a dozen stories of bear attacks, yet we're not killing them in to extinction (pardon my refusal to use the word "hunt"). As for pets, well, keep your pets under control, and don't let them wander and they won't look like prey.

So, again, why the hate?
 
2012-12-12 03:06:21 PM

mochunk: The article headline says "in Yellowstone". Which is false. As per the NPR story yesterday, the pack had wandered out of Yellowstone and into a legal hunting area.

At least the article could get that fact straight.

/hunting is stupid to people that don't hunt.


FTFY

/ I am sad about the wolf.
 
2012-12-12 03:06:57 PM

HeadLever: Jamik137: but wolves not so much considering there are only ~1700 left.

Uh, no. There are about 60,000 to 70,000 wolves in North America right now. Wolves as a species are listed as 'Least Concern' by IUCN.


He might mean Red Wolves.
 
2012-12-12 03:06:59 PM

sp86: firefly212: Easy meat and easy bread make easy fat and easy dead.

That's cute and all, but you have to admit deer hunting is pretty easy.

Granted you won't see a 400 lb dude dragging a bambi out on his all terrain rascal any time soon ... I forgot where I was going with that but that mental image is hilarious.


Dunno, never hunted deer... just turkey and last season was my first for elk. To be fair, I only hunted turkey because I know a guy with a proper smokehouse, that and I hate turkeys, they're mean and aggressive little a-holes.
 
2012-12-12 03:07:07 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: I still don't understand hunting, even when hunters aren't shooting popular animals. A bunch of fat, illiterate drunks stumble out into the woods at dawn, sit around in a wooden chair in the cold until mid-afternoon (or they get too drunk and fall out) and take potshots at wandering, defenseless wildlife in the meantime.

This is somehow "hunting".

When you manage to kill something by tracking it and fighting it to the death with your bare hands, I'll stop calling you fat, illiterate drunks and start calling you hunters. Not a moment sooner.

/ I'm just pissy because some fat, illiterate drunk was hunting in off-limits property behind my house a few years ago and put a bullet in my deck
// welcome to north-central PA.... I guess I should at least be glad he got out of his truck before he took the shot


Friend of my ex was walking in Centre county with her dog on leash. Both wearing blaze orange. Dog got killed and she lost an eye. Hunter got a small amount of time and ordered to pay restitution. He still hasn't payed much
 
2012-12-12 03:07:09 PM

grasse: Smeggy Smurf: powtard: I still don't understand this hatred for wolves. Seriously, can someone please explain this to me?

You must live in the big city. Wolves decimate livestock populations as well as deer, elk and other wildlife. They also kill pets and will attack people if you are acting like prey. Most people are prey.

Well you did choose to live in a wolf populated area, it's not like they were put there after you moved.


You Trolling? Wolves were reintroduced to Wyoming, Idaho and Montana in 1995.

/been here longer than that
 
2012-12-12 03:07:52 PM

Smeggy Smurf: powtard: I still don't understand this hatred for wolves. Seriously, can someone please explain this to me?

You must live in the big city. Wolves decimate livestock populations as well as deer, elk and other wildlife. They also kill pets and will attack people if you are acting like prey. Most people are prey.


Whatever. They do not decimate anything. There are only a few of them.

This argument makes me so angry. The people who move to the mountains and then are SHOCKED that there are mountain lions and bears piss me off beyond reason. You're an idiot If you move to the freaking mountains and then are surprised that a mountain lion eats your poodle or a bear gets into your hot tub. If you put a bunch of prey in a place where there are wolves, you shouldn't be surprised when a few get taken. I live where there are coyotes. None of my animals have been eaten by them because I take precautions and I'm not a farking idiot.
 
2012-12-12 03:08:00 PM

firefly212: Hunting isn't stupid... if we didn't have deer hunters to thin the pack, the deer would get all kinds of sick...


Which is what wolves have been doing since the dawn of time.
 
2012-12-12 03:08:39 PM

sp86: HeadLever: Jamik137: but wolves not so much considering there are only ~1700 left.

Uh, no. There are about 60,000 to 70,000 wolves in North America right now. Wolves as a species are listed as 'Least Concern' by IUCN.

He might mean Red Wolves.


No, he is mistaking the current population of grey wolves in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming (about 1700 wolves) to be all that is left.
 
2012-12-12 03:08:51 PM

firefly212: mochunk: The article headline says "in Yellowstone". Which is false. As per the NPR story yesterday, the pack had wandered out of Yellowstone and into a legal hunting area.

At least the article could get that fact straight.

/hunting is stupid

Hunting isn't stupid... if we didn't have deer hunters to thin the pack, the deer would get all kinds of sick... I was in MD when they banned it for a little while... I've never seen anything as sad as the consequences of that experiment... wasting diseases and starvation... it's pretty messed up what happens to their populations. As for elk hunting (which I did this year)... for the price of one elk tag, I can get enough meat to put in the deep freezer for several months, and the guy down in Fraser who dresses/carves them up gives 10-20 lbs of meat to a program that donates the (frozen) meat to poor families here in the mountains that need food. You say hunting is stupid, I say growing cows in torture-like conditions for years on end just so you can slaughter them en masse without needing to try as hard as hunters is stupid. Easy meat and easy bread make easy fat and easy dead.


In fairness, the reason we need hunters to thin deer herds is because hunters and urbanization wiped out most of their natural predators.

I'm all in favor of responsible hunting, but there's a long history of the irresponsible kind that is still going on.
 
2012-12-12 03:09:40 PM

Glitchwerks: Smeggy Smurf: You must live in the big city. Wolves decimate livestock populations as well as deer, elk and other wildlife. They also kill pets and will attack people if you are acting like prey. Most people are prey.

That is a pile of bullshiat. There are more dog attacks than wolf attacks. Wolf attacks are exceedingly rare, in fact, as most wolves stay well away from humans.

Wolves don't decimate deer or elk herds either. They, in fact, cull the sick and weak from the herd. They also prevent the herds from overgrazing which in turn protects the environment for other wild life.

Wolf kills also feed many other animals.

To say that people are wolf prey is just astoundingly ignorant.


I think maybe he's thinking of coyotes... they're known to overdo hunting to the point they have no prey/food, they're pretty aggressive towards people too. You're spot on though about wolves... they don't want anything to do with people unless you leave trash out, in which case they're much like bears... curious and hungry, but if you turn on a light and yell at em, they'll go away.
 
2012-12-12 03:10:39 PM

GoldSpider: Perhaps calling the police to report the inebriated trespasser would have done more to assuage your anger than has your futile hand-wringing.


Why would you assume I didn't? The odds of some drunken, trespassing hick in central PA getting caught for shooting at one guy's backyard from a heavily-forested area are pretty much nothing when he's just barely smart enough to realize he might not want to stick around, especially when you've only got two local cops and the staties don't really care.

firefly212: Because I am poor, I live in the mountains, I want food, and one dead elk provides for months of it.... the cost ends up being pennies per pound of meat.


<cartman>Haha, you're poor. </cartman>
 
2012-12-12 03:11:09 PM

sp86: HeadLever: Jamik137: but wolves not so much considering there are only ~1700 left.

Uh, no. There are about 60,000 to 70,000 wolves in North America right now. Wolves as a species are listed as 'Least Concern' by IUCN.

He might mean Red Wolves.


Red Wolverines?

i.ytimg.com
 
2012-12-12 03:12:27 PM

Litig8r: grasse: Well you did choose to live in a wolf populated area, it's not like they were put there after you moved.

I feel the same about women who go to bars and then complain about being raped.


I was not aware that bars stood for Brick Abodes Rapists Stay... but if it did, then yes I would see your point.
 
2012-12-12 03:13:11 PM

Wayne 985: firefly212: mochunk: The article headline says "in Yellowstone". Which is false. As per the NPR story yesterday, the pack had wandered out of Yellowstone and into a legal hunting area.

At least the article could get that fact straight.

/hunting is stupid

Hunting isn't stupid... if we didn't have deer hunters to thin the pack, the deer would get all kinds of sick... I was in MD when they banned it for a little while... I've never seen anything as sad as the consequences of that experiment... wasting diseases and starvation... it's pretty messed up what happens to their populations. As for elk hunting (which I did this year)... for the price of one elk tag, I can get enough meat to put in the deep freezer for several months, and the guy down in Fraser who dresses/carves them up gives 10-20 lbs of meat to a program that donates the (frozen) meat to poor families here in the mountains that need food. You say hunting is stupid, I say growing cows in torture-like conditions for years on end just so you can slaughter them en masse without needing to try as hard as hunters is stupid. Easy meat and easy bread make easy fat and easy dead.

In fairness, the reason we need hunters to thin deer herds is because hunters and urbanization wiped out most of their natural predators.

I'm all in favor of responsible hunting, but there's a long history of the irresponsible kind that is still going on.


I agree wholeheartedly about the need for hunting to be responsible... right now near where I live the cops are looking for a guy who killed a cow moose and three of her babies... that dude is gonna go to jail for a good long time, and very much deservedly so. Over-hunting animals totally jacks up the local systems, seeds and forestry things don't get spread by their poop, other animals don't have prey, underbrush doesn't get eaten by the lower herbivores... it just messes the whole balance of things up. Aside from that, I don't at all agree with the (common) practice of drinking while hunting... if there is anything that doesn't mix with gun safety, it's booze.
 
2012-12-12 03:13:12 PM

HeadLever: grasse: Smeggy Smurf: powtard: I still don't understand this hatred for wolves. Seriously, can someone please explain this to me?

You must live in the big city. Wolves decimate livestock populations as well as deer, elk and other wildlife. They also kill pets and will attack people if you are acting like prey. Most people are prey.

Well you did choose to live in a wolf populated area, it's not like they were put there after you moved.

You Trolling? Wolves were reintroduced to Wyoming, Idaho and Montana in 1995.

/been here longer than that


Reintroduced after an aggressor took them all out... Oh wait that aggressor was humans
 
2012-12-12 03:13:13 PM
thetrendboutique.files.wordpress.com

Much like Gary Busey and Rutger Hauer, I only hunt The Most Dangerous Game.

You can die from syphilis, you know.
 
2012-12-12 03:14:13 PM

HeadLever: sp86: HeadLever: Jamik137: but wolves not so much considering there are only ~1700 left.

Uh, no. There are about 60,000 to 70,000 wolves in North America right now. Wolves as a species are listed as 'Least Concern' by IUCN.

He might mean Red Wolves.

No, he is mistaking the current population of grey wolves in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming (about 1700 wolves) to be all that is left.


oh, he's a dumb shiat then.

probesport: sp86: HeadLever: Jamik137: but wolves not so much considering there are only ~1700 left.

Uh, no. There are about 60,000 to 70,000 wolves in North America right now. Wolves as a species are listed as 'Least Concern' by IUCN.

He might mean Red Wolves.

Red Wolverines?

[i.ytimg.com image 480x360]


ha.
 
2012-12-12 03:14:35 PM

powtard: So, again, why the hate?


For me, it is not about hate, but about proper management. Wolf populations need to be kept in check along with big game populations and it also helps to keep them out of rancher's pastures.

Most folks here really don't hate the wolves. They just do what they do. They hate the fact that they were reintroduced by the feds when the population of the three states did not want them in the first place. More a matter of politics than anything.

Combine that with the radical enviro crowd suing at every opportunity and you have a recipe for a good ol divisive issue.
 
2012-12-12 03:15:18 PM
I am reasonably calm about hunting despite the fact that hunters were always trespassing on my family's land and bullet holes ended up in my great uncle's porch but I still feel there are only certain reasons killing animals is okay:

1) Your life is in danger
2) Your property is in danger [like if a wolf was killing your animals]
3) You are going to eat it
4) Someone else is going to eat it

Trophies and showing off are not acceptable reasons for hunting. This shiat is stupid and they killed an alpha female. I hope they get caught and fined a lot of money.
 
2012-12-12 03:15:34 PM
What did the wolves think was going to happen after they killed Gerald Ford?
 
2012-12-12 03:17:32 PM

Gunny Highway: This is really disappointing.


you know it, man...huge story here in Montana. the two opposing sides are once again at each other's throats...i side with the wolves.
 
2012-12-12 03:18:17 PM
R.I.P.
 
2012-12-12 03:18:53 PM
If we didn't hunt deer, you'd be paying taxes to have them culled, and would lose the billions in hunting license fees that go toward management and conservation, not to mention the fact your crops would be decimated and you couldn't drive down a road in most rural areas.

I was about to defend the way I hunt, which is traditional, but you know what, fark that - if you don't hunt, have no idea what it is about and why it is important, and spout the ignorant nonsense like I see in these types of threads there is no convincing you, and I shouldn't have to and don't need to anyway.
 
2012-12-12 03:18:57 PM

ChipNASA: R.I.P.


www.chicagonow.com
 
2012-12-12 03:21:14 PM

please:
I was about to defend the way I hunt, which is traditional, but you know what, fark that - if you don't hunt, have no idea what it is about and why it is important, and spout the ignorant nonsense like I see in these types of threads there is no convincing you, and I shouldn't have to and don't need to anyway.


Atlatl?
 
2012-12-12 03:22:04 PM

ChipNASA: ChipNASA: R.I.P.

[www.chicagonow.com image 522x368]


You don't know Jack . . .
 
2012-12-12 03:22:13 PM

Braindeath: I am reasonably calm about hunting despite the fact that hunters were always trespassing on my family's land and bullet holes ended up in my great uncle's porch but I still feel there are only certain reasons killing animals is okay:

1) Your life is in danger
2) Your property is in danger [like if a wolf was killing your animals]
3) You are going to eat it
4) Someone else is going to eat it

Trophies and showing off are not acceptable reasons for hunting. This shiat is stupid and they killed an alpha female. I hope they get caught and fined a lot of money.


You forgot "when it is needed".

We've completely altered the environment these animals live in: we've eliminated predators, shrunk their habitats and put roads through what is left, and provided millions of acres of agriculture on which their populations can explode unchecked. Hunting is necessary and you're lucky there are still people left who are willing to do it (though that number shrinks rapidly every year).
 
2012-12-12 03:24:18 PM

please: I was about to defend the way I hunt, which is traditional, but you know what, fark that - if you don't hunt, have no idea what it is about and why it is important, and spout the ignorant nonsense like I see in these types of threads there is no convincing you, and I shouldn't have to and don't need to anyway.


Why would you shoot a wolf? I am not here to argue I am actually curious.
 
2012-12-12 03:24:19 PM

sp86: please:
I was about to defend the way I hunt, which is traditional, but you know what, fark that - if you don't hunt, have no idea what it is about and why it is important, and spout the ignorant nonsense like I see in these types of threads there is no convincing you, and I shouldn't have to and don't need to anyway.

Atlatl?


I'm looking into that actually.
 
2012-12-12 03:25:26 PM

grasse: Reintroduced after an aggressor took them all out... Oh wait that aggressor was humans


Yep, the old time ranchers knew how devistating they could be on livestock.
 
kab
2012-12-12 03:25:57 PM

Braindeath: Trophies and showing off are not acceptable reasons for hunting. This shiat is stupid and they killed an alpha female. I hope they get caught and fined a lot of money shot in the face.


Me too.
 
2012-12-12 03:26:31 PM

meat0918: On one hand, this sucks.

On the other hand, you get less legitimacy for poachers (screwed up, I know) if there is a legal avenue for them to hunt.

//Wanted to smack a hunter that said there is an unwritten law in Oregon that if you see a wolf, you shoot it and never saw a word. What an asshole.


You wouldn't say that if wolves were on your property killing your animals.
 
2012-12-12 03:26:36 PM

Gunny Highway: please: I was about to defend the way I hunt, which is traditional, but you know what, fark that - if you don't hunt, have no idea what it is about and why it is important, and spout the ignorant nonsense like I see in these types of threads there is no convincing you, and I shouldn't have to and don't need to anyway.

Why would you shoot a wolf? I am not here to argue I am actually curious.


Personally, I wouldn't, unless I was a property owner and they were nuisance animals, or unless their population was adversely affecting their prey numbers.

Sure, we could let them have at the prey unchecked, but in nature that often goes through peak and bust cycles that are wildly high and low, and if we can help manage that we should.
 
2012-12-12 03:26:43 PM

firefly212:

Hunting isn't stupid... if we didn't have deer hunters to thin the pack, the deer would get all kinds of sick... I was in MD when they banned it for a little while... I've never seen anything as sad as the consequences of that experiment... wasting diseases and starvation... it's pretty messed up what happens to their populations. As for elk hunting (which I did this year)... for the price of one elk tag, I can get enough meat to put in the deep freezer for several months, and the guy down in Fraser who dresses/carves them up gives 10-20 lbs of meat to a program that donates the (frozen) meat to poor families here in the mountains that need food. You say hunting is stupid, I say growing cows in torture-like conditions for years on end just so you can slaughter them en masse without needing to try as hard as hunters is stupid. Easy meat and easy bread make easy fat and easy dead.


Always wanted to go elk hunting, but the hunters I know pay crazy money for tags and lodging, and I'd prefer to go with experienced elk hunters my first time out.
 
2012-12-12 03:27:06 PM

HeadLever: grasse: Reintroduced after an aggressor took them all out... Oh wait that aggressor was humans

Yep, the old time ranchers knew how devistating they could be on livestock.


So they chose extincting a species over building better fences... Smart people! The wolves totally deserved it!
 
2012-12-12 03:27:33 PM
I never understand the whole "we need to hunt them to control their population' argument. Prey number falls as predator population increases. Insufficient prey leas to predator decrease due to famine and disease. decrease in predators leads to increase of prey. Increase of prey means increase of predators.
 
2012-12-12 03:28:45 PM

grasse: HeadLever: grasse: Reintroduced after an aggressor took them all out... Oh wait that aggressor was humans

Yep, the old time ranchers knew how devistating they could be on livestock.

So they chose extincting a species over building better fences... Smart people! The wolves totally deserved it!


Who said anything about "extinct"? The number of tags granted are always heavily regulated.
 
2012-12-12 03:29:04 PM

Gunny Highway: please: I was about to defend the way I hunt, which is traditional, but you know what, fark that - if you don't hunt, have no idea what it is about and why it is important, and spout the ignorant nonsense like I see in these types of threads there is no convincing you, and I shouldn't have to and don't need to anyway.

Why would you shoot a wolf? I am not here to argue I am actually curious.


For me it would be for the challenge of the hunt and general population control. Where I live elk populations have plummeted and the main cause is wolf depredation. It also helps out the local ranchers and a good pelt can bring you several hundred bucks.
 
2012-12-12 03:29:53 PM

please: Gunny Highway: please: I was about to defend the way I hunt, which is traditional, but you know what, fark that - if you don't hunt, have no idea what it is about and why it is important, and spout the ignorant nonsense like I see in these types of threads there is no convincing you, and I shouldn't have to and don't need to anyway.

Why would you shoot a wolf? I am not here to argue I am actually curious.

Personally, I wouldn't, unless I was a property owner and they were nuisance animals, or unless their population was adversely affecting their prey numbers.

Sure, we could let them have at the prey unchecked, but in nature that often goes through peak and bust cycles that are wildly high and low, and if we can help manage that we should.


I haven't seen too many people in this thread who have a problem with hunting. People seem to understand that herd number have to be managed. What I, and others, are confused about is the killing of this wolf in this particular instance. We will have to wait for more facts to come out to see if the killing of the wolf was for a legitimate reason.
 
2012-12-12 03:30:52 PM

please: grasse: HeadLever: grasse: Reintroduced after an aggressor took them all out... Oh wait that aggressor was humans

Yep, the old time ranchers knew how devistating they could be on livestock.

So they chose extincting a species over building better fences... Smart people! The wolves totally deserved it!

Who said anything about "extinct"? The number of tags granted are always heavily regulated.


I was talking about the old time ranchers, that nearly extincted the species and ran the wolves completely out of their natural habitats. That's why the wolves were reintroduced to the Yellowstone areas, so they could repopulate in a real environment.
 
2012-12-12 03:30:59 PM

please: You forgot "when it is needed".

We've completely altered the environment these animals live in: we've eliminated predators, shrunk their habitats and put roads through what is left, and provided millions of acres of agriculture on which their populations can explode unchecked. Hunting is necessary and you're lucky there are still people left who are willing to do it (though that number shrinks rapidly every year).


And those predators were wolves.

Only the most ignorant Farker would suggest we outlaw hunting, but like police officers, people stereotype hunters. The image of people hunting for sustenance is replaced by the typical image of people ruthlessly killing everything in sight, a lot like that South Park episode.
 
2012-12-12 03:31:25 PM

Maggie_Luna: I never understand the whole "we need to hunt them to control their population' argument. Prey number falls as predator population increases. Insufficient prey leas to predator decrease due to famine and disease. decrease in predators leads to increase of prey. Increase of prey means increase of predators.


Yes, having an over abundance of starving, diseased predators is way better than allowing hunting. O_o

Also, when that predator population is crashing and starving, do they think they go quietly into the night? They eat whatever they can when their prey is gone. Usually pets. I'm watching this happen with the northern Michigan coyote population right now, which is in its bust cycle. "Hide yo dogs, hide yo cats, coyotes stealing all the pets up in here!"
 
2012-12-12 03:32:08 PM

please: sp86: please:
I was about to defend the way I hunt, which is traditional, but you know what, fark that - if you don't hunt, have no idea what it is about and why it is important, and spout the ignorant nonsense like I see in these types of threads there is no convincing you, and I shouldn't have to and don't need to anyway.

Atlatl?

I'm looking into that actually.


I couldn't get into that. I need the meat, I don't need an animal to suffer; it's the same reason I don't use a bow or take shiatty shots with my .30-06.
 
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