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(Washington Times)   "The legislation (in MI) exempts firefighters and police officers but not schoolteachers. This is because firefighters and police officers are vital to society. Teachers are not"   (communities.washingtontimes.com) divider line 99
    More: Dumbass, President Obama, police officers, Michigan, Governor of Michigan, firefighters, society, legislation, Americans for Prosperity  
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3512 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Dec 2012 at 7:34 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-12-12 04:53:28 PM
10 votes:
The GOP plan for government:

1. Cut money to a service.
2. Service becomes so crappy that it's better to go private.
3. GOP now has an excuse to kill it entirely.
4. Repeat.

/how long until we kill public schools entirely?
2012-12-12 06:10:59 PM
6 votes:
I love the double talk on this:

It's good for the employees!!!

Oh, But we aren't doing it for cops or firefighters because we don't want to hurt them because they are important.


So which is it?
2012-12-12 05:29:25 PM
6 votes:
Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know.

Teachers can reduce the number of times firefighters and police officers have to do those things - besides reducing the things "most of us never know".


The real difference (besides "teachurs be libruls!") is the immediate, obvious feedback:
With cuts to firefighters and police, people might get hurt NOW. There'll be media attention and you'll get the blame.

But when society and economy go slowly down the shiatter, it's less obvious and people won't make a direct connection (especially if they had bad teachers) with education.
And should the shiat finally hit the fan, it'll be somebody else's problem because by then you'll have been out of office for some time. 


/related theory: "Fark you, I got mine!" means you have stuff you might be afraid to losing. And the people protecting your stuff are..?
2012-12-12 04:50:53 PM
6 votes:
Cops are vital?

No, they're the armed division of government revenue collection.

They prey on the profitable low-hanging fruit of people who drive too fast. Then they try to squirm out of taking police reports from people who are victims of crime. Always some horseshiat about it being a "ivil matter" or "not in their jurisdiction."

I don't have a problem with authority. I have a problem with lazy bumfarks who mostly collect money for the city council's fancy catered lunches.
2012-12-12 08:13:57 PM
5 votes:
GOP Logic:
Companies colluding - Good for business
Workers colluding - ZOMG SOCIALISM


We really are on our way to the Gilded Age take 2
2012-12-12 01:13:51 PM
5 votes:
Wow, that article has a troll-tastic headline, and based on the author's bio, I'm sure he'd be a blast at parties. Also, he may want to try to make his book titles a little more varied.

Also, this gem: "Money was taken from their paychecks to fund political causes they vehemently detested." about his parents. So, it's bad when unions do it, but just fine when the company you works for gets tax breaks that you have to pick up the slack on while they lobby for more tax breaks or else they'll move jobs overseas. Alternatively, if you're say, anti-war, your taxes are still going to that war. But this doesn't occur to the author.
2012-12-12 08:06:51 PM
4 votes:

China White Tea: I also feel like, if someone does not want to be a part of a union, they should, in no way, be barred from getting a job on that basis alone.


So why should they get the benefits of being in the union if they don't have to pay anything in? If they don't want to be in the union, fine, but they should then have to negotiate everything - pay, benefits, schedule - with the company themselves. And if that means the company is forced to give them a good package in order to compete with the union, that's fine. But if the company screws them over because they have no leverage, well, that's how it goes.
2012-12-13 01:26:04 AM
3 votes:

LargeCanine: StreetlightInTheGhetto: LargeCanine: LordJiro: LargeCanine: Fart_Machine: LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?

Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.

You are right. The only ones using force are the unions.

Nobody's stopping you from finding a job at a workplace without a union. But if you CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities that come with it. If you just want the benefits and wages the unions negotiate for without actually working for them, you're...well, a typical lazy, entitled Republican.

Bet you whine about poor people being 'leeches', too.

Ahem. "Projection"

Ahem, "you're not being clever".

I have two uncles who own their own business and a big part of that was because when they were damn near destitute children of WWII refugees, they got union jobs that offered them a decent living and got their back, helped them to find training, etc. Both of them are incredibly successful now, and while they worked like no other they would be the first to tell you that being part of the union made sure that they got a decent wage for that incredible amount of work they were doing. And because they weren't living paycheck to paycheck for the skilled trades they had learned, they could both save and start their own business and (gasp) become - job creators.

[images3.wikia.nocookie.net image 512x384]

/pic lgt video

Nice story. Irrelevant.


Considering I live in Michigan with a cowardly legislature who very shadily passed this crap,

considering my grandfather worked through incredibly hazardous conditions before joining strikes to collectively fight for the right to be treated like a human being and not just a intangible asset,

considering my uncles and nearly all my extended family save one still live in the state their parents or grandparents found a better life in in a large part due to unions,


considering despite the fact that my uncles have moved from being poor to incredibly successful but who both still hire union workers because even if it might cost more in the short term it's worth it in the long

IT'S CERTAINLY F--KING RELEVANT.
2012-12-12 08:40:43 PM
3 votes:
People at my last job biatched about $30 a month in union dues. We would always point out that, at a direct result of the last negotiating cycle, they were taking home about $200 a month more than they would have otherwise, plus their kids were finally covered in the health plan. They still biatched about the $30.

Moral: when the middle class finally dies, it will kind of deserve it.
2012-12-12 08:25:14 PM
3 votes:

Balchinian: Tyee: No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.

Nobody is forcing anyone to join a union in most cases. But if you choose not to join, you still have to pay union dues as if you did. That is the issue in a nutshell. Michigan says that arrangement is not fair...that if you pay money you should get something in return. What to non-union members get in return for those payments? Nada. Oh sure, the union is quick to point out that they get the job. But the job is ultimately not the union's to give, it is the employer's. So the question of what the non-union worker gets from the union is still "nothing".

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-union. Not at all! But I do think the one point this jumble-headed blogger makes correctly is that the union model is very badly broken. It has been for a long time, and it needs to be fixed very soon or unions will get shut down completely. The world is a vastly different place than it was 50 years ago, and the union model which worked for the benefit of the worker so well then is now almost completely counter-productive, and in some cases directly destructive. There needs to be union reform and total re-evaluation of its foundational principles, goals, and methodologies. They need to evolve, and quickly, if they want to be a part of the future in this country. If they don't, their days are numbered.


Well for starters they get better wages, benefits, healthcare, and pensions than they would have gotten if they had to negotiate the job in a vacuum. It is possible that they could currently negotiate for something on par now that the unions have done all the heavy lifting, but if the employee had to negotiate without the prior union negotiations then they would get nothing close to what can get through a union.
Ant
2012-12-12 08:13:36 PM
3 votes:
I guess labor just needs to remind businesses about the good old days
www.davisenterprise.com
2012-12-12 08:09:10 PM
3 votes:
It's the same reason the state police union was the only union exempt in Wisconsin's dismantling of collective bargaining: IN CASE OF PUBLIC UPRISING, THE RICH ARE STILL PROTECTED BY THE POLICE THEY ESSENTIALLY PURCHASED, and I guess in this case they also wanted the fires set to their homes by the lynch mobs put out
2012-12-12 07:57:19 PM
3 votes:
allmansd:
Cops and firefighters = men
Teachers = women & liberals



FTFY
2012-12-12 07:45:56 PM
3 votes:
Cops and firefighters = men
Teachers = women
2012-12-12 06:11:28 PM
3 votes:

The Voice of Doom: Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know.

Teachers can reduce the number of times firefighters and police officers have to do those things - besides reducing the things "most of us never know".


The real difference (besides "teachurs be libruls!") is the immediate, obvious feedback:
With cuts to firefighters and police, people might get hurt NOW. There'll be media attention and you'll get the blame.

But when society and economy go slowly down the shiatter, it's less obvious and people won't make a direct connection (especially if they had bad teachers) with education.
And should the shiat finally hit the fan, it'll be somebody else's problem because by then you'll have been out of office for some time. 


/related theory: "Fark you, I got mine!" means you have stuff you might be afraid to losing. And the people protecting your stuff are..?


The real reason is that police and firefighter unions tend to contribute more to Republicans.
2012-12-13 05:48:38 AM
2 votes:
I try not to dive into internet fights anymore, but jesus christ, I couldn't let this one go. As the child of a teacher that has watched her mother get screwed over by the state time and time again while still doing her damndest to be the best teacher she possibly can - taking more classes, buying supplies for her classroom out of her own damn eternally dwindling paycheck - I can't even begin to describe how much this article enraged me. And the writer is supposedly the child of teachers himself. I hope they're dead rather than reading the shiat their son just wrote bashing the hell out of them.

To the writer, from the very bottom of my heart, I say, "Go fark yourself sideways with a sharp stick, you ignorant, disgusting sack of shiat."
2012-12-13 04:08:39 AM
2 votes:
i.imgur.com

I wonder if GOP understands ppl also want a job that pays enough to live a decent life. How about we cut CEO and Exec pay first?
2012-12-13 01:46:10 AM
2 votes:

LordJiro: Because if the unions go, big business will have no opposition in this country. And all the progress we've made will be rolled back in no time.


It's been on the path for awhile, honestly. Granted, I'm not the happiest with the larger unions, haven't been for quite some time (although the smaller ones I've interacted with I've generally always come away with a positive experience). But they've been desperately clinging to the side of the boat to keep from drowning for awhile. And it's quite easy to see how workers have already been suffering because of it - I can't count the number of people I've met working incredibly insane hours for the privilege of not losing their job.

Contrast this to America's Hat:

www.washingtonpost.com 

Of course, motherf--king health care isn't an issue on the negotiating table for Canadian unions.
2012-12-12 08:38:58 PM
2 votes:

Popcorn Johnny: If unions care about workers as much as they claim to, they'll continue representing the employees even if they're not being paid for it.



If firefighters and police really care about the citizens they're sworn to protect, they'll send their paychecks back and serve their cities gratis.
2012-12-12 08:26:23 PM
2 votes:
As has been alluded to in this thread, this was done to hit their political opponents and nothing else. Any talk about "principles" is just marketing.

If unions supported the GOP, they'd be demanding we all join the Teamsters.
2012-12-12 08:25:44 PM
2 votes:

Balchinian: What to non-union members get in return for those payments? Nada. Oh sure, the union is quick to point out that they get the job. But the job is ultimately not the union's to give, it is the employer's. So the question of what the non-union worker gets from the union is still "nothing".


Nothing except the hard work of negotiating the pay and benefits that your free rider is now benefiting from.
2012-12-12 08:22:12 PM
2 votes:
Police and Firefighters? Good for today.
Teachers? Good for tomorrow.
2012-12-12 08:16:25 PM
2 votes:
One step closer to legalizing child and slave labor. That's their goal.
2012-12-12 08:15:44 PM
2 votes:

Mentat: BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?

It's the same divide and conquer strategy Walker tried in Wisconsin. Set the unions against each other, take out the public sector unions, take out the industrial unions, and then take out the police and firefighter unions last when there's no one left to support them.


First they came for the teachers union, and I didn't speak out because I'm not a teacher...
2012-12-12 08:14:55 PM
2 votes:
FTFA If every public schoolteacher quit tomorrow, private schools, charter schools, and home-schooling would pick up the slack.

Well, except for the couple to few million special-needs kids born to parents who can't afford either high-priced schools or staying home, that private/charter schools don't want to touch with a 50-foot-pole. But, y'know, fark them. That's what Jesus would say.
2012-12-12 08:14:29 PM
2 votes:

China White Tea: I almost never see this position represented in conversations about unions, and since I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the subject, I assume I am missing something that makes it an unreasonable position... so could someone tell me what that is?


Free rider problem.
2012-12-12 08:06:25 PM
2 votes:

China White Tea: I assume I am missing something that makes it an unreasonable position... so could someone tell me what that is?


If one is not forced then the Unions lose power.
2012-12-12 07:59:55 PM
2 votes:
No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.
2012-12-12 07:47:55 PM
2 votes:
So. I asked this idiot if he went to school. Be interesting to see what he says. I'll let you know if I get a response, and if so, what it is.
2012-12-12 07:47:29 PM
2 votes:
I wouldn't mind if these people ran on a platform of "If elected, I will bust the unions," then got elected and busted the unions. That would be giving people what they wanted. It just seems that they're all running on some completely different platform, then when they get into power do the ol' bait and switch and pursue some completely different agenda. Had George Bush run on a platform of "If elected, I will invade Iraq," he never would have gotten elected (come to think of it...). But he stated on numerous occasions during the campaign that he "wasn't interested in nation-building" and then proceeded to do precisely that. How can we ever trust the repub Party again? They lie preferentially. Onto the ashbin of history with them.
2012-12-12 07:23:36 PM
2 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?


It's the same divide and conquer strategy Walker tried in Wisconsin. Set the unions against each other, take out the public sector unions, take out the industrial unions, and then take out the police and firefighter unions last when there's no one left to support them.
2012-12-12 05:59:09 PM
2 votes:
The purpose of the legislation is to save schoolteachers and the rest of the left from themselves. Right-to-work legislation in neighboring states like Indiana has strengthened their economies at Michigan's expense. Foreign investors have zero interest doing business in anti-business slums. Governor Snyder wants to save Michigan from collapse.

Fark. You.

Just... Fark you.
2012-12-12 05:48:15 PM
2 votes:

timujin: 1. If an article's headline asks a question that can be answered "no", don't bother writing the article.


Headlines that can be answered by "no" -- a good idea?
2012-12-12 04:40:54 PM
2 votes:
1. If an article's headline asks a question that can be answered "no", don't bother writing the article.

2. There's no way that headline is a direct quote... oh, shiat. Alright, so the article headline is stupid and then the writer manages to double down in the body. Fantastic.
2012-12-12 04:00:11 PM
2 votes:
Hey, look! It's another blog from some guy!
2012-12-12 03:19:57 PM
2 votes:
Last time I checked, you needed at least a HS diploma to be a firefighter or police officer.
2012-12-13 01:52:15 PM
1 votes:

BeesNuts: beta_plus: Muk_Man: beta_plus: Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"

I know you're a troll. But honestly, you're saying your teachers are bad, so let's kill their unions so they can't get good pay and therefore attract intelligent people to the position(some people are altruistic, but a solid pay will draw other people). Yes there are other problems with the US system, but unions aren't necessarily the problem. We have them in Canada and our schools perform quite well... I'd love to hear some educational reform policy you think would help.

American leftists are assholes who don't blink an eye at defending child rapists (see LA County & Penn State). If the violence of the protest didn't show you that directly, I'm not sure what will. Canadian leftists are not assholes and can therefore be trusted. It's as simple as that. If you have a way of "legislating away the assholeness of the American Left", I'm all ears.

Still struggling to work your head around a center right nation electing a socialist kenyan to the whitehouse *twice*, huh?

You'll get over it.


Penn State? What teachers were accused of shenanigains with little boys? Last I checked it was the football team and their backers on the university board. get your facts straight, conservatard
2012-12-13 01:50:54 PM
1 votes:

CheapEngineer: beta_plus: Mentat: BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?

It's the same divide and conquer strategy Walker tried in Wisconsin. Set the unions against each other, take out the public sector unions, take out the industrial unions, and then take out the police and firefighter unions last when there's no one left to support them.

As usual, libtards try to hide their bitter tears of impotent rage by being intentionally obtuse on why having an actual skill set and doing something inherently dangerous allows one to have a sustainable and useful union.

[images.sodahead.com image 350x262]

/oh, and conveniently ignoring the 1919 Boston Police Strike

While you conveniently ignore the 1896 Philadelphia barn fire. Apparently none of you republi-tards are capable of learning from history!

\wow, that was easy


not to mention the Triangle fire, but hey who wants to?
2012-12-13 01:49:05 PM
1 votes:

Lsherm: Notabunny: badhatharry: They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.

Nobody is forced to join a union.

No, but in a closed shop you're forced to pay for the union. Don't pretend otherwise.


good thing closed shops are illegal under Taft-Hartley and have been since 1948.
2012-12-13 01:41:14 PM
1 votes:

Tyee: No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.


you're right, and it's a good things that's not the case today then, is it?

Why do I bet you think that the "Healthy Forests Act" was about planting trees and the Department of Defense has never started a war before?
2012-12-13 11:15:36 AM
1 votes:

StreetlightInTheGhetto: LordJiro: Because if the unions go, big business will have no opposition in this country. And all the progress we've made will be rolled back in no time.

It's been on the path for awhile, honestly. Granted, I'm not the happiest with the larger unions, haven't been for quite some time (although the smaller ones I've interacted with I've generally always come away with a positive experience). But they've been desperately clinging to the side of the boat to keep from drowning for awhile. And it's quite easy to see how workers have already been suffering because of it - I can't count the number of people I've met working incredibly insane hours for the privilege of not losing their job.

Contrast this to America's Hat:

[www.washingtonpost.com image 769x466] 

Of course, motherf--king health care isn't an issue on the negotiating table for Canadian unions.


We actually have a saying up here. "Companies that have unions deserve them." Generally the places that unions flourish are places that would love to treat their workers badly. And government for some reason. The provincial/federal governments up here can be a little inefficient at times. The Father in law works with the BC government trying to streamline stuff, not so much firing people, but moving the lady who double checks the computer's adding (It used to make sense when the computer was just another person, but they forgot to get rid of the position when they went digital) into doing something useful.
2012-12-13 10:19:54 AM
1 votes:

Raharu: BeesNuts: You'll get over it.

He won't actually.

Hes either a racist bigot, grasping at straws with no desire to change.

or

He's a paid shill.


Meh. He'll tone it down or he'll be summarily ignored, then he'll retire that jersey and trot out the next one.

Meanwhile, it's entirely possible that he gives himself an aneurism trying to work himself into a forthy enough frenzy to crank the shiathose the way he did in this thread.

/If somebody pays him for this, they are bad with money.
2012-12-13 10:01:21 AM
1 votes:

Durga: I just want to say this as a concerned Canadian who frequents the politics tab.

What the fark is going on down there? Did half your country wake up retarded sometime around 2010?


Amazingly, some prick Aussie actually had a lot to do with the country's shift to the hard right. Add that to a lot of Southerners pissed off about a black president, and you see how things got so insane here.
2012-12-13 09:53:04 AM
1 votes:

beta_plus: Muk_Man: beta_plus: Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"

I know you're a troll. But honestly, you're saying your teachers are bad, so let's kill their unions so they can't get good pay and therefore attract intelligent people to the position(some people are altruistic, but a solid pay will draw other people). Yes there are other problems with the US system, but unions aren't necessarily the problem. We have them in Canada and our schools perform quite well... I'd love to hear some educational reform policy you think would help.

American leftists are assholes who don't blink an eye at defending child rapists (see LA County & Penn State). If the violence of the protest didn't show you that directly, I'm not sure what will. Canadian leftists are not assholes and can therefore be trusted. It's as simple as that. If you have a way of "legislating away the assholeness of the American Left", I'm all ears.


Still struggling to work your head around a center right nation electing a socialist kenyan to the whitehouse *twice*, huh?

You'll get over it.
2012-12-13 09:50:54 AM
1 votes:
Everyone I like deserves to be well compensated in their professions.

Everyone I dislike should work for free.

Did I get that right?
2012-12-13 09:21:29 AM
1 votes:

dr_blasto: The Voice of Doom: Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know.

Teachers can reduce the number of times firefighters and police officers have to do those things - besides reducing the things "most of us never know".


The real difference (besides "teachurs be libruls!") is the immediate, obvious feedback:
With cuts to firefighters and police, people might get hurt NOW. There'll be media attention and you'll get the blame.

But when society and economy go slowly down the shiatter, it's less obvious and people won't make a direct connection (especially if they had bad teachers) with education.
And should the shiat finally hit the fan, it'll be somebody else's problem because by then you'll have been out of office for some time. 


/related theory: "Fark you, I got mine!" means you have stuff you might be afraid to losing. And the people protecting your stuff are..?

The real reason is that police and firefighter unions tend to contribute more to Republicans.


And they tend to ne male-dominated. Can't have those uppity women in the teachers unions speaking up or anything, can we?
2012-12-13 08:27:58 AM
1 votes:

themindiswatching: The GOP plan for government:

1. Cut money to a service.
2. Service becomes so crappy that it's better to go private.
3. GOP now has an excuse to kill it entirely.
4. Repeat.

/how long until we kill public schools entirely?


See Delaware.
2012-12-13 08:10:22 AM
1 votes:
so as long as your profession is deemed important enough right to work law don't apply?

it makes no sense. They're obviously just exempting cops and firefighters to avoid having to fight with them publicly. If this were the right thing to do why wouldn't it be right for cops and firemen?



if attracting businesses is the goal weakening unions wont be enough, we're competing directly with china where wages are something like 31 cents an hour and safety/environmental concerns aren't.

lets really get those jobs for Michigan and become a third world sweatshop state. Go Michigan!
2012-12-13 07:57:01 AM
1 votes:

Lsherm: Guntram Shatterhand: And considering the Republican base holds nothing dear (as shown by throwing their Christianity away to vote for a Mormon),

[img827.imageshack.us image 455x325]

+1 for an insanely bigoted statement that will probably be ignored.


Maybe was a troll, but can be considered seriously. Baptists and Evangelicals in the South consider Mormons to be heretics. But they voted for him anyway because he wasn't the incumbent (re: black man).
2012-12-13 05:26:14 AM
1 votes:

Lsherm: Some parents are using the public school system as the world's most expensive babysitter.


No, no... that would be prison.
2012-12-13 03:55:15 AM
1 votes:
Michigan right-to work violence: Is President Obama fomenting blood in the streets?

Damn he's on to us. Surprise! Your heads first on the block, farker.



If I were a teacher in Wisconsin I would be looking for an out of state position soooo fast...

Let the farkers home school their kids.
2012-12-13 03:28:29 AM
1 votes:

Now That's What I Call a Taco!: As has been alluded to in this thread, this was done to hit their political opponents and nothing else. Any talk about "principles" is just marketing.

If unions supported the GOP, they'd be demanding we all join the Teamsters.


And yet, the idea of not hurting people who work for a living doesn't seem to cross the minds of any Republican.
2012-12-13 03:00:34 AM
1 votes:

Absolut Height Advantage: It's the same reason the state police union was the only union exempt in Wisconsin's dismantling of collective bargaining: IN CASE OF PUBLIC UPRISING, THE RICH ARE STILL PROTECTED BY THE POLICE THEY ESSENTIALLY PURCHASED, and I guess in this case they also wanted the fires set to their homes by the lynch mobs put out


www.wired.com

Fun fact: they donate almost exclusively to Republican politicians. And they have better gear than the cops.
2012-12-13 02:43:40 AM
1 votes:
Because AFP is politically conservative, they are often targets for leftist violence.

Please site three examples to prove "often"
2012-12-13 02:23:32 AM
1 votes:

L.D. Ablo: Cops are vital?

No, they're the armed division of government revenue collection.


So...they ARE vital. For keeping the poors in line. Hey, a guy who is driving a million-dollar Ferrari could give a fark about a $200 traffic ticket. But the poor guy? Well, that WAS his grocery budget for the month...
2012-12-13 02:22:17 AM
1 votes:
Mentat: The GOP doesn't give a fark about democracy. All of this - Citizen's United, voter ID laws, anti-abortion laws, assaults on ACORN and Planned Parenthood - is nothing more than a naked power grab on a scale that I haven't seen in my lifetime.



---------------------------------


It makes it hard, watching what they will do when they can get away with it in public, just how random events like the high oil prices of the 2000s, the Wall St. collapse and the banking crisis really were.

If they are showing themselves to be evil in public now, what the hell have they been up to in private?

It just sounds like them to see that McCain/Palin was going down hard and pull the plug on the economy so the next guy gets blamed. These disaster capitalists thrive on chaos and uncertainty anyways anymore, there was no downshot in it, only more money. Just like 9/11, the recession gives them mountains of factually bankrupt rhetoric and bumper sticker fodder to ram home anything they want. And all they have to tell their base is that it is good for the economy, no more explanation needed.

And you just watch, in ten years, when the smoke is cleared, I'll bet you have trouble finding many people who will admit to having supported these anti-American corporate goons.
2012-12-13 02:02:55 AM
1 votes:

Mentat: Notabunny: Destroying unions may be the hill Republicans choose to fight and die on. It has nothing to do with wages, or benefits, or people, or jobs, or anything like that. It's the Republicans trying to eliminate the main revenue stream to Democrats. Nothing more than that.

No, that's just a benefit. It's about removing all barriers to profit for the wealthy business owners. Pretty much every aspect of Republican ideology boils down to that.


From what I heard, it took some prodding, but eventually Henry Ford realized that paying his workers enough where they could afford the cars they were building was a good thing. Apparently that sort of "long term" thinking is now unheard of.
2012-12-13 02:00:45 AM
1 votes:

LordJiro: And that is the REAL point of right-to-work, in a nutshell. Republicans want to hurt unions. Unions (with a few exceptions) tend to back Democrats, and they stand in the way of executives who want to fark over the workers for profit.

The base are merely greedy; they want the benefits of a union without sacrificing anything. But they're shortsighted and/or ignorant; they don't realize what life was like before strong labor unions, and/or they don't realize how fast things will snap back if/when unions are sufficiently weakened.


This is a big problem in our society in general. Hell, just look at our infrastructure (especially non visible infrastructure like sewer lines). Plan ahead for the future, ha.

I've been in exactly one union in my life, and I've been working since I was 14, constantly since I was 18. But I have the benefit of knowing my family's (admittedly pretty short) history in the USA, and I have pictures of the fantastic worker protections my grandfather had while building skyscrapers in Detroit (yeah, we have 'em) in the 20s.

That said, the larger unions especially haven't been doing a very good job at PR or organizing (either of their members, potential members, or the public in general toward their viewpoints). It wasn't great in 08, and it isn't that great now although there have been some strides. I'll be the first to admit when unions just don't work - I've seen it firsthand. Like any hierarchy, bubble of yes men and being large enough to miss the day to day concerns of your population. But unions "not working" are still better than absolutely no protection, which is the end game of RTW.

And even though when I was in a union, my rep was half a country away (long story) and overworked to the point we couldn't get the help we needed... the fact that I had union protection to begin with kept me from getting unjustly fired. At that job "full union" only kicked in after a year, and I saw half a dozen of my coworkers let go for completely BS reasons (blatantly so) with no recourse because the management had a vendetta. I got to leave on my own accord because they needed an actual reason to fire me, instead of things like "finished work a half hour early and skipped lunch anyway, so bought a trainee who wasn't going to make it a hamburger during the last 15 minutes of the work day ". That was an actual 'reason' my friend got fired. A friend who was in the lowest levels of management and who tried to help us got ratted out and fired. Never proven accusations of a single inappropriate comment got another friend/coworker fired.

They made up a $3 discrepancy (yep, $3) as a reason to put me on suspension. Of course, I got a job offer an hour before and got to incredibly happily quit before that actually happened. If I hadn't had the smallest semblance of the union at my back, I would have been fired for if not a $3 discrepancy than something else even stupider weeks or months before. They fired other people who didn't for far less.
2012-12-13 01:58:53 AM
1 votes:

Notabunny: Destroying unions may be the hill Republicans choose to fight and die on. It has nothing to do with wages, or benefits, or people, or jobs, or anything like that. It's the Republicans trying to eliminate the main revenue stream to Democrats. Nothing more than that.


No, that's just a benefit. It's about removing all barriers to profit for the wealthy business owners. Pretty much every aspect of Republican ideology boils down to that.
2012-12-13 01:57:25 AM
1 votes:

LordJiro: And that is the REAL point of right-to-work, in a nutshell. Republicans want to hurt unions. Unions (with a few exceptions) tend to back Democrats, and they stand in the way of executives who want to fark over the workers for profit.

The base are merely greedy; they want the benefits of a union without sacrificing anything. But they're shortsighted and/or ignorant; they don't realize what life was like before strong labor unions, and/or they don't realize how fast things will snap back if/when unions are sufficiently weakened.


It's ok, we have LAWS now. It's not like we have to fight to keep them or anything.
2012-12-13 01:47:34 AM
1 votes:

Insatiable Jesus: And they're not wasting any time. The speed with which they are knocking down labor law that many Americans fought and died for is scary.


They know they only have a narrow window of opportunity. 2010 not only gave them a strong foothold in the Rust Belt but also let them gerrymander the fark out of congressional and state districts. They already see the public turning against them, so they are going to ram through as much bullshiat as they can. Rachel Maddow was talking today about how Snyder was praising a "telemedicine" law that was passed in Michigan a few years ago. Now, the state GOP is trying to force through a law banning telemedicine for state abortion clinics.

The GOP doesn't give a fark about democracy. All of this - Citizen's United, voter ID laws, anti-abortion laws, assaults on ACORN and Planned Parenthood - is nothing more than a naked power grab on a scale that I haven't seen in my lifetime.
2012-12-13 01:43:15 AM
1 votes:

StreetlightInTheGhetto: I think Snyder will probably win a second term (kinda felt that way anyway, and Lessenberry has pushed me more firmly in that camp) but before this crap I was the devil's advocate with my coworker that hated him. Yeah, he did sign some crappy legislation, yeah, I can see how you don't agree with this or that. But compared to Walker (or Engler, for that matter) he was okay and not blatantly bought out. Plus he fought against Matty Moroun, which gave Synder an incredible amount of goodwill in my book.

Which is now gone. It would have been different if he hadn't been - not anti Right To Work, but pro Let's Not Pass Right To Work And Work To Unite The State Instead - for a long while. Whatever reasons he's given for the about-face, absolutely none of them so far have won me over.

And if the Republicans were dead set on passing this and Snyder for whatever reason had changed his opinion and felt it was important, or maybe felt that he couldn't stop the momentum so might as well sign it, there were far better ways to do it. People I know who were iffy on whether Right To Work was a good thing or not are still blown away by how quickly and not-above-board it was passed here. And the (eh, five or so) I've talked to since it was a done deal, to varying degrees have all mentioned that it's left a bitter taste in their mouth - most wanted an honest debate and consideration time about the pros and cons of it. It's been hovering on the edges as a possibility since the Republicans have controlled the Legislature and the Executive branches, but the speed at which this went through may have pissed off more people than they intended. Of course, the unions will be crippled in their ability to use that to fight against it, but, you know, whatever.



And that is the REAL point of right-to-work, in a nutshell. Republicans want to hurt unions. Unions (with a few exceptions) tend to back Democrats, and they stand in the way of executives who want to fark over the workers for profit.

The base are merely greedy; they want the benefits of a union without sacrificing anything. But they're shortsighted and/or ignorant; they don't realize what life was like before strong labor unions, and/or they don't realize how fast things will snap back if/when unions are sufficiently weakened.
2012-12-13 01:35:52 AM
1 votes:

Lsherm: LordJiro: Lsherm: Notabunny: badhatharry: They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.

Nobody is forced to join a union.

No, but in a closed shop you're forced to pay for the union. Don't pretend otherwise.

And who's forcing you to work at a closed shop? Answer: Nobody. You CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities.

Fair enough, I guess that's why they keep disappearing.

Hold on to the past, it's a good way of moving towards the future.


You'd better pray unions don't disappear. Unless, of course, you thought the Industrial revolution seemed like a fun time. Or maybe you read about feudal Europe, and thought being a serf sounded awesome? Maybe it's simpler...you just look at China, and say "Hey, I want to work there, but immigrating is too much of a pain in the ass!"

Because if the unions go, big business will have no opposition in this country. And all the progress we've made will be rolled back in no time.
2012-12-13 01:35:44 AM
1 votes:

LordJiro: And who's forcing you to work at a closed shop? Answer: Nobody. You CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities.


A Republican? Accept responsibilities? Ahahahaha, ohh... Nice one, I needed that.
2012-12-13 01:34:56 AM
1 votes:

Lsherm: LordJiro: Lsherm: Notabunny: badhatharry: They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.

Nobody is forced to join a union.

No, but in a closed shop you're forced to pay for the union. Don't pretend otherwise.

And who's forcing you to work at a closed shop? Answer: Nobody. You CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities.

Fair enough, I guess that's why they keep disappearing.

Hold on to the past, it's a good way of moving towards the future.


Then you guess wrong.
2012-12-13 01:29:52 AM
1 votes:

Lsherm: Notabunny: badhatharry: They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.

Nobody is forced to join a union.

No, but in a closed shop you're forced to pay for the union. Don't pretend otherwise.


And who's forcing you to work at a closed shop? Answer: Nobody. You CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities.
2012-12-13 01:08:13 AM
1 votes:

LargeCanine: Ahem. "Projection"


I don't think you understand what that word means.
2012-12-13 01:05:33 AM
1 votes:
Fista-Phobia: The legislation exempts firefighters and police officers but not schoolteachers. This is because firefighters and police officers are vital to society. Teachers are not. Let them scream and holler. That's all they ever do anyway. Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know. These people risk death every day. If they strike, society risks breaking down.

[www.progressohio.org image 400x384]



---------------------------

I think the long term calamity of not educating our kids is far worse than whatever you are implying would happen if police and firemen got paid like any other worker should be paid, according to you.

Some animals are more equal than others.
2012-12-13 12:39:40 AM
1 votes:

LargeCanine: Fart_Machine: LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?

Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.

You are right. The only ones using force are the unions.


Nobody's stopping you from finding a job at a workplace without a union. But if you CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities that come with it. If you just want the benefits and wages the unions negotiate for without actually working for them, you're...well, a typical lazy, entitled Republican.

Bet you whine about poor people being 'leeches', too.
2012-12-12 11:54:14 PM
1 votes:
L.D. Ablo: They prey on the profitable low-hanging fruit of people who drive too fast. Then they try to squirm out of taking police reports from people who are victims of crime. Always some horseshiat about it being a "ivil matter" or "not in their jurisdiction."



-----------------------


I ran into that "civil matter" bullshiat a few months ago. My ex-wife came into my home when she knew I was out and had one of the kids let her in, and a week later went into my father's home, in another city even. Cash, cell phones, passport and legal papers gone between the two incidents. Both PDs told me "civil matter" even though I had a divorce decree in hand showing that there was no longer any civil matter.

I'm sure that this civil matter works for black males in GA too, right?

Farking lazy assed bullies is all they are.
2012-12-12 09:50:01 PM
1 votes:
Education in the youth is an investment in the future tax base.

It's human capitalism.
2012-12-12 08:55:16 PM
1 votes:

phritz: People at my last job biatched about $30 a month in union dues. We would always point out that, at a direct result of the last negotiating cycle, they were taking home about $200 a month more than they would have otherwise, plus their kids were finally covered in the health plan. They still biatched about the $30.

Moral: when the middle class finally dies, it will kind of deserve it.



Not surprising... These are the same d-bags who piss and moan about taxes. They're self-centered jackholes who can't see past the end of their noses.

If you -gave- these people a lottery ticket that you paid for, just for shiats and grins, with a handshake deal to kick you back 10% if they won... you can bet your sweet ass that if that ticket hit the jackpot, they'd be formulating a rationale for reneging before the last number was announced.
d23 [TotalFark]
2012-12-12 08:37:16 PM
1 votes:

Cinaed: Police and Firefighters? Good for today.
Teachers? Good for tomorrow.


The GOP doesn't care about future concequences. They care about the extra $2 in their pocket right now, even if mean it will cost them $200 later.
2012-12-12 08:36:06 PM
1 votes:
I've got to stop teaching my students to be critical thinkers. That's what this douche wants. He's afraid of me. He's got every right to be.

/librul scum teacher
//farking union librul scum teacher
2012-12-12 08:25:47 PM
1 votes:

Nadie_AZ: zedster: GOP Logic:
Companies colluding - Good for business
Workers colluding - ZOMG SOCIALISM


We really are on our way to the Gilded Age take 2

On our way?


true, we are deep in it, it's not even Gilded, it needs a different title maybe the polished turd age
2012-12-12 08:23:16 PM
1 votes:

Peter von Nostrand: edmo: So if they're essential you make it illegal for them to strike thus who needs a union?

If the FD is a local of the IAFF they can't strike. Firefighters aren't a true union (it's International Association of Fire Fighters) since we don't have the power to strike. I would imagine PD is the same but I can't say that for certain


What the hell are you talking about? The IAFF is a union, regardless of the local chapters not being able to strike. It's a damn powerful lobbying organization too, which has resulted in the US having a crappy EMS system.
2012-12-12 08:21:07 PM
1 votes:

Tyee: No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.


Nobody is forcing anyone to join a union in most cases. But if you choose not to join, you still have to pay union dues as if you did. That is the issue in a nutshell. Michigan says that arrangement is not fair...that if you pay money you should get something in return. What to non-union members get in return for those payments? Nada. Oh sure, the union is quick to point out that they get the job. But the job is ultimately not the union's to give, it is the employer's. So the question of what the non-union worker gets from the union is still "nothing".

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-union. Not at all! But I do think the one point this jumble-headed blogger makes correctly is that the union model is very badly broken. It has been for a long time, and it needs to be fixed very soon or unions will get shut down completely. The world is a vastly different place than it was 50 years ago, and the union model which worked for the benefit of the worker so well then is now almost completely counter-productive, and in some cases directly destructive. There needs to be union reform and total re-evaluation of its foundational principles, goals, and methodologies. They need to evolve, and quickly, if they want to be a part of the future in this country. If they don't, their days are numbered.
Ant
2012-12-12 08:18:28 PM
1 votes:

China White Tea: I feel like people should be allowed to unionize and collectively bargain over things like hours and compensation and benefits, if they so desire.

I also feel like, if someone does not want to be a part of a union, they should, in no way, be barred from getting a job on that basis alone.

I almost never see this position represented in conversations about unions, and since I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the subject, I assume I am missing something that makes it an unreasonable position... so could someone tell me what that is?


So much for collective bargaining if people can just opt out of the union and undercut the union workers.
2012-12-12 08:17:28 PM
1 votes:
Welcome to what we have in Wisconsin!! You voted them in...suffer.
2012-12-12 08:14:01 PM
1 votes:

China White Tea: I feel like people should be allowed to unionize and collectively bargain over things like hours and compensation and benefits, if they so desire.

I also feel like, if someone does not want to be a part of a union, they should, in no way, be barred from getting a job on that basis alone.

I almost never see this position represented in conversations about unions, and since I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the subject, I assume I am missing something that makes it an unreasonable position... so could someone tell me what that is?


Why should labor and trade unions have prior restraints on contracting? Do you feel that it is unfair for companies to sign exclusive contracts for other sorts of supplies? Should the government step in with Right to Steel laws that hobble companies' ability to negotiate prices for iron and coke?
2012-12-12 08:12:45 PM
1 votes:

Tyee: No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.


You're not forced to be employed.

Nor are you forced to spew nonsense in a thread, but something must be compelling you anyway. A few ounces of Reagan's portrait not yet covered in jizz, perhaps?
2012-12-12 08:08:08 PM
1 votes:

Mentat: And if that means the company is forced to give them a good package in order to compete with the union, that's fine. But if the company screws them over because they have no leverage, well, that's how it goes.


see...i have zero problem with this approach.
2012-12-12 08:04:26 PM
1 votes:

Tyee: No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.


How about if you're voluntarily accepting pay and benefits that were negotiated by a union? 

And the history of police and fire departments in this country is fairly interesting.
2012-12-12 08:02:54 PM
1 votes:
I feel like people should be allowed to unionize and collectively bargain over things like hours and compensation and benefits, if they so desire.

I also feel like, if someone does not want to be a part of a union, they should, in no way, be barred from getting a job on that basis alone.

I almost never see this position represented in conversations about unions, and since I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the subject, I assume I am missing something that makes it an unreasonable position... so could someone tell me what that is?
2012-12-12 07:56:19 PM
1 votes:
This is why we can't have nice things.
2012-12-12 07:54:31 PM
1 votes:

Somacandra: FTFA: If every public schoolteacher quit tomorrow, private schools, charter schools, and home-schooling would pick up the slack.

Yes, all of us will up and quit our jobs and suddenly become qualified primary and secondary teachers or just stay home and home-school. Its not like we need our jobs to pay actual bills.


Not to mention that this stupid argument applies as much to cops and firefighters as it does to teachers: "If every policeman in the country quit tomorrow, private security firms would pick up the slack!"
2012-12-12 07:52:28 PM
1 votes:

clambam: I wouldn't mind if these people ran on a platform of "If elected, I will bust the unions," then got elected and busted the unions. That would be giving people what they wanted. It just seems that they're all running on some completely different platform, then when they get into power do the ol' bait and switch and pursue some completely different agenda. Had George Bush run on a platform of "If elected, I will invade Iraq," he never would have gotten elected (come to think of it...). But he stated on numerous occasions during the campaign that he "wasn't interested in nation-building" and then proceeded to do precisely that. How can we ever trust the repub Party again? They lie preferentially. Onto the ashbin of history with them.


They ran on "JOBS, JOBS, JOBS"
2012-12-12 07:12:53 PM
1 votes:
i391.photobucket.com
2012-12-12 06:52:38 PM
1 votes:
Weapons grade derp there.

Oh, and it's green now. This should be fun.
2012-12-12 06:20:54 PM
1 votes:

Runs_With_Scissors_: The purpose of the legislation is to save schoolteachers and the rest of the left from themselves. Right-to-work legislation in neighboring states like Indiana has strengthened their economies at Michigan's expense. Foreign investors have zero interest doing business in anti-business slums. Governor Snyder wants to save Michigan from collapse.

Fark. You.

Just... Fark you.


It's a race to the bottom.
2012-12-12 05:38:24 PM
1 votes:

Diogenes: hot-teacher.jpg


i said republican.
2012-12-12 05:33:25 PM
1 votes:
The Voice of Doom
..afraid to losing.


Bipartisan solution for "afraid of losing" vs "afraid to lose"
2012-12-12 05:08:25 PM
1 votes:
FTFA: If every public schoolteacher quit tomorrow, private schools, charter schools, and home-schooling would pick up the slack.

Yes, all of us will up and quit our jobs and suddenly become qualified primary and secondary teachers or just stay home and home-school. Its not like we need our jobs to pay actual bills.
2012-12-12 05:07:24 PM
1 votes:

Diogenes: It's conceivable.


img138.imageshack.us
2012-12-12 05:03:49 PM
1 votes:
FTFA: "Imagine how liberals would react if dues were used to fund AFP or other conservative causes. They would call this stealing, which it is."

When people mooch off the benefits of hard-earned collective bargaining agreements unions work for without contributing to their creation, that would be called stealing, which it is.

/Oh, and your Moonie blog sucks. Its pure polemic with no actual reasoning.
2012-12-12 04:24:35 PM
1 votes:

FlashHarry: BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?

actually, it's because cops and firefighters are gay icons. do you think your average bible-thumping michigan republican is going to rub one out to thoughts of a school teacher?


www.thearchnemesis.com

marvelousmisadventures.typepad.com 

It's conceivable.
2012-12-12 04:19:27 PM
1 votes:
This is a terrible blog. OOGA BOOGA liberals and their union armies are gonna destroy you!
2012-12-12 04:18:14 PM
1 votes:

BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?


actually, it's because cops and firefighters are gay icons. do you think your average bible-thumping michigan republican is going to rub one out to thoughts of a school teacher?
2012-12-12 04:11:40 PM
1 votes:
This guy is tool.

@TYGRRRREXPRESS

Tygrrrr Express--Author of Ideological Bigotry, Ideological Violence and Ideological Idiocy. Lover of football, finance, and Republican Jewish brunettes.

#twitterdouche
 
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