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(Washington Times)   "The legislation (in MI) exempts firefighters and police officers but not schoolteachers. This is because firefighters and police officers are vital to society. Teachers are not"   (communities.washingtontimes.com ) divider line 237
    More: Dumbass, President Obama, police officers, Michigan, Governor of Michigan, firefighters, society, legislation, Americans for Prosperity  
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3551 clicks; posted to Politics » on 12 Dec 2012 at 7:34 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-12 01:13:51 PM  
Wow, that article has a troll-tastic headline, and based on the author's bio, I'm sure he'd be a blast at parties. Also, he may want to try to make his book titles a little more varied.

Also, this gem: "Money was taken from their paychecks to fund political causes they vehemently detested." about his parents. So, it's bad when unions do it, but just fine when the company you works for gets tax breaks that you have to pick up the slack on while they lobby for more tax breaks or else they'll move jobs overseas. Alternatively, if you're say, anti-war, your taxes are still going to that war. But this doesn't occur to the author.
 
2012-12-12 01:27:31 PM  
Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?
 
2012-12-12 01:31:03 PM  

media.washtimes.com

Penis goes where?

 
2012-12-12 03:11:30 PM  
Oh this ought to be fun if it goes green
 
2012-12-12 03:19:57 PM  
Last time I checked, you needed at least a HS diploma to be a firefighter or police officer.
 
2012-12-12 03:55:50 PM  

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Last time I checked, you needed at least a HS diploma to be a firefighter or police officer.


Yeah, but not to write for the Moonie Times. Who's the idiot now, huh, smart guy?
 
2012-12-12 04:00:11 PM  
Hey, look! It's another blog from some guy!
 
2012-12-12 04:11:40 PM  
This guy is tool.

@TYGRRRREXPRESS

Tygrrrr Express--Author of Ideological Bigotry, Ideological Violence and Ideological Idiocy. Lover of football, finance, and Republican Jewish brunettes.

#twitterdouche
 
2012-12-12 04:12:58 PM  
This cannot possibly, seriously, be this guy's profile pic

media.washtimes.com

I refuse to accept that.
 
2012-12-12 04:18:14 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?


actually, it's because cops and firefighters are gay icons. do you think your average bible-thumping michigan republican is going to rub one out to thoughts of a school teacher?
 
2012-12-12 04:19:27 PM  
This is a terrible blog. OOGA BOOGA liberals and their union armies are gonna destroy you!
 
2012-12-12 04:24:35 PM  

FlashHarry: BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?

actually, it's because cops and firefighters are gay icons. do you think your average bible-thumping michigan republican is going to rub one out to thoughts of a school teacher?


www.thearchnemesis.com

marvelousmisadventures.typepad.com 

It's conceivable.
 
2012-12-12 04:40:54 PM  
1. If an article's headline asks a question that can be answered "no", don't bother writing the article.

2. There's no way that headline is a direct quote... oh, shiat. Alright, so the article headline is stupid and then the writer manages to double down in the body. Fantastic.
 
2012-12-12 04:50:53 PM  
Cops are vital?

No, they're the armed division of government revenue collection.

They prey on the profitable low-hanging fruit of people who drive too fast. Then they try to squirm out of taking police reports from people who are victims of crime. Always some horseshiat about it being a "ivil matter" or "not in their jurisdiction."

I don't have a problem with authority. I have a problem with lazy bumfarks who mostly collect money for the city council's fancy catered lunches.
 
2012-12-12 04:53:28 PM  
The GOP plan for government:

1. Cut money to a service.
2. Service becomes so crappy that it's better to go private.
3. GOP now has an excuse to kill it entirely.
4. Repeat.

/how long until we kill public schools entirely?
 
2012-12-12 04:57:24 PM  

sigdiamond2000: This cannot possibly, seriously, be this guy's profile pic

[media.washtimes.com image 120x120]

I refuse to accept that.


Oh, he's like pooh all right.
 
2012-12-12 05:03:49 PM  
FTFA: "Imagine how liberals would react if dues were used to fund AFP or other conservative causes. They would call this stealing, which it is."

When people mooch off the benefits of hard-earned collective bargaining agreements unions work for without contributing to their creation, that would be called stealing, which it is.

/Oh, and your Moonie blog sucks. Its pure polemic with no actual reasoning.
 
2012-12-12 05:07:24 PM  

Diogenes: It's conceivable.


img138.imageshack.us
 
2012-12-12 05:08:25 PM  
FTFA: If every public schoolteacher quit tomorrow, private schools, charter schools, and home-schooling would pick up the slack.

Yes, all of us will up and quit our jobs and suddenly become qualified primary and secondary teachers or just stay home and home-school. Its not like we need our jobs to pay actual bills.
 
2012-12-12 05:29:25 PM  
Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know.

Teachers can reduce the number of times firefighters and police officers have to do those things - besides reducing the things "most of us never know".


The real difference (besides "teachurs be libruls!") is the immediate, obvious feedback:
With cuts to firefighters and police, people might get hurt NOW. There'll be media attention and you'll get the blame.

But when society and economy go slowly down the shiatter, it's less obvious and people won't make a direct connection (especially if they had bad teachers) with education.
And should the shiat finally hit the fan, it'll be somebody else's problem because by then you'll have been out of office for some time. 


/related theory: "Fark you, I got mine!" means you have stuff you might be afraid to losing. And the people protecting your stuff are..?
 
2012-12-12 05:33:25 PM  
The Voice of Doom
..afraid to losing.


Bipartisan solution for "afraid of losing" vs "afraid to lose"
 
2012-12-12 05:38:06 PM  

The Voice of Doom: Teachers can reduce the number of times firefighters and police officers have to do those things - besides reducing the things "most of us never know".


Teachers are dangerous because they teach poor people that they are equal to rich and powerful people- and sometimes how they themselves can become rich and powerful. That is no good. Can't have that. Next thing you know, we've a "poor" person in the White House. We need a hierarchical society where the bettors rule the lessors. And there are far more lessors than bettors. This can be controlled with more police, more prisons, lower wages, etc.
 
2012-12-12 05:38:24 PM  

Diogenes: hot-teacher.jpg


i said republican.
 
2012-12-12 05:48:15 PM  

timujin: 1. If an article's headline asks a question that can be answered "no", don't bother writing the article.


Headlines that can be answered by "no" -- a good idea?

 
2012-12-12 05:59:09 PM  
The purpose of the legislation is to save schoolteachers and the rest of the left from themselves. Right-to-work legislation in neighboring states like Indiana has strengthened their economies at Michigan's expense. Foreign investors have zero interest doing business in anti-business slums. Governor Snyder wants to save Michigan from collapse.

Fark. You.

Just... Fark you.
 
2012-12-12 06:02:37 PM  
So if they're essential you make it illegal for them to strike thus who needs a union?
 
2012-12-12 06:10:59 PM  
I love the double talk on this:

It's good for the employees!!!

Oh, But we aren't doing it for cops or firefighters because we don't want to hurt them because they are important.


So which is it?
 
2012-12-12 06:11:28 PM  

The Voice of Doom: Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know.

Teachers can reduce the number of times firefighters and police officers have to do those things - besides reducing the things "most of us never know".


The real difference (besides "teachurs be libruls!") is the immediate, obvious feedback:
With cuts to firefighters and police, people might get hurt NOW. There'll be media attention and you'll get the blame.

But when society and economy go slowly down the shiatter, it's less obvious and people won't make a direct connection (especially if they had bad teachers) with education.
And should the shiat finally hit the fan, it'll be somebody else's problem because by then you'll have been out of office for some time. 


/related theory: "Fark you, I got mine!" means you have stuff you might be afraid to losing. And the people protecting your stuff are..?


The real reason is that police and firefighter unions tend to contribute more to Republicans.
 
2012-12-12 06:14:24 PM  

edmo: So if they're essential you make it illegal for them to strike thus who needs a union?


If the FD is a local of the IAFF they can't strike. Firefighters aren't a true union (it's International Association of Fire Fighters) since we don't have the power to strike. I would imagine PD is the same but I can't say that for certain
 
2012-12-12 06:16:34 PM  

sigdiamond2000: This cannot possibly, seriously, be this guy's profile pic

[media.washtimes.com image 120x120]

I refuse to accept that.


This is begging for a "Penis goes where?" caption
 
2012-12-12 06:18:37 PM  
Of course teachers aren't vital. If we all homeschooled like Jesus tells us to in the Bible, then society would be perfect, the budget would be balanced, dogs would live with cats, and Ron Paul would be President for the next 28 years straight.
 
2012-12-12 06:20:54 PM  

Runs_With_Scissors_: The purpose of the legislation is to save schoolteachers and the rest of the left from themselves. Right-to-work legislation in neighboring states like Indiana has strengthened their economies at Michigan's expense. Foreign investors have zero interest doing business in anti-business slums. Governor Snyder wants to save Michigan from collapse.

Fark. You.

Just... Fark you.


It's a race to the bottom.
 
2012-12-12 06:23:31 PM  
I love it when people use the term "liberal" as a dirty word. It makes me feel naughty. Say it again, glorified blogger. Tell me I've been bad.

/sees picture

Erm. Nevermind.
 
2012-12-12 06:52:38 PM  
Weapons grade derp there.

Oh, and it's green now. This should be fun.
 
2012-12-12 07:12:53 PM  
i391.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-12 07:21:38 PM  
a hypothetical broad interpretation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act-an interpretation that could make it illegal for employees to violate their companies' computer policies.

First part of sentence: yeah, exactly.

Second part: even if broad hypothetical became fruition.. I'd still be cool at my company.

/I got mine, fark you, biatches!
 
2012-12-12 07:23:36 PM  

BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?


It's the same divide and conquer strategy Walker tried in Wisconsin. Set the unions against each other, take out the public sector unions, take out the industrial unions, and then take out the police and firefighter unions last when there's no one left to support them.
 
2012-12-12 07:31:14 PM  
Whoops, wrong thread....

:/
 
2012-12-12 07:42:38 PM  
The legislation exempts firefighters and police officers but not schoolteachers. This is because firefighters and police officers are vital to society. Teachers are not. Let them scream and holler. That's all they ever do anyway. Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know.

Police officers see skin colors most of us can't even imagine.
 
2012-12-12 07:44:46 PM  
farking assholes
 
2012-12-12 07:45:49 PM  

sigdiamond2000: This cannot possibly, seriously, be this guy's profile pic

[media.washtimes.com image 120x120]

I refuse to accept that.


It's not.

This is:

media.washtimes.com

He's a Fark fave.
 
2012-12-12 07:45:56 PM  
Cops and firefighters = men
Teachers = women
 
2012-12-12 07:47:05 PM  
It doesn't surprise me that a columnist for the Moonie Times hates teachers. You see, occasionally a teacher helps their students acheive the critical thinking skills needed to realize that something in the Washington Times is a pile of shiat.

And by "teacher" there, I mean kindergarden teachers.
 
2012-12-12 07:47:29 PM  
I wouldn't mind if these people ran on a platform of "If elected, I will bust the unions," then got elected and busted the unions. That would be giving people what they wanted. It just seems that they're all running on some completely different platform, then when they get into power do the ol' bait and switch and pursue some completely different agenda. Had George Bush run on a platform of "If elected, I will invade Iraq," he never would have gotten elected (come to think of it...). But he stated on numerous occasions during the campaign that he "wasn't interested in nation-building" and then proceeded to do precisely that. How can we ever trust the repub Party again? They lie preferentially. Onto the ashbin of history with them.
 
2012-12-12 07:47:55 PM  
So. I asked this idiot if he went to school. Be interesting to see what he says. I'll let you know if I get a response, and if so, what it is.
 
2012-12-12 07:49:21 PM  
Teachers are just as vital as cops.
Or at least as vital as daytime corrections officers - more of which you'll have to hire once you finally finish convincing people they can't afford to teach.
 
2012-12-12 07:52:28 PM  

clambam: I wouldn't mind if these people ran on a platform of "If elected, I will bust the unions," then got elected and busted the unions. That would be giving people what they wanted. It just seems that they're all running on some completely different platform, then when they get into power do the ol' bait and switch and pursue some completely different agenda. Had George Bush run on a platform of "If elected, I will invade Iraq," he never would have gotten elected (come to think of it...). But he stated on numerous occasions during the campaign that he "wasn't interested in nation-building" and then proceeded to do precisely that. How can we ever trust the repub Party again? They lie preferentially. Onto the ashbin of history with them.


They ran on "JOBS, JOBS, JOBS"
 
2012-12-12 07:54:31 PM  

Somacandra: FTFA: If every public schoolteacher quit tomorrow, private schools, charter schools, and home-schooling would pick up the slack.

Yes, all of us will up and quit our jobs and suddenly become qualified primary and secondary teachers or just stay home and home-school. Its not like we need our jobs to pay actual bills.


Not to mention that this stupid argument applies as much to cops and firefighters as it does to teachers: "If every policeman in the country quit tomorrow, private security firms would pick up the slack!"
 
2012-12-12 07:55:57 PM  

The Voice of Doom: Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know.

Teachers can reduce the number of times firefighters and police officers have to do those things - besides reducing the things "most of us never know".


The real difference (besides "teachurs be libruls!") is the immediate, obvious feedback:
With cuts to firefighters and police, people might get hurt NOW. There'll be media attention and you'll get the blame.

But when society and economy go slowly down the shiatter, it's less obvious and people won't make a direct connection (especially if they had bad teachers) with education.
And should the shiat finally hit the fan, it'll be somebody else's problem because by then you'll have been out of office for some time. 


/related theory: "Fark you, I got mine!" means you have stuff you might be afraid to losing. And the people protecting your stuff are..?


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ all of THIS and more
 
2012-12-12 07:56:19 PM  
This is why we can't have nice things.
 
2012-12-12 07:56:56 PM  
I think right about now would be a good time to open a Day Care Center in Wisconsin.
 
2012-12-12 07:57:05 PM  

ITGreen: Republican Jewish brunettes.


da fuq?

I hope that is like a snipe hunt
 
2012-12-12 07:57:19 PM  
allmansd:
Cops and firefighters = men
Teachers = women & liberals



FTFY
 
2012-12-12 07:59:55 PM  
No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.
 
2012-12-12 08:02:54 PM  
I feel like people should be allowed to unionize and collectively bargain over things like hours and compensation and benefits, if they so desire.

I also feel like, if someone does not want to be a part of a union, they should, in no way, be barred from getting a job on that basis alone.

I almost never see this position represented in conversations about unions, and since I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the subject, I assume I am missing something that makes it an unreasonable position... so could someone tell me what that is?
 
2012-12-12 08:04:26 PM  

Tyee: No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.


How about if you're voluntarily accepting pay and benefits that were negotiated by a union? 

And the history of police and fire departments in this country is fairly interesting.
 
2012-12-12 08:04:42 PM  

Tyee: No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.


I almost made a joke about you being in a Fark troll union, but you're so terrible at it I doubt you could ever be a paid troll.
 
2012-12-12 08:05:10 PM  

themindiswatching: The GOP plan for government:

1. Cut money to a service.
2. Service becomes so crappy that it's better to go private.
3. GOP now has an excuse to kill it entirely.

3b. corporate ALEC members with skin in the game 'recommend' a legislative draft
3c. pseudo public servants shuffle a couple words and table it as theirs
3d. officials show gratitude to ALEC members for exceptional public service


4. Repeat.

/how long until we kill public schools entirely?

 

ASAGoPP
 
2012-12-12 08:06:25 PM  

China White Tea: I assume I am missing something that makes it an unreasonable position... so could someone tell me what that is?


If one is not forced then the Unions lose power.
 
2012-12-12 08:06:51 PM  

China White Tea: I also feel like, if someone does not want to be a part of a union, they should, in no way, be barred from getting a job on that basis alone.


So why should they get the benefits of being in the union if they don't have to pay anything in? If they don't want to be in the union, fine, but they should then have to negotiate everything - pay, benefits, schedule - with the company themselves. And if that means the company is forced to give them a good package in order to compete with the union, that's fine. But if the company screws them over because they have no leverage, well, that's how it goes.
 
2012-12-12 08:08:08 PM  

Mentat: And if that means the company is forced to give them a good package in order to compete with the union, that's fine. But if the company screws them over because they have no leverage, well, that's how it goes.


see...i have zero problem with this approach.
 
2012-12-12 08:09:10 PM  
It's the same reason the state police union was the only union exempt in Wisconsin's dismantling of collective bargaining: IN CASE OF PUBLIC UPRISING, THE RICH ARE STILL PROTECTED BY THE POLICE THEY ESSENTIALLY PURCHASED, and I guess in this case they also wanted the fires set to their homes by the lynch mobs put out
 
2012-12-12 08:09:36 PM  

Biological Ali: Somacandra: FTFA: If every public schoolteacher quit tomorrow, private schools, charter schools, and home-schooling would pick up the slack.

Yes, all of us will up and quit our jobs and suddenly become qualified primary and secondary teachers or just stay home and home-school. Its not like we need our jobs to pay actual bills.

Not to mention that this stupid argument applies as much to cops and firefighters as it does to teachers: "If every policeman in the country quit tomorrow, private security firms would pick up the slack!"


Who told you the plan???
 
2012-12-12 08:12:45 PM  

Tyee: No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.


You're not forced to be employed.

Nor are you forced to spew nonsense in a thread, but something must be compelling you anyway. A few ounces of Reagan's portrait not yet covered in jizz, perhaps?
 
Ant
2012-12-12 08:13:36 PM  
I guess labor just needs to remind businesses about the good old days
www.davisenterprise.com
 
2012-12-12 08:13:57 PM  
GOP Logic:
Companies colluding - Good for business
Workers colluding - ZOMG SOCIALISM


We really are on our way to the Gilded Age take 2
 
2012-12-12 08:14:01 PM  

China White Tea: I feel like people should be allowed to unionize and collectively bargain over things like hours and compensation and benefits, if they so desire.

I also feel like, if someone does not want to be a part of a union, they should, in no way, be barred from getting a job on that basis alone.

I almost never see this position represented in conversations about unions, and since I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the subject, I assume I am missing something that makes it an unreasonable position... so could someone tell me what that is?


Why should labor and trade unions have prior restraints on contracting? Do you feel that it is unfair for companies to sign exclusive contracts for other sorts of supplies? Should the government step in with Right to Steel laws that hobble companies' ability to negotiate prices for iron and coke?
 
2012-12-12 08:14:29 PM  

China White Tea: I almost never see this position represented in conversations about unions, and since I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the subject, I assume I am missing something that makes it an unreasonable position... so could someone tell me what that is?


Free rider problem.
 
2012-12-12 08:14:55 PM  
FTFA If every public schoolteacher quit tomorrow, private schools, charter schools, and home-schooling would pick up the slack.

Well, except for the couple to few million special-needs kids born to parents who can't afford either high-priced schools or staying home, that private/charter schools don't want to touch with a 50-foot-pole. But, y'know, fark them. That's what Jesus would say.
 
2012-12-12 08:15:44 PM  

Mentat: BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?

It's the same divide and conquer strategy Walker tried in Wisconsin. Set the unions against each other, take out the public sector unions, take out the industrial unions, and then take out the police and firefighter unions last when there's no one left to support them.


First they came for the teachers union, and I didn't speak out because I'm not a teacher...
 
2012-12-12 08:16:25 PM  
One step closer to legalizing child and slave labor. That's their goal.
 
2012-12-12 08:17:28 PM  
Welcome to what we have in Wisconsin!! You voted them in...suffer.
 
Ant
2012-12-12 08:18:28 PM  

China White Tea: I feel like people should be allowed to unionize and collectively bargain over things like hours and compensation and benefits, if they so desire.

I also feel like, if someone does not want to be a part of a union, they should, in no way, be barred from getting a job on that basis alone.

I almost never see this position represented in conversations about unions, and since I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the subject, I assume I am missing something that makes it an unreasonable position... so could someone tell me what that is?


So much for collective bargaining if people can just opt out of the union and undercut the union workers.
 
2012-12-12 08:19:19 PM  
Its about choice.
 
2012-12-12 08:21:07 PM  

Tyee: No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.


Nobody is forcing anyone to join a union in most cases. But if you choose not to join, you still have to pay union dues as if you did. That is the issue in a nutshell. Michigan says that arrangement is not fair...that if you pay money you should get something in return. What to non-union members get in return for those payments? Nada. Oh sure, the union is quick to point out that they get the job. But the job is ultimately not the union's to give, it is the employer's. So the question of what the non-union worker gets from the union is still "nothing".

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-union. Not at all! But I do think the one point this jumble-headed blogger makes correctly is that the union model is very badly broken. It has been for a long time, and it needs to be fixed very soon or unions will get shut down completely. The world is a vastly different place than it was 50 years ago, and the union model which worked for the benefit of the worker so well then is now almost completely counter-productive, and in some cases directly destructive. There needs to be union reform and total re-evaluation of its foundational principles, goals, and methodologies. They need to evolve, and quickly, if they want to be a part of the future in this country. If they don't, their days are numbered.
 
2012-12-12 08:22:12 PM  
Police and Firefighters? Good for today.
Teachers? Good for tomorrow.
 
2012-12-12 08:22:51 PM  

zedster: GOP Logic:
Companies colluding - Good for business
Workers colluding - ZOMG SOCIALISM


We really are on our way to the Gilded Age take 2


On our way?
 
2012-12-12 08:23:16 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: edmo: So if they're essential you make it illegal for them to strike thus who needs a union?

If the FD is a local of the IAFF they can't strike. Firefighters aren't a true union (it's International Association of Fire Fighters) since we don't have the power to strike. I would imagine PD is the same but I can't say that for certain


What the hell are you talking about? The IAFF is a union, regardless of the local chapters not being able to strike. It's a damn powerful lobbying organization too, which has resulted in the US having a crappy EMS system.
 
2012-12-12 08:25:14 PM  

Balchinian: Tyee: No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.

Nobody is forcing anyone to join a union in most cases. But if you choose not to join, you still have to pay union dues as if you did. That is the issue in a nutshell. Michigan says that arrangement is not fair...that if you pay money you should get something in return. What to non-union members get in return for those payments? Nada. Oh sure, the union is quick to point out that they get the job. But the job is ultimately not the union's to give, it is the employer's. So the question of what the non-union worker gets from the union is still "nothing".

Don't get me wrong, I am not anti-union. Not at all! But I do think the one point this jumble-headed blogger makes correctly is that the union model is very badly broken. It has been for a long time, and it needs to be fixed very soon or unions will get shut down completely. The world is a vastly different place than it was 50 years ago, and the union model which worked for the benefit of the worker so well then is now almost completely counter-productive, and in some cases directly destructive. There needs to be union reform and total re-evaluation of its foundational principles, goals, and methodologies. They need to evolve, and quickly, if they want to be a part of the future in this country. If they don't, their days are numbered.


Well for starters they get better wages, benefits, healthcare, and pensions than they would have gotten if they had to negotiate the job in a vacuum. It is possible that they could currently negotiate for something on par now that the unions have done all the heavy lifting, but if the employee had to negotiate without the prior union negotiations then they would get nothing close to what can get through a union.
 
2012-12-12 08:25:44 PM  

Balchinian: What to non-union members get in return for those payments? Nada. Oh sure, the union is quick to point out that they get the job. But the job is ultimately not the union's to give, it is the employer's. So the question of what the non-union worker gets from the union is still "nothing".


Nothing except the hard work of negotiating the pay and benefits that your free rider is now benefiting from.
 
2012-12-12 08:25:47 PM  

Nadie_AZ: zedster: GOP Logic:
Companies colluding - Good for business
Workers colluding - ZOMG SOCIALISM


We really are on our way to the Gilded Age take 2

On our way?


true, we are deep in it, it's not even Gilded, it needs a different title maybe the polished turd age
 
2012-12-12 08:26:23 PM  
As has been alluded to in this thread, this was done to hit their political opponents and nothing else. Any talk about "principles" is just marketing.

If unions supported the GOP, they'd be demanding we all join the Teamsters.
 
2012-12-12 08:28:56 PM  
Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom? Some people are too comfortable coercing others, and are sanctimonious about it.
 
2012-12-12 08:30:05 PM  
I want some kid to have a horrible school life due to cut backs in education spending in Michigan.

I want that kid to grow up uneducated and without a direction that may have come from a positive school life.

I want this kid to get into gangs and eventually have to leave Michigan die to legal trouble and go have to live with his cousin in D.C.

I want this I'd to mug and beat the ever living shiate out this this douchbag.

//sadly, I am not kidding. I really want this to happen.
 
2012-12-12 08:32:26 PM  
I 'gree! Book learnin' never helped no 1, no where, no how. Teacher's ain't neded!
 
2012-12-12 08:36:00 PM  

Cinaed: Police and Firefighters? Good for today.
Teachers? Good for tomorrow.


Republicans: AMAZING FOREVER
 
2012-12-12 08:36:06 PM  
I've got to stop teaching my students to be critical thinkers. That's what this douche wants. He's afraid of me. He's got every right to be.

/librul scum teacher
//farking union librul scum teacher
 
2012-12-12 08:36:07 PM  
If unions care about workers as much as they claim to, they'll continue representing the employees even if they're not being paid for it.
 
2012-12-12 08:37:16 PM  

Cinaed: Police and Firefighters? Good for today.
Teachers? Good for tomorrow.


The GOP doesn't care about future concequences. They care about the extra $2 in their pocket right now, even if mean it will cost them $200 later.
 
2012-12-12 08:38:45 PM  
"I'm a comedian who hopes to get on Redeye."

"media.washtimes.com
 
2012-12-12 08:38:58 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: If unions care about workers as much as they claim to, they'll continue representing the employees even if they're not being paid for it.



If firefighters and police really care about the citizens they're sworn to protect, they'll send their paychecks back and serve their cities gratis.
 
2012-12-12 08:39:05 PM  

naughtyrev: Wow, that article has a troll-tastic headline, and based on the author's bio, I'm sure he'd be a blast at parties. Also, he may want to try to make his book titles a little more varied.

Also, this gem: "Money was taken from their paychecks to fund political causes they vehemently detested." about his parents. So, it's bad when unions do it, but just fine when the company you works for gets tax breaks that you have to pick up the slack on while they lobby for more tax breaks or else they'll move jobs overseas. Alternatively, if you're say, anti-war, your taxes are still going to that war. But this doesn't occur to the author.


My thought about two sentences into the article was "wow, the Washington Times hires 8th graders as writers."

///no insult intended to you 8th graders reading this, I'm sure you do better than the Washington Times
 
2012-12-12 08:39:18 PM  

bahamasorbust: Peter von Nostrand: edmo: So if they're essential you make it illegal for them to strike thus who needs a union?

If the FD is a local of the IAFF they can't strike. Firefighters aren't a true union (it's International Association of Fire Fighters) since we don't have the power to strike. I would imagine PD is the same but I can't say that for certain

What the hell are you talking about? The IAFF is a union, regardless of the local chapters not being able to strike. It's a damn powerful lobbying organization too, which has resulted in the US having a crappy EMS system.


I can only assume you're trolling
 
2012-12-12 08:39:28 PM  
Sorry for typos above, Apple auto correct is a little too robust.

Also, my hypothetical youth apparently should go to LA and not D.C.to beat the ever living shiate out of this a$$hole
 
2012-12-12 08:39:29 PM  
Time and again, the GOP proves you don't need to posses critical thinking skills, know virtually anything, or have more intelligence than a sea cucumber in order to be elected to office or become a political or economic "expert." Clearly education is overvalued by the ivory tower elitists.
 
2012-12-12 08:40:10 PM  
The real reason is that police and firefighter unions tend to contribute more to Republicans.

The International Association of Firefighters and the International Association of Fire Chiefs continually donate to democratic candidates and their campaigns. In fact, they pissed a lot of people off by endorsing Obama this time around.

/hate the IAFF, but for different reasons.
//IAFF - Patient care and science mean jack shiat if we keep our jobs.
///Not anti-fire union. Just anti-fire union stupidity.
 
2012-12-12 08:40:43 PM  
People at my last job biatched about $30 a month in union dues. We would always point out that, at a direct result of the last negotiating cycle, they were taking home about $200 a month more than they would have otherwise, plus their kids were finally covered in the health plan. They still biatched about the $30.

Moral: when the middle class finally dies, it will kind of deserve it.
 
2012-12-12 08:41:40 PM  
Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"
 
2012-12-12 08:45:00 PM  
The point is that parents can do an equally good job teaching their kids about the ways of the world than teachers and often times can do a better job since teachers often push their own agendas in the class room instead of teaching the way the lord intended. The teacher may be useful for some lazy and godless parents who dont love their children but useful isn't the same thing as necessary.
 
2012-12-12 08:48:15 PM  
Seems I have to keep making this point
according to a survey by the Gates foundation teachers work an average of 53 hours a week

So even if teachers take 8 weeks off they work 2332 hours a year, if they take 3 months off they work 2120 hours a year
A worker working 40 hrs/week for 50 weeks works 2000 hours a year
 
2012-12-12 08:48:20 PM  

beta_plus: Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"


Wow, that troll was trolled so hard I think you may have damaged the bridge.

/troll
 
2012-12-12 08:48:55 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: sigdiamond2000: This cannot possibly, seriously, be this guy's profile pic

[media.washtimes.com image 120x120]

I refuse to accept that.

This is begging for a "Penis goes where?" caption


I realize that no one reads the thread before posting anymore, but I usually manage to make it through the first three posts, at least.
 
2012-12-12 08:49:51 PM  

Mentat: BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?

It's the same divide and conquer strategy Walker tried in Wisconsin. Set the unions against each other, take out the public sector unions, take out the industrial unions, and then take out the police and firefighter unions last when there's no one left to support them.


As usual, libtards try to hide their bitter tears of impotent rage by being intentionally obtuse on why having an actual skill set and doing something inherently dangerous allows one to have a sustainable and useful union.


/oh, and conveniently ignoring the 1919 Boston Police Strike
 
2012-12-12 08:51:19 PM  

BMulligan: Peter von Nostrand: sigdiamond2000: This cannot possibly, seriously, be this guy's profile pic

[media.washtimes.com image 120x120]

I refuse to accept that.

This is begging for a "Penis goes where?" caption

I realize that no one reads the thread before posting anymore, but I usually manage to make it through the first three posts, at least.


Point taken. I saw the pic but I guess I missed the writing underneath
 
2012-12-12 08:52:13 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: bahamasorbust: Peter von Nostrand: edmo: So if they're essential you make it illegal for them to strike thus who needs a union?

If the FD is a local of the IAFF they can't strike. Firefighters aren't a true union (it's International Association of Fire Fighters) since we don't have the power to strike. I would imagine PD is the same but I can't say that for certain

What the hell are you talking about? The IAFF is a union, regardless of the local chapters not being able to strike. It's a damn powerful lobbying organization too, which has resulted in the US having a crappy EMS system.

I can only assume you're trolling


He's not trolling. The IAFF is responsible for a LOT of the problems with this nation's EMS system by lobbying for decreased education standards to make EMT and Paramedic accessable to everyone who wants to attend it, fighting against increased educational standards in the Fire Service, and promoting the idea that EMS is just a money-maker for Fire Departments who need to justify personel budgets.

IAFF at a national level has a stated agenda against private, hospital-based or third-service 911 systems which provide EMS, regardless of the fact the local unions protect firefighter safety.
 
2012-12-12 08:52:13 PM  

beta_plus: Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"


Ladies and gentlemen...beta plus! Clearly, the way to get highly trained and motivated individuals to become teachers is to pay them next to nothing.

I'm sure there is a huge backlog of trained and educated teachers who are refusing to become teachers because $40k a year is just too much money. I mean sure, we already pay them less than they would get in virtually any other field given their education, but if we just lower it even more, I'm sure they'll come around.
 
2012-12-12 08:55:16 PM  

phritz: People at my last job biatched about $30 a month in union dues. We would always point out that, at a direct result of the last negotiating cycle, they were taking home about $200 a month more than they would have otherwise, plus their kids were finally covered in the health plan. They still biatched about the $30.

Moral: when the middle class finally dies, it will kind of deserve it.



Not surprising... These are the same d-bags who piss and moan about taxes. They're self-centered jackholes who can't see past the end of their noses.

If you -gave- these people a lottery ticket that you paid for, just for shiats and grins, with a handshake deal to kick you back 10% if they won... you can bet your sweet ass that if that ticket hit the jackpot, they'd be formulating a rationale for reneging before the last number was announced.
 
2012-12-12 08:55:20 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: BMulligan: Peter von Nostrand: sigdiamond2000: This cannot possibly, seriously, be this guy's profile pic

[media.washtimes.com image 120x120]

I refuse to accept that.

This is begging for a "Penis goes where?" caption

I realize that no one reads the thread before posting anymore, but I usually manage to make it through the first three posts, at least.

Point taken. I saw the pic but I guess I missed the writing underneath


Aw, heck, I'm just bustin' your chops.
 
2012-12-12 08:59:04 PM  
If every public schoolteacher quit tomorrow, private schools, charter schools, and home-schooling would pick up the slack. Public schoolteachers mistake their own egos for societal significance.

What the fark am I reading?
 
2012-12-12 09:02:48 PM  
They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.
 
2012-12-12 09:03:19 PM  

sigdiamond2000: This cannot possibly, seriously, be this guy's profile pic

[media.washtimes.com image 120x120]

I refuse to accept that.


it looks like an Onion people on the street picture
 
2012-12-12 09:07:09 PM  

Ant: So much for collective bargaining if people can just opt out of the union and undercut the union workers.


You're presenting this as if it were a simple binary distinction - either we can have collective bargaining, or we can have right to work, but not both. This is clearly false, since unions continue to exist in right to work states.

They lose some power, sure. Not all of it.

Is there some reason why they should have any more of a "right" to absolute collective bargaining power than any other people should have a "right" to get a job without being in their club? I'm not seeing one. It's just another group of assholes trying to control people.
 
2012-12-12 09:09:02 PM  

d23: Cinaed: Police and Firefighters? Good for today.
Teachers? Good for tomorrow.

The GOP doesn't care about future concequences. They care about the extra $2 in their pocket right now, even if mean it will cost them $200 later.


And that showcases the limitation of the Conservative mindset and fiscal responsibility.
 
2012-12-12 09:10:29 PM  

Lawnchair: FTFA If every public schoolteacher quit tomorrow, private schools, charter schools, and home-schooling would pick up the slack.

Well, except for the couple to few million special-needs kids born to parents who can't afford either high-priced schools or staying home, that private/charter schools don't want to touch with a 50-foot-pole. But, y'know, fark them. That's what Jesus would say.


"Special needs" need to be rethought along the German system lines. At some point you're throwing good money after bad, so get them to a level of self-sufficiency, put them in a trade or vocational school, and stop wasting money pretending that if we spend another $400,000 on one kid he might be the one who makes it to college and flunks out after the first semester. Some parents are using the public school system as the world's most expensive babysitter.
 
2012-12-12 09:13:18 PM  

Balchinian: What to non-union members get in return for those payments? Nada.


Wrong. Unions drive up ALL employee wages, even for employees who aren't unionized, and for employees who don't work at that company. Basically, without union power, non-union jobs wouldn't have good wages and benefits.
 
2012-12-12 09:14:22 PM  
BronyMedic:

I'm indifferent to EMS, there's evidence that fire based EMS is better. There's evidence that private or 3rd party systems are better. I have no interest in ever being on an ambulance and will never have to. My comment was directly related to the insistence that IAFF Locals can strike. A no strike provision was put in the IAFF Constitution and there has only been one strike in the history of the IAFF. I believe it was in Boston in the late 20's
 
2012-12-12 09:16:02 PM  

Absolut Height Advantage: It's the same reason the state police union was the only union exempt in Wisconsin's dismantling of collective bargaining: IN CASE OF PUBLIC UPRISING, THE RICH ARE STILL PROTECTED BY THE POLICE THEY ESSENTIALLY PURCHASED, and I guess in this case they also wanted the fires set to their homes by the lynch mobs put out


This.

The Republicans are making sure that they have a hand in creating the new Middle Class, which will consist of public services for them but not for anybody else. And that Middle Class will be full of police that, out of fear of losing what they have, will be perfect servants for the Rich and be given enough rights to bully the poor or whomever they want without repercussion. And the Republican half of this nation will lap it up because surely nothing will happen to them...right up until it does, which then they'll just keep voting Republican because their fear outweighs their ability to do anything.

And considering the Republican base holds nothing dear (as shown by throwing their Christianity away to vote for a Mormon), they will gladly give up their guns once their representatives/masters tell them to do so.

You know, the most hilarious thing about Republicans is how easily they give up the very rights that they claim are being threatened upon some authority figure's say so. What do they really fight for, anyway? They don't. They run on fear and their inability to live the life they want. Bitterness and rage, the true two things a Republican really gives a damn about.
 
2012-12-12 09:18:23 PM  

BMulligan: Aw, heck, I'm just bustin' your chops.


Who's up for crab legs?

www.theurbanlist.com

/actually now that i think about it, mary have said that
 
2012-12-12 09:20:14 PM  

Lsherm: "Special needs" need to be rethought along the German system lines

.

It's hard to call that "German system" when that's what most countries do. We're the exception, not them. Outside the US and to a lesser degree Canada, there's nowhere else in the world where, past the age of 10 or 11, 70-something-IQ lifetime floor-sweepers are in the same school, let alone the same classroom (in many courses), as kids who end up getting 35s or 36s on their ACT exams.

That said, we have some societal obligation to the appropriate education of those kids too, and it's not something privatization is going to cover (it's never going to be profitable).
 
2012-12-12 09:20:55 PM  

Mentat: BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?

It's the same divide and conquer strategy Walker tried in Wisconsin. Set the unions against each other, take out the public sector unions, take out the industrial unions, and then take out the police and firefighter unions last when there's no one left to support them.


Tried? He essentially succeeded since the Democrats here were up shiat creek minus paddle.
 
2012-12-12 09:30:16 PM  

Lawnchair: Lsherm: "Special needs" need to be rethought along the German system lines.

It's hard to call that "German system" when that's what most countries do. We're the exception, not them. Outside the US and to a lesser degree Canada, there's nowhere else in the world where, past the age of 10 or 11, 70-something-IQ lifetime floor-sweepers are in the same school, let alone the same classroom (in many courses), as kids who end up getting 35s or 36s on their ACT exams.

That said, we have some societal obligation to the appropriate education of those kids too, and it's not something privatization is going to cover (it's never going to be profitable).


The Germans and most other countries also don't make the misake of making college-level education job training either. That's a different track just as it should be. College is for people that want to actually learn.
 
2012-12-12 09:32:49 PM  

LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?


Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.
 
2012-12-12 09:41:37 PM  

Lawnchair: Lsherm: "Special needs" need to be rethought along the German system lines.

It's hard to call that "German system" when that's what most countries do. We're the exception, not them. Outside the US and to a lesser degree Canada, there's nowhere else in the world where, past the age of 10 or 11, 70-something-IQ lifetime floor-sweepers are in the same school, let alone the same classroom (in many courses), as kids who end up getting 35s or 36s on their ACT exams.

That said, we have some societal obligation to the appropriate education of those kids too, and it's not something privatization is going to cover (it's never going to be profitable).


Dude, I didn't name it. I was actually going to use "European system" but when I went to look up details I learned it was all modeled after the "German system."

/Damn Germans.
 
2012-12-12 09:43:39 PM  

Guntram Shatterhand: And considering the Republican base holds nothing dear (as shown by throwing their Christianity away to vote for a Mormon),


img827.imageshack.us

+1 for an insanely bigoted statement that will probably be ignored.
 
2012-12-12 09:49:30 PM  
My parents were forced to join their union. Money was taken from their paychecks to fund political causes they vehemently detested. Imagine how liberals would react if dues were used to fund AFP or other conservative causes. They would call this stealing, which it is....The legislation exempts firefighters and police officers but not schoolteachers. This is because firefighters and police officers are vital to society.

Mr. Goloub, please explain to the class what 'contradiction' means. You have already provided a fine example.
 
2012-12-12 09:50:01 PM  
Education in the youth is an investment in the future tax base.

It's human capitalism.
 
2012-12-12 10:10:30 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: BronyMedic:

I'm indifferent to EMS, there's evidence that fire based EMS is better. There's evidence that private or 3rd party systems are better. I have no interest in ever being on an ambulance and will never have to. My comment was directly related to the insistence that IAFF Locals can strike. A no strike provision was put in the IAFF Constitution and there has only been one strike in the history of the IAFF. I believe it was in Boston in the late 20's


Do you have a citation on that?

The only "evidence" that Fire based EMS was better was a single study showing cardiac arrest survival rated increased when they put an EMT on the pumper.

Or are you talking about that IAFF position statement which stated anyone not a firefighter was too oncompetent to do 911 care, that was promptly memory holes because it caused international outrage?
 
2012-12-12 10:12:40 PM  
This is because firefighters and police officers are vital to society. Teachers are not"

Whoever said this needs to resign.
 
2012-12-12 10:15:05 PM  

Diogenes: [media.washtimes.com image 120x120]


Is it just me, or does this guy look like Torg's hipster brother?
 
2012-12-12 10:15:22 PM  

Fart_Machine: LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?

Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.


But non-union shops tend to have shiattier wages, benefits and such. People like him just want the benefits a union brings without the responsibility.
 
2012-12-12 10:19:25 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: BronyMedic:

I'm indifferent to EMS, there's evidence that fire based EMS is better. There's evidence that private or 3rd party systems are better. I have no interest in ever being on an ambulance and will never have to. My comment was directly related to the insistence that IAFF Locals can strike. A no strike provision was put in the IAFF Constitution and there has only been one strike in the history of the IAFF. I believe it was in Boston in the late 20's


Rates.
Incompetent.

Stupid IPhone.

Another thing is the IAFFs treatment of Volunteer Firefighters, their lobbying to keep Paramedic education a technical cert and not a 2/4 year degree, and their bias against increased fire education standards.

Kansas City is a great example. IAFF backed fire side took over the city's third service EMS which had worked fine for decades, laid off everyone not fire, and have continually managed to fail to even meet previous response times. And then you have Detroit.

You say you're not interested in the EMS side, so do most firefighters I know. But the IAFF is on a mission to put us third service people out of a job.
 
2012-12-12 10:23:33 PM  

BronyMedic: Peter von Nostrand: BronyMedic:

I'm indifferent to EMS, there's evidence that fire based EMS is better. There's evidence that private or 3rd party systems are better. I have no interest in ever being on an ambulance and will never have to. My comment was directly related to the insistence that IAFF Locals can strike. A no strike provision was put in the IAFF Constitution and there has only been one strike in the history of the IAFF. I believe it was in Boston in the late 20's

Do you have a citation on that?

The only "evidence" that Fire based EMS was better was a single study showing cardiac arrest survival rated increased when they put an EMT on the pumper.

Or are you talking about that IAFF position statement which stated anyone not a firefighter was too oncompetent to do 911 care, that was promptly memory holes because it caused international outrage?


Nope and not going to look one up. Like I said, I'm indifferent. I won't ever be on an ambulance and there is zero desire to take it over where I work. The system here is a public utility model for EMS and while the ambulance authority occasionally has staffing issues, it works okay. Do I think that fire based EMS would be better, yes. Do I have any evidence to support that other than my opinion, nope
 
2012-12-12 10:27:38 PM  
Wow, so just like the Wisconsin shiat! Aww, poor police and fire unions will get grumpy if they can't have special treatment. Unions for some... Way to prove that this is all just complete and utter bullshiat guys. FFS, this guy is a tool!
 
2012-12-12 10:31:50 PM  

BronyMedic: Peter von Nostrand: BronyMedic:

I'm indifferent to EMS, there's evidence that fire based EMS is better. There's evidence that private or 3rd party systems are better. I have no interest in ever being on an ambulance and will never have to. My comment was directly related to the insistence that IAFF Locals can strike. A no strike provision was put in the IAFF Constitution and there has only been one strike in the history of the IAFF. I believe it was in Boston in the late 20's

Rates.
Incompetent.

Stupid IPhone.

Another thing is the IAFFs treatment of Volunteer Firefighters, their lobbying to keep Paramedic education a technical cert and not a 2/4 year degree, and their bias against increased fire education standards.

Kansas City is a great example. IAFF backed fire side took over the city's third service EMS which had worked fine for decades, laid off everyone not fire, and have continually managed to fail to even meet previous response times. And then you have Detroit.

You say you're not interested in the EMS side, so do most firefighters I know. But the IAFF is on a mission to put us third service people out of a job.


I can't say I agree with everything the IAFF does and would hazard to guess most Union members don't. I know there were a lot of guys unhappy in '04 when the IAFF endorsed Kerry over Bush (well at least here but it's Texas).

As far as protecting jobs, well that's what most Unions are for. I can only tell what was told to me 17 years ago, we're not here to save your skin or get you out of trouble if you do something stupid. We're here to make sure the disciplinary process is run without bias and to make sure that Civil Service Laws are followed. You can also say that the IAFF is out to increase opportunities for the membership. I do think that if EMS was more unionized the pay and benefits would be much better. Whether it's fire or private. Heck, I remember being in the Academy at getting paid more per hour than the Paramedic on the ambulance I did my ride outs with
 
2012-12-12 10:48:35 PM  

LordJiro: Fart_Machine: LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?

Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.

But non-union shops tend to have shiattier wages, benefits and such. People like him just want the benefits a union brings without the responsibility.


Pretty much this. Same entitled mentality as all rightists.
 
2012-12-12 10:48:50 PM  
Hey asshole blogger,

Go fark yourself.

Love, Tudorgurl
 
2012-12-12 10:55:56 PM  

whidbey: This is because firefighters and police officers are vital to society. Teachers are not"

Whoever said this needs to resign.


I don't think they should have signed to begin with.
 
2012-12-12 11:15:49 PM  
i29.photobucket.com

Can you open your mouth wider and tilt your head back?
 
2012-12-12 11:20:25 PM  

Diogenes: FlashHarry: BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?

actually, it's because cops and firefighters are gay icons. do you think your average bible-thumping michigan republican is going to rub one out to thoughts of a school teacher?

[www.thearchnemesis.com image 335x282]

[marvelousmisadventures.typepad.com image 300x300] 

It's conceivable.


Pornography. Is there anything it CAN'T do?

/never been hot for teacher...
//well one of the male ones WAS awfully pretty...
 
2012-12-12 11:20:36 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: Do I think that fire based EMS would be better, yes.


Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to be hostile with you, but this is one area I'm pretty passionate about. The problem with forcing EMS on Fire is, like you have said, people did not sign up to be a Firefighter to do patient care. Countries like UK and Canada have robust and progressive EMS systems with Firefighters ONLY providing first responder-level care. Things end badly when you force a Firefighter to care for someone when they don't have any desire to do so, it reflects in the way they manage and handle patients.

In addition, there are areas in the United States which CANNOT afford Fire-based EMS. It's EXPENSIVE as all get-out to do it, which is why it's far more common to see in large urban areas. Many areas of the US cannot even afford to pay a full time firefighter to man stations, and 70% of the Fire Service in the United States is volunteer.

As a Fire Volunteer myself, there's nothing wrong with them in the least, but I can also tell you that they do not maintain the same level of training and practice as a Hospital or Third-service based system.

Peter von Nostrand: I can't say I agree with everything the IAFF does and would hazard to guess most Union members don't. I know there were a lot of guys unhappy in '04 when the IAFF endorsed Kerry over Bush (well at least here but it's Texas).

As far as protecting jobs, well that's what most Unions are for. I can only tell what was told to me 17 years ago, we're not here to save your skin or get you out of trouble if you do something stupid. We're here to make sure the disciplinary process is run without bias and to make sure that Civil Service Laws are followed. You can also say that the IAFF is out to increase opportunities for the membership.


You know, I don't have a problem with the IAFF at the local level. They do protect firefighters. The problem I have is with their national leadership who actively pursues an agenda of forced cross-training and EMS absorbtion so that they can keep personnel without making cuts due to budget concerns. And I do understand they want to protect their members jobs. But if they were just seeking to increase their membership - again, using Kansas City, MO as an example, they wouldn't be laying off people who are a year away from their county pension, and refusing to hire them while stripping engine companies to run ambulances.

Peter von Nostrand: I do think that if EMS was more unionized the pay and benefits would be much better. Whether it's fire or private. Heck, I remember being in the Academy at getting paid more per hour than the Paramedic on the ambulance I did my ride outs with


The problem is that the groups can't play nice. Fire Side Paramedics view themselves a Fire Side only, and don't get along well as a rule with their third service and private counterparts. It's a matter of culture, and as we both know, the Fire Service is 200 years of tradition unhampered by progress.

There ARE unions for Paramedics, but they are far less prevalent and visible as the IAFF.

I mentioned what I make a year doing Critical Care Transport to a Paramedic friend of mine in Ontario, and his jaw dropped. They're paid twice what I make at entry level.

One of the other major problems with Paramedics being paid what they deserve is two fold. One, we've only existed in the United States as a legitimate, recognized profession for about 40 years. Nursing has existed for over two hundred. Heck, you still have states where Paramedics are regulated by their boards of nursing as technicians, and certified only - not licensed.

This is another one of the major bones I have to pick with the IAFF. They keep education levels low by a matter of union policy so that Paramedic education is accessible to anyone. They have lobbied against making Paramedic a mandatory two year degree at minimum, and have regularly attacked departments who make higher education a requirement for promotions.

They have also lobbied against Fire Departments participating in Community Care Paramedic programs, which allow Paramedics to function as mid-level providers in the field.

I kind of have a problem with my chosen profession being treated as an add-on to someone's Firefighter cert, while other countries are treating it as a 4-year mandatory degree to even ride the streets and paying accordingly.

/also, Merry Christmas - check your profile in about five minutes.. Always nice to meet a fellow Emergency Services guy on FARK.
 
2012-12-12 11:21:22 PM  

Peter von Nostrand: defeating my attempt to give the gift of TotalFark.


Dangit!
 
2012-12-12 11:21:53 PM  

zedster: Seems I have to keep making this point ...


It's based on teacher survey data so don't take those numbers to the bank. An OECD study showed American teachers at the high end compared to other countries at 1100 hours/year of actual class time in lower secondary, or 25 weeks of eight hour days as a base.
 
2012-12-12 11:26:25 PM  

Fart_Machine: LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?

Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.


You are right. The only ones using force are the unions.
 
2012-12-12 11:32:40 PM  

LargeCanine: Fart_Machine: LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?

Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.

You are right. The only ones using force are the unions.


Unions forced you to get a job? Fascinating.
 
2012-12-12 11:49:05 PM  

goatleggedfellow: [i29.photobucket.com image 164x166]

Can you open your mouth wider and tilt your head back?


Is it safe?
 
2012-12-12 11:54:14 PM  
L.D. Ablo: They prey on the profitable low-hanging fruit of people who drive too fast. Then they try to squirm out of taking police reports from people who are victims of crime. Always some horseshiat about it being a "ivil matter" or "not in their jurisdiction."



-----------------------


I ran into that "civil matter" bullshiat a few months ago. My ex-wife came into my home when she knew I was out and had one of the kids let her in, and a week later went into my father's home, in another city even. Cash, cell phones, passport and legal papers gone between the two incidents. Both PDs told me "civil matter" even though I had a divorce decree in hand showing that there was no longer any civil matter.

I'm sure that this civil matter works for black males in GA too, right?

Farking lazy assed bullies is all they are.
 
2012-12-12 11:58:02 PM  

Absolut Height Advantage: It's the same reason the state police union was the only union exempt in Wisconsin's dismantling of collective bargaining: IN CASE OF PUBLIC UPRISING, THE RICH ARE STILL PROTECTED BY THE POLICE THEY ESSENTIALLY PURCHASED, and I guess in this case they also wanted the fires set to their homes by the lynch mobs put out


Bonus: district court in Wisconsin rejected this provision on equal protection grounds. so Michigan legislators KNEW there was a good reason not to do it this way, and did it anyway, because fark you, that's why
 
2012-12-13 12:01:32 AM  

whidbey: This is because firefighters and police officers are vital to society. Teachers are not"

Whoever said this needs to resign.


Don't you just know that when Romney or whoever it was made that remark about not needing firefighters and cops during the campaign, he was right there behind that statement too?
 
2012-12-13 12:11:20 AM  

beta_plus: Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"


You just got upgraded from "troll amateur" to "troll journeyman." that was some impressive trollin'
 
2012-12-13 12:20:26 AM  

Peter von Nostrand: I have no interest in ever being on an ambulance and will never have to


Peter von Nostrand: I won't ever be on an ambulance


I wouldn't say that a third time if I were you.

trollgod.jpg
 
2012-12-13 12:39:40 AM  

LargeCanine: Fart_Machine: LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?

Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.

You are right. The only ones using force are the unions.


Nobody's stopping you from finding a job at a workplace without a union. But if you CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities that come with it. If you just want the benefits and wages the unions negotiate for without actually working for them, you're...well, a typical lazy, entitled Republican.

Bet you whine about poor people being 'leeches', too.
 
2012-12-13 12:41:13 AM  

badhatharry: They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.


Nobody is forced to join a union.
 
2012-12-13 12:43:28 AM  
I'ts to quell the backlash. Cops love crackin socialist skulls on overtime and the EMTs are there to help.
 
2012-12-13 12:49:40 AM  
The legislation exempts firefighters and police officers but not schoolteachers. This is because firefighters and police officers are vital to society. Teachers are not. Let them scream and holler. That's all they ever do anyway. Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know. These people risk death every day. If they strike, society risks breaking down.

www.progressohio.org
 
2012-12-13 12:51:36 AM  

LordJiro: LargeCanine: Fart_Machine: LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?

Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.

You are right. The only ones using force are the unions.

Nobody's stopping you from finding a job at a workplace without a union. But if you CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities that come with it. If you just want the benefits and wages the unions negotiate for without actually working for them, you're...well, a typical lazy, entitled Republican.

Bet you whine about poor people being 'leeches', too.


Ahem. "Projection"
 
2012-12-13 12:58:29 AM  
They need the cops on the job to bust open the heads of the other groups that protest. The firemen are needed to put out any post riot fires.
 
2012-12-13 01:01:11 AM  

LargeCanine: LordJiro: LargeCanine: Fart_Machine: LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?

Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.

You are right. The only ones using force are the unions.

Nobody's stopping you from finding a job at a workplace without a union. But if you CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities that come with it. If you just want the benefits and wages the unions negotiate for without actually working for them, you're...well, a typical lazy, entitled Republican.

Bet you whine about poor people being 'leeches', too.

Ahem. "Projection"


Ahem, "you're not being clever".

I have two uncles who own their own business and a big part of that was because when they were damn near destitute children of WWII refugees, they got union jobs that offered them a decent living and got their back, helped them to find training, etc. Both of them are incredibly successful now, and while they worked like no other they would be the first to tell you that being part of the union made sure that they got a decent wage for that incredible amount of work they were doing. And because they weren't living paycheck to paycheck for the skilled trades they had learned, they could both save and start their own business and (gasp) become - job creators.

images3.wikia.nocookie.net

/pic lgt video
 
2012-12-13 01:02:10 AM  

LargeCanine: LordJiro: LargeCanine: Fart_Machine: LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?

Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.

You are right. The only ones using force are the unions.

Nobody's stopping you from finding a job at a workplace without a union. But if you CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities that come with it. If you just want the benefits and wages the unions negotiate for without actually working for them, you're...well, a typical lazy, entitled Republican.

Bet you whine about poor people being 'leeches', too.

Ahem. "Projection"


How is it projection? If you get better wages/benefits when a union negotiates them, but do not contribute to the union, how are you not leeching off the union?
 
2012-12-13 01:02:59 AM  

r1chard3: They need the cops on the job to bust open the heads of the other groups that protest. The firemen are needed to put out any post riot fires.


We can't bust heads like we used to. But we have our ways. One trick is to tell stories that don't go anywhere. Like the time I caught the ferry to Shelbyville. I needed a new heel for m'shoe. So I decided to go to Morganville, which is what they called Shelbyville in those days. So I tied an onion to my belt. Which was the style at the time. Now, to take the ferry cost a nickel, and in those days, nickels had pictures of bumblebees on 'em. Gimme five bees for a quarter, you'd say. Now where was I... oh yeah. The important thing was that I had an onion tied to my belt, which was the style at the time. You couldn't get white onions, because of the war. The only thing you could get was those big yellow ones...
 
2012-12-13 01:04:27 AM  

Notabunny: badhatharry: They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.

Nobody is forced to join a union.


No, but in a closed shop you're forced to pay for the union. Don't pretend otherwise.
 
2012-12-13 01:05:33 AM  
Fista-Phobia: The legislation exempts firefighters and police officers but not schoolteachers. This is because firefighters and police officers are vital to society. Teachers are not. Let them scream and holler. That's all they ever do anyway. Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know. These people risk death every day. If they strike, society risks breaking down.

[www.progressohio.org image 400x384]



---------------------------

I think the long term calamity of not educating our kids is far worse than whatever you are implying would happen if police and firemen got paid like any other worker should be paid, according to you.

Some animals are more equal than others.
 
2012-12-13 01:07:13 AM  
And talk about a politcal party pandering to a subset of a constituency, acting like Santa Claus and giving away "stuff" and special priveleges to buy votes.
 
2012-12-13 01:08:13 AM  

LargeCanine: Ahem. "Projection"


I don't think you understand what that word means.
 
2012-12-13 01:16:47 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: LargeCanine: LordJiro: LargeCanine: Fart_Machine: LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?

Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.

You are right. The only ones using force are the unions.

Nobody's stopping you from finding a job at a workplace without a union. But if you CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities that come with it. If you just want the benefits and wages the unions negotiate for without actually working for them, you're...well, a typical lazy, entitled Republican.

Bet you whine about poor people being 'leeches', too.

Ahem. "Projection"

Ahem, "you're not being clever".

I have two uncles who own their own business and a big part of that was because when they were damn near destitute children of WWII refugees, they got union jobs that offered them a decent living and got their back, helped them to find training, etc. Both of them are incredibly successful now, and while they worked like no other they would be the first to tell you that being part of the union made sure that they got a decent wage for that incredible amount of work they were doing. And because they weren't living paycheck to paycheck for the skilled trades they had learned, they could both save and start their own business and (gasp) become - job creators.

[images3.wikia.nocookie.net image 512x384]

/pic lgt video


Nice story. Irrelevant.
 
2012-12-13 01:17:25 AM  

Mentat: LargeCanine: Ahem. "Projection"

I don't think you understand what that word means.


I am sure you think a lot of things.
 
2012-12-13 01:17:27 AM  

Insatiable Jesus: Fista-Phobia: The legislation exempts firefighters and police officers but not schoolteachers. This is because firefighters and police officers are vital to society. Teachers are not. Let them scream and holler. That's all they ever do anyway. Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know. These people risk death every day. If they strike, society risks breaking down.

[www.progressohio.org image 400x384]



---------------------------

I think the long term calamity of not educating our kids is far worse than whatever you are implying would happen if police and firemen got paid like any other worker should be paid, according to you.

Some animals are more equal than others.


Agreed. I was commenting on How Kasich went all in and lost and that future state laws will exempt the police and firefighters to extend that fresh, anti-socialist scent.
 
2012-12-13 01:26:04 AM  

LargeCanine: StreetlightInTheGhetto: LargeCanine: LordJiro: LargeCanine: Fart_Machine: LargeCanine: Whatever happened to liberty and personal freedom?

Don't work for a union shop. Nobody is forcing you to.

You are right. The only ones using force are the unions.

Nobody's stopping you from finding a job at a workplace without a union. But if you CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities that come with it. If you just want the benefits and wages the unions negotiate for without actually working for them, you're...well, a typical lazy, entitled Republican.

Bet you whine about poor people being 'leeches', too.

Ahem. "Projection"

Ahem, "you're not being clever".

I have two uncles who own their own business and a big part of that was because when they were damn near destitute children of WWII refugees, they got union jobs that offered them a decent living and got their back, helped them to find training, etc. Both of them are incredibly successful now, and while they worked like no other they would be the first to tell you that being part of the union made sure that they got a decent wage for that incredible amount of work they were doing. And because they weren't living paycheck to paycheck for the skilled trades they had learned, they could both save and start their own business and (gasp) become - job creators.

[images3.wikia.nocookie.net image 512x384]

/pic lgt video

Nice story. Irrelevant.


Considering I live in Michigan with a cowardly legislature who very shadily passed this crap,

considering my grandfather worked through incredibly hazardous conditions before joining strikes to collectively fight for the right to be treated like a human being and not just a intangible asset,

considering my uncles and nearly all my extended family save one still live in the state their parents or grandparents found a better life in in a large part due to unions,


considering despite the fact that my uncles have moved from being poor to incredibly successful but who both still hire union workers because even if it might cost more in the short term it's worth it in the long

IT'S CERTAINLY F--KING RELEVANT.
 
2012-12-13 01:29:52 AM  

Lsherm: Notabunny: badhatharry: They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.

Nobody is forced to join a union.

No, but in a closed shop you're forced to pay for the union. Don't pretend otherwise.


And who's forcing you to work at a closed shop? Answer: Nobody. You CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities.
 
2012-12-13 01:30:09 AM  

Lsherm: Notabunny: badhatharry: They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.

Nobody is forced to join a union.

No, but in a closed shop you're forced to pay for the union. Don't pretend otherwise.


Yeah, so?
 
2012-12-13 01:32:03 AM  

LordJiro: Lsherm: Notabunny: badhatharry: They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.

Nobody is forced to join a union.

No, but in a closed shop you're forced to pay for the union. Don't pretend otherwise.

And who's forcing you to work at a closed shop? Answer: Nobody. You CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities.


Fair enough, I guess that's why they keep disappearing.

Hold on to the past, it's a good way of moving towards the future.
 
2012-12-13 01:33:05 AM  
Jesus Christ.

That blogger is a bigger troll than most of Fark's resident trolls
 
2012-12-13 01:34:56 AM  

Lsherm: LordJiro: Lsherm: Notabunny: badhatharry: They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.

Nobody is forced to join a union.

No, but in a closed shop you're forced to pay for the union. Don't pretend otherwise.

And who's forcing you to work at a closed shop? Answer: Nobody. You CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities.

Fair enough, I guess that's why they keep disappearing.

Hold on to the past, it's a good way of moving towards the future.


Then you guess wrong.
 
2012-12-13 01:35:44 AM  

LordJiro: And who's forcing you to work at a closed shop? Answer: Nobody. You CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities.


A Republican? Accept responsibilities? Ahahahaha, ohh... Nice one, I needed that.
 
2012-12-13 01:35:52 AM  

Lsherm: LordJiro: Lsherm: Notabunny: badhatharry: They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.

Nobody is forced to join a union.

No, but in a closed shop you're forced to pay for the union. Don't pretend otherwise.

And who's forcing you to work at a closed shop? Answer: Nobody. You CHOOSE to work at a union shop, you accept the responsibilities.

Fair enough, I guess that's why they keep disappearing.

Hold on to the past, it's a good way of moving towards the future.


You'd better pray unions don't disappear. Unless, of course, you thought the Industrial revolution seemed like a fun time. Or maybe you read about feudal Europe, and thought being a serf sounded awesome? Maybe it's simpler...you just look at China, and say "Hey, I want to work there, but immigrating is too much of a pain in the ass!"

Because if the unions go, big business will have no opposition in this country. And all the progress we've made will be rolled back in no time.
 
2012-12-13 01:38:11 AM  
I think Snyder will probably win a second term (kinda felt that way anyway, and Lessenberry has pushed me more firmly in that camp) but before this crap I was the devil's advocate with my coworker that hated him. Yeah, he did sign some crappy legislation, yeah, I can see how you don't agree with this or that. But compared to Walker (or Engler, for that matter) he was okay and not blatantly bought out. Plus he fought against Matty Moroun, which gave Synder an incredible amount of goodwill in my book.

Which is now gone. It would have been different if he hadn't been - not anti Right To Work, but pro Let's Not Pass Right To Work And Work To Unite The State Instead - for a long while. Whatever reasons he's given for the about-face, absolutely none of them so far have won me over.

And if the Republicans were dead set on passing this and Snyder for whatever reason had changed his opinion and felt it was important, or maybe felt that he couldn't stop the momentum so might as well sign it, there were far better ways to do it. People I know who were iffy on whether Right To Work was a good thing or not are still blown away by how quickly and not-above-board it was passed here. And the (eh, five or so) I've talked to since it was a done deal, to varying degrees have all mentioned that it's left a bitter taste in their mouth - most wanted an honest debate and consideration time about the pros and cons of it. It's been hovering on the edges as a possibility since the Republicans have controlled the Legislature and the Executive branches, but the speed at which this went through may have pissed off more people than they intended. Of course, the unions will be crippled in their ability to use that to fight against it, but, you know, whatever.
 
2012-12-13 01:41:48 AM  
LordJiro: You'd better pray unions don't disappear. Unless, of course, you thought the Industrial revolution seemed like a fun time. Or maybe you read about feudal Europe, and thought being a serf sounded awesome? Maybe it's simpler...you just look at China, and say "Hey, I want to work there, but immigrating is too much of a pain in the ass!"Because if the unions go, big business will have no opposition in this country. And all the progress we've made will be rolled back in no time.



--------------------------

And they're not wasting any time. The speed with which they are knocking down labor law that many Americans fought and died for is scary.
 
2012-12-13 01:43:15 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: I think Snyder will probably win a second term (kinda felt that way anyway, and Lessenberry has pushed me more firmly in that camp) but before this crap I was the devil's advocate with my coworker that hated him. Yeah, he did sign some crappy legislation, yeah, I can see how you don't agree with this or that. But compared to Walker (or Engler, for that matter) he was okay and not blatantly bought out. Plus he fought against Matty Moroun, which gave Synder an incredible amount of goodwill in my book.

Which is now gone. It would have been different if he hadn't been - not anti Right To Work, but pro Let's Not Pass Right To Work And Work To Unite The State Instead - for a long while. Whatever reasons he's given for the about-face, absolutely none of them so far have won me over.

And if the Republicans were dead set on passing this and Snyder for whatever reason had changed his opinion and felt it was important, or maybe felt that he couldn't stop the momentum so might as well sign it, there were far better ways to do it. People I know who were iffy on whether Right To Work was a good thing or not are still blown away by how quickly and not-above-board it was passed here. And the (eh, five or so) I've talked to since it was a done deal, to varying degrees have all mentioned that it's left a bitter taste in their mouth - most wanted an honest debate and consideration time about the pros and cons of it. It's been hovering on the edges as a possibility since the Republicans have controlled the Legislature and the Executive branches, but the speed at which this went through may have pissed off more people than they intended. Of course, the unions will be crippled in their ability to use that to fight against it, but, you know, whatever.



And that is the REAL point of right-to-work, in a nutshell. Republicans want to hurt unions. Unions (with a few exceptions) tend to back Democrats, and they stand in the way of executives who want to fark over the workers for profit.

The base are merely greedy; they want the benefits of a union without sacrificing anything. But they're shortsighted and/or ignorant; they don't realize what life was like before strong labor unions, and/or they don't realize how fast things will snap back if/when unions are sufficiently weakened.
 
2012-12-13 01:46:10 AM  

LordJiro: Because if the unions go, big business will have no opposition in this country. And all the progress we've made will be rolled back in no time.


It's been on the path for awhile, honestly. Granted, I'm not the happiest with the larger unions, haven't been for quite some time (although the smaller ones I've interacted with I've generally always come away with a positive experience). But they've been desperately clinging to the side of the boat to keep from drowning for awhile. And it's quite easy to see how workers have already been suffering because of it - I can't count the number of people I've met working incredibly insane hours for the privilege of not losing their job.

Contrast this to America's Hat:

www.washingtonpost.com 

Of course, motherf--king health care isn't an issue on the negotiating table for Canadian unions.
 
2012-12-13 01:47:34 AM  

Insatiable Jesus: And they're not wasting any time. The speed with which they are knocking down labor law that many Americans fought and died for is scary.


They know they only have a narrow window of opportunity. 2010 not only gave them a strong foothold in the Rust Belt but also let them gerrymander the fark out of congressional and state districts. They already see the public turning against them, so they are going to ram through as much bullshiat as they can. Rachel Maddow was talking today about how Snyder was praising a "telemedicine" law that was passed in Michigan a few years ago. Now, the state GOP is trying to force through a law banning telemedicine for state abortion clinics.

The GOP doesn't give a fark about democracy. All of this - Citizen's United, voter ID laws, anti-abortion laws, assaults on ACORN and Planned Parenthood - is nothing more than a naked power grab on a scale that I haven't seen in my lifetime.
 
2012-12-13 01:51:01 AM  

LordJiro: StreetlightInTheGhetto: I think Snyder will probably win a second term (kinda felt that way anyway, and Lessenberry has pushed me more firmly in that camp) but before this crap I was the devil's advocate with my coworker that hated him. Yeah, he did sign some crappy legislation, yeah, I can see how you don't agree with this or that. But compared to Walker (or Engler, for that matter) he was okay and not blatantly bought out. Plus he fought against Matty Moroun, which gave Synder an incredible amount of goodwill in my book.

Which is now gone. It would have been different if he hadn't been - not anti Right To Work, but pro Let's Not Pass Right To Work And Work To Unite The State Instead - for a long while. Whatever reasons he's given for the about-face, absolutely none of them so far have won me over.

And if the Republicans were dead set on passing this and Snyder for whatever reason had changed his opinion and felt it was important, or maybe felt that he couldn't stop the momentum so might as well sign it, there were far better ways to do it. People I know who were iffy on whether Right To Work was a good thing or not are still blown away by how quickly and not-above-board it was passed here. And the (eh, five or so) I've talked to since it was a done deal, to varying degrees have all mentioned that it's left a bitter taste in their mouth - most wanted an honest debate and consideration time about the pros and cons of it. It's been hovering on the edges as a possibility since the Republicans have controlled the Legislature and the Executive branches, but the speed at which this went through may have pissed off more people than they intended. Of course, the unions will be crippled in their ability to use that to fight against it, but, you know, whatever.


And that is the REAL point of right-to-work, in a nutshell. Republicans want to hurt unions. Unions (with a few exceptions) tend to back Democrats, and they stand in the way of executives who want to fark o ...


Destroying unions may be the hill Republicans choose to fight and die on. It has nothing to do with wages, or benefits, or people, or jobs, or anything like that. It's the Republicans trying to eliminate the main revenue stream to Democrats. Nothing more than that.
 
2012-12-13 01:57:25 AM  

LordJiro: And that is the REAL point of right-to-work, in a nutshell. Republicans want to hurt unions. Unions (with a few exceptions) tend to back Democrats, and they stand in the way of executives who want to fark over the workers for profit.

The base are merely greedy; they want the benefits of a union without sacrificing anything. But they're shortsighted and/or ignorant; they don't realize what life was like before strong labor unions, and/or they don't realize how fast things will snap back if/when unions are sufficiently weakened.


It's ok, we have LAWS now. It's not like we have to fight to keep them or anything.
 
2012-12-13 01:58:53 AM  

Notabunny: Destroying unions may be the hill Republicans choose to fight and die on. It has nothing to do with wages, or benefits, or people, or jobs, or anything like that. It's the Republicans trying to eliminate the main revenue stream to Democrats. Nothing more than that.


No, that's just a benefit. It's about removing all barriers to profit for the wealthy business owners. Pretty much every aspect of Republican ideology boils down to that.
 
2012-12-13 02:00:45 AM  

LordJiro: And that is the REAL point of right-to-work, in a nutshell. Republicans want to hurt unions. Unions (with a few exceptions) tend to back Democrats, and they stand in the way of executives who want to fark over the workers for profit.

The base are merely greedy; they want the benefits of a union without sacrificing anything. But they're shortsighted and/or ignorant; they don't realize what life was like before strong labor unions, and/or they don't realize how fast things will snap back if/when unions are sufficiently weakened.


This is a big problem in our society in general. Hell, just look at our infrastructure (especially non visible infrastructure like sewer lines). Plan ahead for the future, ha.

I've been in exactly one union in my life, and I've been working since I was 14, constantly since I was 18. But I have the benefit of knowing my family's (admittedly pretty short) history in the USA, and I have pictures of the fantastic worker protections my grandfather had while building skyscrapers in Detroit (yeah, we have 'em) in the 20s.

That said, the larger unions especially haven't been doing a very good job at PR or organizing (either of their members, potential members, or the public in general toward their viewpoints). It wasn't great in 08, and it isn't that great now although there have been some strides. I'll be the first to admit when unions just don't work - I've seen it firsthand. Like any hierarchy, bubble of yes men and being large enough to miss the day to day concerns of your population. But unions "not working" are still better than absolutely no protection, which is the end game of RTW.

And even though when I was in a union, my rep was half a country away (long story) and overworked to the point we couldn't get the help we needed... the fact that I had union protection to begin with kept me from getting unjustly fired. At that job "full union" only kicked in after a year, and I saw half a dozen of my coworkers let go for completely BS reasons (blatantly so) with no recourse because the management had a vendetta. I got to leave on my own accord because they needed an actual reason to fire me, instead of things like "finished work a half hour early and skipped lunch anyway, so bought a trainee who wasn't going to make it a hamburger during the last 15 minutes of the work day ". That was an actual 'reason' my friend got fired. A friend who was in the lowest levels of management and who tried to help us got ratted out and fired. Never proven accusations of a single inappropriate comment got another friend/coworker fired.

They made up a $3 discrepancy (yep, $3) as a reason to put me on suspension. Of course, I got a job offer an hour before and got to incredibly happily quit before that actually happened. If I hadn't had the smallest semblance of the union at my back, I would have been fired for if not a $3 discrepancy than something else even stupider weeks or months before. They fired other people who didn't for far less.
 
2012-12-13 02:02:55 AM  

Mentat: Notabunny: Destroying unions may be the hill Republicans choose to fight and die on. It has nothing to do with wages, or benefits, or people, or jobs, or anything like that. It's the Republicans trying to eliminate the main revenue stream to Democrats. Nothing more than that.

No, that's just a benefit. It's about removing all barriers to profit for the wealthy business owners. Pretty much every aspect of Republican ideology boils down to that.


From what I heard, it took some prodding, but eventually Henry Ford realized that paying his workers enough where they could afford the cars they were building was a good thing. Apparently that sort of "long term" thinking is now unheard of.
 
2012-12-13 02:08:45 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: Mentat: Notabunny: Destroying unions may be the hill Republicans choose to fight and die on. It has nothing to do with wages, or benefits, or people, or jobs, or anything like that. It's the Republicans trying to eliminate the main revenue stream to Democrats. Nothing more than that.

No, that's just a benefit. It's about removing all barriers to profit for the wealthy business owners. Pretty much every aspect of Republican ideology boils down to that.

From what I heard, it took some prodding, but eventually Henry Ford realized that paying his workers enough where they could afford the cars they were building was a good thing. Apparently that sort of "long term" thinking is now unheard of.


Median wages have been stagnate since the late 1970s. There has definitely been some long-term thinking at play.
 
2012-12-13 02:22:17 AM  
Mentat: The GOP doesn't give a fark about democracy. All of this - Citizen's United, voter ID laws, anti-abortion laws, assaults on ACORN and Planned Parenthood - is nothing more than a naked power grab on a scale that I haven't seen in my lifetime.



---------------------------------


It makes it hard, watching what they will do when they can get away with it in public, just how random events like the high oil prices of the 2000s, the Wall St. collapse and the banking crisis really were.

If they are showing themselves to be evil in public now, what the hell have they been up to in private?

It just sounds like them to see that McCain/Palin was going down hard and pull the plug on the economy so the next guy gets blamed. These disaster capitalists thrive on chaos and uncertainty anyways anymore, there was no downshot in it, only more money. Just like 9/11, the recession gives them mountains of factually bankrupt rhetoric and bumper sticker fodder to ram home anything they want. And all they have to tell their base is that it is good for the economy, no more explanation needed.

And you just watch, in ten years, when the smoke is cleared, I'll bet you have trouble finding many people who will admit to having supported these anti-American corporate goons.
 
2012-12-13 02:23:32 AM  

L.D. Ablo: Cops are vital?

No, they're the armed division of government revenue collection.


So...they ARE vital. For keeping the poors in line. Hey, a guy who is driving a million-dollar Ferrari could give a fark about a $200 traffic ticket. But the poor guy? Well, that WAS his grocery budget for the month...
 
2012-12-13 02:31:01 AM  
Notabunny: Median wages have been stagnate since the late 1970s. There has definitely been some long-term thinking at play.


----------------------------------------

Yeah, it's called Globalism. A New World Order.

They sold it as bringing the rest of the world up to our level, lol. Instead, evidently, they are having us meet the Chinese halfway - standard of living wise. They don't give a rat's ass about how the average American lives, their money owes allegiance to no flag. One big, homogenous market of iPhone consumers is just fine by them.
 
2012-12-13 02:43:40 AM  
Because AFP is politically conservative, they are often targets for leftist violence.

Please site three examples to prove "often"
 
2012-12-13 03:00:34 AM  

Absolut Height Advantage: It's the same reason the state police union was the only union exempt in Wisconsin's dismantling of collective bargaining: IN CASE OF PUBLIC UPRISING, THE RICH ARE STILL PROTECTED BY THE POLICE THEY ESSENTIALLY PURCHASED, and I guess in this case they also wanted the fires set to their homes by the lynch mobs put out


www.wired.com

Fun fact: they donate almost exclusively to Republican politicians. And they have better gear than the cops.
 
2012-12-13 03:28:29 AM  

Now That's What I Call a Taco!: As has been alluded to in this thread, this was done to hit their political opponents and nothing else. Any talk about "principles" is just marketing.

If unions supported the GOP, they'd be demanding we all join the Teamsters.


And yet, the idea of not hurting people who work for a living doesn't seem to cross the minds of any Republican.
 
2012-12-13 03:38:42 AM  
i.qkme.me
 
2012-12-13 03:52:13 AM  

Lsherm: Guntram Shatterhand: And considering the Republican base holds nothing dear (as shown by throwing their Christianity away to vote for a Mormon),

[img827.imageshack.us image 455x325]

+1 for an insanely bigoted statement that will probably be ignored.


No, Republicans betray the teachings of Christ in word and deed, at nearly all times.
 
2012-12-13 03:55:15 AM  
Michigan right-to work violence: Is President Obama fomenting blood in the streets?

Damn he's on to us. Surprise! Your heads first on the block, farker.



If I were a teacher in Wisconsin I would be looking for an out of state position soooo fast...

Let the farkers home school their kids.
 
2012-12-13 04:06:29 AM  
Old enough to know better: If I were a teacher in Wisconsin I would be looking for an out of state position soooo fast...Let the farkers home school their kids.



------------------------

That would lead to the Fed Govt having to take out some sort of an "army" sometime in the near future.
 
2012-12-13 04:08:39 AM  
i.imgur.com

I wonder if GOP understands ppl also want a job that pays enough to live a decent life. How about we cut CEO and Exec pay first?
 
2012-12-13 04:24:26 AM  

beta_plus: Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"


I know you're a troll. But honestly, you're saying your teachers are bad, so let's kill their unions so they can't get good pay and therefore attract intelligent people to the position(some people are altruistic, but a solid pay will draw other people). Yes there are other problems with the US system, but unions aren't necessarily the problem. We have them in Canada and our schools perform quite well... I'd love to hear some educational reform policy you think would help.
 
2012-12-13 04:34:48 AM  

China White Tea: Ant: So much for collective bargaining if people can just opt out of the union and undercut the union workers.

You're presenting this as if it were a simple binary distinction - either we can have collective bargaining, or we can have right to work, but not both. This is clearly false, since unions continue to exist in right to work states.

They lose some power, sure. Not all of it.

Is there some reason why they should have any more of a "right" to absolute collective bargaining power than any other people should have a "right" to get a job without being in their club? I'm not seeing one. It's just another group of assholes trying to control people.


When your lobbying against corporate interests you need every dollar. Ideally I agree with you, but corporations cut workers costs as much as they can, and lobby hard against worker rights - unions losing power isn't really in the US's best interest in the long run imo...

Limit corporate lobbying spending to what the unions can spend and then maybe doing this will work...
 
2012-12-13 04:47:41 AM  

Lawnchair: Lsherm: "Special needs" need to be rethought along the German system lines.

It's hard to call that "German system" when that's what most countries do. We're the exception, not them. Outside the US and to a lesser degree Canada, there's nowhere else in the world where, past the age of 10 or 11, 70-something-IQ lifetime floor-sweepers are in the same school, let alone the same classroom (in many courses), as kids who end up getting 35s or 36s on their ACT exams.

That said, we have some societal obligation to the appropriate education of those kids too, and it's not something privatization is going to cover (it's never going to be profitable).


I don't really think separating IQ groups is that important. Canada's schools score higher than most in the world (I believe S. Korea is the best, and Canada is around 3rd or 4th). US does need to look at educational reform though, most important issue imo, maybe give some incentive to training in areas the country is missing employees (Engineers for example). Get creationism covered in the classroom. Point out the vast scientific evidence against it. Questioning scientific rigor is fine, creationism is just saying stuff that is demonstratively wrong.

Most importantly (for school's everywhere) I think we need to start thinking of ways to test critical thinking/problem solving skills rather than route memorization. I have a good memory, so I did pretty well in school - but it wasn't necessarily a good use of my time. A good memory is a great tool and can help a lot, but let's be honest, we live in a world where we can reference information quickly, we have to incorporate that into school and pull memorization out of the equation more since pertinent.
 
2012-12-13 04:55:38 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: LordJiro: Because if the unions go, big business will have no opposition in this country. And all the progress we've made will be rolled back in no time.

It's been on the path for awhile, honestly. Granted, I'm not the happiest with the larger unions, haven't been for quite some time (although the smaller ones I've interacted with I've generally always come away with a positive experience). But they've been desperately clinging to the side of the boat to keep from drowning for awhile. And it's quite easy to see how workers have already been suffering because of it - I can't count the number of people I've met working incredibly insane hours for the privilege of not losing their job.

Contrast this to America's Hat:

[www.washingtonpost.com image 769x466] 

Of course, motherf--king health care isn't an issue on the negotiating table for Canadian unions.


Yeah, we agreed to national health care a long time ago, don't waste time arguing about it now. I'm okay with paying more taxes so less people die and get sick. Long term benefits = good.
 
2012-12-13 05:26:14 AM  

Lsherm: Some parents are using the public school system as the world's most expensive babysitter.


No, no... that would be prison.
 
2012-12-13 05:48:38 AM  
I try not to dive into internet fights anymore, but jesus christ, I couldn't let this one go. As the child of a teacher that has watched her mother get screwed over by the state time and time again while still doing her damndest to be the best teacher she possibly can - taking more classes, buying supplies for her classroom out of her own damn eternally dwindling paycheck - I can't even begin to describe how much this article enraged me. And the writer is supposedly the child of teachers himself. I hope they're dead rather than reading the shiat their son just wrote bashing the hell out of them.

To the writer, from the very bottom of my heart, I say, "Go fark yourself sideways with a sharp stick, you ignorant, disgusting sack of shiat."
 
2012-12-13 06:53:30 AM  

beta_plus: Mentat: BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?

It's the same divide and conquer strategy Walker tried in Wisconsin. Set the unions against each other, take out the public sector unions, take out the industrial unions, and then take out the police and firefighter unions last when there's no one left to support them.

As usual, libtards try to hide their bitter tears of impotent rage by being intentionally obtuse on why having an actual skill set and doing something inherently dangerous allows one to have a sustainable and useful union.

images.sodahead.com

/oh, and conveniently ignoring the 1919 Boston Police Strike


While you conveniently ignore the 1896 Philadelphia barn fire. Apparently none of you republi-tards are capable of learning from history!

\wow, that was easy
 
2012-12-13 07:16:36 AM  
The purpose of the legislation is to save schoolteachers and the rest of the left from themselves. Right-to-work legislation in neighboring states like Indiana has strengthened their economies at Michigan's expense. Foreign investors have zero interest doing business in anti-business slums. Governor Snyder wants to save Michigan from collapse.

Race to the Bottom, where you belong, peons! If God intended for you to make something of yourself other than indentured servitude to your betters you would have been born rich. Now shut up and stop complaining when we destroy everything that made your family, and this country, great.
 
2012-12-13 07:57:01 AM  

Lsherm: Guntram Shatterhand: And considering the Republican base holds nothing dear (as shown by throwing their Christianity away to vote for a Mormon),

[img827.imageshack.us image 455x325]

+1 for an insanely bigoted statement that will probably be ignored.


Maybe was a troll, but can be considered seriously. Baptists and Evangelicals in the South consider Mormons to be heretics. But they voted for him anyway because he wasn't the incumbent (re: black man).
 
2012-12-13 08:10:22 AM  
so as long as your profession is deemed important enough right to work law don't apply?

it makes no sense. They're obviously just exempting cops and firefighters to avoid having to fight with them publicly. If this were the right thing to do why wouldn't it be right for cops and firemen?



if attracting businesses is the goal weakening unions wont be enough, we're competing directly with china where wages are something like 31 cents an hour and safety/environmental concerns aren't.

lets really get those jobs for Michigan and become a third world sweatshop state. Go Michigan!
 
2012-12-13 08:13:01 AM  

chuggernaught: Maybe was a troll, but can be considered seriously. Baptists and Evangelicals in the South consider Mormons to be heretics. But they voted for him anyway because he wasn't the incumbent (re: black man).


Anyone who says that Mormons are Christians doesn't understand the underlying theology of either religion. The fact that Mormonism isn't monotheistic and claims that there are innumerable gods scattered throughout the universe and that humans can ascend to godhood should make that abundantly clear.

Regarding TFA and Michigan, maybe too many people have forgotten the good that unions do and need to spend a little while being ground under the heel of corporate management.
 
2012-12-13 08:27:58 AM  

themindiswatching: The GOP plan for government:

1. Cut money to a service.
2. Service becomes so crappy that it's better to go private.
3. GOP now has an excuse to kill it entirely.
4. Repeat.

/how long until we kill public schools entirely?


See Delaware.
 
2012-12-13 08:30:46 AM  

Snarfangel: timujin: 1. If an article's headline asks a question that can be answered "no", don't bother writing the article.

Headlines that can be answered by "no" -- a good idea?


A Comment Followed by a Colon and a Question: The New Journalistic Standard?

 
2012-12-13 08:46:34 AM  
FTFA: Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know. These people risk death every day. If they strike, society risks breaking down.

Without teachers, society is certain to break down. Enjoy old age in a third-world US, you stupid republicans. 

Again:
i560.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-13 08:49:43 AM  

Lsherm: Guntram Shatterhand: And considering the Republican base holds nothing dear (as shown by throwing their Christianity away to vote for a Mormon),

[img827.imageshack.us image 455x325]

+1 for an insanely bigoted statement that will probably be ignored.


Is it bigoted? As far as I can tell, Mormonism has the same relationship to Christianity as Islam. Both religions were entirely made up by charlatans using Christianity as a scaffold.

/neither christian, muslim, nor mormon
 
2012-12-13 08:55:31 AM  
Tried to find the phrase "army of the rich" in this thread, left disappointed.
 
2012-12-13 09:14:21 AM  

beta_plus: Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"


This is what beta plus actually believes.

He believed in it so much that he posted it on a public forum.

Let that sink in, nice and deep.
 
2012-12-13 09:15:58 AM  

Muk_Man: beta_plus: Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"

I know you're a troll. But honestly, you're saying your teachers are bad, so let's kill their unions so they can't get good pay and therefore attract intelligent people to the position(some people are altruistic, but a solid pay will draw other people). Yes there are other problems with the US system, but unions aren't necessarily the problem. We have them in Canada and our schools perform quite well... I'd love to hear some educational reform policy you think would help.


American leftists are assholes who don't blink an eye at defending child rapists (see LA County & Penn State). If the violence of the protest didn't show you that directly, I'm not sure what will. Canadian leftists are not assholes and can therefore be trusted. It's as simple as that. If you have a way of "legislating away the assholeness of the American Left", I'm all ears.
 
2012-12-13 09:19:22 AM  

Uncle Tractor: FTFA: Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know. These people risk death every day. If they strike, society risks breaking down.

Without teachers, society is certain to break down. Enjoy old age in a third-world US, you stupid republicans. 

Again:
[i560.photobucket.com image 640x256]


American Public School teachers make children more stupid than if they didn't have any teachers at all. Getting rid of them would instantly make America smarter.
 
2012-12-13 09:21:29 AM  

dr_blasto: The Voice of Doom: Firefighters rush into burning buildings. Police officers venture into dangerous areas most of us never know.

Teachers can reduce the number of times firefighters and police officers have to do those things - besides reducing the things "most of us never know".


The real difference (besides "teachurs be libruls!") is the immediate, obvious feedback:
With cuts to firefighters and police, people might get hurt NOW. There'll be media attention and you'll get the blame.

But when society and economy go slowly down the shiatter, it's less obvious and people won't make a direct connection (especially if they had bad teachers) with education.
And should the shiat finally hit the fan, it'll be somebody else's problem because by then you'll have been out of office for some time. 


/related theory: "Fark you, I got mine!" means you have stuff you might be afraid to losing. And the people protecting your stuff are..?

The real reason is that police and firefighter unions tend to contribute more to Republicans.


And they tend to ne male-dominated. Can't have those uppity women in the teachers unions speaking up or anything, can we?
 
2012-12-13 09:23:49 AM  

swankywanky: beta_plus: Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"

Wow, that troll was trolled so hard I think you may have damaged the bridge.

/troll


You lost. Get Over it, child rapist apologist.
 
2012-12-13 09:41:58 AM  
I just want to say this as a concerned Canadian who frequents the politics tab.

What the fark is going on down there? Did half your country wake up retarded sometime around 2010?
 
2012-12-13 09:50:54 AM  
Everyone I like deserves to be well compensated in their professions.

Everyone I dislike should work for free.

Did I get that right?
 
2012-12-13 09:51:48 AM  

BeesNuts: Everyone I like deserves to be well compensated in their professions.

Everyone I dislike should work for free.

Did I get that right?


I think you covered it, yeah.
 
2012-12-13 09:53:04 AM  

beta_plus: Muk_Man: beta_plus: Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"

I know you're a troll. But honestly, you're saying your teachers are bad, so let's kill their unions so they can't get good pay and therefore attract intelligent people to the position(some people are altruistic, but a solid pay will draw other people). Yes there are other problems with the US system, but unions aren't necessarily the problem. We have them in Canada and our schools perform quite well... I'd love to hear some educational reform policy you think would help.

American leftists are assholes who don't blink an eye at defending child rapists (see LA County & Penn State). If the violence of the protest didn't show you that directly, I'm not sure what will. Canadian leftists are not assholes and can therefore be trusted. It's as simple as that. If you have a way of "legislating away the assholeness of the American Left", I'm all ears.


Still struggling to work your head around a center right nation electing a socialist kenyan to the whitehouse *twice*, huh?

You'll get over it.
 
2012-12-13 09:58:52 AM  

BeesNuts: You'll get over it.


He won't actually.

Hes either a racist bigot, grasping at straws with no desire to change.

or

He's a paid shill.
 
2012-12-13 10:01:21 AM  

Durga: I just want to say this as a concerned Canadian who frequents the politics tab.

What the fark is going on down there? Did half your country wake up retarded sometime around 2010?


Amazingly, some prick Aussie actually had a lot to do with the country's shift to the hard right. Add that to a lot of Southerners pissed off about a black president, and you see how things got so insane here.
 
2012-12-13 10:19:54 AM  

Raharu: BeesNuts: You'll get over it.

He won't actually.

Hes either a racist bigot, grasping at straws with no desire to change.

or

He's a paid shill.


Meh. He'll tone it down or he'll be summarily ignored, then he'll retire that jersey and trot out the next one.

Meanwhile, it's entirely possible that he gives himself an aneurism trying to work himself into a forthy enough frenzy to crank the shiathose the way he did in this thread.

/If somebody pays him for this, they are bad with money.
 
2012-12-13 11:15:36 AM  

StreetlightInTheGhetto: LordJiro: Because if the unions go, big business will have no opposition in this country. And all the progress we've made will be rolled back in no time.

It's been on the path for awhile, honestly. Granted, I'm not the happiest with the larger unions, haven't been for quite some time (although the smaller ones I've interacted with I've generally always come away with a positive experience). But they've been desperately clinging to the side of the boat to keep from drowning for awhile. And it's quite easy to see how workers have already been suffering because of it - I can't count the number of people I've met working incredibly insane hours for the privilege of not losing their job.

Contrast this to America's Hat:

[www.washingtonpost.com image 769x466] 

Of course, motherf--king health care isn't an issue on the negotiating table for Canadian unions.


We actually have a saying up here. "Companies that have unions deserve them." Generally the places that unions flourish are places that would love to treat their workers badly. And government for some reason. The provincial/federal governments up here can be a little inefficient at times. The Father in law works with the BC government trying to streamline stuff, not so much firing people, but moving the lady who double checks the computer's adding (It used to make sense when the computer was just another person, but they forgot to get rid of the position when they went digital) into doing something useful.
 
2012-12-13 01:41:14 PM  

Tyee: No one should be forced to join or not to join a union.


you're right, and it's a good things that's not the case today then, is it?

Why do I bet you think that the "Healthy Forests Act" was about planting trees and the Department of Defense has never started a war before?
 
2012-12-13 01:49:05 PM  

Lsherm: Notabunny: badhatharry: They are vital. Their forced union membership is not.

Nobody is forced to join a union.

No, but in a closed shop you're forced to pay for the union. Don't pretend otherwise.


good thing closed shops are illegal under Taft-Hartley and have been since 1948.
 
2012-12-13 01:50:54 PM  

CheapEngineer: beta_plus: Mentat: BarkingUnicorn: Not because cops and firefighters have guns and axes but teachers do not?

It's the same divide and conquer strategy Walker tried in Wisconsin. Set the unions against each other, take out the public sector unions, take out the industrial unions, and then take out the police and firefighter unions last when there's no one left to support them.

As usual, libtards try to hide their bitter tears of impotent rage by being intentionally obtuse on why having an actual skill set and doing something inherently dangerous allows one to have a sustainable and useful union.

[images.sodahead.com image 350x262]

/oh, and conveniently ignoring the 1919 Boston Police Strike

While you conveniently ignore the 1896 Philadelphia barn fire. Apparently none of you republi-tards are capable of learning from history!

\wow, that was easy


not to mention the Triangle fire, but hey who wants to?
 
2012-12-13 01:52:10 PM  

chuggernaught: Lsherm: Guntram Shatterhand: And considering the Republican base holds nothing dear (as shown by throwing their Christianity away to vote for a Mormon),

[img827.imageshack.us image 455x325]

+1 for an insanely bigoted statement that will probably be ignored.

Maybe was a troll, but can be considered seriously. Baptists and Evangelicals in the South consider Mormons to be heretics. But they voted for him anyway because he wasn't the incumbent (re: black man).


That's assuming Baptists and Evangelicals only vote based on religion, which is the same malarkey as saying black people only voted for Obama because he's black.
 
2012-12-13 01:52:15 PM  

BeesNuts: beta_plus: Muk_Man: beta_plus: Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"

I know you're a troll. But honestly, you're saying your teachers are bad, so let's kill their unions so they can't get good pay and therefore attract intelligent people to the position(some people are altruistic, but a solid pay will draw other people). Yes there are other problems with the US system, but unions aren't necessarily the problem. We have them in Canada and our schools perform quite well... I'd love to hear some educational reform policy you think would help.

American leftists are assholes who don't blink an eye at defending child rapists (see LA County & Penn State). If the violence of the protest didn't show you that directly, I'm not sure what will. Canadian leftists are not assholes and can therefore be trusted. It's as simple as that. If you have a way of "legislating away the assholeness of the American Left", I'm all ears.

Still struggling to work your head around a center right nation electing a socialist kenyan to the whitehouse *twice*, huh?

You'll get over it.


Penn State? What teachers were accused of shenanigains with little boys? Last I checked it was the football team and their backers on the university board. get your facts straight, conservatard
 
2012-12-13 02:44:27 PM  

partisan222: good thing closed shops are illegal under Taft-Hartley and have been since 1948.


Technically correct, but to a person who both wants a job and doesn't want to join a club, the distinction between "union shop" and "closed shop" is razor thin and largely an issue of semantics.
 
2012-12-13 05:48:38 PM  

partisan222: BeesNuts: beta_plus: Muk_Man: beta_plus: Obvious tag on strike?

American public school teachers suck. We pay more per student on k-12 public schools and our reward is the world's most stupid children. By any measure American public school teachers suck ass. When they aren't doing their job, they're sexually abusing the children of hispanics because they know that their parents fear having the INS called. Then after sexually abusing their children, they blame the parents!

/"We teachers need more money to do a job that when we fail miserably at it will then claim we can't do it because the parents suck - while we make their kids suck us off!"

I know you're a troll. But honestly, you're saying your teachers are bad, so let's kill their unions so they can't get good pay and therefore attract intelligent people to the position(some people are altruistic, but a solid pay will draw other people). Yes there are other problems with the US system, but unions aren't necessarily the problem. We have them in Canada and our schools perform quite well... I'd love to hear some educational reform policy you think would help.

American leftists are assholes who don't blink an eye at defending child rapists (see LA County & Penn State). If the violence of the protest didn't show you that directly, I'm not sure what will. Canadian leftists are not assholes and can therefore be trusted. It's as simple as that. If you have a way of "legislating away the assholeness of the American Left", I'm all ears.

Still struggling to work your head around a center right nation electing a socialist kenyan to the whitehouse *twice*, huh?

You'll get over it.

Penn State? What teachers were accused of shenanigains with little boys? Last I checked it was the football team and their backers on the university board. get your facts straight, conservatard


You have beta_plus on ignore, eh?
 
2012-12-13 05:52:39 PM  
beta_plus (Farkied in red. Ought to be brown.): American Public School teachers make children more stupid than if they didn't have any teachers at all. Getting rid of them would instantly make America smarter.

Are you perhaps speaking from experience with public schools?
 
2012-12-13 08:05:08 PM  

BeesNuts: You have beta_plus on ignore, eh?


Everyone should.
 
2012-12-13 10:08:28 PM  

China White Tea: partisan222: good thing closed shops are illegal under Taft-Hartley and have been since 1948.

Technically correct, but to a person who both wants a job and doesn't want to join a club, the distinction between "union shop" and "closed shop" is razor thin and largely an issue of semantics.


You can't find a job without joining a union? Fascinating.
 
2012-12-13 11:06:29 PM  

China White Tea: I feel like people should be allowed to unionize and collectively bargain over things like hours and compensation and benefits, if they so desire.

I also feel like, if someone does not want to be a part of a union, they should, in no way, be barred from getting a job on that basis alone.

I almost never see this position represented in conversations about unions, and since I'm not particularly knowledgeable about the subject, I assume I am missing something that makes it an unreasonable position... so could someone tell me what that is?


You are. Part of the union' influence and it's ability to bargain on an equal basis with the employer has to do with their power to stop work until such time as a deal is negotiated between the employees and the employer.
If the employer simply chooses to employ non-union people (and they will), this gives them the advantage, and any negotiation for wages or benefits or working conditions will disappear as the union and the workers no longer have the advantage of unity. Leverage, if you will.

Now the first question to come from someone who asks about unions as you did is usually "Well why can't the single employee negotiate?"
To that I answer with a a saying I first heard from my father, who belonged to the Transport Workers' union:
"When you walk in alone, you beg
When you walk in together, you negotiate." 
Both employee and employer should have a say in how things are run in the workplace, and neither party should ever hold all the cards. The destruction of unions, organizations without which there would never have been a "middle class" in this country, has hastened our race to the bottom like no other factor in the economy.

And that's the way the bosses like it.
 
2012-12-14 02:10:12 AM  
I just looked at the past three days' Fark politics headlines. I didn't peek in the threads.

Derp.

Derp EVERYWHERE.


WHY IN THE NAME OF F***ING GOD AM I STILL HERE STARING AT ALL THIS DERP!?

[runs around in frantic circles, screaming unhappily]

Should I just go ahead and set myself on fire too?

What is going on!?
 
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