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(Popular Mechanics)   An article about the 11 most important guns in history; to the right, the discussion they triggered   (popularmechanics.com) divider line 132
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6903 clicks; posted to Geek » on 12 Dec 2012 at 1:33 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-12 11:25:01 AM
www.seanmichaelragan.com
 
2012-12-12 11:28:52 AM
Complete list fail for missing the Sturmgewehr 44.
 
2012-12-12 11:33:32 AM
"Browning's other lasting contribution to weaponry..."

Author needs to be punched in the face for inferring Browning only gave us two good ideas.
 
2012-12-12 11:33:59 AM

Marcus Aurelius: Complete list fail for missing the Sturmgewehr 44.


Having the Ak there instead of the weapon that inspired it was indeed silly.
 
2012-12-12 11:34:16 AM
The most important gun on that list is Sir Hiram Maxim's gun, which showed that you could use the energy of the fired round to eject the spent round, load a new one, and fire continuously. That is the basic concept behind every automatic weapon since, even if they used different methods from his short recoil design (long recoil, gas operated, various forms of blowback).
 
2012-12-12 11:41:07 AM

R.A.Danny: Marcus Aurelius: Complete list fail for missing the Sturmgewehr 44.

Having the Ak there instead of the weapon that inspired it was indeed silly.


Agreed. Also, if you are goign to put one 9mm semi-auto handgun on the list I would think that the P08 (aka Luger) would have been a better choice than a Glock 17. The only thing innovative about the GLock 17 is that they finally got the polymer right and could make plastic guns. Big deal. There still has never been a finer 9mm handgun made than the P08's.
 
2012-12-12 11:53:42 AM

MikeSass: R.A.Danny: Marcus Aurelius: Complete list fail for missing the Sturmgewehr 44.

Having the Ak there instead of the weapon that inspired it was indeed silly.

Agreed. Also, if you are goign to put one 9mm semi-auto handgun on the list I would think that the P08 (aka Luger) would have been a better choice than a Glock 17. The only thing innovative about the GLock 17 is that they finally got the polymer right and could make plastic guns. Big deal. There still has never been a finer 9mm handgun made than the P08's.


Ummm, the Browning High Power? Idiot
 
2012-12-12 11:57:16 AM
I have one of those and have fired 3...4 if you want to count any number of different Glock models.
 
2012-12-12 12:05:46 PM

iq_in_binary: Ummm, the Browning High Power? Idiot


The whole list could have Browning designs on it, no need to be mean spirited.
 
2012-12-12 12:06:39 PM

R.A.Danny: Having the Ak there instead of the weapon that inspired it was indeed silly.


Which is the more important automobile: the Ford Model-T or the Olds Curved Dash?
 
2012-12-12 12:20:21 PM
Seems like the Brown Bess would deserve a spot considering its importance to the military success of history's largest empire.
 
wee [TotalFark]
2012-12-12 12:22:20 PM

Dancin_In_Anson: I have one of those and have fired 3...4 if you want to count any number of different Glock models.


Five for me. Though I've also fired a Gatling, Uzi, and an M2.

R.A.Danny: The whole list could have Browning designs on it, no need to be mean spirited.


I'd throw in the CETME, a Winchester lever action of some variety, maybe also the MG34. But yeah.
 
2012-12-12 12:33:55 PM

wee: Though I've also fired a Gatling, Uzi, and an M2.


I keep saying it...you and I need to get together and make some noise.
 
wee [TotalFark]
2012-12-12 12:42:06 PM

Dancin_In_Anson: wee: Though I've also fired a Gatling, Uzi, and an M2.

I keep saying it...you and I need to get together and make some noise.


Hell yeah we do. Here's the last noise I made: .308 tracers out of a 13 inch barrel on a G3. Gave my recently broken nose a nosebleed. :-)
 
2012-12-12 12:44:29 PM
No Remington 870 shotgun?
 
2012-12-12 12:54:11 PM
They had the Peacemaker, I'm leaving satisfied, and just a little grumpy at the other choices.
 
2012-12-12 01:00:19 PM
Seriously? Only one gun before Gatling guns? No Arquebus? Sharps Rifle? First muzzle loaders? First breech loaders?
 
vpb [TotalFark]
2012-12-12 01:29:22 PM
www.gunlistings.org

But what about firearms of cultural significance?
 
2012-12-12 01:30:52 PM
I'm sure at some point in the next 48 hours, The History Channel will have a much better countdown in the form of a 2-hour segment.
 
2012-12-12 01:31:45 PM

GAT_00: Seriously? Only one gun before Gatling guns? No Arquebus? Sharps Rifle? First muzzle loaders? First breech loaders?


GAT_00: Seriously? Only one gun before Gatling guns? No Arquebus? Sharps Rifle? First muzzle loaders? First breech loaders?


How about the Kentucky rifle? Being the first mass produced rifled barrel is a pretty big deal.
 
2012-12-12 01:36:09 PM
2.bp.blogspot.com

First to implement the floating chamber.
 
wee [TotalFark]
2012-12-12 01:36:41 PM

vpb: But what about firearms of cultural significance?


I always wanted to weld a bayonet onto a Jennings or a Lorcin...
 
2012-12-12 01:39:45 PM
That list sucked. yeah, those guns are interesting but only 2- the maxim and AK- would really count as most important guns in history considering their wider impact. the gatling gun barely even registers, even if you do count its modern cousins.
 
2012-12-12 01:41:18 PM

jbuist: "Browning's other lasting contribution to weaponry..."

Author needs to be punched shot in the face for inferring Browning only gave us two good ideas.


C'mon, don't be a pussy
 
2012-12-12 01:41:57 PM

Sybarite: Seems like the Brown Bess would deserve a spot considering its importance to the military success of history's largest empire.


I'd generalize it to the flintlock, not just Brown Bess.

Flintlocks were the height of firearms technology for 200 years. They allowed a person to keep a loaded, primed, ready to fire gun without the dead giveaway of smoldering match and without the delicate mechanism and expense of a wheellock. They were also more effective in the rain than they get credit for: With a little bit of forethought you can shoot a flintlock in all but the worse downpours, something you couldn't do with either a matchlock or a wheellock.

Hell, just this last Saturday, I spent all morning hunting with my flintlock in a light rain. Yet the gun went *BOOM* when I fired it.

So yeah, the flintlock absolutely should have been on that list. It should *TOP* that list, because all of the wars fought between 1650 and 1850 were fought with them.
 
2012-12-12 01:43:18 PM
The Kentucky long rifle, the Remington 700 series and sharps are missing
 
2012-12-12 01:43:28 PM
upload.wikimedia.org

World's first assault rifle. Meriwether Lewis used this to impress upon the aboriginals the benefits of being our friend, rather than our enemy.
 
2012-12-12 01:48:13 PM
 
2012-12-12 01:48:34 PM

sammyk: GAT_00: Seriously? Only one gun before Gatling guns? No Arquebus? Sharps Rifle? First muzzle loaders? First breech loaders?

GAT_00: Seriously? Only one gun before Gatling guns? No Arquebus? Sharps Rifle? First muzzle loaders? First breech loaders?

How about the Kentucky rifle? Being the first mass produced rifled barrel is a pretty big deal.


They weren't mass produced. They were individually hand made, and they weren't the first, either: They were preceded by the German/Swiss jaeger rifles, which were brought over to the colonies by German immigrants. Those American-made jaeger rifles then gradually got longer and of smaller caliber, and took on some aspects of the English fowling guns, to become the classic American longrifle.

My gun is a transitional longrifle: halfway between a colonial jaeger and a golden age longrifle.
 
2012-12-12 01:49:20 PM

Mid_mo_mad_man: The Kentucky long rifle, the Remington 700 series and sharps are missing


My vote is for flintlocks in general, not just a particular kind of flintlock.
 
2012-12-12 01:50:52 PM
I'd vote for the dreyse needle gun
 
2012-12-12 01:51:20 PM
I've fired 3 of those, 4 if you count a Colt Peacemaker replica. I've also observed firing of a M2 and a Gatling.
 
2012-12-12 01:51:30 PM

NowhereMon: lassister.jpeg


The discussions which ensued:
www.usnewsblock.com
 
2012-12-12 01:54:15 PM
Thought it was going to be *specific* guns, so I was hoping to see the gun that killed Lincoln and the rifle that killed Archduke Ferdinand...
 
2012-12-12 01:54:57 PM

Tarl3k: the rifle that killed Archduke Ferdinand...


Wha?
 
2012-12-12 01:54:59 PM
I qualified on the M2 when I was in the service. Fired the AK, but I preferred the M14.

No Glock should be on that list, or any list besides "biggest fanboy gun" or possibly "gun most likely to exhibit grenading slide rails."
 
2012-12-12 01:56:32 PM

Tarl3k: Archduke Ferdinand


assuming we're talking about old franz, he got shot with a pistol
 
2012-12-12 01:57:55 PM

Rent Party: I qualified on the M2 when I was in the service. Fired the AK, but I preferred the M14.

No Glock should be on that list, or any list besides "biggest fanboy gun" or possibly "gun most likely to exhibit grenading slide rails."


Gaston Glock was the Steve Jobs of the gun world.

/Considerably more bad-ass, though.
 
2012-12-12 01:59:25 PM

dittybopper:
Gaston Glock was the Steve Jobs of the gun world.


Consider that stolen, as I'm gonna repeat it everywhere.


/Considerably more bad-ass, though.

I'll give the old guy credit for that!

 
2012-12-12 02:00:11 PM

Tarl3k: rifle that killed Archduke Ferdinand...


Handgun. FN Model 1910 in .32 ACP. Designed by... John Moses Browning.
 
2012-12-12 02:00:26 PM

Rent Party: I qualified on the M2 when I was in the service. Fired the AK, but I preferred the M14.

No Glock should be on that list, or any list besides "biggest fanboy gun" or possibly "gun most likely to exhibit grenading slide rails."


It started the trend toward polymer framed guns, something that makes up a good potion of the world handgun market, and basically became the definitive style for police work, and self defense, in many countries.

Although, I vastly prefer my Springfield XD to any glock.
 
2012-12-12 02:01:47 PM

tlchwi02: Tarl3k: Archduke Ferdinand

assuming we're talking about old franz, he got shot with a pistol


Sorry, my bad. I thought he was killed from a distance, herpa derpa...
 
2012-12-12 02:04:40 PM

Tarl3k: Sorry, my bad. I thought he was killed from a distance, herpa derpa...


he actually almost got blown up. the original plan was to hit him with a grenade type attack. it was pure dumb luck (and some bad decision making) that he ended up back out in the city and stopped right in front of one of the would be assassins.
 
2012-12-12 02:07:38 PM

tlchwi02: he actually almost got blown up. the original plan was to hit him with a grenade type attack. it was pure dumb luck (and some bad decision making) that he ended up back out in the city and stopped right in front of one of the would be assassins.


Ah, cool. Thanks, I am a bit of a retard today
 
2012-12-12 02:19:06 PM

Rent Party: dittybopper:
Gaston Glock was the Steve Jobs of the gun world.


Consider that stolen, as I'm gonna repeat it everywhere.


Awesome.
 
2012-12-12 02:22:20 PM

iq_in_binary: MikeSass: R.A.Danny: Marcus Aurelius: Complete list fail for missing the Sturmgewehr 44.

Having the Ak there instead of the weapon that inspired it was indeed silly.

Agreed. Also, if you are goign to put one 9mm semi-auto handgun on the list I would think that the P08 (aka Luger) would have been a better choice than a Glock 17. The only thing innovative about the GLock 17 is that they finally got the polymer right and could make plastic guns. Big deal. There still has never been a finer 9mm handgun made than the P08's.

Ummm, the Browning High Power? Idiot


You think "Ummm, the browning high power" is a sentence, but have the nads to call someone else an idiot.
 
2012-12-12 02:22:53 PM
The Colt might have been the most widely used handgun in the old west, but the shotgun was way more common and infinitely more important.
 
2012-12-12 02:24:02 PM

dittybopper: Rent Party: I qualified on the M2 when I was in the service. Fired the AK, but I preferred the M14.

No Glock should be on that list, or any list besides "biggest fanboy gun" or possibly "gun most likely to exhibit grenading slide rails."

Gaston Glock was the Steve Jobs of the gun world.

/Considerably more bad-ass, though.


But ehe engages in some shady business practices.


/That list was awful.
 
2012-12-12 02:26:26 PM

Rent Party: I qualified on the M2 when I was in the service. Fired the AK, but I preferred the M14.

No Glock should be on that list, or any list besides "biggest fanboy gun" or possibly "gun most likely to exhibit grenading slide rails."


It probably should. Glocks became the standard firearm of police, security services, etc and started the trend of quantity over quality. Good and Bad doesn't enter into it, Glocks started a trend that changed the image of police with revolvers to police with semi-autos.
 
2012-12-12 02:32:25 PM
List fails without the BFG 9000.

/hey, it's the geek tab, right?
 
2012-12-12 02:35:42 PM
Wow, a lot of significant guns missing from that list:

1. The Brown Bess
2. Spencer repeating rifle
3. Mauser 98
4. MG-42
5. FN-FAL

Just off the top of my head.
 
2012-12-12 02:36:27 PM
AK-47? I thought that name had been abandoned and it's called AKM.

(could be wrong).
 
2012-12-12 02:37:20 PM

Tarl3k: tlchwi02: Tarl3k: Archduke Ferdinand

assuming we're talking about old franz, he got shot with a pistol

Sorry, my bad. I thought he was killed from a distance, herpa derpa...


Princip did use a handgun, but the guy on the grassy knoll did, indeed, use a rifle.
 
2012-12-12 02:54:19 PM

R.A.Danny: Marcus Aurelius: Complete list fail for missing the Sturmgewehr 44.

Having the Ak there instead of the weapon that inspired it was indeed silly.


I disagree; yes, the MP44 was a world-changing weapon concept, but the weapon itself was little used
because the Germans couldn't produce very many of them.

There will be people using AKs well into the 22nd century, so many were made.

/Overall, I think the list is pretty good, actually.
 
2012-12-12 02:54:45 PM

ScotterOtter: The Colt might have been the most widely used handgun in the old west, but the shotgun was way more common and infinitely more important.


And the first semi-auto shotgun was invented by...John Moses Browning, the Browning Auto-5.
 
2012-12-12 02:57:11 PM

dittybopper: sammyk: GAT_00: Seriously? Only one gun before Gatling guns? No Arquebus? Sharps Rifle? First muzzle loaders? First breech loaders?

GAT_00: Seriously? Only one gun before Gatling guns? No Arquebus? Sharps Rifle? First muzzle loaders? First breech loaders?

How about the Kentucky rifle? Being the first mass produced rifled barrel is a pretty big deal.

They weren't mass produced. They were individually hand made, and they weren't the first, either: They were preceded by the German/Swiss jaeger rifles, which were brought over to the colonies by German immigrants. Those American-made jaeger rifles then gradually got longer and of smaller caliber, and took on some aspects of the English fowling guns, to become the classic American longrifle.

My gun is a transitional longrifle: halfway between a colonial jaeger and a golden age longrifle.


I freely admit to not being an expert on the subject and mass produced was probably the wrong phrase. But I always thought the manufacturing processed was a shared thing where all the various gunsmiths were doing the same thing. I also thought the accuracy and availability of the Kentucky rifle was one of the reasons the civil war had so many casualties. Could be wrong, I learned history in the public school system.

I do know it was not the first rifled barrel. My larger point was that rifling fundamentally changed firearms forever and the article completely ignored that advancement.
 
2012-12-12 02:59:36 PM

wee: Dancin_In_Anson: I have one of those and have fired 3...4 if you want to count any number of different Glock models.

Five for me. Though I've also fired a Gatling, Uzi, and an M2.

R.A.Danny: The whole list could have Browning designs on it, no need to be mean spirited.

I'd throw in the CETME, a Winchester lever action of some variety, maybe also the MG34. But yeah.


Never got to fire it, but my buddy had one of these...http://world.guns.ru/machine/usa/browning-m1917-m1919-e.html Browning M1917

His dad grew up an Army brat, spent a lot of time in Germany, and dug this up, along with two bayonets in a field he used to play in. The thing was ready to fire, my friend even had the clips for the ammo, we just didn't have the funky dummy round you initially load it with, nor the tripod. It looked totally cool sitting next to the TV, and freaked quite a few people out when you informed them that it was definitely real, and was definitely in firing condition.

His dad also had a WWII Luger that I DID get to fire one time, it was pretty nice. This one he didn't find in a field though, he had to pay serious money for that puppy. Even had the swastika emblem on the grips.
As for the list, I've fired a Springfield version of the Colt 1911, and some version of Glock. For semiauto rifles though, I'm pretty satisfied with my SKS. 

EDIT: Good thing I hit 'Preview', and not 'Add Comment', since the link thing isn't working, sorry about that.
 
2012-12-12 03:00:14 PM
STG44 instead of AK47(considering the STG made the soviets go WE NEED ONE OF THOSE! you could argue one would not exist without the other)
MP18 instead of Uzi(or if you want to go with "popular SMG" make it the MP5)

Strangely, because of the impact it had on law enforcement and handgun design, I agree with the glock being on there. It changed the way we looked at handguns, and took police officers from having .38 revolvers as standard issue to high capacity semi-auto glocks. I hate glocks personally, but I can't argue against the impact the design had.

The XM-25 is not a gun, it's a bloody grenade launcher. And really it's just natural evolution of the weapons platform. WTF is it doing there?
 
2012-12-12 03:04:22 PM

DjangoStonereaver: R.A.Danny: Marcus Aurelius: Complete list fail for missing the Sturmgewehr 44.

Having the Ak there instead of the weapon that inspired it was indeed silly.

I disagree; yes, the MP44 was a world-changing weapon concept, but the weapon itself was little used
because the Germans couldn't produce very many of them.

There will be people using AKs well into the 22nd century, so many were made.

/Overall, I think the list is pretty good, actually.


It's been a fine discussion starter, that's for sure.

My list would be all Browning designs, so I may be a teensy bit biased.
 
2012-12-12 03:05:23 PM
the reason the AK is on the list is because any one with common sense and a little knowledge can build one..........

example (waits for Cali to ban shovels)

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/179192-DIY-Shovel- A K-photo-tsunami-warning


/list fails with out the STG 44 or Grease Gun
//or without the Tommy Gun
 
2012-12-12 03:09:30 PM

Team Nemesis: Tommy Gun


That argument may be made.
 
2012-12-12 03:15:54 PM

R.A.Danny: Team Nemesis: Tommy Gun

That argument may be made.


Hmmm.....

I'll give you that as a valid gap.

The Thompson wasn't the first portable automatic weapon (the BAR and Bergmann MP 18 both
predate it), but it was the first mass-marketed one, and unlike the MP44 was sold widely and
influenced later designs either directly or as what NOT to do (IE, make the weapons less mechanically
complex).
 
2012-12-12 03:30:39 PM
I met John Browning's grandson (or at least on of them) in October, so I am getting a kick...

/Was a cool dude, living the dream. At the time he was in Santa Cruz, spending a month at a condo on the beach.
//He's married to my wife's, friend's, husband's, mom...so ya know, we are practically brothers.
 
2012-12-12 03:31:32 PM

DjangoStonereaver: The Thompson wasn't the first portable automatic weapon (the BAR and Bergmann MP 18 both
predate it), but it was the first mass-marketed one, and unlike the MP44 was sold widely and
influenced later designs either directly or as what NOT to do (IE, make the weapons less mechanically
complex).


plus, if we're arguing history, its had a pretty big impact on popular culture. thanks to its association with american gangsters and how iconic they've been made by hollywood, its an incredibly iconic historical item.
 
2012-12-12 03:47:33 PM

DjangoStonereaver: R.A.Danny: Team Nemesis: Tommy Gun

That argument may be made.

Hmmm.....

I'll give you that as a valid gap.

The Thompson wasn't the first portable automatic weapon (the BAR and Bergmann MP 18 both
predate it), but it was the first mass-marketed one, and unlike the MP44 was sold widely and
influenced later designs either directly or as what NOT to do (IE, make the weapons less mechanically
complex).


The tommy was not mechanically complex, the Uzi is literally a scaled down carbon copy of the action design, it was just expensive as fark to manufacture because it was all milled, no stamped or formed parts whatsoever. If you want a modern day Thompson? Go buy am ingraham or an Uzi, plenty of shady companies make them.
 
2012-12-12 03:52:12 PM
List fails without the M1819 Hall rifle. The first mass produced gun adopted by the American army.

/I want one so bad.
 
2012-12-12 03:59:44 PM
Before video games I only knew about civilian guns. Now with FPS games, I have a new appreciation for SMGs and grenade launchers. But only as a passing interest, I would like to fire some of them but have no interest in using them for their intended purpose. Unless in a video game.

I was hoping to see the .50 cal sniper rifle and the S&W model 29/629.
 
2012-12-12 04:00:08 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Complete list fail for missing the Sturmgewehr 44.


That's not American, so it didn't make the token non-American spot.
 
2012-12-12 04:01:40 PM

iq_in_binary: DjangoStonereaver: R.A.Danny: Team Nemesis: Tommy Gun

That argument may be made.

Hmmm.....

I'll give you that as a valid gap.

The Thompson wasn't the first portable automatic weapon (the BAR and Bergmann MP 18 both
predate it), but it was the first mass-marketed one, and unlike the MP44 was sold widely and
influenced later designs either directly or as what NOT to do (IE, make the weapons less mechanically
complex).

The tommy was not mechanically complex, the Uzi is literally a scaled down carbon copy of the action design, it was just expensive as fark to manufacture because it was all milled, no stamped or formed parts whatsoever. If you want a modern day Thompson? Go buy am ingraham or an Uzi, plenty of shady companies make them.


Not being mechanically inclined, I always assumed the Thompson's propensity for jamming due to
dirt and powder residue build up was due to the mechanism design.
 
2012-12-12 04:03:00 PM
images1.pcgamesn.com

/ list fails without?
 
2012-12-12 04:10:47 PM
I am not going to click through a slideshow. My initial list

Colt Peace Maker/Navy
Henry RIfle
K98
M1911
Maxim
STG44
Shosho

/added the last one to see if anyone is paying attention
 
2012-12-12 04:15:33 PM

MikeSass: There still has never been a finer 9mm handgun made than the P08's.


Not a chance in hell.

The P08 Luger has its following, but the dearth of current production (and the generally small production compared to other designs like the High Power and P38) of the Luger shows that it wasn't really that good a gun. The toggle linkage was finicky and not disposed to reliability as the tilting barrel Browning action.

Saiga410: Shosho


IIRC, it's spelled Chauchat.
 
2012-12-12 04:16:59 PM
Came to see the "right arm of the free world" (the FN FAL), left disappointed. The STG44 is more deserving of a place in that list than the AK-47.
 
2012-12-12 04:17:34 PM
I was glad to see the Ma Deuce on the list as it was everywhere in the us forces in World war II on aircraft and tanks and trucks , jeeps and even used by the infantry.

The list does fail on many counts though.

For example i would have dropped the Glock and replaced it with the Henry Rifle aka "that damned Yankee rifle that they load on Sunday and shoot all week!"
 
2012-12-12 04:18:55 PM
Most important gun?

clearly you mean Chekhov's
 
2012-12-12 04:21:32 PM

Saiga410: I am not going to click through a slideshow. ***snip***


This is posted to the Geek tab ferchrissakes: desli.de
 
2012-12-12 04:22:40 PM

PedanticSimpleton: Came to see the "right arm of the free world" (the FN FAL), left disappointed. The STG44 is more deserving of a place in that list than the AK-47.


yeah this list was more "some guns that americans might recognize" then "actual guns with real historical impact." The historical impact of anything on the list is obviously just incidental.
 
2012-12-12 04:25:48 PM

Strategeryz0r: The XM-25 is not a gun, it's a bloody grenade launcher. And really it's just natural evolution of the weapons platform. WTF is it doing there?


No, it's a gun because it fires an integrated round, like any common pistol or rifle. The bullet just happens to have a computerized fuse and an explosive charge. It belongs on this list because it is a game changer, same as the other entries.
 
2012-12-12 04:28:14 PM

Stone Meadow: Strategeryz0r: The XM-25 is not a gun, it's a bloody grenade launcher. And really it's just natural evolution of the weapons platform. WTF is it doing there?

No, it's a gun because it fires an integrated round, like any common pistol or rifle. The bullet just happens to have a computerized fuse and an explosive charge. It belongs on this list because it is a game changer, same as the other entries.


It wont be a game changer until it becomes financially feasible to deploy on a large scale. It's a cool toy right now, but at 30k it's just not a good investment regardless of it's capabilities. That's WAY too expensive for an infantry weapon.
 
2012-12-12 04:29:09 PM

PedanticSimpleton: Came to see the "right arm of the free world" (the FN FAL), left disappointed. The STG44 is more deserving of a place in that list than the AK-47.


STG 44 created the concept, but the influence of the AK 47 on war cannot be underestimated. It's literately the universal assault rifle for much of the world. It's pretty much fool proof as well, the ultimate peasant weapon.
 
2012-12-12 04:31:24 PM
Missing from list

ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2012-12-12 04:34:10 PM

Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: Strategeryz0r: The XM-25 is not a gun, it's a bloody grenade launcher. And really it's just natural evolution of the weapons platform. WTF is it doing there?

No, it's a gun because it fires an integrated round, like any common pistol or rifle. The bullet just happens to have a computerized fuse and an explosive charge. It belongs on this list because it is a game changer, same as the other entries.

It wont be a game changer until it becomes financially feasible to deploy on a large scale. It's a cool toy right now, but at 30k it's just not a good investment regardless of it's capabilities. That's WAY too expensive for an infantry weapon.


In 1991 it cost about $4K to equip a light infantry soldier. That is about $6,500 today. I'm reasonably certain that number has gone up considerably with the common use of night vision and other higher tech equipment. $30K is too high for general deployment, but I don't think $10K would be too much to issue at the squad level.
 
2012-12-12 04:35:01 PM

Antimatter: PedanticSimpleton: Came to see the "right arm of the free world" (the FN FAL), left disappointed. The STG44 is more deserving of a place in that list than the AK-47.

STG 44 created the concept, but the influence of the AK 47 on war cannot be underestimated. It's literately the universal assault rifle for much of the world. It's pretty much fool proof as well, the ultimate peasant weapon.


It's arguable that the AK wouldn't exist without the STG 44 though. The effectiveness of the weapon prompted the Soviets to design their own, which brought us to the AK47. It's essentially an argument about what's more important? Creation of the concept? Or evolution of said concept?
 
2012-12-12 04:36:35 PM

Rent Party: Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: Strategeryz0r: The XM-25 is not a gun, it's a bloody grenade launcher. And really it's just natural evolution of the weapons platform. WTF is it doing there?

No, it's a gun because it fires an integrated round, like any common pistol or rifle. The bullet just happens to have a computerized fuse and an explosive charge. It belongs on this list because it is a game changer, same as the other entries.

It wont be a game changer until it becomes financially feasible to deploy on a large scale. It's a cool toy right now, but at 30k it's just not a good investment regardless of it's capabilities. That's WAY too expensive for an infantry weapon.

In 1991 it cost about $4K to equip a light infantry soldier. That is about $6,500 today. I'm reasonably certain that number has gone up considerably with the common use of night vision and other higher tech equipment. $30K is too high for general deployment, but I don't think $10K would be too much to issue at the squad level.


Exactly. It'll be a game changer when it becomes viable for larger scale deployment. As it stands it's a toy that a handful of units get the privilege of playing with. Hardly anything worthy of being "one of the most important guns in history."
 
2012-12-12 04:40:39 PM

grimlock1972: I was glad to see the Ma Deuce on the list as it was everywhere in the us forces in World war II on aircraft and tanks and trucks , jeeps and even used by the infantry.

The list does fail on many counts though.

For example i would have dropped the Glock and replaced it with the Henry Rifle aka "that damned Yankee rifle that they load on Sunday and shoot all week!"


It's hard to narrow this down to just 10/11 weapons though. The Henry should be on there, but also stuff like the brown bess musket, the FAL, etc.

The Glock, for better or worse, did change policework, as others pointed out. Police forces went from being armed with 6 sot .38 revolvers to being armed with cheap, glock polymer semi-autos. Later gunmakers also started offering polymer pistols, and they became popular for CHL use as well.
 
2012-12-12 04:46:34 PM

Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: Strategeryz0r: The XM-25 is not a gun,

It belongs on this list because it is a game changer, same as the other entries.

It wont be a game changer until it becomes financially feasible to deploy on a large scale. It's a cool toy right now, but at 30k it's just not a good investment regardless of it's capabilities. That's WAY too expensive for an infantry weapon.


Sure, the XM-25 is expensive now, but give it two years and it will be in every squad.

Also, one dead grunt is about $300,000 in direct costs, so if one in ten saves a life they have paid for themselves.
 
2012-12-12 04:47:20 PM

Strategeryz0r: Antimatter: PedanticSimpleton: Came to see the "right arm of the free world" (the FN FAL), left disappointed. The STG44 is more deserving of a place in that list than the AK-47.

STG 44 created the concept, but the influence of the AK 47 on war cannot be underestimated. It's literately the universal assault rifle for much of the world. It's pretty much fool proof as well, the ultimate peasant weapon.

It's arguable that the AK wouldn't exist without the STG 44 though. The effectiveness of the weapon prompted the Soviets to design their own, which brought us to the AK47. It's essentially an argument about what's more important? Creation of the concept? Or evolution of said concept?


It's really an ether or I'd think. One created the concept, the other made it the universal norm.
 
2012-12-12 04:49:38 PM

DjangoStonereaver: iq_in_binary: DjangoStonereaver: R.A.Danny: Team Nemesis: Tommy Gun

That argument may be made.

Hmmm.....

I'll give you that as a valid gap.

The Thompson wasn't the first portable automatic weapon (the BAR and Bergmann MP 18 both
predate it), but it was the first mass-marketed one, and unlike the MP44 was sold widely and
influenced later designs either directly or as what NOT to do (IE, make the weapons less mechanically
complex).

The tommy was not mechanically complex, the Uzi is literally a scaled down carbon copy of the action design, it was just expensive as fark to manufacture because it was all milled, no stamped or formed parts whatsoever. If you want a modern day Thompson? Go buy am ingraham or an Uzi, plenty of shady companies make them.

Not being mechanically inclined, I always assumed the Thompson's propensity for jamming due to
dirt and powder residue build up was due to the mechanism design.


It was due to the archaic breach block used in the first 20 years of its history, they switched breach blocks once a more efficient design was pointed out to them for the gearing up involved to head over to the European front during WWII. The design they switched over to has been the basic building block of every SMG since, aside from the offset blocks used in say the modern KRIS. But even they are stealing from the same tommy design, they're just using a little more gas to drive a weight downwards in the gun to offset recoil. The same goes for pretty much any modern handgun, they're all stealing design points from Browning, either in his short or long recoil actions. Same goes for shotguns or machine guns. We're all stealing from browning one way or another. Either that or Mauser.
 
2012-12-12 04:49:48 PM

Stone Meadow: Sure, the XM-25 is expensive now, but give it two years and it will be in every squad.

Also, one dead grunt is about $300,000 in direct costs, so if one in ten saves a life they have paid for themselves.


That's an interesting way of looking at it. Arguable that it saves money by not having to use say.. a JDAM to clear fortified positions.

Antimatter: It's really an ether or I'd think. One created the concept, the other made it the universal norm.


Right, but the real question is would the AK even exist without the STG44? Kind of a what's more important? The chicken or the egg?
 
2012-12-12 04:57:30 PM

Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: Sure, the XM-25 is expensive now, but give it two years and it will be in every squad.

Also, one dead grunt is about $300,000 in direct costs, so if one in ten saves a life they have paid for themselves.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. Arguable that it saves money by not having to use say.. a JDAM to clear fortified positions.

Antimatter: It's really an ether or I'd think. One created the concept, the other made it the universal norm.

Right, but the real question is would the AK even exist without the STG44? Kind of a what's more important? The chicken or the egg?


Another way to look at it would be would the STG-44 exist without the SVT-40 Tokarev rifle?
 
2012-12-12 05:00:32 PM
the Coffee Mill gun of the civil war predated the gatling by about half a year. And the BAR and Lewis Gun were the first two light portable machine guns and they were valuable. As other earlier noted, what about the MP43/StG44. What about the Sharpes repeating carbine and the later guns modeled after it (revolutionized rifle's worldwide and cavalry tactics. It won the US Gettysburg and Cold Harbor). Also what about the Mauser 98 used from 1898-1945 (models 98A's in the beginning till the 98K's of WW2). The AR-15/AR-10's (original variant, not the later modified ones used in Nam) were revolutionary as well as the modern day IWI TAR-21 assault rifle, considered the best modern assault rifle on the market and the best bulpub by a large margin. Also the belgian P90 PDW is also revolutionary with its top loading bulpub design. And don't forget the Calico Helicon Magazine guns that they are suing the chinese for patent violations. This article is very suspect
 
2012-12-12 05:09:17 PM

Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: ***snip***

Right, but the real question is would the AK even exist without the STG44? Kind of a what's more important? The chicken or the egg?


I am way out of my league here as far as gun design/history, but, this being Fark, was the design/concept of the STG44 so unique that it is unlikely as similar weapon wouldn't ever have been developed?

Now, you could easily counter that the AK would not have appeared as early or easily as it did, but to imply that the concept of a cheap, durable, select fire assault rifle would never have been put into practice without the STG44 as a template seems wrong.
 
2012-12-12 05:12:48 PM

roc6783: Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: ***snip***

Right, but the real question is would the AK even exist without the STG44? Kind of a what's more important? The chicken or the egg?

I am way out of my league here as far as gun design/history, but, this being Fark, was the design/concept of the STG44 so unique that it is unlikely as similar weapon wouldn't ever have been developed?

Now, you could easily counter that the AK would not have appeared as early or easily as it did, but to imply that the concept of a cheap, durable, select fire assault rifle would never have been put into practice without the STG44 as a template seems wrong.


The AK47 was basically the Soviets response to the STG44. Even though the STG44 saw relatively limited deployment by German forces, as it was crafted late in the war when Germany's manufacturing was already massively crippled, every participant in the war saw what they were trying to do with it. It was obvious from the get go that a weapon in between a standard high caliber battle rifle, and a low caliber SMG, had the capacity to change warfare as we know it.

So the Soviet's went into full on R&D mode to create their own variant of what was to be called "the assault rifle." It just so happens that they did what the germans couldn't, and created a cheap, easily mass produced, highly effective, incredibly reliable weapon.

Like I said it goes both ways, you have arguments on both sides as to which is more important. But it is very easy to argue that the AK may not have existed without the STG coming first. Or it may have come later. Who knows!

/by no means a gun expert, this is my interpretation of the history behind these weapons. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me and call me dumbass.
 
2012-12-12 05:13:28 PM

roc6783: I am way out of my league here as far as gun design/history, but, this being Fark, was the design/concept of the STG44 so unique that it is unlikely as similar weapon wouldn't ever have been developed?

Now, you could easily counter that the AK would not have appeared as early or easily as it did, but to imply that the concept of a cheap, durable, select fire assault rifle would never have been put into practice without the STG44 as a template seems wrong.


its more of a without the STG44 would any of the people who made decisions about military weapons and tactics ever have actually given these weapons a chance?
 
2012-12-12 05:17:52 PM

Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: Sure, the XM-25 is expensive now, but give it two years and it will be in every squad. Also, one dead grunt is about $300,000 in direct costs, so if one in ten saves a life they have paid for themselves.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. Arguable that it saves money by not having to use say.. a JDAM to clear fortified positions.


The beautiful thing about the XM-25 is that you don't need to call in a fast mover or a helo. The first time you don't have to you pay for the weapon. And it's right there, fireable in less than 15 seconds versus 15 minutes minimum, and that if air support is close by.

list of combat aircraft flight cost per hour
from various sources and their claims:
Gripen $3,000 - $4,500 USD
F-16 approximately $5,000 USD
Rafale $16,000 USD
F-22 $19,000-$40,000 USD
F-15C $17,000-$30,000 USD
Eurofighter Typhoon - $14,000 USD


Not to mention the JDAM cost of $40,000 each.

Attack helos cost about as much per hour as a fighter, and Hellfire II's are $70,000 each.
 
2012-12-12 05:21:22 PM

roc6783: Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: ***snip***

Right, but the real question is would the AK even exist without the STG44? Kind of a what's more important? The chicken or the egg?

I am way out of my league here as far as gun design/history, but, this being Fark, was the design/concept of the STG44 so unique that it is unlikely as similar weapon wouldn't ever have been developed?

Now, you could easily counter that the AK would not have appeared as early or easily as it did, but to imply that the concept of a cheap, durable, select fire assault rifle would never have been put into practice without the STG44 as a template seems wrong.


What the STG did that was unique was the shortened rifle cartridge. A lot of others at the time had semi and select fire rifle but they all used full size rifle cartridges.
 
2012-12-12 05:29:04 PM

jedihirsch: the Coffee Mill gun of the civil war predated the gatling by about half a year. And the BAR and Lewis Gun were the first two light portable machine guns and they were valuable. As other earlier noted, what about the MP43/StG44. What about the Sharpes repeating carbine and the later guns modeled after it (revolutionized rifle's worldwide and cavalry tactics. It won the US Gettysburg and Cold Harbor). Also what about the Mauser 98 used from 1898-1945 (models 98A's in the beginning till the 98K's of WW2). The AR-15/AR-10's (original variant, not the later modified ones used in Nam) were revolutionary as well as the modern day IWI TAR-21 assault rifle, considered the best modern assault rifle on the market and the best bulpub by a large margin. Also the belgian P90 PDW is also revolutionary with its top loading bulpub design. And don't forget the Calico Helicon Magazine guns that they are suing the chinese for patent violations. This article is very suspect


My husband would love talking to you. I still stand by my statement that the M1819 Hall rifle needs to be on the list, but many of the ones you listed do as well. I could also make a good case for the 1891 Mosin-Nagant, since slight variations of the Mosin design have been in continuous combat use since the rifle was first introduced (currently being used as one of the primary weapons of the insurgents in Afghanistan and Iraq).
 
2012-12-12 05:31:14 PM
My list of important guns, and why:

1. The hand cannon. The beginning of modern firearms.
2. The matchlock musket (arquebus) had the first practical trigger system and made the musket a formidable weapon.
3. The flintlock musket, of which the British Land Pattern Musket was the most produced, most widely-used, and most important.
4. The Chassepot and the von Dreyse needle guns - two early breech-loading designs adopted into military use. Later rifle designs owe much to the Chassepot, especially.
5. The Springfield model 1861 muzzle-loading Rifle Musket, firing Minie ball ammunition. Percussion cap replaces flintlock. Used extensively throughout the American Civil War.
6. The Colt 1851 Navy Revolver - a revolution in firepower. Widespread military use on several continents.
7. The Gatling Gun - human-powered rapid-fire weapon
8. The Maxim Gun - self-powered rapid-fire weapon
9. Colt M1911 and the Luger 1908 - both were technological breakthrus; both were designed to use new types of ammo; .45 ACP and 9x19 Parabellum, respectively.
10. The M1 Garand - first semi-automatic rifle issued to military forces
11. Stg44 - first modern assault rifle
13. The FN P90 - modern submachine gun with many newer technologies - ultracompact bullpup design, top-feeding magazine with rounds stored perpendicular to the barrel/bolt

Narrowing the list to 10 might be tough.
 
wee [TotalFark]
2012-12-12 05:31:46 PM

Mikey1969: Never got to fire it, but my buddy had one of these... Browning M1917

His dad grew up an Army brat, spent a lot of time in Germany, and dug this up, along with two bayonets in a field he used to play in. The thing was ready to fire, my friend even had the clips for the ammo, we just didn't have the funky dummy round you initially load it with, nor the tripod. It looked totally cool sitting next to the TV, and freaked quite a few people out when you informed them that it was definitely real, and was definitely in firing condition.


I've got a pair of Browning 1919A4s, they are most definitely bad-ass. Always wanted to shoot the 1917, though.

Your friend had better be careful with it. Did his dad every get any paperwork done on it (like bring-back forms, NFA registration, etc)? If not, he might be in possession of an illegal NFA weapon. That's 5 years in prison and a $250K fine if the ATF finds out about it. I'd contact a lawyer who specializes in the NFA if I were him. And I'd hide that thing until I did. The NFA is not a law you want to trifle with -- at all.

If he can get his paperwork straightened out, he most certainly ought to shoot it. Tell him to head over to either http://beltfedshooters.com or http://1919a4.com. Lots of good info and advice on both sites. They'd love pics, too.
 
2012-12-12 05:40:47 PM
Surprised not to see the Tommy gun on there.
Although I agree with having the AK over the STG. While the STG was first, it saw limited battlefield use. The AK on the other hand, has been present in one form or another in pretty much every war or conflict since it was introduced.
 
2012-12-12 05:52:55 PM

tlchwi02: roc6783:***snip***

its more of a without the STG44 would any of the people who made decisions about military weapons and tactics ever have actually given these weapons a chance?


I'll buy that.

Strategeryz0r: roc6783: Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: ***snip***

/by no means a gun expert, this is my interpretation of the history behind these weapons. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me and call me dumbass.


I do not have the knowledge on this subject to call you a dumbass, but from everything here and other sources, I think the 2 guns are inseparable as the STG44 was a proof of concept that gave the Russians the impetus to try and make one on their own. In their own development, the Russians just happened to hit a formula that worked 750 millions guns well.

Saiga410: roc6783: Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: ***snip***

What the STG did that was unique was the shortened rifle cartridge. A lot of others at the time had semi and select fire rifle but they all used full size rifle cartridges.


Which I think would have been developed or at least thought of at some point without the STG, but the fact that it had already been proven to work really opened the door.
 
2012-12-12 05:56:16 PM

tlchwi02: roc6783: I am way out of my league here as far as gun design/history, but, this being Fark, was the design/concept of the STG44 so unique that it is unlikely as similar weapon wouldn't ever have been developed?

Now, you could easily counter that the AK would not have appeared as early or easily as it did, but to imply that the concept of a cheap, durable, select fire assault rifle would never have been put into practice without the STG44 as a template seems wrong.

its more of a without the STG44 would any of the people who made decisions about military weapons and tactics ever have actually given these weapons a chance?


Yes. A big thing about the war was the realization the combat range had shrunk from earlier wars, down to 300-400 yards, and that the full powered, bolt action rifles were not as effective at that range. All the power they offered was literally wasted, outside the hands of skilled marksmen.

The same line of reasoning that lead to the STG 44 was in the minds of other nations as well. What was needed was something between the short range sub-machine gun and the longer range rifles. The SKS was one attempt to answer the problem pose by the range and power issues, as was the STG-44.
 
2012-12-12 05:57:02 PM

roc6783: I'll buy that.


Well, thinking of it a little more- the US was still refusing to embrace the "assault rifle" model when we entered vietnam. Even when they were force (by the reality of jungle warfare against insurgent style tactics) to adopt different weapons, they tried to make a full-auto M14 instead of adopting a smaller cartridge. The army had to be dragged into the M16 kicking and screaming.
 
2012-12-12 05:58:50 PM

wee: Your friend had better be careful with it. Did his dad every get any paperwork done on it (like bring-back forms, NFA registration, etc)? If not, he might be in possession of an illegal NFA weapon. That's 5 years in prison and a $250K fine if the ATF finds out about it. I'd contact a lawyer who specializes in the NFA if I were him. And I'd hide that thing until I did. The NFA is not a law you want to trifle with -- at all.


I don't think he actually ever did. I haven't talked to the guy in a long time, but I never got the impression that the gun ever had a paper trail associated with it. It was awesome though. A little rusty on the barrel, but that's why people tended not to really look at it. it looked like something they would have gotten at a thrift shop. Last year when I was in AZ for my yearly trip, we went out to the range and someone was actually shooting one that was in beautiful condition. I'f I'd have had an extra $20, I would have paid them just to let me shoot for a minute or two. I've never gotten to shoot full auto before.
 
2012-12-12 05:59:00 PM
The BAR never gets any love on these lists, which is weird because it's export version directly inspired FN to create a more compact clone, which in turn inspired the STG44.
 
2012-12-12 06:02:33 PM

tlchwi02: roc6783: I'll buy that.

Well, thinking of it a little more- the US was still refusing to embrace the "assault rifle" model when we entered vietnam. Even when they were force (by the reality of jungle warfare against insurgent style tactics) to adopt different weapons, they tried to make a full-auto M14 instead of adopting a smaller cartridge. The army had to be dragged into the M16 kicking and screaming.


We had tried to basically make a better M1, at least in terms of capacity, with the M14. The less powerful .308 was a start, as was the 20 round mags and the less overall weight. It's actually a damn fine rifle, and i'd love to have one.

But it was hard to control in full auto, more expensive, and held less rounds then the AK it was up against. The wet environment was also hell on wooden stocks and lead to warping, iirc.
 
2012-12-12 06:31:14 PM

Strategeryz0r: roc6783: Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: ***snip***

Right, but the real question is would the AK even exist without the STG44? Kind of a what's more important? The chicken or the egg?

I am way out of my league here as far as gun design/history, but, this being Fark, was the design/concept of the STG44 so unique that it is unlikely as similar weapon wouldn't ever have been developed?

Now, you could easily counter that the AK would not have appeared as early or easily as it did, but to imply that the concept of a cheap, durable, select fire assault rifle would never have been put into practice without the STG44 as a template seems wrong.

The AK47 was basically the Soviets response to the STG44. Even though the STG44 saw relatively limited deployment by German forces, as it was crafted late in the war when Germany's manufacturing was already massively crippled, every participant in the war saw what they were trying to do with it. It was obvious from the get go that a weapon in between a standard high caliber battle rifle, and a low caliber SMG, had the capacity to change warfare as we know it.

So the Soviet's went into full on R&D mode to create their own variant of what was to be called "the assault rifle." It just so happens that they did what the germans couldn't, and created a cheap, easily mass produced, highly effective, incredibly reliable weapon.

Like I said it goes both ways, you have arguments on both sides as to which is more important. But it is very easy to argue that the AK may not have existed without the STG coming first. Or it may have come later. Who knows!

/by no means a gun expert, this is my interpretation of the history behind these weapons. If I am wrong, feel free to correct me and call me dumbass.


This is like the arguments about who really 'discovered' the New World.

Yes, the Vikings, the Irish, the Chinese and maybe even the Phoenicians and Egyptians may have gotten there
at various times in history, but none of them had a lasting presence or effect. Columbus was the one who was able
to start a mass migration from Europe (and, eventually the rest of the Old World) by his work (and yes, I'm glossing
over the human cost on the native peoples), so even if he was 'ripping off' those who came before, he did it better
and thus does deserve the acclaim.

/I doubt that Columbus was aware of any who came before, though: he was just bad at geography and math.
 
2012-12-12 06:34:55 PM
The only gun I KNEW of that would be on the was the 1911.
 
wee [TotalFark]
2012-12-12 06:42:08 PM

Mikey1969: I'f I'd have had an extra $20, I would have paid them just to let me shoot for a minute or two.


Well, .30-06 is running about fifty cents a round now. And the 1917 shoots at about 600 rounds per minute. So you'd get four seconds of shooting for that twenty bucks. :-)
 
2012-12-12 06:51:29 PM
List fails HARD without the Mauser 98. Even the US ripped off its design for the 1903 Springfield, so much so that we lost a lawsuit over it. It's the basis for most modern bolt-actions, especially the much-vaunted Winchester Model 70.
 
2012-12-12 07:01:03 PM
Didn't see the c96 or Luger. Didn't see any lever actions, or bolts from the Great Wars for that matter. The lack of mp-44 is also glaring. As is skipping all the WWII sub guns and going strait for the Uzi.
The xm-25 is revolutionary, but its on the fringe of what a gun can be defined as. More of a grenade launcher.
One piston,one gas, no roller delay?

In summation: THIS LIST IS DILDOES!

/Dildoes I say!
 
2012-12-12 07:02:00 PM

wee: Mikey1969: I'f I'd have had an extra $20, I would have paid them just to let me shoot for a minute or two.

Well, .30-06 is running about fifty cents a round now. And the 1917 shoots at about 600 rounds per minute. So you'd get four seconds of shooting for that twenty bucks. :-)


Yeah, it's definitely an expensive proposition. My brother in law knows somebody who hosts yearly machine gun parties in the desert where he provides the ammo. I got invited 7 years or so ago, but it ended up raining every weekend for about 6 weeks, so the guy finally just canceled it. I'm still in therapy over that.
 
2012-12-12 07:05:26 PM
dittybopper

Gaston Glock was the Steve Jobs of the gun world.

^ This. He got the cop market by dumping them at rock bottom prices knowing uneducated gun nuts would buy his product "because cops own it". A lot of wannabe gun-nuts are fools that think cops actually have a clue about firearms.
 
2012-12-12 07:06:46 PM

milo_rules: My list of important guns, and why:

1. The hand cannon. The beginning of modern firearms.
2. The matchlock musket (arquebus) had the first practical trigger system and made the musket a formidable weapon.
3. The flintlock musket, of which the British Land Pattern Musket was the most produced, most widely-used, and most important.
4. The Chassepot and the von Dreyse needle guns - two early breech-loading designs adopted into military use. Later rifle designs owe much to the Chassepot, especially.
5. The Springfield model 1861 muzzle-loading Rifle Musket, firing Minie ball ammunition. Percussion cap replaces flintlock. Used extensively throughout the American Civil War.
6. The Colt 1851 Navy Revolver - a revolution in firepower. Widespread military use on several continents.
7. The Gatling Gun - human-powered rapid-fire weapon
8. The Maxim Gun - self-powered rapid-fire weapon
9. Colt M1911 and the Luger 1908 - both were technological breakthrus; both were designed to use new types of ammo; .45 ACP and 9x19 Parabellum, respectively.
10. The M1 Garand - first semi-automatic rifle issued to military forces
11. Stg44 - first modern assault rifle
13. The FN P90 - modern submachine gun with many newer technologies - ultracompact bullpup design, top-feeding magazine with rounds stored perpendicular to the barrel/bolt

Narrowing the list to 10 might be tough.


A very solid list but i would swap out the Garand and put in its place the double barreled shotgun. The M1 like the M14 was a stop gap between the bolt action battle rifles and a true assault rifle much like the Snider-Enfield was a stop gap between a muzzle loader and a true cartrage weapon. The shotgun is the most important civilian gun ever as its not as sexy as military weapons but a true workhorse.

Also the Springfield could be replaced by the 1853 Enfield but i suspect both choices depend on nationality more than weapon strengths.
 
2012-12-12 07:16:33 PM

Norfolking Chance: milo_rules: My list of important guns, and why:

1. The hand cannon. The beginning of modern firearms.
2. The matchlock musket (arquebus) had the first practical trigger system and made the musket a formidable weapon.
3. The flintlock musket, of which the British Land Pattern Musket was the most produced, most widely-used, and most important.
4. The Chassepot and the von Dreyse needle guns - two early breech-loading designs adopted into military use. Later rifle designs owe much to the Chassepot, especially.
5. The Springfield model 1861 muzzle-loading Rifle Musket, firing Minie ball ammunition. Percussion cap replaces flintlock. Used extensively throughout the American Civil War.
6. The Colt 1851 Navy Revolver - a revolution in firepower. Widespread military use on several continents.
7. The Gatling Gun - human-powered rapid-fire weapon
8. The Maxim Gun - self-powered rapid-fire weapon
9. Colt M1911 and the Luger 1908 - both were technological breakthrus; both were designed to use new types of ammo; .45 ACP and 9x19 Parabellum, respectively.
10. The M1 Garand - first semi-automatic rifle issued to military forces
11. Stg44 - first modern assault rifle
13. The FN P90 - modern submachine gun with many newer technologies - ultracompact bullpup design, top-feeding magazine with rounds stored perpendicular to the barrel/bolt

Narrowing the list to 10 might be tough.

A very solid list but i would swap out the Garand and put in its place the double barreled shotgun. The M1 like the M14 was a stop gap between the bolt action battle rifles and a true assault rifle much like the Snider-Enfield was a stop gap between a muzzle loader and a true cartrage weapon. The shotgun is the most important civilian gun ever as its not as sexy as military weapons but a true workhorse.

Also the Springfield could be replaced by the 1853 Enfield but i suspect both choices depend on nationality more than weapon strengths.


No dice. The m1 was the first widely fielded self loading rifle and pivotal to the Americans success in the war.
The Germans came up with an intermediate cartridge, but the Americans fronted a truly mass produced weapon for mobile warfare.

Also, you don't talk about bolt guns without talking about mausers.
That's just impolite.
 
2012-12-12 07:21:30 PM
I would remove the Garand and replace it with the MG34/42.

The Garand/ was obsolete when the assault rifle was created. The GPMG concept is still around.
 
2012-12-12 08:00:48 PM

Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: Strategeryz0r: The XM-25 is not a gun, it's a bloody grenade launcher. And really it's just natural evolution of the weapons platform. WTF is it doing there?

No, it's a gun because it fires an integrated round, like any common pistol or rifle. The bullet just happens to have a computerized fuse and an explosive charge. It belongs on this list because it is a game changer, same as the other entries.

It wont be a game changer until it becomes financially feasible to deploy on a large scale. It's a cool toy right now, but at 30k it's just not a good investment regardless of it's capabilities. That's WAY too expensive for an infantry weapon.


3D printing will make them free.
 
2012-12-12 08:28:30 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: Strategeryz0r: Stone Meadow: Strategeryz0r: The XM-25 is not a gun, it's a bloody grenade launcher. And really it's just natural evolution of the weapons platform. WTF is it doing there?

No, it's a gun because it fires an integrated round, like any common pistol or rifle. The bullet just happens to have a computerized fuse and an explosive charge. It belongs on this list because it is a game changer, same as the other entries.

It wont be a game changer until it becomes financially feasible to deploy on a large scale. It's a cool toy right now, but at 30k it's just not a good investment regardless of it's capabilities. That's WAY too expensive for an infantry weapon.

3D printing will make them free.


Cool. Can we put LEDs on them after printing?
 
2012-12-12 08:46:23 PM
Came for this, leaving disappointed (unless someone else already posted a pic)

cdn5.thefirearmsblog.com
 
2012-12-12 08:48:16 PM

Quantum Apostrophe: 3D printing will make them free.


Not working very well right now

/3d printing in space however is the game changer...no gravity
 
2012-12-12 09:07:50 PM

iq_in_binary: MikeSass: R.A.Danny: Marcus Aurelius: Complete list fail for missing the Sturmgewehr 44.

Having the Ak there instead of the weapon that inspired it was indeed silly.

Agreed. Also, if you are goign to put one 9mm semi-auto handgun on the list I would think that the P08 (aka Luger) would have been a better choice than a Glock 17. The only thing innovative about the GLock 17 is that they finally got the polymer right and could make plastic guns. Big deal. There still has never been a finer 9mm handgun made than the P08's.

Ummm, the Browning High Power? Idiot


No. The High Power was unsafe, and would fire with the safety on if dropped.

I have a picture somewhere of the window I took out.
 
2012-12-12 09:22:33 PM
List fails without a Red Ryder BB gun with a compass in the stock, and this thing which tells time.
 
2012-12-12 09:28:52 PM
For you Browning fans, here's a good read--John Browning--American Gunmaker by John Browning (son of Browning) and Curt Gentry. May be out of print but I'm guessing you can find it on Amazon or eBay.
 
2012-12-12 09:37:47 PM

Amberwind: jedihirsch: the Coffee Mill gun of the civil war predated the gatling by about half a year. And the BAR and Lewis Gun were the first two light portable machine guns and they were valuable. As other earlier noted, what about the MP43/StG44. What about the Sharpes repeating carbine and the later guns modeled after it (revolutionized rifle's worldwide and cavalry tactics. It won the US Gettysburg and Cold Harbor). Also what about the Mauser 98 used from 1898-1945 (models 98A's in the beginning till the 98K's of WW2). The AR-15/AR-10's (original variant, not the later modified ones used in Nam) were revolutionary as well as the modern day IWI TAR-21 assault rifle, considered the best modern assault rifle on the market and the best bulpub by a large margin. Also the belgian P90 PDW is also revolutionary with its top loading bulpub design. And don't forget the Calico Helicon Magazine guns that they are suing the chinese for patent violations. This article is very suspect

My husband would love talking to you. I still stand by my statement that the M1819 Hall rifle needs to be on the list, but many of the ones you listed do as well. I could also make a good case for the 1891 Mosin-Nagant, since slight variations of the Mosin design have been in continuous combat use since the rifle was first introduced (currently being used as one of the primary weapons of the insurgents in Afghanistan and Iraq).


You can make an Argument for the Land Pattern musket. Was used for over 100 years with the Brits, and was what was used to build their empire.
The Hotchkiss AA-12 the worlds only truly fully auto shotgun, 350rpm with a 40 round drum.
the Daewoo K-11 dual caliber rilfe.
There also can be an argument made for the Springfield Model 1860. Primary gun used by both side during the civil war.
and lastly there is the Browning Hunting Rifle. He designed it over 100 years ago yet many of his break-through patents for his hunting rifle were used in almost every hunting and military rifle since his patten expired and in many of those before then to those who paid him for the rights. Its the basis for most military and civilian rifles today
 
2012-12-12 09:45:50 PM

jedihirsch: The Hotchkiss AA-12 the worlds only truly fully auto shotgun, 350rpm with a 40 round drum.
the Daewoo K-11 dual caliber rilfe.



I don't think a case can be made for either of these.

They may be unique in their capabilities, but generally they've meant fark-all to the overall world of firearms and have made no real impact on history. This isn't to say everything in TFA was that impactful, but just because something is cool doesn't mean it's one of the most important guns in history.

I'd still think that little .32 ACP FN 1910 probably deserves the MOST influential firearm of the modern world, if for no other reason than what it kicked off. Think about it- it killed Archduke Ferdinand, being the immediate spark that kicked off WWI. The ending of WWI pretty well set things up for Round Two twenty years later as well as resulting in the rise of communism in the USSR and kicking off that episode in human history. Thus, both WWII and all the brush fires from the Cold War can also be laid at the feet of WWI, and thereby that little pistol. Pretty much all world history for the last century has a little mouse gun round to thank for how things came about.

Now, WWI might have happened anyway even without that, but as it happened, that one little pistol in that dipshiat anarchist's hands, pointed at that loser of a noble, ended up shaping the world as we now know it, complete with a death toll of millions upon millions of lives in war, purges, and other assorted skirmishes. Now THAT is stopping power.
 
2012-12-12 09:50:37 PM

neuroflare: The only gun I KNEW of that would be on the was the 1911.


Same here. Also, someone mentioned the S & W Model 29. For impact on pop culture it deserves consideration, not to mention being a fine piece.
 
2012-12-12 10:21:18 PM
Something like half the list owes their roots to John Moses Browning. Even if he didn't directly design them, every single self-powered semi and full-auto action is based on his designs.

*EVERY*FARKING*ONE*

He invented short and long recoil, gas, and blow-back operation. The AK? A gas operated, removeable magazine version of the Browning designed Remington Model 8.
 
2012-12-12 10:26:55 PM
I think the AK 47 needed to be on the list, and I'd add the M16. The two most important rifles of the last 60 years
 
2012-12-12 11:58:22 PM

Jammybee: I would remove the Garand and replace it with the MG34/42.

The Garand/ was obsolete when the assault rifle was created. The GPMG concept is still around.


And so are gas powered rifles. It also proved the value of a semi-auto battle rifle, which would replace the bolt action rifle in all militaries after that.
 
2012-12-13 04:30:54 AM

jedihirsch: Amberwind: jedihirsch: the Coffee Mill gun of the civil war predated the gatling by about half a year. And the BAR and Lewis Gun were the first two light portable machine guns and they were valuable. As other earlier noted, what about the MP43/StG44. What about the Sharpes repeating carbine and the later guns modeled after it (revolutionized rifle's worldwide and cavalry tactics. It won the US Gettysburg and Cold Harbor). Also what about the Mauser 98 used from 1898-1945 (models 98A's in the beginning till the 98K's of WW2). The AR-15/AR-10's (original variant, not the later modified ones used in Nam) were revolutionary as well as the modern day IWI TAR-21 assault rifle, considered the best modern assault rifle on the market and the best bulpub by a large margin. Also the belgian P90 PDW is also revolutionary with its top loading bulpub design. And don't forget the Calico Helicon Magazine guns that they are suing the chinese for patent violations. This article is very suspect

My husband would love talking to you. I still stand by my statement that the M1819 Hall rifle needs to be on the list, but many of the ones you listed do as well. I could also make a good case for the 1891 Mosin-Nagant, since slight variations of the Mosin design have been in continuous combat use since the rifle was first introduced (currently being used as one of the primary weapons of the insurgents in Afghanistan and Iraq).

You can make an Argument for the Land Pattern musket. Was used for over 100 years with the Brits, and was what was used to build their empire.
The Hotchkiss AA-12 the worlds only truly fully auto shotgun, 350rpm with a 40 round drum.


The AA-12 is *now* the worlds only truly fully auto shotgun. There was the Pancor Jackhammer and the H&K CAWS around the same time as the AA-12, too.
 
2012-12-13 05:31:42 AM

way south: Norfolking Chance: milo_rules: My list of important guns, and why:

1. The hand cannon. The beginning of modern firearms.
2. The matchlock musket (arquebus) had the first practical trigger system and made the musket a formidable weapon.
3. The flintlock musket, of which the British Land Pattern Musket was the most produced, most widely-used, and most important.
4. The Chassepot and the von Dreyse needle guns - two early breech-loading designs adopted into military use. Later rifle designs owe much to the Chassepot, especially.
5. The Springfield model 1861 muzzle-loading Rifle Musket, firing Minie ball ammunition. Percussion cap replaces flintlock. Used extensively throughout the American Civil War.
6. The Colt 1851 Navy Revolver - a revolution in firepower. Widespread military use on several continents.
7. The Gatling Gun - human-powered rapid-fire weapon
8. The Maxim Gun - self-powered rapid-fire weapon
9. Colt M1911 and the Luger 1908 - both were technological breakthrus; both were designed to use new types of ammo; .45 ACP and 9x19 Parabellum, respectively.
10. The M1 Garand - first semi-automatic rifle issued to military forces
11. Stg44 - first modern assault rifle
13. The FN P90 - modern submachine gun with many newer technologies - ultracompact bullpup design, top-feeding magazine with rounds stored perpendicular to the barrel/bolt

Narrowing the list to 10 might be tough.

A very solid list but i would swap out the Garand and put in its place the double barreled shotgun. The M1 like the M14 was a stop gap between the bolt action battle rifles and a true assault rifle much like the Snider-Enfield was a stop gap between a muzzle loader and a true cartrage weapon. The shotgun is the most important civilian gun ever as its not as sexy as military weapons but a true workhorse.

Also the Springfield could be replaced by the 1853 Enfield but i suspect both choices depend on nationality more than weapon strengths.

No dice. The m1 was the first widely fielded self ...


The Enfield 1853 (not the Lee Enfield bolt action) was a percussion cap muzzle loader that was used a lot by the confeds during the American civil war as well as the standard issue weapon for the British Empire so it's more important world wide than the Springfield.

The M1 was the first self loading military rifle but is from the same era as the Stg44 so is much like the wheel lock weapons compared to the flintlock. It's just not as big a step forward that is needed for a top ten list. A top twenty or thirty maybe but as important as the first machine gun or assault rifle? No I'm afraid not.
 
2012-12-13 05:35:13 PM

mr lawson: Quantum Apostrophe: 3D printing will make them free.

Not working very well right now

/3d printing in space however is the game changer...no gravity


Plenty of gravity in space, friend.
 
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