As long as it looks like he is doing something, that's what matters.

In other words, he said, they'd be required to use hardy "Class 1" poles, instead of the ones in place - many of them the weaker "Class 5." The system used to rate poles determines their strength and sturdiness by their wood and diameter. A lower number is better, and a typical New Jersey pole is right around the middle rating, McKeon said.


Aren't some utility poles designed NOT to be indestructible so they flex or break when struck by an automobile (so the driver has a better chance of survival)? I seem to recall reading that somewhere but could easily be wrong.


McKeon acknowledged he's not sure how much of a difference the higher-quality poles would make in a major event like Sandy or Irene, "but especially now, when there's a lot of pole repair, it seems we should require the highest-grade wood."


*juvenile snicker*

colinspooky: or join the civilised world and bury the wires

Lets get right on that

"The North Carolina Utilities Commission said that burying wires statewide would cost $41 billion, take 25 years, and would more than double monthly electric bills. The news gets more discouraging. Some experts say that underground cables are more reliable than those above ground but only by about 50%, and that advantage is somewhat counteracted when you consider that it takes much longer to find, dig up, and repair a faulty wire. Why do underground cables fail at all? Floods and earthquakes can short lines. There's more: The roots of a tree toppled in a storm could destroy a buried wire."

TheGreatGazoo: colinspooky: or join the civilised world and bury the wires

Lets get right on that

"The North Carolina Utilities Commission said that burying wires statewide would cost $41 billion, take 25 years, and would more than double monthly electric bills. The news gets more discouraging. Some experts say that underground cables are more reliable than those above ground but only by about 50%, and that advantage is somewhat counteracted when you consider that it takes much longer to find, dig up, and repair a faulty wire. Why do underground cables fail at all? Floods and earthquakes can short lines. There's more: The roots of a tree toppled in a storm could destroy a buried wire."

and yet, when everyone else around us loses power during a storm, we don't, because our wires are buried. Amazing.

colinspooky: or join the civilised world and bury the wires

Can I get a "this"?

Why aren't they using gaint rubber poles. They would just bend in the wind, and then boing they spring back....

colinspooky: or join the civilised world and bury the wires

Depends on what you consider 'civilized' I guess. Japan experiences more various natural disasters than just about anywhere. And, once you get out of the very-innermost-core of Tokyo, the sky is pretty much a complete and utter rats-nest of wires. Of course, when mudslide/quake/etc/etc happens, they have hundreds of guys in color-coded suits on it pretty much instantly.

colinspooky: or join the civilised world and bury the wires

Why do yo hate the working class? Just how many good paying Union jobs are tied to needing to maintain the current system.

If you bury them it means less maintenance and fewer jobs. Of course they could always find working at Solyndra or building Chevy Volts.

Of course things like population density, miles of line to be buried (more than any other country) also come into play

Best way to do it would be to mandate all new lines to be buried and existing lines buried as they need repair and have consumers eat the cost over time.

Never let a good crisis or the resulting funding you get from it go to waste

Katie98_KT:

and yet, when everyone else around us loses power during a storm, we don't, because our wires are buried. Amazing.

Hey everyone, Katie98_KT has figured out how to fix all our problems because they don't happen to her!

There are good arguments for and against burying wires, but "I didn't lose power during that storm" isn't one of them.

This assemblyman is a moron; utility poles don't fail because the wood lacks sufficient strength. He would have a much higher success rate proposing setting all poles in concrete (someone already mentioned the issue of cars hitting stronger poles, and yes that would result in more fatalities). If a tree falls against adjacent wires, it is going to bring those wires down one way or another... some would argue it is better for the pole to be displaced than for the lines to snap.

I work for an electric utility, and I can tell you that putting lines underground, causes just as many problems as it solves. People hitting lines while digging, ground mounted transformers shorting out from flood waters, etc. Overhead is better IMHO, if you have exceptional vegetation control, which is possible.

colinspooky: or join the civilised world and bury the wires

I think you'll find, if you research this, that buried cable is economical in small, densely populated countries like Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc. Most of the World has overhead, like US, Canada, Australia, Russia, China, South America, and yes even France outside of large cities. Admittedly France's little overhead cables are much cuter than ours. But it's sillly to spend 50-100 Billion per State when we have a legacy system that works quite well despite exposure to natcat disruptions. Most countries manage these disruptions relatively well.

Look at me everybody! I'm a lawmaker, and I'm making laws. Look at me!!!

Underground utility lines certainly look nicer, but they require far more expertise to repair. Outages may be less frequent, but when they do occur, they are be longer. (Several years ago, large parts of Queens had no power for a few weeks in the middle of the summer while underground wiring was being repaired.)

Fissile: New Jersey is one of the most densely populated places in the world.......population density of nearly 1200 people per square mile.....making it more densely populated than almost every European country, and more densely populated than Japan. To understand just how densely populated New Jersey really is, compare it to Ohio. Ohio currently has a total population of about 11 million people. If Ohio had the same population DENSITY as NJ, the total population of Ohio would be 50 million people. The top 4 most densely populated towns in the US are in New Jersey. NYC comes in at number 5. It's obscene that New Jersey still has overhead power lines. The only reason those power lines are still overhead is because we don't have the political will to join the modern world.

As Pick pointed out, underground lines are susceptible to flood damage from shorting, damage to transformers (that is actually what happened in NYC), or just physical damage caused by other underground masses moving around when the soil becomes saturated. Underground lines also can rise to the surface in heavy floods.

Add to all that, NJ has a mean elevation of 246 ft above sea level, the largest land area, the Atlantic Coastal Plain, covers the southern 3/5 of New Jersey. More than half of this area, characterized by gently rolling hills, is less than 100 feet above sea level. If you pull up the FEMA flood zone maps, you will see large swaths are marked as high probability of flooding... So, sure, you're right, NJ has a dense population, but that is NOT THE ONLY THING TO CONSIDER.

Fissile: Ebbelwoi: colinspooky: or join the civilised world and bury the wires

I think you'll find, if you research this, that buried cable is economical in small, densely populated countries like Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc. Most of the World has overhead, like US, Canada, Australia, Russia, China, South America, and yes even France outside of large cities. Admittedly France's little overhead cables are much cuter than ours. But it's sillly to spend 50-100 Billion per State when we have a legacy system that works quite well despite exposure to natcat disruptions. Most countries manage these disruptions relatively well.

=================

New Jersey is one of the most densely populated places in the world.......population density of nearly 1200 people per square mile.....making it more densely populated than almost every European country, and more densely populated than Japan. To understand just how densely populated New Jersey really is, compare it to Ohio. Ohio currently has a total population of about 11 million people. If Ohio had the same population DENSITY as NJ, the total population of Ohio would be 50 million people. The top 4 most densely populated towns in the US are in New Jersey. NYC comes in at number 5. It's obscene that New Jersey still has overhead power lines. The only reason those power lines are still overhead is because we don't have the political will to join the modern world.

Check and mate.

I think the trouble we'll find converting is the fact that people want their utilities secure and reliable now, not 10 years from now when the underground routes have been mapped and rights of way secured. Those things are very difficult to do after an area has been developed. It's the kind of infrastructure that usually only gets put in place before an area is developed or when an area is being nuked from orbit and rebuilt.

Fissile:
New Jersey is one of the most densely populated places in the world.......population density of nearly 1200 people per square mile.....making it more densely populated than almost every European country, and more densely populated than Japan. To understand just how densely populated New Jersey really is, compare it to Ohio. Ohio currently has a total population of about 11 million people. If Ohio had the same population DENSITY as NJ, the total population of Ohio would be 50 million people. The top 4 most densely populated towns in the US are in New Jersey. NYC comes in at number 5. It's obscene that New Jersey still has overhead power lines. The only reason those power lines are still overhead is because we don't have the political will to join the modern world.

And it has a coastline which is another argument for burying. Replacing legacy overhead with buried is stupid expensive though, so that's why you only see it in the newest McMansion neighborhoods.

Fissile: It's obscene that New Jersey still has overhead power lines. The only reason those power lines are still overhead is because we don't have the political will to join the modern world.

The densest county in NJ (Hudson at 5200 people per km^2) is about half the density of the urbanized Seoul or Tokyo metro areas. And, again, both of those are absolutely criss-crossed thick with overhead wiring. It's honestly cheaper and more efficient (if it were cheaper/more efficient to bury them, the Japanese or Koreans would have). The only advantage is aesthetic, and they're considered a sign of modernity in Japan/Korea.

My experiences from hurricane country (Florida):

Underground will stop trees from taking out power lines. BUT it won't stop tree roots from up-rooted trees from ripping up power lines. As Pick mentioned, underground is very fragile in terms of flooding and it takes far more time to dig up and repair a damaged underground system than an exposed overhead system.

As far as reinforced utility poles, there is some merit to reinforcing the main feeders (high-tension lines), but I don't believe Sandy had winds strong enough anywhere to cause a problem. In Hurricane Charley, 135-145mph winds hit Punta Gorda. Other than a few of the tall interstate interchange light poles, I can't say I saw a failure that was 100% wind-caused and not due to trees/flying debris.

What DOES work is aggressive tree-trimming, which most of the Florida utilities started doing after getting hit in 2004/2005. What also works is a more-distributed grid, but the NIMBYs don't want power plants anywhere near them. The closer you are to a power plant, the shorter the line runs, the more reliable the system. It's why my data center is located down the street from the power plant and feet from the telco. Haven't had a total power outage in ~15 years, even through multiple Cat3 hurricanes.

One other thought... How long was power REALLY out in the storm-affected areas? I'm talking about areas where buildings were still inhabitable after the storm. After the hurricanes in FL, the barrier islands (all overhead power) were back on within 3-5 days of losing power.

Being without power for 3-5 days isn't the biggest deal in the world people. Don't give me that crap about it being cold, etc. You have blizzards in the wintertime and I'm certain the ice storms take out power during those too.

jtown: Fissile: Ebbelwoi: colinspooky: or join the civilised world and bury the wires

I think you'll find, if you research this, that buried cable is economical in small, densely populated countries like Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc. Most of the World has overhead, like US, Canada, Australia, Russia, China, South America, and yes even France outside of large cities. Admittedly France's little overhead cables are much cuter than ours. But it's sillly to spend 50-100 Billion per State when we have a legacy system that works quite well despite exposure to natcat disruptions. Most countries manage these disruptions relatively well.

=================

New Jersey is one of the most densely populated places in the world.......population density of nearly 1200 people per square mile.....making it more densely populated than almost every European country, and more densely populated than Japan. To understand just how densely populated New Jersey really is, compare it to Ohio. Ohio currently has a total population of about 11 million people. If Ohio had the same population DENSITY as NJ, the total population of Ohio would be 50 million people. The top 4 most densely populated towns in the US are in New Jersey. NYC comes in at number 5. It's obscene that New Jersey still has overhead power lines. The only reason those power lines are still overhead is because we don't have the political will to join the modern world.

Check and mate.

I think the trouble we'll find converting is the fact that people want their utilities secure and reliable now, not 10 years from now when the underground routes have been mapped and rights of way secured.

For the most part, people in New Jersey already do have secure and reliable power right now. The real problem is that nobody, but nobody, would be willing to actually pay to have the infrastructure moved underground.

Installing underground distribution from scratch as part of normal ongoing operations costs about $500K - $3M per linear mile (as opposed to about 120K per mile for overhead), depending on a whole lot of different factors. New Jersey's largest utility, PSE&G, has more than 23,000 circuit miles of power distribution lines. Add in the additional costs of removing existing overhead service, as well as hiring additional manpower for a years long statewide project, and you're looking at a cost of somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 billion dollars, or about 5 times their current annual revenue.

For comparison, that utility's costs for recovery from Sandy are estimated to be about $300 million

So yeah, that's one upgrade that's not going to happen anytime soon

Sean M: One other thought... How long was power REALLY out in the storm-affected areas? I'm talking about areas where buildings were still inhabitable after the storm. After the hurricanes in FL, the barrier islands (all overhead power) were back on within 3-5 days of losing power.

There wer hundreds of thousands of people without power for more than ten days. Some as long as two weeks.

Sean M: Being without power for 3-5 days isn't the biggest deal in the world people.

It is when it's snowing outside and your furnace isn't working, or when you're 85 years old and not in the best of health, or if you use an oxygen concentrator and only have enough backup bottles to last for a week, or if you don't have a car and all the food in your refrigerator goes bad (or you run out of baby formula) after the first week and all of the stores within 3 miles of your house are also still without power and thus not open.

Or when the backup generator at the hospital gets flooded so that the people in the hospital who are on life support now require a trained professional to be doing it instead of a machine. Or when the pumps at the water company are also without power, so in addition to having no lights, no refrigeration, and no heat, you also have no water for a day or two, and once it does come back you have to boil it for the next 48 hours for safety. Electric stove? Sorry charlie. Stores still closed? Just gonna have to hope you don't get sick.

Losing power for two weeks in your house is no big deal, Losing power in your entire town, and huge portions of the entire state for two weeks is a big big problem for all those individuals who lose power in their houses.

Pick: I work for an electric utility, and I can tell you that putting lines underground, causes just as many problems as it solves. People hitting lines while digging, ground mounted transformers shorting out from flood waters, etc. Overhead is better IMHO, if you have exceptional vegetation control, which is possible.

I HATE this mentality.

Underground utilities are a HUGE improvement unless you're in a floodplain or subject to regular, massive earthquakes.

And by "exceptional vegetation control" what you really mean is "cut all the nearby trees, thus making the ugly poles and wires more visible" which is absolutely unacceptable. We need pole control, not vegetation control.

benh999: Underground utility lines certainly look nicer, but they require far more expertise to repair. Outages may be less frequent, but when they do occur, they are be longer. (Several years ago, large parts of Queens had no power for a few weeks in the middle of the summer while underground wiring was being repaired.)

Sounds like an infrastructure problem to me. I was once told that the Netherlands...the mostly below sea level, Netherlands...the mostly below, salt water, sea level, Netherlands...buries all of their power lines and has almost zero overhead lines. How do they mange such a thing? Smaller country? Fewer people? Maybe they just give a crap about their qualty of life and the quality of life of all of the people who live there.

Ctrl-Alt-Del:
It is when it's snowing outside and your furnace isn't working, or when you're 85 years old and not in the best of health, or if you use an oxygen concentrator and only have enough backup bottles to last for a week, or if you don't have a car and all the food in your refrigerator goes bad (or you run out of baby formula) after the first week and all of the stores within 3 miles of your house are also still without power and thus not open.

And you mean to tell me the same thing doesn't happen with a blizzard? There was ample warning that this storm was coming. I know -- I was in the NYC area when Sandy hit. I knew there was a good chance I was going to get caught in the storm, and my carry-on had a smaller version of my hurricane kit in it. Batteries galore, flashlights, solar panel for charging phones, laptops, 2-way radios, emergency supplies, etc. Ultimately, *YOU* are responsible for the safety and well-being of yourself and your family. NOT the government, not some utility company, YOU alone. If you don't believe me, ask the people of the Jersey shore or the Rockaways who was there for them when the storm hit. No one.

This can't be the first time the area has had a power outage in the cooler months. 95F with an 80F dewpoint without air con or fan after a hurricane isn't pleasant either.

Or when the backup generator at the hospital gets flooded so that the people in the hospital who are on life support now require a trained professional to be doing it instead of a machine. Or when the pumps at the water company are also without power

Again, a failure to plan. Come on down to Florida and you'll see how it's done. I've been to many 3rd world countries with superior power grids to Florida. As a result, many people have backup generators. Hospitals putting critical switchgear in the basement? What did they think was going to happen? Water plants without backup generators? Completely unfathomable to me. We even have traffic lights with backup batteries & generators down here. And yes, gas stations & grocery stores down here have generators.

I live on a barrier island myself and have made sure I'm not going to get stuck in a shiatty situation because a Cat4 hurricane comes plowing through. Building has a main generator ~17 ft above sea level and an auxiliary generator at 40'. Switchgear is at 25'. Full services when the main generator's running, limited (including reduced-power AC) when only the auxiliary is running. ~14 days' worth of fuel on-hand. We also have a microwave link back to the mainland in case when Comcast and Centurylink screw the pooch and need to get in touch with the rest of civilization...or watch a little NetFlix or the Slingbox. You learn in each storm you go through. Found out the hard way after Hurricane Charley that getting a propane truck to refill the generator is nearly impossible after a storm, hence the current setup.

Losing power for two weeks in your house is no big deal, Losing power in your entire town, and huge portions of the entire state for two weeks is a big big problem for all those individuals who lose power in their houses.

Worse: communications. We've had cases where telephone/internet service was down for months after a storm. Really bad when it hits 911 centers and emergency shelters & hospitals. Embarq/Centurylink and Comcast show their ineptitude every storm here. I see Verizon's doing the same for Lower Manhattan.

Hey "lawmaker", how about doing some research before you mindlessly propose something?

And hey, Board of Public Utilities, try knowing the basics about your jobs. When someone asks how much a UTILITY pole costs, have an answer.

Katie98_KT: TheGreatGazoo: colinspooky: or join the civilised world and bury the wires

Lets get right on that

"The North Carolina Utilities Commission said that burying wires statewide would cost $41 billion, take 25 years, and would more than double monthly electric bills. The news gets more discouraging. Some experts say that underground cables are more reliable than those above ground but only by about 50%, and that advantage is somewhat counteracted when you consider that it takes much longer to find, dig up, and repair a faulty wire. Why do underground cables fail at all? Floods and earthquakes can short lines. There's more: The roots of a tree toppled in a storm could destroy a buried wire."

and yet, when everyone else around us loses power during a storm, we don't, because our wires are buried. Amazing.

Hey you shut up with your FACTS AND LOGIC!

dj1s: benh999: Underground utility lines certainly look nicer, but they require far more expertise to repair. Outages may be less frequent, but when they do occur, they are be longer. (Several years ago, large parts of Queens had no power for a few weeks in the middle of the summer while underground wiring was being repaired.)

Sounds like an infrastructure problem to me. I was once told that the Netherlands...the mostly below sea level, Netherlands...the mostly below, salt water, sea level, Netherlands...buries all of their power lines and has almost zero overhead lines. How do they mange such a thing? Smaller country? Fewer people? Maybe they just give a crap about their qualty of life and the quality of life of all of the people who live there.
It's not like buried cable in a small country is a major quality of life issue vs the big countries. If you look at the way a typical Dutch town is laid out (exactly like in Germany) the tiny streets, crammed together housing, and lack of front yards are perfectly made for underground. Town layouts in large countries are completely different. One might argue that actually having a yard like we do in North America is a significant quality of life asset.

Sean M: And you mean to tell me the same thing doesn't happen with a blizzard? There was ample warning that this storm was coming. I know -- I was in the NYC area when Sandy hit. I knew there was a good chance I was going to get caught in the storm, and my carry-on had a smaller version of my hurricane kit in it. Batteries galore, flashlights, solar panel for charging phones, laptops, 2-way radios, emergency supplies, etc.

Dude, this wasn't an issue of milk bread and batteries. Just because you're from an area that regularly experiences Category 2 and 3 hurricanes and an occasional Category 4, expecting people in New Jersey to have the same level of preparedness, and expecting the State government and the infrastructure to be as ready for it as they are in Florida is ridiculous.

Sure, there was plenty of warning, just like there is for every hurricane that crawls up the coast. But all the warning in the world doesn't change the fact that this was the worst storm in a century. From the perspective of the electric utilities, it was the worst storm in recorded history. More than a few beach towns had their entire beachfronts - boardwalks along with several blocks of houses inland - completely destroyed. Having more than a dozen substations knocked out due to wind, trees and flooding isn't "failure to plan" when nothing even remotely close to that has ever happened before. The storm knocked out power to more than 85% of the people and business in the entire state.

It's nice that you had a hurricane kit and all, I do to, but asking people in New Jersey to "be prepared" for a storm that is worse than any hurricane that has ever hit is kinda like telling folks in Miami that they should have "been prepared" after 14 inches of snow shuts down the entire region for a week or two. I mean, it's snowed there before, right? So a few days warning before the storm should be enough for them to get ready for it, amirite?

shiat, people with generators were without power because they couldn't get gasoline to run them - they were still rationing gas throughout most (if not all) of the state ten days after the storm stopped. I waited in line for more than three hours to get a tank of gas, and that was only after I manged to find the one single gas station within three miles of my house that was able to get any deliveries.

Sean M: I live on a barrier island myself and have made sure I'm not going to get stuck in a shiatty situation because a Cat4 hurricane comes plowing through.

And that's your problem right there. Tell me, if the folks in your area got nailed with a 9.5 earthquake, what would your response be to all the farkers from California telling you that the devastation and total shutdown of the area was mostly due to a "failure to plan"?



The pier that this roller coaster sat on survived every storm that has crawled up the coast since it was built more than fifty years ago, including direct hits from several Category1 hurricanes, as well as a brush with a Category 2. The fact that it is now in the ocean is not due to a "failure to plan" 

So yeah, to answer your question, the same thing most certainly does not happen with a blizzard. Any blizzard. Because this wasn't people without power for two weeks - this was people without power for two weeks when local grocery stores were all closed, local department stores were all closed, local gas stations were all closed, many local roads were closed, local emergency shelters were overfull. This wasn't the kind of thing that normal people are ever prepared for.

That's a picture of Main St. Not residential. There's a difference.