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(KPTV Portland) NewsFlash Live coverage of a mall shooting in the Portland suburb of Clackamas. Early reports of two people dead   (kptv.com) divider line 883
    More: NewsFlash, Clackamas, suspicious death, milwaukie, David Blaine, child rape, age of consents, political scandal, suburbs  
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9956 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Dec 2012 at 7:47 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»


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2012-12-11 09:52:36 PM  

clancifer: Is it too early to talk about responsible gun legislation?


Not at all. I certainly hope every effort is made to make it easier for the average citizen to arm himself in order to better defend his/her family should something like this occur. Excellent point.
 
2012-12-11 09:52:39 PM  

Hobodeluxe: Kit Fister: Here's a thought for you, YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE AWAY HUMAN MADNESS.

so let's give all the crazy people access to guns!!!!


*facepalm*
 
2012-12-11 09:53:03 PM  

Popcorn Johnny: Pharacyde: I went to my local mall just today. I have a CHP but this mall specifically states "No weapons or firearms allowed, concealed or otherwise."
Makes me think twice about shopping there.

Criminals and not jobs don't care about signs.

Because you'd totally engage a shooter and take him out, right?


Concealed Carriers fantasize about this scenario.
 
2012-12-11 09:53:50 PM  
 
2012-12-11 09:54:54 PM  

aninconvenienterection: Not at all. I certainly hope every effort is made to make it easier for the average citizen to arm himself in order to better defend his/her family should something like this occur. Excellent point.


LOL

As if having more people armed would've made the situation any better.
 
2012-12-11 09:55:12 PM  
Oregon, where even the mass murderers are slackers.

//more like a double-homicider
 
2012-12-11 09:55:22 PM  

TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: CraicBaby: Marine1: CraicBaby: Reports of a .233 round found on the ground. Y'all who know more about guns can probably figure otu better than me what kind of gun it might be.

Probably .223.

AR-15 derived weapon is my first guess. Not definite though.

Oops yeah, .223. Typo.

Well, there goes my handgun theory.


There are a couple of handguns that shoot .223 and 5.56. Most would look like a little AR to most people though. Keltec makes two, and there are AR Pistols and a couple Fudd type "pistol" frame rifles.

More than likely, some flatfoot knuckledrager Po-lice got out their service rifle and re-charged the bolt during the run in because he / she couldn't remember if there was a round in the chamber. (This would put an unspent police .223 round on the floor.)

If there were cops there, .223 on the floor means nothing.
 
2012-12-11 09:55:32 PM  

Somacandra: Tellingthem: There is something about a bolt action that just makes shooting more fun to me. Kind of like driving a car with a stickshift.

Yeah, that's exactly how I would describe it too, actually :-) I never had that same fun with a lever-action, for example. And to correct myself, I think it was lever-action rifles that were used in those Speed Racer sequences.


As an aside, I think Fleming used the reverse analogy in Casino Royale - describing shifting gears as feeling as mechanically satisfying as operating a bolt action rifle
 
2012-12-11 09:55:55 PM  
Kit Fister "I accept that humans can be evil, violent creatures. Instead of trying to change the Nature of the species, I settle for being able to stay out of their way mostly, and being able to defend myself if I have shiatty luck"

I wholeheartedly agree. In case my point got lost in my multiple posts to that Ass guy.... taking weapons away from the rest of us, leaves us defenseless against the nuts who will *always* find something to attack with.
 
2012-12-11 09:56:04 PM  

Harry_Seldon: Popcorn Johnny: Pharacyde: I went to my local mall just today. I have a CHP but this mall specifically states "No weapons or firearms allowed, concealed or otherwise."
Makes me think twice about shopping there.

Criminals and not jobs don't care about signs.

Because you'd totally engage a shooter and take him out, right?

Concealed Carriers fantasize about this scenario.


We do? And you know this for a fact? I once got close to A situation where I thought I might just have to use a gun, and didn't because sucking up to the guy and letting him be completely right in his tirade calmed him down enough he put the knife away and backed off, I was sick to my stomach for a week. I know guys that have killed, and it haunts you worse. Anyone who thinks that it's anything but the worst possible necessary evil is lying to themselves.
 
2012-12-11 09:56:33 PM  

Harry_Seldon: Popcorn Johnny: Pharacyde: I went to my local mall just today. I have a CHP but this mall specifically states "No weapons or firearms allowed, concealed or otherwise."
Makes me think twice about shopping there.

Criminals and not jobs don't care about signs.

Because you'd totally engage a shooter and take him out, right?

Concealed Carriers fantasize about this scenario.


I'm not sure it's an unreasonable scenario. After all, part of concealed-carry is proficiency qualification. And plenty of CCW holders have WAY more range time than cops do.

That being said, it's the mall's property. People who own property are entitled to regulate the behavior of those people they allow on their property.
 
2012-12-11 09:56:35 PM  

jafiwam: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: CraicBaby: Marine1: CraicBaby: Reports of a .233 round found on the ground. Y'all who know more about guns can probably figure otu better than me what kind of gun it might be.

Probably .223.

AR-15 derived weapon is my first guess. Not definite though.

Oops yeah, .223. Typo.

Well, there goes my handgun theory.

There are a couple of handguns that shoot .223 and 5.56. Most would look like a little AR to most people though. Keltec makes two, and there are AR Pistols and a couple Fudd type "pistol" frame rifles.

More than likely, some flatfoot knuckledrager Po-lice got out their service rifle and re-charged the bolt during the run in because he / she couldn't remember if there was a round in the chamber. (This would put an unspent police .223 round on the floor.)

If there were cops there, .223 on the floor means nothing.


No shots were fired by the police.
 
2012-12-11 09:57:00 PM  

mgshamster: My guess has more to do with the idea that Japan is not a gun culture like we are, regardless of the gun laws.


gun culture has nothing to do with crime.

Gun culture is a boogeyman.
 
2012-12-11 09:58:18 PM  
RealAmericanHero [TotalFark] Smartest Funniest
2012-12-11 08:07:27 PM

More likely than a good citizen with a gun taking out a random shooter or assassin before he can do heavy damage, I think we'll see a story in some area with a lot of conceal carry where 3 people try to play heroes, all end up shooting each other out of their confusion and inability to process the situation beyond thinking "this is it, this is my moment to prove why I've been doing this!" and then the actual gunman gets away.

Naturally the loss of life would be sad, but it'd be one of the more productive losses of life in terms of proving points.

Once again doing everything you can to avoid the facts.

Fact:
When armed citizens lawfully use their guns to defend themselves they fire fewer shots and more accurately than cops

NYPD: ALL 9 shooting bystander victims hit by police gunfire

Harvard Study: Gun Control Is Counterproductive

FBI Stats: Gun Sales Up, Violent Crime Down
 
2012-12-11 09:58:37 PM  

moops: Ah, Clackamas Town Center. The "Town Center" is a mall. There's an Olive Garden and everything.


No. Olive garden is across the street.
 
2012-12-11 10:01:42 PM  

OnlyM3: Fact:
When armed citizens lawfully use their guns to defend themselves they fire fewer shots and more accurately than cops


None of the articles you cited claimed that.
 
2012-12-11 10:02:46 PM  

Mrtraveler01: aninconvenienterection: Not at all. I certainly hope every effort is made to make it easier for the average citizen to arm himself in order to better defend his/her family should something like this occur. Excellent point.

LOL

As if having more people armed would've made the situation any better.


This makes a lot of assumptions. At best, it may have stopped the guy sooner. At worst, it would have been no different. Why? Well most shooters understand the rule of not shooting unless you're sure. No one carrying a gun for protection honestly believes in being John Wayne or Bruce Willis to face down the bad guy, unless they have the opportunity and the need.

Honestly, and this comes from being someone with a lot of training in all manner of defensive firearms use and also law enforcement training on the legalities of things, it's incredibly dumb to rush in and go full on assault, and your best bet is getting small and getting to cover first and foremost. Be defensive, and only engage if there's a need and an opportunity. You are not a hero and chances of a face off resulting in you winning are negligible.
 
2012-12-11 10:03:00 PM  

Mrbogey: mgshamster: My guess has more to do with the idea that Japan is not a gun culture like we are, regardless of the gun laws.

gun culture has nothing to do with crime.

Gun culture is a boogeyman.


Eh, I really don't have a say in the matter. I'm not well educated on these types of criminal statistics nor on the usage of guns in crimes by culture. My basic idea was that people in a gun culture would be more likely to commit crimes with guns, whereas those who are not in a gun culture would commit crimes with something else (maybe something more akin to the culture where they are). Of course, there's no validity behind my thought process, and I could easily see how it could be disproved, so really, it was probably more of a waste of a post than anything (kind of like this explanation).
 
2012-12-11 10:03:55 PM  

Kit Fister: Hobodeluxe: Kit Fister: Here's a thought for you, YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE AWAY HUMAN MADNESS.

so let's give all the crazy people access to guns!!!!

*facepalm*


I think this is what he may look like...

saptapper.com
 
2012-12-11 10:04:45 PM  

Kit Fister: This makes a lot of assumptions. At best, it may have stopped the guy sooner. At worst, it would have been no different. Why? Well most shooters understand the rule of not shooting unless you're sure. No one carrying a gun for protection honestly believes in being John Wayne or Bruce Willis to face down the bad guy, unless they have the opportunity and the need.


I'm more on the side I bolded. But it's a reasonable assessment nonetheless.
 
2012-12-11 10:05:47 PM  

vygramul: way south: BravadoGT: You and others use that phrase because it frightens the less-educated public ("ASSAULT weapon? that sounds so aggressive, like military weapons. People don't need weapons designed for 'assault' for defense?"

I think people get confused because they think the A in AR-15 stands for "Assault" when it actually means Armalite, for the company that created it.
If anything its more of a modern follow on to the M1 carbine with a higher velocity round.

/A round designed specifically for its accuracy, low recoil, and flat trajectory.
/Performance that came at a heavy cost to its lethality... ironically enough.

Not sure I buy the lethality drop. Just ask the Marines on Okinawa if a 6mm round has lethality issues.


Thing is we'd have to compare 40 to 70 grain 5.56mm with the old 190 grain 8mm bruisers from great war era battle rifles.
Assault rounds do serious damage, no question. But the rounds they eventually replaced could strait up murder a guy at over a thousand yards.

Its a night and day difference in the physics of it all.
 
2012-12-11 10:06:34 PM  

Mrtraveler01: OnlyM3: Fact:
When armed citizens lawfully use their guns to defend themselves they fire fewer shots and more accurately than cops

None of the articles you cited claimed that.


Just for the sake of argument, how would that information, if supported by the statistics, affect your opinion?
 
2012-12-11 10:07:09 PM  
someonelse


Lt. Cheese Weasel: clancifer: Is it too early to talk about responsible gun legislation?

Of course the relevant issue isn't whether violent criminals obey the law, but whether gun retailers do. But keep dancing with your straw man.

You mean like when the administration orders gun retailers to allow Felons to buy firearms?
 
2012-12-11 10:08:53 PM  

vygramul: Mrtraveler01: OnlyM3: Fact:
When armed citizens lawfully use their guns to defend themselves they fire fewer shots and more accurately than cops

None of the articles you cited claimed that.

Just for the sake of argument, how would that information, if supported by the statistics, affect your opinion?


I think it's a hard thing to gauge overall.

But if there's evidence that CCW holders are more accurate shots than police officers, then I can see some validity to his claim. But right now, it's just something he pulled out of his ass based on assumptions.
 
2012-12-11 10:10:32 PM  

Kit Fister: Hobodeluxe: Kit Fister: Here's a thought for you, YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE AWAY HUMAN MADNESS.

so let's give all the crazy people access to guns!!!!

*facepalm*


Hey you were the one who implied that since you can't totally solve a problem you might as well ignore it.
 
2012-12-11 10:11:47 PM  

CraicBaby: jafiwam: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: CraicBaby: Marine1: CraicBaby: Reports of a .233 round found on the ground. Y'all who know more about guns can probably figure otu better than me what kind of gun it might be.

Probably .223.

AR-15 derived weapon is my first guess. Not definite though.

Oops yeah, .223. Typo.

Well, there goes my handgun theory.

There are a couple of handguns that shoot .223 and 5.56. Most would look like a little AR to most people though. Keltec makes two, and there are AR Pistols and a couple Fudd type "pistol" frame rifles.

More than likely, some flatfoot knuckledrager Po-lice got out their service rifle and re-charged the bolt during the run in because he / she couldn't remember if there was a round in the chamber. (This would put an unspent police .223 round on the floor.)

If there were cops there, .223 on the floor means nothing.

No shots were fired by the police.


I am not saying they did. Read it again, more slowly... A r o u n d i n t h e c h a m b e r, and the police c h a r g i n g t h e r i f l e a S E C O N D T I M E would take the unspent, unfired round out of the chamber and onto the floor, as the next round from the magazine into the chamber.

You stupid motherfarkers shouldn't post in any gun-related thread. That error like not knowing what the steering wheel in your car is for.
 
2012-12-11 10:12:05 PM  

cgraves67: He snapped when someone wished him Merry Clackamas for the 10,000th time.


This OR "happy holiday"
 
2012-12-11 10:12:24 PM  
CraicBaby: More evidence that the dude was a terrible shot: An eyewitness on Twitter said that the shooter looked straight at him and aimed, but he missed.


--------------

Seems legit
 
2012-12-11 10:12:46 PM  

OnlyM3: MrKoon

Shoot apparently was wearing body armor...

Just like the Theater shooter in Colorado huh?
cops lied to you


When did the cops claim it was bulletproof after the first day? It seemed like people were confused about it at first, but I'm pretty sure they cleared it up and explained it was just a tactical vest, not bulletproof.
 
2012-12-11 10:13:41 PM  
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/chi-chicago-shootin g s-violence-dec-910-teen-boy-shot-critically-wounded-20121209,0,6956137 .story/a> 

2 killed in Chicago yesterd-.....oh right it's Fark.com where the narrative is it's white people with the gun violence problem, my mistake.

Fark.com, where we ignore black violence because we're latent racists that just assume it's part of their nature and that they don't have the intellectual capacity to make better decisions or be outraged at the decisions others make.
 
2012-12-11 10:13:52 PM  

Hobodeluxe: Kit Fister: Hobodeluxe: Kit Fister: Here's a thought for you, YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE AWAY HUMAN MADNESS.

so let's give all the crazy people access to guns!!!!

*facepalm*

Hey you were the one who implied that since you can't totally solve a problem you might as well ignore it.


You have confused "not attempting to solve a problem in exactly the way that you advocate" with "ignoring a problem". The two concepts are not actually equivalent.
 
2012-12-11 10:14:05 PM  
I'm going to be honest. I carry a concealed pen because I fantasise about a situation arising where I have to stab someone in the neck with it.
 
2012-12-11 10:14:58 PM  

vygramul: CraicBaby: vygramul: CraicBaby: Only 2 confirmed dead (not including shooter) so far. Dude wasn't a very good shot.

Most of these assholes aren't. Or they use sub-optimal weapons and accessories.

He supposedly fired at least 60 rounds, too. So yeah, probably a combination of inexperience, shiatty weaponry & shiatty accessories.

I once heard a German WWII vet say that he wasn't very jealous of the M-1 because it encouraged spray-and-pray. He said their bolt-actions incentivized aiming. He's probably over-stating it, but there's probably an element of truth in it. Same is true with these idiots who carry an assault rifle and 100-round mags thinking they can be Charlie Sheen in Hot Shots Part Deux. Instead, they're one of the bad guys in Hot Shots, emptying their belt-fed quad-.50s and only kill the comic relief.


Ever wonder why the military limits magazines to 30 rounds?

Go belt-fed, or go home.
 
2012-12-11 10:16:07 PM  

USP .45: 2 killed in Chicago yesterd-.....oh right it's Fark.com where the narrative is it's white people with the gun violence problem, my mistake. Chicago, it'd be news if there wasn't a shooting there that day.


FTFY

USP .45: Fark.com, where we ignore black violence because we're latent racists that just assume it's part of their nature and that they don't have the intellectual capacity to make better decisions or be outraged at the decisions others make. act persecuted even though we have absolutely no reason to


FTFY as well.

/You're welcome
 
2012-12-11 10:16:53 PM  

someonelse: Lt. Cheese Weasel: someonelse: Lt. Cheese Weasel: clancifer: Is it too early to talk about responsible gun legislation?

Of course the relevant issue isn't whether violent criminals obey the law, but whether gun retailers do. But keep dancing with your straw man.

Right, so punish the lawful, ignore the lawless and you have a very nice cardboard box to bloviate more nonesense in the town square.

Wow. You're building your own personal army of straw men, aren't you.


Nope, I have the law and Constitution on my side, you have your liberal pillow biting nonsense on yours. Carry on.
 
2012-12-11 10:17:01 PM  

Hobodeluxe: Kit Fister: Hobodeluxe: Kit Fister: Here's a thought for you, YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE AWAY HUMAN MADNESS.

so let's give all the crazy people access to guns!!!!

*facepalm*

Hey you were the one who implied that since you can't totally solve a problem you might as well ignore it.


Actually, I've never said not advocated that. However, the steps it would take to make a realistic dent in the problem (end the war on drugs, pass measures for comprehensive mental health care, screening, and legal protections/restrictions based on mental status, etc) are about as likely to occur in my lifetime as getting Jessica alba to blow me while I orally pleasure Cote de Pablo, I'll accept reality and fight against pipe dream positions by the intellectually dishonest.
 
2012-12-11 10:17:21 PM  

Mrtraveler01: OnlyM3: Fact:
When armed citizens lawfully use their guns to defend themselves they fire fewer shots and more accurately than cops

None of the articles you cited claimed that.


when there is a controversial shooting of a minority suspect by mostly white officers, when aren't the number of rounds fired at the suspect called into question by the media?

I await your results.
 
2012-12-11 10:17:40 PM  

jafiwam: CraicBaby: jafiwam: TheBeastOfYuccaFlats: CraicBaby: Marine1: CraicBaby: Reports of a .233 round found on the ground. Y'all who know more about guns can probably figure otu better than me what kind of gun it might be.

Probably .223.

AR-15 derived weapon is my first guess. Not definite though.

Oops yeah, .223. Typo.

Well, there goes my handgun theory.

There are a couple of handguns that shoot .223 and 5.56. Most would look like a little AR to most people though. Keltec makes two, and there are AR Pistols and a couple Fudd type "pistol" frame rifles.

More than likely, some flatfoot knuckledrager Po-lice got out their service rifle and re-charged the bolt during the run in because he / she couldn't remember if there was a round in the chamber. (This would put an unspent police .223 round on the floor.)

If there were cops there, .223 on the floor means nothing.

No shots were fired by the police.

I am not saying they did. Read it again, more slowly... A r o u n d i n t h e c h a m b e r, and the police c h a r g i n g t h e r i f l e a S E C O N D T I M E would take the unspent, unfired round out of the chamber and onto the floor, as the next round from the magazine into the chamber.

You stupid motherfarkers shouldn't post in any gun-related thread. That error like not knowing what the steering wheel in your car is for.


He's probably still confused about what ammo clips are needed for his AK-47 style AR-15 assault rifle
 
2012-12-11 10:19:46 PM  

USP .45: when there is a controversial shooting of a minority suspect by mostly white officers, when aren't the number of rounds fired at the suspect called into question by the media?


What does that have to do with whether or not CCW holders are more accurate shots? You're just implying that CCW holders are more accurate only because they fired so many rounds while falsely assuming that a CCW holder wouldn't fire the same number if not more rounds. 

Seriously, this is a flimsy argument you guys are pushing here.
 
2012-12-11 10:19:52 PM  

way south: Thing is we'd have to compare 40 to 70 grain 5.56mm with the old 190 grain 8mm bruisers from great war era battle rifles.
Assault rounds do serious damage, no question. But the rounds they eventually replaced could strait up murder a guy at over a thousand yards.

Its a night and day difference in the physics of it all.


I have yet to see any study that shows significant differences between the rounds. My colleague who worked with the Marines at Quantico is a rabid disbeliever in "stopping power". I'm inclined to believe him.
 
2012-12-11 10:20:00 PM  

Kit Fister: aninconv


Thank you. I just mentioned to my wife that this is one of the times when being an armed citizen could actually pay off. At the first sign of serious trouble like this, the smart move would be to retreat with your loved ones, seek exit first, cover and/or a hiding spot second and assume an armed defensive position if exit is not an option.

I fail to see the irresponsibility of this behavior, and respectfully reject any objection to my right (and frankly, duty) to do any less.
 
2012-12-11 10:20:41 PM  

FunkOut: I'm going to be honest. I carry a concealed pen because I fantasise about a situation arising where I have to stab someone in the neck with it.


They make those.

/justsayin

poppin'
 
2012-12-11 10:21:15 PM  

Mrtraveler01: USP .45: when there is a controversial shooting of a minority suspect by mostly white officers, when aren't the number of rounds fired at the suspect called into question by the media?

What does that have to do with whether or not CCW holders are more accurate shots? You're just implying that CCW holders are more accurate only because they fired so many rounds while falsely assuming that a CCW holder wouldn't fire the same number if not more rounds. 

Seriously, this is a flimsy argument you guys are pushing here.


I've made 2 unrelated comments and now you're calling it "you guys" and a full on argument.

Get a grip kid.
 
2012-12-11 10:22:03 PM  

Somacandra: I have been informed that Bi-Mart is the place for Christmas savings.


Thank FSM, I wear Depends. Oh, wait.
 
2012-12-11 10:23:37 PM  
Cops tend to shoot a lot when they shoot.

May as well. It's that first round you have to answer for. The rest are pretty much freebies.
 
2012-12-11 10:23:52 PM  
It's a real shame what happened to those early reports.
 
2012-12-11 10:24:01 PM  
I'm going with this wasn't random. I'll bet he had motive, knew his targets, and where they were.
 
2012-12-11 10:24:13 PM  

Mrtraveler01: vygramul: Mrtraveler01: OnlyM3: Fact:
When armed citizens lawfully use their guns to defend themselves they fire fewer shots and more accurately than cops

None of the articles you cited claimed that.

Just for the sake of argument, how would that information, if supported by the statistics, affect your opinion?

I think it's a hard thing to gauge overall.

But if there's evidence that CCW holders are more accurate shots than police officers, then I can see some validity to his claim. But right now, it's just something he pulled out of his ass based on assumptions.


Well I can tell you a could of things:

- cops who are in specialized units like SWAT are more proficient with firearms than most average cops.
- the vast majority of cops are only required to qualify yearly, and do so.
- it is readily observable fact when shooting alongside officers practicing for qualification that they lack basic fundamentals of shooting and safety, and are less accurate than the average gun owner.

Can I cite articles to back this up? No. But I invite you to talk with police officers, police range officers, instructors, and so on, And accompany me to the police range a few times to observe for yourself if you like.
 
2012-12-11 10:24:30 PM  
Lt. Cheese Weasel: Nope, I have the law and Constitution on my side, you have your liberal pillow biting nonsense on yours. Carry on.



That anti-gay slur certainly is allowed under the Farq, right?
 
2012-12-11 10:25:24 PM  

p4p3rm4t3: I'm going with this wasn't random. I'll bet he had motive, knew his targets, and where they were.


He was aiming at random people in the mall.

I'm going with Jared Loughner wannabe.
 
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