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(Jim C. Hiney)   What do media-sexified female poses look like when done by a man? Authors Jim C. Hines and John Scalzi present, "Operation Sexy Leg"   (jimchines.com) divider line 46
    More: Amusing, John Scalzi, Cute Overload, book cover, razor blades, legs, Rocky  
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23081 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Dec 2012 at 1:40 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-12-11 03:45:34 PM  
5 votes:
Obligatory:

i470.photobucket.com
via Link
2012-12-11 02:55:33 PM  
4 votes:

rocky_howard: Dafatone: That's entirely not the point. Men get to be posed in pretty much any way, from looking hot to an action shot to whatever. Women get to be hot. Furthermore, women are posed in completely impossible ways to look hot, whereas men at least get to look real.

[www.dubnerdesign.com image 454x610]

Yeah, so real and totally possible.

Wait, why don't you just shut up? Superhero comics feature impossible bodies and poses for BOTH sexes. This just became an issue because "social justice" and "gender equality" became a thing and now everybody wants to denounce anything they "think" it's wrong just to have a soapbox.

Look at some impossible poses Spider-Man takes:

[media.avclub.com image 627x352]


Men posing and bodies are a non-issue because men don't complain about these things.


The problem is more than a bit less 'ZOMG COMICS MAKE PEOPLE LOOK SEXY THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!11!!eleventy!' and more 'Um, why is it that the male body language is dominant and the female body language is so submissive I could have posted this on a BDSM site?'.

/Because really, I've seen women in less submissive positions on those sites while they were in the sub position for porn shoots.
2012-12-11 02:07:46 PM  
4 votes:

rocky_howard: 1.- Men and Women are attracted to different things, so having Men posing like Women is idiotic. It'd be like what if we used Chinese characters to write in English?


That's entirely not the point. Men get to be posed in pretty much any way, from looking hot to an action shot to whatever. Women get to be hot. Furthermore, women are posed in completely impossible ways to look hot, whereas men at least get to look real.
2012-12-11 04:29:34 PM  
3 votes:

Boojum2k: And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.


It doesn't matter what Batman look like. He's a billionaire.
2012-12-11 02:39:24 PM  
3 votes:
i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com

"B-b-but Spiderman~!!!! B-b-but muscles~!"

So they say, but all I hear is...

"B-b-but white people are victims of racism too! It's called reverse-racism, and it's HORRIBLE! And EVERYWHERE!"
2012-12-11 01:52:50 PM  
3 votes:

Ambivalence: Theaetetus: [cdn.mommyish.com image 332x1024]
Male superheroes posed like Wonder Woman.

The shape of a man's pelvis is such that they are physically incapable of tilting it in that fashion. Which may explain why men find it so alluring in women.


25.media.tumblr.com
The shape of a woman's pelvis is such that they're also physically incapable of tilting it in that fashion... Have you never actually seen a woman?
2012-12-11 12:31:27 PM  
3 votes:
I wish they had done more than just one pose.
2012-12-12 07:13:21 AM  
2 votes:
Another site that reveals the crimes against anatomy in comics is this one:

Escher Girls

The redraws are pretty great.
2012-12-11 10:04:13 PM  
2 votes:

Chthonic Echoes: Dokushin: Is it as pervasive?

In terms of genre fiction, romance is either the 800 or 600 pound gorilla in the room (I forget where mysteries/thrillers rank). Considering how the comic book industry is ailing right now, I would not be surprised if romances are much more widely read than comic books.

Here's something interesting from a writing book I read once (this touches on how media marketed to men or women objectifies the opposite sex, and it's worth contemplating): "This means that he [the male protagonist] must personify the 'five Ss': single, sexy, sweet, smart, solvent (if not actually rich) . . ."


As noted above, that's "false equivalence," because its okay when women do it.

/I don't really care, I am capable of separating fantasy and reality. So are most men and women. You're not going to convince the ones that can't.
Ook
2012-12-11 09:24:14 PM  
2 votes:

Dokushin: I'm not trying to be insensitive, but women have access to a wealth of literature that sexualizes men. When you look deep into these (admittedly a trifle shallow) expressions, I urge you to think about romance novels in which the men were written by a man instead of a woman.

Is it as pervasive? Does it shape society? No, of course not -- there really is some lingering objectification of women in places it doesn't really belong. But reaching deep into targeted media looking for reasons to take offense? Both genders are guilty of having some idealized vision of the other sex, and writing it into media. That's not the problem you want to solve, and you're merely mischaracterizing yourselves by pursuing it.


Too many people claim that that sexualization doesn't actually exist. Its pervasiveness, and the fact that it happens in romance novels as well as comics, isn't something that's going to change, but it needs to be acknowledged as being there or people who don't have good parents who point out the difference between fantasy and reality will think that this is the way the world is and should be. And that's part of why I've had to deal with jerkasses on the street making shiatty aggressive come-ons AND why aging moms made catcalls at the actors from twilight. Neither one is appropriate and the only way to end that is if people can acknowledge that it's not the way reality is or should be.

It's fine for comics to be fantasy. I like a lot of fantasies myself, including some comics (Strangers in Paradise, for instance, and Empowered if you want to get sexier) but everyone needs to be able to say that it's an awesome fantasy and not the way the world just is.
2012-12-11 04:27:08 PM  
2 votes:

Dafatone: Boojum2k: penthesilea: Obligatory:

[i470.photobucket.com image 550x818]
via Link

So the female in the comic is a yaoi fan. You know, there's art out there for her, and she wouldn't like it if the guy got to change it to suit his tastes instead.

You know, your argument would sound better if you didn't say "female" and "guy."


I chose female because she's drawn like a teen, yet argues like a grown woman, and is only clearly "female." In fact, looking at the comic, the detail on her is so much more precise, she even has drawn in eyes, whereas the guy is a horrible caricature, specifically meant to dehumanize. He's a strawman of the artists imagination of a typical "guy."

And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.
2012-12-11 03:16:54 PM  
2 votes:

rocky_howard: dukef: Here's a whole series of them courtesy of a photographer with a sense of humor.

That was a great link. This is an actually apt way of presenting the...I don't want to say issue, because is this even an issue? [...]


I think it is an issue, if you consider that we aren't talking just about comic books, but rather centuries old traditions of representation in both fine art and popular culture in which women are consistently represented either as 1) passive non-agents that exist primarily for the titillation of the male viewer or 2) burlesque, hyperbolic ball busting amazons that exist primarily for the titillation for the male viewer (particularly as the latter allows such a viewer to libidinize the idea of the powerful woman without actually submitting to any women in power). Yes there are important exceptions to this dichotomy (it doesn't by any means describe all images of women), and yes there are female viewers that get off on it too, but it is a powerful representational strain in our culture that helps craft very limiting and even devastating notions of femininity for us. 

/heh, I said "TITillate..."
2012-12-11 02:40:55 PM  
2 votes:
So if we've reached the point where we're complaining about how women are represented in comic books, a medium traditionally marketed to 14 year old boys, I'm going to have to assume that all gender-injustice issues have been resolved.
2012-12-11 02:26:40 PM  
2 votes:

Cythraul: Poses aside, the body build of many male comic heroes is just absurd. Not even with steroids could you look like that image of Captain America.


I think it's funny when the Flash and Hal Jordan look like Arnold Schwarzenegger at his prime. Why would they be muscular at all?
2012-12-11 01:57:48 PM  
2 votes:

JOHN MCENROE MY CHILDHOOD NEMESIS: ...the guys are posed, traditionally, in ways that nerdy guys imagine that women (who are into guys) would find attractive.


My wild guess - maybe I fixed that for you.

Hell if I know what a typical woman would consider to be a hawt superhero pose. I kinda doubt most of the artists know either. These poses probably aren't much more than a stylized tropey thing, now.
2012-12-11 01:45:37 PM  
2 votes:
Jim has done several of these photoshoots. It really brings home how ridiculous book covers are.
2012-12-11 01:44:44 PM  
2 votes:
The one thing I dont understand about the whole 'If guys posed like the girls on Movie Posters/Videos/etc' craze that seems to have people all giggly is that the guys are posed, traditionally, in ways that women (who are into guys) would find attractive.

I mean, think about it. Women, traditionally, find guys' torsos attractive, like washboard abs, low waist jeans, etc. etc.

If you think about it, the guys are being posed like the women, except that men are obviously attracted to different things.
2012-12-11 01:43:07 PM  
2 votes:
i.imgur.com
What if the male Avengers posed like the female one?
2012-12-11 12:30:33 PM  
2 votes:

Because People in power are Stupid: Sick and Wrong


I thought it was kinda hot.
2012-12-13 08:42:03 PM  
1 votes:

penthesilea: Obligatory:

[i470.photobucket.com image 550x818]
via Link


So what you're saying is some comics depict the fantasy of what men want both in themselves and others. That seems like a totally valid equivalency, and pretty basic demographic targeting, as practiced in almost all media outlets these days.

There's certainly room for discussion about how such practices may have undesirable externalities, but it's a much bigger discussion than comics or gender discrimination; there's plenty of entertainment depicting the fantasy of what women (or any other demographic group) want both in themselves and others, with exactly the same sort of side effects on other groups.
2012-12-13 04:16:31 PM  
1 votes:

omeganuepsilon: A lot of comic "art" work is an attempt at motion, characters diving, flipping, etc. For that reason, many such circumstances, male and female characters alike show ass and chest. Acrobatics, contorting like an eel or snake, etc. Justifies some of it,


Exactly. Also, exaggeration. The art is meant to be exaggerated and larger than life.
2012-12-12 02:13:57 PM  
1 votes:

Boojum2k: And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.


And you're basing this on.... what? Some scientific study? You polled your women friends? You're a woman yourself and therefore know what women like?

And before you ask, I'm not claiming to know what kind of man the average woman finds sexist. But if you're going to make a claim about about what women prefer, you should back it up.
2012-12-12 05:39:41 AM  
1 votes:

weltallica: white people are victims of racism too! It's called racism


FTFY

Just because it`s against white people does not make it `reverse`, it`s still racism you f*ck. It is still racist to judge someone by the colour of their skin even if that skin is not black.

You don`t seem to realise this.

On the flip side, that does not make racism OK.
2012-12-12 01:52:22 AM  
1 votes:
Is it just me or is there a real streak of social conservatism amongst social justice crusaders?

What's the status of porn amongst these people? Is porn liberating or is it objectifying women?
2012-12-11 07:36:21 PM  
1 votes:
I'm not trying to be insensitive, but women have access to a wealth of literature that sexualizes men. When you look deep into these (admittedly a trifle shallow) expressions, I urge you to think about romance novels in which the men were written by a man instead of a woman.

Is it as pervasive? Does it shape society? No, of course not -- there really is some lingering objectification of women in places it doesn't really belong. But reaching deep into targeted media looking for reasons to take offense? Both genders are guilty of having some idealized vision of the other sex, and writing it into media. That's not the problem you want to solve, and you're merely mischaracterizing yourselves by pursuing it.
2012-12-11 07:25:58 PM  
1 votes:

penthesilea: Obligatory:

[i470.photobucket.com image 550x818]
via Link


How is the portrayal of women in comics not a power fantasy for them aswell? The women are often strong, beautiful, desired, rich, intelligent...

And the character in that comic isnt a girl or a female. Its a chick. "chick" is the correct term i believe...
2012-12-11 06:19:04 PM  
1 votes:

Boojum2k: Dafatone: Boojum2k: penthesilea: Obligatory:

[i470.photobucket.com image 550x818]
via Link

So the female in the comic is a yaoi fan. You know, there's art out there for her, and she wouldn't like it if the guy got to change it to suit his tastes instead.

You know, your argument would sound better if you didn't say "female" and "guy."

I chose female because she's drawn like a teen, yet argues like a grown woman, and is only clearly "female." In fact, looking at the comic, the detail on her is so much more precise, she even has drawn in eyes, whereas the guy is a horrible caricature, specifically meant to dehumanize. He's a strawman of the artists imagination of a typical "guy."

And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.


If I find clever women with glasses and clipboards attractive, does that mean that comic is a sexual objectification of women?

/So, about this "false equivalence" thing...
2012-12-11 03:13:02 PM  
1 votes:

rocky_howard: PsiChick: The problem is more than a bit less 'ZOMG COMICS MAKE PEOPLE LOOK SEXY THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!11!!eleventy!' and more 'Um, why is it that the male body language is dominant and the female body language is so submissive I could have posted this on a BDSM site?'.

/Because really, I've seen women in less submissive positions on those sites while they were in the sub position for porn shoots.

Now this is an interesting position. Yeah, I can see why some of those would be seen as submissive. But are we going to have an standardized discussion? Because this is all over the place, as it is.

For example, look for Mega Steve post featuring two amazon-like women holding swords. Do you consider that to be submissive?


The one where they're very clearly not wearing bras, their clothes are half torn off, and they're doing that half-bow meant to show off ass and tits? That's submissive as hell--it's implying that the viewer gets to dominate these women who no one else can dominate. That's a lot of the 'token strong woman' stuff, too--instead of an actual human being, it's just a walking weapon the main character can 'tame'.

/If I weren't aromantic that would drive me up the wall, because lately that one gets defined as romantic love. As it is, I just said 'fark it, this book has no pairings' and made everyone siblings.
2012-12-11 02:54:12 PM  
1 votes:
Comic book raging and no .gif of Joker eating popcorn?
2012-12-11 02:53:11 PM  
1 votes:

farkingnotworking: Old insights are so exciting!

Art Historian Linda Nochlin famously made this kind of comparison in an essay from 1971. She compared a nudie photo from the early late 19th century of a chick serving her tits up on a tray with apples (The title is "Buy my Apples") with a photograph of a hippie friend of hers that she titled "Buy my Bananas." You can imagine what the latter looks like. Click here to see the mildly NSFW image.


Full frontal nudity is MILDLY not safe for work?

/cool find, though
2012-12-11 02:50:19 PM  
1 votes:

LectertheChef: Moto Corsa, a Ducati dealership, did it better, with their Manigale photos.


Fantastic! Guys cheated by wearing 2.5" or so heels while the singular female model was wearing 5"+ heels.
2012-12-11 02:45:45 PM  
1 votes:

rocky_howard: More Nightwing goodness:

[media.comicvine.com image 534x641]


Cool so there's ONE male superhero that's drawn as ridiculously as 99% of the female characters are. Your argument is akin to, "but I have a black friend!"
2012-12-11 02:43:36 PM  
1 votes:

rocky_howard: Dafatone: Liefeld is practically cheating here. You're right that men are depicted as being impossibly built. But more often than not, they're not impossibly contorted. Meanwhile, women manage to have both breasts and ass pointed at the camera.

I mean, the Avengers poster makes it pretty obvious. Men are doing things, the woman is pointed ass-first.

Also, there's no need to be a dick.

Sorry for being a dick. I just get heated. *brofist*

True, but that's because women tend to be the agile type of character, while many of the men are stronghouses. But if you look at agile male characters they're just as contorted as the women. And c'mon, there's almost a religion around Nightwing's butt, so you can't say he doesn't show it.



And regarding the Avengers pic. Completely false. Sorry, but no.

1.- Scarlett Johansson is standing there. There's no way you can put her where we can't see her ample assets.

2.- It's just selective bias. Look at Hawkeye, I could say he's prominently featuring his crotch. Also, Scarlett isn't jutting her ass backwards like the guys are doing in the reverse picture and I wont' even touch the Hulk.

If someone can't make their point without resorting to distort the original picture, then it's a poor point. OF COURSE it's gonna be ridiculous if you draw it ridiculous. Such ridiculousness doesn't trace back to the original.


Scarlett Johanson is the only personhim that pic whose ass you can see, and you can also conveniently see a very prominent sideboob profile. Hawkeye's crotch is obscured by dust particles, and there's no bulge or silhouette. Cap also lacks a bulge, which is the closest equivalent to side boob profile. Sorry, but the female in this image clearly is going for Sexy while the guys are going for Badass.
2012-12-11 02:29:43 PM  
1 votes:

rocky_howard: Yeah, so real and totally possible.

Wait, why don't you just shut up? Superhero comics feature impossible bodies and poses for BOTH sexes. This just became an issue because "social justice" and "gender equality" became a thing and now everybody wants to denounce anything they "think" it's wrong just to have a soapbox.


Liefeld is practically cheating here. You're right that men are depicted as being impossibly built. But more often than not, they're not impossibly contorted. Meanwhile, women manage to have both breasts and ass pointed at the camera.

I mean, the Avengers poster makes it pretty obvious. Men are doing things, the woman is pointed ass-first.

Also, there's no need to be a dick.
2012-12-11 02:22:03 PM  
1 votes:
It's almost as if comic books don't accurately reflect reality.
2012-12-11 02:16:37 PM  
1 votes:

Dafatone: That's entirely not the point. Men get to be posed in pretty much any way, from looking hot to an action shot to whatever. Women get to be hot. Furthermore, women are posed in completely impossible ways to look hot, whereas men at least get to look real.


www.dubnerdesign.com

Yeah, so real and totally possible.

Wait, why don't you just shut up? Superhero comics feature impossible bodies and poses for BOTH sexes. This just became an issue because "social justice" and "gender equality" became a thing and now everybody wants to denounce anything they "think" it's wrong just to have a soapbox.

Look at some impossible poses Spider-Man takes:

media.avclub.com


Men posing and bodies are a non-issue because men don't complain about these things.
2012-12-11 01:59:58 PM  
1 votes:

rocky_howard: The people who do these pieces are missing two important points:


1.- Men and Women are attracted to different things, so having Men posing like Women is idiotic. It'd be like what if we used Chinese characters to write in English?

2.- If you want to do a proper comparison, at least don't exaggerate your depiction to make the original look worse. Look at the Wonder Woman and Avengers pictures in this thread. In the originals, the woman isn't doing anything even close to being as ridiculous as what the men are doing in the reverse pictures.


Bingo. In fact, going one step further, as a woman who likes sexy female bodies AND sexy male bodies, I'm not looking at the same parts on the different bodies. A man posing like a woman is as ridiculous as a woman posing like a man. Those poses don't emphasize the parts that make the various people look sexy. All these "comparisons" are doing is trying to say the artist or photographer is being sexist by overemphasizing the woman's breasts or making her look "submissive" or whatever, and wouldn't it be dumb if men did the same thing?

Which may or may not be true; but don't pretend that your reversal has anything to do with mere role reversal.
2012-12-11 01:59:27 PM  
1 votes:
I really don't need that to be my image of what John Scalzi looks like.
2012-12-11 01:55:26 PM  
1 votes:
30.media.tumblr.com
See how Wonder Woman's shoulders are back, while she's thrusting her chest forward, while rotating almost 180 degrees? Not even a contortionist can do that one:
media.tumblr.com
2012-12-11 01:47:08 PM  
1 votes:
Not as good as The Hawkeye Initiative.
2012-12-11 01:47:06 PM  
1 votes:
Meh...it's been done

i523.photobucket.com

Sexy
2012-12-11 01:44:55 PM  
1 votes:
cdn.mommyish.com
Male superheroes posed like Wonder Woman.
2012-12-11 01:44:42 PM  
1 votes:

Theaetetus: [i.imgur.com image 687x1044]
What if the male Avengers posed like the female one?


I'll be in my bunk...
2012-12-11 01:43:54 PM  
1 votes:
http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/

Try not to laugh soda out your nose.
2012-12-11 12:42:45 PM  
1 votes:
wac.450f.edgecastcdn.net
Did someone say Dean?
2012-12-11 12:24:35 PM  
1 votes:
Sick and Wrong
 
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