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(Jim C. Hiney)   What do media-sexified female poses look like when done by a man? Authors Jim C. Hines and John Scalzi present, "Operation Sexy Leg"   (jimchines.com ) divider line
    More: Amusing, John Scalzi, Cute Overload, book cover, razor blades, legs, Rocky  
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23097 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Dec 2012 at 1:40 PM (3 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-12 04:55:03 PM  

ciberido: Boojum2k: And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.

And you're basing this on.... what? Some scientific study? You polled your women friends? You're a woman yourself and therefore know what women like?

And before you ask, I'm not claiming to know what kind of man the average woman finds sexist. But if you're going to make a claim about about what women prefer, you should back it up.


Did you read my post above? I'm not going to go searching for underwear ads at work, but the women on the show I was watching all went crazy for a picture of David Beckam with a serious, intense, bad-boy pose. And that didn't seem very out of ordinary to me at all. That batman picture looks like a guy who'd be too shy to ask you for your phone number.
 
2012-12-12 05:00:18 PM  

sp86: Nobody cares what lurkers think, why the hell would I think that? There you go supposing for other people again, with no clue of what's really going on. When you build your rhetoric on that sort of dishonesty it's no wonder you object to people calling a dumb fark a dumb fark.


Nice try, but you're as transparent as glass. Just stop posting and save yourself more embarrassment. Again, keep the insults up, it amuses us.
 
2012-12-12 05:05:24 PM  

rocky_howard: Ook: and because you recognized those were fantasies, did you also recognize the interpersonal dynamics as fantasies? The postures? The ethnic make-up of the hordes of bystanders? You were an amazingly sophisticated child then, because there are a fair number of websites where people will argue that the comics get those just fine.

Clearly superhero comics, an phenomenon barely 80 years old, is the cause of those problems that have existed since thousands of years ago.


No, you jacknapkin. It's a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.
 
2012-12-12 05:09:38 PM  

rocky_howard: sp86: Nobody cares what lurkers think, why the hell would I think that? There you go supposing for other people again, with no clue of what's really going on. When you build your rhetoric on that sort of dishonesty it's no wonder you object to people calling a dumb fark a dumb fark.

Nice try, but you're as transparent as glass. Just stop posting and save yourself more embarrassment. Again, keep the insults up, it amuses us.


"Us." As if you have friends on fark.

lol
 
2012-12-12 05:22:32 PM  

browntimmy: ciberido: Boojum2k: And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.

And you're basing this on.... what? Some scientific study? You polled your women friends? You're a woman yourself and therefore know what women like?

And before you ask, I'm not claiming to know what kind of man the average woman finds sexist. But if you're going to make a claim about about what women prefer, you should back it up.

Did you read my post above? I'm not going to go searching for underwear ads at work, but the women on the show I was watching all went crazy for a picture of David Beckam with a serious, intense, bad-boy pose. And that didn't seem very out of ordinary to me at all. That batman picture looks like a guy who'd be too shy to ask you for your phone number.


That Batman has a strong jaw and a ripped-but-human physique, rather than the ridiculous-built physiques of most superheroes. Beckham's body type is like that: great shape but not a huge pile of muscle. The only difference is the eyes. And we're talking about a cartoon.
 
2012-12-12 05:31:03 PM  

Dafatone: browntimmy: ciberido: Boojum2k: And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.

And you're basing this on.... what? Some scientific study? You polled your women friends? You're a woman yourself and therefore know what women like?

And before you ask, I'm not claiming to know what kind of man the average woman finds sexist. But if you're going to make a claim about about what women prefer, you should back it up.

Did you read my post above? I'm not going to go searching for underwear ads at work, but the women on the show I was watching all went crazy for a picture of David Beckam with a serious, intense, bad-boy pose. And that didn't seem very out of ordinary to me at all. That batman picture looks like a guy who'd be too shy to ask you for your phone number.

That Batman has a strong jaw and a ripped-but-human physique, rather than the ridiculous-built physiques of most superheroes. Beckham's body type is like that: great shape but not a huge pile of muscle. The only difference is the eyes. And we're talking about a cartoon.


Okay, so say someone wanted to illustrate a sexy David Beckham for the ad, would they give him those same eyes and bashful pose?
 
2012-12-12 05:33:44 PM  

browntimmy: Dafatone: browntimmy: ciberido: Boojum2k: And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.

And you're basing this on.... what? Some scientific study? You polled your women friends? You're a woman yourself and therefore know what women like?

And before you ask, I'm not claiming to know what kind of man the average woman finds sexist. But if you're going to make a claim about about what women prefer, you should back it up.

Did you read my post above? I'm not going to go searching for underwear ads at work, but the women on the show I was watching all went crazy for a picture of David Beckam with a serious, intense, bad-boy pose. And that didn't seem very out of ordinary to me at all. That batman picture looks like a guy who'd be too shy to ask you for your phone number.

That Batman has a strong jaw and a ripped-but-human physique, rather than the ridiculous-built physiques of most superheroes. Beckham's body type is like that: great shape but not a huge pile of muscle. The only difference is the eyes. And we're talking about a cartoon.

Okay, so say someone wanted to illustrate a sexy David Beckham for the ad, would they give him those same eyes and bashful pose?


Uh, no? Because Beckham's not a cartoon, so he wouldn't have giant cartoon eyes?

And how is that pose bashful? The eyes are, but the pose is just... standing there.
 
2012-12-12 05:39:16 PM  

Dafatone: browntimmy: Dafatone: browntimmy: ciberido: Boojum2k: And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.

And you're basing this on.... what? Some scientific study? You polled your women friends? You're a woman yourself and therefore know what women like?

And before you ask, I'm not claiming to know what kind of man the average woman finds sexist. But if you're going to make a claim about about what women prefer, you should back it up.

Did you read my post above? I'm not going to go searching for underwear ads at work, but the women on the show I was watching all went crazy for a picture of David Beckam with a serious, intense, bad-boy pose. And that didn't seem very out of ordinary to me at all. That batman picture looks like a guy who'd be too shy to ask you for your phone number.

That Batman has a strong jaw and a ripped-but-human physique, rather than the ridiculous-built physiques of most superheroes. Beckham's body type is like that: great shape but not a huge pile of muscle. The only difference is the eyes. And we're talking about a cartoon.

Okay, so say someone wanted to illustrate a sexy David Beckham for the ad, would they give him those same eyes and bashful pose?

Uh, no? Because Beckham's not a cartoon, so he wouldn't have giant cartoon eyes?

And how is that pose bashful? The eyes are, but the pose is just... standing there.


Very good, but someone could certainly illustrate a depiction of him, correct? If the intent is to be sexy, which look do you think appeals to the most women?
 
2012-12-12 05:45:37 PM  

browntimmy: Very good, but someone could certainly illustrate a depiction of him, correct? If the intent is to be sexy, which look do you think appeals to the most women?


The one with him doing the dishes and taking out the trash?
 
2012-12-12 06:01:58 PM  
i470.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-12 06:18:42 PM  

browntimmy: Dafatone: Team Loki!

Nuh-uh, Team Thor!!1


I think there's a tiny chance that maybe you're not going to be able to converge on a single ideal male aesthetic from the perspective of all women.

/Though from the fangirls I know
//Hiddleston's got a healthy lead on Hemsworth
 
2012-12-12 06:35:38 PM  

ProfessorOhki: I think there's a tiny chance that maybe you're not going to be able to converge on a single ideal male aesthetic from the perspective of all women.


But I can.

rich
 
2012-12-12 06:37:30 PM  

browntimmy: Dafatone: browntimmy: Dafatone: browntimmy: ciberido: Boojum2k: And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.

And you're basing this on.... what? Some scientific study? You polled your women friends? You're a woman yourself and therefore know what women like?

And before you ask, I'm not claiming to know what kind of man the average woman finds sexist. But if you're going to make a claim about about what women prefer, you should back it up.

Did you read my post above? I'm not going to go searching for underwear ads at work, but the women on the show I was watching all went crazy for a picture of David Beckam with a serious, intense, bad-boy pose. And that didn't seem very out of ordinary to me at all. That batman picture looks like a guy who'd be too shy to ask you for your phone number.

That Batman has a strong jaw and a ripped-but-human physique, rather than the ridiculous-built physiques of most superheroes. Beckham's body type is like that: great shape but not a huge pile of muscle. The only difference is the eyes. And we're talking about a cartoon.

Okay, so say someone wanted to illustrate a sexy David Beckham for the ad, would they give him those same eyes and bashful pose?

Uh, no? Because Beckham's not a cartoon, so he wouldn't have giant cartoon eyes?

And how is that pose bashful? The eyes are, but the pose is just... standing there.

Very good, but someone could certainly illustrate a depiction of him, correct? If the intent is to be sexy, which look do you think appeals to the most women?


As mentioned in the post above, it's not like there's one ideal or anything. Besides, I think (to completely contradict what I just said) you're putting too much emphasis on pose and attitude. Beckham's hot, whether he's being a bad boy or baking a cake.
 
2012-12-12 07:33:09 PM  

Dafatone: browntimmy: Dafatone: browntimmy: Dafatone: browntimmy: ciberido: Boojum2k: And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.

And you're basing this on.... what? Some scientific study? You polled your women friends? You're a woman yourself and therefore know what women like?

And before you ask, I'm not claiming to know what kind of man the average woman finds sexist. But if you're going to make a claim about about what women prefer, you should back it up.

Did you read my post above? I'm not going to go searching for underwear ads at work, but the women on the show I was watching all went crazy for a picture of David Beckam with a serious, intense, bad-boy pose. And that didn't seem very out of ordinary to me at all. That batman picture looks like a guy who'd be too shy to ask you for your phone number.

That Batman has a strong jaw and a ripped-but-human physique, rather than the ridiculous-built physiques of most superheroes. Beckham's body type is like that: great shape but not a huge pile of muscle. The only difference is the eyes. And we're talking about a cartoon.

Okay, so say someone wanted to illustrate a sexy David Beckham for the ad, would they give him those same eyes and bashful pose?

Uh, no? Because Beckham's not a cartoon, so he wouldn't have giant cartoon eyes?

And how is that pose bashful? The eyes are, but the pose is just... standing there.

Very good, but someone could certainly illustrate a depiction of him, correct? If the intent is to be sexy, which look do you think appeals to the most women?

As mentioned in the post above, it's not like there's one ideal or anything. Besides, I think (to completely contradict what I just said) you're putting too much emphasis on pose and attitude. Beckham's hot, whether he's being a bad boy or baking a cake.


And Scarlet Johanson would be hot making a sandwich with a goofy "Aw schucks" look on her face, but it wouldn't be as attention-getting as giving a sexy confident stare to the camera and showing cleavage. And both of you missed that I said "most" women.
 
2012-12-12 09:08:41 PM  

sp86: "Us." As if you have friends on fark.

lol


you come to FARK to make friends? Bigger LOL.
 
2012-12-12 09:09:34 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: No, you jacknapkin. It's a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself.


Ah, look, the old trick of "I can't deal with his argument, so let me insult him and say something witty"
 
2012-12-12 09:15:42 PM  

Dafatone: That Batman has a strong jaw and a ripped-but-human physique, rather than the ridiculous-built physiques of most superheroes. Beckham's body type is like that: great shape but not a huge pile of muscle. The only difference is the eyes. And we're talking about a cartoon.


Sorry but no, the more you use the word "ridiculous", the less weight your argument has.

You can't present to propositions and use such a vague adjective as a value of judgement upon one of them while using the other as fact. It's biased. You're not better than Fox News.

Illustrations don't have to conform to the exact real life representation of the subject. That actually stands against the very concept of illustration since you're using lines and limited color to represent the topics, not photographs.

What's next? We're going to criticize Johnny Bravo for being "ridiculous"?

(And again, ridiculous is so vague and subjective that it's a useless adjective. It doesn't mean anything nowadays. You don't like something? Just say it's ridiculous and that's that.)
 
2012-12-12 09:16:23 PM  
Totally ridiculous
madeira.hccanet.org
 
2012-12-12 10:17:18 PM  

rocky_howard: Dafatone: That Batman has a strong jaw and a ripped-but-human physique, rather than the ridiculous-built physiques of most superheroes. Beckham's body type is like that: great shape but not a huge pile of muscle. The only difference is the eyes. And we're talking about a cartoon.

Sorry but no, the more you use the word "ridiculous", the less weight your argument has.

You can't present to propositions and use such a vague adjective as a value of judgement upon one of them while using the other as fact. It's biased. You're not better than Fox News.

Illustrations don't have to conform to the exact real life representation of the subject. That actually stands against the very concept of illustration since you're using lines and limited color to represent the topics, not photographs.

What's next? We're going to criticize Johnny Bravo for being "ridiculous"?

(And again, ridiculous is so vague and subjective that it's a useless adjective. It doesn't mean anything nowadays. You don't like something? Just say it's ridiculous and that's that.)


You're... really overreacting to that word.

And you're pretty close to the problem, too. Which is that women are drawn/portrayed almost only one way, which is unrealistically stacked with breasts and ass pointed impossibly at the camera. Meanwhile, men get a little more flexibility, in that they're either lean and ripped (spiderman) or monstrously built. This lack of flexibility for women is an issue, as is the fact that men are slightly more realistic, in that they're less often as twisted.
 
2012-12-12 10:27:57 PM  

Dafatone: You're... really overreacting to that word.


No, I'm not overreacting. It's the necessary reaction, it's a useless filler word.

And you're pretty close to the problem, too. Which is that women are drawn/portrayed almost only one way, which is unrealistically stacked with breasts and ass pointed impossibly at the camera. Meanwhile, men get a little more flexibility, in that they're either lean and ripped (spiderman) or monstrously built. This lack of flexibility for women is an issue, as is the fact that men are slightly more realistic, in that they're less often as twisted.

Okay, that's something I have no problems admitting. Men have a slightly larger variety of body types in superhero comics. Now, men in real life also have a larger gamut of body types since their muscles can grow bigger than women's. Talking about fit Olympic level bodies. Obviously fat distribution created different body types as well, pear shaped, ball shaped, etc so things are more even in that regard.

Problem is, superhero comics focus on perfect bodies and again, men do have a slightly larger gamut of body types in that category.
 
2012-12-13 01:56:53 PM  

ProfessorOhki: browntimmy: Dafatone: Team Loki!

Nuh-uh, Team Thor!!1

I think there's a tiny chance that maybe you're not going to be able to converge on a single ideal male aesthetic from the perspective of all women.

/Though from the fangirls I know
//Hiddleston's got a healthy lead on Hemsworth


which is a shame, because, as a painfully straight guy, if both of those fellows walked up to me in a bar and started flirting me me, i'd let Chris Hemsworth buy me dinner first.

/but only dinner.
//okay, maybe coffee afterwards. but no more.
///well, okay maybe if he was really smooth we could play just the tip.
//dafuqdidijusttype?
 
2012-12-13 02:22:44 PM  

rocky_howard: Dafatone: You're... really overreacting to that word.

No, I'm not overreacting. It's the necessary reaction, it's a useless filler word.

And you're pretty close to the problem, too. Which is that women are drawn/portrayed almost only one way, which is unrealistically stacked with breasts and ass pointed impossibly at the camera. Meanwhile, men get a little more flexibility, in that they're either lean and ripped (spiderman) or monstrously built. This lack of flexibility for women is an issue, as is the fact that men are slightly more realistic, in that they're less often as twisted.

Okay, that's something I have no problems admitting. Men have a slightly larger variety of body types in superhero comics. Now, men in real life also have a larger gamut of body types since their muscles can grow bigger than women's. Talking about fit Olympic level bodies. Obviously fat distribution created different body types as well, pear shaped, ball shaped, etc so things are more even in that regard.

Problem is, superhero comics focus on perfect bodies and again, men do have a slightly larger gamut of body types in that category.


Another thing to consider.
(Leffield-esq LSD addled drawings aside)

A lot of comic "art" work is an attempt at motion, characters diving, flipping, etc. For that reason, many such circumstances, male and female characters alike show ass and chest. Acrobatics, contorting like an eel or snake, etc. Justifies some of it, people gliding through the air like fish do in water. It happens when you stick people in situations where they're doing things other than just standing there, more so in unrealistic actions like flying. Just because someone see's tit and ass cleavage in one picture does not necessarily mean that sexiness was the express purpose.
Not denying it's amplified for the cause, as it were, but some of it would be purely natural in the circumstance.

To further put some ideals in perspective, there are a lot of romantic notions in the way males are displayed. Emo profile images with their head hung low, fist clenching dog tags....these are more of a trope than any realistic depiction of people. So one could argue that men get just as bad as women for not fitting reality.(again, lefield physique aside)

Men being emotional in that way, women being powerful action heroes. If anything, comics bust more stereotypes than they perpetrate.
 
2012-12-13 04:16:31 PM  

omeganuepsilon: A lot of comic "art" work is an attempt at motion, characters diving, flipping, etc. For that reason, many such circumstances, male and female characters alike show ass and chest. Acrobatics, contorting like an eel or snake, etc. Justifies some of it,


Exactly. Also, exaggeration. The art is meant to be exaggerated and larger than life.
 
2012-12-13 08:42:03 PM  

penthesilea: Obligatory:

[i470.photobucket.com image 550x818]
via Link


So what you're saying is some comics depict the fantasy of what men want both in themselves and others. That seems like a totally valid equivalency, and pretty basic demographic targeting, as practiced in almost all media outlets these days.

There's certainly room for discussion about how such practices may have undesirable externalities, but it's a much bigger discussion than comics or gender discrimination; there's plenty of entertainment depicting the fantasy of what women (or any other demographic group) want both in themselves and others, with exactly the same sort of side effects on other groups.
 
Ook
2012-12-13 09:35:11 PM  

profplump: penthesilea: Obligatory:

[i470.photobucket.com image 550x818]
via Link

So what you're saying is some comics depict the fantasy of what men want both in themselves and others. That seems like a totally valid equivalency, and pretty basic demographic targeting, as practiced in almost all media outlets these days.

There's certainly room for discussion about how such practices may have undesirable externalities, but it's a much bigger discussion than comics or gender discrimination; there's plenty of entertainment depicting the fantasy of what women (or any other demographic group) want both in themselves and others, with exactly the same sort of side effects on other groups.


The problem really is that on one side you have people saying "we see this and it's WRONG and ruins everything!!!" and on the other you have people saying "it's perfectly balanced and could have no impact on anything!!!" and then people in the middle saying "uh, sure, I see it, but that happens in any media, who gives a shiat"

If everyone could say "ok, I see it" we could move on to figuring out if it actually matters. Does it impact or just reflect? A lot of more interesting ideas are getting bogged down in debates that boil down to "yes, this exists. will you just admit it already?"

Everyone accepts that there is more violence in video games than in real life, we can then debate whether or not viewing that changes your interaction with reality. We haven't gotten to that point with comics for most people yet, and things like these pictures and the hawkeye initiative thing get more people to agree that it exists.

It would be nice if the arguments could be had one at a time, because I think it'd be easier to get people to see the disparity if they weren't also fighting how much it could be affecting every/anything. I've been arguing that it exists, and had people fight back as though I said comics were the cause of all imbalance. Eesh people. Once you agree something exists and define some parameters for it you can set up studies to see if it has an affect. Can't really make a strong argument one way or the other until then.
 
2012-12-13 10:44:10 PM  

Ook: Everyone accepts that there is more violence in video games than in real life, we can then debate whether or not viewing that changes your interaction with reality.


Not much debate to that one. Regardless to people's claims, millions upon millions(500k on just the latest call of duty, on xbox, as of 10 minutes ago, 500k online and playing who are not murderers) of people play video games and do not become murderers, gun nuts, or hyper aggressive psycho's.

Most people that you hear about, it's a correlation vs causation sort of deal. They are farked up people who happen to have played video games. They have an inner rage that will trigger on anything, it just happened to be video games.

All media works that way. The rapist had problems, likely before he saw porn at all, porn is not to blame.

As you said, it's a reflection. People produce what sells. What sells more than anything? Sex. Sex sells. All the way from porn to the bimbo's on FOX news, even CNN.

Emo sells too, look at Twilight.

A lot of people try to make it look like some conspiracy, some imaginary party trying to dictate what people should look like. No, the market does not work like that. Sure, it's a side effect for people who don't realize what pretty/sexy/etc really is. These people, these insecure to a fault people, they have a complex and they "learn".

The religious blame the devil, the misandrists blame the men, they misogynists blame the women, the blacks blame the whites, the whites the blacks, etc.

The masses though, they know what they like, they buy what they like, and they like Sex. That's the uncanny thing about the media/advertisers. They do it all out of greed, but they have made an art out of finding out what's most pleasing to those of us, down to the gritty details.

They've come to define society much like a dictionary does to language. That is not the same as dictate. It's more a descriptive thing, they split it up, categorize it, and slap a label on it. As in language, the written word is not law for the spoken word, written "rules" are an attempt to describe it.

Sure, some of it preys on the insecure, much the way language "authorities" do. Ad companies want profit, "authorities" on language want to feel superior and ordered.

I find it especially humorous, Militant Feminists, they want Ads to become less "predatory", because, as they purport in an unspoken fashion, women are apparently easily led by the nose and NEED that protection.

I find the idea very contrary to itself. Some individuals have problems, but not the sex as a whole.
 
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