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(Jim C. Hiney)   What do media-sexified female poses look like when done by a man? Authors Jim C. Hines and John Scalzi present, "Operation Sexy Leg"   (jimchines.com) divider line 226
    More: Amusing, John Scalzi, Cute Overload, book cover, razor blades, legs, Rocky  
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23088 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Dec 2012 at 1:40 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-11 02:54:17 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: You have a problem with my use of the word ridiculous? So you don't think that Nightwing image is absolutely ridiculous?


Yes, I have. Since "ridiculous" has become the adjective du jour on the Internet when you don't really have a valid point and just want to sound like you do.

Why would I think Nightwing's image is ridiculous? Oh because you can see his crotch? Why don't you grow up?
 
2012-12-11 02:54:48 PM  

Cythraul: Seriously? The image of Captain America has a point of view where you're looking at him almost directly facing his side. Arnold has somewhat turned his body towards the camera.


This. You see some of Cap's back or at least the back side of the arm, and Ahnold is somewhat contorted puffing the chest, Cap is just standing there but with his head turned.

encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com 

Yes, that's Lefield's face over the penny
 
2012-12-11 02:55:05 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: farkingnotworking: Old insights are so exciting!

Art Historian Linda Nochlin famously made this kind of comparison in an essay from 1971. She compared a nudie photo from the early late 19th century of a chick serving her tits up on a tray with apples (The title is "Buy my Apples") with a photograph of a hippie friend of hers that she titled "Buy my Bananas." You can imagine what the latter looks like. Click here to see the mildly NSFW image.

Full frontal nudity is MILDLY not safe for work?

/cool find, though


Ooh... Okay, sorry. It's just that they are such silly images, I assumed it would be hard for anyone to consider them threatening. I look at naked pictures all day as part of my job, so I guess I'm a little desensitized...
 
2012-12-11 02:55:33 PM  

rocky_howard: Dafatone: That's entirely not the point. Men get to be posed in pretty much any way, from looking hot to an action shot to whatever. Women get to be hot. Furthermore, women are posed in completely impossible ways to look hot, whereas men at least get to look real.

[www.dubnerdesign.com image 454x610]

Yeah, so real and totally possible.

Wait, why don't you just shut up? Superhero comics feature impossible bodies and poses for BOTH sexes. This just became an issue because "social justice" and "gender equality" became a thing and now everybody wants to denounce anything they "think" it's wrong just to have a soapbox.

Look at some impossible poses Spider-Man takes:

[media.avclub.com image 627x352]


Men posing and bodies are a non-issue because men don't complain about these things.


The problem is more than a bit less 'ZOMG COMICS MAKE PEOPLE LOOK SEXY THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!11!!eleventy!' and more 'Um, why is it that the male body language is dominant and the female body language is so submissive I could have posted this on a BDSM site?'.

/Because really, I've seen women in less submissive positions on those sites while they were in the sub position for porn shoots.
 
2012-12-11 02:58:28 PM  

PsiChick: The problem is more than a bit less 'ZOMG COMICS MAKE PEOPLE LOOK SEXY THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!11!!eleventy!' and more 'Um, why is it that the male body language is dominant and the female body language is so submissive I could have posted this on a BDSM site?'.

/Because really, I've seen women in less submissive positions on those sites while they were in the sub position for porn shoots.


Now this is an interesting position. Yeah, I can see why some of those would be seen as submissive. But are we going to have an standardized discussion? Because this is all over the place, as it is.

For example, look for Mega Steve post featuring two amazon-like women holding swords. Do you consider that to be submissive?
 
2012-12-11 02:58:53 PM  
Here's a whole series of them courtesy of a photographer with a sense of humor.
 
2012-12-11 03:02:14 PM  

dericwater: LectertheChef: Moto Corsa, a Ducati dealership, did it better, with their Manigale photos.

Fantastic! Guys cheated by wearing 2.5" or so heels while the singular female model was wearing 5"+ heels.



You try finding a pair of stilettos in a men's 12.5 EEE!
 
2012-12-11 03:02:16 PM  

rocky_howard: Mike Chewbacca: If the brown particulate floating around in the image obscuring Hawkeye's crotch isn't dust, then what is it? And again, there's no bulge and no profile. It's just a flat area where his legs meet up with his torso. Same goes for Cappy.

It's not obscuring anything, that's just a lame excuse.


It's not an excuse. There's absolutely nothing sexualized about Hawkeye's crotch.

And Scarlett's is just the area where her legs meet

You were the one who brought up crotches..

Also notice that even in the reverse pic you can see her ample breasts, so is that also sexist?

She has ample breasts. In the second image, she's facing the "camera" and so her breasts are visible, but nothing is done to draw attention to them. In the original, the character is turned in such a way that her breasts are silhouetted perfectly by a much lighter background. They are very sexualized, and the contrast in the dark uniform and the very light background immediately calls attention to her tits. It's almost like black and white are the first thing human eyes see (which is why that Tool song goes, "Black and white are all I see, red and yellow that came to be, reaching out to me, lets me see"). In the second image, Scarlett's arm is behind her boob, so there is no silhouette.
 
2012-12-11 03:03:40 PM  

dukef: Here's a whole series of them courtesy of a photographer with a sense of humor.


That was a great link. This is an actually apt way of presenting the...I don't want to say issue, because is this even an issue?...so I'll say the phenomenon, the occurence, the instance. The men are selling it straight, not excessive overacting to "prove a point", just the sexes reversed. Pretty good.

Now, the message my mind gets from looking at those images is simple:

These dudes look gay. (Gay as in homosexual, not as an insult)
 
2012-12-11 03:03:56 PM  

Dafatone:
/Is crotch emphasis really the way guys get sexualized anyway?


I'm gonna go ahead and take a wild-ass guess that men and women are sexualized by emphasizing their secondary sexual characteristics (men: muscles, manly jawlines, and sometimes facial hair depending on what's in fashion; women: hips and boobs and flowing head-hair) and that comic book art is as often stylized as it is representational.

But that's just a guess :/
 
2012-12-11 03:04:31 PM  

rocky_howard: Nightwing Butt, missing from the previous post:

[i34.photobucket.com image 767x520]


Looks like he's farting, with the sound effect added.
 
2012-12-11 03:06:14 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: She has ample breasts. In the second image, she's facing the "camera" and so her breasts are visible, but nothing is done to draw attention to them. In the original, the character is turned in such a way that her breasts are silhouetted perfectly by a much lighter background. They are very sexualized, and the contrast in the dark uniform and the very light background immediately calls attention to her tits. It's almost like black and white are the first thing human eyes see (which is why that Tool song goes, "Black and white are all I see, red and yellow that came to be, reaching out to me, lets me see"). In the second image, Scarlett's arm is behind her boob, so there is no silhouette.


Now you're not even trying... The background around Scarlett's breasts isn't much different than her suit.

Ironically, both Cap and Hawkeye's crotch have much lighter backgrounds than Scarlett's breasts.


Also you're a weird human being if the first thing your eyes focus on are her breasts. Which are a very tiny part of the poster.
 
2012-12-11 03:06:15 PM  

Theaetetus: [i.imgur.com image 687x1044]
What if the male Avengers posed like the female one?


I'm fine with that, 'cept maybe for goatse Hulk
 
2012-12-11 03:11:28 PM  

give me doughnuts: dericwater: LectertheChef: Moto Corsa, a Ducati dealership, did it better, with their Manigale photos.

Fantastic! Guys cheated by wearing 2.5" or so heels while the singular female model was wearing 5"+ heels.


You try finding a pair of stilettos in a men's 12.5 EEE!


I live in SF. No problems finding a couple of those.
 
2012-12-11 03:13:02 PM  

rocky_howard: PsiChick: The problem is more than a bit less 'ZOMG COMICS MAKE PEOPLE LOOK SEXY THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!!11!!eleventy!' and more 'Um, why is it that the male body language is dominant and the female body language is so submissive I could have posted this on a BDSM site?'.

/Because really, I've seen women in less submissive positions on those sites while they were in the sub position for porn shoots.

Now this is an interesting position. Yeah, I can see why some of those would be seen as submissive. But are we going to have an standardized discussion? Because this is all over the place, as it is.

For example, look for Mega Steve post featuring two amazon-like women holding swords. Do you consider that to be submissive?


The one where they're very clearly not wearing bras, their clothes are half torn off, and they're doing that half-bow meant to show off ass and tits? That's submissive as hell--it's implying that the viewer gets to dominate these women who no one else can dominate. That's a lot of the 'token strong woman' stuff, too--instead of an actual human being, it's just a walking weapon the main character can 'tame'.

/If I weren't aromantic that would drive me up the wall, because lately that one gets defined as romantic love. As it is, I just said 'fark it, this book has no pairings' and made everyone siblings.
 
2012-12-11 03:16:54 PM  

rocky_howard: dukef: Here's a whole series of them courtesy of a photographer with a sense of humor.

That was a great link. This is an actually apt way of presenting the...I don't want to say issue, because is this even an issue? [...]


I think it is an issue, if you consider that we aren't talking just about comic books, but rather centuries old traditions of representation in both fine art and popular culture in which women are consistently represented either as 1) passive non-agents that exist primarily for the titillation of the male viewer or 2) burlesque, hyperbolic ball busting amazons that exist primarily for the titillation for the male viewer (particularly as the latter allows such a viewer to libidinize the idea of the powerful woman without actually submitting to any women in power). Yes there are important exceptions to this dichotomy (it doesn't by any means describe all images of women), and yes there are female viewers that get off on it too, but it is a powerful representational strain in our culture that helps craft very limiting and even devastating notions of femininity for us. 

/heh, I said "TITillate..."
 
2012-12-11 03:18:40 PM  

PsiChick: The one where they're very clearly not wearing bras, their clothes are half torn off, and they're doing that half-bow meant to show off ass and tits? That's submissive as hell--it's implying that the viewer gets to dominate these women who no one else can dominate. That's a lot of the 'token strong woman' stuff, too--instead of an actual human being, it's just a walking weapon the main character can 'tame'.

/If I weren't aromantic that would drive me up the wall, because lately that one gets defined as romantic love. As it is, I just said 'fark it, this book has no pairings' and made everyone siblings.


Um, I don't know which pic you looked at but they don't have "clothes half torn off". The "clearly not wearing bras" is not even a point, when you go to the beach, do you wear bras? No.

And I don't even know where you got the "the viewer gets to dominate these women no one else can dominate". That's just weak sauce. So every fictional dominant man is also made for the girls who gets to dominate these men no one else can dominate? Oh, that's the bad boy trope, right? Got it.
 
2012-12-11 03:24:21 PM  

rocky_howard: Also you're a weird human being male or bi/gay female if the first thing your eyes focus on are her breasts


FTFY.

Farkette here. I failed (I think it's a fail. . . ) the gay test. The first thing I saw on that poster was T&A.
 
2012-12-11 03:26:30 PM  

farkingnotworking: I think it is an issue, if you consider that we aren't talking just about comic books, but rather centuries old traditions of representation in both fine art and popular culture in which women are consistently represented either as 1) passive non-agents that exist primarily for the titillation of the male viewer or 2) burlesque, hyperbolic ball busting amazons that exist primarily for the titillation for the male viewer (particularly as the latter allows such a viewer to libidinize the idea of the powerful woman without actually submitting to any women in power). Yes there are important exceptions to this dichotomy (it doesn't by any means describe all images of women), and yes there are female viewers that get off on it too, but it is a powerful representational strain in our culture that helps craft very limiting and even devastating notions of femininity for us. 

/heh, I said "TITillate..."


But couldn't you say the opposite too? Especially in regards to masculinity? Personally I've even suffered (not emotionally, just y'know, that it has happened) from that when some people (mostly girls) have thought I was gay because some of my mannerisms or just because I behave and have different interests than what "real men" do.

Masculinity standard also exists and it affects many men too, so to paint it as a "female problem" is disingenuous. The thing is that, ironically, men get mocked/laughed upon if they even dare say anything.

Look at the whole weight issue. Making fun of the weight of a fat/overweight female is frowned upon. Fat men are still the heart of cheap comedy.

If an overweight woman shares her plight with trying to lose weight, she'll probably get support.
A man doing the same usually leads to derision and calls of "hti the gym, fattie!"

So it's not so clear and cut.
 
2012-12-11 03:26:46 PM  

rocky_howard


Also you're a weird human being if the first thing your eyes focus on are her breasts. Which are a very tiny part of the poster.


Meaning "hetero male who reads comic books".
 
2012-12-11 03:27:19 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: I wish they had done more than just one pose.


I was into laughing at Jim Hines doing weird cover poses before it was cool.

I like the addition of the costume, though.
 
2012-12-11 03:28:27 PM  

Peki: Farkette here. I failed (I think it's a fail. . . ) the gay test. The first thing I saw on that poster was T&A.


Around these parts we call that success.
 
2012-12-11 03:32:44 PM  

rocky_howard: Um, I don't know which pic you looked at but they don't have "clothes half torn off". The "clearly not wearing bras" is not even a point, when you go to the beach, do you wear bras? No.

And I don't even know where you got the "the viewer gets to dominate these women no one else can dominate". That's just weak sauce. So every fictional dominant man is also made for the girls who gets to dominate these men no one else can dominate? Oh, that's the bad boy trope, right? Got it.


Ah, I thought you were referring to a post a page ago that had what I was describing, since Google gave me nothing. Wondered why you used that example...But what I'm referring to is pretty standard for comics, and it's a great way of annoying the crap out of me.

What you're describing sounds like a totally normal pic, albeit one where the woman wears sexy clothing. In which case, meh, who cares? My problem is more that you get cases where you have, say, a superheroine who is doing just fine until a minor stumbling block...and suddenly the nerdy dweeb is saving her life despite there being no need and the superheroine 'settles down' with him. Or the kid who barely survives the zombie apocalypse falls in love with the badass ninja and the badass ninja suddenly reverses personality to justify falling in love back.

The bad boy trope...I think that's just the logical conclusion of idiots and gender roles. For a long time the gender role was that a woman 'civilized' the 'savage' man, and the 'savage' man ruled over her. Thus, we get idiot girls wanting to fark sparkly vampires.

/These are all sexually normative behaviors, even wanting to dominate a powerful woman\man. The problem is that no one farking displays any other type of behavior, which is obnoxious.
 
2012-12-11 03:38:13 PM  

Skirl Hutsenreiter: The My Little Pony Killer: I wish they had done more than just one pose.

I was into laughing at Jim Hines doing weird cover poses before it was cool.

I like the addition of the costume, though.


And there's more!
 
2012-12-11 03:45:34 PM  
Obligatory:

i470.photobucket.com
via Link
 
2012-12-11 03:48:10 PM  

Boojum2k: Peki: Farkette here. I failed (I think it's a fail. . . ) the gay test. The first thing I saw on that poster was T&A.

Around these parts we call that success.


Yeah, I could never be sure of that one. It's like the pencil test (for bras, not the thigh one). "Failing" can be a good thing.
 
2012-12-11 03:54:05 PM  

Peki: Boojum2k: Peki: Farkette here. I failed (I think it's a fail. . . ) the gay test. The first thing I saw on that poster was T&A.

Around these parts we call that success.

Yeah, I could never be sure of that one. It's like the pencil test (for bras, not the thigh one). "Failing" can be a good thing.


Have to love tests that, the more you study for, the more likely you will fail.

/But the homework rocks
 
2012-12-11 03:59:50 PM  
farm8.staticflickr.com
 
2012-12-11 04:01:55 PM  

penthesilea: Obligatory:

[i470.photobucket.com image 550x818]
via Link


So the female in the comic is a yaoi fan. You know, there's art out there for her, and she wouldn't like it if the guy got to change it to suit his tastes instead.
 
2012-12-11 04:06:51 PM  
I love this thread So Much! I have to have a supply of new keyboards for this one!
 
2012-12-11 04:18:26 PM  

penthesilea: Obligatory:

[i470.photobucket.com image 550x818]
via Link


I really don't buy that most women would find that new picture hotter.
 
2012-12-11 04:19:16 PM  

Boojum2k: penthesilea: Obligatory:

[i470.photobucket.com image 550x818]
via Link

So the female in the comic is a yaoi fan. You know, there's art out there for her, and she wouldn't like it if the guy got to change it to suit his tastes instead.


You know, your argument would sound better if you didn't say "female" and "guy."
 
2012-12-11 04:26:35 PM  
It's almost like the comic book target demographic is young men. Shocking.
 
2012-12-11 04:27:08 PM  

Dafatone: Boojum2k: penthesilea: Obligatory:

[i470.photobucket.com image 550x818]
via Link

So the female in the comic is a yaoi fan. You know, there's art out there for her, and she wouldn't like it if the guy got to change it to suit his tastes instead.

You know, your argument would sound better if you didn't say "female" and "guy."


I chose female because she's drawn like a teen, yet argues like a grown woman, and is only clearly "female." In fact, looking at the comic, the detail on her is so much more precise, she even has drawn in eyes, whereas the guy is a horrible caricature, specifically meant to dehumanize. He's a strawman of the artists imagination of a typical "guy."

And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.
 
2012-12-11 04:29:16 PM  

Mega Steve: Raw_fishFood: I just sorta wish comics in general were more anatomically correct. I mean, there are plenty of poses that make no sense for males or females that plague comics.

[25.media.tumblr.com image 454x695]

You mean women don't bend this way? Damn you, Liefeld!


OK if they ever make a third list that one goes in there. It's painfully obvious Rob drew sword first then realized he needed to have that second boob fully visible and drew it over the blade. God he's terrible.
 
2012-12-11 04:29:34 PM  

Boojum2k: And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.


It doesn't matter what Batman look like. He's a billionaire.
 
2012-12-11 04:31:06 PM  

HailRobonia: Boojum2k: And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.

It doesn't matter what Batman look like. He's a billionaire.


You win!
 
2012-12-11 04:33:52 PM  

averagejoe42: http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/

Try not to laugh soda out your nose.


That's beautiful.

Isn't the batman/catwoman a modern take on the old Aztec Warrior with Fallen Maiden motif, where a woman's genital area is more important than her face?

media.tumblr.com
 
2012-12-11 04:37:38 PM  

Mike Chewbacca: It's almost like black and white are the first thing human eyes see (which is why that Tool song goes, "Black and white are all I see, red and yellow that came to be, reaching out to me, lets me see").


Bullshiat. Maynard says it was based on aboriginal creation stories
 
2012-12-11 04:38:38 PM  

ExperianScaresCthulhu: averagejoe42: http://thehawkeyeinitiative.com/

Try not to laugh soda out your nose.

That's beautiful.

Isn't the batman/catwoman a modern take on the old Aztec Warrior with Fallen Maiden motif, where a woman's genital area is more important than her face?

[media.tumblr.com image 420x635]


Is that where those stink lines are coming from?
 
2012-12-11 04:44:06 PM  

umad: Mike Chewbacca: It's almost like black and white are the first thing human eyes see (which is why that Tool song goes, "Black and white are all I see, red and yellow that came to be, reaching out to me, lets me see").

Bullshiat. Maynard says it was based on aboriginal creation stories


Hunh. High school me would have known that (because you can't love a band in high school and not learn everything about them). Still, babies at first only see contrasts of white and black, and then the next colors they can see are red and yellow.
 
2012-12-11 04:45:28 PM  

HailRobonia: Boojum2k: And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.

It doesn't matter what Batman look like. He's a billionaire.


Totally true.

www.nndb.com
 
2012-12-11 04:59:23 PM  

browntimmy: I really don't buy that most women would find that new picture hotter.


Spend some time on tumblr. So many drawings/photos of sensitive, bendy, & beautiful guys.
 
2012-12-11 05:07:48 PM  
http://www.filmsforaction.org/watch/the_codes_of_gender_2009/
 
2012-12-11 05:37:05 PM  
Less whining, more Nightwing ass.

www.fanboysoftheuniverse.com
 
2012-12-11 06:01:22 PM  

Theaetetus: Ambivalence: Theaetetus: [cdn.mommyish.com image 332x1024]
Male superheroes posed like Wonder Woman.

The shape of a man's pelvis is such that they are physically incapable of tilting it in that fashion. Which may explain why men find it so alluring in women.

[25.media.tumblr.com image 458x700]
The shape of a woman's pelvis is such that they're also physically incapable of tilting it in that fashion... Have you never actually seen a woman?


Obviously you aren't a fan of shibari.
 
2012-12-11 06:19:04 PM  

Boojum2k: Dafatone: Boojum2k: penthesilea: Obligatory:

[i470.photobucket.com image 550x818]
via Link

So the female in the comic is a yaoi fan. You know, there's art out there for her, and she wouldn't like it if the guy got to change it to suit his tastes instead.

You know, your argument would sound better if you didn't say "female" and "guy."

I chose female because she's drawn like a teen, yet argues like a grown woman, and is only clearly "female." In fact, looking at the comic, the detail on her is so much more precise, she even has drawn in eyes, whereas the guy is a horrible caricature, specifically meant to dehumanize. He's a strawman of the artists imagination of a typical "guy."

And as noted, it's very unlikely most women would find that version of Batman more attractive.


If I find clever women with glasses and clipboards attractive, does that mean that comic is a sexual objectification of women?

/So, about this "false equivalence" thing...
 
2012-12-11 06:37:28 PM  
Surely this original and never-before-seen commentary has finally exposed the heretofore-unseen sexism within the world of comic book art, and the public will forevermore demand equal sexual objectification for all characters, male and female, found within the pages of this most widely consumed of all visual media.

And thus the world was saved.

Amen.
 
2012-12-11 06:39:42 PM  

LectertheChef: Moto Corsa, a Ducati dealership, did it better, with their Manigale photos.


I was looking for that earlier. Glad you found it.

/I can never see those guys the same again
//especially Todd
 
2012-12-11 06:43:31 PM  

dericwater: LectertheChef: Moto Corsa, a Ducati dealership, did it better, with their Manigale photos.

Fantastic! Guys cheated by wearing 2.5" or so heels while the singular female model was wearing 5"+ heels.


I would laugh my ass off seeing AJ try standing in 5" heels.
 
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