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(Talking Points Memo)   Mich. Democrats: If you pass this, you will not reason with us, you cannot control us. There shall be chaos in the streets. Cats and dogs living together. Muslims and Jews breaking bread. Chaos, utter chaos   (tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 526
    More: Amusing, Democrats, John Dingell, Muslims and Jews, Michigan Republicans, union shops  
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5006 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Dec 2012 at 11:31 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-11 06:40:53 PM  

DeathByGeekSquad: So, if you look at the information I quoted earlier from the CNN article - how is this bad for Michigan? It's an honest question. They've been losing workers to Chicago-area employers for a long time now, hell, a LOT of the people I meet are Michigan transplants. It would -seem- that the statistics support RTW bringing back jobs to the state.


Doesn't really work that way. Right to work states tend to have lower incomes and fewer high-wage jobs. The skilled and mobile labor leaves over time to where they can obtain better wages.

I mean, you could make the argument that lots of low-paying and unskilled jobs are a good thing, but I would tend not to agree.
 
2012-12-11 06:41:11 PM  
Will this law effect the shining beacon of industry that is Detroit?
 
2012-12-11 06:41:40 PM  

Leeds: firefly212: jehovahs witness protection: Democrats: People don't deserve the right to choose!

Show me the person who got forced to join a union... oh, that's right... you can't.

Is this your way of admitting that you are posting in a thread without reading the previous comments, or did you just take existentialism 101 and now you want to debate if I can prove my own existance?

Either way I think you're out of line.


I love watching people out their own alts.
 
2012-12-11 06:42:02 PM  

jst3p: KellyX: jst3p: slayer199: So much for peaceful protesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_F3oev06i0&feature=player_embedded

I predict this will be looked upon favorably by fark libs and assailed by fark conservatives.

Wow, that was uncalled for.

Wow, that guy was trying to force a confrontation to try to make a GOTCHA video huh?

Yeah, and tubby fell for it.


Much like if you fark with enough people one of them will get in your face about it.
 
2012-12-11 06:43:38 PM  

qorkfiend: slayer199: It's done. Snyder signed the legislation.

Now the lawyers get involved.


And unless it gets to the U.S. Supreme Court (which it won't) it will stand. The GOP also has a majority in the State Supreme Court (next 2 years as well).
 
2012-12-11 06:46:35 PM  
They've at least learned to omit cops and firefighters... for now.
 
2012-12-11 06:46:58 PM  

KellyX: In the State of Florida, we can fire you for no reason given, we don't need to give you notice (but you sure as shiat better give your boss 2 weeks notice or expect to be on a blacklist!!)


That's life dude as I also work in an at-will state. I've been laid off 4 times since 2000 (part of being a contractor). Never out of work more than a month each time (and I've only taken 2 weeks of unemployment out of those 4 months). The only thing that keeps me employable are my skills, reputation, and network.
 
2012-12-11 06:49:06 PM  

slayer199: KellyX: In the State of Florida, we can fire you for no reason given, we don't need to give you notice (but you sure as shiat better give your boss 2 weeks notice or expect to be on a blacklist!!)

That's life dude as I also work in an at-will state. I've been laid off 4 times since 2000 (part of being a contractor). Never out of work more than a month each time (and I've only taken 2 weeks of unemployment out of those 4 months). The only thing that keeps me employable are my skills, reputation, and network.


oh I know, have to deal, just letting those that are having it pushed on them thru shady backdoor means what to expect... RTW doesn't mean "union can't force you to join"
 
2012-12-11 06:55:53 PM  

Cyclometh: I'll just leave this here.

[yafh.com image 565x717]


Cant be a coincidence that CT has roughly double the cost of living of Alabama, does it?

pornopose: I have yet to run across a company that actually cares about their workers other than very very small operations with personal relationships between management and the workers


I've worked for companies that "care" and some that dont. I go to work every day to exchange my labor for money which then affords me a quality of life that I desire. I could give a rat's ass if some wonk in upper management has a hard-on for me because ultimately, the company exists to provide value to the shareholders, make money and serve customers. I've found that if I want more money, I need to gain more skills which I can then use in the marketplace to bargain for a better wage. I earned a promotion a month ago which came on the heels of 7 months of successfully managing a project. The company that I work for is merging with another company in the 2nd half of next year. Some of us are uncertain about our jobs but others, like myself are taking on additional skills and certifications to make ourselves marketable. if I worked in a Union shop, I'd surely be out the door as I'm the youngest of the bunch

in a union shop, i would be told what sort of project I'd be running, if anything
In a union shop, I'd be paid based on how long I'd been on the floor, regardless of my performance
in a union shop, if management had to make cutbacks, they'd consult the Union, who would turn in a list of names which is likely based on factors completely unrelated to work performance.

In other words, if "Management" decides to "Dick me over" and cut me loose, that is fine. There's jobs in the market for me and I retain the right in a free country to take up the offers that roll in to me. Aside from that, i have confidence in my work ability that should something ever happen, i'd be kept or that I could find work easily.
 
2012-12-11 06:56:28 PM  

KellyX: oh I know, have to deal, just letting those that are having it pushed on them thru shady backdoor means what to expect... RTW doesn't mean "union can't force you to join"


The one thing that has always annoyed me about contract work is the 2 week thing not cutting both ways. I've told my employers before that if they ever have to cut, to give me a month and I wouldn't slack off (because I do care about my reputation in the field). Only once has an employer given me a month's notice that I would not be renewed....and it was much appreciated. I completed my projects, documented everything I needed to document, and started a new job the following Monday.
 
2012-12-11 06:56:58 PM  

Magorn: Why do you assume we are? Look around your cube farm. You may have a degree hanging on your "wall" but to the people at the top of your org, you are just as faceless and interchangeable as the factory worker. In your case it will be somebody from India with an H-1B visa rather than a machine, but I assure you, if there is a way they can get your job done cheaper, even if not as well, they are already working on it. Hell, I'm a lawyer, and I've even seen attempts (largely disastrous thank god) to Ship MY kind of Job to india where they can get an English-speaking "Lawyer" to work for $5/hr instead of (under) paying a New lawyer in the US $35/hr to do the same work (lowest rung of the legal ladder to be sure, but still something that requires a law degree, which in the US is a $100,000 investment)

Look at the mass layoffs Citigroup and Dell did recently. Do you suppose they individually evaluated all 11,000 people they fired and dropped the chaff and kept the good ones? Or do you think somebody drew a line on a salary chart and said "everybody making more than X doing job Y goes"?


I used to work for a subsidiary of a large cell phone corporation.
We programmed cell phone interfaces and technical support software with a 10 year history.
I got on with a six-month internship, and after three months of working my ass off, got hired full time permanently.
Main corp got a new VP who took one look at a balance sheet and decided he could get it done cheaper in a faraway land. There was no negotiation. No back and forth.
Our boss got a phone call, walked in, and told us we were shut down. I was in the middle of drinking coffee. I left my lunch in the company fridge. We were out and gone. A few were retained as contractors (no benefits) to finish up the projects we were working on.
I'm told it was temporarily outsourced to Hungary. I'm told it didn't work out so well.
Seven months later, they're trying to get the whole thing started again. I was called back to see if I wanted a job as a contractor (no benefits). I am telecommuting part time. They've hired a bunch of interns for near minimum wage to pick up the rest of the pieces.

Sad. The interns used to start at $15, and full time was $18-21 right off the bat. Good bennies, too. 10 years of good performance. One VP thinks he can save a dime? Gone. Instantly. Save your work, pack up your shiat, turn in your security card on the way out.
It'll take more people experiencing exactly how corporate America treats its workers if it's ever going to change.
 
2012-12-11 07:10:44 PM  

Cyclometh: DeathByGeekSquad: So, if you look at the information I quoted earlier from the CNN article - how is this bad for Michigan? It's an honest question. They've been losing workers to Chicago-area employers for a long time now, hell, a LOT of the people I meet are Michigan transplants. It would -seem- that the statistics support RTW bringing back jobs to the state.

Doesn't really work that way. Right to work states tend to have lower incomes and fewer high-wage jobs. The skilled and mobile labor leaves over time to where they can obtain better wages.

I mean, you could make the argument that lots of low-paying and unskilled jobs are a good thing, but I would tend not to agree.


To clarify - are you suggesting that it will decrease the overall job market in MI?
 
2012-12-11 07:13:04 PM  

DeathByGeekSquad: Cythraul: Can someone post a graph that shows the economic prosperity state-by-state in regards as to which states have what in the ways of labor laws?

I'm willing to bet the right-to-work states are the poorest.

There was another article floating around on CNN's website:

The average full-time, full-year worker in a right-to-work state makes about $1,500 less annually, according to the Economic Policy Institute, a left-leaning organization. The rate of workers covered by employer-sponsored health insurance is 2.6 percentage points lower, while pension coverage is 4.8 percentage points lower.

Right-to-work states have done better in terms of growing jobs, according to State Budget Solutions, an advocacy group that supported the measure. Right-to-work states saw employment expand by 8.2% between 2001 and 2010, while those without the law experienced a 0.5% decrease, according to the group's analysis of Bureau of Labor Statistics figures.


They've done better in replacing living-wage jobs with minimum-wage mcjobs without any benefits.

Everywhere rtw has become law, wages have gone down, poverty has gone up, and work-related injuries and deaths have increased.
 
2012-12-11 07:17:22 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: Sad. The interns used to start at $15, and full time was $18-21 right off the bat. Good bennies, too. 10 years of good performance. One VP thinks he can save a dime? Gone. Instantly. Save your work, pack up your shiat, turn in your security card on the way out.
It'll take more people experiencing exactly how corporate America treats its workers if it's ever going to change.


This is pretty common when the beancounters get control. They only look at the bottom line. Then reality sets in when they found out that local people (while more expensive) give a damn, deliver on time, and provide the work of 2 or 3 cheap contractors.

Most every place I worked that outsourced (or nearsourced), has brought the jobs back within 2 years or lost clients.
 
2012-12-11 07:19:11 PM  
Is it just me, or does Governor Snyder sound exactly like Ray Zalinsky, the auto parts king?
 
2012-12-11 07:28:39 PM  

o5iiawah: Cant be a coincidence that CT has roughly double the cost of living of Alabama, does it?


Hm, I wonder what factors could influence a higher cost of living.
 
2012-12-11 07:30:07 PM  

DeathByGeekSquad: To clarify - are you suggesting that it will decrease the overall job market in MI?


You'll need to define the phrase "overall job market". If you tell me that you'll lose a thousand skilled manufacturing jobs and replace them with ten thousand retail jobs at big box stores, I'd call that a net loss.
 
2012-12-11 07:57:24 PM  
I worked for a union shop in Kansas (right to work) and it was a mess. The people that did payroll hated the right to work thing because they had to keep track of who to take union dues out and who not to. The part that really pissed the union people off is the non members did absolutely nothing to stand up for themselves and not even paying dues, if there was a grievance, the union had to fight for them. As far as I'm concerned, these people are parasites. Cry when they have trouble, screw their fellow worker.
 
2012-12-11 08:10:32 PM  
Hope you like those $9-an-hour jobs at Wal-Mart you dumb motherf*ckers who vote Republican.
 
2012-12-11 08:23:51 PM  

Bigdogdaddy: The people that did payroll hated the right to work thing because they had to keep track of who to take union dues out and who not to.


this was a big problem?
 
2012-12-11 08:43:20 PM  

slayer199: This past weekend, I pulled a number of stats off the bls.gov website. The stats are not conclusive either way...though people will spin the stats in favor of their position. My conclusion is that it won't be the panacea for Michigan's economy that the GOP thinks it will be, nor will it be the end of western civilization that the unions/Democrats think it will be. Time will tell.


It's be a wash economically (anyone who thinks that RTW will start to magically bring jobs to MI is a gullible idiot). As I said before, you have tons of non-RTW states that have lower unemployment rates than RTW states and you also have vice versa. You can't establish a trend either way.

The only trend you can establish is that implementing RTW will mean lower wages overall. Whether or not lower wages=job growth is up for debate.

The big winners in this whole thing will be the GOP and their donors and that's all that matters to the people drafting this law.
 
2012-12-11 08:44:25 PM  

o5iiawah: people would voluntarily give to their unions if they felt they got value from them


o5iiawah: /knowyourgametheory


Physician, heal thyself.
 
2012-12-11 08:45:21 PM  

Cyclometh: You'll need to define the phrase "overall job market". If you tell me that you'll lose a thousand skilled manufacturing jobs and replace them with ten thousand retail jobs at big box stores, I'd call that a net loss.


Logically that statement makes no sense.

Those big box stores are already in Michigan and those manufacturing jobs have left Michigan in droves (mostly to the south).
 
2012-12-11 08:47:35 PM  

Cyclometh: DeathByGeekSquad: To clarify - are you suggesting that it will decrease the overall job market in MI?

You'll need to define the phrase "overall job market". If you tell me that you'll lose a thousand skilled manufacturing jobs and replace them with ten thousand retail jobs at big box stores, I'd call that a net loss.


If you're already losing those jobs, and you're gaining jobs for a greater majority of the working population (assuming you're suggesting that all union workers are skilled manufacturing jobs - representing 17% of the MI workforce), I would call it a wash. Clinging to a dying local industry (Auto Work), to me, isn't as important as keeping your overall (majority) population employed.
 
2012-12-11 08:55:53 PM  

KellyX: jst3p: slayer199: So much for peaceful protesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_F3oev06i0&feature=player_embedded

I predict this will be looked upon favorably by fark libs and assailed by fark conservatives.

Wow, that was uncalled for.

Wow, that guy was trying to force a confrontation to try to make a GOTCHA video huh?


The party of peace and tolerance strikes again!
 
2012-12-11 08:58:04 PM  

Leeds: firefly212: jehovahs witness protection: Democrats: People don't deserve the right to choose!

Show me the person who got forced to join a union... oh, that's right... you can't.

Is this your way of admitting that you are posting in a thread without reading the previous comments, or did you just take existentialism 101 and now you want to debate if I can prove my own existance?

Either way I think you're out of line.


lol, out of line... on fark... c'mon man, it isn't your first day.

I want to debate why this bill doesn't do any of the things the people pushing for it say it does... I want to talk about the make-believe problems that this bill fixes by causing many very real problems... I want to talk about how "right to work" replaces good jobs with McJobs. I want to talk about how we demonize the working poor while passing laws like this, that create ever growing ranks of people who work 40+ hours a week yet can't afford a home, healthcare, and food.

/was never in the line.
 
2012-12-11 08:58:36 PM  

DeathByGeekSquad: If you're already losing those jobs, and you're gaining jobs for a greater majority of the working population (assuming you're suggesting that all union workers are skilled manufacturing jobs - representing 17% of the MI workforce), I would call it a wash. Clinging to a dying local industry (Auto Work), to me, isn't as important as keeping your overall (majority) population employed.


The biggest problem MI has had is clinging onto manufacturing and not having a Plan B in place.

They seem to be finally catching on and diversifying their economy some more outside of manufacturing. But that's the real reason. No way were they going to compete with places in Asia where they can pay workers pennies to the dollar to do the same work that workers here get paid $14/hours plus benefits for.
 
2012-12-11 09:02:36 PM  

Trollomite: skin in


QFT
 
2012-12-11 09:05:36 PM  

Il Douchey: Michigan isn't prohibiting unions, it's just allowing workers to decide if they want to belong to them. Of course unions want the power to compel membership, it's so much easier than having to persuade people that voluntarily joining is in their best interest.

/Don't just demand union allegiance, earn it. -Good luck with that


Well, if you don't want to be a member of the teacher's union, you are free to remain on your own. You still have to pay, but a reduced fee. The thing is, if some student just decides they don't like you and say that you touched them inappropriately (or any other number of very regular allegations that get brought against teachers), good luck paying for that lawyer on a teacher's pay. So, no... you are not required to join them... you're just an idiot if you don't. It's nice to have a contract and have some form of job security that is at least on par with someone at Burger King.
 
2012-12-11 09:07:26 PM  

udhq: Il Douchey: Michigan isn't prohibiting unions, it's just allowing workers to decide if they want to belong to them. Of course unions want the power to compel membership, it's so much easier than having to persuade people that voluntarily joining is in their best interest.

/Don't just demand union allegiance, earn it. -Good luck with that

No, that's not what rtw does. It mandates that unions have to offer their collective bargaining services free of charge.

It such a law were targeting any other group, we'd call it what its really is: government mandated slavery.


Oh... and this too. Even if you don't actually join the teacher's union, you still get the benefit of their collective bargaining. Which you're farking lucky for.
 
2012-12-11 09:10:27 PM  

jehovahs witness protection: Democrats: People don't deserve the right to choose!


Let's see:

Employer does something douchebaggy, conservatives say "if you don't like it, work somewhere else."

Unions get a foothold in a company and require dues, conservatives say "waaahhh, liberals are taking away choices."
 
2012-12-11 09:13:20 PM  
Why are Democrats so pro-choice on one issue but not another?
 
2012-12-11 09:18:57 PM  
I was in Lansing for about 6 1/2 hours today. Very peaceful overall. I didn't see the guy in the video get attacked (the tent they tore down was from Americans for Prosperity). The first thing I noticed about the video was all of the extreme cuts. Obviously the union guy shouldn't have punched the guy, but with all the cuts, who knows how he was provoking them. Plus, they were estimating yesterday that there would be 10,000-15,000 people at the capital. And yet the AFP people had to be there to do a little victory dance? I'm amazed that it wasn't worse. We're talking about these people's livelihood. Their ability to provide for their families. I'm surprised worse didn't happen.

15,000 people there, and only 2 threw punches. Yeah, union thugs, I know.

There's also a lot of misinformation on here about what Right to Work means (at least in Michigan). Here's why union members are angry:

1. If you don't want to belong to a union, you don't have to, but you still get all of the benefits. You get the wages negotiated, the benefits, the protections, and the representation.

2. You are not allowed to negotiate your own contract.

3. No matter how great the union may be, you're always going to have greedy farkers who don't pay dues but get all the good things.

4. Reduced dues means reduced political power.

5. If Right to Work is really so great for workers, why didn't they include firefighters and police?

6. Without Right to Work, you still were not forced to belong to the union. But you did have to pay an administrative fee, to cover the services that were provided to you. If you still didn't want to pay, work somewhere else. One good comparison I heard was to a neighborhood with a Homeowners Association. If you don't want to pay them, don't live in that neighborhood. The other was with Sams Club/Costco/Etc. places that require you to buy a membership. If you don't want to do that, shop somewhere else.

7. The whole thing was rushed through way too quickly. After 2 1/2 years of saying he had no interest in Right to Work, Snyder all of a sudden says he would support it. Many of the people here who voted no on Proposal 2 (which would've enshrined collective bargaining in the constitution) did so because they didn't want to change the constitution, NOT because they're Anti-union.

8. It's attached to a spending bill, which means a vote by the public cannot overturn it. It's one of the quirks of the Michigan system. The only way to overturn it would be with more legislation (unlikely, since even though the Democrats are gaining more seats on Jan 1, they're still the minority) or with a constitutional amendment. The last one failed, but this one might work, if it's worded specifically.

This pretty much guarantees that Snyder will be a one term governor. But, as a millionaire, he doesn't really need the job anyway. I personally think that he was promised a national position at some point within the next four years. As the governor who finally brought Right to Work to the heart of the unions, he'll be a darling of the GOP. He's not charismatic enough to be their candidate in 2016, but I could see him as a veep or cabinet member.
 
2012-12-11 09:24:54 PM  

HarleyMarlboro: I was in Lansing for about 6 1/2 hours today. Very peaceful overall. I didn't see the guy in the video get attacked (the tent they tore down was from Americans for Prosperity). The first thing I noticed about the video was all of the extreme cuts. Obviously the union guy shouldn't have punched the guy, but with all the cuts, who knows how he was provoking them. Plus, they were estimating yesterday that there would be 10,000-15,000 people at the capital. And yet the AFP people had to be there to do a little victory dance? I'm amazed that it wasn't worse. We're talking about these people's livelihood. Their ability to provide for their families. I'm surprised worse didn't happen.

15,000 people there, and only 2 threw punches. Yeah, union thugs, I know.

There's also a lot of misinformation on here about what Right to Work means (at least in Michigan). Here's why union members are angry:

1. If you don't want to belong to a union, you don't have to, but you still get all of the benefits. You get the wages negotiated, the benefits, the protections, and the representation.

2. You are not allowed to negotiate your own contract.

3. No matter how great the union may be, you're always going to have greedy farkers who don't pay dues but get all the good things.

4. Reduced dues means reduced political power.

5. If Right to Work is really so great for workers, why didn't they include firefighters and police?

6. Without Right to Work, you still were not forced to belong to the union. But you did have to pay an administrative fee, to cover the services that were provided to you. If you still didn't want to pay, work somewhere else. One good comparison I heard was to a neighborhood with a Homeowners Association. If you don't want to pay them, don't live in that neighborhood. The other was with Sams Club/Costco/Etc. places that require you to buy a membership. If you don't want to do that, shop somewhere else.

7. The whole thing was rushed through way too ...


Well said. And nice emphasis on the freeloader aspect of this law which RTW supporters keep furiously trying to sweep under the rug. 

That and Snyder basically put his reelection bid in jeopardy. He was touting himself as a moderate prior to this and in one swoop destroyed all of his credibility.
 
2012-12-11 09:32:07 PM  

slayer199: This is pretty common when the beancounters get control. They only look at the bottom line. Then reality sets in when they found out that local people (while more expensive) give a damn, deliver on time, and provide the work of 2 or 3 cheap contractors.

Most every place I worked that outsourced (or nearsourced), has brought the jobs back within 2 years or lost clients.


When the jobs come back, are they the good $18-$21 with full benefits or the minimum wage part-time interns?
Because if they're expecting the same quality and people who give a damn as before, they're not going to get it from the interns. They're pretty much guaranteed quick turnover and sloppy work, whereas before they had programmers who'd worked on cell phones since they could fit in your pocket.
 
2012-12-11 09:32:21 PM  

o5iiawah: Cyclometh: I'll just leave this here.

[yafh.com image 565x717]

Cant be a coincidence that CT has roughly double the cost of living of Alabama, does it?

pornopose: I have yet to run across a company that actually cares about their workers other than very very small operations with personal relationships between management and the workers

I've worked for companies that "care" and some that dont. I go to work every day to exchange my labor for money which then affords me a quality of life that I desire. I could give a rat's ass if some wonk in upper management has a hard-on for me because ultimately, the company exists to provide value to the shareholders, make money and serve customers. I've found that if I want more money, I need to gain more skills which I can then use in the marketplace to bargain for a better wage. I earned a promotion a month ago which came on the heels of 7 months of successfully managing a project. The company that I work for is merging with another company in the 2nd half of next year. Some of us are uncertain about our jobs but others, like myself are taking on additional skills and certifications to make ourselves marketable. if I worked in a Union shop, I'd surely be out the door as I'm the youngest of the bunch

in a union shop, i would be told what sort of project I'd be running, if anything
In a union shop, I'd be paid based on how long I'd been on the floor, regardless of my performance
in a union shop, if management had to make cutbacks, they'd consult the Union, who would turn in a list of names which is likely based on factors completely unrelated to work performance.

In other words, if "Management" decides to "Dick me over" and cut me loose, that is fine. There's jobs in the market for me and I retain the right in a free country to take up the offers that roll in to me. Aside from that, i have confidence in my work ability that should something ever happen, i'd be kept or that I could find work easily.


You have a real good point about the seniority bias. That's my biggest gripe about unions. There are some very entitled union workers that give everyone a bad name and foster a lazy culture.
 
2012-12-11 09:33:16 PM  

Mrtraveler01: DeathByGeekSquad: If you're already losing those jobs, and you're gaining jobs for a greater majority of the working population (assuming you're suggesting that all union workers are skilled manufacturing jobs - representing 17% of the MI workforce), I would call it a wash. Clinging to a dying local industry (Auto Work), to me, isn't as important as keeping your overall (majority) population employed.

The biggest problem MI has had is clinging onto manufacturing and not having a Plan B in place.

They seem to be finally catching on and diversifying their economy some more outside of manufacturing. But that's the real reason. No way were they going to compete with places in Asia where they can pay workers pennies to the dollar to do the same work that workers here get paid $14/hours plus benefits for.


The biggest problem is that we put our labor force in direct competition with Chinese laborers who have nearly no protections at all and work in slave-camp like conditions... the rest just kind of stems from that.

Diversification won't help, all the jobs that are left will still be in wage-competition with lao-gais and "factories" like FoxConn... the only way our labor prices could be competitive is if we went back to the policies of the late 1920s, and that didn't really pan out so well the last time we were there.

The only two things that are fixing this are 1)Chinese wage inflation (mitigated by unfair currency trade) and 2)ridiculous inflation in trans-pacific shipping prices and times... Companies are finding out that they can save a few bucks per FEU, but they have to place orders with chinese manufacturers several months in advance, leaving them unable to react quickly and capitalize on unexpected favorable market conditions for their individual products.
 
2012-12-11 09:35:47 PM  

Skid Roe v. Wade Boggs: From a Republican State Rep...

[i260.photobucket.com image 386x133]


Well, he betrayed his commitment to democracy, I hope he enjoys hell when he goes there.
 
2012-12-11 10:13:57 PM  

Leeds: Serious Post on Serious Thread: Leeds: Bloody William: Why is this called "right-to-work?" It sounds like the sickest twisting of words considering what it does.

No, that's the literal interpretation.

Way back when, if you sought a job and the company offered it to you and you accepted it, you had that job. Then a few decades ago unions granted themselves the ability to keep you from your job if you refused to pay them money (to join their ranks). You literally could be offered a job, accept that job, then be barred from working at your job because some union somewhere needed you to pay them for the privilege of working at a job you already have.

Right to work legislation makes it illegal for an outside group to block you from working if you and your employer have come to an employment agreement.

And why, do you suppose, that the job the person was applying for had its higher salary, and guaranteed benefits, and recourse for employer abuse that drew said employee to the job in the first place?

Unless you are ok with the whole free-riding thing, where everyone else gets to sacrifice, potentially even strike, to ensure the benefits they earned inure to you.

Why do you propose that the contract I hammer out with my employer has anything to do with the one you hammered out with (in this example) the same employer???

Explain how you could make such an unfounded logical leap.


The farktarded illogical leep here is that you think employee/employer negotiations exist in some type of hermetically sealed magic pink bubble of a perfect market. I don't even wanna waste the typing, but jeebus; practically: a factory w/ 1000 workers could not in any efficient way from either side of the table negotiate individual contracts. Second are you really that stupid?? Collective bargaining is only useful if it is done COLLECTIVELY. Economies of scale for farks sake, how do they work? Why can't you get as good a price on one pair of sneakers from a chinese factory as wal mart does on 10.000 pairs? No one is this stupid, no one.
 
2012-12-11 10:15:55 PM  

beta_plus: zappaisfrank: beta_plus: udhq: beta_plus: trotsky: udhq: beta_plus: IT PASSED!!!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ! !

SWEET DELICIOUS TEARS OF IMPOTENT LIBERAL RAGE!!!!!! THEY FEED ME!

Once again, this is why the GOP may never win another national election; you're willing to gut the middle class simply out of partisan spite. You'll cut the baby in half if it means sticking to the black guy.

What an ugly, disgusting little person you are.

I love how he, once more, treats it like his team is winning. This is why most "conservatives" are ridiculed outside their own little bubble. They come across as know-nothing little play ground bullies who run to nanny government the minute their bootstraps break.

Small Government Conservationism, what's that?


/Goldwater rolls in his grave.

You lost. Get over it. It's time to move on.

You don't understand. To you, this is a game, but to millions of union workers, this a matter of whether they can afford to send their children to college.

The middle class is not ever going to "move on" and resign itself to a life of working poverty. This is like Vietnam; its picking a fight with an enemy who literally cannot afford to lose.

My, my, what violent rhetoric you have. It's too bad that liberals are now the party of hate and violence with no respect for Democracy.

Your concerned poutrage is noted.

What happened in Michigan with this has nothing to do with Democracy, so your point is invalid.

You are free to keep stroking yourself thinking you scored some big victory here when the reality is you're pretending table scraps are Filet Mignon. Obama is going to take the oath again on January 20th. A piddly RTW bill that will end up in court and sit idle for a good long while and most likely be overturned is pretty small potatoes in the bigger scheme of things.

"this has nothing to do with Democracy" Really? The State Legislature of Michigan is a dictatorship?

/HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA ...


The Messiah takes the oath January 20th..four more years, biatch.
 
2012-12-11 10:18:23 PM  

Sergeant Grumbles: When the jobs come back, are they the good $18-$21 with full benefits or the minimum wage part-time interns?
Because if they're expecting the same quality and people who give a damn as before, they're not going to get it from the interns. They're pretty much guaranteed quick turnover and sloppy work, whereas before they had programmers who'd worked on cell phones since they could fit in your pocket.


At least in my area, they're paying the same as they were before...good jobs, decent pay, full benefits. Most companies have figured it out...some don't because they only care about the bottom line...not customer service. Only when they lose customers (in the case of IT service providers) or production applications crash do the beancounters get a clue.

I try not to worry about the business side of things too much because I can't control it. What I can control, is looking for another job when a position becomes unstable.
 
2012-12-11 10:19:57 PM  

o5iiawah: Cythraul: I'm willing to bet the right-to-work states are the poorest.

I'd be willing to be the RTW states have the lowest costs of living and better quality of life. Your typical $90k/yr Union laborer job in NY gets you a crappy apartment in queens.

The equivalent $50k in Florida, GA or SC affords one home ownership, savings and time for leisure. It costs $36 just to make a round trip across the GW.

Serious Post on Serious Thread: Unless you are ok with the whole free-riding thing, where everyone else gets to sacrifice, potentially even strike, to ensure the benefits they earned inure to you.

The NRA and ACLU will willingly fight for the rights of all citizens whether or not they are duespayers so the "Free-rider" whargarbl is a myth.
The reason taxes are withheld is because people would be outraged at getting straight cash from one pay window, then going to the local, state, federal and SS windows to fork over the cash that was just in their hand. The unions know this and that is why they are demanding dues be paid before the worker even sees them.


So you openly admit that unions provide a collective good for all of society, primarily funded by their most direct beneficiaries, their members, much the same as the ACLU and the NRA (*cough* laugh *cough*) provide a benefit for all of society off the backs of their members. Though the free riding in unions is an internal, insulated and unmitigatble cost as opposed to the ACLU/NRA external, open and distributed costs.

Your online University wants your GED in Economics back.
 
2012-12-11 10:24:01 PM  

zappaisfrank: beta_plus: zappaisfrank: beta_plus: udhq: beta_plus: trotsky: udhq: beta_plus: IT PASSED!!!!


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! ! !

SWEET DELICIOUS TEARS OF IMPOTENT LIBERAL RAGE!!!!!! THEY FEED ME!

Once again, this is why the GOP may never win another national election; you're willing to gut the middle class simply out of partisan spite. You'll cut the baby in half if it means sticking to the black guy.

What an ugly, disgusting little person you are.

I love how he, once more, treats it like his team is winning. This is why most "conservatives" are ridiculed outside their own little bubble. They come across as know-nothing little play ground bullies who run to nanny government the minute their bootstraps break.

Small Government Conservationism, what's that?


/Goldwater rolls in his grave.

You lost. Get over it. It's time to move on.

You don't understand. To you, this is a game, but to millions of union workers, this a matter of whether they can afford to send their children to college.

The middle class is not ever going to "move on" and resign itself to a life of working poverty. This is like Vietnam; its picking a fight with an enemy who literally cannot afford to lose.

My, my, what violent rhetoric you have. It's too bad that liberals are now the party of hate and violence with no respect for Democracy.

Your concerned poutrage is noted.

What happened in Michigan with this has nothing to do with Democracy, so your point is invalid.

You are free to keep stroking yourself thinking you scored some big victory here when the reality is you're pretending table scraps are Filet Mignon. Obama is going to take the oath again on January 20th. A piddly RTW bill that will end up in court and sit idle for a good long while and most likely be overturned is pretty small potatoes in the bigger scheme of things.

"this has nothing to do with Democracy" Really? The State Legislature of Michigan is a dictatorship?

/HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH ...


Yep! 1000 years of darkness you miserable right wing twat! Better bend over, spread them cheeks and pray to the messiah! He's coming 1/20/2013. Lolololol!
 
2012-12-11 10:36:20 PM  

Serious Post on Serious Thread: So you openly admit that unions provide a collective good for all of society,


If a group of people want to collectively bargain for their wages, healthcare, pensions and working conditions and an employer, acting absent of any coercion or government interference desires to take the union into his shop as his source of labor, what does it matter either way what my opinion is? In this instance, the Union operates for the good of its members and those who wish not to be a part of it should be able to bargain with management for their own wage if they desire.

The notion that a faceless worker owes a pound of flesh to the Local is nonsense and you know it. There is no "ownership" of labor aside from that which is willingly relinquished by the shop owner.

Again, I argue that if Union labor is better and safer than nonunion, why do employers need to be coerced and picketed into hiring union labor? If Union membership is better than being nonunion, why are dues compulsory and if an individual doesn't want to join, they have to pay some sort of "protection" fee?

Progressivism - Ideas so good, they have to be mandatory
 
2012-12-11 10:37:55 PM  

beta_plus: KellyX: jst3p: slayer199: So much for peaceful protesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_F3oev06i0&feature=player_embedded

I predict this will be looked upon favorably by fark libs and assailed by fark conservatives.

Wow, that was uncalled for.

Wow, that guy was trying to force a confrontation to try to make a GOTCHA video huh?

The party of peace and tolerance strikes again!


Nah, we recently got together and had a vote. We're now the party of "Shut the Fark Up You Crybaby Coservavictim Teatarded Loser Assholes Because Everyone Is Sick of Your Trite Contrived and Appallingly Boring Bullshiat So Go Choke on a Bag of Dicks"
 
2012-12-11 10:45:00 PM  

o5iiawah: Serious Post on Serious Thread: So you openly admit that unions provide a collective good for all of society,

If a group of people want to collectively bargain for their wages, healthcare, pensions and working conditions and an employer, acting absent of any coercion or government interference desires to take the union into his shop as his source of labor, what does it matter either way what my opinion is? In this instance, the Union operates for the good of its members and those who wish not to be a part of it should be able to bargain with management for their own wage if they desire.

The notion that a faceless worker owes a pound of flesh to the Local is nonsense and you know it. There is no "ownership" of labor aside from that which is willingly relinquished by the shop owner.

Again, I argue that if Union labor is better and safer than nonunion, why do employers need to be coerced and picketed into hiring union labor? If Union membership is better than being nonunion, why are dues compulsory and if an individual doesn't want to join, they have to pay some sort of "protection" fee?

Progressivism - Ideas so good, they have to be mandatory


Tragedy of the Commons. Look it up.

And don't give me this 'all workers SHOULD be able to bargain individually or collectively' crap. I SHOULD be able to crap rose smelling turds, but SHOULD has fark all to do with it. Economics is a practical discipline, and you are preaching misguided religious ideology of the church of blind Libertarianism. Go Galt turd muncher.
 
2012-12-11 10:45:58 PM  

o5iiawah: Again, I argue that if Union labor is better and safer than nonunion, why do employers need to be coerced and picketed into hiring union labor?


Stupid question. Employers can't treat union workers as chattel as easily.

o5iiawah: If Union membership is better than being nonunion, why are dues compulsory and if an individual doesn't want to join, they have to pay some sort of "protection" fee?


Also stupid question. Unions have to negotiate even for non-members. There's no downside to being a free rider, and the union may as well try to get dues if they have to represent them anyway.
 
2012-12-11 10:46:23 PM  

Corvus: wxboy: heavymetal: In my opinion if a worker chooses not to belong to the union yet work at the union shop, then their pay and benefits should not be on par with those negotiated by the union for the union members.

You're advocating punishment for choosing not to participate in a union? Why not advocate for non-union employees to have their legs broken?

Why should people be getting the benefits of the Union without participating?


I guess for the same reason people that don't vote or pay taxes get certain benefits.
 
2012-12-11 10:55:28 PM  

get real: Corvus: wxboy: heavymetal: In my opinion if a worker chooses not to belong to the union yet work at the union shop, then their pay and benefits should not be on par with those negotiated by the union for the union members.

You're advocating punishment for choosing not to participate in a union? Why not advocate for non-union employees to have their legs broken?

Why should people be getting the benefits of the Union without participating?

I guess for the same reason people that don't vote or pay taxes get certain benefits.


Usually those folks are too young or old to work.
 
2012-12-11 11:06:56 PM  

Serious Post on Serious Thread: beta_plus: KellyX: jst3p: slayer199: So much for peaceful protesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_F3oev06i0&feature=player_embedded

I predict this will be looked upon favorably by fark libs and assailed by fark conservatives.

Wow, that was uncalled for.

Wow, that guy was trying to force a confrontation to try to make a GOTCHA video huh?

The party of peace and tolerance strikes again!

Nah, we recently got together and had a vote. We're now the party of "Shut the Fark Up You Crybaby Coservavictim Teatarded Loser Assholes Because Everyone Is Sick of Your Trite Contrived and Appallingly Boring Bullshiat So Go Choke on a Bag of Dicks"


That has a nice ring to it...I like it!

Watching Conservatism die by it's own hand...a joyous sight to behold.
 
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