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(Talking Points Memo)   Mich. Democrats: If you pass this, you will not reason with us, you cannot control us. There shall be chaos in the streets. Cats and dogs living together. Muslims and Jews breaking bread. Chaos, utter chaos   (tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 526
    More: Amusing, Democrats, John Dingell, Muslims and Jews, Michigan Republicans, union shops  
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5001 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Dec 2012 at 11:31 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-11 01:48:37 PM  

Leeds: Union workers are lazy. I am not. I can create more value for the company


How can you create more value for the company?

Be specific to me like you would be specific to your boss when trying to bargain for a higher salary.
 
2012-12-11 01:48:40 PM  

Leeds: Union workers are lazy


There it is!

As I said before, unions do not make workers lazy, lazy workers make workers lazy. I've been a part of unions negotiations (on the management side) for a few years in a past life, and all this rhetoric you spout about unions is complete and utter bollocks.

you know absolutely nothing about unions but what is spoon-fed to you by your ideology. plain and simple.
 
2012-12-11 01:50:41 PM  

Leeds:
Union workers are lazy. I am not. I can create more value for the company, ergo I can bargain for a higher salary./i>

so what happens when your boss decides that you cost too much? he fires you and then hires 4 or 5 H1B visa workers to do your job...but he keeps the union workers because he can't get rid of them without tanking the corporate profits for the quarter.

hey, the boss made money right? yay capitalism!

 
2012-12-11 01:50:59 PM  

Reverend Monkeypants: Career Union Representatives are just as terrible people as Career Politicians

IMO


I'll give you about 7/10 of them, in my past experiences, are complete farking shills. But I've had some that has helped me get through some tough negotiations and grievances.
 
2012-12-11 01:51:35 PM  

Leeds: jst3p: Leeds: Mrtraveler01: Leeds: Are you saying that I couldn't make my case to my employer that I could create more wealth for the company than a lazy union member and thus I am worthy of a higher salary than the union members that they have a contract with?

Yes, I think it's hysterical that you think you can bargain for a wage higher than a union worker in the same occupation as you.

Union workers are lazy. I am not. I can create more value for the company, ergo I can bargain for a higher salary.

Is capitalism entirely foreign to commies like you?

How are you going to move the assembly line faster?

I suspect I'd start by seeing if it was driven by a VFD, if it is I'd increase the signal going to it by bumping it up a milliamp or so.

If it was belt or gear driven I'd look to change the drive ratio to increase the speed.


Thank you for your contribution, you're fired.
 
2012-12-11 01:51:42 PM  

Weaver95: Leeds:
Union workers are lazy. I am not. I can create more value for the company, ergo I can bargain for a higher salary./i>

so what happens when your boss decides that you cost too much? he fires you and then hires 4 or 5 H1B visa workers to do your job...but he keeps the union workers because he can't get rid of them without tanking the corporate profits for the quarter.

hey, the boss made money right? yay capitalism!


capitalism stole my HTML closing tag. or socialism redistributed my italics. either way...oops.
 
2012-12-11 01:52:32 PM  
Remember, boys and girls:

* Don't like your boss? TOUGH SCHITT, YOU CAN GO WORK SOMEWHERE ELSE.

* Don't like your union? BAD UNION THUGS! BAD! BAD! BAD!
 
2012-12-11 01:53:07 PM  

udhq: Il Douchey: Michigan isn't prohibiting unions, it's just allowing workers to decide if they want to belong to them. Of course unions want the power to compel membership, it's so much easier than having to persuade people that voluntarily joining is in their best interest.

/Don't just demand union allegiance, earn it. -Good luck with that

No, that's not what rtw does. It mandates that unions have to offer their collective bargaining services free of charge.

It such a law were targeting any other group, we'd call it what its really is: government mandated slavery.




This is totally mental.
 
2012-12-11 01:53:12 PM  

Leeds: jst3p: Leeds: Mrtraveler01: Leeds: Are you saying that I couldn't make my case to my employer that I could create more wealth for the company than a lazy union member and thus I am worthy of a higher salary than the union members that they have a contract with?

Yes, I think it's hysterical that you think you can bargain for a wage higher than a union worker in the same occupation as you.

Union workers are lazy. I am not. I can create more value for the company, ergo I can bargain for a higher salary.

Is capitalism entirely foreign to commies like you?

How are you going to move the assembly line faster?

I suspect I'd start by seeing if it was driven by a VFD, if it is I'd increase the signal going to it by bumping it up a milliamp or so.

If it was belt or gear driven I'd look to change the drive ratio to increase the speed.



You miss the point. How are you going to make the other lazy union members faster?
 
2012-12-11 01:54:25 PM  

Cythraul: I'm willing to bet the right-to-work states are the poorest.


I'd be willing to be the RTW states have the lowest costs of living and better quality of life. Your typical $90k/yr Union laborer job in NY gets you a crappy apartment in queens.

The equivalent $50k in Florida, GA or SC affords one home ownership, savings and time for leisure. It costs $36 just to make a round trip across the GW.

Serious Post on Serious Thread: Unless you are ok with the whole free-riding thing, where everyone else gets to sacrifice, potentially even strike, to ensure the benefits they earned inure to you.


The NRA and ACLU will willingly fight for the rights of all citizens whether or not they are duespayers so the "Free-rider" whargarbl is a myth.
The reason taxes are withheld is because people would be outraged at getting straight cash from one pay window, then going to the local, state, federal and SS windows to fork over the cash that was just in their hand. The unions know this and that is why they are demanding dues be paid before the worker even sees them.
 
2012-12-11 01:55:06 PM  

Leeds: Mrtraveler01: Leeds: Are you saying that I couldn't make my case to my employer that I could create more wealth for the company than a lazy union member and thus I am worthy of a higher salary than the union members that they have a contract with?

Yes, I think it's hysterical that you think you can bargain for a wage higher than a union worker in the same occupation as you.

Union workers are lazy. I am not. I can create more value for the company, ergo I can bargain for a higher salary.

Is capitalism entirely foreign to commies like you?


I know youre a troll, but,,,

Wouldnt bargaining to get the most for your investment be the Height of Capitalism?

If I spend hard earned money to educate myself, through College or an extensive Apprenticeship program, shouldnt I try to recoup my investment in any way possible?

How much bargaining power do workers in China have?

Youre the Commie!
 
2012-12-11 01:56:08 PM  

Leeds: Not everyone who joins a union is lazy, but everyone who stays in one sure is.


Like career 911 dispatchers, police officers and fire fighters?
 
2012-12-11 01:56:55 PM  

o5iiawah: I'd be willing to be the RTW states have the lowest costs of living and better quality of life.


Cost of living, probably (since they're states that no one wants to live in and if they are places people want to live in, it's only because of the weather).

Quality of life? MS, AL, GA, SC, TX compared to places like NY, MA, MN, and WA?

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
 
2012-12-11 01:57:27 PM  

Il Douchey: Michigan isn't prohibiting unions, it's just allowing workers to decide if they want to belong to them. Of course unions want the power to compel membership, it's so much easier than having to persuade people that voluntarily joining is in their best interest.

/Don't just demand union allegiance, earn it. -Good luck with that


It's a sucker's proposition. The union is providing a valuable service. If I can receive the benefits of that service without cost then what motivation is there for me to pay dues? If you're not part of a union, you should be required to negotiate the terms of your employment yourself.
 
2012-12-11 01:59:30 PM  

Snarfangel: Corvus:

It's like if they made a law for football players saying "You can just not pay your agent if you don't want to".

Woohoo, free agents!


Funniest Post of The Day
 
2012-12-11 02:01:23 PM  
I was just watching the FOX news take on this. They said that there was "extreme violence" occurring, then all they did was show some people, er I mean rioting union thugs, shouting. They also informed me that the issue here just "basically frees people from being forced to pay union dues". Yup.
 
2012-12-11 02:01:55 PM  

studs up: mrshowrules: Here are the 10 best States for math and sciences education in the US:

Massachusetts
Minnesota
New Jersey
New Hampshire
New York
Virginia
Maryland
Connecticut
Indiana
Maine 

Any guesses what they bolded States have in common?

Asians?


I think you mean Orientals.
 
2012-12-11 02:02:14 PM  

Mrtraveler01: MS, AL, GA, SC, TX


Yes, all states where people from Cali, NY, CT, NJ and IL move to because they are sick of taxes, high prices and lousy weather.
It sucks ass being able to sportfish, golf and hunt 320+ days per year. It sucks ass being able to own a home for less than $200,000. You can laugh all you want - Look up statistics on where people are moving to and where they are coming from.
 
2012-12-11 02:03:37 PM  

o5iiawah: Cythraul: I'm willing to bet the right-to-work states are the poorest.

I'd be willing to be the RTW states have the lowest costs of living and better quality of life. Your typical $90k/yr Union laborer job in NY gets you a crappy apartment in queens.

The equivalent $50k in Florida, GA or SC affords one home ownership, savings and time for leisure. It costs $36 just to make a round trip across the GW.


Up thread I posted some info graphics. There is a cluster of fat, dumb and poor in our nation. FL, SC and GA are in the thick of it.
 
2012-12-11 02:03:53 PM  

Leeds: Anti_illuminati: Leeds: Not everyone who joins a union is lazy, but everyone who stays in one sure is.

Like career 911 dispatchers, police officers and fire fighters?

Pigs follow a different tangent. They start out honest and eventually they all become corrupt. And yes, that's the police union that facilitates the downward spiral, just like with workers.


You're a terrible person troll, you know that?
 
2012-12-11 02:04:27 PM  
I thought libs were all about choice. This law would give workers the option of turning down entry into a union. What is wrong with giving them a choice?
 
2012-12-11 02:06:17 PM  

Leeds: I'm the only person on this thread who was ever forced into a union because I lived in a non-right to work state.


This sounds like it should be a major news story, please tell us more. Did they abduct you from your home, or waylay you on the highway? I assume you tried to escape, or at least send a message for help?

It looks like you've escaped your forced labor, how did that happen?

I've heard about this sort of thing happening with illegals around the Mexican border. What a terrifying thought, I hope you tell us more about your experience!
 
2012-12-11 02:07:12 PM  
Magorn:You are living in a Hortio Algier bullshiat fantasy if you believe that if one broom-factory worker can excel and out-produce his fellow workers that management will notice and then spontaneously reward him for his superior efforts. IT DOES NOT HAPPEN.

Generally speaking, I prefer things like free choice, competition, effort, accountability and competence to determine who gets what. Union collectivists prefer things like cronyism, payoffs, coercion, waivers, bailouts and bullying to determine who gets what.

You are living in Karl Marx' worker's paradise if you think employer's interests should be subjugated to worker's interests. It won't end well comrade!
 
2012-12-11 02:07:55 PM  

Leeds: qorkfiend: Maybe if they hadn't tried to ram it through in a lame-duck session, Michigan Democrats and the unions wouldn't be so upset.

Why is it that whenever the Republicans do stuff like this, they have to resort to legislative trickery, suppression of opposition, and lame-duck sessions to get it done?

And you think that this is a republican thing?

Obamacare for the win.


So, I take it you were asleep for the first two years of Obama's first term?

Did you miss the town halls that were systematically interrupted by coordinated efforts on the part of the Teabaggers?

It at least got a public airing for over a year. This is being rammed through without any debate or voter input whatsoever.

Swing and a miss...
 
2012-12-11 02:09:16 PM  

o5iiawah: Mrtraveler01: MS, AL, GA, SC, TX

Yes, all states where people from Cali, NY, CT, NJ and IL move to because they are sick of taxes, high prices and lousy weather.
It sucks ass being able to sportfish, golf and hunt 320+ days per year. It sucks ass being able to own a home for less than $200,000. You can laugh all you want - Look up statistics on where people are moving to and where they are coming from.


Quality of life includes more than just how many golf courses and fishing spots there are.

Things like education and healthcare play a huge role in factoring in quality of life. Factors that RTW states tend to do abysmal in.
 
2012-12-11 02:10:23 PM  

giftedmadness: I thought libs were all about choice. This law would give workers the option of turning down entry into a union. What is wrong with giving them a choice?


The choice to be a freeloader?
 
2012-12-11 02:10:23 PM  

ReverendJasen: Weaver95: jehovahs witness protection: Democrats: People don't deserve the right to choose!

so you're pro-choice, pro-gay marriage AND pro-legalization of cannabis?

I'm all those things, and pro-right-to-work.

People make fun of the logical disparity that many conservatives display by crying freedom while they want to ban reproductive rights. This is along the same vein.
People, workers, deserve the right to choose whether they will take part in union. They also choose to not benefit from all the protections that come with that, but it's still a choice we have the right to make on our own.


They already can do that by not working at a union shop.
You people make these glib arguments about freedom, when the fact is the only "freedom" lost is the right to get farked over by management. The company entered freely into an agreement with the union, and this law allows the employer and potential employee to make an end-run around that contract.
 
2012-12-11 02:11:03 PM  

Weaver95:

I honestly don't know...but whatever kicked it off, . . .


What kicked it off was Detroit and the public unions thumbing their noses at Mayor Bing and the City Council. Snyder wanted to go the emergency manager rout, Detroit wanted to try and work it out. Prop 2 was the last straw. Here you go.
 
2012-12-11 02:12:13 PM  

Leeds: That's funny, I'm the only person on this thread who was ever forced into a union because I lived in a non-right to work state. The experience was terrible.


When I turned 18 and worked for Safeway I was forced to join the Union. It was fine.
 
2012-12-11 02:13:25 PM  

Crowd outside Romney building just got tear gassed

- evale72 (@evale72) December 11, 2012
 
2012-12-11 02:14:10 PM  

enderthexenocide: this kind of crap is what gives unions a bad name. the law will allow people to work at a job without forcing them to join the union, and the unions are freaking out. "no! we must not let people choose! they must join us if they want a job!"

i have a nice job and i make a good paycheck for what i do, i have nice benefits and i even earn profit sharing. and my company doesn't have a union. so whenever all those union supporters cry about "not having a union to fight for them" i just don't get it. i don't have a union fighting for me, and i have a great job and couldn't be happier with my salary and benefits. so why do i need a union?

sure, i suppose a union might get me a higher salary. but a few years ago, when the economy took a crap on everyone, my company cancelled all raises and profit sharing and cut our pay. we were really cutting it close for awhile there, and some of us thought the company would go under. but we managed to stay in business, and when things picked back up, all our raises were put back in place and it all went back to normal, and now we are doing great. a union probably would have prevented the company from cutting our pay or reducing our benefits, and in doing so they might well have forced the company to close. so my higher salary and "protection" by the union could have resulted in me losing my job. thanks, but no thanks.


How did the owners and managers of the company struggle during the recession? Was their pay and benefits cut, or just yours?
 
2012-12-11 02:15:15 PM  
Leeds:Do you not remember the fact that the Republicans were only given the hundreds of pages that constituted this bill hours before they were forced to vote on it? Do you not remember Nancy Pelosi refusing to allow people to read the damn thing? Or that she said that "we have to pass this shiate today, and you have to pass it to be allowed to read it" ???

If you aren't on crack you may as well be. It might make you smarter./i>

I remember the republicans hurf-blurfing about a proposal that was essentially the same thing Mitt Romney proposed in Massachusetts and was originally put forward by the heritage foundation. But I'm a liberal so I remember "stuff that actually happened" as opposed it "BS fox news talking points." Funny that.
 
2012-12-11 02:15:30 PM  

Leeds: How quaint that you forgot that it was brought to a vote in the house by nefarious means.


Which nefarious means were these?
 
2012-12-11 02:15:53 PM  

Il Douchey: Magorn: No unions are trying to prevent freeloaders from benefitting from all the work and money they spend negotiating a collective bargaining agreement, but no chpping in to make that happen. A reasonable position I think. You ever notice that "right to work" states are the ones with virtually no job protection laws for workers? You ever wonder why that is?

Workers and businesses are asking nothing but to be left alone. Unions are demanding the continued ability to coerce and force participation in a scheme that props up the worst, holds down the best and shuts out competition. You ever notice that most businesses and citizens are voluntarily moving away from big restriction states and to big freedom states? You ever wonder why that is?


It's because the unions are responsible for the 5 feet of snow and sub-freezing temps in union states. Right-to-work eliminates that.
 
2012-12-11 02:17:31 PM  

Dusk-You-n-Me: Crowd outside Romney building just got tear gassed- evale72 (@evale72) December 11, 2012


noraroseallendotcom.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-12-11 02:17:39 PM  

jst3p: poor


Poor is relative to cost of living. How much more do I have to repeat that?

When you need $90k in NY just to get by, $33k in Alabama sounds like a pittance.

bikerific: However, as fewer workers join the union, that leverage is lost. Overall wages and benefits will decline. Which is exactly what has happened in "right to work" states.

It's a classic prisoners dilemma.


No it isn't. it is a game if lift or loaf where say 8/10 people need to lift an object to ensure passage on a road and each member knows there's a chance they could loaf without anyone knowing and still have the mission accomplished. Of course like I said earlier, the Free-Rider is a myth since people would voluntarily give to their unions if they felt they got value from them. The NRA and ACLU will spend millions of dollars in court defending the rights of people regardless of whether or not they are duespayers. As unions claim to fight for "workers rights" what they are really looking for is the right to coerce dues out of people.

/knowyourgametheory
 
2012-12-11 02:18:26 PM  

RminusQ: Snarfangel: If you piss them off now, they'll vote twice as hard in the next election.

But the idea is to cripple them financially. The largest financial supporters of conservative candidates are billionaires, Karl Rove types, and other conservative PACs. The largest financial supporters of liberal candidates are unions. Cripple the unions, and you can drown out the liberal voices. Republicans aren't playing to win the next election, they're playing to win every election for the next 30 years.


Yes, and unions don't have any money and aren't able to influence elections at all in Michigan! They had their chance. The state is in a mess. The unions aren't fixing anything. Time to get over it.
 
2012-12-11 02:20:02 PM  

jst3p: Snarfangel: Look at this map:
[www.union1.org image 830x524]

It's clear that right-to-work legislation causes hurricanes, tornadoes, drought, supervolcanoes, and potatoes.

[www.union1.org image 830x524]

That map looks familiar....

[www.eaves.ca image 470x371]

[www.missourieconomy.org image 550x350]

[tcftakingnote.typepad.com image 500x398]


Fat, dumb, and poor, seem to be Southern virtues.


www.censusscope.org

Why do you hate black people? Are you racist?
 
2012-12-11 02:20:24 PM  

jaybeezey: The state is in a mess.


What mess would this be that is entirely solved by eliminating collective bargaining for a certain subset of unions?
 
2012-12-11 02:21:54 PM  

Frank N Stein: jst3p: Snarfangel: Look at this map:
[www.union1.org image 830x524]

It's clear that right-to-work legislation causes hurricanes, tornadoes, drought, supervolcanoes, and potatoes.

[www.union1.org image 830x524]

That map looks familiar....

[www.eaves.ca image 470x371]

[www.missourieconomy.org image 550x350]

[tcftakingnote.typepad.com image 500x398]


Fat, dumb, and poor, seem to be Southern virtues.

[www.censusscope.org image 567x473]

Why do you hate black people? Are you racist?


Yes, it's all black people who are fat. I've never in my entire life met a fat white Southerner.
 
2012-12-11 02:22:31 PM  

Leeds: udhq: Leeds: bikerific: Leeds: Right to work legislation makes it illegal for an outside group to block you from working if you and your employer have come to an employment agreement.


While still allowing you the reap the benefits that unions have obtained.

For a little while, anyway.

I never understood the line you have just parroted.

What does a union member's benefits have to do with a worker's benefits if the worker doesn't join the union but instead signs a contract with the employer?

Because workers who bargain collectively have more leverage and therefore get better deals.

If one worker wants to hold out for a better contract, management can afford to let him walk, he's replaceable.

If the entire workforce holds out, however, that's a site disruption to a business.

You should have the right not to participate in the service of having a union bargain on your behalf, but what rtw does is force the union to provide that service even if you refuse to pay. If that demand were made of any other industry, people would be rightfully outraged.

Unions aren't "an industry" though, perhaps that misconception is at the root of your problem.

Unions come in uninvited, force you to pay them money and then they limit your ability to negotiate with your own employer, all the while imposing rules meant to keep you less productive and inefficient lest you embarrass lazy union members.

The "service" you suggest that they provide free of charge is neither wanted or necessary. And once a state is a right to work state, that service is no longer forced upon people who don't want to associate with scumbag union members or their mafia-connected leaders.


Please provide one single example of Union ever coming in to a company against the wishes of the employees. In absence of that, your entire post is shiat.

You also neglect the plain fact that if the service they provided was not valuable, they wouldn't exist. Simple as that. Just like with a corporation, financial incentive is oxygen.
 
2012-12-11 02:24:31 PM  

o5iiawah: When you need $90k in NY just to get by, $33k in Alabama sounds like a pittance.


But then you'd have to live with substandard education and health care compared to NY.

Low cost of living comes at a cost.
 
2012-12-11 02:24:56 PM  

Mrtraveler01: o5iiawah: Mrtraveler01: MS, AL, GA, SC, TX

Yes, all states where people from Cali, NY, CT, NJ and IL move to because they are sick of taxes, high prices and lousy weather.
It sucks ass being able to sportfish, golf and hunt 320+ days per year. It sucks ass being able to own a home for less than $200,000. You can laugh all you want - Look up statistics on where people are moving to and where they are coming from.

Quality of life includes more than just how many golf courses and fishing spots there are.

Things like education and healthcare play a huge role in factoring in quality of life. Factors that RTW states tend to do abysmal in.


Yes, like FL where you can go to an in-state college and have 100% of tuition paid for by the state if you get good grades.
"Good healthcare" and "good schools" dont just grow on trees. There are trade-offs.

When both parents have to work 65+ hours per week to afford "good healthcare and the $9-12,000/yr property tax bills to fund the "good school" in many northeast Non-RTW states then is it really worth it? In RTW, a breadwinner can take home $50k while the secondary earner working part-time can take an active role in their child's education. Most of education takes place at home and under parental supervision and more and more parents are realizing that it isn't as much the so-called rating of the schools as the time they get to spend with their kids that is the most important part of education.

Or you probably just think that the millions of people leaving the northeast and CA for TX and the Southeast are just complete and abject dumbasses anyway so there's no sense in hitting you with any perspective.
 
2012-12-11 02:26:38 PM  
Job Creator:It's because the unions are responsible for the 5 feet of snow and sub-freezing temps in union states. Right-to-work eliminates that.

If bad weather is what's causing them to flee, why didn't it prevent them from setting up there in the first place?

/Also, people with productive ability are fleeing the beautiful state of California in droves
 
2012-12-11 02:26:40 PM  

qorkfiend: jaybeezey: The state is in a mess.

What mess would this be that is entirely solved by eliminating collective bargaining for a certain subset of unions?


Highest unemployment rate in the mid-west.
 
2012-12-11 02:27:38 PM  

o5iiawah: Yes, like FL where you can go to an in-state college and have 100% of tuition paid for by the state if you get good grades.
"Good healthcare" and "good schools" dont just grow on trees. There are trade-offs.

When both parents have to work 65+ hours per week to afford "good healthcare and the $9-12,000/yr property tax bills to fund the "good school" in many northeast Non-RTW states then is it really worth it? In RTW, a breadwinner can take home $50k while the secondary earner working part-time can take an active role in their child's education. Most of education takes place at home and under parental supervision and more and more parents are realizing that it isn't as much the so-called rating of the schools as the time they get to spend with their kids that is the most important part of education.


So why do you think the better performing schools are in the Northeast?

o5iiawah: Or you probably just think that the millions of people leaving the northeast and CA for TX and the Southeast are just complete and abject dumbasses anyway so there's no sense in hitting you with any perspective.


That or it's the weather. Why do you think most northerners are moving to FL? It sure isn't the laughable joke that is their public school system.
 
2012-12-11 02:28:26 PM  

tenpoundsofcheese: Klippoklondike: BillCo: You'll get over it.

No. People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.

people are pissed that people what the right to work and that bill is passed according to the rules?

this is what the people have voted for.


Know how I know you didn't rtfa? This bill is being passed the way it's being passed, in a lame-duck, closed door session, BECAUSE these majorities have already been voted out of office.
 
2012-12-11 02:28:37 PM  

o5iiawah: jst3p: poor

Poor is relative to cost of living. How much more do I have to repeat that?

When you need $90k in NY just to get by, $33k in Alabama sounds like a pittance.


Words mean things:

For example, for a four-person family unit with two children, the 2010 poverty threshold is $22.113. For one- or two-person family units, the poverty thresholds differ by age; the 2010 threshold for one individual under age 65 is $11,344, whereas for an individual 65 or over it is $10,458.

Link

That is broke wherever you are. It isn't "well I can have the same standard of living as someone earning 90k in NY" it is "on public assistance so I can eat".


www.veteranstoday.com

There is a clump of very broke people, and it is in the south. 

The cost of living is low in Wyoming, Utah, the Dakotas too, they aren't as red. Your argument is invalid.
 
2012-12-11 02:29:16 PM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: qorkfiend: jaybeezey: The state is in a mess.

What mess would this be that is entirely solved by eliminating collective bargaining for a certain subset of unions?

Highest unemployment rate in the mid-west.


Eliminating collective bargaining solves that problem in what way? Are you suggesting that businesses will hire more people than they need simply because collective bargaining has been eliminated?
 
2012-12-11 02:29:23 PM  

Mrtraveler01: Frank N Stein: jst3p: Snarfangel: Look at this map:
[www.union1.org image 830x524]

It's clear that right-to-work legislation causes hurricanes, tornadoes, drought, supervolcanoes, and potatoes.

[www.union1.org image 830x524]

That map looks familiar....

[www.eaves.ca image 470x371]

[www.missourieconomy.org image 550x350]

[tcftakingnote.typepad.com image 500x398]


Fat, dumb, and poor, seem to be Southern virtues.

[www.censusscope.org image 567x473]

Why do you hate black people? Are you racist?

Yes, it's all black people who are fat. I've never in my entire life met a fat white Southerner.


It is a valid point.
 
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