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(Talking Points Memo)   Mich. Democrats: If you pass this, you will not reason with us, you cannot control us. There shall be chaos in the streets. Cats and dogs living together. Muslims and Jews breaking bread. Chaos, utter chaos   (tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 526
    More: Amusing, Democrats, John Dingell, Muslims and Jews, Michigan Republicans, union shops  
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4995 clicks; posted to Politics » on 11 Dec 2012 at 11:31 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-11 11:43:42 AM
Am am pro-choice, pro-legalization, pro-gay marriage and pro-RTW -

I do not believe that ones decision to consent to a contract between themselves and an employer should require an additional contract between themselves and a labor union.

They should fully be allowed to enter than contract with the union if they choose, and their employer should not be able to discriminate against that employee because of that association. A laborer has a right to organize with his peers, but should not be made to -
 
2012-12-11 11:44:27 AM

Mrbogey: Mentat: As usual, it will be the Democrats who are left to clean up the mess.

Out of curiosity, can you name some cities where Dems have cleaned it up?


Pittsburgh, PA.

/next question
 
2012-12-11 11:44:41 AM
I hear it's getting a little heated in Lansing...

Apparently Americans for Prosperity had their tent ripped down. I'm sure we'll see videos of these "Union Thugs" for months to come.
 
2012-12-11 11:45:28 AM

ha-ha-guy: Mrbogey: Mentat: As usual, it will be the Democrats who are left to clean up the mess.

Out of curiosity, can you name some cities where Dems have cleaned it up?

Austin, Seattle, and Denver come to mind. Ann Arbor is also a technically a city, although a tiny ass one.


Can you elaborate on how the democrats cleaned up a Republican mess in Denver?
 
2012-12-11 11:45:50 AM
Anything that pisses off labor bosses is great fun.
 
2012-12-11 11:47:15 AM

jsteiner78: Am am pro-choice, pro-legalization, pro-gay marriage and pro-RTW -

I do not believe that ones decision to consent to a contract between themselves and an employer should require an additional contract between themselves and a labor union.

They should fully be allowed to enter than contract with the union if they choose, and their employer should not be able to discriminate against that employee because of that association. A laborer has a right to organize with his peers, but should not be made to -


The thing I hate about RTW is that it essentially drains the power from the unions because people would be able to enjoy the same perks that the union provides without having to pay dues. That is until they get so weak and powerless that they essentially fade out leaving employers in total control. 

It really should be called "Right-To-Be-A-Freeloader but then again that doesn't fit on a bumper sticker.
 
2012-12-11 11:47:22 AM
If this passes, the tears of liberal butt hurt shall be most delicious.
 
2012-12-11 11:48:08 AM
FTFA: "setting off a long legal and political fight with labor and Democrats."

If I read the law correctly, the police and firefighters' unions will be exempt from the right to work provisions. How can this be constitutional? And isn't that provision what got a Federal judge to set aside Wisconsin's law last year?
 
2012-12-11 11:48:19 AM

Klippoklondike: BillCo: You'll get over it.

No. People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.


Democracy is underhanded when it passes things that Liberals don't like.
 
2012-12-11 11:48:32 AM

Bloody William: Why is this called "right-to-work?" It sounds like the sickest twisting of words considering what it does.


Winston sank his arms to his sides and slowly refilled his lungs with air. His mind slid away into the labyrinthine world of doublethink. To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, ... and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself. That was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.
 
2012-12-11 11:49:39 AM

Mrtraveler01: Mrbogey: Mentat: As usual, it will be the Democrats who are left to clean up the mess.

Out of curiosity, can you name some cities where Dems have cleaned it up?

Pittsburgh, PA.

/next question


How'd the Republicans mess up Pittsburgh?
 
2012-12-11 11:50:11 AM

Leeds: qorkfiend: Maybe if they hadn't tried to ram it through in a lame-duck session, Michigan Democrats and the unions wouldn't be so upset.

Why is it that whenever the Republicans do stuff like this, they have to resort to legislative trickery, suppression of opposition, and lame-duck sessions to get it done?

And you think that this is a republican thing?

Obamacare for the win.


Yes, a bill that was debated for over a year and passed in broad daylight in normal session by both Houses of Congress is exactly the same as a bill passed in a lame-duck session overnight with no debate.
 
2012-12-11 11:50:18 AM

Cythraul: That might be a good thing.


In Germany worker's rights are written into their Constitution. German automakers (nearly all of which are unionized) earn twice what their American counterparts make and yet, as if by magic, these German firms are still quite profitable.

When you cooperate and collaborate with your workers it becomes a race to the top and everyone wins, as they have in Germany. In the states it has become a race to the bottom. What a surprise, then, that wages have been stagnant for 30 years while wealthiest have more money then god. What a surprise, then, that the middle class has no damn money left to purchase things beyond necessities, and our economy is sputtering along with little aggregate demand to support it.
 
2012-12-11 11:50:25 AM

Klippoklondike: slayer199: Klippoklondike: No. People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.

Doesn't matter, the GOP has the power in the state and they're going to take advantage of it.

You are right. People will have to let their votes be heard next election cycle.


They had their chance this past election:

Proposal 2, would have enshrined union collective bargaining powers in the state constitution

Proposal 2 was decisively defeated on Election Day, 58 percent to 42 percent

Right or wrong, the people spoke. In a state that Obama carried 50.7 to 47.6
 
2012-12-11 11:50:36 AM

Desquamation: I hear it's getting a little heated in Lansing...

Apparently Americans for Prosperity had their tent ripped down. I'm sure we'll see videos of these "Union Thugs" for months to come.


I keep hoping Snyder will just sack up and veto this sucker. In a sense i'm glad the bill passed as kind of a slap across the nose of the unions not to stick their shiat in our state constitution. The SEIU needed a smack upside their head for the whole attempted forced assimilation of health care workers. Actually passing this goes too far and if Snyder signs he's assuring that when the time comes I vote for the Dem candidate as this is a third rail issue. Odds are he signs it though.

Although frankly I'm sure if this bill can survive. It was passed in such a manner as to be immune to referendum, which no matter which side you're on should show itself as a clear attempt to circumvent democracy. I could see the Supreme Court killing this whole thing. If they do pass the bill in a form where it can be hit via ballot initiative, it won't live past the next election. The polls seem to be showing most Michiganders don't want collective bargaining enshrined in the constitution, but we also dislike the idea of being right to work.
 
2012-12-11 11:51:16 AM

beta_plus: Klippoklondike: BillCo: You'll get over it.

No. People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.

Democracy is underhanded when it passes things that Liberals don't like.


Based on your posts in this thread you appear to only like it because it pisses off those who oppose you politically, and in my opinion that makes you a very pathetic person.
 
2012-12-11 11:52:08 AM
I'm fine with right to Work, as long as the non-union employees are fine negotiating for their own salaries, their own sick days, vacations, benefits, and employment. They get no help from the union, and don't get union wages by default.
/no free rides.
 
2012-12-11 11:52:14 AM

Zeb Hesselgresser: Klippoklondike: slayer199: Klippoklondike: No. People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.

Doesn't matter, the GOP has the power in the state and they're going to take advantage of it.

You are right. People will have to let their votes be heard next election cycle.

They had their chance this past election:

Proposal 2, would have enshrined union collective bargaining powers in the state constitution

Proposal 2 was decisively defeated on Election Day, 58 percent to 42 percent

Right or wrong, the people spoke. In a state that Obama carried 50.7 to 47.6


Declining to enshrine collective bargaining into the Constitution does not mean the GOP has a mandate to make it illegal.
 
2012-12-11 11:52:55 AM
Oh and for the record, I just pulled up a video from Youtube and got a 30 second clip from some PAC supporting the right to work bill. I spent all of Sept-Nov getting Hoekstra and Romney ads, now I get this shiat. fark that. As a Michigan resident I'm now ready to burn some shiat down, get the campaign ads off my Youtube.
 
2012-12-11 11:52:55 AM

Mrbogey: Mrtraveler01: Mrbogey: Mentat: As usual, it will be the Democrats who are left to clean up the mess.

Out of curiosity, can you name some cities where Dems have cleaned it up?

Pittsburgh, PA.

/next question

How'd the Republicans mess up Pittsburgh?


Republicans didn't mess up the city, it just fell victim to globalization when the steel industry there went belly-up. Afterwards, more was being invested into schools and hospitals there to the point that health care and education and technology dominate the Pittsburgh economy in what was formerly Steel Country. 

Most cities are run by Democrats anyway so I don't see your point in that question.
 
2012-12-11 11:53:03 AM

Zeb Hesselgresser: Klippoklondike: slayer199: Klippoklondike: No. People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.

Doesn't matter, the GOP has the power in the state and they're going to take advantage of it.

You are right. People will have to let their votes be heard next election cycle.

They had their chance this past election:

Proposal 2, would have enshrined union collective bargaining powers in the state constitution

Proposal 2 was decisively defeated on Election Day, 58 percent to 42 percent

Right or wrong, the people spoke. In a state that Obama carried 50.7 to 47.6


Most of the people I know were against amending the state constitution for any reason... It's why all three of the ballot proposals aimed at amending the constitution didn't pass.
 
2012-12-11 11:53:05 AM
This law doesn't apply to policeman and firemen does it? 9/11 and all that stuff...blah blah...never forget...
 
2012-12-11 11:54:16 AM
You know, Loyalist Tories lived here, among us, before the Revolution.

And we recognized them for what they were, burned their farms to the ground and drove musket balls through their Tory faces.

Just because it lives in America doesn't make it American.

The enemy of our country is right here, among us. And it is the GOP, who represent the interests of corporations and banks that owe no allegiance to any flag. The GOP does not represent America, they are the enemy of America and should be dealt with as such.

Musket balls.

Faces.
 
2012-12-11 11:54:57 AM
Remember, it's OK for Liberals to force you to do things that you don't want to do, because they are good, but bad for Conservatives to not give you stuff that they don't want to give you because they are all racist fascists.
 
2012-12-11 11:55:12 AM

Mentat: slayer199: This past weekend, I pulled a number of stats off the bls.gov website. The stats are not conclusive either way...though people will spin the stats in favor of their position. My conclusion is that it won't be the panacea for Michigan's economy that the GOP thinks it will be, nor will it be the end of western civilization that the unions/Democrats think it will be. Time will tell.

It's not intended as a panacea for the economy. The 2010 elections allowed the GOP to take the war against unions to the unions' home turf. The GOP is going to do as much damage as possible before they get thrown out. As usual, it will be the Democrats who are left to clean up the mess.

Every day I get more and more annoyed at liberals who sat out the 2010 elections to "send a message". Message received morons.


We didn't all sit out. Some of us actually voted that year. It's just our votes didn't matter if we lived in certain states.

/I voted against Lee Terry in 2010.
//Voted against Jeff Fortenberry last month.
///Didn't change sh*t.
 
2012-12-11 11:55:56 AM

Desquamation: Most of the people I know were against amending the state constitution for any reason... It's why all three of the ballot proposals aimed at amending the constitution didn't pass.


Yup. The only ballot proposal that actually had a place on that ballot was on the emergency manager law. In that Snyder ran on that idea, was elected, got it passed, and then the courts killed it. So putting it to popular vote was a fair way to put it to rest. The union ones, the tax supermajority one, green energy one, and the bridge one had no farking place on the ballot or the state constitution.
 
2012-12-11 11:56:33 AM

qorkfiend: Declining to enshrine collective bargaining into the Constitution does not mean the GOP has a mandate to make it illegal.


I'm pretty sure RTW doesn't make collective bargaining illegal, it just makes it illegal to require an employee to participate in the "collective".
 
2012-12-11 11:56:57 AM

Snarfangel: Look at this map:
[www.union1.org image 830x524]

It's clear that right-to-work legislation causes hurricanes, tornadoes, drought, supervolcanoes, and potatoes.


Don't forget racism, unlike racist free non-right-to-work Massachusetts:

blog.mywonderfulworld.org
 
2012-12-11 11:57:31 AM

Snarfangel: Look at this map:
[www.union1.org image 830x524]

It's clear that right-to-work legislation causes hurricanes, tornadoes, drought, supervolcanoes, and potatoes.


www.union1.org

That map looks familiar....

www.eaves.ca

www.missourieconomy.org

tcftakingnote.typepad.com


Fat, dumb, and poor, seem to be Southern virtues.
 
2012-12-11 11:57:41 AM

Leeds: Bloody William: Why is this called "right-to-work?" It sounds like the sickest twisting of words considering what it does.

No, that's the literal interpretation.

Way back when, if you sought a job and the company offered it to you and you accepted it, you had that job. Then a few decades ago unions granted themselves the ability to keep you from your job if you refused to pay them money (to join their ranks). You literally could be offered a job, accept that job, then be barred from working at your job because some union somewhere needed you to pay them for the privilege of working at a job you already have.

Right to work legislation makes it illegal for an outside group to block you from working if you and your employer have come to an employment agreement.


Police unions still think that is a good policy.
 
2012-12-11 11:57:56 AM

beta_plus: Remember, it's OK for Liberals to force you to do things that you don't want to do, because they are good, but bad for Conservatives to not give you stuff that they don't want to give you because they are all racist fascists.


You're ready to enjoy some liberal butthurt. Seems like you need some Prep H for your own.
 
2012-12-11 11:58:48 AM

Stone Meadow: FTFA: "setting off a long legal and political fight with labor and Democrats."

If I read the law correctly, the police and firefighters' unions will be exempt from the right to work provisions. How can this be constitutional? And isn't that provision what got a Federal judge to set aside Wisconsin's law last year?


9/11.
 
2012-12-11 11:58:55 AM

verbaltoxin: beta_plus: Remember, it's OK for Liberals to force you to do things that you don't want to do, because they are good, but bad for Conservatives to not give you stuff that they don't want to give you because they are all racist fascists.

You're ready to enjoy some liberal butthurt. Seems like you need some Prep H for your own.


Seems more like flailing around because everyone has the known troll on ignore or marked such.
 
2012-12-11 11:59:20 AM

beta_plus: Remember, it's OK for Liberals to force you to do things that you don't want to do, because they are good, but bad for Conservatives to not give you stuff that they don't want to give you because they are all racist fascists.


I think that if the GOP keeps going this route, it will end badly for them.
 
2012-12-11 12:00:04 PM
We must stop this legislation or our greatest city, Detroit, will be destroyed:

i.huffpost.com
 
2012-12-11 12:05:36 PM
Nothing new to see here and no surprises for anyone who has kept up on the issue. It has been discussed for years and they are now just finally getting around to it. Meh.
 
2012-12-11 12:06:17 PM

Klippoklondike: slayer199: Klippoklondike: No. People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.

Doesn't matter, the GOP has the power in the state and they're going to take advantage of it.

You are right. People will have to let their votes be heard next election cycle.


or we could go back to the old union tactics of the 60's and 70's
some politicos might get the message then.
 
2012-12-11 12:06:43 PM
jst3p: Fat, dumb, and poor, seem to be Southern virtues.


-----------


After a couple of decades in GA, I can confirm this. My ex's family is from 'round here, and average a divorce a year, a marriage a year and see it as normal that their 14 year old girls date men in their 20s. I get why people fark 14 year old girls from GA, because in just a few years they will be morbidly obese.
 
2012-12-11 12:07:40 PM

Klippoklondike: slayer199: Klippoklondike: No. People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.

Doesn't matter, the GOP has the power in the state and they're going to take advantage of it.

You are right. People will have to let their votes be heard next election cycle.


Exactly. Hey Michigan idiots, stop voting for these assholes.
 
2012-12-11 12:08:29 PM
and it's not just right to work.
they passed a law banning mandatory dues.
this isn't just about sucking corporate cock
it's about cutting the Dems off at the knees financially
in the wake of Citizen's United it's akin to a fascist coup
 
2012-12-11 12:08:35 PM

jst3p: Snarfangel: Look at this map:
[www.union1.org image 830x524]

It's clear that right-to-work legislation causes hurricanes, tornadoes, drought, supervolcanoes, and potatoes.

[www.union1.org image 830x524]

That map looks familiar....

[www.eaves.ca image 470x371]

[www.missourieconomy.org image 550x350]

[tcftakingnote.typepad.com image 500x398]


Fat, dumb, and poor, seem to be Southern virtues.


People keep going, "RTW are dumb, hurr," but Nebraska is showing on those charts to be both successful (Lower unemployment % than the national average for the last 2 years at least), is competently literate compared to blue states, and is right to work.

I came from a strongly pro-union family, so I'm one of the last you'll see favoring union-busting, but I do think making RTW this huge evil is overblown. Let's float some ideas here: in RTW states, some - but not all - of the states have had historically poorer working conditions, worse employment trends, lower pay and benefits, and weak unionization. Nebraska and those higher up the scale can't be ruled outliers though. Nebraska, like other RTW states, has a strong agrarian economy, but it also has a growing finance and tech industry (Not to mention a major Air Force base), other industries unkind to unionization. Those states with greater union participation enjoyed a long period of industrial ecomony, industries which have contracted and been slowly replaced by tech jobs. Tech jobs don't have a lot of unions. So unions have lost ground among America's middle class in what were historically union strongholds.

In the South, new manufacturing have sprung up, but they've been sans unionization; take the Subaru, BMW, Toyota and other foreign car plants present there. These Japanese firms offer equivalent pay and benefits without the union. So it goes these workers assume they don't need to unionize. Thus anti-union sentiment continues.

At least that's my take on it.

/Yes I'm aware of the gains unions have made for our working force. Reread my first sentence, I don't need a history lesson.
//And yes, I'm aware RTW diminishes the group impact unions have on a workforce; nonunion workers benefit from union presence on a jobsite.
 
2012-12-11 12:08:58 PM

Insatiable Jesus: jst3p: Fat, dumb, and poor, seem to be Southern virtues.


-----------


After a couple of decades in GA, I can confirm this. My ex's family is from 'round here, and average a divorce a year, a marriage a year and see it as normal that their 14 year old girls date men in their 20s. I get why people fark 14 year old girls from GA, because in just a few years they will be morbidly obese.


What is a Georgia virgin?

An ugly fifth grader that can out run her older brother.
 
2012-12-11 12:09:17 PM

beta_plus: Remember, it's OK for Liberals to force you to do things that you don't want to do, because they are good, but bad for Conservatives to not give you stuff that they don't want to give you because they are all racist fascists.


Also, being born with an underdeveloped brain stem really sucks.
 
2012-12-11 12:11:19 PM

Leeds: qorkfiend: Leeds: qorkfiend: Maybe if they hadn't tried to ram it through in a lame-duck session, Michigan Democrats and the unions wouldn't be so upset.

Why is it that whenever the Republicans do stuff like this, they have to resort to legislative trickery, suppression of opposition, and lame-duck sessions to get it done?

And you think that this is a republican thing?

Obamacare for the win.

Yes, a bill that was debated for over a year and passed in broad daylight in normal session by both Houses of Congress is exactly the same as a bill passed in a lame-duck session overnight with no debate.

You couldn't be more wrong. I suspect that you need to rrview the cspan tapes if you have forgotten how it went down.


Look I'm sorry you were asleep and missed everything.
 
2012-12-11 12:11:25 PM

verbaltoxin: People keep going, "RTW are dumb, hurr," but Nebraska is showing on those charts to be both successful (Lower unemployment % than the national average for the last 2 years at least), is competently literate compared to blue states, and is right to work.


Because when I think thriving industrialized and modern economy, I think "Nebraska"!
 
2012-12-11 12:11:35 PM
Seems to me if I were the Union leaders, I'd just make sure in the next contract that all union workers get X% more than workers that aren't part of the union, that would encourage them to join and pay their dues.
 
2012-12-11 12:12:37 PM
I'm sorry, I can't hear liberal fear mongering over how awesome the Texas economy is.
 
2012-12-11 12:13:16 PM
Just accept your corporate masters and everything will be fine. They only want what's best for you.
 
2012-12-11 12:14:24 PM
jst3p: verbaltoxin: People keep going, "RTW are dumb, hurr," but Nebraska is showing on those charts to be both successful (Lower unemployment % than the national average for the last 2 years at least), is competently literate compared to blue states, and is right to work.

Because when I think thriving industrialized and modern economy, I think "Nebraska"!


---------------

Nebraska does well economically thanks to Con Agra, who is poisoning America with HFCS.
 
2012-12-11 12:14:53 PM

jst3p: verbaltoxin: People keep going, "RTW are dumb, hurr," but Nebraska is showing on those charts to be both successful (Lower unemployment % than the national average for the last 2 years at least), is competently literate compared to blue states, and is right to work.

Because when I think thriving industrialized and modern economy, I think "Nebraska"!


Because you didn't bother to read the following 3 paragraphs!

/Berkshire Hathaway, Valmont, ConAgra, TD Ameritrade, Security National, Woodman of the World, Mutual of Omaha, Union Pacific - all based in Nebraska.
 
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