FARK.com: (7479926) Mich. Democrats: If you pass this, you will not reason with us, you cannot control us. There shall be chaos in the streets. Cats and dogs living together. Muslims and Jews breaking bread. Chaos, utter chaos

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		Mich. Democrats: If you pass this, you will not reason with us, you cannot control us. There shall be chaos in the streets. Cats and dogs living together. Muslims and Jews breaking bread. Chaos, utter chaos (tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com)		526
		More: Amusing, Democrats, John Dingell, Muslims and Jews, Michigan Republicans, union shops

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quatchi		2012-12-11 08:12:24 AM

Right to work laws in Michigan?

That's not gonna end well.

BillCo		2012-12-11 08:28:00 AM

You'll get over it.

Klippoklondike		2012-12-11 08:29:19 AM

BillCo: You'll get over it.

No. People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.

slayer199		2012-12-11 08:33:20 AM

Klippoklondike: No. People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.

Doesn't matter, the GOP has the power in the state and they're going to take advantage of it.

Klippoklondike		2012-12-11 08:38:11 AM

quatchi		2012-12-11 08:45:45 AM

slayer199: take advantage

So they will.

jbuist		2012-12-11 09:05:43 AM

Klippoklondike: People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.

I don't understand this argument. The RTW stuff has been lobbied for for at least a year or two. It was not a new idea. They put any work on hold when Prop 2 hit the ballot because that would have made RTW unconstitutional. So, when Prop 2 failed they whisked RTW on through.

I'm not sure what people wanted. Another year to debate the merits of such a law? *shrug*

Il Douchey		2012-12-11 09:07:17 AM

Michigan isn't prohibiting unions, it's just allowing workers to decide if they want to belong to them. Of course unions want the power to compel membership, it's so much easier than having to persuade people that voluntarily joining is in their best interest.

/Don't just demand union allegiance, earn it. -Good luck with that

jehovahs witness protection		2012-12-11 09:18:48 AM

Democrats: People don't deserve the right to choose!

slayer199		2012-12-11 09:21:15 AM

jbuist: I'm not sure what people wanted. Another year to debate the merits of such a law? *shrug*

Governor Snyder urged the unions not to push forward on Prop 2. When they did it anyway and Prop 2 was defeated, the political backlash moved RTW to the front of the line. The GOP has significant majorities in the state house, state senate, a majority on the State Supreme Court, and the Governorship...in a state that's been blue for Presidential elections since 1992 and has 2 Democratic Senators.. Basically, they'd never have another shot at this where everything aligns in their favor. Additionally, polling puts 51-54% of Michigan citizens in favor of RTW.

Mentat		2012-12-11 09:21:53 AM

jbuist: Klippoklondike: People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.

I don't understand this argument. The RTW stuff has been lobbied for for at least a year or two. It was not a new idea. They put any work on hold when Prop 2 hit the ballot because that would have made RTW unconstitutional. So, when Prop 2 failed they whisked RTW on through.

I'm not sure what people wanted. Another year to debate the merits of such a law? *shrug*

Several things:

First, it's a lame duck session trying to ram it through before the session is up, which rankles people.
Second, they passed it as a spending bill which means that it can't be brought up as a public referendum, which enrages people.

They're basically telling the people "Fark you, we're doing this and you can't stop us." It's pretty typical GOP tactics where they drop a turd in the punch bowl and the Democrats have to waste time fishing it out.

Diogenes		2012-12-11 09:22:54 AM

jehovahs witness protection: Democrats: People don't deserve the right to choose!

So you're on board with abortion rights and gay marriage?

Noted.

Cythraul		2012-12-11 09:31:09 AM

Can someone post a graph that shows the economic prosperity state-by-state in regards as to which states have what in the ways of labor laws?

I'm willing to bet the right-to-work states are the poorest.

Weaver95		2012-12-11 09:38:49 AM

BillCo: You'll get over it.

I don't think so. this law bypassed the normal process of democracy and the local GOP has been extremely heavy handed about passing it. the Republicans have already damaged their brand in this fight. passing that law will tell Democrats (and third parties) that the GOP isn't interested in democracy anymore, they're just in it for the money and power.

Weaver95		2012-12-11 09:40:53 AM

jehovahs witness protection: Democrats: People don't deserve the right to choose!

so you're pro-choice, pro-gay marriage AND pro-legalization of cannabis?

huh. go figure.

Diogenes		2012-12-11 09:42:50 AM

Weaver95: BillCo: You'll get over it.

I don't think so. this law bypassed the normal process of democracy and the local GOP has been extremely heavy handed about passing it. the Republicans have already damaged their brand in this fight. passing that law will tell Democrats (and third parties) that the GOP isn't interested in democracy anymore, they're just in it for the money and power.

Yeah, I have to admit I'm of mixed minds on right-to-work. But the way this was done is offensive. Let the people choose.

Weaver95		2012-12-11 09:49:59 AM

Diogenes: Weaver95: BillCo: You'll get over it.

I don't think so. this law bypassed the normal process of democracy and the local GOP has been extremely heavy handed about passing it. the Republicans have already damaged their brand in this fight. passing that law will tell Democrats (and third parties) that the GOP isn't interested in democracy anymore, they're just in it for the money and power.

Yeah, I have to admit I'm of mixed minds on right-to-work. But the way this was done is offensive. Let the people choose.

even if you agree with the theory behind the law you STILL have to admit that the GOP's implementation of it was NOT proper. they rushed it through, locked civilians out of the state capital and shut down any attempts to debate its merits. this thing was pushed through last minute and in a very questionable manner. it's smash mouth politics, and its going to piss voters off.

Mentat		2012-12-11 09:55:19 AM

Cythraul: Can someone post a graph that shows the economic prosperity state-by-state in regards as to which states have what in the ways of labor laws?

I'm willing to bet the right-to-work states are the poorest.

Economists: Right-to-work states have lower-income residents, poor labor relations

mrshowrules		2012-12-11 10:05:45 AM

Here are the bottom 10, worse States in the US for Math and Science education:

Arkansas
Oklahoma
Nebraska
Nevada
Arizona
New Mexico
Alabama
Louisiana y
West Virginia
Mississippi

Any guesses what the ones in bold have in common?

mrshowrules		2012-12-11 10:08:53 AM

Here are the 10 best States for math and sciences education in the US:

Massachusetts
Minnesota
New Jersey
New Hampshire
New York
Virginia
Maryland
Connecticut
Indiana
Maine

Any guesses what they bolded States have in common?

Diogenes		2012-12-11 10:11:35 AM

mrshowrules: Here are the bottom 10, worse States in the US for Math and Science education:

Arkansas
Oklahoma
Nebraska
Nevada
Arizona
New Mexico
Alabama
Louisiana y
West Virginia
Mississippi

Any guesses what the ones in bold have in common?

Not to deny the point you're making, but I find it interesting that Florida isn't on that list. One, because it's a right-to-work state. And two...because it's Florida.

Snarfangel		2012-12-11 10:13:39 AM

If you piss them off now, they'll vote twice as hard in the next election.

Cythraul		2012-12-11 10:17:48 AM

Mentat: Cythraul: Can someone post a graph that shows the economic prosperity state-by-state in regards as to which states have what in the ways of labor laws?

I'm willing to bet the right-to-work states are the poorest.

Economists: Right-to-work states have lower-income residents, poor labor relations

I'm shocked! Maybe someone should remind the good people of Michigan that this is what they're fighting for.

RminusQ		2012-12-11 10:37:38 AM

Snarfangel: If you piss them off now, they'll vote twice as hard in the next election.

But the idea is to cripple them financially. The largest financial supporters of conservative candidates are billionaires, Karl Rove types, and other conservative PACs. The largest financial supporters of liberal candidates are unions. Cripple the unions, and you can drown out the liberal voices. Republicans aren't playing to win the next election, they're playing to win every election for the next 30 years.

minoridiot		2012-12-11 10:39:24 AM

mrshowrules: Here are the bottom 10, worse States in the US for Math and Science education:

Arkansas
Oklahoma
Nebraska
Nevada
Arizona
New Mexico
Alabama
Louisiana y
West Virginia
Mississippi

Any guesses what the ones in bold have in common?

Those sort of lists are silly because they imply some sort of correlation. The funny thing is if you look at a similar list of top ten states for occupational fatalities (can be found at bls.gov), it is predominatly those states that do not have Right to Work laws. Additionally, you could draw up a list of states by unemployment (again at bls.gov), and the states with the lowest unemployment are generally those with Right to Work laws and those with the highest unemployment are those mostly those without the Right to Work laws. The fact of the matter is that those sort of issues are much more complex than a simple Right to Work law which only provides choices, not restrictions.

mrshowrules		2012-12-11 10:43:43 AM

Diogenes: mrshowrules: Here are the bottom 10, worse States in the US for Math and Science education:

Arkansas
Oklahoma
Nebraska
Nevada
Arizona
New Mexico
Alabama
Louisiana y
West Virginia
Mississippi

Any guesses what the ones in bold have in common?

Not to deny the point you're making, but I find it interesting that Florida isn't on that list. One, because it's a right-to-work state. And two...because it's Florida.

Actually it is 11th in math and sciences. No doubt the space program in that State has some influence.

I_Am_Weasel		2012-12-11 10:44:01 AM

mrshowrules: Here are the 10 best States for math and sciences education in the US:

Massachusetts
Minnesota
New Jersey
New Hampshire
New York
Virginia
Maryland
Connecticut
Indiana
Maine

Any guesses what they bolded States have in common?

They begin with the letters M, N or C? (Apparently missing the BS)

mrshowrules		2012-12-11 10:47:21 AM

minoridiot: mrshowrules: Here are the bottom 10, worse States in the US for Math and Science education:

Arkansas
Oklahoma
Nebraska
Nevada
Arizona
New Mexico
Alabama
Louisiana y
West Virginia
Mississippi

Any guesses what the ones in bold have in common?

Those sort of lists are silly because they imply some sort of correlation. The funny thing is if you look at a similar list of top ten states for occupational fatalities (can be found at bls.gov), it is predominatly those states that do not have Right to Work laws. Additionally, you could draw up a list of states by unemployment (again at bls.gov), and the states with the lowest unemployment are generally those with Right to Work laws and those with the highest unemployment are those mostly those without the Right to Work laws. The fact of the matter is that those sort of issues are much more complex than a simple Right to Work law which only provides choices, not restrictions.

Why is it a leap to assume that teachers with higher salaries and better benefits, are better teachers. This does not take a leap of faith to understand.

Occupational fatalities would obviously be more closely linked more to types of occupation.

mrshowrules		2012-12-11 10:53:54 AM

I_Am_Weasel: mrshowrules: Here are the 10 best States for math and sciences education in the US:

Massachusetts
Minnesota
New Jersey
New Hampshire
New York
Virginia
Maryland
Connecticut
Indiana
Maine

Any guesses what they bolded States have in common?

They begin with the letters M, N or C? (Apparently missing the BS)

Education has a sharp negative correlation with States with right-to-work laws and a clear positive correlation to States who support union rights.

slayer199		2012-12-11 11:02:12 AM

This past weekend, I pulled a number of stats off the bls.gov website. The stats are not conclusive either way...though people will spin the stats in favor of their position. My conclusion is that it won't be the panacea for Michigan's economy that the GOP thinks it will be, nor will it be the end of western civilization that the unions/Democrats think it will be. Time will tell.

jehovahs witness protection		2012-12-11 11:04:02 AM

Diogenes: jehovahs witness protection: Democrats: People don't deserve the right to choose!

So you're on board with abortion rights and gay marriage?

Noted.

I always have been. You should pay closer attention.

jehovahs witness protection		2012-12-11 11:05:14 AM

Weaver95: jehovahs witness protection: Democrats: People don't deserve the right to choose!

so you're pro-choice, pro-gay marriage AND pro-legalization of cannabis?

huh. go figure.

Yes. NEXT...

Grand_Moff_Joseph		2012-12-11 11:08:44 AM

Didn't Marx see most of this coming?

Mentat		2012-12-11 11:10:34 AM

slayer199: This past weekend, I pulled a number of stats off the bls.gov website. The stats are not conclusive either way...though people will spin the stats in favor of their position. My conclusion is that it won't be the panacea for Michigan's economy that the GOP thinks it will be, nor will it be the end of western civilization that the unions/Democrats think it will be. Time will tell.

It's not intended as a panacea for the economy. The 2010 elections allowed the GOP to take the war against unions to the unions' home turf. The GOP is going to do as much damage as possible before they get thrown out. As usual, it will be the Democrats who are left to clean up the mess.

Every day I get more and more annoyed at liberals who sat out the 2010 elections to "send a message". Message received morons.

Weaver95		2012-12-11 11:14:16 AM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Didn't Marx see most of this coming?

no, but Machiavelli sure did.

Snarfangel		2012-12-11 11:16:36 AM

Look at this map:
www.union1.org

It's clear that right-to-work legislation causes hurricanes, tornadoes, drought, supervolcanoes, and potatoes.

GAT_00		2012-12-11 11:32:55 AM

slayer199: This past weekend, I pulled a number of stats off the bls.gov website. The stats are not conclusive either way...though people will spin the stats in favor of their position. My conclusion is that it won't be the panacea for Michigan's economy that the GOP thinks it will be, nor will it be the end of western civilization that the unions/Democrats think it will be. Time will tell.

I, uh, I did a whole bunch of number crunching using my own math NO YOU CAN'T SEE IT NOBODY CAN SEE IT and it's clear, uh, that we'll all be better if anyone in a union died in a fire.

qorkfiend		2012-12-11 11:33:51 AM

Maybe if they hadn't tried to ram it through in a lame-duck session, Michigan Democrats and the unions wouldn't be so upset.

Why is it that whenever the Republicans do stuff like this, they have to resort to legislative trickery, suppression of opposition, and lame-duck sessions to get it done?

thurstonxhowell		2012-12-11 11:35:47 AM

minoridiot: Those sort of lists are silly because they imply some sort of correlation.

No, they display correlation. The word you're looking for is causation.

ha-ha-guy		2012-12-11 11:37:19 AM

slayer199: Klippoklondike: No. People are pissed not just at what the law is but the underhanded way in which it is being passed.

Doesn't matter, the GOP has the power in the state and they're going to take advantage of it.

In hindsight, attempting to enshrine collective bargaining in the state constitution at this time was a stupid farking move. It failed miserable, showed weakness, and the Republicans jumped on it. The unions should have waited till they at least either enough Dems in the legislature to protect them from blowback or a Dem governor to veto it.

The big problem with Dem strategists in Michigan is they all think they're still living in the glory days of unions and can do whatever they want and then go get rubber stamped at the polls. In reality~16% of this state is unionized and union discipline isn't as strong as it once was.

When the Dems stay moderate they have no issues winning elections, but when they get lazy we end up with Republican governors and the like.

/Stabenow actually was just far enough to the left she was on course for an ass kicking this election cycle
//until the Republicans nominated Hoekstra and Stabenow suddenly became awesome in comparison to that farkhead

Dusk-You-n-Me		2012-12-11 11:38:08 AM

From 1973 to 2007, private sector union membership in the United States declined from 34 to 8 percent for men and from 16 to 6 percent for women. During this period, inequality in hourly wages increased by over 40 percent. We report a decomposition, relating rising inequality to the union wage distribution's shrinking weight. We argue that unions helped institutionalize norms of equity, reducing the dispersion of nonunion wages in highly unionized regions and industries. Accounting for unions' effect on union and nonunion wages suggests that the decline of organized labor explains a fifth to a third of the growth in inequality-an effect comparable to the growing stratification of wages by education. Link

Deny the private sector (unions) the ability to reduce income inequality and you'll force the government to do it.

Mrbogey		2012-12-11 11:38:20 AM

Mentat: As usual, it will be the Democrats who are left to clean up the mess.

Out of curiosity, can you name some cities where Dems have cleaned it up?

Bloody William		2012-12-11 11:38:34 AM

Why is this called "right-to-work?" It sounds like the sickest twisting of words considering what it does.

ha-ha-guy		2012-12-11 11:40:09 AM

Mrbogey: Mentat: As usual, it will be the Democrats who are left to clean up the mess.

Out of curiosity, can you name some cities where Dems have cleaned it up?

Austin, Seattle, and Denver come to mind. Ann Arbor is also a technically a city, although a tiny ass one.

cram_hole		2012-12-11 11:41:23 AM

Did anyone else read that "Muslims and Jews breaking bad"? I thought maybe with RTW passed they're going to start cooking meth. Oh wait, it's Michigan, they already do.

oldfarthenry		2012-12-11 11:42:05 AM

Silly 'merikuh! You can't go back on the teat of slave-labour years after you weaned off of it.

Cythraul		2012-12-11 11:42:22 AM

Dusk-You-n-Me: From 1973 to 2007, private sector union membership in the United States declined from 34 to 8 percent for men and from 16 to 6 percent for women. During this period, inequality in hourly wages increased by over 40 percent. We report a decomposition, relating rising inequality to the union wage distribution's shrinking weight. We argue that unions helped institutionalize norms of equity, reducing the dispersion of nonunion wages in highly unionized regions and industries. Accounting for unions' effect on union and nonunion wages suggests that the decline of organized labor explains a fifth to a third of the growth in inequality-an effect comparable to the growing stratification of wages by education. Link

Deny the private sector (unions) the ability to reduce income inequality and you'll force the government to do it.

That might be a good thing.

jst3p		2012-12-11 11:43:01 AM

SN1987a goes boom		2012-12-11 11:43:01 AM

Bloody William: Why is this called "right-to-work?" It sounds like the sickest twisting of words considering what it does.

Because conservatives are master con-artists? Example: calling themselves "pro-life" as if anyone was "anti-life" other Darkseid from Superman.

amiable		2012-12-11 11:43:09 AM

Leeds: qorkfiend: Maybe if they hadn't tried to ram it through in a lame-duck session, Michigan Democrats and the unions wouldn't be so upset.

Why is it that whenever the Republicans do stuff like this, they have to resort to legislative trickery, suppression of opposition, and lame-duck sessions to get it done?

And you think that this is a republican thing?

Obamacare for the win.

Uh.. obama ran on implementing Obamacare, there was absolutely zero surprises/chicanery here. he went out of his way to incorporate Republican ideas in his plan.

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