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(ABC)   Fundamental Christian nutjob claims to have evidence that Noah's biblical flood actually happened. Sorry, did I say "fundamental Christian nutjob"? I meant "acclaimed maritime archaeologist"   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 148
    More: Interesting, Bibles, shipwrecks, Noah's Ark, Christiane Amanpour, submersibles, carbon datings, meltwaters, traumatic event  
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5828 clicks; posted to Geek » on 10 Dec 2012 at 8:37 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-11 12:00:08 AM  

Flappyhead: vharshyde: Let's look at the physics, shall we? In order for a flood to occur, water has to come from one place and be distributed to another place. So let's look at this.

9 inches/hr is one of the highest rainfall records I've seen thus far. So let's do the math. Over a 40 day period at 24 hours per day(40 days and 40 nights, as they say), that leaves a total deposit of 720 feet. Not a small number, but wait, there's more. That comes down to about .13 miles in depth. Which is still pretty nasty. However, for that to be global, here's what that would come out to.

The total landmass of earth = 57,308,738 square miles...
Total depth of water = .13 miles...
Assuming a flat earth(To give us a much better round-down, so this number should be MUCH higher, but I'm too lazy to do spherical volumes here), it would leave us with roughly 7.8 million cubic miles of water.

So let's break that down into gallons.

One gallon of water is roughly 7.48 cubic feet.
The total cubic miles listed above gives us... 1,148,144,025,600 cubic feet of water.
Which would translate to roughly 153,495,190,588 Gallons of water. Which I would estimate that in order to create that volume of clouds(Constant, as well), which would require direct sunlight on every major water source, and only clouds over every land mass for a 40 day period, would require a very sudden rise in energy as received by the surface of the planet, on ALL sides, a shifting of major wind channels and currents, and the like. Which wouldn't work out so well for the science of it all.

But that number above... Just above a tenth of a mile in depth... That should have some level of significance, shouldn't it?

There's also the teensy problem of increased air pressure, which would have popped Noah and his clan like water balloons.


And even if you assume rainfall was DOUBLE that record over those 40 days, that's 1440 feet. Still a decent flood, but nowhere near Mt. Ararat's peak of 16,854 feet, much less Everest's 29,029 feet. Ten times the record rainfall -- 90 inches per hour, the water level increasing by seven and a half feet per hour (one and a half inches per MINUTE) -- would raise sea level by 7,200 feet. Amazingly incredible, but still over 1,200 feet shy of Ararat's halfway point and less than a quarter of the way up Everest.

I'm not even gonna get into the number crunching of how many millions of cubic miles of water that is, much less the physics of the energy needed to convert that much water vapor into liquid water at a constant rate over a 960-hour period without freezing, broiling, popping like a water balloon, vaporizing or otherwise harming Noah, his family or their menagerie.


Waldo Pepper: so you are saying your figures apply to God and because your figures say it doesn't add up then God must not be able to make it happen?


Would you accept "A wizard did it" as an explanation for how an elderly shepherd, his wife, their three sons, the son's wives and enough animals to fill a wooden ship as long, tall and half as wide as a football stadium (built entirely by the shepherd and his sons) could survive nearly six weeks of constant rain pouring from the sky at hundreds or even thousands of gallons per minute?

Would you accept "Allah did it," "Poseidon did it," "The Doctor did it," "Sheogorath did it" or "Yukari did it" as an explanation for how a 450-foot-long ship made entirely out of un-reinforced wood lasted over a month in open waters without capsizing?

If not, then why accept "God did it" as a valid explanation?
 
2012-12-11 12:08:04 AM  
Acclaimed maritime archeologists can also be fundamentalist christian nutjobs. There is no reason for you, Subby, or anyone else to consider the two titles mutually exclusive.
 
2012-12-11 12:12:07 AM  
Interestingly enough, the bible contains two versions of the flood story, written by two different authors with dramatically different writing styles. While they are clearly telling the same story, several significant details are different. (wall of text to come)
 
2012-12-11 12:12:46 AM  
Version 1:

After Noah was five hundred years old, Noah became the father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

When people began to multiply on the face of the ground, and daughters were born to them,the sons of God saw that they were fair; and they took wives for themselves of all that they chose. Then the LORD said, "My spirit shall not abide in mortals forever, for they are flesh; their days shall be one hundred twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-- and also afterward-- when the sons of God went in to the daughters of humans, who bore children to them. These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown.

The LORD saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the LORD said, "I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created-- people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found favor in the sight of the LORD.

Then the LORD said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and all your household, for I have seen that you alone are righteous before me in this generation. Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and its mate; and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and its mate; and seven pairs of the birds of the air also, male and female, to keep their kind alive on the face of all the earth. For in seven days I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground." And Noah did all that the LORD had commanded him.

And Noah with his sons and his wife and his sons' wives went into the ark to escape the waters of the flood. Pairs Of clean animals, and of animals that are not clean, and of birds, and of everything that creeps on the ground, two and two, male and female, went into the ark with Noah, as God had commanded Noah. And after seven days the waters of the flood came on the earth. The rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.and the LORD shut him in and the waters increased, and bore up the ark, and it rose high above the earth. everything on dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. He blotted out every living thing that was on the face of the ground, human beings and animals and creeping things and birds of the air; they were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those that were with him in the ark. the rain from the heavens was restrained, and the waters gradually receded from the earth At the end of forty days Noah opened the window of the ark that he had made Then he sent out the dove from him, to see if the waters had subsided from the face of the ground; but the dove found no place to set its foot, and it returned to him to the ark, for the waters were still on the face of the whole earth. So he put out his hand and took it and brought it into the ark with him. He waited another seven days, and again he sent out the dove from the ark; and the dove came back to him in the evening, and there in its beak was a freshly plucked olive leaf; so Noah knew that the waters had subsided from the earth. Then he waited another seven days, and sent out the dove; and it did not return to him any more. and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and saw that the face of the ground was drying. Then Noah built an altar to the LORD, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And when the LORD smelled the pleasing odor, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of humankind, for the inclination of the human heart is evil from youth; nor will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.
As long as the earth endures, seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, summer and winter, day and night, shall not cease."
 
2012-12-11 12:13:24 AM  
Version 2:

Version 2:

These are the descendants of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God. And Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw that the earth was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon the earth. And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence because of them; now I am going to destroy them along with the earth. Make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch. This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above; and put the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks. For my part, I am going to bring a flood of waters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die. But I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. And of every living thing, of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground according to its kind, two of every kind shall come in to you, to keep them alive. Also take with you every kind of food that is eaten, and store it up; and it shall serve as food for you and for them." Noah did this; he did all that God commanded him. Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters came on the earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. On the very same day Noah with his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah's wife and the three wives of his sons entered the ark, they and every wild animal of every kind, and all domestic animals of every kind, and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth, and every bird of every kind-- every bird, every winged creature. They went into the ark with Noah, two and two of all flesh in which there was the breath of life. And those that entered, male and female of all flesh, went in as God had commanded him. The flood continued forty days on the earth The waters swelled and increased greatly on the earth; and the ark floated on the face of the waters. The waters swelled so mightily on the earth that all the high mountains under the whole heaven were covered; the waters swelled above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep. And all flesh died that moved on the earth, birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all swarming creatures that swarm on the earth, and all human beings; And the waters swelled on the earth for one hundred fifty days. But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and all the domestic animals that were with him in the ark. And God made a wind blow over the earth, and the waters subsided; the fountains of the deep and the windows of the heavens were closed, At the end of one hundred fifty days the waters had abated; and in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. The waters continued to abate until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains appeared. [Noah]sent out the raven; and it went to and fro until the waters were dried up from the earth. In the six hundred first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from the earth. In the second month, on the twenty-seventh day of the month, the earth was dry. Then God said to Noah, "Go out of the ark, you and your wife, and your sons and your sons' wives with you. Bring out with you every living thing that is with you of all flesh-- birds and animals and every creeping thing that creeps on the earth-- so that they may abound on the earth, and be fruitful and multiply on the earth." So Noah went out with his sons and his wife and his sons' wives. And every animal, every creeping thing, and every bird, everything that moves on the earth, went out of the ark by families. God blessed Noah and his sons, and said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth. The fear and dread of you shall rest on every animal of the earth, and on every bird of the air, on everything that creeps on the ground, and on all the fish of the sea; into your hand they are delivered. Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you; and just as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything. Only, you shall not eat flesh with its life, that is, its blood. For your own lifeblood I will surely require a reckoning: from every animal I will require it and from human beings, each one for the blood of another, I will require a reckoning for human life.
 
2012-12-11 12:18:36 AM  

Hollie Maea: (wall of text to come)


After you paste...did you know that you can still make your own paragraphs?
Give it a try next time.
 
2012-12-11 12:24:04 AM  
The Bible mentions Caesar too. Can't have 100% made-up nonsense in a book you want people to believe is true. Did a flood happen? Probably. Did a "global flood" happen where a 600 year old guy built a big as boat and put 2 of every animal on it? No.
 
2012-12-11 12:29:43 AM  
ABC News: BIBLE IS REAL STORIES!
Noted Archaeologist: Floods in the area may have inspired the legend of Noah's biblical flood.

My 2¢: when you live in a 15km radius for your entire prehistory life, any serious flood is going to seem like the end of the world.
 
2012-12-11 12:34:05 AM  
Why is Bob Ballard such a good candidate to look into this?

He knows NOAA personally
 
2012-12-11 01:01:27 AM  
i'm pretty sure there's a book already about this called Noah's Flood. Also pretty sure I own it.

http://www.amazon.com/Noahs-Flood-Scientific-Discoveries-Changed/dp/0 6 84859203

Yup. Published in 2000.
 
2012-12-11 01:10:45 AM  

0Icky0: Hollie Maea: (wall of text to come)

After you paste...did you know that you can still make your own paragraphs?
Give it a try next time.


I didn't have a lot of time. And honestly it doesn't hurt anything.
 
2012-12-11 01:21:30 AM  

Britney Spear's Speculum: The Bible mentions Caesar too. Can't have 100% made-up nonsense in a book you want people to believe is true. Did a flood happen? Probably. Did a "global flood" happen where a 600 year old guy built a big as boat and put 2 of every animal on it? No.


Oh, the "two of every creature" tidbit. I forgot to deconstruct that part. (Please note that this is not directed at you in particular, Speculum -- I'm just exposing the Flood Myth as a myth.)

In order for penguins, elephants, poison dart frogs, møøse, honey badgers, polar bears, panda bears, panthers, ocelots, Iriomote cats, Gila monsters, Komodo dragons, Galapagos tortoises, Tasmanian devils and duck-billed platypi to have survived the Flood, they must have first been herded onto the Ark. Those animals are generally not found in the Middle East, nor is there much record of them in any historical documents from the region.

Then there's the issue of not only getting the animals on board, but also 40 days' worth of food for the animals -- some of whom have diets consisting entirely of other animals (the zoologist who came up with the name for the anteater was probably not engaging in an April Fool's prank at the time). Not to mention the honey badgers would have snatched other animals' food straight out of their mouths, eaten the food in front of them, and then killed and eaten the other animals.

And once the food issue is resolved, there's the issue of waste management. Indoor plumbing had yet to make it to the drawing board at the time of the Flood, much less onto seafaring vessels. The aroma in that indoor petting zoo would very likely have been less than pleasant.

And after all that is settled, and the waters receded (where to?) and the Ark finally made landfall, it was time to send the animals home -- but how? How did the one male and one female platypus make it from Mount Ararat to Australia? How'd the Tasmanian devils go past the Australian mainland to Tasmania? By what means did the poison dart frogs get from Turkey to Bolivia? Did the panthers and ocelots swim to Mexico? What about the møøse, how long did it take for them to walk to Sweden? Iriomote-jima is an island slightly larger than Brooklyn, about a hundred miles east of Taiwan -- must have been all sorts of fun for the two Iriomote cats to travel across Persia, India and China to get to a coastline several hundred miles of ocean away from their home, though they probably rode atop the Komodo dragons or the pandas most of the way. The Gila monsters were somewhat less fortunate on their trek to Arizona -- though they would have found the trip across the Sahara desert enjoyable, they would have found the trip across the Atlantic Ocean, the Everglades, the Mississippi bayou and the river basins of eastern and central Texas slightly-less-than-enjoyable.

The honey badgers would have hitched a ride to southern Africa with the elephants, and then killed and eaten the elephants before they had a chance to repopulate the region -- a task which would have involved quite a bit of inbreeding.
 
2012-12-11 01:45:31 AM  

Magorn: "based on real events" is not the same as "actually happened"

Ballard has mor eor less conclusively proved there was a catastrophic flood that brought the water of the Med into the black sea. The Black Sea's unusual composition, salt water on top, fresh water farther down really can't be easily explained any other way. Morevover, I personally believe that the reason almost every culture on earth has a "flood story" is because there WERE catastrophic global floods all over the world, just not all at once the way the bible tells it. Go look at a map of Ice Age Europe and then look at it again after the glaciers melted. The English channel, for example used to be a land bridge. Futher We know people lived on that land bridge becuase, just like Ballard did in the Black Sea, we've found evidence of villages and human habitations at the bottom of the channel. So yeah, since people do tend to live near the water (look at a poulation map of the world even today) and the water levels dramatically rose over a few hundred year stretch. I have no doubt it was traumatic experience for nearly every human on earth and was enshrined in all sorts of story-telling traditions


The fact that "the Flood" shows up in all sorts of traditions proves to a fundamentalist friend of mine that the Bible must be true, because so much of it is corroborated. He can never explain how it's the other things corroborating the Bible and not vice-versa, though...
 
2012-12-11 01:47:25 AM  

Hollie Maea: Waldo Pepper: it is amazing for a bunch of folks who don't believe in God and the Bible just how much time is spent whining about it.

The most powerful country on earth bases most of its laws on interpretations of the bible. So yeah it affect people.


chinas laws are based on the bible?
 
2012-12-11 01:54:53 AM  

vharshyde: Let's look at the physics, shall we? In order for a flood to occur, water has to come from one place and be distributed to another place. So let's look at this.

9 inches/hr is one of the highest rainfall records I've seen thus far. So let's do the math. Over a 40 day period at 24 hours per day(40 days and 40 nights, as they say), that leaves a total deposit of 720 feet. Not a small number, but wait, there's more. That comes down to about .13 miles in depth. Which is still pretty nasty. However, for that to be global, here's what that would come out to.

The total landmass of earth = 57,308,738 square miles...
Total depth of water = .13 miles...
Assuming a flat earth(To give us a much better round-down, so this number should be MUCH higher, but I'm too lazy to do spherical volumes here), it would leave us with roughly 7.8 million cubic miles of water.

So let's break that down into gallons.

One gallon of water is roughly 7.48 cubic feet.
The total cubic miles listed above gives us... 1,148,144,025,600 cubic feet of water.
Which would translate to roughly 153,495,190,588 Gallons of water. Which I would estimate that in order to create that volume of clouds(Constant, as well), which would require direct sunlight on every major water source, and only clouds over every land mass for a 40 day period, would require a very sudden rise in energy as received by the surface of the planet, on ALL sides, a shifting of major wind channels and currents, and the like. Which wouldn't work out so well for the science of it all.

But that number above... Just above a tenth of a mile in depth... That should have some level of significance, shouldn't it?

A few problems here. First off, the book mentions the Mountains of Ararat. However, these mountains are in entirely the wrong geographic direction from the supposed launch point, so that's done with(Raleigh went into this). In fact, Raleigh contended that the mountains in question must have been the taller peaks out towards Asia. And ...


duh.. when god relented and let the waters part, theland sprung back from all the weight now taken off and world actually grew in size

compression biatch..do you speak it?
 
2012-12-11 02:58:56 AM  

Magorn: "based on real events" is not the same as "actually happened"

Ballard has mor eor less conclusively proved there was a catastrophic flood that brought the water of the Med into the black sea. The Black Sea's unusual composition, salt water on top, fresh water farther down really can't be easily explained any other way. Morevover, I personally believe that the reason almost every culture on earth has a "flood story" is because there WERE catastrophic global floods all over the world, just not all at once the way the bible tells it. Go look at a map of Ice Age Europe and then look at it again after the glaciers melted. The English channel, for example used to be a land bridge. Futher We know people lived on that land bridge becuase, just like Ballard did in the Black Sea, we've found evidence of villages and human habitations at the bottom of the channel. So yeah, since people do tend to live near the water (look at a poulation map of the world even today) and the water levels dramatically rose over a few hundred year stretch. I have no doubt it was traumatic experience for nearly every human on earth and was enshrined in all sorts of story-telling traditions


I've heard a theory proposed about glacial lakes. So you've got a mile high glacier, but it's melting on the inside and forming this big-damn lake, possible larger than the great lakes. It's surface is a MILE above the land. At some point the glacier dam breaks and the water pours out in a mile high fresh water flood.
 
2012-12-11 03:02:43 AM  

BKITU: trivial use of my dark powers: Ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght.

What's a cubit?

/vwoopa, vwoopa, vwoopa....


"I'm gonna make it rain for a hundred days and nights!"

"Uh, Lord, why not just 40 days and nights and wait for the sewers to back up?"

"Ri-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ght."
 
2012-12-11 06:10:10 AM  
These were back to back posts (bold for emphasis). Intentional troll on Waldo Pepper's part? Poe's law in action? We may never know.

Lionel Mandrake: vharshyde: (bunch of fancy libtard blasphemy)

Burn in Hell, heathen.

www.lookingforpurpose.com

You can't argue with that. Don't even try.


Waldo Pepper: so you are saying your figures apply to God and because your figures say it doesn't add up then God must not be able to make it happen?

 

I believe X because I have faith is a meaningless argument because it can be applied to anything.
 
2012-12-11 06:36:08 AM  
Posting before reading comments as I haven't yet added the dash of gin to my tea which would up my patience threshold, and I'm sure it's already been covered but what the hell....

Nobody is disputing that there was, or at least may certainly very well have been a local massive flood in the Middle East around the time that the Biblical story is said to have happened. In fact, It's highly likely that there was given that's how legends and myths start. However, having some basis in historical truth does not automatically mean that the mythologised version of events happened exactly as described.
Biblical literalists claiming that the whole world was covered in water because the Bible says so seem to forget that after the flood the Bible says that the whole world was completely dry.

I'll go get that dash of gin and read the thread now.....
 
2012-12-11 07:00:24 AM  

Rent Party: Magorn: "based on real events" is not the same as "actually happened"

Ballard has mor eor less conclusively proved there was a catastrophic flood that brought the water of the Med into the black sea. The Black Sea's unusual composition, salt water on top, fresh water farther down really can't be easily explained any other way. Morevover, I personally believe that the reason almost every culture on earth has a "flood story" is because there WERE catastrophic global floods all over the world, just not all at once the way the bible tells it. Go look at a map of Ice Age Europe and then look at it again after the glaciers melted. The English channel, for example used to be a land bridge. Futher We know people lived on that land bridge becuase, just like Ballard did in the Black Sea, we've found evidence of villages and human habitations at the bottom of the channel. So yeah, since people do tend to live near the water (look at a poulation map of the world even today) and the water levels dramatically rose over a few hundred year stretch. I have no doubt it was traumatic experience for nearly every human on earth and was enshrined in all sorts of story-telling traditions

[geocurrents.info image 450x300]

The largest waterfall ever to have existed came over this ledge. The Missoula floods would have been awesome to behold.

And yet, no one calls them "global." Because, you know, they were "regional."


it was just a reporting incident... the geoglobal weather satellites of Noah's time reported it as global when in fact it was regional...
 
2012-12-11 07:11:41 AM  
Many people forget that 2000 years ago 'global' meant 'as far as the two neighboring villages'.
 
2012-12-11 08:09:41 AM  
Now this really pisses me off. I have a bachelors in Historical Anthropology and let me let you in on a little secret that we in the archaeological community have known since the 20's. Biblical "Archaeology" has absolutely no basis in reality. Its a bunch of true believers trying to prove that their religion and by extension their god is real. Not for nothing but Bob Ballard, Simcha Jocobovici, Jim Cameron and the other dumbasses who try to "prove" this nonsense are not in fact archaeologists.Their opinions, assertions and conclusions have no more validity or credibility than the average layman. Bob Ballard has a degree in Marine Biology, Jim Cameron's is in film and Simcha Jocobovici's is in Journalism. These idiot shills know little more than you can pick up watching the History channel. If these guys had discovered anything worth mentioning why have none received honorary doctorates in Anthropology? (standard practice when a non-vocational archaeologist makes a discovery of any, and I mean any importance) They don't and they never will because things like the John ossuary, the biblical flood and the resting place of Jesus are either fakes or sensationalized to the point of invalidity, as is the case here. But then again the goal of these people is not to uncover truth or fact but to get fat christian hausfraus to tune in to their latest 44 minute infomercial for stupidity.
 
2012-12-11 08:38:04 AM  

King Something: In order for penguins, elephants, poison dart frogs, møøse, honey badgers, polar bears, panda bears, panthers, ocelots, Iriomote cats, Gila monsters, Komodo dragons, Galapagos tortoises, Tasmanian devils and duck-billed platypi to have survived the Flood, they must have first been herded onto the Ark. Those animals are generally not found in the Middle East, nor is there much record of them in any historical documents from the region.


Honey Badger can't be found in the Middle East? Honey Badger don't care. Honey badger don't give a shiat.
 
2012-12-11 09:08:41 AM  
According to a controversial theory proposed by two Columbia University scientists, there really was one in the Black Sea region. They believe that the now-salty Black Sea was once an isolated freshwater lake surrounded by farmland, until it was flooded by an enormous wall of water from the rising Mediterranean Sea. The force of the water was two hundred times that of Niagara Falls, sweeping away everything in its path.

Fascinated by the idea, Ballard and his team decided to investigate.

"We went in there to look for the flood," he said. "Not just a slow moving, advancing rise of sea level, but a really big flood that then stayed... The land that went under stayed under."

Four hundred feet below the surface, they unearthed an ancient shoreline, proof to Ballard that a catastrophic event did happen in the Black Sea. By carbon dating shells found along the shoreline, Ballard said he believes they have established a timeline for that catastrophic event, which he estimates happened around 5,000 BC. Some experts believe this was around the time when Noah's flood could have occurred.


So, other than the flood being local to the Black Sea as opposed to the ENTIRE PLANET, the account is accurate.

Strangely though, God promises Noah that he won't use such a flood again (and gives us the rainbow as proof of his commitment), yet we still see terrible, localized floods several times a year.

So, if we take this story as proof that the Bible's account is correct, it also means that God is a liar.

Good job, subby.
 
2012-12-11 09:37:43 AM  

bookman: Magorn: "based on real events" is not the same as "actually happened"

Ballard has mor eor less conclusively proved there was a catastrophic flood that brought the water of the Med into the black sea. The Black Sea's unusual composition, salt water on top, fresh water farther down really can't be easily explained any other way. Morevover, I personally believe that the reason almost every culture on earth has a "flood story" is because there WERE catastrophic global floods all over the world, just not all at once the way the bible tells it. Go look at a map of Ice Age Europe and then look at it again after the glaciers melted. The English channel, for example used to be a land bridge. Futher We know people lived on that land bridge becuase, just like Ballard did in the Black Sea, we've found evidence of villages and human habitations at the bottom of the channel. So yeah, since people do tend to live near the water (look at a poulation map of the world even today) and the water levels dramatically rose over a few hundred year stretch. I have no doubt it was traumatic experience for nearly every human on earth and was enshrined in all sorts of story-telling traditions

I've heard a theory proposed about glacial lakes. So you've got a mile high glacier, but it's melting on the inside and forming this big-damn lake, possible larger than the great lakes. It's surface is a MILE above the land. At some point the glacier dam breaks and the water pours out in a mile high fresh water flood.


I do believe the massive ancient floods in the Pacific Northwest were related to a glacial lake related event. Might have been the English channel as well (or ice damn?).

Anyway, that would've been a farking sight to behold. So long as you didn't die.
 
2012-12-11 10:30:15 AM  
"The questions is, was there a mother of all floods,"

One good one would be the formation of the mediterranean. Another good one was at the end of the last ice age there was a HUGE flood in the north sea (which made a fair amount of the english channel) when an ice wall broke (you can see the water channels on google earth). It would be about the right time to enter folklore and be part of the bible as ancient `history`

Of course both of these are well known about already...
 
2012-12-11 10:46:14 AM  
what's the big whoop?

i'm pretty sure that most stories in most texts that are finally recorded after a long period of oral history are based on real history.

for example, there was a trojan war, even though the poem was only recorded 700 years later and it certainly exaggerated stuff.

for example, there's a lot of support to the notion the Odysseus actually went on a wild journey, (the lotus eaters where poppy growers in the middle east, the cyclops was actually just a tall guy missing an eye, etc.) there are descriptions that sailors have come to conclude where the journey may have gone. and then 700 years of oral tradition mucks the story up and there is some exaggerated stuff.

for example, a lot of the history in beowulf is corroborated (when it comes to names of kings, etc. not that part of the story that deals with grendel, the dragon, or beowulf) and those histories occurred 400-600 years before being recorded. so well recorded, shakespeare even based hamlet off of heremode, who was an actual king mentioned in beowulf (he was the first one with the pendant that caused all the trouble... likely the same 'ring' myth that hit all the other germanic texts and wagner and tolkien)

now, the old testament was an oral tradition for centuries before being recorded. so, there was a flood story. then it became a global flood story... then, poof, it becomes the version that got recorded.

with centuries of oral tradition, recorded during great political upheaval, there are going to be some anomalies. not to mention, it's the old testament. people should spend more time reading the new testament (except revelations, that should never have been canonized -- read that like a gnostic text, goofy ass shiat that's interesting historically, not dogmatically).
 
2012-12-11 10:58:19 AM  
When I was a kid, a serial killer broke into my house and murdered my entire family with an axe. He got away.

Now, at random times throughout the year, he sends me postcards.

the postcards say "Next time I won't use an axe."


And that's how I feel about rainbows.
 
2012-12-11 11:05:22 AM  

Magorn: there WERE catastrophic global floods all over the world, just not all at once the way the bible tells it.


Sort of, like the "Global" wildfires we have every year during the different summers around the world...

media.tumblr.com
 
2012-12-11 11:12:12 AM  

Waldo Pepper: Lionel Mandrake: Waldo Pepper: it is amazing for a bunch of folks who don't believe in God and the Bible just how much time is spent whining about it.

Not really...it is amazing how so many people who think it's the divine word of God know absolutely nothing about it, but still believe it over science.

my statement is about non believing farkers spending so much time and effort whining about God and the Bible. I have no belief in aliens from other planets, astrology etc, etc and I spend zero of my time whining about these beliefs


So you only spend time whining about what others believe. Got it.
 
2012-12-11 12:52:05 PM  

fusillade762: The sheer air pressure from that much water in the atmosphere would turn every creature on Earth into a fine paste.


You know how I know you don't follow current Worldwide Flood Apologists? It wasn't just the rain coming down, but the "fountains of the deep" too. Perfectly plausible that a cataclysmic event ruptured aquifers below and that too induced rapid flooding all over. Boom, science
 
2012-12-11 01:10:28 PM  

king of vegas: Explain this to me...

God is angry at humanity and decides it needs to be reset or something like that...

So he tells the only righteous people on the planet how to save themselves and the animals...

Then he drowns all the other people in the world to death (fun way to die) and I guess they all go to hell right?

But here's the thing... he sends a rainbow as a sign that he will never do that to mankind again...

so...

Was he wrong to do that? Should he not have done that?

If he promises to never do it again, then he implies that it was a bad thing to do. If it was a proper or good thing to do, then why not reserve the right to do it again?

It's almost as if it doesn't make any sense at all.


Read you Bible. The context of that "never again" was that God will never again bring judgement upon the earth with water. Instead, the final judgement will be flame/fire. Rampant evil cannot and will not be tolerated. The precedent has been set that the willful disregard of God will result in punishment. What you see through the Bible is the redemption story.

The penalty for sin is death, but...there is always a chance to be redeemed from you sins. The fall of Adam and Eve in the garden meant death officially entered the world, but redemption though the promise of a savior to "crush" the head of Satan. The world grew more and more wicked in Noah's day, but redemption came through sparing the one righteous man (whom through his sons would create all the great nations...). The times of the Judges were a perfect microcosm of showing God's love in the midst of punishment for turning from him. The great kings of Israel and Judah were the same way. This endless cycle comes to a head with the coming of Jesus as the redeemer for all the world's sins. From here on, there is no need for a picture of redemption to spring from the ashes of destruction, for the picture of redemption already came in Jesus. The final worldwide punishment for sin, detailed in Revelation will be the second and last time God brings down the hammer on sin.

To answer you, God never said destroying to purge sin was a "bad" or "good" thing to do. He is the Light, sinful ways are the darkness. When you turn the light on, darkness naturally flees from it. God and darkness simply cannot cohabit. But rather than take that at its base value and saying God is capricious and callous, simply destroying at whim. The promise is important! It shows that He actually cares about the affairs of men, is active in our world, and wants what is best for us. Had there been no rainbow, or boon, Noah probably would be left scratching his head, wondering what it all was for.
 
2012-12-11 01:11:29 PM  
My problem with this:

www.lookingforpurpose.com

Is that you have no way to prove that the Bible is God's word. In fact, the evidence is pretty strong that it's the ramblings of several different men who only claimed to be talking to God.

Well, here's what's wrong with that: There's a guy in my town. A huffer. He talks to God, too.

So what you're really telling me is that if someone says "God said it" then you refuse to doubt it, and that means you're going to be doing what people who were probably totally stoned (and/or lying) said to do. That seems like poor judgment to me. It seems to lack wisdom.

How do you determine what God said? I say that you really can't know whether or not the words of prophets and saints and Biblical authors is to be trusted, and that the claim that "God said so" isn't really a lot to go on.
 
2012-12-11 01:21:24 PM  
An archaeologist has found evidence of a great flood, as described in the Bible. Therefore, the Bible is literally true and everyone should worship the Christian God.

An archaeologist has found evidence of Troy, as described in the Iliad. Therefore, the Iliad is literally true, and everyone should worship the gods of the ancient Greek pantheon.
 
2012-12-11 01:42:00 PM  

Hollie Maea: Version 2:

Version 2:

These are the descendants of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation; Noah walked with God. And Noah had three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

Now the earth was corrupt in God's sight, and the earth was filled with violence. And God saw that the earth was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted its ways upon the earth. And God said to Noah, "I have determined to make an end of all flesh, for the earth is filled with violence because of them; now I am going to destroy them along with the earth. Make yourself an ark of cypress wood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and out with pitch. This is how you are to make it: the length of the ark three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. Make a roof for the ark, and finish it to a cubit above; and put the door of the ark in its side; make it with lower, second, and third decks. For my part, I am going to bring a flood of waters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die. But I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you. And of every living thing, of all flesh, you shall bring two of every kind into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Of the birds according to their kinds, and of the animals according to their kinds, of every creeping thing of the ground according to its kind, two of every kind shall come in to you, to keep them alive. Also take with you every kind of food that is eaten, and store it up; and it shall serve as food for you and for them." Noah did this; he did all that God commanded him. Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters came on the earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and ...


Could we get a summary of the differences? Thanks.
 
2012-12-11 01:54:30 PM  
Pretty sure it has been accepted for quite some time that the flood did occur.

Probably wasn't actually worldwide, but rather limited to the Mediterranean and Middle East.
 
2012-12-11 02:12:06 PM  

0Icky0: King Something: In order for penguins, elephants, poison dart frogs, møøse, honey badgers, polar bears, panda bears, panthers, ocelots, Iriomote cats, Gila monsters, Komodo dragons, Galapagos tortoises, Tasmanian devils and duck-billed platypi to have survived the Flood, they must have first been herded onto the Ark. Those animals are generally not found in the Middle East, nor is there much record of them in any historical documents from the region.

Honey Badger can't be found in the Middle East? Honey Badger don't care. Honey badger don't give a shiat.


I read "poison frog darts" as "poison dog farts".
 
2012-12-11 02:13:24 PM  

Le Grand Inquisitor: The times of the Judges were a perfect microcosm of showing God's love in the midst of punishment for turning from him.


"He only hits me because he loves me."

"Baby, how come you gotta me me hit you? You know I love you."

He is the Light, sinful ways are the darkness. When you turn the light on, darkness naturally flees from it. God and darkness simply cannot cohabit.

Getting rid of darkness will really screw up circadian rhythms, not to mention killing visible-spectrum astronomy. Let's not get started on the accelerated climate change if there's no nocturnal cooling period...
 
2012-12-11 06:39:01 PM  

Magorn: "based on real events" is not the same as "actually happened"

Ballard has mor eor less conclusively proved there was a catastrophic flood that brought the water of the Med into the black sea. The Black Sea's unusual composition, salt water on top, fresh water farther down really can't be easily explained any other way. Morevover, I personally believe that the reason almost every culture on earth has a "flood story" is because there WERE catastrophic global floods all over the world, just not all at once the way the bible tells it. Go look at a map of Ice Age Europe and then look at it again after the glaciers melted. The English channel, for example used to be a land bridge. Futher We know people lived on that land bridge becuase, just like Ballard did in the Black Sea, we've found evidence of villages and human habitations at the bottom of the channel. So yeah, since people do tend to live near the water (look at a poulation map of the world even today) and the water levels dramatically rose over a few hundred year stretch. I have no doubt it was traumatic experience for nearly every human on earth and was enshrined in all sorts of story-telling traditions


Umm, or maybe something like happened in Japan? People seem to rule out other obvious methods of moving massive amounts of water. And stories do become quite embellished as they are told over and over. Once they are eventually written down that seems to slow/stop.
 
2012-12-11 06:52:36 PM  

Waldo Pepper: Lionel Mandrake: Waldo Pepper: it is amazing for a bunch of folks who don't believe in God and the Bible just how much time is spent whining about it.

Not really...it is amazing how so many people who think it's the divine word of God know absolutely nothing about it, but still believe it over science.

my statement is about non believing farkers spending so much time and effort whining about God and the Bible. I have no belief in aliens from other planets, astrology etc, etc and I spend zero of my time whining about these beliefs


Well of course. You are 100% right. There is no reason for you to use your brain ever again. All answers are "Because god ________". Simple minds tend to flock to religion since they cannot understand otherwise.
 
2012-12-11 06:58:59 PM  

Reverend Monkeypants: When a big ass glacial lake busts out, people notice


Only if they are above sea level. And that is still localized.
 
2012-12-11 07:01:47 PM  

Waldo Pepper: Flappyhead: Waldo Pepper:
so you are saying your figures apply to God and because your figures say it doesn't add up then God must not be able to make it happen?

No, we're saying our figures apply to reality. Get back to me when God does. Better yet, don't get back to me at all, I have no time for circular arguments.

then why did you bother to post, was it to show off your math skills?


Because some people use something called logic. Most of them don't worship an invisible sky fairy who secretly hates groups of people and kills them but then says "Don't do the stuff I do but somehow live life in my image". The whole friggin book you gain your teaching from constantly contradicts itself. It is sort of like it is a bunch of different idea's written by different people then combined into one single book without any fact checking.
 
2012-12-11 07:30:59 PM  
I believe every word God has directly said to me (none so far). I do not believe the words written by a man who claims they are Gods words (lots).

Kazrath: Reverend Monkeypants: When a big ass glacial lake busts out, people notice

Only if they are above sea level. And that is still localized.


Aren`t most people and lakes above sea level?
 
2012-12-11 08:16:09 PM  

Bondith: Le Grand Inquisitor: The times of the Judges were a perfect microcosm of showing God's love in the midst of punishment for turning from him.

"He only hits me because he loves me."

"Baby, how come you gotta me me hit you? You know I love you."

He is the Light, sinful ways are the darkness. When you turn the light on, darkness naturally flees from it. God and darkness simply cannot cohabit.

Getting rid of darkness will really screw up circadian rhythms, not to mention killing visible-spectrum astronomy. Let's not get started on the accelerated climate change if there's no nocturnal cooling period...


Plus, God only has one sun. He'd need to have another...
 
2012-12-11 09:17:20 PM  
Was this the dry-cleaner in question?

alliandgenine.com

/hot like a schoolgirl at a Wham concert
 
2012-12-12 01:10:24 AM  
There was a flood several thousand years ago, therefore NOAH'S ARK IS REAL!!

/DNRTFA
 
2012-12-12 04:55:25 AM  
It's given that some of the events in the Bible did happen. The Flood, even the destruction of Sodam and Gomorrah have some basis in fact. But so does Atlantis. So does Dracula and Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter. The people who wrote it weren't closed off from history, most of them were scholars.

In a thousand years, someone will probably think Bruce Lee was a god because there are statues on nearly every continent. And they'll be right.
 
2012-12-12 08:09:41 AM  
Why not a fundie nutjob who somehow managed to become an acclaimed maritime archaeologist? Why not zoidberg?
 
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