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(Politico)   Fiscal cliff resolution: Democrats win on taxes. Republicans win on entitlements   (politico.com) divider line 169
    More: Dumbass, Democrats, Republicans win, Douglas Holtz-Eakin, Charlie Black, Alice Rivlin, block grants, Boehner, entitlements  
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4354 clicks; posted to Politics » on 10 Dec 2012 at 12:29 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-10 09:54:29 AM
Actually, that's not what the article says. The article is making the case that the Republicans are so desperate for a win that they'll spin the slightest concession the WH makes on Medicare or Social Security into a massive victory. Essentially, Republicans are willing to move the goalposts back the other way.
 
2012-12-10 10:01:35 AM
The GOP is going to continue losing until they remember that their job is to govern. Not to score points. It's not a football game. These are people's lives.

FTFA "It also may help Republicans that House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi has come out against raising the Medicare eligibility age, saying it wouldn't bring in enough savings and is "not even the right thing to do." What better way to claim victory if Obama actually gives them the age change that Pelosi didn't want?"
 
2012-12-10 10:26:41 AM
This could actually be possible if the GOP would give up on taxes. Boehner has absolutely refused anything of the sort, keeping them locked in decaying a negotiating position with no winning hand.
 
2012-12-10 10:42:40 AM

GAT_00: This could actually be possible if the GOP would give up on taxes. Boehner has absolutely refused anything of the sort, keeping them locked in decaying a negotiating position with no winning hand.


Do you really think so? I mean given that the things they are asking for wouldn't even make a dent in the deficit they claim to be so worried about? The problem is not just that they keep hammering away on tax cuts for the rich. Its that the "solutions" they offer aren't really solutions at all.

Putting aside for a moment the fallacy that Medicare is an entitlement. Just because most americans enjoy a longer life span doesn't mean that raising the medicare age will save money. Unless what you are trying to do is save money by shortening people's life spans by denying them medical care.

"Vote for the GOP we want to shorten your life span"
 
2012-12-10 10:55:09 AM
The problem I have here is that just about everyone in DC is misusing the word "entitlement". Yes, it's an entitlement, but not because we think we deserve it. It's an entitlement because we're owed the farking money that we paid into it.

No one is being a "taker" for asking for what is dutifully theirs to begin with.
 
2012-12-10 11:00:46 AM
Let's start by taking away the mortgage tax credit and 528 'entitlement'.
 
2012-12-10 11:02:37 AM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: The problem I have here is that just about everyone in DC is misusing the word "entitlement". Yes, it's an entitlement, but not because we think we deserve it. It's an entitlement because we're owed the farking money that we paid into it.

No one is being a "taker" for asking for what is dutifully theirs to begin with.


This. The correct term should be "non-discretionary social payments" or "obligatory social payments". Something like that.
 
2012-12-10 11:06:38 AM

hinten: Let's start by taking away the mortgage tax credit and 528 'entitlement'.


Start with letting the Bush tax cuts on the rich expire, then close the capital gains loophole on earnings over $250K, then consider closing the mortgage tax credit for the rich.

If you books still aren't balancing fast enough we can talk about closing loopholes for the average Americans. Until the wealth gap continues to expand, you should only be raising taxes on the rich.
 
2012-12-10 11:07:32 AM

mrshowrules: hinten: Let's start by taking away the mortgage tax credit and 528 'entitlement'.

Start with letting the Bush tax cuts on the rich expire, then close the capital gains loophole on earnings over $250K, then consider closing the mortgage tax credit for the rich.

If your books still aren't balancing fast enough we can talk about closing loopholes for the average Americans. While Until the wealth gap continues to expand, you should only be raising taxes on the rich.

 
2012-12-10 11:30:10 AM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: The problem I have here is that just about everyone in DC is misusing the word "entitlement". Yes, it's an entitlement, but not because we think we deserve it. It's an entitlement because we're owed the farking money that we paid into it.

No one is being a "taker" for asking for what is dutifully theirs to begin with.


So after I pay the cashier, my groceries are my entitlement? Sounds a bit plebian for such an aristocratic word.

Without it's current use, you'd think an entitlement would be say, never having to go to jail after crashing the banking system, or never having to pay the fine for the Exxon Valdez oilspill, or never facing manslaughter charges for the Deepwater Horizon disaster, but instead it means government services you get back in return for the taxes you pay.

Now if you wanted to use that word for political access, I could see that. After spending a few million on a Super-PAC you could be 'entitled' to write legislation for your Congressional Representative to submit.
 
2012-12-10 11:46:34 AM

Linoleum_Blownapart: Grand_Moff_Joseph: The problem I have here is that just about everyone in DC is misusing the word "entitlement". Yes, it's an entitlement, but not because we think we deserve it. It's an entitlement because we're owed the farking money that we paid into it.

No one is being a "taker" for asking for what is dutifully theirs to begin with.

So after I pay the cashier, my groceries are my entitlement? Sounds a bit plebian for such an aristocratic word.

Without it's current use, you'd think an entitlement would be say, never having to go to jail after crashing the banking system, or never having to pay the fine for the Exxon Valdez oilspill, or never facing manslaughter charges for the Deepwater Horizon disaster, but instead it means government services you get back in return for the taxes you pay.

Now if you wanted to use that word for political access, I could see that. After spending a few million on a Super-PAC you could be 'entitled' to write legislation for your Congressional Representative to submit.


When you receive what is owed to you, that is taking.

When you pay what you owe in taxes, that is Government theft.

Basically, Conservatives don't want any money to move around. All that shiat should be stored.
 
2012-12-10 11:54:02 AM

quickdraw: GAT_00: This could actually be possible if the GOP would give up on taxes. Boehner has absolutely refused anything of the sort, keeping them locked in decaying a negotiating position with no winning hand.

Do you really think so? I mean given that the things they are asking for wouldn't even make a dent in the deficit they claim to be so worried about? The problem is not just that they keep hammering away on tax cuts for the rich. Its that the "solutions" they offer aren't really solutions at all.

Putting aside for a moment the fallacy that Medicare is an entitlement. Just because most americans enjoy a longer life span doesn't mean that raising the medicare age will save money. Unless what you are trying to do is save money by shortening people's life spans by denying them medical care.

"Vote for the GOP we want to shorten your life span"


I think the Democrats are still pathetic enough that if the GOP agrees to only extending the Bush tax cuts without the top 2% cuts the Democrats will cave on everything else the GOP is demanding. I don't think they'd be able to competently negotiate if Boehner just let that bill through the House.
 
2012-12-10 12:24:22 PM

GAT_00: quickdraw: GAT_00: This could actually be possible if the GOP would give up on taxes. Boehner has absolutely refused anything of the sort, keeping them locked in decaying a negotiating position with no winning hand.

Do you really think so? I mean given that the things they are asking for wouldn't even make a dent in the deficit they claim to be so worried about? The problem is not just that they keep hammering away on tax cuts for the rich. Its that the "solutions" they offer aren't really solutions at all.

Putting aside for a moment the fallacy that Medicare is an entitlement. Just because most americans enjoy a longer life span doesn't mean that raising the medicare age will save money. Unless what you are trying to do is save money by shortening people's life spans by denying them medical care.

"Vote for the GOP we want to shorten your life span"

I think the Democrats are still pathetic enough that if the GOP agrees to only extending the Bush tax cuts without the top 2% cuts the Democrats will cave on everything else the GOP is demanding. I don't think they'd be able to competently negotiate if Boehner just let that bill through the House.


I think you are right. The only thing that will save the Dems is the tea party, they won't give in no matter what.
 
2012-12-10 12:30:52 PM

GAT_00: I think the Democrats are still pathetic enough that if the GOP agrees to only extending the Bush tax cuts without the top 2% cuts the Democrats will cave on everything else the GOP is demanding. I don't think they'd be able to competently negotiate if Boehner just let that bill through the House.


There is no arguing how pathetic the DNC has been for nearly a decade. However, there are whispers of backbone and tales of fortitude in the halls of power. Some day soon DNC politicians may even begin proposing Liberal solutions to America's problems.
 
2012-12-10 12:32:00 PM

RexTalionis: Actually, that's not what the article says. The article is making the case that the Republicans are so desperate for a win that they'll spin the slightest concession the WH
makes on Medicare or Social Security into a massive victory. Essentially, Republicans are willing to move the goalposts back the other way.



3.bp.blogspot.com
Some Farkers will post what are known as "trolling" headlines in order to increase their chances of being greenlit.
 
2012-12-10 12:33:05 PM
raise taxes on those making $100,000/500,000 a year, leave spending as is for now with a plan to make cuts once the economy is rolling again.

Fiscal cliff solved, make checks payable to skullkrusher
 
2012-12-10 12:33:10 PM

quickdraw: The GOP is going to continue losing until they remember that their job is to govern avoid being devoured alive by the rabid pack of bloodthirsty baboons they created as their "base".


FTFY
 
2012-12-10 12:34:42 PM
Romney really wants Medicare and Social Security to go private, where the corporation will do whatever it takes to make money...for themselves and their shareholders. Romney's whole career was based on 'screw the customer', I can only imagine what horrors he'd do to SS.
 
2012-12-10 12:35:23 PM
I intimated this in another thread: want to reform welfare? Make it so less people need welfare. Simple idea, complex execution.
 
2012-12-10 12:35:26 PM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Romney really wants Medicare and Social Security to go private, where the corporation will do whatever it takes to make money...for themselves and their shareholders. Romney's whole career was based on 'screw the customer', I can only imagine what horrors he'd do to SS.


good news is that what Romney wants doesn't matter anymore.
 
2012-12-10 12:36:21 PM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Romney really wants Medicare and Social Security to go private, where the corporation will do whatever it takes to make money...for themselves and their shareholders. Romney's whole career was based on 'screw the customer', I can only imagine what horrors he'd do to SS.


Well, it's a good thing he failed his last job interview then.
 
2012-12-10 12:36:39 PM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Romney really wants Medicare and Social Security to go private, where the corporation will do whatever it takes to make money...for themselves and their shareholders. Romney's whole career was based on 'screw the customer', I can only imagine what horrors he'd do to SS.


If George W. Bush couldn't force through SS privatization with a fully Republican Congress immediately after re-election, there's no way Mitt Romney could have pulled it off.
 
2012-12-10 12:40:13 PM

skullkrusher: raise taxes on those making $100,000/500,000 a year, leave spending as is for now with a plan to make cuts once the economy is rolling again.

Fiscal cliff solved, make checks payable to skullkrusher


I'm sorry, that was too reasonable. Care to try again?
 
2012-12-10 12:40:40 PM
Raise the Medicare age! What could possibly go wrong with a plan to remove the youngest and statically healthiest population from a risk pool? I predict potato-brazillion dollars in savings in the very first day this is enacted.
 
2012-12-10 12:41:51 PM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: skullkrusher: raise taxes on those making $100,000/500,000 a year, leave spending as is for now with a plan to make cuts once the economy is rolling again.

Fiscal cliff solved, make checks payable to skullkrusher

I'm sorry, that was too reasonable. Care to try again?


Tax cuts for me, austerity for thee?

I did notice that I dropped a 0 in my $1,000,000/$500,000 though
 
2012-12-10 12:44:52 PM
That actually would be the best solution. We are simply too far in the hole without raising revenues. Entitlements are too high and need to go down.

The problem is that as usual taxes will go up and cutting entitlements will be kicked down the road until the US either defaults on its debt and/or starts hyperinflation. The reason the Republicans are holding tax raises hostage is because they know the Democrats are lying through their teeth about doing anything about entitlements.

The people who voted for Obama made it loud and clear that they want to bankrupt America so that they can raise children that they cannot afford and get retirements for which they refused to save. And Democracy is always right - except when it does Liberals don't like. Then it's racist fascism.
 
2012-12-10 12:45:58 PM
I still think its funny that we're back to "Democrats won so we have to do what they say"

In 2000, 2002, 2004, 2010 it was "fark you! fark you! We're not doing a damn thing you want! We don't care WHO won!"
 
2012-12-10 12:46:38 PM
Just let all the tax cuts expire and then re-pass the ones that you want to bring back. The Republicans will be in the unenvious position of looking resentful that you cut taxes. You will not have to eat anything in terms of concessions to them, and TOTALLY fark them over while doing it.
 
2012-12-10 12:46:52 PM

Uranus Is Huge!: Raise the Medicare age! What could possibly go wrong with a plan to remove the youngest and statically healthiest population from a risk pool? I predict potato-brazillion dollars in savings in the very first day this is enacted.


And simultaneously dump a sicker population into the private market whose costs are rising faster than Medicare's!

Raising the Medicare age isn't even a solution in search of a problem.
 
2012-12-10 12:47:46 PM

skullkrusher: The Jami Turman Fan Club: Romney really wants Medicare and Social Security to go private, where the corporation will do whatever it takes to make money...for themselves and their shareholders. Romney's whole career was based on 'screw the customer', I can only imagine what horrors he'd do to SS.

good news is that what Romney wants doesn't matter anymore.


Except the tax solutions the GOP is proposing are his, as are the deficit reductions. The plans Boehner is putting up what Romney ran on.
 
2012-12-10 12:47:48 PM

beta_plus: That actually would be the best solution. We are simply too far in the hole without raising revenues. Entitlements are too high and need to go down.

The problem is that as usual taxes will go up and cutting entitlements will be kicked down the road until the US either defaults on its debt and/or starts hyperinflation. The reason the Republicans are holding tax raises hostage is because they know the Democrats are lying through their teeth about doing anything about entitlements.

The people who voted for Obama made it loud and clear that they want to bankrupt America so that they can raise children that they cannot afford and get retirements for which they refused to save. And Democracy is always right - except when it does Liberals don't like. Then it's racist fascism.


Your assessment must be considered against the fact that you are a liar.
 
2012-12-10 12:47:56 PM
and here I was hoping it would end in solution that could be framed as a plan for a positive recovery and deficit reduction.
 
2012-12-10 12:48:57 PM
You know what would actually help Medicare costs go down? Allow Medicare part D to negotiate the prices of prescription drugs (which would be just like every other federal prescription drug program) instead of just paying whatever the drug makers tell you to pay.
 
2012-12-10 12:49:08 PM

beta_plus: That actually would be the best solution. We are simply too far in the hole without raising revenues.


Alright this looks like a promising post...

beta_plus: Entitlements are too high and need to go down.


Uh oh. Well maybe it will be okay...

beta_plus: The problem is that as usual taxes will go up and cutting entitlements will be kicked down the road until the US either defaults on its debt and/or starts hyperinflation. The reason the Republicans are holding tax raises hostage is because they know the Democrats are lying through their teeth about doing anything about entitlements.


Oh dear god no. My eyes are starting to glaze over AND bleed

beta_plus: The people who voted for Obama made it loud and clear that they want to bankrupt America so that they can raise children that they cannot afford and get retirements for which they refused to save. And Democracy is always right - except when it does Liberals don't like. Then it's racist fascism.


This was some top-notch trolling, would rage again.
 
2012-12-10 12:49:48 PM

quickdraw: Do you really think so? I mean given that the things they are asking for wouldn't even make a dent in the deficit they claim to be so worried about? The problem is not just that they keep hammering away on tax cuts for the rich. Its that the "solutions" they offer aren't really solutions at all.


Keep in mind that neither policy nor political victories have to be practical ones.

Boehner's not budging on the political point of no tax cuts, and is losing any policy leverage. If he keeps this up, he'll lose both the policy and the politics fight because of his horrific position.
 
2012-12-10 12:50:23 PM
Just get rid of Social Security and Medicare completely, problem solved, since they are non-essential services anyway, according to Republicans.
 
2012-12-10 12:50:28 PM

Dimensio: beta_plus: That actually would be the best solution. We are simply too far in the hole without raising revenues. Entitlements are too high and need to go down.

The problem is that as usual taxes will go up and cutting entitlements will be kicked down the road until the US either defaults on its debt and/or starts hyperinflation. The reason the Republicans are holding tax raises hostage is because they know the Democrats are lying through their teeth about doing anything about entitlements.

The people who voted for Obama made it loud and clear that they want to bankrupt America so that they can raise children that they cannot afford and get retirements for which they refused to save. And Democracy is always right - except when it does Liberals don't like. Then it's racist fascism.

Your assessment must be considered against the fact that you are a liar.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

All of this right here.
 
2012-12-10 12:50:54 PM
I'm sure randomasshole can make a long list of Republican policies proposed after the 2000, 2002, and 2004 elections that were defeated by Democratic opposition (Social Security privatization doesn't count, because that was public revulsion that defeated it). Also, I'm pretty sure that Democrats still controlled 1.5 out of the 2 elected branches of government after 2010, so, uh, blow me.
 
2012-12-10 12:51:29 PM

beta_plus: And Democracy is always right - except when it does Liberals don't like. Then it's racist fascism.

 

i.ytimg.com

Racist fascism? Who talks like that?
 
2012-12-10 12:52:16 PM

Super_pope: Just let all the tax cuts expire and then re-pass the ones that you want to bring back. The Republicans will be in the unenvious position of looking resentful that you cut taxes. You will not have to eat anything in terms of concessions to them, and TOTALLY fark them over while doing it.


You know what? At this point I'd be fine with Obama re-instating the Bush tax cuts for another two years even on the wealthiest 2%, in return for other major concessions from the Republicans (like restructuring the debt ceiling procedures, cutting defense, another stimulus, or implementing the Simpson-Bowles tax plan).

As an added bonus, he'd get to hold the Republicans over the fire again in two years.
 
2012-12-10 12:53:45 PM

delta_minus: The people who voted for Obama made it loud and clear that they want to bankrupt America


I'm pretty sure Grover Norquist, the guy whose actual stated policy goal is to literally bankrupt and destroy the federal government, didn't vote for Obama.
 
2012-12-10 12:53:51 PM

Dimensio: beta_plus: That actually would be the best solution. We are simply too far in the hole without raising revenues. Entitlements are too high and need to go down.

The problem is that as usual taxes will go up and cutting entitlements will be kicked down the road until the US either defaults on its debt and/or starts hyperinflation. The reason the Republicans are holding tax raises hostage is because they know the Democrats are lying through their teeth about doing anything about entitlements.

The people who voted for Obama made it loud and clear that they want to bankrupt America so that they can raise children that they cannot afford and get retirements for which they refused to save. And Democracy is always right - except when it does Liberals don't like. Then it's racist fascism.

Your assessment must be considered against the fact that you are a liar.


Also, he's hilariously wrong.
 
2012-12-10 12:54:03 PM

Dog Welder: You know what would actually help Medicare costs go down? Allow Medicare part D to negotiate the prices of prescription drugs (which would be just like every other federal prescription drug program) instead of just paying whatever the drug makers tell you to pay.


Havnt you been paying attention? Republicans hate negotiating.
 
2012-12-10 12:54:43 PM

mrshowrules: Linoleum_Blownapart: Grand_Moff_Joseph: The problem I have here is that just about everyone in DC is misusing the word "entitlement". Yes, it's an entitlement, but not because we think we deserve it. It's an entitlement because we're owed the farking money that we paid into it.

No one is being a "taker" for asking for what is dutifully theirs to begin with.

So after I pay the cashier, my groceries are my entitlement? Sounds a bit plebian for such an aristocratic word.

Without it's current use, you'd think an entitlement would be say, never having to go to jail after crashing the banking system, or never having to pay the fine for the Exxon Valdez oilspill, or never facing manslaughter charges for the Deepwater Horizon disaster, but instead it means government services you get back in return for the taxes you pay.

Now if you wanted to use that word for political access, I could see that. After spending a few million on a Super-PAC you could be 'entitled' to write legislation for your Congressional Representative to submit.

When you receive what is owed to you, that is taking.

When you pay what you owe in taxes, that is Government theft.

Basically, Conservatives don't want any money to move around. All that shiat should be stored.


Like in some type of "lockbox"?
 
2012-12-10 12:54:55 PM

mrshowrules:
If you books still aren't balancing fast enough we can talk about closing loopholes for the average Americans. Until the wealth gap continues to expand, you should only be raising taxes on the rich.


The net result of the Mortgage Interest Deduction is an increased property tax burden on homehowners, and a higher monthly payment for renters. It is a tax on average Americans.

The only one who benefits from it currently are RE Agents and banks.

The only homeowners who saw a net gain were those who bought prior to the creation of the credit and were able to sell after housing prices climbed to meet the higher price floor the credit provided.
 
2012-12-10 12:55:25 PM

threadjackistan: Dog Welder: You know what would actually help Medicare costs go down? Allow Medicare part D to negotiate the prices of prescription drugs (which would be just like every other federal prescription drug program) instead of just paying whatever the drug makers tell you to pay.

Havnt you been paying attention? Republicans hate negotiating.


They love negotiating. Of course, their definition of "negotiating" is "agreeing to our proposal".
 
2012-12-10 12:56:00 PM

mrshowrules: Basically, Conservatives don't want any money to move around. All that shiat should be stored.


The economy is improved by stuffing green pieces of paper in mattresses.
 
2012-12-10 12:57:02 PM

The Larch: You know what? At this point I'd be fine with Obama re-instating the Bush tax cuts for another two years even on the wealthiest 2%, in return for other major concessions from the Republicans (like restructuring the debt ceiling procedures, cutting defense, another stimulus, or implementing the Simpson-Bowles tax plan).


Fark that. You really think offering to extend the Bush tax cuts will actually wins concessions from Boehner and McConnell?

As an added bonus, he'd get to hold the Republicans over the fire again in two years.

And fark that, too. Two years from now, Republicans will be more intransigent on the basis that the last congressional election of Obama's tenure will have passed, and they will call him a lame duck (even with two years left in his term). At some point, Democrats need to stop holding Republicans over the fire and start ACTUALLY DROPPING THEM INTO THE FIRE.
 
2012-12-10 01:03:51 PM

Dutch Pilsner: Like in some type of "lockbox"?


What part of "lockbox" don't you understand?

www.ronlim.com
 
2012-12-10 01:04:03 PM
Why are Republicans even entering into this discussion with the White House and Democrats? OK, we go over the fiscal cliff in a month, right? How bad could anything possibly get between then and January 21 when Romney is sworn in? I just don't get it.

Stick to your guns, GOP!
 
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