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(Yahoo)   All cars made after 2014 will be legally required to spy on drivers   (autos.yahoo.com) divider line 28
    More: PSA, Ford Crown Victoria, 37th state, recorders, data store, data points, cars, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration  
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7294 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 Dec 2012 at 2:04 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-09 04:30:37 PM  
2 votes:

titwrench: Mister Peejay: leviosaurus:

So much this. Stop worrying about your black box, and start worrying about the data leaking out of your smartphone, which contains all the info you're paranoid about, except that instead of you legally owning the data, Apple, Google or the app manufacturer owns it.

Not only that, but people WANT to be tracked! What do you people think you're doing when you're constantly updating social media, or using store points cards? "Hey guys, come track me! Please? Here, let me pay you to know what I'm doing!"

Call me paranoid but I refuse to use my debit cards or credit cards whenever I purchase alcohol, ammo and other such things. I always take out cash instead. I really have no justification or reasoning behind it. I am not on any sort of lists I just don't like those purchases being tracked to me.


You are in need of professional help because you are acting on paranoid delusions that you admit have no basis in reality.
2012-12-09 03:25:47 PM  
2 votes:

Kittypie070: Generation_D 2012-12-09 01:50:05 PM

Just imagine a trial lawyer's delight in a bitter custody or divorce getting to subpoena the record of where the other party was on a particular date and time. Imagine the fun.


2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going.

2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going.

2. It's not a tracking device for f**k's sake!!
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going.


So much this. Stop worrying about your black box, and start worrying about the data leaking out of your smartphone, which contains all the info you're paranoid about, except that instead of you legally owning the data, Apple, Google or the app manufacturer owns it.
2012-12-09 10:30:09 AM  
2 votes:
http://jalopnik.com/5966628/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-bla c k-boxes-coming-to-your-next-car


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DEC 7, 2012 2:45 PM 63,282 358 Share


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Everything You Need To Know About The Black Boxes Coming To Your Next Car
Jason Torchinsky
It's looking very likely that a bill in Congress that will make mandatory the use of "black boxes"- more formally, Event Data Recorders (EDR) - will become law soon. These are little computers clad in rugged casings that record data from your car's various sensors and computers to use for accident investigation and, very likely, other uses.

There's lots of privacy concerns around this new bill, and lots of questions as to exactly what that little boxy black snitch is snooping on. Plus, what about the voluntary black boxes some insurance carriers are offering? Let's see what we can clear up.
1. It's pretty likely your car already has an EDR.
GM was the pioneer here, starting to install them in the late '90s, and by 2005 a number of marques (GM, Ford, Isuzu, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Subaru and Suzuki) were putting them on everything. According to the NHTSA, about 91.6% of cars currently have them. Here's a list. Notable exceptions are Audi and Mercedes-Benz, but this new law will change that.

If you're like many of us Jalops, myself included, you may be driving a car that predates OBD-anything, so, unless you have a very technologically adventurous stalker, you likely don't have one. The law does not appear to require retrofitting the devices to, say, your King Midget.

2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going. So your drug-prostitute-deep fried food secret habits are still safe, as long as you don't get in a wreck with your hookers and crack and mouthful of fried cheese.

3. Okay, what do these things record?
Great question, disembodied voice. And a surprisingly tricky answer to find. Most articles just mentioned the bill requires 15 separate data points to be recorded, without listing what they are. While more data can be recorded based on manufacturers' own desires, these are the 15 data points that would be required by the new law- well, this list has 17, so maybe there's a couple others:

Change in forward crash speed
Maximum change in forward crash speed
Time from beginning of crash at which the maximum change in forward crash speed occurs
Speed vehicle was traveling
Percentage of engine throttle, percentage full (how far the accelerator pedal was pressed)
Whether or not brake was applied
Ignition cycle (number of power cycles applied to the EDR) at the time of the crash
Ignition cycle (number of power cycles applied to the EDR) when the EDR data were downloaded
Whether or not driver was using safety belt
Whether or not frontal airbag warning lamp was on
Driver frontal airbag deployment: time to deploy for a single stage airbag, or time to first stage deployment for a multistage airbag
Right front passenger frontal airbag deployment: time to deploy for a single stage airbag, or time to first stage deployment for a multistage airbag
Number of crash events
Time between first two crash events, if applicable
Whether or not EDR completed recording
As you can tell, most of this data is designed to aid in accident investigations, to help determine who was at fault, if any laws were broken, and to determine driver input compared to car performance to aid in investigations like the Toyota unintended acceleration incidents.

4. Who owns this data?
This is actually the best part about this new law, because it clearly states that you, the car's owner, owns the data. I don't think any of us are thrilled about having these things in our cars, but if it's going to happen anyway, a law like this is needed to protect car owners. I'm a firm believer that any and all data your car generates should be the easily-accessible property of the owner. As the IIHS says on their site about this:

EDRs and the data they store belong to vehicle owners. Police, insurers, researchers, automakers and others may gain access to the data with owner consent. Without consent, access may be obtained through a court order. For example, in a Florida criminal case involving a vehicular manslaughter charge, the police obtained a warrant to access the EDR data.

For crashes that don't involve litigation, especially when police or insurers are interested in assessing fault, insurers may be able to access the EDRs in their policyholders' vehicles based on provisions in the insurance contract requiring policyholders to cooperate with the insurer. However, some states prohibit insurance contracts from requiring policyholders to consent to access.

I'd be more concerned about what private insurance companies would do with this data than I am what the police would do with it, so if you're in a state that allows your insurance company to require you to let them access the data, make sure you carefully read your contract.

The fact that the data is your property will also prevent it from being used by advertisers and/or dealerships (whew) and law enforcement agencies will normally need a warrant to get the data. This point about requiring a warrant has already been tested in court, with the appeals court reversing an original manslaughter conviction of a California driver, stating of the police's access to the driver's Yukon's EDR data:

"We conclude that a motorist's subjective and reasonable expectation of privacy with regard to her or his own vehicle encompasses the digital data held in the vehicle's SDM."

That means the cops can't bully your car into testifying against you, its loving owner.



5. How is the data retrieved from the EDR?
The data is retrieved via either a connection to your ODB port in your car, or, if you had a really dramatic wreck that left your car strewn over a quarter mile of highway, the EDR itself may be removed from the mess and the data retrieved directly.

In order to help enforce the idea that the data is the owner's property, there have been proposals (and this patent) for lockable OBD port access panels.

6. So if it's my data, can it be used against me in court?
Oh hell yes. You own it, but warrants can be gotten, data can be downloaded, and, potentially, you could be screwed. Or vindicated. It's just data.

More alarming is the potential for unauthorized access, or even inadvertent access to the data. It's happened before, such as in the case of Nissan Leafs sending GPS and speed data in unencrypted text to websites for voluntary crowdsourcing and tracking of fuel economy data.

7. What should I be most concerned about?
This new law itself isn't too bad, in that if we accept that these recorders were already appearing on cars, it's good to have some legal protection of the data. What's more alarming are third-party tracking systems from companies like Progressive, which promise lower rates, but at the cost of making the consumer far more vulnerable. Plus, these private systems are not necessarily subject to the same laws that protect owners for the federally-mandated black boxes.

I sure as hell wouldn't want my insurance company tracking everything I do- their primary goal is to make money, and I don't trust my data would be used for any goals other than that.

8. So how should I feel about all this, in general?
Wary, but not paranoid. This new bill will give a reasonable level of protection, but never forget that while this will likely help greatly for traffic safety and accident investigation, there is a huge privacy hole being opened, and if we're not constantly vigilant and careful, abuses will happen.

As it stands now, with cable-based retrieval, you can have a reasonable degree of assurance that your data is safe. Some companies, like BMW, are experimenting with wireless transmission of this sort of data, to schedule maintenance and alert dealerships of service needs. If this becomes more common, safeguarding data integrity will become a much more difficult issue.

9. Are there any fun upsides?
Maybe, if these things are hackable. I'm picturing some interesting art possibilities using your car's data to produce interesting visualizations. Plus, wouldn't you like to hack this so your car can Tweet it's throttle position every minute? No? Me neither. But I bet there'll be some fun hacks to be found in these things.

(Sources: IIHS, Google Patent Search, Computerworld, Forbes)
2012-12-09 10:22:15 AM  
2 votes:
"By understanding how drivers respond in a crash and whether key safety systems operate properly, NHTSA and automakers can make our vehicles and our roadways even safer," said U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. "This proposal will give us the critical insight and information we need to save more lives."

the legislature is gonna think this is totally awesome...right up until one of them gets caught driving drunk and their black box recorder verifies they wiped out a bunch of nuns by driving stupidly. THEN we'll see 'privacy concerns' get written into the laws again.
2012-12-09 10:11:50 AM  
2 votes:

NutWrench: This has actually been a requirement on a lot of cars since 2006. My car has one. There's nothing sinister about what they record: vehicle speed, whether or not the gas or brakes pedals are applied, etc. The device has limited memory, it records a couple minutes of data before it get overwritten and stops recording when the airbag is deployed.

The main reason for having it is the make the insurance claims process a lot quicker and cheaper by verifying exactly what was going on at the time of the crash. If someone claims they were doing 20 mph and braking at the time of the accident and the data recorder says they were actually doing a steady 50 mph . . . well . . . you can expect a lot more out-of-court settlements.


I thought the original reason for black boxes was manufacturers covering their arses when claims that airbags didn't deploy.

The new boxes are going to record everything from your seat position to how loud you were playing the radio. (and everything in between)
2012-12-09 10:52:12 PM  
1 votes:
Um... a "black box" is just the PID settings for control of the brakes and airbag system with a duration of maybe ten or fifteen seconds, numbnuts, any time the data is being retrieved it's because your car already crashed. If you crashed your damned vehicle, you can't argue that whatever you were doing is your own private business-- by definition it was dangerous enough to easily harm someone.

Basically if you're seriously worried about this violating your privacy, maybe you should be under monitoring, because this isn't something that'll alter how private your driving habits are unless you're insultingly obvious in your gross negligence.
2012-12-09 10:17:18 PM  
1 votes:

jaytkay: netringer: Yep. Is not to worry drivers, "The legislature has passed the new law requreing all occupants to wear seatbelts, but police will not be allowed to stop drivers for not wearing seat belts."

Time passes...
"The driver was pulled over for not wearing a seat belt."
"Police remind drivers this holiday season that they will be stopping cars for violating the mandatory seat belt law."
"Police have set up road blocks to ticket drivers for not wearing seat belts."

Not wearing a seat belt is very important to me. Jack-booted thugs are simply trying to deny me all the great benefits of not wearing a seat belt.


I knew I should have said that. I always wore a seat belt. Even before the laws.

The POINT is that there is a camel's nose in the tent. Mor eliek they will drop teh promises when nobody's looking. Nobody covers the quiet bill amendment that says now the cops CAN pull you over simply for not wearing the seatbelt.
2012-12-09 07:18:43 PM  
1 votes:

Saturn5: This About That: Then again, apart from the "slippery slope" argument, is the "few seconds before and after a crash" really an invasion of privacy?

If the vehicle owner owns the data and it can be used against them in court without consent, I could see that as a violation of either the 4th or 5th amendments.


4. Who owns this data?
This is actually the best part about this new law, because it clearly states that you, the car's owner, owns the data. I don't think any of us are thrilled about having these things in our cars, but if it's going to happen anyway, a law like this is needed to protect car owners. I'm a firm believer that any and all data your car generates should be the easily-accessible property of the owner. As the IIHS says on their site about this:

EDRs and the data they store belong to vehicle owners. Police, insurers, researchers, automakers and others may gain access to the data with owner consent. Without consent, access may be obtained through a court order. For example, in a Florida criminal case involving a vehicular manslaughter charge, the police obtained a warrant to access the EDR data.

For crashes that don't involve litigation, especially when police or insurers are interested in assessing fault, insurers may be able to access the EDRs in their policyholders' vehicles based on provisions in the insurance contract requiring policyholders to cooperate with the insurer. However, some states prohibit insurance contracts from requiring policyholders to consent to access.

I'd be more concerned about what private insurance companies would do with this data than I am what the police would do with it, so if you're in a state that allows your insurance company to require you to let them access the data, make sure you carefully read your contract.
2012-12-09 06:13:19 PM  
1 votes:

Hand Banana: Marcus Aurelius: Most of these black boxes are located under the front passenger seat. Once you know where it is, it is fairly easy to disable or dispose of.

Oops! The cable came out. How did that happen?

Then when some idiot hits you and lies about what happens and you have nothing or no one to back up your story....oops.

These are more for your own protection than anything.


No, actually, their mandated use is for the insurance companies. If it were for my benefit, I could choose to turn it off.
2012-12-09 06:08:18 PM  
1 votes:

Hand Banana: Fade2black: That's all well and good, but it ends up being the camel's nose under the tent. In 10 years they'll want full readings on what goes on with the car, and what goes on inside the car.


Yep. Is not to worry drivers, "The legislature has passed the new law requreing all occupants to wear seatbelts, but police will not be allowed to stop drivers for not wearing seat belts."

Time passes...
"The driver was pulled over for not wearing a seat belt."
"Police remind drivers this holiday season that they will be stopping cars for violating the mandatory seat belt law."
"Police have set up road blocks to ticket drivers for not wearing seat belts."

It will be: "Chumly was convicted of contempt of court for tampering with the black box in his car."
2012-12-09 05:51:36 PM  
1 votes:

Raharu:

Call me paranoid but I refuse to use my debit cards or credit cards whenever I purchase alcohol, ammo and other such things. I always take out cash instead. I really have no justification or reasoning behind it. I am not on any sort of lists I just don't like those purchases being tracked to me.

You are in need of professional help because you are acting on paranoid delusions that you admit have no basis in reality.


Not only that, but if you look at the cash you're spending, there are serial numbers on them. When banks receive those bills, the reader tracks the serial numbers. So when you withdraw cash from an ATM, and then the gun store deposits that same cash that evening, the bank has a pretty good idea where you spent it.

/Okay, banks actually aren't monitoring things that closely
//But honestly, there is no reason they couldn't. the technology is there and it isn't difficult.
2012-12-09 04:32:18 PM  
1 votes:

Fade2black: NutWrench: This has actually been a requirement on a lot of cars since 2006. My car has one. There's nothing sinister about what they record: vehicle speed, whether or not the gas or brakes pedals are applied, etc. The device has limited memory, it records a couple minutes of data before it get overwritten and stops recording when the airbag is deployed.

The main reason for having it is the make the insurance claims process a lot quicker and cheaper by verifying exactly what was going on at the time of the crash. If someone claims they were doing 20 mph and braking at the time of the accident and the data recorder says they were actually doing a steady 50 mph . . . well . . . you can expect a lot more out-of-court settlements.

That's all well and good, but it ends up being the camel's nose under the tent. In 10 years they'll want full readings on what goes on with the car, and what goes on inside the car.

I don't really care either way. Mo gov'ment, Mo gov'ment...sheeple love this shiat. Thankfully for every needless oversight, there's a brilliant subset of us that know, and find, a way to rip that piece of shiat right the fark out of my car. Good luck, comrade.


Tell us more about your moon bat reverse vampire Masonic musings.
2012-12-09 04:29:51 PM  
1 votes:
When did Americans get so stupid/paranoid?

And if you drive a "fly by wire" car (A Prius, BMW, etc) you already have one of these.
2012-12-09 03:50:26 PM  
1 votes:

Mister Peejay: leviosaurus:

So much this. Stop worrying about your black box, and start worrying about the data leaking out of your smartphone, which contains all the info you're paranoid about, except that instead of you legally owning the data, Apple, Google or the app manufacturer owns it.

Not only that, but people WANT to be tracked! What do you people think you're doing when you're constantly updating social media, or using store points cards? "Hey guys, come track me! Please? Here, let me pay you to know what I'm doing!"


Call me paranoid but I refuse to use my debit cards or credit cards whenever I purchase alcohol, ammo and other such things. I always take out cash instead. I really have no justification or reasoning behind it. I am not on any sort of lists I just don't like those purchases being tracked to me.
2012-12-09 03:22:25 PM  
1 votes:
Generation_D 2012-12-09 01:50:05 PM

Just imagine a trial lawyer's delight in a bitter custody or divorce getting to subpoena the record of where the other party was on a particular date and time. Imagine the fun.


2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going
.


2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going
.

2. It's not a tracking device for f**k's sake!!
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going
.
2012-12-09 03:15:39 PM  
1 votes:
I expect I'll own a post-2010 vehicle by about 2030, and by that time I'll be too old to care if you monitor me driving 14 mph to the pot shop.
2012-12-09 03:11:20 PM  
1 votes:
I can't wait until insurance companies start requiring dash cams.

Sure Russia has more speeding, worse maintenance, and maybe more stickups than the US, but in my life of driving I have witnessed around 5 events that would be on YouTube had I a dash cam. Multiply that 5 by 200 million drivers gives a large pants-load of videos.
2012-12-09 03:10:51 PM  
1 votes:

mccallcl: LasersHurt: At the core, though, what is it that worries you? The data being collected, or it being misused to harm you?

The data being misused, and the additional complexity being added to cars. I also don't even want the data to be used as expected, because I break the law behind the wheel. I break the law all the time, everyone does. Investigation and prosecution costs keep my daily victimless crime spree of going 48 in a 45 from ruining my life. Automation like this will bury me and many people in red tape, and until a reasonable level of enforcement is worked out, will be applied selectively and with all the accuracy large institutions are famous for.

Just make the cars drive themselves already for Christ's sake.


Current expectations are that some driverless production models will start rolling out around 2015, though I suspect this will vary based on laws and manufacturer's choices. Google's saying the same thing, roughly 5 years. Of course they'll have the boxes, more complexity, and gather MORE data than these do. So your personal desire for them might wane.
2012-12-09 03:06:38 PM  
1 votes:

lewismarktwo: If I own the car and I own the data, why can't I turn these things off?


You can, but you don't own the roads that you operate the car on, so there's kind of an ambiguity there.

And then there's the legal ramifications that may be involved if you get into a collision with a car that had safety devices that you knowingly disabled. Will your insurance pay for medical expenses if you disable your airbags? Even if the presence of airbags would have made no difference? Let's say that the yaw sensor that the stability control system requires is built into the airbag module. They could argue that the car's stability control would have prevented the collision, so not only are they not paying out, but the collision was your fault because you knowingly disabled that device...
kab
2012-12-09 03:01:52 PM  
1 votes:

lewismarktwo: If I own the car and I own the data, why can't I turn these things off?


Because in the land of the free, you don't own your car once you decide to use it on a public road.
2012-12-09 02:48:20 PM  
1 votes:
"2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going. So your drug-prostitute-deep fried food secret habits are still safe, as long as you don't get in a wreck with your hookers and crack and mouthful of fried cheese."


Why is it that whenever someone wants to make an argument for privacy or not being manipulated and controlled for someone else's benefit we get this kind of horseshiat?
It's not even remotely funny.
2012-12-09 02:38:21 PM  
1 votes:

dustman81: Watch as insurance companies start requiring policyholders to turn over the blackbox on demand or have their claim denied and/or insurance canceled.


Very likely this will be true. They won't force you to hand over the data, but they'll jack up everyone's premiums and then give generous "discounts" to those who comply.
2012-12-09 02:25:20 PM  
1 votes:
If I own the car and I own the data, why can't I turn these things off?
2012-12-09 02:12:29 PM  
1 votes:
Pertinent data from the article.

"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says it will require all new U.S. vehicles to have black boxes by Sept. 1, 2014, noting that 96 percent of 2013 models already come with them standard. The new proposal does not change the 15 types of data black boxes should record when it senses a crash."
2012-12-09 02:09:54 PM  
1 votes:

Pokey.Clyde: Generation_D: And thats not all. Just imagine a trial lawyer's delight in a bitter custody or divorce getting to subpoena the record of where the other party was on a particular date and time. Imagine the fun.

Pretty sure they're not equipped with GPS, so no, that won't be happening.


not yet, you mean. wouldn't take much to connect the black box to the GPS system, then use that data to reconstruct where you were in the half hour prior to the accident.
2012-12-09 11:39:40 AM  
1 votes:
Most of these black boxes are located under the front passenger seat. Once you know where it is, it is fairly easy to disable or dispose of.

Oops! The cable came out. How did that happen?
2012-12-09 10:35:06 AM  
1 votes:

Weaver95: "By understanding how drivers respond in a crash and whether key safety systems operate properly, NHTSA and automakers can make our vehicles and our roadways even safer," said U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. "This proposal will give us the critical insight and information we need to save more lives."

the legislature is gonna think this is totally awesome...right up until one of them gets caught driving drunk and their black box recorder verifies they wiped out a bunch of nuns by driving stupidly. THEN we'll see 'privacy concerns' get written into the laws again.


Driving exhausted, Weaver. EXHAUSTED.

Rich people don't get drunk. They get exhausted.
2012-12-09 10:03:57 AM  
1 votes:
This has actually been a requirement on a lot of cars since 2006. My car has one. There's nothing sinister about what they record: vehicle speed, whether or not the gas or brakes pedals are applied, etc. The device has limited memory, it records a couple minutes of data before it get overwritten and stops recording when the airbag is deployed.

The main reason for having it is the make the insurance claims process a lot quicker and cheaper by verifying exactly what was going on at the time of the crash. If someone claims they were doing 20 mph and braking at the time of the accident and the data recorder says they were actually doing a steady 50 mph . . . well . . . you can expect a lot more out-of-court settlements.
 
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