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(Yahoo)   All cars made after 2014 will be legally required to spy on drivers   (autos.yahoo.com) divider line 102
    More: PSA, Ford Crown Victoria, 37th state, recorders, data store, data points, cars, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration  
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7288 clicks; posted to Geek » on 09 Dec 2012 at 2:04 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-09 10:03:57 AM
This has actually been a requirement on a lot of cars since 2006. My car has one. There's nothing sinister about what they record: vehicle speed, whether or not the gas or brakes pedals are applied, etc. The device has limited memory, it records a couple minutes of data before it get overwritten and stops recording when the airbag is deployed.

The main reason for having it is the make the insurance claims process a lot quicker and cheaper by verifying exactly what was going on at the time of the crash. If someone claims they were doing 20 mph and braking at the time of the accident and the data recorder says they were actually doing a steady 50 mph . . . well . . . you can expect a lot more out-of-court settlements.
 
2012-12-09 10:11:50 AM

NutWrench: This has actually been a requirement on a lot of cars since 2006. My car has one. There's nothing sinister about what they record: vehicle speed, whether or not the gas or brakes pedals are applied, etc. The device has limited memory, it records a couple minutes of data before it get overwritten and stops recording when the airbag is deployed.

The main reason for having it is the make the insurance claims process a lot quicker and cheaper by verifying exactly what was going on at the time of the crash. If someone claims they were doing 20 mph and braking at the time of the accident and the data recorder says they were actually doing a steady 50 mph . . . well . . . you can expect a lot more out-of-court settlements.


I thought the original reason for black boxes was manufacturers covering their arses when claims that airbags didn't deploy.

The new boxes are going to record everything from your seat position to how loud you were playing the radio. (and everything in between)
 
2012-12-09 10:22:15 AM
"By understanding how drivers respond in a crash and whether key safety systems operate properly, NHTSA and automakers can make our vehicles and our roadways even safer," said U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. "This proposal will give us the critical insight and information we need to save more lives."

the legislature is gonna think this is totally awesome...right up until one of them gets caught driving drunk and their black box recorder verifies they wiped out a bunch of nuns by driving stupidly. THEN we'll see 'privacy concerns' get written into the laws again.
 
2012-12-09 10:30:09 AM
http://jalopnik.com/5966628/everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-bla c k-boxes-coming-to-your-next-car


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Everything You Need To Know About The Black Boxes Coming To Your Next Car
Jason Torchinsky
It's looking very likely that a bill in Congress that will make mandatory the use of "black boxes"- more formally, Event Data Recorders (EDR) - will become law soon. These are little computers clad in rugged casings that record data from your car's various sensors and computers to use for accident investigation and, very likely, other uses.

There's lots of privacy concerns around this new bill, and lots of questions as to exactly what that little boxy black snitch is snooping on. Plus, what about the voluntary black boxes some insurance carriers are offering? Let's see what we can clear up.
1. It's pretty likely your car already has an EDR.
GM was the pioneer here, starting to install them in the late '90s, and by 2005 a number of marques (GM, Ford, Isuzu, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Subaru and Suzuki) were putting them on everything. According to the NHTSA, about 91.6% of cars currently have them. Here's a list. Notable exceptions are Audi and Mercedes-Benz, but this new law will change that.

If you're like many of us Jalops, myself included, you may be driving a car that predates OBD-anything, so, unless you have a very technologically adventurous stalker, you likely don't have one. The law does not appear to require retrofitting the devices to, say, your King Midget.

2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going. So your drug-prostitute-deep fried food secret habits are still safe, as long as you don't get in a wreck with your hookers and crack and mouthful of fried cheese.

3. Okay, what do these things record?
Great question, disembodied voice. And a surprisingly tricky answer to find. Most articles just mentioned the bill requires 15 separate data points to be recorded, without listing what they are. While more data can be recorded based on manufacturers' own desires, these are the 15 data points that would be required by the new law- well, this list has 17, so maybe there's a couple others:

Change in forward crash speed
Maximum change in forward crash speed
Time from beginning of crash at which the maximum change in forward crash speed occurs
Speed vehicle was traveling
Percentage of engine throttle, percentage full (how far the accelerator pedal was pressed)
Whether or not brake was applied
Ignition cycle (number of power cycles applied to the EDR) at the time of the crash
Ignition cycle (number of power cycles applied to the EDR) when the EDR data were downloaded
Whether or not driver was using safety belt
Whether or not frontal airbag warning lamp was on
Driver frontal airbag deployment: time to deploy for a single stage airbag, or time to first stage deployment for a multistage airbag
Right front passenger frontal airbag deployment: time to deploy for a single stage airbag, or time to first stage deployment for a multistage airbag
Number of crash events
Time between first two crash events, if applicable
Whether or not EDR completed recording
As you can tell, most of this data is designed to aid in accident investigations, to help determine who was at fault, if any laws were broken, and to determine driver input compared to car performance to aid in investigations like the Toyota unintended acceleration incidents.

4. Who owns this data?
This is actually the best part about this new law, because it clearly states that you, the car's owner, owns the data. I don't think any of us are thrilled about having these things in our cars, but if it's going to happen anyway, a law like this is needed to protect car owners. I'm a firm believer that any and all data your car generates should be the easily-accessible property of the owner. As the IIHS says on their site about this:

EDRs and the data they store belong to vehicle owners. Police, insurers, researchers, automakers and others may gain access to the data with owner consent. Without consent, access may be obtained through a court order. For example, in a Florida criminal case involving a vehicular manslaughter charge, the police obtained a warrant to access the EDR data.

For crashes that don't involve litigation, especially when police or insurers are interested in assessing fault, insurers may be able to access the EDRs in their policyholders' vehicles based on provisions in the insurance contract requiring policyholders to cooperate with the insurer. However, some states prohibit insurance contracts from requiring policyholders to consent to access.

I'd be more concerned about what private insurance companies would do with this data than I am what the police would do with it, so if you're in a state that allows your insurance company to require you to let them access the data, make sure you carefully read your contract.

The fact that the data is your property will also prevent it from being used by advertisers and/or dealerships (whew) and law enforcement agencies will normally need a warrant to get the data. This point about requiring a warrant has already been tested in court, with the appeals court reversing an original manslaughter conviction of a California driver, stating of the police's access to the driver's Yukon's EDR data:

"We conclude that a motorist's subjective and reasonable expectation of privacy with regard to her or his own vehicle encompasses the digital data held in the vehicle's SDM."

That means the cops can't bully your car into testifying against you, its loving owner.



5. How is the data retrieved from the EDR?
The data is retrieved via either a connection to your ODB port in your car, or, if you had a really dramatic wreck that left your car strewn over a quarter mile of highway, the EDR itself may be removed from the mess and the data retrieved directly.

In order to help enforce the idea that the data is the owner's property, there have been proposals (and this patent) for lockable OBD port access panels.

6. So if it's my data, can it be used against me in court?
Oh hell yes. You own it, but warrants can be gotten, data can be downloaded, and, potentially, you could be screwed. Or vindicated. It's just data.

More alarming is the potential for unauthorized access, or even inadvertent access to the data. It's happened before, such as in the case of Nissan Leafs sending GPS and speed data in unencrypted text to websites for voluntary crowdsourcing and tracking of fuel economy data.

7. What should I be most concerned about?
This new law itself isn't too bad, in that if we accept that these recorders were already appearing on cars, it's good to have some legal protection of the data. What's more alarming are third-party tracking systems from companies like Progressive, which promise lower rates, but at the cost of making the consumer far more vulnerable. Plus, these private systems are not necessarily subject to the same laws that protect owners for the federally-mandated black boxes.

I sure as hell wouldn't want my insurance company tracking everything I do- their primary goal is to make money, and I don't trust my data would be used for any goals other than that.

8. So how should I feel about all this, in general?
Wary, but not paranoid. This new bill will give a reasonable level of protection, but never forget that while this will likely help greatly for traffic safety and accident investigation, there is a huge privacy hole being opened, and if we're not constantly vigilant and careful, abuses will happen.

As it stands now, with cable-based retrieval, you can have a reasonable degree of assurance that your data is safe. Some companies, like BMW, are experimenting with wireless transmission of this sort of data, to schedule maintenance and alert dealerships of service needs. If this becomes more common, safeguarding data integrity will become a much more difficult issue.

9. Are there any fun upsides?
Maybe, if these things are hackable. I'm picturing some interesting art possibilities using your car's data to produce interesting visualizations. Plus, wouldn't you like to hack this so your car can Tweet it's throttle position every minute? No? Me neither. But I bet there'll be some fun hacks to be found in these things.

(Sources: IIHS, Google Patent Search, Computerworld, Forbes)
 
2012-12-09 10:35:06 AM

Weaver95: "By understanding how drivers respond in a crash and whether key safety systems operate properly, NHTSA and automakers can make our vehicles and our roadways even safer," said U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. "This proposal will give us the critical insight and information we need to save more lives."

the legislature is gonna think this is totally awesome...right up until one of them gets caught driving drunk and their black box recorder verifies they wiped out a bunch of nuns by driving stupidly. THEN we'll see 'privacy concerns' get written into the laws again.


Driving exhausted, Weaver. EXHAUSTED.

Rich people don't get drunk. They get exhausted.
 
2012-12-09 11:39:40 AM
Most of these black boxes are located under the front passenger seat. Once you know where it is, it is fairly easy to disable or dispose of.

Oops! The cable came out. How did that happen?
 
2012-12-09 01:33:15 PM
i guess i'll stick to driving my 20yo car then
 
2012-12-09 01:44:58 PM

NutWrench: This has actually been a requirement on a lot of cars since 2006. My car has one. There's nothing sinister about what they record: vehicle speed, whether or not the gas or brakes pedals are applied, etc. The device has limited memory, it records a couple minutes of data before it get overwritten and stops recording when the airbag is deployed.

The main reason for having it is the make the insurance claims process a lot quicker and cheaper by verifying exactly what was going on at the time of the crash. If someone claims they were doing 20 mph and braking at the time of the accident and the data recorder says they were actually doing a steady 50 mph . . . well . . . you can expect a lot more out-of-court settlements.


I'm all for it if it makes those poor, neglected insurance companies feel better.
 
2012-12-09 01:50:05 PM

Weaver95: "By understanding how drivers respond in a crash and whether key safety systems operate properly, NHTSA and automakers can make our vehicles and our roadways even safer," said U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. "This proposal will give us the critical insight and information we need to save more lives."

the legislature is gonna think this is totally awesome...right up until one of them gets caught driving drunk and their black box recorder verifies they wiped out a bunch of nuns by driving stupidly. THEN we'll see 'privacy concerns' get written into the laws again.


And thats not all. Just imagine a trial lawyer's delight in a bitter custody or divorce getting to subpoena the record of where the other party was on a particular date and time. Imagine the fun.
 
2012-12-09 01:51:22 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Most of these black boxes are located under the front passenger seat. Once you know where it is, it is fairly easy to disable or dispose of.

Oops! The cable came out. How did that happen?


And you committed a crime similar to operating a motor vehicle without insurance. How did that happen.
 
2012-12-09 02:01:13 PM

Generation_D: And you committed a crime similar to operating a motor vehicle without insurance. How did that happen.


www.lolwut.com
 
2012-12-09 02:04:36 PM

Generation_D: And thats not all. Just imagine a trial lawyer's delight in a bitter custody or divorce getting to subpoena the record of where the other party was on a particular date and time. Imagine the fun.


Pretty sure they're not equipped with GPS, so no, that won't be happening.
 
2012-12-09 02:06:57 PM

Generation_D: Marcus Aurelius: Most of these black boxes are located under the front passenger seat. Once you know where it is, it is fairly easy to disable or dispose of.

Oops! The cable came out. How did that happen?

And you committed a crime similar to operating a motor vehicle without insurance. How did that happen.


Hey, sodas sometimes get spilled...
 
2012-12-09 02:09:54 PM

Pokey.Clyde: Generation_D: And thats not all. Just imagine a trial lawyer's delight in a bitter custody or divorce getting to subpoena the record of where the other party was on a particular date and time. Imagine the fun.

Pretty sure they're not equipped with GPS, so no, that won't be happening.


not yet, you mean. wouldn't take much to connect the black box to the GPS system, then use that data to reconstruct where you were in the half hour prior to the accident.
 
2012-12-09 02:12:29 PM
Pertinent data from the article.

"The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says it will require all new U.S. vehicles to have black boxes by Sept. 1, 2014, noting that 96 percent of 2013 models already come with them standard. The new proposal does not change the 15 types of data black boxes should record when it senses a crash."
 
2012-12-09 02:22:23 PM
But your honor, the black box said he was doing 100 mph in his 1989 ford fiesta with one cylinder not firing.
 
2012-12-09 02:25:20 PM
If I own the car and I own the data, why can't I turn these things off?
 
2012-12-09 02:27:03 PM

Weaver95: Pokey.Clyde: Generation_D: And thats not all. Just imagine a trial lawyer's delight in a bitter custody or divorce getting to subpoena the record of where the other party was on a particular date and time. Imagine the fun.

Pretty sure they're not equipped with GPS, so no, that won't be happening.

not yet, you mean. wouldn't take much to connect the black box to the GPS system, then use that data to reconstruct where you were in the half hour prior to the accident.


They can already do that. E-ZPass records, cell phone records and geotagged pictures uploaded to Facebook.

doyner: NutWrench: This has actually been a requirement on a lot of cars since 2006. My car has one. There's nothing sinister about what they record: vehicle speed, whether or not the gas or brakes pedals are applied, etc. The device has limited memory, it records a couple minutes of data before it get overwritten and stops recording when the airbag is deployed.

The main reason for having it is the make the insurance claims process a lot quicker and cheaper by verifying exactly what was going on at the time of the crash. If someone claims they were doing 20 mph and braking at the time of the accident and the data recorder says they were actually doing a steady 50 mph . . . well . . . you can expect a lot more out-of-court settlements.

I'm all for it if it makes those poor, neglected insurance companies feel better.


Watch as insurance companies start requiring policyholders to turn over the blackbox on demand or have their claim denied and/or insurance canceled.
 
2012-12-09 02:33:54 PM
Yeah, the "idea" of freedom is more important than common farking sense. Let's roll with that.
 
2012-12-09 02:34:16 PM
Can I read the data and verify it against my own readings from sensors not attached to ECU? Then this thing should be disabled until the software to do is is forced into public domain with the source released.

/will stick with his 16 year old ride
 
2012-12-09 02:37:55 PM

APE992: will stick with his 16 year old ride


My '66 Mustang laughs at black boxes.
 
2012-12-09 02:38:21 PM

dustman81: Watch as insurance companies start requiring policyholders to turn over the blackbox on demand or have their claim denied and/or insurance canceled.


Very likely this will be true. They won't force you to hand over the data, but they'll jack up everyone's premiums and then give generous "discounts" to those who comply.
 
2012-12-09 02:43:57 PM
I don't see a huge problem with this if it only captures data that can really only be used to help determine what happened in a crash, like pedal use and speed, and only with a short buffer. Blatant dual-use data like GPS would be excluded. You should be able to disable it if you own the car, but insurance companies should be able to charge you more for that (or conversely give a discount if you keep it). If any insurance company wants to require to outright, they can see how the market responds.
 
2012-12-09 02:45:09 PM
I see Raharu already handled this one.

If you drive a newer car, you've already got one of these. They've been in just about everything for a long time. It's how the manufacturer knows you were out drag racing when your clutch failed, and why they deiced to cancel your warranty.
 
2012-12-09 02:48:20 PM
"2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going. So your drug-prostitute-deep fried food secret habits are still safe, as long as you don't get in a wreck with your hookers and crack and mouthful of fried cheese."


Why is it that whenever someone wants to make an argument for privacy or not being manipulated and controlled for someone else's benefit we get this kind of horseshiat?
It's not even remotely funny.
 
2012-12-09 02:49:38 PM
Is it against the law to disable or remove them? Might be a nice little side hustle.
 
2012-12-09 02:52:19 PM

Farty McPooPants: "2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going. So your drug-prostitute-deep fried food secret habits are still safe, as long as you don't get in a wreck with your hookers and crack and mouthful of fried cheese."

Why is it that whenever someone wants to make an argument for privacy or not being manipulated and controlled for someone else's benefit we get this kind of horseshiat?
It's not even remotely funny.


It's exaggerated for laughs (and yes, it is kind of funny, and humor is subjective so accept it). At the core, though, what is it that worries you? The data being collected, or it being misused to harm you?

IF it's the latter, don't fight the technology, fight the abuse. Push for oversight that prevents anyone from abusing the data.

Fighting technology, or Data, is a losing proposition. It's more important to fight for responsibly applied tech.
 
2012-12-09 02:53:00 PM

lewismarktwo: If I own the car and I own the data, why can't I turn these things off?


this this and ONLY THIS
in fact, that sounds like yet another scotus case
 
2012-12-09 02:53:05 PM

BunkyBrewman: The new boxes are going to record everything from your seat position to how loud you were playing the radio. (and everything in between)


From which AM radio bloviator did you learn this "fact"?
 
2012-12-09 02:54:42 PM

Raharu: 4. Who owns this data?
This is actually the best part about this new law, because it clearly states that you, the car's owner, owns the data.


i212.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-09 03:00:30 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Most of these black boxes are located under the front passenger seat. Once you know where it is, it is fairly easy to disable or dispose of.

Oops! The cable came out. How did that happen?


Funny, the EDM is usually part of the airbag controller module, which also supplies information to other systems with its sensors, is NEVER positioned in some place like underneath a seat where water can get to it, and if you just unplug it, you disable at least two different networks and you won't even be able to start the car since the BCM and PCM are on opposite ends of the high speed CAN.

But yes, there's a discrete black box that you just unplug.
 
kab
2012-12-09 03:01:52 PM

lewismarktwo: If I own the car and I own the data, why can't I turn these things off?


Because in the land of the free, you don't own your car once you decide to use it on a public road.
 
2012-12-09 03:03:28 PM
TFA:
...96 percent of 2013 models already come with [black boxes] standard...

Knee-jerk reactions from paranoid Farkers with reading comprehension problems and a lack of real-world knowledge:

"i guess i'll stick to driving my 20yo car then"

"The new boxes are going to record everything from your seat position to how loud you were playing the radio."

"Why is it that whenever someone wants to make an argument for privacy or not being manipulated and controlled for someone else's benefit we get this kind of horseshiat?
It's not even remotely funny."

"Yeah, the "idea" of freedom is more important than common farking sense. Let's roll with that."

"wouldn't take much to connect the black box to the GPS system"

"Most of these black boxes are located under the front passenger seat. Once you know where it is, it is fairly easy to disable or dispose of." 
 
2012-12-09 03:06:38 PM

lewismarktwo: If I own the car and I own the data, why can't I turn these things off?


You can, but you don't own the roads that you operate the car on, so there's kind of an ambiguity there.

And then there's the legal ramifications that may be involved if you get into a collision with a car that had safety devices that you knowingly disabled. Will your insurance pay for medical expenses if you disable your airbags? Even if the presence of airbags would have made no difference? Let's say that the yaw sensor that the stability control system requires is built into the airbag module. They could argue that the car's stability control would have prevented the collision, so not only are they not paying out, but the collision was your fault because you knowingly disabled that device...
 
2012-12-09 03:08:22 PM

LasersHurt: At the core, though, what is it that worries you? The data being collected, or it being misused to harm you?


The data being misused, and the additional complexity being added to cars. I also don't even want the data to be used as expected, because I break the law behind the wheel. I break the law all the time, everyone does. Investigation and prosecution costs keep my daily victimless crime spree of going 48 in a 45 from ruining my life. Automation like this will bury me and many people in red tape, and until a reasonable level of enforcement is worked out, will be applied selectively and with all the accuracy large institutions are famous for.

Just make the cars drive themselves already for Christ's sake.
 
2012-12-09 03:10:51 PM

mccallcl: LasersHurt: At the core, though, what is it that worries you? The data being collected, or it being misused to harm you?

The data being misused, and the additional complexity being added to cars. I also don't even want the data to be used as expected, because I break the law behind the wheel. I break the law all the time, everyone does. Investigation and prosecution costs keep my daily victimless crime spree of going 48 in a 45 from ruining my life. Automation like this will bury me and many people in red tape, and until a reasonable level of enforcement is worked out, will be applied selectively and with all the accuracy large institutions are famous for.

Just make the cars drive themselves already for Christ's sake.


Current expectations are that some driverless production models will start rolling out around 2015, though I suspect this will vary based on laws and manufacturer's choices. Google's saying the same thing, roughly 5 years. Of course they'll have the boxes, more complexity, and gather MORE data than these do. So your personal desire for them might wane.
 
2012-12-09 03:11:20 PM
I can't wait until insurance companies start requiring dash cams.

Sure Russia has more speeding, worse maintenance, and maybe more stickups than the US, but in my life of driving I have witnessed around 5 events that would be on YouTube had I a dash cam. Multiply that 5 by 200 million drivers gives a large pants-load of videos.
 
2012-12-09 03:13:37 PM

Stone Meadow: APE992: will stick with his 16 year old ride

My '66 Mustang laughs at black boxes.


www.diyautotune.com

My '84 Mazda geeks out with its open-source EFI.

/5 inches of vacuum @ 1500rpm idle, shrieking powercurve into 5-digit range, drivability like a Camry
/try that with a carb
 
2012-12-09 03:15:39 PM
I expect I'll own a post-2010 vehicle by about 2030, and by that time I'll be too old to care if you monitor me driving 14 mph to the pot shop.
 
2012-12-09 03:18:02 PM
These things are rabidly becoming irrelevant anyway. As cameras become cheaper, nearly every major city is putting them on every intersection and every block, and you can bet they will be on every stretch of highway soon enough. At $20 per camera, it's cheaper than most existing monitoring systems, even if all you want to know if how deep the snowfall is.

If everything you do while driving is on camera, how does a black box further intrude on your privacy?
 
2012-12-09 03:20:28 PM

Mister Peejay: Stone Meadow: APE992: will stick with his 16 year old ride

My '66 Mustang laughs at black boxes.

[www.diyautotune.com image 635x376]

My '84 Mazda geeks out with its open-source EFI.

/5 inches of vacuum @ 1500rpm idle, shrieking powercurve into 5-digit range, drivability like a Camry
/try that with a carb


Dude...I said "black" boxes, not shiny ones. ;^)

Actually thinking of converting to MS. OTOH, carbs are easy, and my engine still has points.
 
2012-12-09 03:22:25 PM
Generation_D 2012-12-09 01:50:05 PM

Just imagine a trial lawyer's delight in a bitter custody or divorce getting to subpoena the record of where the other party was on a particular date and time. Imagine the fun.


2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going
.


2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going
.

2. It's not a tracking device for f**k's sake!!
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going
.
 
2012-12-09 03:24:10 PM
The boxes themselves can't be turned off or disabled

www.cheapbikeparts360.com
 
2012-12-09 03:25:47 PM

Kittypie070: Generation_D 2012-12-09 01:50:05 PM

Just imagine a trial lawyer's delight in a bitter custody or divorce getting to subpoena the record of where the other party was on a particular date and time. Imagine the fun.


2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going.

2. It's not a tracking device.
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going.

2. It's not a tracking device for f**k's sake!!
These black boxes are not GPS devices, and do not track where you're going.


So much this. Stop worrying about your black box, and start worrying about the data leaking out of your smartphone, which contains all the info you're paranoid about, except that instead of you legally owning the data, Apple, Google or the app manufacturer owns it.
 
2012-12-09 03:34:25 PM
That's okay. The CAFE standards are going to force Ford to stop putting V8s in regular mustang GT's anyway, so I'll just pick up a used 2013ish.
 
2012-12-09 03:35:41 PM

leviosaurus:

So much this. Stop worrying about your black box, and start worrying about the data leaking out of your smartphone, which contains all the info you're paranoid about, except that instead of you legally owning the data, Apple, Google or the app manufacturer owns it.


Not only that, but people WANT to be tracked! What do you people think you're doing when you're constantly updating social media, or using store points cards? "Hey guys, come track me! Please? Here, let me pay you to know what I'm doing!"
 
2012-12-09 03:45:47 PM

BunkyBrewman: I thought the original reason for black boxes was manufacturers covering their arses when claims that airbags didn't deploy.

The new boxes are going to record everything from your seat position to how loud you were playing the radio. (and everything in between)


As an auto engineer who deals with electronics, odds are if you wreck your car I can get all that of that anyway. I'd just have to look at a bunch of different systems, but given each system does its own error logging I can piece it together. The black box is just a centralized place so the State Police don't have to come by and pay me money to reconstruct it all. Some of it will be in the ECM, some of it will be in the TCM, some if it will elsewhere.

The other change is that tampering with a black box is a federal offense. In most cases if you just decide to wipe your ECM one afternoon or replace it, that isn't a crime unless law enforcement is seeking it as evidence. I had one case where the individual had his car all modded up for racing, hit another car, fled, and then stripped off all the racing mods and tuning work in attempt to hide evidence he was street racing. A well designed black box is going to note that. If you touch the black box odds are you'll be farked under law instantly.

/in the case of the street racer, I was able to prove he flashed the racing tune off the car as we had built a whole level of logging into the car his tool had no idea about or the ability to even write to
//also in the Toyota sudden acceleration example, a well designed black box is going to make it easier to determine if it is the floor mats or some other issue
 
2012-12-09 03:47:46 PM

Smidge204: The boxes themselves can't be turned off or disabled

[www.cheapbikeparts360.com image 300x300]


And when the processor handling the startup sequence fails to detect the box, your car won't start.
 
2012-12-09 03:49:41 PM
what happens in versa stays in versa
or something like that
 
2012-12-09 03:50:26 PM

Mister Peejay: leviosaurus:

So much this. Stop worrying about your black box, and start worrying about the data leaking out of your smartphone, which contains all the info you're paranoid about, except that instead of you legally owning the data, Apple, Google or the app manufacturer owns it.

Not only that, but people WANT to be tracked! What do you people think you're doing when you're constantly updating social media, or using store points cards? "Hey guys, come track me! Please? Here, let me pay you to know what I'm doing!"


Call me paranoid but I refuse to use my debit cards or credit cards whenever I purchase alcohol, ammo and other such things. I always take out cash instead. I really have no justification or reasoning behind it. I am not on any sort of lists I just don't like those purchases being tracked to me.
 
2012-12-09 03:52:19 PM

Stone Meadow:
Dude...I said "black" boxes, not shiny ones. ;^)

Actually thinking of converting to MS. OTOH, carbs are easy, and my engine still has points.


MS is fun if you enjoy that sort of thing, and both simple to tune and remarkably robust at the same time. I've tuned several higher-end ECUs and I feel that MS's tuning software is actually better than all of them, and the hardware doesn't give anything up unless you're looking for that last .5%. (And MS3 looks like it gives you that too, although I haven't played with it yet)

Carbs are easy if you have a low-performance engine (read: smooth idle and drivability) that you can just bolt on a carb and set the idle. After that it takes a kind of knack to play with things that Holley didn't want you to play with, and/or some shockingly not-cheap units. Quick Fuel makes impressive units but I'm not going to pay for it when I can do injection at half the cost, you know?

I used to have some old Fords. I don't blame you for keeping the points, as long as the vacuum advance bushing doesn't wear out every other week.
 
2012-12-09 04:18:17 PM

Mister Peejay: Marcus Aurelius: Most of these black boxes are located under the front passenger seat. Once you know where it is, it is fairly easy to disable or dispose of.

Oops! The cable came out. How did that happen?

Funny, the EDM is usually part of the airbag controller module, which also supplies information to other systems with its sensors, is NEVER positioned in some place like underneath a seat where water can get to it, and if you just unplug it, you disable at least two different networks and you won't even be able to start the car since the BCM and PCM are on opposite ends of the high speed CAN.

But yes, there's a discrete black box that you just unplug.


Yeah, disabling the airbags would be a real drawback.

Disabling the memory chip, though, should have no impact on performance or safety.
 
2012-12-09 04:24:57 PM

NutWrench: This has actually been a requirement on a lot of cars since 2006. My car has one. There's nothing sinister about what they record: vehicle speed, whether or not the gas or brakes pedals are applied, etc. The device has limited memory, it records a couple minutes of data before it get overwritten and stops recording when the airbag is deployed.

The main reason for having it is the make the insurance claims process a lot quicker and cheaper by verifying exactly what was going on at the time of the crash. If someone claims they were doing 20 mph and braking at the time of the accident and the data recorder says they were actually doing a steady 50 mph . . . well . . . you can expect a lot more out-of-court settlements.


That's all well and good, but it ends up being the camel's nose under the tent. In 10 years they'll want full readings on what goes on with the car, and what goes on inside the car.

I don't really care either way. Mo gov'ment, Mo gov'ment...sheeple love this shiat. Thankfully for every needless oversight, there's a brilliant subset of us that know, and find, a way to rip that piece of shiat right the fark out of my car. Good luck, comrade.
 
2012-12-09 04:29:51 PM
When did Americans get so stupid/paranoid?

And if you drive a "fly by wire" car (A Prius, BMW, etc) you already have one of these.
 
2012-12-09 04:30:30 PM
Will it record things like "Hold my beer Buba, watch this"?
 
2012-12-09 04:30:37 PM

titwrench: Mister Peejay: leviosaurus:

So much this. Stop worrying about your black box, and start worrying about the data leaking out of your smartphone, which contains all the info you're paranoid about, except that instead of you legally owning the data, Apple, Google or the app manufacturer owns it.

Not only that, but people WANT to be tracked! What do you people think you're doing when you're constantly updating social media, or using store points cards? "Hey guys, come track me! Please? Here, let me pay you to know what I'm doing!"

Call me paranoid but I refuse to use my debit cards or credit cards whenever I purchase alcohol, ammo and other such things. I always take out cash instead. I really have no justification or reasoning behind it. I am not on any sort of lists I just don't like those purchases being tracked to me.


You are in need of professional help because you are acting on paranoid delusions that you admit have no basis in reality.
 
2012-12-09 04:32:18 PM

Fade2black: NutWrench: This has actually been a requirement on a lot of cars since 2006. My car has one. There's nothing sinister about what they record: vehicle speed, whether or not the gas or brakes pedals are applied, etc. The device has limited memory, it records a couple minutes of data before it get overwritten and stops recording when the airbag is deployed.

The main reason for having it is the make the insurance claims process a lot quicker and cheaper by verifying exactly what was going on at the time of the crash. If someone claims they were doing 20 mph and braking at the time of the accident and the data recorder says they were actually doing a steady 50 mph . . . well . . . you can expect a lot more out-of-court settlements.

That's all well and good, but it ends up being the camel's nose under the tent. In 10 years they'll want full readings on what goes on with the car, and what goes on inside the car.

I don't really care either way. Mo gov'ment, Mo gov'ment...sheeple love this shiat. Thankfully for every needless oversight, there's a brilliant subset of us that know, and find, a way to rip that piece of shiat right the fark out of my car. Good luck, comrade.


Tell us more about your moon bat reverse vampire Masonic musings.
 
2012-12-09 04:38:04 PM

Fade2black: NutWrench: This has actually been a requirement on a lot of cars since 2006. My car has one. There's nothing sinister about what they record: vehicle speed, whether or not the gas or brakes pedals are applied, etc. The device has limited memory, it records a couple minutes of data before it get overwritten and stops recording when the airbag is deployed.

The main reason for having it is the make the insurance claims process a lot quicker and cheaper by verifying exactly what was going on at the time of the crash. If someone claims they were doing 20 mph and braking at the time of the accident and the data recorder says they were actually doing a steady 50 mph . . . well . . . you can expect a lot more out-of-court settlements.

That's all well and good, but it ends up being the camel's nose under the tent. In 10 years they'll want full readings on what goes on with the car, and what goes on inside the car.

I don't really care either way. Mo gov'ment, Mo gov'ment...sheeple love this shiat. Thankfully for every needless oversight, there's a brilliant subset of us that know, and find, a way to rip that piece of shiat right the fark out of my car. Good luck, comrade.


Until it comes to renew registration and they notice the black box is gone. Or your insurance company "asks" for the blackbox data and you have nothing to give them.

ImpendingCynic: dustman81: Watch as insurance companies start requiring policyholders to turn over the blackbox on demand or have their claim denied and/or insurance canceled.

Very likely this will be true. They won't force you to hand over the data, but they'll jack up everyone's premiums and then give generous "discounts" to those who comply.


Progressive is already this with Snapshot. They can tell how fast you're going, the times you drive and if you do any hard braking.
 
2012-12-09 04:39:04 PM
The only thing that worries me about this is that it records the driver's body temperature every 10 minutes. Rectally.
 
2012-12-09 04:43:52 PM
The terrorist have won.
 
2012-12-09 05:01:22 PM

Dwight_Yeast: When did Americans get so stupid/paranoid?

And if you drive a "fly by wire" car (A Prius, BMW, etc) you already have one of these.


The vast majority of cars sold in the US already have these, yeah. It's funny how a lot of people seem to have forgotten about that. Every GM car since the late 90's has one, and pretty much everybody else has adopted them as well.

In fact, if you have a car with one, it probably lowered the cost of your insurance relatively compared to those that don't have them.
 
2012-12-09 05:04:02 PM

SnarfVader: Raharu: 4. Who owns this data?
This is actually the best part about this new law, because it clearly states that you, the car's owner, owns the data.

[i212.photobucket.com image 379x214]


Which does nothing if they get a search warrant
 
kab
2012-12-09 05:18:55 PM
ITT: nanny state fanatics.
 
2012-12-09 05:29:29 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Most of these black boxes are located under the front passenger seat. Once you know where it is, it is fairly easy to disable or dispose of.

Oops! The cable came out. How did that happen?


Then when some idiot hits you and lies about what happens and you have nothing or no one to back up your story....oops.

These are more for your own protection than anything.
 
2012-12-09 05:31:34 PM

Fade2black: That's all well and good, but it ends up being the camel's nose under the tent. In 10 years they'll want full readings on what goes on with the car, and what goes on inside the car.


www.sirlin.net
 
2012-12-09 05:51:36 PM

Raharu:

Call me paranoid but I refuse to use my debit cards or credit cards whenever I purchase alcohol, ammo and other such things. I always take out cash instead. I really have no justification or reasoning behind it. I am not on any sort of lists I just don't like those purchases being tracked to me.

You are in need of professional help because you are acting on paranoid delusions that you admit have no basis in reality.


Not only that, but if you look at the cash you're spending, there are serial numbers on them. When banks receive those bills, the reader tracks the serial numbers. So when you withdraw cash from an ATM, and then the gun store deposits that same cash that evening, the bank has a pretty good idea where you spent it.

/Okay, banks actually aren't monitoring things that closely
//But honestly, there is no reason they couldn't. the technology is there and it isn't difficult.
 
2012-12-09 06:08:18 PM

Hand Banana: Fade2black: That's all well and good, but it ends up being the camel's nose under the tent. In 10 years they'll want full readings on what goes on with the car, and what goes on inside the car.


Yep. Is not to worry drivers, "The legislature has passed the new law requreing all occupants to wear seatbelts, but police will not be allowed to stop drivers for not wearing seat belts."

Time passes...
"The driver was pulled over for not wearing a seat belt."
"Police remind drivers this holiday season that they will be stopping cars for violating the mandatory seat belt law."
"Police have set up road blocks to ticket drivers for not wearing seat belts."

It will be: "Chumly was convicted of contempt of court for tampering with the black box in his car."
 
2012-12-09 06:13:19 PM

Hand Banana: Marcus Aurelius: Most of these black boxes are located under the front passenger seat. Once you know where it is, it is fairly easy to disable or dispose of.

Oops! The cable came out. How did that happen?

Then when some idiot hits you and lies about what happens and you have nothing or no one to back up your story....oops.

These are more for your own protection than anything.


No, actually, their mandated use is for the insurance companies. If it were for my benefit, I could choose to turn it off.
 
2012-12-09 06:13:42 PM

netringer: Yep. Is not to worry drivers, "The legislature has passed the new law requreing all occupants to wear seatbelts, but police will not be allowed to stop drivers for not wearing seat belts."

Time passes...
"The driver was pulled over for not wearing a seat belt."
"Police remind drivers this holiday season that they will be stopping cars for violating the mandatory seat belt law."
"Police have set up road blocks to ticket drivers for not wearing seat belts."


Not wearing a seat belt is very important to me. Jack-booted thugs are simply trying to deny me all the great benefits of not wearing a seat belt.
 
2012-12-09 06:21:15 PM
The argument doesn't make sense. If almost every car in America already has one, then what is the benefit of mandating it? To drive the remaining car makes that don't have it out of production? How's that for job creation? Sounds like mandating that every faucet in the country be able to dispense water. Most of them already do. I guess there isn't any important business to do like get a budget together and stuff?
 
2012-12-09 06:32:13 PM

Benjimin_Dover: what is the benefit of mandating it?


Wild speculation: The insurance industry wants it. As with most insurance industry mandates, the benefit goes to the insurance industry in making it harder to collect on a claim, and the expense goes to us in both money and privacy loss.

Then again, apart from the "slippery slope" argument, is the "few seconds before and after a crash" really an invasion of privacy?
 
2012-12-09 07:02:07 PM

This About That: Then again, apart from the "slippery slope" argument, is the "few seconds before and after a crash" really an invasion of privacy?


If the vehicle owner owns the data and it can be used against them in court without consent, I could see that as a violation of either the 4th or 5th amendments.
 
2012-12-09 07:18:43 PM

Saturn5: This About That: Then again, apart from the "slippery slope" argument, is the "few seconds before and after a crash" really an invasion of privacy?

If the vehicle owner owns the data and it can be used against them in court without consent, I could see that as a violation of either the 4th or 5th amendments.


4. Who owns this data?
This is actually the best part about this new law, because it clearly states that you, the car's owner, owns the data. I don't think any of us are thrilled about having these things in our cars, but if it's going to happen anyway, a law like this is needed to protect car owners. I'm a firm believer that any and all data your car generates should be the easily-accessible property of the owner. As the IIHS says on their site about this:

EDRs and the data they store belong to vehicle owners. Police, insurers, researchers, automakers and others may gain access to the data with owner consent. Without consent, access may be obtained through a court order. For example, in a Florida criminal case involving a vehicular manslaughter charge, the police obtained a warrant to access the EDR data.

For crashes that don't involve litigation, especially when police or insurers are interested in assessing fault, insurers may be able to access the EDRs in their policyholders' vehicles based on provisions in the insurance contract requiring policyholders to cooperate with the insurer. However, some states prohibit insurance contracts from requiring policyholders to consent to access.

I'd be more concerned about what private insurance companies would do with this data than I am what the police would do with it, so if you're in a state that allows your insurance company to require you to let them access the data, make sure you carefully read your contract.
 
2012-12-09 07:27:08 PM

Saturn5: This About That: Then again, apart from the "slippery slope" argument, is the "few seconds before and after a crash" really an invasion of privacy?

If the vehicle owner owns the data and it can be used against them in court without consent, I could see that as a violation of either the 4th or 5th amendments.


Can't be 4th, due process of law is being followed.

As far as the 5th, well, good luck with that. Theiy can subpeona the internet history of your computer, which is a much clearer violation of the 5th amendment.
 
2012-12-09 07:38:56 PM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: Can't be 4th, due process of law is being followed.


IF a warrant is used to obtain the data.
Like Raharu mentioned, there's also the concern about insurance companies use and access to the data.

The bottom line is, you may "own" the data, but you don't "control" the data. If you truly owned the data, you could erase it if there wasn't any pending litigation. Give the option to erase it as easily as clearing a browser cache and then owning the data might mean something. The police can seize a computer with a warrant, but you can add or delete data from it at will if not under investigation for anything.
 
2012-12-09 07:52:41 PM

titwrench: Mister Peejay: leviosaurus:

So much this. Stop worrying about your black box, and start worrying about the data leaking out of your smartphone, which contains all the info you're paranoid about, except that instead of you legally owning the data, Apple, Google or the app manufacturer owns it.

Not only that, but people WANT to be tracked! What do you people think you're doing when you're constantly updating social media, or using store points cards? "Hey guys, come track me! Please? Here, let me pay you to know what I'm doing!"

Call me paranoid but I refuse to use my debit cards or credit cards whenever I purchase alcohol, ammo and other such things. I always take out cash instead. I really have no justification or reasoning behind it. I am not on any sort of lists I just don't like those purchases being tracked to me.


Credit agencies do track what purchases you make and use it to determine your credit score and worthiness etc. Buying a lot of booze is a negative, buying felt furniture protectors or flood insurance is a positive.
 
2012-12-09 07:54:28 PM

This About That: Benjimin_Dover: what is the benefit of mandating it?

Wild speculation: The insurance industry wants it. As with most insurance industry mandates, the benefit goes to the insurance industry in making it harder to collect on a claim, and the expense goes to us in both money and privacy loss.

Then again, apart from the "slippery slope" argument, is the "few seconds before and after a crash" really an invasion of privacy?


I really don't have any privacy concerns about it. My concerns are in the same realm of why our country is going to shiat. We have lawmakers more concerned about passing laws about National Donut Day and making sure that the remaining 2% of the cars that don't have something have it. The reason they don't have it already (seeing how almost every other model in a maker's lineup has them) is going to be because you can't just bolt the box on. It needs to be fed with sensors and networks and it obviously costs more to retroactively add that into a Geo Metro than what it's worth. The makers want them in their cars. That is obviously clear to even the dimmest bulb just by looking at the percentage of their fleets that have them and that is WITHOUT a mandate. But not people in Washington. Their bulbs are less than dim as in burnt out. Let those models go until they no longer are produced on the schedule that was already in place. Don't make the makers cut up the assembly lines and send people packing because powerticians get a pantload of cum down their legs passing laws like this.
 
2012-12-09 07:55:37 PM

Dead for Tax Reasons: i guess i'll stick to driving my 20yo car then


Have fun with that.

I've driven a few cars and the newer they are (generally speaking) the better and safer they are. Every once in a while I see an old movie where car is being driven fast and hard on dangerous roads and I shudder to think what it would be like to be in an accident in a car like that.

And all the time you see stories in the news of horrible car crashes where people that you think should have died just walk away with barely a scratch.

I really don't have any problem with these data recorders since they will show I was driving reasonably and if for some reason I wasn't driving reasonably then chances are if it caused an accident I should take the blame.

Maybe some of you idiots/assholes will be less likely to drive like idiots/assholes if you know you're being recorded.
 
2012-12-09 08:13:32 PM
Where I come from, "black boxes" have nothing to do with cars...
 
2012-12-09 09:14:23 PM

Smidge204: The boxes themselves can't be turned off or disabled

[www.cheapbikeparts360.com image 300x300]


They'll be rigged up in the ECU, and wired like the bloody tire pressure system - if you just disconnect it the light comes on by default. In the case of the 'black box', in order to cut it you'd have to cut out enough of the car's brain that it'll no longer function right.
 
2012-12-09 10:10:27 PM

lewismarktwo: titwrench: Mister Peejay: leviosaurus:

So much this. Stop worrying about your black box, and start worrying about the data leaking out of your smartphone, which contains all the info you're paranoid about, except that instead of you legally owning the data, Apple, Google or the app manufacturer owns it.

Not only that, but people WANT to be tracked! What do you people think you're doing when you're constantly updating social media, or using store points cards? "Hey guys, come track me! Please? Here, let me pay you to know what I'm doing!"

Call me paranoid but I refuse to use my debit cards or credit cards whenever I purchase alcohol, ammo and other such things. I always take out cash instead. I really have no justification or reasoning behind it. I am not on any sort of lists I just don't like those purchases being tracked to me.

Credit agencies do track what purchases you make and use it to determine your credit score and worthiness etc. Buying a lot of booze is a negative, buying felt furniture protectors or flood insurance is a positive.


How do they know what you're buying? Your card company and bank can tell what stores you are spending money in, so a liquor store will almost certainly be alcohol but if they get a $25 transaction from Walmart how can they tell if it is whiskey or floor polish? All they get is a date and an amount.
 
2012-12-09 10:11:58 PM
Some day, we'll look back and be AMAZED that they ever "let" us drive ourselves around in the first place. And it won't even be the government that takes it away- it'll be the g.d. insurance companies.
 
2012-12-09 10:17:18 PM

jaytkay: netringer: Yep. Is not to worry drivers, "The legislature has passed the new law requreing all occupants to wear seatbelts, but police will not be allowed to stop drivers for not wearing seat belts."

Time passes...
"The driver was pulled over for not wearing a seat belt."
"Police remind drivers this holiday season that they will be stopping cars for violating the mandatory seat belt law."
"Police have set up road blocks to ticket drivers for not wearing seat belts."

Not wearing a seat belt is very important to me. Jack-booted thugs are simply trying to deny me all the great benefits of not wearing a seat belt.


I knew I should have said that. I always wore a seat belt. Even before the laws.

The POINT is that there is a camel's nose in the tent. Mor eliek they will drop teh promises when nobody's looking. Nobody covers the quiet bill amendment that says now the cops CAN pull you over simply for not wearing the seatbelt.
 
2012-12-09 10:43:28 PM
FBI trawls library records, phone calls, email: "What do you have to hide?!?"

Govt. can tell if you're driving recklessly: "ZOMG MY RIGHTS."

Anyone who was a goosestepping Iraq Murder Party advocate, and full of "only terrorists have something to hide", and are now upset about this, are cordially invited to DIAF. I just don't care about your red-eyed trembling butthurt.
 
2012-12-09 10:47:23 PM

SnarfVader: Raharu: 4. Who owns this data?
This is actually the best part about this new law, because it clearly states that you, the car's owner, owns the data.

[i212.photobucket.com image 379x214]


Does this mean I have access to it all the time and can erase it whenever I want?
 
2012-12-09 10:52:12 PM
Um... a "black box" is just the PID settings for control of the brakes and airbag system with a duration of maybe ten or fifteen seconds, numbnuts, any time the data is being retrieved it's because your car already crashed. If you crashed your damned vehicle, you can't argue that whatever you were doing is your own private business-- by definition it was dangerous enough to easily harm someone.

Basically if you're seriously worried about this violating your privacy, maybe you should be under monitoring, because this isn't something that'll alter how private your driving habits are unless you're insultingly obvious in your gross negligence.
 
2012-12-10 01:50:37 AM

GentlemanJ: Where I come from, "black boxes" have nothing to do with cars...


On a Gold Coast slave ship bound for cotton fields?
 
2012-12-10 02:02:28 AM
Ill rip it out
 
2012-12-10 04:55:52 AM
As long as it's only read after you're in an accident, I have no problem with this at all.

If they're going to be used to go hunting for violations drivers have made while not in the presence of a police officer and did not result in an accident, then I've got a serious problem with it.
 
2012-12-10 07:02:20 AM
Y'all are turbonerds.
 
2012-12-10 07:10:58 AM
If it triggers a bolt gun to the groin of some jackass rubbernecking on the DC beltway, I'm all for it.
 
2012-12-10 07:28:35 AM

Weaver95: "By understanding how drivers respond in a crash and whether key safety systems operate properly, NHTSA and automakers can make our vehicles and our roadways even safer," said U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood. "This proposal will give us the critical insight and information we need to save more lives."

the legislature is gonna think this is totally awesome...right up until one of them gets caught driving drunk and their black box recorder verifies they wiped out a bunch of nuns by driving stupidly. THEN we'll see 'privacy concerns' get written into the laws again.


Except for the "everyone except us" clause that they usually put into laws like this. Just like the "no using a cell phone while driving - except for "official business" for police."
 
2012-12-10 07:30:22 AM

Happy Hours: Dead for Tax Reasons: i guess i'll stick to driving my 20yo car then

Have fun with that.

I've driven a few cars and the newer they are (generally speaking) the better and safer they are. Every once in a while I see an old movie where car is being driven fast and hard on dangerous roads and I shudder to think what it would be like to be in an accident in a car like that.

And all the time you see stories in the news of horrible car crashes where people that you think should have died just walk away with barely a scratch.

I really don't have any problem with these data recorders since they will show I was driving reasonably and if for some reason I wasn't driving reasonably then chances are if it caused an accident I should take the blame.

Maybe some of you idiots/assholes will be less likely to drive like idiots/assholes if you know you're being recorded.


I do have fun with it, thanks
 
2012-12-10 08:10:29 AM

fluffy2097: As long as it's only read after you're in an accident, I have no problem with this at all.

If they're going to be used to go hunting for violations drivers have made while not in the presence of a police officer and did not result in an accident, then I've got a serious problem with it.


Which is basically the issue some people have with it. Follow the money.
 
2012-12-10 08:23:34 AM
Since I'm not driving a Gremlin my car already monitors and records acceleration, braking, steering, speed and numerous engine inputs and outputs which are stored for a period of time to allow for troubleshooting in the event of a problem. It's very useful if you have the tools to read out the data.

People worried about this are very stupid people.
 
2012-12-10 12:21:10 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Most of these black boxes are located under the front passenger seat. Once you know where it is, it is fairly easy to disable or dispose of.

Oops! The cable came out. How did that happen?


Well, unless theres a trigger in it that sends a signal to the main ECU causing the car not to start if the black box is unplugged. Very simple thing, much like the trigger that keeps the car from starting in anything but neutral or park.


pxlboy: fluffy2097: As long as it's only read after you're in an accident, I have no problem with this at all.

If they're going to be used to go hunting for violations drivers have made while not in the presence of a police officer and did not result in an accident, then I've got a serious problem with it.

Which is basically the issue some people have with it. Follow the money.


Excuse me sir, can you please step out of the vehicle while I scan your ECU for traffic violations? As much as it could generate money, it would be a very time consuming thing for officers to do. Also expensive, as every cruiser would have to have a portable ECU scanner in it, along with time to train the officers.

Now, I could see it happening another way. Some states (NC for example) use an ECU scan as an emissions test during annual vehicle inspections. It would be possible for them to make a copy of the data and forward it to law enforcement. Again time consuming as they would have to pay someone to go through all the data to determine what was worth sending an officer to issue a citation for.

All in all Ill go in with the "unlikely to be used by police" crowd.
 
2012-12-10 01:04:39 PM

Kraftwerk Orange: Generation_D: Marcus Aurelius: Most of these black boxes are located under the front passenger seat. Once you know where it is, it is fairly easy to disable or dispose of.

Oops! The cable came out. How did that happen?

And you committed a crime similar to operating a motor vehicle without insurance. How did that happen.

Hey, sodas sometimes get spilled...


As far as I've read they can't be disabled without major work as they are tied into your cars computer so much that many won't even start without it.
 
2012-12-10 01:31:32 PM

fluffy2097: As long as it's only read after you're in an accident, I have no problem with this at all.

If they're going to be used to go hunting for violations drivers have made while not in the presence of a police officer and did not result in an accident, then I've got a serious problem with it.


The big problem is in the 4 states and the District of Columbia where they use the legal concept of contributory negligence. Under that principle if the victim contributes in any way to an accident, even 1% of the blame, they cannot collect damages.

For example, a trucking company owner hires his 17 year old alcoholic nephew without a CDL to drive a semi without proper maintenance, makes him work a triple shift and gives him meth to stay awake. The truck is travelling a twice the speed limit when it hits your car at an intersection. If the blackbox says you did not come to a complete stop at the stop sign, the trucking company's insurance company doesn't have to pay a cent.

Most states use the concept of comparative negligence. If you are 50% responsible, the damages are reduced by half. You can bet if this is allowed Insurance companies will spend billions to try to get the other states to switch to contributory negligence because in almost every case the victim in car accident has done something to contribute in some way to the accident. rolling stop at a stop sign, driven 5 mph over the speed limit, ignored the check breaks idiot light, or looked away from the road to change the radio channel. all of these things will be logged and availible for use against you in court.
 
2012-12-10 01:53:38 PM

dustman81: Progressive is already this with Snapshot. They can tell how fast you're going, the times you drive and if you do any hard braking.


Which is kind of messed up for places like Jacksonville. Everybody has to do more hard braking than they'ld like because nobody knows how to drive.
 
2012-12-10 04:32:39 PM
Happy Hours:
Maybe some of you idiots/assholes will be less likely to drive like idiots/assholes if you know you're being recorded.


I run my own HD dash-cam (gopro) in the truck for my own liability protection after seeing all the Russian footage on LiveLeak. (well, that and cops lie) And I do have to say that I do drive much more mindful of traffic laws since I know I'm actively recording myself.

You might be on to something.
 
2012-12-10 07:34:22 PM

moike: Happy Hours:
Maybe some of you idiots/assholes will be less likely to drive like idiots/assholes if you know you're being recorded.

I run my own HD dash-cam (gopro) in the truck for my own liability protection after seeing all the Russian footage on LiveLeak. (well, that and cops lie) And I do have to say that I do drive much more mindful of traffic laws since I know I'm actively recording myself.

You might be on to something.


Except that these boxes are already in most cars on the road. Even with this mandate most people won't know they are there and won't be so easily impressible.
 
2012-12-11 08:23:18 AM

titwrench: Call me paranoid but I refuse to use my debit cards or credit cards whenever I purchase alcohol, ammo and other such things. I always take out cash instead. I really have no justification or reasoning behind it. I am not on any sort of lists I just don't like those purchases being tracked to me.


As a friend of mine once said to me, "It's only paranoia if you're wrong."
 
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