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(The Daily Beast)   Why we need to start having a lot more babies right now. Wait, this is Fark. Why OTHER PEOPLE need to start having a lot more babies right now   (thedailybeast.com) divider line 167
    More: Interesting, Ross Douthat, other people, per capita incomes, Conor Friedersdorf, social cohesion, public investment, time horizon, better things to do  
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12908 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Dec 2012 at 11:50 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-09 12:21:59 PM
We are running out of cocaine. If we don't find some more cocaine soon then we won't be able to function at work tomorrow. Our entire life is built around scoring and using cocaine. The fact that we are running out of cocaine is a big problem, and you are a moron if you think that running out of cocaine is maybe good for us because we shouldn't be using so much cocaine anyway, just look at what happened to Shady Mike when he OD'd on bath salts after quitting cocaine. If we run out of cocaine we could end up just like him.
 
GBB
2012-12-09 12:22:12 PM
Ross Douthat, Dou exactly that.
 
2012-12-09 12:23:57 PM
Why we need to start having a lot more babies right now. Wait, this is Fark. Why OTHER PEOPLE need to start having a lot more babies right now

Fat people don't have such bad looking babies. Not necessarily.

/that was the joke?
//right?
 
2012-12-09 12:26:58 PM
As yes, immigration. The silver bullet that will cure all economic woes, and also provide desperately-needed trendy eateries for yuppies.

The only problem is that those immigrants bring baggage with them, as Europe has been finding out over the past few decades..
 
2012-12-09 12:27:53 PM

DrunkenBob: RexTalionis: Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.

The Northern Peninsula Albino is a unique, rare creature in the world. Their skin displays a rainbow of colors from the deficiency in pigment. The rest of the monotone browns should strive to achieve the multicolored brilliance of the Caucasian. That's why they need to outbreed the brownies.


mlkshk.comf-e-a-r-forums.2310788.n4.nabble.com
 
2012-12-09 12:29:42 PM
Anybody worried there aren't enough people is more than welcome to ride along on my morning commute.

/Fingers crossed for a lethal pandemic to do some weeding out.
 
2012-12-09 12:32:23 PM

Theaetetus: I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.


Aaannnddd done.

Declining birthrate is not a problem for generations unless you are scared about brown people - who are genetically incapable of being as civilized as you- marrying your kids (your good, white bred kids).
 
2012-12-09 12:33:27 PM
i554.photobucket.com 

Fellow Republicans, do your duty and reproduce!
 
2012-12-09 12:33:47 PM

WhippingBoy: violetvolume: Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.

I hate to break it to you, but problems aren't solved by wishful thinking...


Uh.... what?
 
2012-12-09 12:35:33 PM
This is so farked. Reliance on growth is never sustainable. People that think like this are farked in the head. Overpopulation is the root of every problem we face as a species. fark these people.
 
2012-12-09 12:35:34 PM
api.ning.com
 
2012-12-09 12:35:36 PM
FTFA: But this doesn't quite work, because our population will not simply get smaller; it will also get older. If everyone was going to suddenly die at 45, we might be able to get the requisite productivity boost

img253.imageshack.us

Renew on Carrousel!
 
2012-12-09 12:36:04 PM
it's all a moot point in 13 days any way

/ammirite?
 
2012-12-09 12:38:15 PM

Surpheon: Theaetetus: I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Aaannnddd done.

Declining birthrate is not a problem for generations unless you are scared about brown people - who are genetically incapable of being as civilized as you- marrying your kids (your good, white bred kids).


Or maybe people want to preserve their cultural identity. I guess only non-white people are allowed to do that, though.
 
2012-12-09 12:39:35 PM

RobertBruce: Hell, massive regressive societal changes will help. Women, go home and raise the kids again. Men get the jobs, children are raised in a civilized manner, and probably most importantly children are born when women are younger which is far healthier for both mother and child.


Does a society going away due to a low birthrate not count as a regressive societal change?
 
2012-12-09 12:40:36 PM

violetvolume: WhippingBoy: violetvolume: Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.

I hate to break it to you, but problems aren't solved by wishful thinking...

Uh.... what?


Naively stating that "there is no problem" and that "IT WILL ALL BE OK" doesn't necessarily make it true.
 
2012-12-09 12:43:23 PM

hubiestubert: Well, there's that idea, or we could accept changing economic conditions and limitations on land, and look to more sustainable economic models...


Done in one.

\might be the first time I've done the "done in one" tidbit
 
2012-12-09 12:43:32 PM

WhippingBoy: Surpheon: Theaetetus: I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Aaannnddd done.

Declining birthrate is not a problem for generations unless you are scared about brown people - who are genetically incapable of being as civilized as you- marrying your kids (your good, white bred kids).

Or maybe people want to preserve their cultural identity. I guess only non-white people are allowed to do that, though.


"Preserve your cultural identity-quit putting your dick in brown people!"
 
2012-12-09 12:44:08 PM
This planet needs fewer people, not more, and global warming (or whatever it's called these days) is how it's going to happen.

Unless we wise up and start using condoms.
 
2012-12-09 12:46:14 PM
Given the choice between outlawing birth control and outlawing usury. I'm going to go with banning usury. Sure the crazy world of growth and high finance we've enjoyed for the past couple of centuries will go down the tube. But in terms of the real physical economy, fewer people per square foot of arable land has to mean more wealth per person. Will the transition be hard, sure, but ultimately it's necessary.
 
2012-12-09 12:49:12 PM

RobertBruce: Hell, massive regressive societal changes will help. Women, go home and raise the kids again. Men get the jobs, children are raised in a civilized manner, and probably most importantly children are born when women are younger which is far healthier for both mother and child.


The problem with this is that it's near impossable for a family to function on one income. My husband works full time and makes pretty good money, yet we still rent and can't afford to buy a house, and I work part time in the evenings anyway. For now, our one child is all that we can afford/have room for.
 
2012-12-09 12:49:52 PM

WhippingBoy: Or maybe people want to preserve their cultural identity. I guess only non-white people are allowed to do that, though.


What exactly would that cultural identity be? Be specific, what is this valuable white cultural identity that brown people don't adopt after coming to this country? Worried about Muslim Socialist Kenyans taking over the country?
 
2012-12-09 12:50:59 PM

FourPetesake: RobertBruce: Hell, massive regressive societal changes will help. Women, go home and raise the kids again. Men get the jobs, children are raised in a civilized manner, and probably most importantly children are born when women are younger which is far healthier for both mother and child.

The problem with this is that it's near impossable for a family to function on one income. My husband works full time and makes pretty good money, yet we still rent and can't afford to buy a house, and I work part time in the evenings anyway. For now, our one child is all that we can afford/have room for.


In some cases, yes. In most cases, it all comes down to priorities.
 
2012-12-09 12:51:03 PM

FourPetesake: RobertBruce: Hell, massive regressive societal changes will help. Women, go home and raise the kids again. Men get the jobs, children are raised in a civilized manner, and probably most importantly children are born when women are younger which is far healthier for both mother and child.

The problem with this is that it's near impossable for a family to function on one income. My husband works full time and makes pretty good money, yet we still rent and can't afford to buy a house, and I work part time in the evenings anyway. For now, our one child is all that we can afford/have room for.


Yeah, I doubt employers will suddenly double wages if the workforces halves by all the women leaving it, or match with whatever proportions thereabouts.
 
2012-12-09 12:51:36 PM

Cyrusv10: Yeah, but why do people in third world countries insist on having more babies?

/makes no sense


Uneducated women who have few rights in their homelands or opportunities in life except to get married are the ones having babies, many of the times not by choice. And in many of these countries, these women don't have the right to refuse to have sex with their husbands, and sometimes little or no access to affordable birth control.

As has been found time and time again: Educate women and give them opportunities and birth rates drop.
 
2012-12-09 12:55:19 PM
Yes but that would require taking care of someone else for a long period of time, which involves actual, *gulp* work. This might result in developing empathy and a sense that things will go on without us.

Heavens.
 
2012-12-09 12:57:14 PM
Isn't the world population still small enough to fit into the state of Texas? Whatever happened to that eyeopening concept?
 
2012-12-09 01:00:41 PM

Surpheon: WhippingBoy: Or maybe people want to preserve their cultural identity. I guess only non-white people are allowed to do that, though.

What exactly would that cultural identity be? Be specific, what is this valuable white cultural identity that brown people don't adopt after coming to this country? Worried about Muslim Socialist Kenyans taking over the country?


Anything anyone identifies with that can be traced to their past culture. Holidays, traditions, way of life, etc.
For example, in western society, Christmas is a very big deal (to the religious and non-religous alike). Governments, television, shopping malls, etc. make a big deal of it, all of which affect the cultural landscape and experience. If the demographic changed so that 95% of the country was muslim (for example), I suspect that this particular cultural experience would be significantly diminished.
 
2012-12-09 01:01:50 PM
Young populations are better than aged populations. As far as overpopulation is concerned, the death rate is more of a problem than the birth rate. That makes the issue stickier.
 
2012-12-09 01:02:08 PM

Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: I hope that all of the people who don't think this is a problem are ok with Medicare and Social Security not existing when it comes time for them to collect. We don't need massive population growth, but you need young workers to support those programs. Otherwise they go away. And I'd better not see you screaming that they shouldn't ever be cut, either.



This is like arguing if the porridge is too hot or too cold...

The first thing that has to happen in ANY population discussion, is each party has to state what they think the population should be in 5 years, 10 years, 25 years, 50 years, etc. If the growth (or decline) graph that you're pursuing just doesn't make sense, throwing around arguments is useless.
 
2012-12-09 01:02:44 PM
Look, while I disagree with Douthat's conclusion ("Less babies means less money! Get rich by having babies!"), I would agree that there are a lot of societal changes that are occuring that are having a downward pressure on the birth rate.

These include:

-young adults having anxiety about divorce ("divorce is bad! divorce hurts kids! divorce rates are high! don't get divorced")

-less time for child-rearing in a two-income economy ("dad works, mom works, childcare services are expensive")

-pressure to raise whiz-kids while allowing little time for childrearing ("you're supposed to have kids when you're young, fertile, and broke? fark that")

-more choice and control regarding conception ("love then marriage then baby in baby carriage instead of back of chevy-oops")

-an economy contracting to the point that young people have to choose whether to maintain their customary standard of living or have children ("well I can keep on buying an iPhone every two years, like when I was living with my parents, or I can have a kid and go shopping at goodwill for the next 10 years")

-an economic and tax system that doesn't deal with these realities ("healthcare linked to employment, low credits for child rearing, laughably low effective top tax bracket rates for capital income, higher taxes on labor income, low top-tax bracket effective rates for labor income, a corporate-friendly maternity/paternity leave policy, a system of laws and policies prioritizing production/GDP over quality of life")

Again while Douthat is kind of making several HUGE leaps of cognitive faith ("including the understated 'white people need to have more kids to offset the brown people'"), he does bring up something that I think needs to be addressed.

/I want to have kids some day, but I don't feel like I'm in a stable enough position to even think about it
//I'm a 27 year old white male
 
2012-12-09 01:03:37 PM

Cyrusv10: Yeah, but why do people in third world countries insist on having more babies?

/makes no sense


More kids to tend the crops and work the land.

/no, really.
 
2012-12-09 01:03:52 PM

BokChoy: The only problem is that those immigrants bring baggage with them, as Europe has been finding out over the past few decades..


Um, the US is composed (nearly) entirely of immigrants. Europe's problem with immigrants is that they made it entirely clear from the outset that the Turks, North Africans, Pakistanis and others would never, ever be considered residents of those European nations. That led to ghettos, and then to lots of the problems that they're having now.

The US is much, much better than that at assimilating groups of people and making them feel like they're us. Not perfect, but much better.
 
2012-12-09 01:04:34 PM
i'd love to, but nowadays lots of folks have to choose between getting an education and having a family. i chose education. we'll see how that pans out.
 
2012-12-09 01:05:16 PM

WhippingBoy: violetvolume: WhippingBoy: violetvolume: Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.

I hate to break it to you, but problems aren't solved by wishful thinking...

Uh.... what?

Naively stating that "there is no problem" and that "IT WILL ALL BE OK" doesn't necessarily make it true.


Do YOU think there's a problem? Do you think all this alarmist stuff about the economy and innovation and everything will actually happen? Sure it COULD, and then there'd be a problem. But a dip in the birth rate during a recession is neither unheard of nor an issue. In fact, it makes sense. People just want to freak out about stuff, and "freaking out about women and babies" is always a topic that's sure to get people's dander up.
 
2012-12-09 01:06:03 PM

Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: if the US, Europe, and Japan are all competing for immigrants... does immigration solve our problem? Probably aren't enough to go around.


Japan's immigration problem is that there is so very little of it, by design. That's why they're busy developing robots to take care of old people. And 'Probably aren't enough to go around'? The first world, where people want to live, currently constitutes roughly a fifth of the worlds population. Enough people isn't a problem, quite the opposite.
 
2012-12-09 01:09:45 PM

RexTalionis: Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.


That's like a fortune 500 company complaining their profits declined last year. They are still Profits. And the world population is still increasing - at a phenomenal rate, compared to any other time in history.

Fixing the world's problems my increasing population is akin to deficit spending. You're only delaying the problem for the next generation to solve.
 
2012-12-09 01:12:38 PM

violetvolume: WhippingBoy: violetvolume: WhippingBoy: violetvolume: Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.

I hate to break it to you, but problems aren't solved by wishful thinking...

Uh.... what?

Naively stating that "there is no problem" and that "IT WILL ALL BE OK" doesn't necessarily make it true.

Do YOU think there's a problem? Do you think all this alarmist stuff about the economy and innovation and everything will actually happen? Sure it COULD, and then there'd be a problem. But a dip in the birth rate during a recession is neither unheard of nor an issue. In fact, it makes sense. People just want to freak out about stuff, and "freaking out about women and babies" is always a topic that's sure to get people's dander up.


I don't think all this "alarmist stuff about the economy and innovation and everything" will actually happen, I think it IS happening right now. You must be one of the privileged ones who wasn't unduly affected by the "recession".

Whether or not having more babies will fix, things, I don't know...
 
2012-12-09 01:13:36 PM

WhippingBoy: Surpheon: Theaetetus: I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Aaannnddd done.

Declining birthrate is not a problem for generations unless you are scared about brown people - who are genetically incapable of being as civilized as you- marrying your kids (your good, white bred kids).

Or maybe people want to preserve their cultural identity. I guess only non-white people are allowed to do that, though.


As an Irish-American in Massachusetts, I find your complaint amusing. You wanna preserve your culture? Celebrate it.
 
2012-12-09 01:16:29 PM
"Why we need to start having a lot more WHITE babies right now."

Because true Americans are white and their control of the US and their rightful place will be taken away unless their women start doing their duty.

This is the problem Israel faces. - if they don't keep down their Muslim/Christian population then in the future Jews will no longer control their country. This is the real issue that is fueling much of the problems in the mid-east. Ultimately when Jews assimilate it destroys Judaism.
 
2012-12-09 01:27:57 PM

ptelg: Yes but that would require taking care of someone else for a long period of time, which involves actual, *gulp* work. This might result in developing empathy and a sense that things will go on without us.

Heavens.


If you think that you need to bring another person into the world in order to be able to develop things like "empathy" and "a sense of things going on without you" maybe the problem is with you.
 
2012-12-09 01:30:25 PM

HairBolus: This is the problem Israel faces. - if they don't keep down their Muslim/Christian population then in the future Jews will no longer control their country. This is the real issue that is fueling much of the problems in the mid-east. Ultimately when Jews assimilate it destroys Judaism.


Ric Romero already reported on this.

What's really shocking is that Israel has flat out admitted that they're trying to prevent Palestianians voting for that same reason with statements like "demographics timebomb" and yet other countries like the US support that kind of discriminatory behavior.
 
2012-12-09 01:37:51 PM
Maybe if it wasn't so expensive to have kids, more people my age who are not on the dole would have them.

-Daycare costs are almost as much as college education
-Public schools suck so much you either buy your way into a good district or pay for private
-I live in Canada so I'm lucky to get paid mat leave, US is lucky if you get a month
-House and Rent prices are sky-high so more kids = more space
-I still have student loans to pay off, i'm lucky I took out a pittance to boot.

If we didn't have 20 years of stagnated wages it might be doable, but not now.
 
2012-12-09 01:37:54 PM
Meh, the bugs are gonna get us in the end. Already seeing the beginnings of the next plague in hospitals around the US.

Mother Nature can take care of herself.
 
2012-12-09 01:38:13 PM
img2.timeinc.net
 
2012-12-09 01:40:13 PM

shortymac: Maybe if it wasn't so expensive to have kids, more people my age who are not on the dole would have them.

-Daycare costs are almost as much as college education
-Public schools suck so much you either buy your way into a good district or pay for private
-I live in Canada so I'm lucky to get paid mat leave, US is lucky if you get a month
-House and Rent prices are sky-high so more kids = more space
-I still have student loans to pay off, i'm lucky I took out a pittance to boot.

If we didn't have 20 years of stagnated wages it might be doable, but not now.


We do live in interesting times. I'm curious to see how the lack of entry level jobs that require a college education are going to effect college enrollment and their rediculous tuition rates.
 
2012-12-09 01:45:24 PM

WhippingBoy: Anything anyone identifies with that can be traced to their past culture. Holidays, traditions, way of life, etc.
For example, in western society, Christmas is a very big deal (to the religious and non-religous alike). Governments, television, shopping malls, etc. make a big deal of it, all of which affect the cultural landscape and experience. If the demographic changed so that 95% of the country was muslim (for example), I suspect that this particular cultural experience would be significantly diminished.


You'd miss The Little Drummer Boy on loop in the mall? Well, I'll give you credit for being shallow rather than racist.
 
2012-12-09 01:47:14 PM
The author is a farking moron. More people will not grow the economy if THERE ARE NO JOBS TO GIVE THEM. The marketplace is already supersaturated with labor. More people will just mean more mouths to feed, via welfare, and a lower standard of living for everyone.

Robots will be doing almost everything soon enough. We already replace cops with traffic cameras, assembly workers with robots, and (coming soon) RFID chips to simply deduct from your bank account whatever you walk out of a store with, eliminating the need for retail workers. We need fewer people, not more. Population decline would be a good thing, if only it were actually happening.
 
2012-12-09 01:51:41 PM

unyon: Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: if the US, Europe, and Japan are all competing for immigrants... does immigration solve our problem? Probably aren't enough to go around.

Japan's immigration problem is that there is so very little of it, by design. That's why they're busy developing robots to take care of old people. And 'Probably aren't enough to go around'? The first world, where people want to live, currently constitutes roughly a fifth of the worlds population. Enough people isn't a problem, quite the opposite.


Right, but just the fact that they're talking about allowing more of it shows that they perceive that they're in a huge hole and need to change in multiple ways.
 
2012-12-09 01:52:06 PM
The future looks bleak. It will consist of only politicians and gov't employees.
 
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