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(The Daily Beast)   Why we need to start having a lot more babies right now. Wait, this is Fark. Why OTHER PEOPLE need to start having a lot more babies right now   (thedailybeast.com) divider line 167
    More: Interesting, Ross Douthat, other people, per capita incomes, Conor Friedersdorf, social cohesion, public investment, time horizon, better things to do  
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12913 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Dec 2012 at 11:50 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-09 08:55:45 AM  
Well, there's that idea, or we could accept changing economic conditions and limitations on land, and look to more sustainable economic models...
 
2012-12-09 09:05:46 AM  
Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.
 
2012-12-09 09:17:31 AM  

hubiestubert: Well, there's that idea, or we could accept changing economic conditions and limitations on land, and look to more sustainable economic models...


Done in one.
 
2012-12-09 09:41:17 AM  

RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.


I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.
 
2012-12-09 09:45:01 AM  

Theaetetus: RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.

I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.


Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.
 
2012-12-09 10:00:41 AM  
BREEDERS! CROTCHFRUIT!
 
2012-12-09 10:06:08 AM  

RexTalionis: Theaetetus: RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.

I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.


www.xcergy.com
;)
 
2012-12-09 10:11:53 AM  
massi.ch
 
2012-12-09 10:14:47 AM  
With automation and outsourcing, we're not going to have enough jobs for the population we're naturally going to have, never mind for the population we'd have with 2.3+ fertility rate plus immigration.

You can't run a social system based on the prospect of limitless growth. Blame the ones without foresight who engineered it, not the ones not breeding until their genitalia explode.
 
2012-12-09 10:23:53 AM  
I'm convinced I'll have one child. At least, I keep telling myself that I want to have one child. But, I have NOOOOOO idea when this will happen. I'm 32 and married BUT still searching for that ellusive entry level job that will kickstart my career. Then I will need maternity leave. Then daycare. And hope my parents move closer to the West coast.
 
2012-12-09 10:24:17 AM  
I would be happy to knock up every woman possible.

Paying child support? Not so much.
 
2012-12-09 10:56:21 AM  

hubiestubert: Well, there's that idea, or we could accept changing economic conditions and limitations on land, and look to more sustainable economic models...


Right, and God could just create an alternate earth orbiting this one that is full of unicorns and puppies where we all could go and be so so happy. A much more reasonable idea is simply to breed our way out of this problem because after all the economy is not a zero sum game and there are infinite resources that only become more plentiful as we grow in numbers.
 
2012-12-09 11:19:04 AM  
Or just relax immigration as needed. Not that hard of a problem to solve.
 
2012-12-09 11:21:07 AM  

Corvus: Or just relax immigration as needed. Not that hard of a problem to solve.


That's the actual solution. There are plenty of young people on the damn planet. Just get them to move here.
 
2012-12-09 11:26:51 AM  

GAT_00: Corvus: Or just relax immigration as needed. Not that hard of a problem to solve.

That's the actual solution. There are plenty of young people on the damn planet. Just get them to move here.


As a young person struggling to find a job here already, I object.
 
2012-12-09 11:52:44 AM  
Hey.

Have you seen the Politics tab?

There are a lot of people who should not be reproducing. We are proof.
 
2012-12-09 11:53:11 AM  

GAT_00: Corvus: Or just relax immigration as needed. Not that hard of a problem to solve.

That's the actual solution. There are plenty of young people on the damn planet. Just get them to move here.


NOOOOOO! They might vote for *gasp* DEMOCRATS!!!!!111!
 
2012-12-09 11:53:44 AM  
Yeah, but why do people in third world countries insist on having more babies?

/makes no sense
 
2012-12-09 11:59:03 AM  
You need to raise 3 kids. The first one to learn how to do it, the second to get it right and the third to get it the way you wanted in the first place.
 
2012-12-09 11:59:32 AM  

Theaetetus: RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.

I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.


you are 100% correct sir.

......also may I recommend a good read for those of you farkers interested in population growth in the US.

blog.peteyparker.com
 
2012-12-09 12:00:04 PM  
The unstated issue is that brown people are breeding. AND they worship the wrong deities.
 
2012-12-09 12:00:43 PM  
To paraphrase Voltaire, the comfort of the rich requires a vast population of poor.

There is absolutely no danger we'll run out of workers to wipe the butts of nursing-home patients, though we might well run out of workers poor and desperate enough to do this in exchange for poverty wages.
 
2012-12-09 12:01:53 PM  
I have 4 kids, so I'm gett a kick- OW!

Damn kids. GROUNDED!
 
2012-12-09 12:02:37 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: GAT_00: Corvus: Or just relax immigration as needed. Not that hard of a problem to solve.

That's the actual solution. There are plenty of young people on the damn planet. Just get them to move here.

As a young person struggling to find a job here already, I object.


Borrow money from your parents and buy Walmart stock. Your objection will vanish.
 
2012-12-09 12:04:10 PM  
ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2012-12-09 12:05:20 PM  

ThatGuyFromTheInternet: GAT_00: Corvus: Or just relax immigration as needed. Not that hard of a problem to solve.

That's the actual solution. There are plenty of young people on the damn planet. Just get them to move here.

As a young person struggling to find a job here already, I object.


Yeah, but that's a problem with greedy businesses, not demographics.
 
2012-12-09 12:06:29 PM  
Can we start with other people actually taking care of the children they already have, or is that too much?
 
2012-12-09 12:06:31 PM  

hubiestubert: Well, there's that idea, or we could accept changing economic conditions and limitations on land, and look to more sustainable economic models...


That's the only solution long-term, but the hardest to "sell" right now. (After all, we've got decades worth of heavy sour crude in the bottom of the ocean and 3D printing will be just like Star Trek.) But you know what? It's going to happen anyways, bit by bit, year by year. We've already changed our social model a few times since the Victorian era, for example. I see young people today, sneeringly referred to as hipsters by older people, living simpler lives, wearing recycled clothes, using old technology, riding bikes. They've already eschewed the "normative three pillars" of white man society, the car, the suburbs and the kids. Remains to see what will happen as they age.

I'm old, I have no car, no house in the suburbs. I do buy new clothes, but mostly Foot Locker T-shirts because you never find t-shirts in used clothes stores.

Snort: The unstated issue is that brown people are breeding. AND they worship the wrong deities.


And their sand is over our oil too.
 
2012-12-09 12:06:53 PM  

RexTalionis: Theaetetus: RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.

I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.


I think you just contradicted yourself. Actually the US IS special in that regard. We are actually the ONLY developed country that DO NOT suffer from population declination in the coming years. The US is still maintaining a very healthy growth rate and coupled that with continued immigration will ensure a robust population growth in the coming decades.
 
2012-12-09 12:06:53 PM  

Cyrusv10: Yeah, but why do people in third world countries insist on having more babies?

/makes no sense


Actually most 3rd world countries also have declining birth rates too, they just haven't been declining for the same length of time.

Basically when infant mortality rate drops below a certain threshhold, fertility rates plummet. In 1960 there was easily over a dozen countries with a fertility rate over 7, as of 2010 there is only one.

Take a look at this chart I whipped up with google public date for a nice visualization, just press play.
 
2012-12-09 12:08:00 PM  

Cyrusv10: Yeah, but why do people in third world countries insist on having more babies?

/makes no sense


Well, sex is fun and there's not a whole lot of entertainment options for the poor in most 3rd world countries. Combine higher infant mortality rates with societal and religious barriers to birth control and then toss in the fact that kids in a lot of these countries are viewed as a viable labor force and you get population explosion. The infant mortality thing seems counter intuitive at first, but the way you get around that is by trying to have more kids.
 
2012-12-09 12:08:00 PM  
No. Have FEWER babies, and start today!

Economy is a meaningless construct that simply serves as a tool to help us distribute goods and encourage the necessary labor for survival. It's completely at our disposal to change.

We can feed everyone we have, shelter them, and keep them warm/cool. We can fund scientific research and exploration. We can produce art. We can repair roads, buildings, etc. We don't need more babies to do any of these things.

Considering climate change, overfishing, the pacific garbage patch, dwindling resources of all kinds, fewer people will lengthen the usability of all resources while doing a small bit to counter the damage we've done and increase the chances of a rebound.

If nothing else, should things change drastically and force major changes to lifestyle (or causing shortages), a smaller population will be able to adjust more easily with less deaths and upheaval.
 
2012-12-09 12:08:09 PM  
4.bp.blogspot.com

/Let's get this out of the way.
 
2012-12-09 12:08:15 PM  

Cyrusv10: Yeah, but why do people in third world countries insist on having more babies?

/makes no sense


Sort of makes sense from the third world prospective.
-Higher infant and child mortality
-No social net for older people

So why do they have, say 5 kids in third world countries? Of the 5, 2 or 3 might survive to adulthood. If you get old and can't take care of yourself, your hope is that your kids will.

Not the way I would want to live, but that's they way it works in other countries.
 
2012-12-09 12:08:29 PM  
Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.
 
2012-12-09 12:09:07 PM  

SuperNinjaToad: RexTalionis: Theaetetus: RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.

I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.

I think you just contradicted yourself. Actually the US IS special in that regard. We are actually the ONLY developed country that DO NOT suffer from population declination in the coming years. The US is still maintaining a very healthy growth rate and coupled that with continued immigration will ensure a robust population growth in the coming decades.


No, I didn't. I said the population is growing in the US, but the birth rate is declining in the US. These two bits of data is not contradictory, and in fact, that's the whole point of my previous posts.
 
2012-12-09 12:10:10 PM  
So we're supposed to pop out kids when we can't even get healthcare for these kids, much less afford housing for them?

What a naked display of treating the 99% like medieval peasantry.
 
2012-12-09 12:10:52 PM  
I look forward to the day that we dont have enough people on this planet.

I don't think its here yet though.
 
2012-12-09 12:11:10 PM  

hubiestubert: Well, there's that idea, or we could accept changing economic conditions and limitations on land, and look to more sustainable economic models...


Done in one...


/ Knew I had you favorited for a reason...
 
2012-12-09 12:11:22 PM  
I hope that all of the people who don't think this is a problem are ok with Medicare and Social Security not existing when it comes time for them to collect. We don't need massive population growth, but you need young workers to support those programs. Otherwise they go away. And I'd better not see you screaming that they shouldn't ever be cut, either.

//Completely support those programs, as long as reasonable mods are made to keep them sustainable. But none of that is possible if we have population decline.

PS - if the US, Europe, and Japan are all competing for immigrants... does immigration solve our problem? Probably aren't enough to go around.
 
2012-12-09 12:15:05 PM  

GAT_00: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: GAT_00: Corvus: Or just relax immigration as needed. Not that hard of a problem to solve.

That's the actual solution. There are plenty of young people on the damn planet. Just get them to move here.

As a young person struggling to find a job here already, I object.

Yeah, but that's a problem with greedy businesses, not demographics.


I'm pretty sure the number of cheap, entry-level candidates applying for a finite number of openings would be relevant.
 
2012-12-09 12:15:20 PM  

RexTalionis: Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.


The Northern Peninsula Albino is a unique, rare creature in the world. Their skin displays a rainbow of colors from the deficiency in pigment. The rest of the monotone browns should strive to achieve the multicolored brilliance of the Caucasian. That's why they need to outbreed the brownies.
 
2012-12-09 12:16:09 PM  
I will be content today by continuing to contribute to this problem. I will be sitting in my computer room playing Everquest and watching the Vikings end their season.
 
2012-12-09 12:16:23 PM  

The My Little Pony Killer: Can we start with other people actually taking care of the children they already have, or is that too much?


We have one birth child and one adopted child. I've starting with taking care other people's children.
 
2012-12-09 12:19:29 PM  

Theaetetus: RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.

I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.


I find that you don't know what birth rates are doing everywhere in the world. Declining birth rates follow urbanization, apparently. They're falling in Mexico, South America, the Middle East, East Asia... this isn't a caucasian problem. Essentially, they're declining all over the world at the same time. Save your preconceived notions for other discussions.
 
2012-12-09 12:19:32 PM  

chewd: I look forward to the day that we dont have enough people on this planet.

I don't think its here yet though.


Don't let the door hit you on the way out...
 
2012-12-09 12:19:57 PM  
I have 3 kids, all raised with functioning bullshiat meters and nothing short of loathing for right wingers, bible beaters and other ignoramii.
 
2012-12-09 12:20:26 PM  

violetvolume: Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.


I hate to break it to you, but problems aren't solved by wishful thinking...
 
2012-12-09 12:20:48 PM  
When we can feed everyone, I might give a fark.
 
2012-12-09 12:21:17 PM  
Hell, massive regressive societal changes will help. Women, go home and raise the kids again. Men get the jobs, children are raised in a civilized manner, and probably most importantly children are born when women are younger which is far healthier for both mother and child.
 
2012-12-09 12:21:59 PM  
We are running out of cocaine. If we don't find some more cocaine soon then we won't be able to function at work tomorrow. Our entire life is built around scoring and using cocaine. The fact that we are running out of cocaine is a big problem, and you are a moron if you think that running out of cocaine is maybe good for us because we shouldn't be using so much cocaine anyway, just look at what happened to Shady Mike when he OD'd on bath salts after quitting cocaine. If we run out of cocaine we could end up just like him.
 
GBB
2012-12-09 12:22:12 PM  
Ross Douthat, Dou exactly that.
 
2012-12-09 12:23:57 PM  
Why we need to start having a lot more babies right now. Wait, this is Fark. Why OTHER PEOPLE need to start having a lot more babies right now

Fat people don't have such bad looking babies. Not necessarily.

/that was the joke?
//right?
 
2012-12-09 12:26:58 PM  
As yes, immigration. The silver bullet that will cure all economic woes, and also provide desperately-needed trendy eateries for yuppies.

The only problem is that those immigrants bring baggage with them, as Europe has been finding out over the past few decades..
 
2012-12-09 12:27:53 PM  

DrunkenBob: RexTalionis: Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.

The Northern Peninsula Albino is a unique, rare creature in the world. Their skin displays a rainbow of colors from the deficiency in pigment. The rest of the monotone browns should strive to achieve the multicolored brilliance of the Caucasian. That's why they need to outbreed the brownies.


mlkshk.comf-e-a-r-forums.2310788.n4.nabble.com
 
2012-12-09 12:29:42 PM  
Anybody worried there aren't enough people is more than welcome to ride along on my morning commute.

/Fingers crossed for a lethal pandemic to do some weeding out.
 
2012-12-09 12:32:23 PM  

Theaetetus: I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.


Aaannnddd done.

Declining birthrate is not a problem for generations unless you are scared about brown people - who are genetically incapable of being as civilized as you- marrying your kids (your good, white bred kids).
 
2012-12-09 12:33:27 PM  
i554.photobucket.com 

Fellow Republicans, do your duty and reproduce!
 
2012-12-09 12:33:47 PM  

WhippingBoy: violetvolume: Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.

I hate to break it to you, but problems aren't solved by wishful thinking...


Uh.... what?
 
2012-12-09 12:35:33 PM  
This is so farked. Reliance on growth is never sustainable. People that think like this are farked in the head. Overpopulation is the root of every problem we face as a species. fark these people.
 
2012-12-09 12:35:34 PM  
api.ning.com
 
2012-12-09 12:35:36 PM  
FTFA: But this doesn't quite work, because our population will not simply get smaller; it will also get older. If everyone was going to suddenly die at 45, we might be able to get the requisite productivity boost

img253.imageshack.us

Renew on Carrousel!
 
2012-12-09 12:36:04 PM  
it's all a moot point in 13 days any way

/ammirite?
 
2012-12-09 12:38:15 PM  

Surpheon: Theaetetus: I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Aaannnddd done.

Declining birthrate is not a problem for generations unless you are scared about brown people - who are genetically incapable of being as civilized as you- marrying your kids (your good, white bred kids).


Or maybe people want to preserve their cultural identity. I guess only non-white people are allowed to do that, though.
 
2012-12-09 12:39:35 PM  

RobertBruce: Hell, massive regressive societal changes will help. Women, go home and raise the kids again. Men get the jobs, children are raised in a civilized manner, and probably most importantly children are born when women are younger which is far healthier for both mother and child.


Does a society going away due to a low birthrate not count as a regressive societal change?
 
2012-12-09 12:40:36 PM  

violetvolume: WhippingBoy: violetvolume: Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.

I hate to break it to you, but problems aren't solved by wishful thinking...

Uh.... what?


Naively stating that "there is no problem" and that "IT WILL ALL BE OK" doesn't necessarily make it true.
 
2012-12-09 12:43:23 PM  

hubiestubert: Well, there's that idea, or we could accept changing economic conditions and limitations on land, and look to more sustainable economic models...


Done in one.

\might be the first time I've done the "done in one" tidbit
 
2012-12-09 12:43:32 PM  

WhippingBoy: Surpheon: Theaetetus: I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Aaannnddd done.

Declining birthrate is not a problem for generations unless you are scared about brown people - who are genetically incapable of being as civilized as you- marrying your kids (your good, white bred kids).

Or maybe people want to preserve their cultural identity. I guess only non-white people are allowed to do that, though.


"Preserve your cultural identity-quit putting your dick in brown people!"
 
2012-12-09 12:44:08 PM  
This planet needs fewer people, not more, and global warming (or whatever it's called these days) is how it's going to happen.

Unless we wise up and start using condoms.
 
2012-12-09 12:46:14 PM  
Given the choice between outlawing birth control and outlawing usury. I'm going to go with banning usury. Sure the crazy world of growth and high finance we've enjoyed for the past couple of centuries will go down the tube. But in terms of the real physical economy, fewer people per square foot of arable land has to mean more wealth per person. Will the transition be hard, sure, but ultimately it's necessary.
 
2012-12-09 12:49:12 PM  

RobertBruce: Hell, massive regressive societal changes will help. Women, go home and raise the kids again. Men get the jobs, children are raised in a civilized manner, and probably most importantly children are born when women are younger which is far healthier for both mother and child.


The problem with this is that it's near impossable for a family to function on one income. My husband works full time and makes pretty good money, yet we still rent and can't afford to buy a house, and I work part time in the evenings anyway. For now, our one child is all that we can afford/have room for.
 
2012-12-09 12:49:52 PM  

WhippingBoy: Or maybe people want to preserve their cultural identity. I guess only non-white people are allowed to do that, though.


What exactly would that cultural identity be? Be specific, what is this valuable white cultural identity that brown people don't adopt after coming to this country? Worried about Muslim Socialist Kenyans taking over the country?
 
2012-12-09 12:50:59 PM  

FourPetesake: RobertBruce: Hell, massive regressive societal changes will help. Women, go home and raise the kids again. Men get the jobs, children are raised in a civilized manner, and probably most importantly children are born when women are younger which is far healthier for both mother and child.

The problem with this is that it's near impossable for a family to function on one income. My husband works full time and makes pretty good money, yet we still rent and can't afford to buy a house, and I work part time in the evenings anyway. For now, our one child is all that we can afford/have room for.


In some cases, yes. In most cases, it all comes down to priorities.
 
2012-12-09 12:51:03 PM  

FourPetesake: RobertBruce: Hell, massive regressive societal changes will help. Women, go home and raise the kids again. Men get the jobs, children are raised in a civilized manner, and probably most importantly children are born when women are younger which is far healthier for both mother and child.

The problem with this is that it's near impossable for a family to function on one income. My husband works full time and makes pretty good money, yet we still rent and can't afford to buy a house, and I work part time in the evenings anyway. For now, our one child is all that we can afford/have room for.


Yeah, I doubt employers will suddenly double wages if the workforces halves by all the women leaving it, or match with whatever proportions thereabouts.
 
2012-12-09 12:51:36 PM  

Cyrusv10: Yeah, but why do people in third world countries insist on having more babies?

/makes no sense


Uneducated women who have few rights in their homelands or opportunities in life except to get married are the ones having babies, many of the times not by choice. And in many of these countries, these women don't have the right to refuse to have sex with their husbands, and sometimes little or no access to affordable birth control.

As has been found time and time again: Educate women and give them opportunities and birth rates drop.
 
2012-12-09 12:55:19 PM  
Yes but that would require taking care of someone else for a long period of time, which involves actual, *gulp* work. This might result in developing empathy and a sense that things will go on without us.

Heavens.
 
2012-12-09 12:57:14 PM  
Isn't the world population still small enough to fit into the state of Texas? Whatever happened to that eyeopening concept?
 
2012-12-09 01:00:41 PM  

Surpheon: WhippingBoy: Or maybe people want to preserve their cultural identity. I guess only non-white people are allowed to do that, though.

What exactly would that cultural identity be? Be specific, what is this valuable white cultural identity that brown people don't adopt after coming to this country? Worried about Muslim Socialist Kenyans taking over the country?


Anything anyone identifies with that can be traced to their past culture. Holidays, traditions, way of life, etc.
For example, in western society, Christmas is a very big deal (to the religious and non-religous alike). Governments, television, shopping malls, etc. make a big deal of it, all of which affect the cultural landscape and experience. If the demographic changed so that 95% of the country was muslim (for example), I suspect that this particular cultural experience would be significantly diminished.
 
2012-12-09 01:01:50 PM  
Young populations are better than aged populations. As far as overpopulation is concerned, the death rate is more of a problem than the birth rate. That makes the issue stickier.
 
2012-12-09 01:02:08 PM  

Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: I hope that all of the people who don't think this is a problem are ok with Medicare and Social Security not existing when it comes time for them to collect. We don't need massive population growth, but you need young workers to support those programs. Otherwise they go away. And I'd better not see you screaming that they shouldn't ever be cut, either.



This is like arguing if the porridge is too hot or too cold...

The first thing that has to happen in ANY population discussion, is each party has to state what they think the population should be in 5 years, 10 years, 25 years, 50 years, etc. If the growth (or decline) graph that you're pursuing just doesn't make sense, throwing around arguments is useless.
 
2012-12-09 01:02:44 PM  
Look, while I disagree with Douthat's conclusion ("Less babies means less money! Get rich by having babies!"), I would agree that there are a lot of societal changes that are occuring that are having a downward pressure on the birth rate.

These include:

-young adults having anxiety about divorce ("divorce is bad! divorce hurts kids! divorce rates are high! don't get divorced")

-less time for child-rearing in a two-income economy ("dad works, mom works, childcare services are expensive")

-pressure to raise whiz-kids while allowing little time for childrearing ("you're supposed to have kids when you're young, fertile, and broke? fark that")

-more choice and control regarding conception ("love then marriage then baby in baby carriage instead of back of chevy-oops")

-an economy contracting to the point that young people have to choose whether to maintain their customary standard of living or have children ("well I can keep on buying an iPhone every two years, like when I was living with my parents, or I can have a kid and go shopping at goodwill for the next 10 years")

-an economic and tax system that doesn't deal with these realities ("healthcare linked to employment, low credits for child rearing, laughably low effective top tax bracket rates for capital income, higher taxes on labor income, low top-tax bracket effective rates for labor income, a corporate-friendly maternity/paternity leave policy, a system of laws and policies prioritizing production/GDP over quality of life")

Again while Douthat is kind of making several HUGE leaps of cognitive faith ("including the understated 'white people need to have more kids to offset the brown people'"), he does bring up something that I think needs to be addressed.

/I want to have kids some day, but I don't feel like I'm in a stable enough position to even think about it
//I'm a 27 year old white male
 
2012-12-09 01:03:37 PM  

Cyrusv10: Yeah, but why do people in third world countries insist on having more babies?

/makes no sense


More kids to tend the crops and work the land.

/no, really.
 
2012-12-09 01:03:52 PM  

BokChoy: The only problem is that those immigrants bring baggage with them, as Europe has been finding out over the past few decades..


Um, the US is composed (nearly) entirely of immigrants. Europe's problem with immigrants is that they made it entirely clear from the outset that the Turks, North Africans, Pakistanis and others would never, ever be considered residents of those European nations. That led to ghettos, and then to lots of the problems that they're having now.

The US is much, much better than that at assimilating groups of people and making them feel like they're us. Not perfect, but much better.
 
2012-12-09 01:04:34 PM  
i'd love to, but nowadays lots of folks have to choose between getting an education and having a family. i chose education. we'll see how that pans out.
 
2012-12-09 01:05:16 PM  

WhippingBoy: violetvolume: WhippingBoy: violetvolume: Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.

I hate to break it to you, but problems aren't solved by wishful thinking...

Uh.... what?

Naively stating that "there is no problem" and that "IT WILL ALL BE OK" doesn't necessarily make it true.


Do YOU think there's a problem? Do you think all this alarmist stuff about the economy and innovation and everything will actually happen? Sure it COULD, and then there'd be a problem. But a dip in the birth rate during a recession is neither unheard of nor an issue. In fact, it makes sense. People just want to freak out about stuff, and "freaking out about women and babies" is always a topic that's sure to get people's dander up.
 
2012-12-09 01:06:03 PM  

Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: if the US, Europe, and Japan are all competing for immigrants... does immigration solve our problem? Probably aren't enough to go around.


Japan's immigration problem is that there is so very little of it, by design. That's why they're busy developing robots to take care of old people. And 'Probably aren't enough to go around'? The first world, where people want to live, currently constitutes roughly a fifth of the worlds population. Enough people isn't a problem, quite the opposite.
 
2012-12-09 01:09:45 PM  

RexTalionis: Right. And if you look at every single developed country in the world, the birth rate is declining EVERYWHERE, so the US is not exactly all that special in this regard.


That's like a fortune 500 company complaining their profits declined last year. They are still Profits. And the world population is still increasing - at a phenomenal rate, compared to any other time in history.

Fixing the world's problems my increasing population is akin to deficit spending. You're only delaying the problem for the next generation to solve.
 
2012-12-09 01:12:38 PM  

violetvolume: WhippingBoy: violetvolume: WhippingBoy: violetvolume: Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.

I hate to break it to you, but problems aren't solved by wishful thinking...

Uh.... what?

Naively stating that "there is no problem" and that "IT WILL ALL BE OK" doesn't necessarily make it true.

Do YOU think there's a problem? Do you think all this alarmist stuff about the economy and innovation and everything will actually happen? Sure it COULD, and then there'd be a problem. But a dip in the birth rate during a recession is neither unheard of nor an issue. In fact, it makes sense. People just want to freak out about stuff, and "freaking out about women and babies" is always a topic that's sure to get people's dander up.


I don't think all this "alarmist stuff about the economy and innovation and everything" will actually happen, I think it IS happening right now. You must be one of the privileged ones who wasn't unduly affected by the "recession".

Whether or not having more babies will fix, things, I don't know...
 
2012-12-09 01:13:36 PM  

WhippingBoy: Surpheon: Theaetetus: I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Aaannnddd done.

Declining birthrate is not a problem for generations unless you are scared about brown people - who are genetically incapable of being as civilized as you- marrying your kids (your good, white bred kids).

Or maybe people want to preserve their cultural identity. I guess only non-white people are allowed to do that, though.


As an Irish-American in Massachusetts, I find your complaint amusing. You wanna preserve your culture? Celebrate it.
 
2012-12-09 01:16:29 PM  
"Why we need to start having a lot more WHITE babies right now."

Because true Americans are white and their control of the US and their rightful place will be taken away unless their women start doing their duty.

This is the problem Israel faces. - if they don't keep down their Muslim/Christian population then in the future Jews will no longer control their country. This is the real issue that is fueling much of the problems in the mid-east. Ultimately when Jews assimilate it destroys Judaism.
 
2012-12-09 01:27:57 PM  

ptelg: Yes but that would require taking care of someone else for a long period of time, which involves actual, *gulp* work. This might result in developing empathy and a sense that things will go on without us.

Heavens.


If you think that you need to bring another person into the world in order to be able to develop things like "empathy" and "a sense of things going on without you" maybe the problem is with you.
 
2012-12-09 01:30:25 PM  

HairBolus: This is the problem Israel faces. - if they don't keep down their Muslim/Christian population then in the future Jews will no longer control their country. This is the real issue that is fueling much of the problems in the mid-east. Ultimately when Jews assimilate it destroys Judaism.


Ric Romero already reported on this.

What's really shocking is that Israel has flat out admitted that they're trying to prevent Palestianians voting for that same reason with statements like "demographics timebomb" and yet other countries like the US support that kind of discriminatory behavior.
 
2012-12-09 01:37:51 PM  
Maybe if it wasn't so expensive to have kids, more people my age who are not on the dole would have them.

-Daycare costs are almost as much as college education
-Public schools suck so much you either buy your way into a good district or pay for private
-I live in Canada so I'm lucky to get paid mat leave, US is lucky if you get a month
-House and Rent prices are sky-high so more kids = more space
-I still have student loans to pay off, i'm lucky I took out a pittance to boot.

If we didn't have 20 years of stagnated wages it might be doable, but not now.
 
2012-12-09 01:37:54 PM  
Meh, the bugs are gonna get us in the end. Already seeing the beginnings of the next plague in hospitals around the US.

Mother Nature can take care of herself.
 
2012-12-09 01:38:13 PM  
img2.timeinc.net
 
2012-12-09 01:40:13 PM  

shortymac: Maybe if it wasn't so expensive to have kids, more people my age who are not on the dole would have them.

-Daycare costs are almost as much as college education
-Public schools suck so much you either buy your way into a good district or pay for private
-I live in Canada so I'm lucky to get paid mat leave, US is lucky if you get a month
-House and Rent prices are sky-high so more kids = more space
-I still have student loans to pay off, i'm lucky I took out a pittance to boot.

If we didn't have 20 years of stagnated wages it might be doable, but not now.


We do live in interesting times. I'm curious to see how the lack of entry level jobs that require a college education are going to effect college enrollment and their rediculous tuition rates.
 
2012-12-09 01:45:24 PM  

WhippingBoy: Anything anyone identifies with that can be traced to their past culture. Holidays, traditions, way of life, etc.
For example, in western society, Christmas is a very big deal (to the religious and non-religous alike). Governments, television, shopping malls, etc. make a big deal of it, all of which affect the cultural landscape and experience. If the demographic changed so that 95% of the country was muslim (for example), I suspect that this particular cultural experience would be significantly diminished.


You'd miss The Little Drummer Boy on loop in the mall? Well, I'll give you credit for being shallow rather than racist.
 
2012-12-09 01:47:14 PM  
The author is a farking moron. More people will not grow the economy if THERE ARE NO JOBS TO GIVE THEM. The marketplace is already supersaturated with labor. More people will just mean more mouths to feed, via welfare, and a lower standard of living for everyone.

Robots will be doing almost everything soon enough. We already replace cops with traffic cameras, assembly workers with robots, and (coming soon) RFID chips to simply deduct from your bank account whatever you walk out of a store with, eliminating the need for retail workers. We need fewer people, not more. Population decline would be a good thing, if only it were actually happening.
 
2012-12-09 01:51:41 PM  

unyon: Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: if the US, Europe, and Japan are all competing for immigrants... does immigration solve our problem? Probably aren't enough to go around.

Japan's immigration problem is that there is so very little of it, by design. That's why they're busy developing robots to take care of old people. And 'Probably aren't enough to go around'? The first world, where people want to live, currently constitutes roughly a fifth of the worlds population. Enough people isn't a problem, quite the opposite.


Right, but just the fact that they're talking about allowing more of it shows that they perceive that they're in a huge hole and need to change in multiple ways.
 
2012-12-09 01:52:06 PM  
The future looks bleak. It will consist of only politicians and gov't employees.
 
2012-12-09 01:53:24 PM  
The article is about 50% correct.

Intelligent women are too busy pursuing careers to have children, while stupid women are breeding like flies.

The end result is more stupid worthless parasites who can't feed themselves, and fewer and fewer working people who are able---or willing---to do so.
 
2012-12-09 01:53:57 PM  

Tommy Moo: Population decline would be a good thing, if only it were actually happening.


actually, there's nothing wrong with the population. it's the activities of certain populations that are exponentially more harmful than just people. if the US would put a fraction of it's effort into wise resource use and innovation there wouldn't be a problem at all. but it's merika and ignorance is the flag of the past half century, and it doesn't look like it will be changing any time soon.
 
2012-12-09 02:08:22 PM  

Deep Contact: The future looks bleak. It will consist of only politicians and gov't employees.


Welcome to Northern Virginia. I love you.
 
2012-12-09 02:14:50 PM  
The last thing this planet needs is more babies. Africa has a massive surplus of the things. I suggest importing some of them.
 
2012-12-09 02:15:37 PM  

violetvolume: WhippingBoy: violetvolume: WhippingBoy: violetvolume: Oh, the freakout over this is so stupid. The human race isn't going to die out. We're not going to descend into chaos. This isn't Children of Men. People aren't having kids because kids are expensive and the economy is bad. We'll all live. The economy will not come crashing down because women aren't having enough babies. IT WILL ALL BE OKAY.

I hate to break it to you, but problems aren't solved by wishful thinking...

Uh.... what?

Naively stating that "there is no problem" and that "IT WILL ALL BE OK" doesn't necessarily make it true.

Do YOU think there's a problem? Do you think all this alarmist stuff about the economy and innovation and everything will actually happen? Sure it COULD, and then there'd be a problem. But a dip in the birth rate during a recession is neither unheard of nor an issue. In fact, it makes sense. People just want to freak out about stuff, and "freaking out about women and babies" is always a topic that's sure to get people's dander up.


Yes. I don't think the 'innovation' issue is worth discussing, but the 'the economy is built on debt and an ever-growing economy' is basically completely true. While it's not the end of the world, it will likely be a major problem. Do you see any politicians even willing to discuss it? One of our political parties in the US is dedicated 100% to only increasing gov't revenue through 'growing the economy' and it is this principle that they base their policies and outreach on (i.e. the 'party of opportunity')
 
2012-12-09 02:24:16 PM  

swahnhennessy: The last thing this planet needs is more babies. Africa has a massive surplus of the things. I suggest importing some of them.


Plus, they're pretty cheap.
 
2012-12-09 02:27:58 PM  

Non-evil Monkey: Cyrusv10: Yeah, but why do people in third world countries insist on having more babies?

/makes no sense

Actually most 3rd world countries also have declining birth rates too, they just haven't been declining for the same length of time.

Basically when infant mortality rate drops below a certain threshhold, fertility rates plummet. In 1960 there was easily over a dozen countries with a fertility rate over 7, as of 2010 there is only one.

Take a look at this chart I whipped up with google public date for a nice visualization, just press play.


That is damn cool. Thanks
 
2012-12-09 02:30:15 PM  
I can't even take care of myself.

I thought the machines were supposed to take over or something.

I'm going to hold out and hope for cloning since I'm so bad with ladies anyway.
 
2012-12-09 02:31:36 PM  
I came in here to say I just found out last week I was going to be a father.

PS If it makes people feel better, my entire extended family is engineers, architects or doctors with a minimum of a master's degree, so hopefully it won't be as dumb as people seem to think.
PPS Just finished my master's degree. Was worried about boredom and what to do with my time. Not anymore.
 
2012-12-09 02:36:35 PM  
ok, ill volunteer.. line up ladies.. lets get to baking.
 
2012-12-09 02:37:10 PM  
Tell you what: I make a low six-figure salary, I work fewer than 60 hours a week, and I get four weeks of paid vacation every year. If you can guarantee me the same salary, hours, and benefits for raising kids that I enjoy in my current job, then I might - might - think about reproducing. Until then, fark you.
 
2012-12-09 02:39:12 PM  

Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: PS - if the US, Europe, and Japan are all competing for immigrants... does immigration solve our problem? Probably aren't enough to go around.


Immigration does not solve the problem. Firstly, the skilled immigrants are in short supply, just like skilled labor in the first world is in short supply. Secondly, within a generation or two they assume the birth rate of their new country. Immigration just kicks the can down the road.
 
2012-12-09 02:49:55 PM  

LamOtter: WhippingBoy: Surpheon: Theaetetus: I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.

Aaannnddd done.

Declining birthrate is not a problem for generations unless you are scared about brown people - who are genetically incapable of being as civilized as you- marrying your kids (your good, white bred kids).

Or maybe people want to preserve their cultural identity. I guess only non-white people are allowed to do that, though.

"Preserve your cultural identity-quit putting your dick in brown people!"


If God didn't want me putting my dick in brown girls, He wouldn't have made them hot.
 
2012-12-09 02:50:00 PM  
So long white American culture

www.smokersassociation.org
 
2012-12-09 02:58:53 PM  
If we drop the whole nationalism thing and look at humanity at large, we're still growing. So that's nice.
 
2012-12-09 03:00:23 PM  

Lady Beryl Ersatz-Wendigo: Tell you what: I make a low six-figure salary, I work fewer than 60 hours a week, and I get four weeks of paid vacation every year. If you can guarantee me the same salary, hours, and benefits for raising kids that I enjoy in my current job, then I might - might - think about reproducing. Until then, fark you.


It's probably best that you don't reproduce. No matter how well it pays.
 
2012-12-09 03:01:19 PM  

Tommy Moo: The author is a farking moron. More people will not grow the economy if THERE ARE NO JOBS TO GIVE THEM. The marketplace is already supersaturated with labor. More people will just mean more mouths to feed, via welfare, and a lower standard of living for everyone.

Robots will be doing almost everything soon enough. We already replace cops with traffic cameras, assembly workers with robots, and (coming soon) RFID chips to simply deduct from your bank account whatever you walk out of a store with, eliminating the need for retail workers. We need fewer people, not more. Population decline would be a good thing, if only it were actually happening.


I think the issue of the composition of the next generation is a bigger issue than the number. Once it gets to the point that its cheaper to have a machine mow a lawn than a Mexican, our economy, especially for the lower classes, is going to be in a world of hurt. The trend of more highly educated women is fueling the problem in another way. It used to be that most doctors were male, and they would tend to marry their highschool sweetheart, spreading the education and smarts around. Nowadays, that male doctor is marrying a female doctor and their birth rate is lower than average. The money and education is being super-concentrated in ever an ever smaller group of people. Skilled immigration is an example of that. The smartest and most driven people are being plucked out of the third world and added to already successful countries. Add to that the graying of the population. We're going to end up with an over-supply of unskilled labor, massive demands on the welfare state and a small group of elites wielding a disproportionate amount of power. We are not going to be able to borrow and consume our way out of this.
 
2012-12-09 03:07:54 PM  
I hope that all of the people who don't think this is a problem are ok with Medicare and Social Security not existing when it comes time for them to collect. We don't need massive population growth, but you need young workers to support those programs. Otherwise they go away. And I'd better not see you screaming that they shouldn't ever be cut, either.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
It is so funny that you think these social programs will be there for you! I've been paying into them for 30 years and know for sure that the Boomers will have it all spent by the time I get there. Have kids so they can pay into a broken system with no hope of return - that is not the view of a responsible parent.


Naively stating that "there is no problem" and that "IT WILL ALL BE OK" doesn't necessarily make it true.

Why not? It works for people who ignore all the problems due to over population.


Yeah, I doubt employers will suddenly double wages if the workforces halves by all the women leaving it, or match with whatever proportions thereabouts.

No, they will just cry "skills gap!" and bring over cheap labor from overseas.


Isn't the world population still small enough to fit into the state of Texas? Whatever happened to that eyeopening concept?

People realized it was moronic not eye opening. People need more space than what they take up standing still. See how long you can stand still, not eating or drinking - when you get to 70 years we'll talk.


For example, in western society, Christmas is a very big deal

So you think brown people do not celebrate Christmas? Really?


Whether or not having more babies will fix, things, I don't know...

I do - It won't. It may make a few things better, but will make the majority worse.


IntelligentEducated women are too busy pursuing careers to have children, while stupid women are breeding like flies.

FTFY
I have a PhD and no children. My sister graduated from High school and has 4. She actually has a higher IQ than I do, but values children more and is not temperamentally suited to school. I am not temperamentally suited to raising kids. I'll leave the child rearing to the people who want to do it. The kids turn out better that way.
 
2012-12-09 03:11:29 PM  
We're going to end up with an over-supply of unskilled labor, massive demands on the welfare state and a small group of elites wielding a disproportionate amount of power. We are not going to be able to borrow and consume our way out of this.

We would not have this problem if we made education cheap and easy to get or if businesses were, once again, willing to train people. The problem here is that business has come to expect people to come pre-trained for what ever system they are using (even if it is proprietary). Uneducated does not mean stupid.
 
2012-12-09 03:11:32 PM  

LasersHurt: If we drop the whole nationalism thing and look at humanity at large, we're still growing. So that's nice.


Ok, so how do we tax that? If we follow your logic, rich old countries should just tax poor young ones, right? That'll go over well at the UN....
 
2012-12-09 03:26:10 PM  

Deep Contact: The future looks bleak. It will consist of only politicians and gov't employees.


If someone would give me one of those government jobs--or any decent job at all, I'm not picky--the future would look a lot less bleak. I guess it just depends on which side you're looking at it from.
 
2012-12-09 03:31:39 PM  
Recently met a couple, the female half of which has three children from three different fathers starting when she was 14 years old. Her current babydaddytobe is not the father of the child that is living with her.

They can't support the one they have, are on welfare and food stamps, and frequently choose to buy lottery tickets and cigarettes and make their seven year old eat Top Ramen for the last two weeks of the month.

They're trying for another one.

Marvelous.

Sometimes I think forced sterilization is a good idea. But then I remember about Nazis.

So there's that.
 
2012-12-09 03:34:26 PM  
www.kcet.org
Who in Hades do you think you are, Vestal Virgins?
You murderers of your own posterity!
 
2012-12-09 03:35:04 PM  

redeyedfrenzy: Recently met a couple, the female half of which has three children from three different fathers starting when she was 14 years old. Her current babydaddytobe is not the father of the child that is living with her.

They can't support the one they have, are on welfare and food stamps, and frequently choose to buy lottery tickets and cigarettes and make their seven year old eat Top Ramen for the last two weeks of the month.

They're trying for another one.

Marvelous.

Sometimes I think forced sterilization is a good idea. But then I remember about Nazis.

So there's that.


Hey, they invented the Volkswagen... don't forget that...
 
2012-12-09 03:39:07 PM  
One other factor seems to be ignored here: something like one out of every two pregnancies is unintentional. And that's just from the woman's perspective. If and when we reach the point where it's one out of every 20 (accidents will still happen), the birth rate will plummet even further.
 
2012-12-09 03:44:13 PM  
The Germans have had good results getting the birth rate per woman up by providing women with support in the form of daycare and other measures to make it easier for working professional women to combine motherhood and careers. Apparently some women make rational decisions about having children based on their ability to afford them. Professional women in particular need guarantees that they can take time off without losing their jobs and their place on the career path with each child.

A co-worker of mine who is politically fairly conservative has had four children, about three of them on paid maternity leave, and I haven't heard her complaining about Canadian socialism. Mind you, baby bonuses in Canada date back to the reign of Louis XIV who encouraged the colonists to breed with gay abandon. Which they did. The birth rate per woman in France was six children, while it was 6.5 in New France. And life expectancy was much higher in New France than in old, even with the Iroquois, the Dutch and the British breathing down our necks.
 
2012-12-09 03:51:50 PM  
My mistake: that should read "working AND professional women". "Socialism" is not just for the rich, although given the fact that Germany has hundreds of different health care insurance schemes to choose from, I won't guarantee that the rich don't get a specially rich deal, the way American "entitlements" such as unemployment insurance are geared to the income of the recipient and thus richer for the richer than the poor.
 
2012-12-09 04:07:01 PM  

hubiestubert: Well, there's that idea, or we could accept changing economic conditions and limitations on land, and look to more sustainable economic models...


Correction: OTHER PEOPLE could accept changing economic conditions and limitations on land, and look to more sustainable economic models. While we, on the other hand, maintain our unlimited supply of food and fresh water, round-the-clock electrical power, and high-speed internet.

/who do you think builds and repairs the machines that are replacing all the workers?
//not the liberal arts graduates who refuse to breed for the "good of the planet," that's for sure
///enjoy your beautiful cities, Eloi, but don't screw with the Morlocks' food supply or they might have to find a... substitute
 
2012-12-09 04:10:48 PM  

raerae1980: I'm convinced I'll have one child. At least, I keep telling myself that I want to have one child. But, I have NOOOOOO idea when this will happen. I'm 32 and married BUT still searching for that ellusive entry level job that will kickstart my career. Then I will need maternity leave. Then daycare. And hope my parents move closer to the West coast.


You'd better freeze some of your eggs now. As you get older, your eggs lose more and more mitrochondria and become less viable. Any pregnancy that happens after age 35 is considered a geriatric pregnancy.

http://www.hollywoodivf.com/FertilityConception/Infertility/Ageandinf e rtility/tabid/450/Default.aspx

Careers are important, but so is having a healthy kid. if you wait until you can afford one, you might never have one. (Look into home based jobs, telecommuting, or starting your own business if you want a job with flexibility enough to let you take care of your kids.)
 
2012-12-09 04:28:29 PM  

Guntram Shatterhand: So we're supposed to pop out kids when we can't even get healthcare for these kids, much less afford housing for them?

What a naked display of treating the 99% like medieval peasantry.


The 1% can better enjoy their wealth from an island in a sea of human misery.
 
2012-12-09 04:29:31 PM  
HAH HAH! I'm pregnant!
 
2012-12-09 04:30:16 PM  

syzygy whizz: hubiestubert: Well, there's that idea, or we could accept changing economic conditions and limitations on land, and look to more sustainable economic models...

Done in one...


/ Knew I had you favorited for a reason...


lh3.googleusercontent.com
 
2012-12-09 04:39:06 PM  

swahnhennessy: The last thing this planet needs is more babies. Africa has a massive surplus of the things. I suggest importing some of them.


The life expectancy there is very low. And it only looks like a surplus because their parents are dead.
 
2012-12-09 04:55:12 PM  

Theaetetus: RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.

I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.


I'm having 2 half-white babies, so together they make one white baby. However I think this is not what the nativists are hoping for...
 
2012-12-09 05:07:32 PM  
So there it is in black and white, without any attempt to even deny it:

Marriage is just a scam to keep the economy going.
 
2012-12-09 05:30:27 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: You need to raise 3 kids. The first one to learn how to do it, the second to get it right and the third to get it the way you wanted in the first place.


I am twice divorced, I think your theory applies to marriages too.
 
2012-12-09 05:35:48 PM  

jst3p: Mr. Eugenides: You need to raise 3 kids. The first one to learn how to do it, the second to get it right and the third to get it the way you wanted in the first place.

I am twice divorced, I think your theory applies to marriages too.


That applies to just about anything.
 
2012-12-09 05:52:04 PM  
I can not believe how many people can actually sanely think that expansion is a forever thing. To think that an economy can be solely founded upon growth is idiocy...
 
2012-12-09 05:57:47 PM  
Happily childfree, vasectomy in 1995... and these are the only diapers I'd be willing to change at this point:

i555.photobucket.com

/i'll clean her up and bring her to my bunk myself, thanks
 
2012-12-09 05:58:15 PM  
Ya, because 311,000,000 + people living in this country isn't enough!!! Let's have more...Yeaaaaaa...
 
2012-12-09 06:29:49 PM  

yourmomlovestetris:
Careers are important, but so is having a healthy kid. if you wait until you can afford one, you might never have one. (Look into home based jobs, telecommuting, or starting your own business if you want a job with flexibility enough to let you take care of your kids.)


Or not buying tons of material crap, When the ex-Mr. Katt and I had kitten, we survived on $1200/month-military pay(extra $500 for rent-so $1700 total), Cloth diapers(cost a whopping $70 to diaper my kid for two years, and those diapers went on to three more kids of my friends), breastmilk, and thrift store baby clothes, we normally had enough money to go on a "date night" every week. Babies aren't expensive, it's the crap people think they NEED for a baby. The book "Attachment parenting" has a list of things that are not necessary to raise a baby-everything on the list is what most people consider "must haves" due to marketing.
 
2012-12-09 06:39:18 PM  
Yes, because this is truly sustainable for the planet Earth in the long term:

www.subdude-site.com

/Really? I'm the first one to post this?
 
2012-12-09 06:39:33 PM  
FTFA: Our whole economy and social system are designed for a growing economy, and a growing population.

Yeah, but. Our economy and social system weren't so much designed as as they are simple opportunistic growth, like a patch of weeds. If a declining population becomes the norm, economy and society will opportunistically evolve to meet the needs. (After a painful adjustment period, maybe.)
 
2012-12-09 07:03:42 PM  
Can we produce enough food and shelter for our population if we see declining population?

If yes then we don't need to increase our populations.

We aren't an agrarian society anymore.
 
2012-12-09 07:14:51 PM  

Tell Me How My Blog Tastes: BokChoy: The only problem is that those immigrants bring baggage with them, as Europe has been finding out over the past few decades..

Um, the US is composed (nearly) entirely of immigrants. Europe's problem with immigrants is that they made it entirely clear from the outset that the Turks, North Africans, Pakistanis and others would never, ever be considered residents of those European nations. That led to ghettos, and then to lots of the problems that they're having now.

The US is much, much better than that at assimilating groups of people and making them feel like they're us. Not perfect, but much better.


Walk through dearborn, mi: everyone under thirty is about as american as apple pie despite being middle eastern.

You are absolutely correct.
 
2012-12-09 07:50:39 PM  
I have one kid in elementary school now. Having additional kids to make playmates for their predecessors seemed too stupid a reason to have more. I never got a serious urge to have more kids. I had always imagined I'd have 2-4, but we just didn't. I'm in my early thirties now, so I don't really want to do pregnancy again. I'm already at a higher chance of twins, even before accounting the increased chance with age.

Maybe the idea of having more kids for some people might be more appealing if people could count on steady jobs like they could in the two or three decades after WW2. Any more though, the employers seem to want to hoard cash, pay their CEO's ridiculous amounts for their incompetence and try to find ways around making sure you've got healthcare. Why would any sane person bring in numerous children into a place where they might have to go without food because some incompetent,idiot CEO that's getting paid at least $5 million in salary before stock options per year is ok with laying people off, expecting more productivity out of already overworked and under compensated employees just so that they profit margin looks a little higher and the stocks will go up.

Corporations are entirely too short term stock-gains focused. They aught to be planning long term growth instead of faddish stock price hunting. Capital gains could be taxed at a progressive scale based on length of investment to encourage long term investment. Short term stocks sales being taxed at the highest rate. Long term capital gains still being taxed nearer to regular income than currently, 15% tax rate is ridiculously low. It should be at least 20% to 25%. 

Republicans need to stop fellating corporate interests.
 
2012-12-09 08:05:58 PM  
Ought, not aught.
 
2012-12-09 08:11:34 PM  

BlaqueKatt: yourmomlovestetris:
Careers are important, but so is having a healthy kid. if you wait until you can afford one, you might never have one. (Look into home based jobs, telecommuting, or starting your own business if you want a job with flexibility enough to let you take care of your kids.)

Or not buying tons of material crap, When the ex-Mr. Katt and I had kitten, we survived on $1200/month-military pay(extra $500 for rent-so $1700 total), Cloth diapers(cost a whopping $70 to diaper my kid for two years, and those diapers went on to three more kids of my friends), breastmilk, and thrift store baby clothes, we normally had enough money to go on a "date night" every week. Babies aren't expensive, it's the crap people think they NEED for a baby. The book "Attachment parenting" has a list of things that are not necessary to raise a baby-everything on the list is what most people consider "must haves" due to marketing.


I agree...they really cost very little if you breastfeed and don't have to deal with formula. I didn't do the cloth diaper thing, no washer and dryer in my apartment, but I manage to only spend about $25-$30/month on diapers, i'm a good sale shopper. I'm interested to see this list of unnecessary things, though im not at all interested in attachment parenting, my kid and i are plenty close, and I don't need to be kicked by an 18 month old throughout the night, screw the bed-sharing crap.
 
2012-12-09 08:13:59 PM  

Goodfella: Yes, because this is truly sustainable for the planet Earth in the long term:

[www.subdude-site.com image 703x578]

/Really? I'm the first one to post this?


Yes, and most of that rapid jump in growth was from a multitude of educated people in first world countries having 20 children. Once the educated class goes extinct, everything will stabilise.
 
2012-12-09 08:34:00 PM  

ohokyeah: I never got a serious urge to have more kids.


And that's the start and the end of it. Once you have one kid, you pretty much have the kid experience. Deciding to have the first kid was an awfully big jump. But once I had one, I knew that I wanted more and not because I wanted to give her a brother or anything stupid like that.
 
2012-12-09 10:34:46 PM  

docilej: Ya, because 311,000,000 + people living in this country isn't enough!!! Let's have more...Yeaaaaaa...


The CONUS landmass at 7.5 million square KM can support our current population with ease. We're at about 40 people/sq KM. The US isn't where the overpopulation problem is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_density


Goodfella: Yes, because this is truly sustainable for the planet Earth in the long term:

[www.subdude-site.com image 703x578]

/Really? I'm the first one to post this?


That graph says were already over 8 billion people...
 
2012-12-09 10:41:17 PM  
I think the issue of the composition of the next generation is a bigger issue than the number. Once it gets to the point that its cheaper to have a machine mow a lawn than a Mexican, our economy, especially for the lower classes, is going to be in a world of hurt. The trend of more highly educated women is fueling the problem in another way. It used to be that most doctors were male, and they would tend to marry their highschool sweetheart, spreading the education and smarts around. Nowadays, that male doctor is marrying a female doctor and their birth rate is lower than average. The money and education is being super-concentrated in ever an ever smaller group of people. Skilled immigration is an example of that. The smartest and most driven people are being plucked out of the third world and added to already successful countries. Add to that the graying of the population. We're going to end up with an over-supply of unskilled labor, massive demands on the welfare state and a small group of elites wielding a disproportionate amount of power. We are not going to be able to borrow and consume our way out of this.

This. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
 
2012-12-09 10:43:58 PM  
 
2012-12-09 11:26:59 PM  

BlaqueKatt: yourmomlovestetris:
Careers are important, but so is having a healthy kid. if you wait until you can afford one, you might never have one. (Look into home based jobs, telecommuting, or starting your own business if you want a job with flexibility enough to let you take care of your kids.)

Or not buying tons of material crap, When the ex-Mr. Katt and I had kitten, we survived on $1200/month-military pay(extra $500 for rent-so $1700 total), Cloth diapers(cost a whopping $70 to diaper my kid for two years, and those diapers went on to three more kids of my friends), breastmilk, and thrift store baby clothes, we normally had enough money to go on a "date night" every week. Babies aren't expensive, it's the crap people think they NEED for a baby. The book "Attachment parenting" has a list of things that are not necessary to raise a baby-everything on the list is what most people consider "must haves" due to marketing.



How much did you spend on daycare? Or if you didn't do daycare, how much of your own earnings did you forfeit by staying home?
 
2012-12-09 11:37:00 PM  
700,000,000,000 yep we needs more.
 
2012-12-10 08:15:33 AM  

Theaetetus: RexTalionis: Part of the reason that our economy (and population) is still expanding is because in the US, immigration is adding more residents to counteract the declining birthrate.

I find that most of the people fearmongering about the declining birth rate are primarily concerned about the declining white birth rate.


Yeah, "our" demographic decline. Then she pivots toward the usual canards against SS.

Lure'em in with racism, scare them into voting themselves into poverty with lies. Bog standard GOP fare.

Clearly the election didn't teach them anything. Keep farkin that chicken!
 
2012-12-10 09:38:53 AM  
This attracted a fair amount of criticism from fairly predictible quarters, along the lines that Douthat is a misogynist troglodyte who doesn't understand that women have better things to do than bear huge broods of children


Strangely, the women I've heard make this claim usually aren't doing anything better.

/More lucrative, maybe. Better? Meh.
 
2012-12-10 09:39:01 AM  
smart people need to have more children, unless idiocracy is now the goal.
 
2012-12-10 09:55:12 AM  
I, for one, have no interest in reproducing. Not sure if that's a good thing by people's standards. Yeah, I'm white, but I'm also fairly dumb.
 
2012-12-10 12:17:22 PM  

Corvus: Or just relax immigration as needed. Not that hard of a problem to solve.


Leaving all poor countries without doctors, nurses, entrepreneurs, etc.: how thoughtful of you.
 
2012-12-10 12:20:14 PM  

Snort: The unstated issue is that brown people are breeding. AND they worship the wrong deities.


Education isn't one of them. I favor brains over melanin, no matter the race of the educated.
 
2012-12-10 12:23:32 PM  

GAT_00: ThatGuyFromTheInternet: GAT_00: Corvus: Or just relax immigration as needed. Not that hard of a problem to solve.

That's the actual solution. There are plenty of young people on the damn planet. Just get them to move here.

As a young person struggling to find a job here already, I object.

Yeah, but that's a problem with greedy businesses, not demographics.


Maybe the first is affecting the second?
 
2012-12-10 12:33:08 PM  
Some fat, middle-aged angry women object, so that's that.

Also, Coporate Muricuh wants your work/life balance to look like Stan and Ollie on a seesaw.

/misp. delib.
 
2012-12-10 02:09:21 PM  

Surpheon: But once I had one, I knew that I wanted more and not because I wanted to give her a brother or anything stupid like that.


It was to have a loyal army bred to kill, amirite? That's why I'm gonna have kids. You know what they say about the family that slaughters their enemies together.... No? They tend to have great teeth. I read it in a sociology journal once.
 
2012-12-10 02:41:21 PM  

BolshyGreatYarblocks: Corvus: Or just relax immigration as needed. Not that hard of a problem to solve.

Leaving all poor countries without doctors, nurses, entrepreneurs, etc.: how thoughtful of you.


If we didn't do our best to limit the number of home-grown members of those fields we wouldn't have shortages in the first place.
 
2012-12-10 08:17:31 PM  
The more articles I see on the hopelessness for/of the Millennial generation, the more I'm proud of myself for letting parenthood pass me by.

What were the Boomers thinking, finally realizing that parenting really is amazing?
 
2012-12-12 04:10:15 PM  

ParadisePornoTheater: The more articles I see on the hopelessness for/of the Millennial generation, the more I'm proud of myself for letting parenthood pass me by.

What were the Boomers thinking, finally realizing that parenting really is amazing?


You are the problem! Have more babies.

Keep America White! Where are your family values?

Its probably for the best. We have an over supply of smug people.
 
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