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(BBC)   Childlessness linked to early death, though chances are you'll die happy   (bbc.co.uk) divider line 88
    More: Interesting, Journal of Epidemiology, community health  
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4266 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Dec 2012 at 8:24 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



Voting Results (Smartest)
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Archived thread
2012-12-09 08:31:33 AM
13 votes:
This is a study of people who wanted and failed to have children, not those of us that are blissfully saving lots of money to spend on ourselves.
2012-12-09 08:55:09 AM
7 votes:

Girion47: I swear people with kids HATE those of us without kids.


I think the logic is "I suffered, WHY DON'T YOU?"

Girion47: "who will take care of you when you're older?"


An improbably buxom and grateful nurse/stripper that I'm putting through college.

I am glad that other people are having kids. I love kids. The best part of other people's kids is that when it's time to wipe their ass, or dispense discipline, or suffer through a tantrum, you simply give them back to their biological parent.
2012-12-09 08:35:18 AM
7 votes:
That's because we're out bar-hopping, parasailing, hiking the Rockies, and shagging like bunnies. And the earlier death is TOTALLY WORTH IT.
2012-12-09 10:17:54 AM
5 votes:

willfullyobscure: the one thing you will miss out on by choosing not to have kids is knowing what true, unconditional love means.


Not if they get a dog.
2012-12-09 08:51:27 AM
5 votes:
My buddy, his wife, their 3 year old and 22 month old are visiting for the weekend. This has strengthened my resolve to never have children, even though my mother is fearful she will die without grandchildren.
/the sound of a child crying is the most wretched sound on the planet
2012-12-09 08:49:00 AM
5 votes:

mbillips: RTFA. A statistically tiny difference in death rates was found between people who successfully had a kid through in vitro fertilization and those who tried to have one and failed. Nobody has any evidence that having kids leads to living longer among the genpop.

/No kids, and never will have
//No debt, and retirement well funded.


You have veins bursting in parents' brains right now.

I swear people with kids HATE those of us without kids. It's all snide remarks and "who will take care of you when you're older?" Sometime I get the feeling that I've personally offended these people, just because I haven't had to endure years of involuntary sleep deprivation, being puked on, spending all my money on clothes that won't fit in a couple months, tripping over toys, having to run out of businesses the second their little minds decide they need more attention, etc...
2012-12-09 08:31:09 AM
4 votes:
Better alone, without children, and with cats, than with people who make you want to put a bullet in your brain every day.

/forever alone, like a boss
2012-12-09 11:52:47 AM
3 votes:

Fizics: This does not surprise me at all, there is a childless man who lives down the street from my family that is just insufferable about our children practicing their chosen sport in the public street in front of his house. My daughter has just entered competitive singing and is building her endurance by some light sprints up and down the road while practicing her song registers. I realize the man works at night but this is simply unreasonable, some singing and light wind-sprints should absolutely not bother this man but he insists on complaining to her. This is just a case of the "child-free" thinking their rights supersede everyone else's.


No, this is an example of children who need to play in front of their own home, not the neighbor's.
2012-12-09 11:18:39 AM
3 votes:
The world sucks, humans are garbage, why make more trash for our pile of misery?
2012-12-09 10:47:26 AM
3 votes:

mr pity: Japan has looming economic issues because the population is reproducing at a decreasing rate. Retirees pay a smaller percentage of taxes and demand a larger cut of entitlements.

When your economy is based on consumption and your nation discourages immigration, what do you think happens when people stop having babies?


An expanding population cannot continue indefinitely. At some point we must decide upon an equilibrium, or war, famine and disease will decide it for us.

//在日
2012-12-09 10:47:14 AM
3 votes:
We're in our 50s & never had children by choice. I have nothing against kids,but dammit, when we have our annual party & I ask you not to bring anyone under 21, that means your 5 year old too. There's gonna be drunken adults, expensive musical equipment, there's nothing for kids to do here,my house is not child-proof & everything is either sharp or loaded.
Find a babysitter or stay home, I've told people to leave after they said "But I didn't think that applied to my 2,4 & 6 year olds!" Yes it does,see where it says NO ONE UNDER 21 on the invite,in block letters.

really,I lock up the guns during the party
2012-12-09 10:22:15 AM
3 votes:

QT_3.14159: I'm only 38 and my oldest is only 15, but I'm waaaaay looking forward to grandkids in 10 years.


But if your kid chooses to have no children, will you respect his/her decision? Or will you start with all the same complaints that have turned so many of the childless hostile against breeders?

How would you like it if your parents demanded that you NOT have children? How would you like it if they tried to sabotage your every attempt to live life in the way you choose, just to further their own agenda of making you die childless?

That's exactly what it's like for those who are childless by choice. No matter what we do, some busybody is always there to try to run our lives, to try to force us, sometimes violently, to conform to their way of life, just because we have a different opinion on what to do with the rest of our lives.
2012-12-09 09:58:56 AM
3 votes:
If you're a parent, what's the saddest thing you can fathom? Your children dying I presume. Well they will die. Life is fine and dandy when we're young. Not so great if you've been diagnosed with ALS or some other horrible illness.

I don't believe in procreation. I think that life is likely meaningless and giving someone the ability to be animated for a brief time while cursing them with the knowledge that it will end, as will the lives of everyone close to them, is worse than cruel.

Even if life is not meaningless there are issues. We all might be preparing to go to a worse place. I know we like to think that being "good" will be rewarded, and many of us think Jesus stuff, but I don't. I kinda lean towards 80% life is meaningless, 10% we go somewhere bad, 10% we go somewhere good and those percentages don't have anything to do with how we behave on earth. I think it's a bad gamble and producing children offers them no choice but to take it.

One final note is that the future of the planet is dim. Global warming and weapons of mass destruction and distancing of the economic classes are only but a few things. I don't see things being too pleasant for subsequent generations. That's another reason to abstain from the biological imperative ingrained in our minds and bodies through evolution.
2012-12-09 08:55:14 AM
3 votes:
7deadlysinners.typepad.com

//oblig
2012-12-09 08:42:23 AM
3 votes:
In other news, infertility linked to many life shortening disorders.
2012-12-09 08:41:11 AM
3 votes:
Involuntary childlessness.

My vasectomy and I will live forever, man.
2012-12-09 08:40:44 AM
3 votes:
I am in my fifties, and my wife and I have no children. We are very happy with our decision.
2012-12-09 08:40:43 AM
3 votes:
Seriously?

They needed a study?

Do ya think that women that have/need IVF might just might have something wrong with them genetically or physically that causes health problems?
2012-12-09 08:30:30 AM
3 votes:
I'm lying in bed with a 14 month that has a cold and a wife that has been a coont for the last month (at least)...

trust me youngsters... don't do it.
2012-12-09 08:25:48 AM
3 votes:
I would say if you have children you won't live longer.

It just seems longer.
2012-12-09 01:44:12 PM
2 votes:

willfullyobscure: the one thing you will miss out on by choosing not to have kids is knowing what true, unconditional love means.


I have a dog. Bonus: she doesn't complain that her squeaky toys are the wrong color, or when I knit her ugly sweaters (aka "dog humiliators".)

I'm only being semi-facetious.
2012-12-09 01:36:23 PM
2 votes:

Fizics: This does not surprise me at all, there is a childless man who lives down the street from my family that is just insufferable about our children practicing their chosen sport in the public street in front of his house. My daughter has just entered competitive singing and is building her endurance by some light sprints up and down the road while practicing her song registers. I realize the man works at night but this is simply unreasonable, some singing and light wind-sprints should absolutely not bother this man but he insists on complaining to her. This is just a case of the "child-free" thinking their rights supersede everyone else's.


Wow. Are you really taking your daughter's side in this scenario? Wow.
2012-12-09 01:06:25 PM
2 votes:
It's entertaining how the cry of "childless couples live empty lives devoid of meaning" are in-effect agreeing with the regressive, evangelical belief system that casts homosexuals as inferior beings. I wonder how many of them even realize what role they play in that argument.
2012-12-09 12:31:42 PM
2 votes:

Surpheon: the ha ha guy: If you like kids, great, but saying it once is enough.

Not even sure how that is possible. I have a friend who lived in Spain for a year. He had an awesome experience - one I appreciate, but will never do myself. I don't get all pissy when he talks about it or suggests I try something like it myself. He invested a part of his life in it and shares how valuable it was. In a similar manner, I've invested in kids and I'm likely to share how that's turning out for me. I do consciously work to make sure it's not all I talk about (particularly with the wife; I can see how it's way too easy to fall into the trap of only relating to each other as parents and losing the arguing politics/movie geekery/bad puns/trivia arguments/etc aspects that make the relationship satisfying) but unless it's just casual chit-chat you're going to hear about the biggest time investment of my life more than once.


There's nothing wrong with your friend talking about what a great time he had in Spain; the problem is if he constantly talks about why YOU need to go to Spain, why you'll never be a complete human being unless you go to Spain, why God disapproves of people who choose not to go to Spain, or how he just can't understand how ANYBODY can find life worth living, if it's not lived in Spain.
2012-12-09 12:28:20 PM
2 votes:

QT_3.14159: The reason I spoke up in this thread at all was the notion that those who are kid-less will die happy.


One of my best friends is a 73 year old man who has never had a wife or kids. He has been on charity trips all around the world, and has saved countless lives, in no small part due to his ability to leave without worrying about his family. He still gets letters, phone calls, and even visits from the people he's helped over the years.

He might not be ecstatic 24/7, but I can assure you he is far happier than my aunt, who was divorced with two kids at 16. Or my coworker, who is raising four kids alone while her husband is running around with some girl he met at a bar. Or my uncle, whose kids all disowned him. Or one of my other friends, whose young kids all hate him because they have taken their mothers side in some decades-long fight over some long forgotten topic. Or my grandfather, who lived next door to his son on one side, and his daughter on the other, yet was dead for two months before anyone found out. And so on.

All in all, the only parent I know who is happy with his life is my Amish neighbor, but that can be attributed just as much to the Amish lifestyle as it can to the children.
2012-12-09 11:52:17 AM
2 votes:

QT_3.14159: So when you go see a really good movie you don't feel inclined to tell the people around you how great it was?

Imagine that feeling multiplied by a bajillion.


If I tell someone they should really go see a movie, it is at most costing them a single evening and $10-$20. Not every second and dime they make for the rest of their lives.

I'm not in the business to guilt anyone, but if I didn't tell my kids just what a powerful and amazing experience being a parent can be, I would be failing them.

So tell them. Don't guilt them into that decision because you want the fringe-benefits of grandparenthood.
2012-12-09 11:46:50 AM
2 votes:

QT_3.14159: So when you go see a really good movie you don't feel inclined to tell the people around you how great it was?


So if someone says "I don't like Star Wars", you'll invite them over to your house for a Star Wars marathon? You'll bring up their dislike of Star Wars at every possible gathering? You'll give them Star Wars gifts throughout the year, to guilt them into liking Star Wars?

If you like kids, great, but saying it once is enough. If I say I don't want kids, it might just be that I have more facts about my personal life than you're aware of, and I feel that having a wife and kids isn't compatible with my current situation.
2012-12-09 11:41:18 AM
2 votes:
Just turned 40, and no kids in sight. I take a Freakonomics-ish stand on it: recognizing that human behavior is driven by incentives, and for me, the incentive to be a parent just doesn't exist (furthermore, I'm gay). In what I've observed with other people, I just can't get past thinking of children as a liability rather than an asset. I can't perceive them as these little people that eventually grow up and learn to take care of themselves and solve their own problems. Especially when I watch this failing to happen with other people and their own kids. I just see an inferior copy of an inferior copy until they're all reduced to grunting and pointing.

Finally, the world needs fewer people, not more.
2012-12-09 11:34:37 AM
2 votes:
My husband and I are childless by choice, and we've been lucky in that nobody has tried minding our business for us -- except one weird friend-of-a-friend I met last summer. She tried the "but if nobody had kids then humanity would die out" argument, and I pointed out you could say the same thing about any choice anybody made -- "You want to be a doctor? But if everybody wanted to be a doctor, we'd all starve to death because there would be nobody to raise our food!" "You want to be a farmer? But if everybody wanted to be a farmer, we'd all die of easily treatable diseases because there would be no doctors!"

She was not amused.
2012-12-09 11:30:35 AM
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: You younger guys need to be careful. I know a few couples that got married and vociferously declared they were never having kids. All was fine for a number of years, until the wives approached or hit age 40. Things changed very quickly... (one of the couples is still together, the other two have since split up, after 15 and 9 years of marriage).


"You know what will save your relationship? KIDS!"

Great advice.
2012-12-09 11:29:52 AM
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: You younger guys need to be careful. I know a few couples that got married and vociferously declared they were never having kids. All was fine for a number of years, until the wives approached or hit age 40. Things changed very quickly... (one of the couples is still together, the other two have since split up, after 15 and 9 years of marriage).



So what? Things change and you cross those bridges then.  'Let's have kids so we stay together in ten years' seems like a bad reason to have kids.
2012-12-09 11:29:05 AM
2 votes:

QT_3.14159: That kind of misses the point of grand kids. I don't plan On guilting anyone into it. I just look forward to enjoying them.


QT_3.14159: And yes, I'd probably hit on some of the breeder bingo things, but I'd like to think I won't be too pushy about it. I guess we'll see if / when that happens.


You're aware that everything on there is a guilt-trip, right? Why not just take responsibility for your own desires? If you want occasional contact with kids without raising them, wouldn't joining a mentorship program be more responsible than nagging your kids to enter into a life-long commitment to children involving an investment that you yourself admit you would no longer want to have? I've just never understood this need that people with children have to make other people also have children.
2012-12-09 11:15:17 AM
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: How do you really know that you're happier without kids if you've never had them.


I know someone who spent half his life in the military. He claims that being in the military was the best thing to ever happen to him.

But that doesn't mean I'm going to give up the next eight years of my life just to find out if I would like being in the military just as much as he did.
2012-12-09 11:03:02 AM
2 votes:

WhippingBoy: How do you really know that you're happier without kids if you've never had them.

/I do not like them, Sam-I-Am...


You could say the same thing about face tattoos. But they're both decisions with far-reaching effects on your personal and professional lives that will have consequences for many years after you choose to have them. So it's not the sort of thing you just test-drive to figure out if it's the right thing for you.
2012-12-09 10:55:20 AM
2 votes:

QT_3.14159: I would be very sad. And yes, I'd probably hit on some of the breeder bingo things, but I'd like to think I won't be too pushy about it. I guess we'll see if / when that happens.


Couldn't you just adopt a kid instead of guilting someone else into having one for you?
2012-12-09 10:47:29 AM
2 votes:

QT_3.14159: SundaesChild: Sure I do. Perhaps not the depth of love I feel for my daughter, but when he does his business behind the bathroom door instead of outside because he hates going out in the rain, I just sigh and clean it up instead of driving him to the nearest pound.

And if he attacked your daughter, all that unconditional love would dry up in an instant. If you had a child that attacked another of your children, it doesn't make the love go away, it leaves you heart broken and tormented because you still feel that "unconditional love" regardless of their behavior. You may be able to summon the courage to do what needs to be done with the aggressor, but it will leave you broken and inconsolable.

Pets are not the same. We like to pretend, and I'm not saying they aren't meaningful and often very dear, but it's not the same.


Oh, it's absolutely not the same. I just don't feel it's right to shame childless people for not having children. Some of them don't and should not have children for a reason.
2012-12-09 10:46:53 AM
2 votes:

Glockenspiel Hero: I honestly don't understand the antagonism on these threads. If you don't want kids it's fine- we made a different choice but I won't judge you for yours. We did the infertility shuffle before adopting so i realize all too well that sometimes childlessness is not voluntary.

/was woken up by the two of them having a screaming fight
//anyone want two kids, fair condition,low mileage?


It's human nature. People hate other people who don't look, think, and act exactly like them. In reality, tolerance, acceptance, and empathy are (unfortunately) absurd fantasies that will never come to pass.

Look around you: people hate and ridicule others if they use a different brand of cell phone. Do you honestly think there will ever come a time when everyone locks hands and sings kumbayah?
2012-12-09 10:45:57 AM
2 votes:
TFA: Involuntary childlessness may increase the likelihood of early death, the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health reports.

There's the key. Having some sort of genetic disorder may make one more prone to dying early.
2012-12-09 10:15:15 AM
2 votes:
the one thing you will miss out on by choosing not to have kids is knowing what true, unconditional love means.
2012-12-09 09:36:08 AM
2 votes:

Glockenspiel Hero: I honestly don't understand the antagonism on these threads. If you don't want kids it's fine- we made a different choice but I won't judge you for yours.

You

understand that childlessness is a choice, but many do not.

After enduring years of nasty comments at gatherings (I can fill up the 'breeder bingo' card from this past thanksgiving alone), general distrust due to some myth that those who are unmarried and childless are mentally diseased, surprise dates with random women (once including my first cousin, which was set up by my aunt), etc, it gets old.

Yes, there are some parents out there that understand it's not their duty to dictate how others should run their lives, but they're about as rare as a decent police officer.
2012-12-09 09:14:42 AM
2 votes:
So is anyone studying women who are voluntarily childless? Because right now I'm planning to live comfortably well into my 90s.
2012-12-09 09:09:49 AM
2 votes:

t3knomanser: Girion47: I swear people with kids HATE those of us without kids.

I think the logic is "I suffered, WHY DON'T YOU?"

Girion47: "who will take care of you when you're older?"

An improbably buxom and grateful nurse/stripper that I'm putting through college.

I am glad that other people are having kids. I love kids. The best part of other people's kids is that when it's time to wipe their ass, or dispense discipline, or suffer through a tantrum, you simply give them back to their biological parent.


Fark needs a LIKE button, just for statements like this.
2012-12-09 08:54:55 AM
2 votes:
I am an infertile woman who always wanted children. I skipped IVF and adopted two. Now I have my two, five stepchildren, two grandchildren, and a temporary exchange student.

I cannot for the life of me figure out whether this tiny study has any implications for me at all. Probably not, because they have no idea what caused the small difference in the groups.
2012-12-09 08:40:12 AM
2 votes:
i.chzbgr.com
2012-12-10 01:44:49 AM
1 votes:

Girion47: This is a study of people who wanted and failed to have children, not those of us that are blissfully saving lots of money to spend on ourselves.


Exactly. All my friends with kids are miserable, apathetic, bitter jerks. The best way to go through life is unmarried, with a good dog for companionship, the occasional loose woman to liven up your bedsport, and learn how to cook for yourself.
2012-12-09 08:10:20 PM
1 votes:

Surpheon: WhippingBoy: you're painting with an awfully broad brush.

An equally broad brush is the absolute statement:
heili skrimsli: "Childfree people are NOT looking wistfully at those with kids and lamenting what we don't have. We are not 'sad' about this."

Unless you play dumbass language games like anyone who has a moment of regret is no longer "childfree" but now defined as "childless".

Absolutes are always wrong.


It's not a dumbass language game. There's a childfree blogger with a sociology background who writes about being childfree and she actually at one point tried to find all these women that supposedly are so regretful that they never had children. She thought they would be easy to find, given that the message you're spouting (most women who choose not to have children regret it/wish they had).

But when she tried to find them to find out how prevalent those regrets are, she found that they are not at all common. In fact, women who regret not having children by choice are exceedingly rare.
2012-12-09 06:22:31 PM
1 votes:
I'm sure this was a fine study and all, but not taking into account the number of women who die during pregnancy or childbirth seems like a significant omission when calculating the likelihood of death in relation to childbearing vs. childlessness: Link

/just a thought
2012-12-09 04:21:44 PM
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: trappedspirit: There are many people's evolutionary lines that need to leave the gene pool. I have no problem with self-darwination.

Everybody check off "genetic immortality" on your cards.


That bingo card is about having kids. I am decidedly for certain people getting out of that business altogether. I don't know why you would try and convince other people to have or not have kids any more than you would try and convince other people to eat or not eat meat.
2012-12-09 03:27:00 PM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: How do you really know that you're happier without kids if you've never had them.

/I do not like them, Sam-I-Am...


Simply put, I'm not ready to have them. And I think it the responsible thing to do to not have kids until you are good and ready to have them. And that means not pawning off the raising of your children to society at large when it should be your responsibility.

My parents were rotten people; my mother was a manipulative, lazy hag and my father a passive-aggressive. Last I spoke with them two years ago they were miserable and angry at everything and I assume that hasn't changed. I want to assure myself that I am not going to be like them when or if I bring kids into the world because it's the responsible thing to do.
2012-12-09 02:40:19 PM
1 votes:
So after reading through this thread, the only conclusion I can come to is I'm glad I don't belong to some of your families and/or have some of your friends.

I am 27, I don't have kids, and I can't ever imagine wanting kids.

Sure, this may change in 5 or 10 years, but at the moment, I am content living my life as if I'm in college and doing whatever the hell I want on the weekends. Sleep til noon? Sure. Come home at 3am? No problem. Watch football all day? Fabulous.

No one in my family bothers me even a little about it. None of my friends with kids try to persuade me to find a husband and have kids. Of course they talk about their kids. Why wouldn't they talk about their kids? That is a huge part of their lives. They aren't offended when I talk about the things I do with my life that are important to me, why should I be offended when they do the same? I'm genuinely interested in the things they have to say.

However, if they got preachy, I'm sure I would change my opinion.

I am super pumped about my brother and his wife having a baby. I am going be the cool aunt. I will have the perks of kids without the detriments.
2012-12-09 02:23:34 PM
1 votes:
Seriously, same thing. The worst is my cousin's wife. They met on eHarmony. Within a year they were married. Seven months after that, baby.

She won't farking stop with the constant bingo comments. I think this Thanksgiving she actually hit me with everything on the card and she kept trying to shove her baby at me. No, I don't want to hold your baby. That's why I have a drink in each hand.



Print out and take the breeder bingo card to the next family event. Yell "BINGO!" when you have a row or column checked off. Point out to her the ones she missed and/or what would have given you a bingo earlier.

Also, as a female, people are always trying to hand me babies. I find that if I hold them with my arms fully extended from my body and hands flat and open towards the ceiling, that the parents take them back immediately and do not hand them to me again.


How can you die happy without grandchildren?

Really? No old person could possibly be happy without grandchildren? They can't have other interests and goals? At what age does this happen?


the one thing you will miss out on by choosing not to have kids is knowing what true, unconditional love means.

My husband and I have unconditional love. My dog loves me unconditionally. I know people who hate their parents, so a child's love is not unconditional.

When the hubs and I got together, we decided we didn't want kids. Six years later we decided that we didn't want to die alone and wanted someone to love and care for so, in return (hopefully), they'll do the same for us in our old age.


Really? You had a kid because you didn't want to hire a nurse or make some friends? Visit any nursing home to see how likely the kid caring for you in your old age is. Also consider how much time and energy you spent on taking care of YOUR parents.
2012-12-09 02:05:00 PM
1 votes:

QT_3.14159: the ha ha guy: But if your kid chooses to have no children, will you respect his/her decision? Or will you start with all the same complaints that have turned so many of the childless hostile against breeders?

How would you like it if your parents demanded that you NOT have children? How would you like it if they tried to sabotage your every attempt to live life in the way you choose, just to further their own agenda of making you die childless?

That's exactly what it's like for those who are childless by choice. No matter what we do, some busybody is always there to try to run our lives, to try to force us, sometimes violently, to conform to their way of life, just because we have a different opinion on what to do with the rest of our lives.

I have 4 kids. I'm sure that one of them will likely choose not to have kids and I will be sad with them on days they're sad about it and I'll be happy with them when they're happy about it. (yes, both happen - at least in most women who choose not to have kids).

I figure I'm in for grandkids from at least one of my spawn, though. Surely. *crosses fingers*


Where are these people who are sad about their choice to not have children? There is no research at all that supports your claim that women who choose not to have children are 'sad' about their choice. Finding people who have regret about being childfree is not easy.

I have never met someone who was sad about being childfree. On the contrary, they're all happier than the parents I know, who constantly look at the things we have and the places we go and say 'It must be nice.'

Yes, it farking is nice. Why do you think we childfree people don't have kids?

Childfree people are NOT looking wistfully at those with kids and lamenting what we don't have. We are not 'sad' about this.
2012-12-09 01:57:46 PM
1 votes:
For many, raising children is a rewarding experience that they enjoy sharing with others who haven't had that experience.
For many, raising children has been a terrible experience that they share with others as a way of trying to validate a choice that just didn't work out for them the way they thought it would.

My ex-wife wanted kids for the reason that she didn't want to die alone. That's a pretty crappy reason IMO.

/Part of the reason she is ex
//May have kids for better reasons
2012-12-09 12:57:43 PM
1 votes:

Surpheon: It sounds like the problem is more having lousy friends than 'breeders versus kid-haters'.


I have plenty of friends who are perfectly happy with their life. None have kids.
2012-12-09 12:47:59 PM
1 votes:

Surpheon: WhippingBoy: There's a difference between responding to someone's queries about yourself, and speaking about yourself unbidden.

That's not a very useful formula to get to know people. It cleaves too closely to the "shut up and stand against the wall until you can go home" introvert strategy I inherently want to take.


It's simple (in theory, not practice): make it about the other person, not about yourself. If you can get someone to talk about themselves so that they don't feel like their imposing or pushing themselves on you you'll have a friend for life.

Have you ever just met someone, and in 10 minutes you know everything about their dietary choices, their religious beliefs, and who they think should have won "American Idol" without you actually asking about those things? Those are the boring people.
2012-12-09 12:43:39 PM
1 votes:

Goddess of Atheism: the problem is if he constantly talks about why YOU need to go to Spain,


If he did that constantly, it would get boring not offensive. But when he busts out with some version of "You really need to immerse yourself living in a foreign country - it's an amazing experience!" my reaction is not to get all butthurt about him playing 'world traveler bingo' or something but rather to appreciate what he's saying. It is friends like him that make me appreciate that kids are maybe not the end-all of life changing experiences, and if he restricted his enthusiasm for travel out of concern of offending he would be depriving me of that interesting information.

Now that I think about it, all my childless friends have similarly invested at least a portion of their life in something big - travel, starting a business, a political campaign (wait - she has kids now too; damn overachiever), overcoming chronic illness - something.
2012-12-09 12:41:52 PM
1 votes:

Surpheon: I have a friend who lived in Spain for a year. He had an awesome experience - one I appreciate, but will never do myself. I don't get all pissy when he talks about it or suggests I try something like it myself.


Does he turn other people against you over your choice not to go to Spain, to the extent that you have to cut off contact with them? Does he insult you over your choice to not live in Spain every time he speaks to you? Does he invite you on trips, intending to trick you into being stranded in Spain? Does he send you books, videos, and plane tickets to guilt you into going to Spain? Does he use religious texts to convince you that you're "diseased" for not going to Spain?

If the problem were just a few comments, virtually nobody would be complaining. But this problem has literally destroyed families and friendships, yet these people just keep on until one side either gives in, or dies.
2012-12-09 12:36:34 PM
1 votes:
I have a cell of Jehova's Witnesses in my family. My experience has been that when someone tries desperately to guilt or scare you into joining their group, it's typically for their benefit rather than yours.
2012-12-09 12:32:55 PM
1 votes:
... And of course, once you've had children, you're not exactly allowed to "change your mind" and realize they're not worth the trouble.

"Tot Mom".
2012-12-09 12:29:05 PM
1 votes:

Surpheon: WhippingBoy: If you get other people to talk about their interests, you're an interesting person
If you talk about your interests, you're a boring person

So I'm always talking to a boring person?


There's a difference between responding to someone's queries about yourself, and speaking about yourself unbidden.
2012-12-09 12:22:37 PM
1 votes:
QT, while I respect that you are being polite I don't think you get it. You say the childless lives you see are empty or lonely? Who are you to judge that emotion in other?

My wife and I are approaching 40 with no kids and are totally happy. I'm about to start my second business and spent the last 4 years traveling around the world in support of the electric vehicle industry.

Fulfillment is where you find it. My amazing and awesome life would not be possible with children. Either myself or my wife would have to give up our dreams to make it happen and we're not willing to do that. Is it selfish? Maybe a little, but my EV work alone has made the lives of thousands of people better and green'd up a little bit of this planet, so I don't fear for my karma.

One man loneliness is another mans paradise my friend. Have a good one.
2012-12-09 12:17:02 PM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: If you get other people to talk about their interests, you're an interesting person
If you talk about your interests, you're a boring person


So I'm always talking to a boring person?
2012-12-09 12:01:42 PM
1 votes:

QT_3.14159: I don't have a problem with people who choose not to have kids. I'm not a big fan of other people's kids either, so I understand where the motivation comes from.


So what makes you think grandchildren are a good fit for you?
2012-12-09 12:00:33 PM
1 votes:
My eldest niece asked me why I didn't have any kids. I told her it was because it was illegal to beat them.
2012-12-09 11:56:46 AM
1 votes:

QT_3.14159: LouDobbsAwaaaay: QT_3.14159: That kind of misses the point of grand kids. I don't plan On guilting anyone into it. I just look forward to enjoying them.

QT_3.14159: And yes, I'd probably hit on some of the breeder bingo things, but I'd like to think I won't be too pushy about it. I guess we'll see if / when that happens.

You're aware that everything on there is a guilt-trip, right? Why not just take responsibility for your own desires? If you want occasional contact with kids without raising them, wouldn't joining a mentorship program be more responsible than nagging your kids to enter into a life-long commitment to children involving an investment that you yourself admit you would no longer want to have? I've just never understood this need that people with children have to make other people also have children.

So when you go see a really good movie you don't feel inclined to tell the people around you how great it was?

Imagine that feeling multiplied by a bajillion.

This is why we tell people about how rewarding raising kids can be. Yes, it is hard. But doing the hard things in life are most rewarding because they are hard. I felt the same way when I hiked the grand canyon rim to rim. It was hard, it hurt, it was amazing.



I always feel like I've committed a social faux pas when I turn a random gathering into a conversation about my interests unless they've already made clear they are into the same stuff.
2012-12-09 11:56:08 AM
1 votes:

aagrajag: I don't think that was the point of his post. He spoke of the *wives* approaching 40, and then things changing. It seems he was referencing couples who may or may not survive as a couple when one member suddenly decides that reproduction is sooper-important.


Reducing his point to "sometimes people break up"? I know several couples who had kids and then split up later (I'm sure most people know someone fitting that description these days). All the same fall-out from a relationship ending plus the fact that you now share a child.
2012-12-09 11:53:47 AM
1 votes:

Abox: Goddess of Atheism: She tried the "but if nobody had kids then humanity would die out" argument

I would have just agreed with her and left her to realize she hadn't said anything relevant.


We were in the house of a mutual friend, so I had to be polite. (Plus, I confess: that actually annoyed her more than if I outright argued with her. When she made the "humanity dies out" comment, I pretended I had no idea she was nagging me to procreate, but was assuaging her "fear" that my childfree state meant the world population would soon drop from 7 billion+ to zero.)
2012-12-09 11:51:56 AM
1 votes:

willfullyobscure: the one thing you will miss out on by choosing not to have kids is knowing what true, unconditional love means.


Untrue, I still have parents of my own.
2012-12-09 11:50:58 AM
1 votes:

QT_3.14159: How can you die happy without grandchildren? I get that having kids is hard and expensive... but then you get grandchildren. All the fun and enjoyment of your own kids without the responsibility. Not to mention you get to see your own kids get the payback for all their fits and tantrums.

I'm only 38 and my oldest is only 15, but I'm waaaaay looking forward to grandkids in 10 years.


But I get all the bennies of grandchildren right now, with my nephews...

Seriously. All of the fun and enjoyment, and none of the responsibility. Except I didn't have to raise anybody else in order to get there.
2012-12-09 11:46:26 AM
1 votes:
Childless does not equal alone. I will still have my husband, sillies.

And having children does not absolutely guarantee that you won't die alone yourselves.
2012-12-09 11:44:50 AM
1 votes:

LouDobbsAwaaaay: WhippingBoy: You younger guys need to be careful. I know a few couples that got married and vociferously declared they were never having kids. All was fine for a number of years, until the wives approached or hit age 40. Things changed very quickly... (one of the couples is still together, the other two have since split up, after 15 and 9 years of marriage).

"You know what will save your relationship? KIDS!"

Great advice.


I don't think that was the point of his post. He spoke of the *wives* approaching 40, and then things changing. It seems he was referencing couples who may or may not survive as a couple when one member suddenly decides that reproduction is sooper-important.
2012-12-09 11:38:52 AM
1 votes:

cryinoutloud: I was never even aware of this strange persecution complex until I read about it on Fark. But now that I know about it--you are all perfectly justified in hating anyone who has kids.


People who have kids are fine, people who insist that others must do the same are not.

When you go to a family gathering, just to have all your "relatives" tell you that you're "godless", " diseased", "satanic", and various other insults, just because you don't have a wife and kids, you might understand what we're talking about.

In the last two years, I have never stayed at a family gathering long enough to finish the meal. Invariably, one relative will always pipe up "so why don't you have kids yet", then the shiatstorm starts, and only ends when I leave.

/I only went this year because that relative had died, but another one seems to have taken her place.
//Next year, I'm just going to send a card.
2012-12-09 11:37:55 AM
1 votes:

Goddess of Atheism: She tried the "but if nobody had kids then humanity would die out" argument


I would have just agreed with her and left her to realize she hadn't said anything relevant.
2012-12-09 11:20:10 AM
1 votes:

cryinoutloud: Girion47: You have veins bursting in parents' brains right now.
I swear people with kids HATE those of us without kids. It's all snide remarks and "who will take care of you when you're older?"

I was never even aware of this strange persecution complex until I read about it on Fark. But now that I know about it--you are all perfectly justified in hating anyone who has kids. You poor things--maybe you can buy something that will soothe your butthurt. You know, with all the money you've saved by not having kids. And if that's not enough, why, just keep acting like a martyr. Someone is bound to care.


You haven't met my mother-in-law. My mom while severely disappointed at least respects our decision, my MIL seems intent on destroying the marriage so her daughter can find someone else that might convince her to have kids. What's sick is she's using her 92 yr. old mother being in a nursing home to try and scare my wife into having children.
2012-12-09 11:10:50 AM
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: How do you really know that you're happier without kids if you've never had them.

/I do not like them, Sam-I-Am...


I've tried that same argument regarding certain sexual acts, and it doesn't work there either.

How do you know that cramming lampreys up your butt whilst rubbing Scotch Bonnets into your eyes isn't enjoyable?

//the above is not the act in question
2012-12-09 10:47:08 AM
1 votes:
Are you sure that people with kids don't just imagine that their lives are dragging on for an eternity?

/headline is a troll
//might as well play along
2012-12-09 10:43:37 AM
1 votes:

QT_3.14159: I figure I'm in for grandkids from at least one of my spawn, though. Surely. *crosses fingers*


And if none choose to have children, what then? Will you continue to respect their decisions, as you claim you would for one, or would you start filling up the bingo card until at least one of them gives in and you get grandkids?
2012-12-09 10:41:14 AM
1 votes:
I'm doing my kid a favor by not having him. And everyone else. My kid was going to be a jerk.
2012-12-09 10:22:39 AM
1 votes:

king of vegas: If you're a parent, what's the saddest thing you can fathom? Your children dying I presume. Well they will die. Life is fine and dandy when we're young. Not so great if you've been diagnosed with ALS or some other horrible illness.

I don't believe in procreation. I think that life is likely meaningless and giving someone the ability to be animated for a brief time while cursing them with the knowledge that it will end, as will the lives of everyone close to them, is worse than cruel.

Even if life is not meaningless there are issues. We all might be preparing to go to a worse place. I know we like to think that being "good" will be rewarded, and many of us think Jesus stuff, but I don't. I kinda lean towards 80% life is meaningless, 10% we go somewhere bad, 10% we go somewhere good and those percentages don't have anything to do with how we behave on earth. I think it's a bad gamble and producing children offers them no choice but to take it.

One final note is that the future of the planet is dim. Global warming and weapons of mass destruction and distancing of the economic classes are only but a few things. I don't see things being too pleasant for subsequent generations. That's another reason to abstain from the biological imperative ingrained in our minds and bodies through evolution.


Ha! These are the reasons I give when people persist on asking why I don't want / have kids. (Apparently, "coz I don't want to", is not a valid answer to them).
2012-12-09 10:13:41 AM
1 votes:

Girion47: This is a study of people who wanted and failed to have children, not those of us that are blissfully saving lots of money to spend on ourselves.


And also note that it's a sample that at least 50% have some sort of medical problem. People with one medical problem might very well have another...
2012-12-09 10:12:00 AM
1 votes:

QT_3.14159: All the fun and enjoyment of your own kids without the responsibility.


Meh, by that point I'm too old to enjoy it. I remember my grandparents- I hated visiting because they were old and boring and there was nothing to do but watch TV.
2012-12-09 10:09:20 AM
1 votes:
You might die sooner, but you will die with more of your money than those of us with children will have.
2012-12-09 09:57:34 AM
1 votes:
Given the focus on couples that had IVF, I suspect the woman that couldn't get pregnant had underlying health problems that drove the death rate.
2012-12-09 09:46:39 AM
1 votes:

the ha ha guy: I can fill up the 'breeder bingo' card from this past thanksgiving alone


How you doin?

Seriously, same thing. The worst is my cousin's wife. They met on eHarmony. Within a year they were married. Seven months after that, baby.

She won't farking stop with the constant bingo comments. I think this Thanksgiving she actually hit me with everything on the card and she kept trying to shove her baby at me. No, I don't want to hold your baby. That's why I have a drink in each hand.

She's also still mad at me because I had a party at my house, invited all my friends, and it wasn't child friendly.
2012-12-09 09:23:23 AM
1 votes:

Lady Beryl Ersatz-Wendigo: So is anyone studying women who are voluntarily childless?


Every married guy with children. 
2012-12-09 08:46:29 AM
1 votes:

mbillips: RTFA. A statistically tiny difference in death rates was found between people who successfully had a kid through in vitro fertilization and those who tried to have one and failed. Nobody has any evidence that having kids leads to living longer among the genpop.

/No kids, and never will have
//No debt, and retirement well funded.


Ah, but you will never know the joys of spending a half-million dollars for the ability to say that there's a bit of protein that somewhat resembles yours running around somewhere.
2012-12-09 08:45:37 AM
1 votes:

bronyaur1: I am in my fifties, and my wife and I have no children. We are very happy with our decision.


I am in my thirties, and my wife and I have two children. We are very happy with our decision.
2012-12-09 08:41:35 AM
1 votes:
RTFA. A statistically tiny difference in death rates was found between people who successfully had a kid through in vitro fertilization and those who tried to have one and failed. Nobody has any evidence that having kids leads to living longer among the genpop.

/No kids, and never will have
//No debt, and retirement well funded.
 
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