Festivus and hipster culture are not the same thing. Unless they are now, because Seinfeld is 'retro'.

God I hate hipsters.

Wayne 985: As an atheist, stuff like this worries me. You win more flies with honey than you do with vinegar, and stacking beer cans next to people's religious symbols is going to come across as petty and utterly shallow.

The problem is that, with atheism, the "honey" is reason and evidence. You can't "win" people over to reason and evidence if they've rejected them and if they haven't rejected them then there's no need to "win" them at all, you just have to wait for them to work things out for themselves. Worrying that people will not become atheists because some atheists are sarcastic dicks sort of misses the point. As an atheist / buddhist, I don't care what religion people practice so long as they don't inflict it on other people. Reason will eventually win out over superstition.

WhippingBoy: Well you're a miserable little thing, aren't you?

He was talking about something that brings him joy (watching people post stupidity) and you call him 'miserable'?? I think you should take a look in the mirror.

I got a lot of problems with you people!

Why don't we celebrate the birth of Santa?

StrangeQ: Monkeyhouse Zendo: Reason will eventually win out over superstition.

That has always worried me. It's like the Just-world hypothesis; we would like for it to be true, but there's no promise that it is. I would like to believe that left to their own devices, people would eventually come to the conclusion that an empiricistic philosophy towards understanding other people and the world around us would win out. But experience says that isn't true. You will have radicals that will hold to their believes without proof, evidence or regard towards the consequences towards others. For some you may be able to adopt a live and let live posture, but you will often find yourself unavoidably apposed to many of their positions. And then there are those whose consequences suggest that it would be better if you did not exist. If you try to fight that with passivity you're going to lose.

I hope you're right though, and eventually people adopt a logical, knowledgable and understanding view towards each other. I think it follows the eastern philosophy that the way cannot be taught it can only be known.

I take that as meaning the way cannot be forced. People have to come to their own decisions, Inception, if you like. But I also don't think there's anything wrong with dropping little hints along the path, especially when the group you're aiming them at is at once so attached to their beliefs and so paranoid of them.

Read Supersense: Why we believe the unbelievable by Bruce Hood. He posits that there will always be magical thinking because we are hard-wired for it. He demonstrates through psychological studies with children; case studies of brain injuries, disease, and elderly dementia; as well as simple illusions, how our brains make shiat up and there isn't a helluva lot you can do about it. Consider your sentimental attachments to inanimate objects as a simple example. It has made me self-conscious of the magical thoughts I have, that I override in next instant with a reasonable dismissal. Hell, I don't believe in ghosts, but I remember the time I had a mouse in my kitchen at night, and a bread bag was moving on my counter, and my first instantaneous, stupid thought was "DEMONIC BREAD!" followed by "No you moron, mice. WTF, demons? Where did that come from?"

On the other hand, if it wasn't for our unreasonable brains and our magical thinking strategies growing up, the chaotic universe would be overwhelming, we wouldn't form social relationships as we know them (for better or for worse), and we wouldn't be very creative. Your brain is a jerk that is constantly farking with you, but for your own good, essentially.

It's a fascinating read and it has helped me to be somewhat more patient with magical thinking in others (thought it gives me pedantic urges to tell them why they're thinking what they're thinking). I think Bruce Hood was featured on Fark a while back with his "would you wear a killer's cardigan" experiment.

Spaced Lion: DickNomms: That's like having a Christmas tree made of beer cans. Festivus deserves more respect than that.

Damn right. The material of the pole means something. Iron or steel represents the strength of the family.

/Then again, hipsters are not known for their strength

Officially, it's made of aluminum.

"It's made from aluminum. Very high strength-to-weight ratio."
-Frank Costanza
Festivus, Dec. 18, 1997

Look, the festivus pole is a symbol to combat the commercialism of the Christmas holidays. It needs to be one solid piece of metal, decorated with tinsel. There will be a dinner to air out grievances, followed by some strenuous wrestling.

/So sayeth The Costanza

GilRuiz1: Ennuipoet: FTA: "This year, they're joined by an 8-foot-tall aluminum Festivus Pole, symbol of a Dec. 23 atheist "holiday"..."

When did Festivus become an atheist holiday? All something needs to do is NOT be Christmas and suddenly it's atheistic?


You must have missed the memo. Do a Google search for "festivus" and "atheism" and, in addition to this Florida story, you'll see lots of other references going back years.

Festivus has nothing to do with Atheism or Christianity. It's a made up, hilarious "holiday" from a TV show.

Monkeyhouse Zendo: Reason will eventually win out over superstition.

That has always worried me. It's like the Just-world hypothesis; we would like for it to be true, but there's no promise that it is. I would like to believe that left to their own devices, people would eventually come to the conclusion that an empiricistic philosophy towards understanding other people and the world around us would win out. But experience says that isn't true. You will have radicals that will hold to their believes without proof, evidence or regard towards the consequences towards others. For some you may be able to adopt a live and let live posture, but you will often find yourself unavoidably apposed to many of their positions. And then there are those whose consequences suggest that it would be better if you did not exist. If you try to fight that with passivity you're going to lose.

I hope you're right though, and eventually people adopt a logical, knowledgable and understanding view towards each other. I think it follows the eastern philosophy that the way cannot be taught it can only be known.

I take that as meaning the way cannot be forced. People have to come to their own decisions, Inception, if you like. But I also don't think there's anything wrong with dropping little hints along the path, especially when the group you're aiming them at is at once so attached to their beliefs and so paranoid of them.

That is not a festivus pole. If he wanted a festivus pole, he should have added a real one. It should be a single piece of aluminum, not some hipster PBR.

That's like having a Christmas tree made of beer cans. Festivus deserves more respect than that.

As an atheist, stuff like this worries me. You win more flies with honey than you do with vinegar, and stacking beer cans next to people's religious symbols is going to come across as petty and utterly shallow.

Farking Canuck: WhippingBoy: Well you're a miserable little thing, aren't you?

He was talking about something that brings him joy (watching people post stupidity) and you call him 'miserable'?? I think you should take a look in the mirror.

He's not happy unless he goes out of his way and finds someone to look down on. I think he's probably a pretty miserable and unhappy person.

This is a really great way to separate out sensible people from zealots. On both sides.

Example. I don't like nativity scenes. But I don't complain about them. My reaction is, "Meh." I'm not a Christian, not religious at all, though I admire a lot of what Jesus said. But the nativity thing is (to me) the worst kind of childish fable. Virgin birth, a star as a portent, wise men--silly. What can it possibly matter where or how Jesus was born? It's like George Washington chopping down a cherry tree, or Abe Lincoln being born in a log cabin. But even if I don't like the silly nativity fable, seeing it on display is way, way down on the list of things that get my dander up. It poses no threat to me.

I can understand that a Christian might not like a PBR Festivus pole. The question is whether he froths at the mouth over his religious rights being violated, or he says, "Meh." Or better yet, "I get it. It's actually kind of funny. And not a threat to my beliefs at all."

Say "meh" and we can have a beer. PBR or something else, your pick.

But Marc Rohr, a law professor at Nova Southeastern University called the display an unusual move. "I think the atheists of the world are more interested in preventing religious displays on public land than in joining them.''

There, I fixed it for him.