If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Telegraph)   "Catcher in the Rye", and "To Kill a Mockingbird" to be replaced in US classrooms by texts such as "Recommended Levels of Insulation," "Invasive Plant Inventory," and "How to Turn Critical Thinkers in to Welfare Recipients"   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 352
    More: Asinine, Catcher in the Rye, Harper Lee, classic book, J.D. Salinger, National Governors Association, curriculum, standards-based education reform, critical thinking  
•       •       •

9347 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Dec 2012 at 5:43 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



352 Comments   (+0 »)
   
View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Last | Show all
 
2012-12-07 10:26:06 PM
Good. I've always said there's enough shiat to write about in the real world that we don't need fiction.

Fiction=1980's sitcoms. They wrap their their agenda in a nice little bow,and spit out some moral lesson.

And don't get me started on the books that use character trait descriptive adjectives.
 
2012-12-07 10:32:54 PM

dontbreakthebend: Oh, and check out The Sun Also Rises. It's the best love story ever written about a man who's dick was blown off during battle. I think people miss that part.


It took a long time to get it in our class. But like I said, we were an all-girls school, and so didn't think as much about dicks as boys our age.* That was the same poor teacher who, trying to get us to realize Long Island was meant to be a phallic symbol, had to ask us to think about why Fitzgerald so specifically described the geography of the island, with West Egg and East Egg. Several times.

It must've been awkward for him.


*CSS: I taught at a kid's summer camp at our brother school. The camp used a freshman Chemistry classroom, so one of the first tasks before camp started was painting over all the obscene graffiti on the desks. We painted over hundreds of dicks in this one tiny classroom. As someone who hadn't shared a classroom with boys since puberty, it was totally mystifying. I mean, you don't see many girls out there drawing vulvas over and over again, except for Georgia O'Keefe.
 
2012-12-07 10:39:17 PM
Usually the Torygraph tries to avoid such idiotic tabloid crap. They didn't even pretend to offer a source.
 
2012-12-07 10:43:55 PM

muck4doo: Kevin72: I truly loved Catcher in the Rye. But that was 41 years ago. Since FARK is so widely criticizing Hemingway, I will accept criticism of CITR, but only if it was from someone who read CITR in high school. If you read it at college age, duh no wonder you hated it.

That said, the real stinkers are The Crucible and the Great Gatsby.

Also, To Kill a Mockingbird is the greatest and should be read.

I'd suggest The Tin Drum, but that might cause people in other circles to get their panties in a bunch.


Severed fingers? Nude male modeling? Deaths and stepsons marrying a relative or whatever? It's the most convoluted plot summary I've ever read. Good luck with getting the teachers on board, only a rare high school kid would stand it.
 
2012-12-07 10:44:18 PM
Ah, I see that this is the derp dujour for the day. yes I saw this crap on Facebook. First, it was proposed by the Bush NCLB program. Second it is not required but is a suggestion. The only problem I see with it is that this sort of thing should be in civics or some sort of Economics studies not in english.

But the derptards are throwing anything at the wall these days.
 
2012-12-07 10:46:06 PM
don't schools have enough trouble getting kids to read and understand "classic" fiction like catcher in the rye in the first place? trying to get them to willingly read technical educational manuals will be like pulling teeth. if they pushed that crap on me in high school i would have dropped out.
 
2012-12-07 10:47:19 PM

shortymac: FlyingLizardOfDoom: Catcher in the Rye was a stupid book.

Agreed, it's a whiny rich kid with problems book.


A whiny rich kid who apparently feels to need to argue with a hooker and her pimp over $5 vs $10 for an hour of nonsex.
 
2012-12-07 11:15:54 PM

dennysgod: I graduated HS in the mid 90's and I was never required to read these books, matter of fact I don't remember any required reading in HS, but perhaps I missed those because I was taking AP Physics and Earth Science classes.


There are also AP lit & history classes.

/I don't think an AP class can be legitimately named "earth sciences"
//maybe AP geology
 
2012-12-07 11:16:46 PM

Kevin72: muck4doo: Kevin72: I truly loved Catcher in the Rye. But that was 41 years ago. Since FARK is so widely criticizing Hemingway, I will accept criticism of CITR, but only if it was from someone who read CITR in high school. If you read it at college age, duh no wonder you hated it.

That said, the real stinkers are The Crucible and the Great Gatsby.

Also, To Kill a Mockingbird is the greatest and should be read.

I'd suggest The Tin Drum, but that might cause people in other circles to get their panties in a bunch.

Severed fingers? Nude male modeling? Deaths and stepsons marrying a relative or whatever? It's the most convoluted plot summary I've ever read. Good luck with getting the teachers on board, only a rare high school kid would stand it.


Like I said, it would get panties in a bunch.

/Realistically, it's college material.
 
2012-12-07 11:20:18 PM
Technical manual = nonfiction

But

Nonfiction != technical manual

I am glad all you critical thinkers picked up on that.
 
2012-12-07 11:25:26 PM

Ishidan: Well, it seems I've triggered a real dogpiling on James F. Campbell.
Fun as it is, I think I'll go get dinner now.

I'll be sure to ask the employed people that I meet while doing so--like the cook, the waiter, the bartender, and the guy driving the reefer truck bringing in the supplies--how they got their jobs.

I'll bet not a single one will say "They were impressed by my knowledge of classical American literature".


When I grow up I want to be a waiter / bartender / reefer truck driver

/great benefits & retirement plans in these lucrative careers
 
2012-12-07 11:30:18 PM

my alt's alt's alt: i read catcher in the rye in my early 20s and i despised it so much that i stapled it to a tree in the front yard and let the elements slowly eat it away.


Oh god that made me piddle my panties
 
2012-12-07 11:36:52 PM
Welcome to the fruits of centralized educational systems run by bureaucrats who apply a one-size-fits-all approach.

If you need to send your kid to a trade school thats cool, but I'm not letting you destroy my kids liberal arts education to do it, which is why my kid is going to continue reading Shakespeare and Hemingway.
 
2012-12-07 11:43:12 PM

James F. Campbell: Ishidan: more stupidity

Let me explain it to you simply and briefly: close reading. The practice and mastery of close reading allows you to detect manipulation. Focusing on the words, their meanings, their connotations. Why these words? What is really being said? That's a skill developed in literature classes, and it's part and parcel of critical thinking -- a skill that can undermine an authoritarian attempt at manipulation or control.

There's a reason newly-minted authoritarian states execute academics first instead of scientists, engineers, or ... whatever you are.


Yes. They don't execute engineers because they're valuable productive members of society while the academics are whiny tossers.

And no English teacher ever taught me close reading, I had to learn that on my own.

/BA in philosophy
//then had to get a real education in community college so I could get a job
///bitter yes
 
2012-12-07 11:45:53 PM

InitialCommentGuy: Wait... You mean that history classes may be forced to require primary source reading?

That science courses will teach actual science with citations, studies, and charts rather than just bulling your way through with 'and here are diagrams'?

Lit courses that include popular criticism, texts from the time regarding works, historical information?

Yes. Yes. A million times yes!


I learned more from the copy of Cosmos dad bought me than I did in all science classes up to grade 11.

So, this.
 
2012-12-07 11:48:08 PM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: James F. Campbell: Ishidan: more stupidity

Let me explain it to you simply and briefly: close reading. The practice and mastery of close reading allows you to detect manipulation. Focusing on the words, their meanings, their connotations. Why these words? What is really being said? That's a skill developed in literature classes, and it's part and parcel of critical thinking -- a skill that can undermine an authoritarian attempt at manipulation or control.

There's a reason newly-minted authoritarian states execute academics first instead of scientists, engineers, or ... whatever you are.

Yes. They don't execute engineers because they're valuable productive members of society while the academics are whiny tossers.

And no English teacher ever taught me close reading, I had to learn that on my own.

/BA in philosophy
//then had to get a real education in community college so I could get a job
///bitter yes


Nailed it. Congrats.
 
2012-12-07 11:52:15 PM

iaazathot: The only problem I see with it is that this sort of thing should be in civics or some sort of Economics studies not in english.


Guess what? It is. The recommendation of 70% nonfiction is for the entire curriculum, with the intent being that courses outside of English would asked to increase the amount of reading they require. English class would still largely teach literature. Stuff like Fredrick Douglass's autobiography would sneak into english class as non-fiction too, but they're teaching that one already. That's what we're talking about here, the hysteric crap about kids reading cookbooks is just that. It should be ignored.
 
2012-12-07 11:58:49 PM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: James F. Campbell: Ishidan: more stupidity

Let me explain it to you simply and briefly: close reading. The practice and mastery of close reading allows you to detect manipulation. Focusing on the words, their meanings, their connotations. Why these words? What is really being said? That's a skill developed in literature classes, and it's part and parcel of critical thinking -- a skill that can undermine an authoritarian attempt at manipulation or control.

There's a reason newly-minted authoritarian states execute academics first instead of scientists, engineers, or ... whatever you are.

Yes. They don't execute engineers because they're valuable productive members of society while the academics are whiny tossers.

And no English teacher ever taught me close reading, I had to learn that on my own.

/BA in philosophy
//then had to get a real education in community college so I could get a job
///bitter yes


Perhaps you simply failed to look hard enough for a job that fit your skills.

/"real" job, "real" man, "real" fan, "real" music; anyone who feels the need to put "real" in front of something is a small petulant person
 
2012-12-08 12:05:30 AM
I see nothing wrong with the concept. It would be even better if they used books to learn skills since they won't always have a teacher and will have to learn on their own. I think 70% is high though. I think 40-50% is more appropriate.

As to why we under-perform educationally, here are my thoughts:

- We have poor math education. We teach kids early short cuts with shoddy logic so they fail to build the appropriate foundations for more difficult math. We also spend more time teaching procedure rather than understanding of math concepts.

- We have poor logic education over all, and that encompasses math, science, and the informational writing skills needed for both. Kids have to write science papers in school if they're going to get good at this. They also have to be able to read papers and learn from them.

- We teach scientific method all wrong. A hypothesis is supposed to be an informed guess -- but we teach kids to make an uninformed guess. They don't even know what an informed guess is. They aren't given the results of other times this experiment was run, or given texts to read that might allow them to infer the outcome of the experiment. If they aren't doing this, their science miseducation is perhaps more damaging to science than ignorance.

- Kids need to learn not just how to do research, but how to discern a credible source from a questionable one. This is an area in which a large percentage of adults are deficient.

- We waste lots of precious class time teaching kids history-based fairy tales, many of which were introduced as a form of propaganda during the Red Scare. The children are being fed negative information -- information that leaves them more ignorant than if they'd never heard it. And then we go on to teach a slightly less bs version of history in high school, and then again with even less bs in college. That's a lot of time we're wasting.
 
2012-12-08 12:07:22 AM

Animatronik: Welcome to the fruits of centralized educational systems run by bureaucrats who apply a one-size-fits-all approach.

If you need to send your kid to a trade school thats cool, but I'm not letting you destroy my kids liberal arts education to do it, which is why my kid is going to continue reading Shakespeare and Hemingway.


Here's an idea - get him a library card.
 
2012-12-08 12:14:41 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: James F. Campbell: Ishidan: more stupidity

Let me explain it to you simply and briefly: close reading. The practice and mastery of close reading allows you to detect manipulation. Focusing on the words, their meanings, their connotations. Why these words? What is really being said? That's a skill developed in literature classes, and it's part and parcel of critical thinking -- a skill that can undermine an authoritarian attempt at manipulation or control.

There's a reason newly-minted authoritarian states execute academics first instead of scientists, engineers, or ... whatever you are.

Yes. They don't execute engineers because they're valuable productive members of society while the academics are whiny tossers.

And no English teacher ever taught me close reading, I had to learn that on my own.

/BA in philosophy
//then had to get a real education in community college so I could get a job
///bitter yes

Perhaps you simply failed to look hard enough for a job that fit your skills.

/"real" job, "real" man, "real" fan, "real" music; anyone who feels the need to put "real" in front of something is a small petulant person


Actually, you are right. I could easily have found a good high-paying job with a BA in philosophy. But the education turned me into a smelly hippie who didn't want to soil himself with a career in e.g. investment banking or sell-side analysis. Also academic institutions don't teach you how to look for a job - they figure your well-roundedness is enough.
 
2012-12-08 12:16:58 AM
Workers, dammit. We need more workers!

Not employees ... workers. Workers are replaceable parts. That whole employee thing is just too ... participatory.

/workers
 
2012-12-08 12:49:59 AM
Thank god, Catcher in the Rye was just awful. I have never hated a character as much as I hated Holden Caulfield. It's like he was designed for the reader to despise him, and yet we're still forced to read an entire book about the bastard.
 
2012-12-08 01:32:59 AM

muck4doo: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: James F. Campbell: Ishidan: more stupidity

Let me explain it to you simply and briefly: close reading. The practice and mastery of close reading allows you to detect manipulation. Focusing on the words, their meanings, their connotations. Why these words? What is really being said? That's a skill developed in literature classes, and it's part and parcel of critical thinking -- a skill that can undermine an authoritarian attempt at manipulation or control.

There's a reason newly-minted authoritarian states execute academics first instead of scientists, engineers, or ... whatever you are.

Yes. They don't execute engineers because they're valuable productive members of society while the academics are whiny tossers.

And no English teacher ever taught me close reading, I had to learn that on my own.

/BA in philosophy
//then had to get a real education in community college so I could get a job
///bitter yes

Nailed it. Congrats.


Seconded.
/BA in Communications
//ditto second slashie
 
2012-12-08 01:43:01 AM

dennysgod: I graduated HS in the mid 90's and I was never required to read these books, matter of fact I don't remember any required reading in HS, but perhaps I missed those because I was taking AP Physics and Earth Science classes.


But if somebody told you to read them ON TOP OF taking those AP courses, do you think you could have?

Just getting around to arguing with the guy upthread who said that my claim that, given a limited amount of time and resources, you can't do both well, but you could do both poorly was a false dichotomy.

Of course, being an AP student, you were above average: perhaps you could, but the "normals" could not.
 
2012-12-08 01:59:22 AM

dontbreakthebend:
High school English teacher here,

Oh, and check out The Sun Also Rises. It's the best love story ever written about a man who'sse dick was blown off during battle. I think people miss that part.


I don't believe that here on Fark, I managed to go to dinner, come back, and still nobody else had zapped you on that.
 
2012-12-08 02:39:36 AM

cptjeff: ProfessorOhki: Ishidan: Well, it seems I've triggered a real dogpiling on James F. Campbell.
Fun as it is, I think I'll go get dinner now.

I'll be sure to ask the employed people that I meet while doing so--like the cook, the waiter, the bartender, and the guy driving the reefer truck bringing in the supplies--how they got their jobs.

I'll bet not a single one will say "They were impressed by my knowledge of classical American literature".

Not taking that bet. There's some weird bars out there:
[web-images.chacha.com image 600x400]

/hot

I MUST KNOW WHERE THIS IS.


I believe this is it: Link But I just Google'd "library bar" images.
 
2012-12-08 05:22:51 AM

Ishidan: Oh, and check out The Sun Also Rises. It's the best love story ever written about a man who'sse dick was blown off during battle. I think people miss that part.


I know. I knew it as soon as I submitted it, but my TF settings don't preview comments. However, I can assure you while I Fark when I'm drunk, I only teach sober.
 
2012-12-08 06:44:21 AM

Summercat: ....wat.

Theyre finally getting rid of catcher i he wry? Nice

Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

/keep shakespear


See this? Our childrens is learning.
 
2012-12-08 07:00:35 AM

I_C_Weener: I say a new petition to the White House is in order.
 
Replace this new book list with Ender's Game, and The Hobbit, and The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.


Add "Fight Club", and "M383C Linear Shaped Charge Demolition, Vol I and II" to that list.

As long as we're trying to shape our future, we may as well try to prevent obvious future problems. Right? The biggest threat to humanity is that - much like a yeast culture - humans won't stop breeding until they poison their environment and die off. So there, I've done my part.
 
2012-12-08 09:32:58 AM

doyner: FTFA: "A new school curriculum which will affect 46 out of 50 states will make it compulsory for at least 70 per cent of books studied to be non-fiction, in an effort to ready pupils for the workplace. "
And here is precicely the underlying problem in the US. We have changed our education system into a worker-bee development system.

ed·u·ca·tion/ˌɛdʒʊˈkeɪʃən/ Show Spelled [ej-oo-key-shuhn] noun
1. the act or process of imparting or acquiring general knowledge, developing the powers of reasoning and judgment, and generally of preparing oneself or others intellectually for mature life.

Education has nothing to do with being able to start working at Home Depot or Microsoft. Call me whackadoodle, but this is an indicator of our march from citizens to serfs.


And that's the point.
 
2012-12-08 02:51:39 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: dickfreckle: Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.

Um, what do you think the education systems of half the world have been doing for the last 20 years? Those folks may not even know who Shakespeare is, but they did a dang good job gutting our manufacturing and technology industries. 

Perhaps we need to fight back in the same manner to catch up. Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit


You know that coworker you have who spouts off the latest derp from Fox News, but can't put together a coherent sentence otherwise? Yeah, that'd be the coworker who should have failed their English classes.

Literature teaches you empathy, how to think things through, a bit of logic and rhetoric, and helps you define who and what you are. Without those skills, you have idiots who say it's the fault of abuse victims for making 'bad choices', that poor people can't be poor because they have refrigerators, and other such gems. It's great for making robots, but the point of schools (even if they don't function that way in reality) is to create functional adults, not robots.

/If someone wants to argue they need to revamp how literature is taught, I'm 100% behind that, we expect students to intuit far too much about texts. But cutting arts, literature, and other liberal arts is a bad, bad plan.
 
HBK
2012-12-08 03:07:09 PM

PsiChick: You know that coworker you have who spouts off the latest derp from Fox News, but can't put together a coherent sentence otherwise? Yeah, that'd be the coworker who should have failed their English classes.

Literature teaches you empathy, how to think things through, a bit of logic and rhetoric, and helps you define who and what you are. Without those skills, you have idiots who say it's the fault of abuse victims for making 'bad choices', that poor people can't be poor because they have refrigerators, and other such gems. It's great for making robots, but the point of schools (even if they don't function that way in reality) is to create functional adults, not robots.

/If someone wants to argue they need to revamp how literature is taught, I'm 100% behind that, we expect students to intuit far too much about texts. But cutting arts, literature, and other liberal arts is a bad, bad plan.


Empathy is an important thing for a barista to have. Then she/he understands why I'm pissed that it takes five minutes to pour a goddamned coffee.
 
2012-12-08 03:22:25 PM

HBK: Empathy is an important thing for a barista to have. Then she/he understands why I'm pissed that it takes five minutes to pour a goddamned coffee.


Lyme disease patients being turned into living pawns because doctors want to have a pissing match over whether or not the disease is 'real', rape and abuse victims being blamed for the attacks, an entire political party trying to screw over poor people...

Yup. Studying English will magically turn you into a barista and thus a subhuman.
 
2012-12-08 03:36:11 PM

Giblet: Summercat: ....wat.

Theyre finally getting rid of catcher i he wry? Nice

Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

/keep shakespear

See this? Our childrens is learning.


Ah, sorry. Was on my phone, on the bus. Terrible typing skills on the phone, alas.

//Highschool was nearly 10 years ago for me
 
2012-12-08 09:12:52 PM
The guy had to keep checking the subway route because it was his responsibility and none of the other kids would. Can you imagine such self suffucuient kidsnow?
 
2012-12-08 11:00:52 PM

Nehllah: I'm enjoying that the people who are upset keep mentioning critical thinking.

So, you're telling me you learned critical thinking from reading fiction, but you took the article at face value, maybe only read the headline, and definitely didn't factcheck anything? Does that sound about right?


Outstanding. Farking burn.
 
2012-12-08 11:53:18 PM

Weaver95: "In the end, education has to be about more than simply ensuring that kids can get a job. Isn't it supposed to be about making well-rounded citizens?"

NOTHING in our culture encourages creativity. we despise artists, fear hackers and sideline anyone who steps outside the accepted norms. in some cases, that view is changing...but its moving very slowly, if at all.


True dat. Check the assholiness that pops up on this forum whenever a "student loan" thread pops up, and all the sh*t that art/music/anyone who's not a STEM major gets every single time. Here in this country a sizable chunk of the talentless moron contingent would rather have people "do art" in their "spare time", somehow creating all the things they see around them but are too stupid to notice while the artists shouldn't devote their lives to it in a way which would make them a living.
 
HBK
2012-12-09 01:21:58 AM

PsiChick: HBK: Empathy is an important thing for a barista to have. Then she/he understands why I'm pissed that it takes five minutes to pour a goddamned coffee.

Lyme disease patients being turned into living pawns because doctors want to have a pissing match over whether or not the disease is 'real', rape and abuse victims being blamed for the attacks, an entire political party trying to screw over poor people...

Yup. Studying English will magically turn you into a barista and thus a subhuman.


Well sure, high school-level morality and reasoning is important. My post was more geared to the worthlessness of liberal arts as a college major, and its resulting (lack of) job opportunities.

I was making light. I think kids should read books in high school, maybe more books will = less reality TV, that would be an improvement for humanity.
 
2012-12-09 01:36:16 AM

HBK: Well sure, high school-level morality and reasoning is important. My post was more geared to the worthlessness of liberal arts as a college major, and its resulting (lack of) job opportunities.

I was making light. I think kids should read books in high school, maybe more books will = less reality TV, that would be an improvement for humanity.


I'm a liberal arts major. Since virtually no one's going into the field of teaching, pretty much thanks to your viewpoint, I should be totally fine for getting a job, especially when I get my PhD. So...not sure if I should be annoyed or thank you. :p
 
HBK
2012-12-09 01:41:32 AM

PsiChick: HBK: Well sure, high school-level morality and reasoning is important. My post was more geared to the worthlessness of liberal arts as a college major, and its resulting (lack of) job opportunities.

I was making light. I think kids should read books in high school, maybe more books will = less reality TV, that would be an improvement for humanity.

I'm a liberal arts major. Since virtually no one's going into the field of teaching, pretty much thanks to your viewpoint, I should be totally fine for getting a job, especially when I get my PhD. So...not sure if I should be annoyed or thank you. :p


My roommate was a bright guy. English major, 3.8 GPA at a top university. He graduated six years ago and delivers pizzas now.
 
HBK
2012-12-09 01:46:52 AM
(College roomate, not current).

Also, I had another buddy with an MA in English. He taught English and Creative Writing at a large state university, with only a masters. He lost his job.

He mowed lawns for two years before he finally got work teaching high school.

It's possible you'll find a job teaching, and hey, more power to you. But you're not special and it's a shiatty job market. Pretty much the ONLY jobs out there right now for Liberal Arts are teaching, and there are a shiat load people who majored in "Liberal Arts," because math and science are hard, competing for those jobs.
 
2012-12-09 02:30:09 AM

PsiChick: HBK: Well sure, high school-level morality and reasoning is important. My post was more geared to the worthlessness of liberal arts as a college major, and its resulting (lack of) job opportunities.

I was making light. I think kids should read books in high school, maybe more books will = less reality TV, that would be an improvement for humanity.

I'm a liberal arts major. Since virtually no one's going into the field of teaching, pretty much thanks to your viewpoint, I should be totally fine for getting a job, especially when I get my PhD. So...not sure if I should be annoyed or thank you. :p


Haha are you serious?
 
HBK
2012-12-09 02:43:18 AM

redmid17: PsiChick: HBK: Well sure, high school-level morality and reasoning is important. My post was more geared to the worthlessness of liberal arts as a college major, and its resulting (lack of) job opportunities.

I was making light. I think kids should read books in high school, maybe more books will = less reality TV, that would be an improvement for humanity.

I'm a liberal arts major. Since virtually no one's going into the field of teaching, pretty much thanks to your viewpoint, I should be totally fine for getting a job, especially when I get my PhD. So...not sure if I should be annoyed or thank you. :p

Haha are you serious?


Shhh.... she's enjoying her naivete.
 
2012-12-09 01:58:45 PM

HBK: (College roomate, not current).

Also, I had another buddy with an MA in English. He taught English and Creative Writing at a large state university, with only a masters. He lost his job.

He mowed lawns for two years before he finally got work teaching high school.

It's possible you'll find a job teaching, and hey, more power to you. But you're not special and it's a shiatty job market. Pretty much the ONLY jobs out there right now for Liberal Arts are teaching, and there are a shiat load people who majored in "Liberal Arts," because math and science are hard, competing for those jobs.


First: According to actual teachers, there is a decline in people going into teaching. Your friends? Had a totally normal experience for anyone in any field. So no, you aren't special either, and you don't have One Truth, you have a ridiculous amount of talking points.

And since you think liberal arts are easy, I'm sure you'll be able to explain to me how the psychological understanding of intuition could lead to a true artificial intelligence and what that would imply in the typical science-fiction view of sentience in artificial intelligence. I theorized on this in my teen years, so surely you can handle it.


HBK: Shhh.... she's enjoying her naivete.


Or, you know, people who actually know what they're talking about explained this to me. One of the two.
 
2012-12-09 03:57:56 PM

PsiChick: Grand_Moff_Joseph: dickfreckle: Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.

Um, what do you think the education systems of half the world have been doing for the last 20 years? Those folks may not even know who Shakespeare is, but they did a dang good job gutting our manufacturing and technology industries. 

Perhaps we need to fight back in the same manner to catch up. Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit

You know that coworker you have who spouts off the latest derp from Fox News, but can't put together a coherent sentence otherwise? Yeah, that'd be the coworker who should have failed their English classes.

Literature teaches you empathy, how to think things through, a bit of logic and rhetoric, and helps you define who and what you are. Without those skills, you have idiots who say it's the fault of abuse victims for making 'bad choices', that poor people can't be poor because they have refrigerators, and other such gems. It's great for making robots, but the point of schools (even if they don't function that way in reality) is to create functional adults, not robots.

/If someone wants to argue they need to revamp how literature is taught, I'm 100% behind that, we expect students to intuit far too much about texts. But cutting arts, literature, and other liberal arts is a bad, bad plan.


I wish you would come talk to our school board...
 
2012-12-09 05:08:16 PM

PsiChick: HBK: (College roomate, not current).

Also, I had another buddy with an MA in English. He taught English and Creative Writing at a large state university, with only a masters. He lost his job.

He mowed lawns for two years before he finally got work teaching high school.

It's possible you'll find a job teaching, and hey, more power to you. But you're not special and it's a shiatty job market. Pretty much the ONLY jobs out there right now for Liberal Arts are teaching, and there are a shiat load people who majored in "Liberal Arts," because math and science are hard, competing for those jobs.

First: According to actual teachers, there is a decline in people going into teaching. Your friends? Had a totally normal experience for anyone in any field. So no, you aren't special either, and you don't have One Truth, you have a ridiculous amount of talking points.

And since you think liberal arts are easy, I'm sure you'll be able to explain to me how the psychological understanding of intuition could lead to a true artificial intelligence and what that would imply in the typical science-fiction view of sentience in artificial intelligence. I theorized on this in my teen years, so surely you can handle it.


HBK: Shhh.... she's enjoying her naivete.

Or, you know, people who actually know what they're talking about explained this to me. One of the two.


I'll give you a hint: The person who knows what they're talking about is not you:

Link

What are the current trends in the teaching profession?

Response:
There were a projected 3.7 million full-time-equivalent (FTE) elementary and secondary school teachers in fall 2011. This number has risen 7 percent since 2001. The 2011 projected number of FTE teachers includes 3.3 million public school teachers and 0.4 million private school teachers.


"Figure H. Actual and middle alternative projected numbers for elementary and secondary teachers: Selected years, 1992-2017"

Link

nces.ed.gov
 
2012-12-09 05:29:22 PM

redmid17: PsiChick: HBK:

Or, you know, people who actually know what they're talking about explained this to me. One of the two.

I'll give you a hint: The person who knows what they're talking about is not you:

Link

What are the current trends in the teaching profession?

Response:
There were a projected 3.7 million full-time-equivalent (FTE) elementary and secondary school teachers in fall 2011. This number has risen 7 percent since 2001. The 2011 projected number of FTE teachers includes 3.3 million public school teachers and 0.4 million private school teachers.

"Figure H. Actual and middle alternative projected numbers for elementary and secondary teachers: Selected years, 1992-2017"

Link

[nces.ed.gov image 250x122]


1: Teaching for college != teaching in public school.

2: There are big numbers. You did not address whether the big numbers correlated to job growth in the sector. So let's look at another factor that would indicate the answer to that question: What's the unemployment rate?

"Of the 3,380,300 full-time and part-time public school teachers who were teaching during the 2007-08 school year, 84.5 percent remained at the same school ("stayers"), 7.6 percent moved to a different school ("movers"), and 8.0 percent left the profession ("leavers") during the following year. Among the 487,300 private school teachers who were teaching during the 2007-08 school year, 79.2 percent were stayers, 4.9 percent were movers, and 15.9 percent were leavers."

To translate: There's a lot of teachers numerically, but only 8 percent who can't stay in their jobs. Now, let's break down why:

"About 5.3 percent of public school teacher leavers left teaching in 2008-09 because their contract was not renewed, compared to 13.0 percent of private school teacher leavers."

So in other words, 18.3 percent of 8 percent of the sum total of teachers actually left because they had no other choice. That's hardly a field without any jobs whatsoever, that's a job that has a healthy growth rate.

In 2008, during a recession.

/Yeah, I have no worries at all.
//And you still need to think twice before badmouthing a profession to someone in it. I mean, really, am I badmouthing your job?
 
2012-12-09 05:35:15 PM

PsiChick: /Yeah, I have no worries at all.
//And you still need to think twice before badmouthing a profession to someone in it. I mean, really, am I badmouthing your job?


You're not a teacher. You're in college. You didn't specify university level teaching. The entire thread has been about elementary and secondary educations majors.

I'm also pretty sure you don't know what I do for a living. My point is that your assertion that people are not going into teaching is demonstrably false. I don't really give a shiat if the growth rate of the job market is good or bad. I also never badmouthed the teaching profession, so check your liberal arts reading comprehension level.
 
2012-12-09 05:58:53 PM

redmid17: PsiChick: /Yeah, I have no worries at all.
//And you still need to think twice before badmouthing a profession to someone in it. I mean, really, am I badmouthing your job?

You're not a teacher. You're in college. You didn't specify university level teaching. The entire thread has been about elementary and secondary educations majors.

I'm also pretty sure you don't know what I do for a living. My point is that your assertion that people are not going into teaching is demonstrably false. I don't really give a shiat if the growth rate of the job market is good or bad. I also never badmouthed the teaching profession, so check your liberal arts reading comprehension level.


Ah, apparently I wasn't clear enough. Adjusting for market growth, the relative number of people going into teaching is, from what I know, declining. The field reflects, if not directly that, certainly at least enough of a healthy growth market so I still would not need to be worried. Fair 'nuff about the college thing, though, I should have implied that.

And you seem to be missing the point. Once I said I was a liberal arts major, you...continued badmouthing the liberal arts majors by claiming people went into them 'because math and science is hard'. Again, I invite you to join in the discussion on the implications on artificial intelligence in science fiction implied by the psychological implications of intuition. It only involves a basic understanding of psych, so it shouldn't be hard or anything, right?
 
Displayed 50 of 352 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Last | Show all

View Voting Results: Smartest and Funniest


This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »






Report