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(Telegraph)   "Catcher in the Rye", and "To Kill a Mockingbird" to be replaced in US classrooms by texts such as "Recommended Levels of Insulation," "Invasive Plant Inventory," and "How to Turn Critical Thinkers in to Welfare Recipients"   (telegraph.co.uk) divider line 352
    More: Asinine, Catcher in the Rye, Harper Lee, classic book, J.D. Salinger, National Governors Association, curriculum, standards-based education reform, critical thinking  
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9347 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Dec 2012 at 5:43 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-07 01:40:04 PM
Please tell me this is satire. They think this will help make kids prepared for college?
 
2012-12-07 01:48:00 PM

naughtyrev: Please tell me this is satire. They think this will help make kids prepared for college?


Not satire. See US Dept of Education's "Race to the Top."
 
2012-12-07 01:49:54 PM
Wow, subby wasn't being satirical in the headline.
 
2012-12-07 01:57:59 PM
Supporters of the directive argue that it will help pupils to develop the ability to write concisely and factually, which will be more useful in the workplace than a knowledge of Shakespeare.

Bullsh*t. It's not the knowledge of Shakespeare that makes the kid employable or ready for college. It's his or her exposure, however cursory, to a wide range of subjects. Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.
 
2012-12-07 02:02:36 PM
Catcher in the Rye was a stupid book.
 
2012-12-07 02:05:06 PM

dickfreckle: Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.


Um, what do you think the education systems of half the world have been doing for the last 20 years? Those folks may not even know who Shakespeare is, but they did a dang good job gutting our manufacturing and technology industries. 

Perhaps we need to fight back in the same manner to catch up. Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit
 
2012-12-07 02:08:50 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: dickfreckle: Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.

Um, what do you think the education systems of half the world have been doing for the last 20 years? Those folks may not even know who Shakespeare is, but they did a dang good job gutting our manufacturing and technology industries. 

Perhaps we need to fight back in the same manner to catch up. Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit


Our manufacturing and tech industries weren't gutted because we were teaching Shakespeare and other countries weren't.
 
2012-12-07 02:25:40 PM
"In the end, education has to be about more than simply ensuring that kids can get a job. Isn't it supposed to be about making well-rounded citizens?"

HAHA!! Yeah, sure, and prisons are for "rehabilitation."
 
2012-12-07 02:32:36 PM

naughtyrev: They think this will help make kids prepared for college?


Even if true, I fail to see how that would help.
 
2012-12-07 02:35:30 PM
I hate people.
 
2012-12-07 02:36:06 PM

FlyingLizardOfDoom: Catcher in the Rye was a stupid book.


Grand_Moff_Joseph: Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book


Matthew 7:6
 
2012-12-07 02:37:06 PM
All you people bagging on the Catcher in the Rye are a bunch of PHONIES!
 
2012-12-07 02:42:41 PM

Dogberry: naughtyrev: Please tell me this is satire. They think this will help make kids prepared for college?

Not satire. See US Dept of Education's "Race to the Top."


That's where the most heat escapes, after all.

/we need to double down on insulation
 
2012-12-07 02:48:39 PM

Shostie: All you people bagging on the Catcher in the Rye are a bunch of PHONIES!


And this is where they live.

i3.ytimg.com
 
2012-12-07 02:48:51 PM

dickfreckle: Supporters of the directive argue that it will help pupils to develop the ability to write concisely and factually, which will be more useful in the workplace than a knowledge of Shakespeare.

Bullsh*t. It's not the knowledge of Shakespeare that makes the kid employable or ready for college. It's his or her exposure, however cursory, to a wide range of subjects. Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.


But, soft! what heat through yonder window escapes?
It is R-8, to protect Juliet from the sun.
 
2012-12-07 02:48:56 PM
FTFA: "A new school curriculum which will affect 46 out of 50 states will make it compulsory for at least 70 per cent of books studied to be non-fiction, in an effort to ready pupils for the workplace. "
And here is precicely the underlying problem in the US. We have changed our education system into a worker-bee development system.

ed·u·ca·tion/ˌɛdʒʊˈkeɪʃən/ Show Spelled [ej-oo-key-shuhn] noun
1. the act or process of imparting or acquiring general knowledge, developing the powers of reasoning and judgment, and generally of preparing oneself or others intellectually for mature life.

Education has nothing to do with being able to start working at Home Depot or Microsoft. Call me whackadoodle, but this is an indicator of our march from citizens to serfs.
 
2012-12-07 02:50:14 PM
But I will add that there are far better books than Catcher in the Rye....god that was awful.
 
2012-12-07 02:58:53 PM
Plus, there are no Cliff Notes for "Recommended Levels of Insulation". Joking aside, I think this is a travesty. Love literature or hate it, I cannot see the logic in removing it from the curriculum in favor of teaching kids about insulation so they are "prepared for the working world." We have to inspire kids to succeed. Not insult them by forcing mediocrity upon them.
 
2012-12-07 03:00:32 PM

doyner: But I will add that there are far better books than Catcher in the Rye....god that was awful.


At the time Catcher was assigned reading in HS I was digging Hesse's Demian. Emil Sinclair is a far more interesting study IMHO.
 
2012-12-07 03:07:30 PM
I thought this was satire as well. What the hell are people thinking? How could this possibly help kids in any way at all?
 
2012-12-07 03:07:44 PM

Dogberry: naughtyrev: Please tell me this is satire. They think this will help make kids prepared for college?

Not satire. See US Dept of Education's "Race to the Top."


I went to DOE's RTTT website and searched for "Recommended Insulation Levels." Nothing relevant. Searched for "Invasive Plant Inventory." A hit on learning about ecological concepts in 5th grade which is entirely reasonable. If you have some more evidence, please share. This is on Drudge Report too so I'm halfway assuming its Bullshiat to begin with.
 
2012-12-07 03:10:07 PM

Klippoklondike: I thought this was satire as well. What the hell are people thinking? How could this possibly help kids in any way at all?


It'll help me with my blown out insulation.
 
2012-12-07 03:17:25 PM
"Neville Shunt's latest West End Success: It All Happened on the 11.20 from Hainault to Redhill via Horsham and Reigate, calling at Carshalton Beeches, Malmesbury, Tooting Bec and Croydon West is currently appearing at the Limp Theatre, Piccadilly. What Shunt is doing in this, as in his earlier nine plays, is to express the human condition in terms of British Rail."
 
2012-12-07 03:18:42 PM

Somacandra: Dogberry: naughtyrev: Please tell me this is satire. They think this will help make kids prepared for college?

Not satire. See US Dept of Education's "Race to the Top."

I went to DOE's RTTT website and searched for "Recommended Insulation Levels." Nothing relevant. Searched for "Invasive Plant Inventory." A hit on learning about ecological concepts in 5th grade which is entirely reasonable. If you have some more evidence, please share. This is on Drudge Report too so I'm halfway assuming its Bullshiat to begin with.


There are articles by the Washington Post and the NY Times about it as well. So, looks real to me.

Link
 
2012-12-07 03:20:46 PM
Atticus wept.
 
2012-12-07 03:21:13 PM
"In the end, education has to be about more than simply ensuring that kids can get a job. Isn't it supposed to be about making well-rounded citizens?"

NOTHING in our culture encourages creativity. we despise artists, fear hackers and sideline anyone who steps outside the accepted norms. in some cases, that view is changing...but its moving very slowly, if at all.
 
2012-12-07 03:24:21 PM

Somacandra: Dogberry: naughtyrev: Please tell me this is satire. They think this will help make kids prepared for college?

Not satire. See US Dept of Education's "Race to the Top."

I went to DOE's RTTT website and searched for "Recommended Insulation Levels." Nothing relevant. Searched for "Invasive Plant Inventory." A hit on learning about ecological concepts in 5th grade which is entirely reasonable. If you have some more evidence, please share. This is on Drudge Report too so I'm halfway assuming its Bullshiat to begin with.


Would a NYT piece help?
 
2012-12-07 03:26:17 PM
I say a new petition to the White House is in order.
 
Replace this new book list with Ender's Game, and The Hobbit, and The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.
 
2012-12-07 03:27:55 PM
So weird.

Growing up, my parents taught me applicable labor-based skills. How to do basic electronics. How to service a car engine. How to sew. How to build things. How to fix things. And in school I learned literature and science and math and history.

Today my parents would be making me read The Red Badge of Courage at home and at school I'd be learning how to gap a spark plug.
 
2012-12-07 03:52:54 PM

Diogenes: So weird.

Growing up, my parents taught me applicable labor-based skills. How to do basic electronics. How to service a car engine. How to sew. How to build things. How to fix things. And in school I learned literature and science and math and history.

Today my parents would be making me read The Red Badge of Courage at home and at school I'd be learning how to gap a spark plug.


When you put it that way it makes it even stranger, but it's so true.
 
2012-12-07 04:20:32 PM
This is particularly sad. It is imagination that leads to innovation. Innovation leads to efficiency, progress and improvement.
 
2012-12-07 04:24:21 PM

Darth_Lukecash: This is particularly sad. It is imagination that leads to innovation. Innovation leads to efficiency, progress and improvement.


yes, but then innovation threatens wall street and imagination leads one to question faith....so there's that.
 
2012-12-07 04:26:54 PM

Darth_Lukecash: This is particularly sad. It is imagination that leads to innovation. Innovation leads to efficiency, progress and improvement.


Did someone say efficiency and progress?

Efficiency and progress is ours once more
Now that we have the Neutron bomb
It's nice and quick and clean and gets things done
Away with excess enemy
But no less value to property
No sense in war but perfect sense at home:

The sun beams down on a brand new day
No more welfare tax to pay
Unsightly slums gone up in flashing light
Jobless millions whisked away
At last we have more room to play
All systems go to kill the poor tonight
...

Gonna
Kill kill kill kill Kill the poor:Tonight

The perfect GOP anthem...especially since they don't understand snark

Wait...don't tell me they took Dead Kennedys out of the schools, too!
 
2012-12-07 04:42:16 PM
OK, the link is both funny and scary, I grant, but something about this does not pass the smell test. Did The Telegraph get punk'd?

First of all, I checked out the Common Core State Standards web page and could find nothing to support any of these assertions. In fact, many of the other claims on the Telegraph page seem to be explicitly contradicted by the Core Standards page. For example, they are certainly not proposing to eliminate or reduce the study of Shakespeare. The site specifically states, "In English‐language arts, the Standards require certain critical content for all students, including: classic myths and stories from around the world, America's Founding Documents, foundational American literature, and Shakespeare."

Second, the Telegraph cites no sources for its various claims about the new curriculum. Where exactly did they get these specifics? From The Onion? I did find a recommended reading list (.pdf) from one school system employing the Core Standards, and it does include "California Invasive Plant Council. Invasive Plant Inventory," but that system recommends it for middle schools, so it is certainly not a substitute for Catcher in the Rye. Check out the list for yourself. Personally, I found it to be a completely appropriate one for 6th to 8th graders, and fail to sense the problems suggested by the Telegraph article.
 
2012-12-07 04:48:47 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit


You won't need that suit around me. I despise that book. It's not the worst thing I've ever read, but it's clearly the one with the most unearned importance attached to it. On the Road is in that league as well.
 
2012-12-07 05:45:54 PM
What u expect... Mericans can't read!
 
2012-12-07 05:49:36 PM
This was a horrible breakdown of this issue.

The real problem is apparently administrators' reading comprehension. The Core Curriculum's reading recommendations for informational texts is meant to apply when looking at the whole curriculum, not just English classrooms. In other words, you're supposed to be reading some essays and biographies and such in classes like Geography, Civics, History, and even Math and the Sciences. And yeah, a little in English, but it's only myopic administrators who think that reading only happens in one classroom that are saying they'll have to drastically cut fiction to meet the nonfiction standards.
 
2012-12-07 05:49:59 PM

dickfreckle: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit

You won't need that suit around me. I despise that book. It's not the worst thing I've ever read, but it's clearly the one with the most unearned importance attached to it. On the Road is in that league as well.


Walden Two, by B.F. Skinner. Easily the worst book I've ever read, but then I've never tried Twilight.
 
2012-12-07 05:50:11 PM

dickfreckle: Supporters of the directive argue that it will help pupils to develop the ability to write concisely and factually, which will be more useful in the workplace than a knowledge of Shakespeare.

Bullsh*t. It's not the knowledge of Shakespeare that makes the kid employable or ready for college. It's his or her exposure, however cursory, to a wide range of subjects. Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.


No, actually, it's the ability to write (and even think) concisely and factually. Exposure to a wide range of topics that the little dolt forgets two hours later is useless.
 
2012-12-07 05:52:10 PM

Weaver95: Darth_Lukecash: This is particularly sad. It is imagination that leads to innovation. Innovation leads to efficiency, progress and improvement.

yes, but then innovation threatens wall street and imagination leads one to question faith....so there's that.


This couldn't be more wrong. 2000-2007 was the golden age of Wall Street innovation.
 
2012-12-07 05:52:11 PM
upload.wikimedia.org

I double-checked that this wasn't from The Onion. Nope, it seems legit.

FTFA: Supporters of the directive argue that it will help pupils to develop the ability to write concisely and factually, which will be more useful in the workplace than a knowledge of Shakespeare.

I have less of a problem with this point, in relation to Shakespeare specifically (let the Drama kids read him). However, Catcher in the Rye and To Kill A Mockingbird are NOT Shakespeare. And I would NOT agree that replacing them with Invasive Plant Inventory is a good idea.

/I AM SO GLAD THAT I FINISHED PUBLIC SCHOOL BEFORE THE WORLD WENT INSANE
 
2012-12-07 05:52:44 PM
They should replace it with Scrotie McBoogerballs.
 
2012-12-07 05:52:58 PM
....wat.

Theyre finally getting rid of catcher i he wry? Nice

Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

/keep shakespear
 
2012-12-07 05:54:05 PM
Hitchhiker's guide to the galaxy.
 
2012-12-07 05:54:17 PM
Will now be replaced with "Catcher in the Pumpernickel".
 
2012-12-07 05:54:23 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: /puts on flame retardant suit


I believe they prefer to be called suits for "special needs."

/How long until The Little Engine That Could" is considered 8th grade level reading?
 
2012-12-07 05:55:05 PM
i think less bullshiat in school and more fact is a good thing
 
2012-12-07 05:55:21 PM
Not all kids needs to read Catcher in the Rye and the like. Have some gifted classes, or an after school book club for the kids who care, where the books are available and it'll be fine.
 
2012-12-07 05:56:53 PM
Just take out all the shiatty Hemingway and I won't complain.
 
2012-12-07 05:56:55 PM

dickfreckle: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit

You won't need that suit around me. I despise that book. It's not the worst thing I've ever read, but it's clearly the one with the most unearned importance attached to it. On the Road is in that league as well.


The only other book I've disliked as much as Catcher in the Rye was Girl of the Limberlost, which few outside of a 4th grade class in Indiana have read. Grapes of Wrath was pretty close though.
 
2012-12-07 05:57:21 PM

FlyingLizardOfDoom: Catcher in the Rye was a stupid book.


Agreed. Should be replaced by this

upload.wikimedia.org

Most popular book in my high school
 
2012-12-07 05:57:35 PM
So it goes.
 
2012-12-07 05:57:55 PM
You're doing it wrong.


Very, very wrong.

This is bad, and they should feel bad.
 
2012-12-07 05:57:56 PM

Somacandra: Dogberry: naughtyrev: Please tell me this is satire. They think this will help make kids prepared for college?

Not satire. See US Dept of Education's "Race to the Top."

I went to DOE's RTTT website and searched for "Recommended Insulation Levels." Nothing relevant. Searched for "Invasive Plant Inventory." A hit on learning about ecological concepts in 5th grade which is entirely reasonable. If you have some more evidence, please share. This is on Drudge Report too so I'm halfway assuming its Bullshiat to begin with.


Whenever I see a "news of America" sort of article like this on a UK site, I tend to assume it's horseshiat. Since the small army of US teachers and librarians I know on Twitter haven't gone apeshiat about it, I tend to assume it's even horseshiattier.
 
2012-12-07 05:58:06 PM

TheHumanCannonball: Not all kids needs to read Catcher in the Rye and the like. Have some gifted classes, or an after school book club for the kids who care, where the books are available and it'll be fine.


The only people who deserve to read Catcher in the Rye are sitting on death row and don't need an 8th amendment violation of their civil rights.
 
2012-12-07 05:58:19 PM
To title poorly?
 
2012-12-07 05:59:36 PM

FlyingLizardOfDoom: Catcher in the Rye was a stupid book.


No, U
 
2012-12-07 06:00:47 PM

Weaver95: "In the end, education has to be about more than simply ensuring that kids can get a job. Isn't it supposed to be about making well-rounded citizens?"

NOTHING in our culture encourages creativity. we despise artists, fear hackers and sideline anyone who steps outside the accepted norms. in some cases, that view is changing...but its moving very slowly, if at all.


Sadly true. At the same time we claim to embrace imagination and creativity and all that, anything genuinely imaginative and creative is viewed with deepest suspicion. Anyone who got harassed as a child for reading "The Hobbit" knows that all too well.

"Catcher in the Rye" needs to go, although I don't think technical manuals are a good replacement.
 
2012-12-07 06:00:55 PM
No, no, no, no, no. Professional writing is important. (There's a reason I'm majoring in it.) Knowing how to read and write informational texts is a good thing, and will serve students very well. But such writing is not necessarily easy, and designing an effective professional document takes thought and creativity. Why in the world would schools want to cut down on the practice of critical thinking and the arts? It's not like students currently lack nonfiction textbooks...

/headdesk
 
2012-12-07 06:01:01 PM
I don't see a problem with this. Most people are actually fairly dumb. There is no reason for them to read anything but technical manuals and for that matter to write anything. It just makes for painful reading, that's all. We should separate kids young and early around 8th grade and basically have a 3 tier system: 3 year trade school, 5 year technical school and 4 year college prep school. That's how it was when I grew up in Europe and worked really well. 80% percent of the population has the following goals in life: work 8 hours a day for a decent wage, eat, fark, raise another generation of low IQ children.
 
2012-12-07 06:01:32 PM
Well, to be fair, reading Catcher in the Rye is like listening to the know it all anarchist goth kid we all knew in high school who liked to tell everyone that no one really knew what pain was except for him.

The only books more mind numbingly painful to read are anything written by Hemmingway, and Atlas Shrugged.
 
2012-12-07 06:02:12 PM
media.247sports.com

/oblig
 
2012-12-07 06:02:37 PM
Public school for the masses.

The top 2% or ruling class will still be there to take care of you.
 
2012-12-07 06:03:25 PM
What if.parents would actually take part in their child's development and give them these books to read themselves, leaving school as the basic part of their education?

/Crazy, I know.
 
2012-12-07 06:04:22 PM
tomasso

There's some examples from the actual Common Core standards here.

It's still got some classic classroom fiction through high school, like Canterbury Tales, Jane Eyre, The Great Gatsby, etc. I would've like reading the History and Math and Science nonfiction, and even the English nonfiction looks good. It's got Walden, but also things like "Politics and the English Language" by Orwell.
 
2012-12-07 06:07:29 PM
Oh, and the recommendations explicitly list To Kill a Mockingbird as an exemplar text for grades 9-10. The only surprising thing there is that my school did it in 7th grade, so I never thought of it as a text you'd assign right after finishing up the Odyssey.
 
2012-12-07 06:07:58 PM
Just what we need, more morons.
 
2012-12-07 06:09:14 PM
Idiotic article.

A couple of books were removed from the literature lists (a decision I don't agree with), and a couple of articles were added to a list of reading in "Informational texts: science, mathematics, and technical subjects".
This does NOT mean that the first were replaced by the second.
 
2012-12-07 06:10:10 PM

Dr.Zom: Just what we need, more morons.


The only thing that matters is that little citizens grow up to be productive, content taxpayers who don't think too hard about the world around them.
 
2012-12-07 06:11:11 PM
Well thank goodness we've finally resolved a minor controversy from several decades ago.
 
2012-12-07 06:12:39 PM

James F. Campbell: Dr.Zom: Just what we need, more morons.

The only thing that matters is that little citizens grow up to be productive, content taxpayers who don't think too hard about the world around them.


obey citizen
 
2012-12-07 06:13:23 PM

Rufus Lee King: Cather in Rye was s stoopit book!

Salinger was no can write poo poo head!

I see that FARK is getting the jump on this unfortunate trend.


Frankly I think it says a lot more about a person if they actually liked or could relate to Catcher in the Rye than it did about the vast majority of people who didn't like it.
 
2012-12-07 06:13:34 PM
Thanks, U.S. You keep giving me great reasons to homeschool my kids.

/ I know, it's off the derp-end, but ffs I don't want my kids in these places, it was bad enough for me
 
2012-12-07 06:14:52 PM

willyfreddy: I have less of a problem with this point, in relation to Shakespeare specifically (let the Drama kids read him). However, Catcher in the Rye and To Kill A Mockingbird are NOT Shakespeare. And I would NOT agree that replacing them with Invasive Plant Inventory is a good idea.


Except Shakespeare still features prominently, and no one who writes these guidelines is suggesting replacing To Kill a Mockingbird (still explicitly recommended in grades 9-10 English classrooms) with the Invasive Plant Inventory (recommended for grades 6-8 SCIENCE classrooms).
 
2012-12-07 06:15:58 PM
Ah, the Common Core State Standards.

A private group with the goal of a unified national curriculum

From their FAQ

Q: What is the role of the federal government in standards implementation?

A: The federal government has had no role in the development of the common core state standards and will not have a role in their implementation.

So, stop blaming the Feds, unless you really want them to set a national curriculum (which might not be too bad, unless you are worried someone would implement creationism as something to be taught).
 
2012-12-07 06:17:46 PM

BronyMedic: Well, to be fair, reading Catcher in the Rye is like listening to the know it all anarchist goth kid we all knew in high school who liked to tell everyone that no one really knew what pain was except for him.

The only books more mind numbingly painful to read are anything written by Hemmingway, and Atlas Shrugged.


If you can't spell him correctly, I won't take any of your comments about him seriously, for the record.
 
2012-12-07 06:18:48 PM
There are better books than Catcher in the Rye for high school kids to read. There are some really amazing nonfiction books out there and schools spend way too much time reading novels.

Being able to read and understand government reports is an important skill that high schools should cover. I'd rather they use Congressional Research Service reports than EPA ones but it is a start.
 
2012-12-07 06:20:49 PM

BronyMedic:

The only books more mind numbingly painful to read are anything written by Hemmingway, and Atlas Shrugged.


Seriously? You can't spell Hemingway correctly and you confuse a book title with the person who wrote it? Have you actually read a book this year?
 
2012-12-07 06:21:03 PM

Klippoklondike: Somacandra: Dogberry: naughtyrev: Please tell me this is satire. They think this will help make kids prepared for college?

Not satire. See US Dept of Education's "Race to the Top."

I went to DOE's RTTT website and searched for "Recommended Insulation Levels." Nothing relevant. Searched for "Invasive Plant Inventory." A hit on learning about ecological concepts in 5th grade which is entirely reasonable. If you have some more evidence, please share. This is on Drudge Report too so I'm halfway assuming its Bullshiat to begin with.

There are articles by the Washington Post and the NY Times about it as well. So, looks real to me.

Link


And the author of that piece had to issue a correction because they initially wrote it claiming that the standards applied just to English, when they really apply to reading across all classes.

This is about more reading overall, not less fiction in English class. You would add in the extra nonfiction in other classes, we're not talking about dry technical documents- we're talking a book about A Brief History of Time assigned in Physics, we're talking about Bringing Down the House (the book about the MIT blackjack team) in math. We're talking John Adams in Civics. Good, well written, interesting books that just happen to be about things that actually happened.
 
2012-12-07 06:22:06 PM

James F. Campbell: taxpayers


And lest anyone think, $deity forbid, that I am a teabag derpster, add, "and consumers" to that. My grief is that education should be the process, as one woman in the article says, of creating well-rounded citizens, but corporations and corrupt politicians don't have any interest in creating citizens who think too much; they'd rather treat education as a profit-making enterprise. They've created an entire generation of debt-laden workers by feeding them the lie that they need a college degree, and now they're working on their children.
 
2012-12-07 06:23:14 PM

FlyingLizardOfDoom: Catcher in the Rye was a stupid book.


Agreed, it's a whiny rich kid with problems book.
 
2012-12-07 06:23:17 PM
Relax everyone. I call shenanigans. This will never happen.
 
2012-12-07 06:23:19 PM
Does Bible study count as fiction or non-fiction?

(article is badly trying to create a controversy. Then again I never read anything in math and science classes other than the textbooks. Maybe some books involving historical perspective would have been nice but they would probably be too dumbed down)
 
2012-12-07 06:23:25 PM

Summercat: Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.


I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.
 
2012-12-07 06:24:48 PM
I didn't read much past the first sentence, "American literature classics are to be replaced by insulation manuals and plant inventories in US classrooms by 2014," because this is obviously bullshiat.
 
2012-12-07 06:25:18 PM

Klippoklondike: There are articles by the Washington Post and the NY Times about it as well. So, looks real to me.

Link


Dogberry: Would a NYT piece help?


No, because the NYT article actually debunks most of the Telegraph/Drudge fearmongering. Did you even read it, or just link it assuming it supported your assertion?
 
2012-12-07 06:26:12 PM

ommitay: Relax everyone. I call shenanigans. This will never happen.


It is shenanigans.

They are not replacing these books, they are adding them.

It's purely fodder for the "OMG Libs are ruining this country" crowd, which, oddly, overlaps quite a bit with the Homeschooler crowd.
 
2012-12-07 06:26:35 PM

Somacandra: Dogberry: naughtyrev: Please tell me this is satire. They think this will help make kids prepared for college?

Not satire. See US Dept of Education's "Race to the Top."

I went to DOE's RTTT website and searched for "Recommended Insulation Levels." Nothing relevant. Searched for "Invasive Plant Inventory." A hit on learning about ecological concepts in 5th grade which is entirely reasonable. If you have some more evidence, please share. This is on Drudge Report too so I'm halfway assuming its Bullshiat to begin with.


Yep. It's yet another anti-science screed most likely from creationists and GW deniers to scare parents into sending their kids to "private" schools, where they'll learn all about art and culture...but only from one small book with a cross on it.
 
2012-12-07 06:26:45 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: Summercat: Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.


Try his travel pieces and think.
 
2012-12-07 06:27:08 PM
I love pissing off the FARK Pedant squad. You have an extraneous m added into someone's name, and rather than it being a mistake, you're a illiterate who hasn't read a book, or has no right to criticize literary mind anesthesia.

www.pedanticsociety.com
 
2012-12-07 06:27:23 PM
You can spend more time teaching practical physics (insulation and building codes) and natural biology (plant inventories) or you can spend your time reading FICTION.

I'm part of the generation that read both. I'll be damned if I could tell you, ten years later, what good it did me: when writing corporate reports, flowery vocabulary was not an asset, writing like a machine was.
 
2012-12-07 06:27:38 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: tomasso

There's some examples from the actual Common Core standards here.

It's still got some classic classroom fiction through high school, like Canterbury Tales, Jane Eyre, The Great Gatsby, etc. I would've like reading the History and Math and Science nonfiction, and even the English nonfiction looks good. It's got Walden, but also things like "Politics and the English Language" by Orwell.


This looks like a fantastic curriculum that would be the basis of an excellent education from K-12. Supplement with textbooks and all subjects are covered.
 
2012-12-07 06:27:48 PM

Summercat: ....wat.

Theyre finally getting rid of catcher i he wry? Nice

Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

The Old Man and the Sea

is directly responsible for The Young Boy and the C.
 
2012-12-07 06:28:52 PM

Indubitably: Skirl Hutsenreiter: Summercat: Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.

Try his travel pieces and think.


"How can I make history come to light for my students? Is it the text? Or is it me? Or both?"

Whenever I hear about a book that didn't work in a class, I hear about a teacher more...
 
2012-12-07 06:29:01 PM

Snarfangel: Summercat: ....wat.

Theyre finally getting rid of catcher i he wry? Nice

Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

The Old Man and the Sea is directly responsible for The Young Boy and the C.


See. Books are a gateway drug! One moment you're reading Hemingway, the next moment you're snorting crushed up hydros in the school bathroom. 2 hours later, you're sucking dick outside of the local walmart to get your next fix.
 
2012-12-07 06:29:20 PM
I expected Catcher to be replaced by Less Than Zero by now. But I guess things have only regressed in the world of US Education.
 
2012-12-07 06:29:56 PM

BronyMedic: I love pissing off the FARK Pedant squad. You have an extraneous m added into someone's name, and rather than it being a mistake, you're a illiterate who hasn't read a book, or has no right to criticize literary mind anesthesia.

[www.pedanticsociety.com image 850x244]


Did you see my previous post about overreacting?

You should.
 
2012-12-07 06:30:25 PM

BronyMedic: I love pissing off the FARK Pedant squad. You have an extraneous m added into someone's name, and rather than it being a mistake, you're a illiterate who hasn't read a book, or has no right to criticize literary mind anesthesia.

[www.pedanticsociety.com image 850x244]


There should be a colon after the top line, and a period at the end.
 
2012-12-07 06:31:05 PM

Indubitably: Did you see my previous post about overreacting?

You should.


Aren't you assuming that I'm "ovrreacting", and not further trolling people who seem to think a single grammatical error matters in a non-academic conversation on the internet?

Tisk tisk. Didn't your mother teach you what happens when you assume?
 
2012-12-07 06:31:33 PM
This makes me so sad. There is so much more to language than cut-and-dry informational texts and rote grammar lessons. A "knowledge of Shakespeare" may not apply directly to the workplace but creative thinking skills do. Also, literature is a wonderful way to connect with our culture and history. All this talk over the past couple decades of getting "back to basics" in education ignores the fact that historically, being well-rounded in the arts WAS considered a basic education.
 
2012-12-07 06:32:03 PM
American Schools: preparing your children for the best jobs of 1974 since 1980.
 
2012-12-07 06:33:31 PM

BronyMedic: Indubitably: Did you see my previous post about overreacting?

You should.

Aren't you assuming that I'm "ovrreacting", and not further trolling people who seem to think a single grammatical error matters in a non-academic conversation on the internet?

Tisk tisk. Didn't your mother teach you what happens when you assume?


Yeah, and she also taught me how to spell "tsk" too.

*)
 
2012-12-07 06:33:45 PM

Ishidan: You can spend more time teaching practical physics (insulation and building codes) and natural biology (plant inventories) or you can spend your time reading FICTION.

I'm part of the generation that read both. I'll be damned if I could tell you, ten years later, what good it did me: when writing corporate reports, flowery vocabulary was not an asset, writing like a machine was.


It helps to develop the part of your brain that deals with creativity, which in turn helps you in problem solving and critical thinking. Only reading instruction manual type writing won't develop that part of brain.
 
2012-12-07 06:33:54 PM
I don't have a problem with this. People should read fiction on their own for their own enjoyment. That is what it is intended for anyway.

Also, Catcher In The Rye is a stupid book. I can't believe anyone likes that drivel at all. I am not trolling, I genuinely don't see how you can like that worthless crap.

To Kill a Mockingbird on the other hand is pure genius. Loved the movie too.
 
2012-12-07 06:34:49 PM

dj_bigbird: Wow, subby wasn't being satirical in the headline.


Sadly, I was surprised too.
I would have preferred brilliant satire to the truth.

Good job subby in showing restraint!
 
2012-12-07 06:36:04 PM
They should move university level Critical Thinking to the High school level, but make it a 4 year requirement like Math. You should not be able to graduate high school without having memorized all the logical fallacies and a basic understanding of statistics and budgeting for consumers.
 
2012-12-07 06:36:30 PM
"In the end, education has to be about more than simply ensuring that kids can get a job. Isn't it supposed to be about making well-rounded citizens?"

I'm pretty sure you can be a homeless and hungry well rounded citizen.
 
2012-12-07 06:37:31 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: This was a horrible breakdown of this issue.

The real problem is apparently administrators' reading comprehension. The Core Curriculum's reading recommendations for informational texts is meant to apply when looking at the whole curriculum, not just English classrooms. In other words, you're supposed to be reading some essays and biographies and such in classes like Geography, Civics, History, and even Math and the Sciences. And yeah, a little in English, but it's only myopic administrators who think that reading only happens in one classroom that are saying they'll have to drastically cut fiction to meet the nonfiction standards.


I had a feeling it had to be something like this, and I'm not at all surprised the Telegraph got it wrong.
 
2012-12-07 06:37:51 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: dickfreckle: Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.

Um, what do you think the education systems of half the world have been doing for the last 20 years? Those folks may not even know who Shakespeare is, but they did a dang good job gutting our manufacturing and technology industries. 

Perhaps we need to fight back in the same manner to catch up. Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit


This, this whole thing, this.
 
2012-12-07 06:38:49 PM
You think teens are rebellious little farks now. Wait until they figure out that schools are trying to mold them into complacent little worker drones.

See, this is what I hate about government departments these days. Why does it have to be either/or? Liberal arts, or trade school stuff? Why can't kids be taught both?
 
2012-12-07 06:39:54 PM
Also, Subby, your added title to the list of required reading. Kindly get a clue. I've yet to see an employer that cared whether I've read "the classics". I've yet to see a welfare recipient that would benefit by being more "cultured". Indeed, to get out of welfare, most recipients I've seen would benefit by a precisely targeted education, concentrating only on job-related knowledge and skills. I can see a contractor wanting workers to know about insulation types, or a rancher wanting the fieldhands to know about invasive species, for example...but how does being able to quote classical works of fiction benefit the working class?

More math. More physics. More technical writing. More encyclopedic knowledge. Less fiction. That's how you prepare students that are fit for that band between "College educated professional" and "dumb grunt laborer". There's time enough for advanced writing and other such aristocratic skills in college.
 
2012-12-07 06:40:02 PM
Fiction and entertainment literature should be placed in a separate but equal library facility from strictly informational books. These groups of students have naturally varying interests, and quite simply can't handle interaction with the more confident, level headed achievers who go to church and play His blessed game of Football.
 
2012-12-07 06:40:47 PM
I think we need to completely change the education system in this nation. I say grades k-6 is reading, writing, math, social studies and science. Standards are assigned to each grade and each student must hit those standards. If a kid can not read, write and do math at their grade level, it's summer school. Fail that, repeat. Now, if it's only one of those three, like say Math, then required math summer school and advancement to the next grade with a required math remedial.

In Jr. High, we give assessment tests. Based on those tests we find out where the talents of the students lay and put them on a path that best harvests their talents. Those who's talents focus in the areas of medicine, law or engineering are put on a college path. Those with talents for acting or singing are put into programs to cultivate those skills. Mechanically inclined people who enjoy working with their hands can be allowed to choose a wide variety of paths from engineering to becoming an auto mechanic. Those with talents for becoming liberal arts can be shown how to make coffee and work the Starbucks drive thru and bureaucrats and HR people can be taken out and shot.

In the later teen years, those not in college bound paths, like the doctors and engineers, can go into apprenticeships to become better at their trades so when they reach the age of 18 they now have a marketable skill and can be more employable than high school grads are today who spend four years in high school and lack the skills to get employed at McDonald's. Now, I'm not saying that teenagers should drop completely out of high school and go instantly into the work force. A modified schedule of half work days and half school is a better solution. Or probably first year of high school mostly school and a few hours a week of work and each year less school and more work. I know some will read this and instantly hate it, but honestly, learning a job skill in high school that you can use afterwards to bring in an income is going to do students a thousand times better than expecting them to read three books by Charles Dickens over four years and treating every student like they're on the path to college when really, they all aren't and quite frankly, shouldn't be.

And as for college, I went, I graduated, and to be honest, the people that I've met who make the most money aren't really the college grads, they're the ones who went into sales and/or became business owners. Teachers in high school told me if I wanted to be a success I needed to go to college. I see college grads who spent four or more years in college to get a job paying less than $50k a year and are deep in debt with student loans, and I know others who never went to college, work eight weeks a year and bring in $150k/year. I'm learning from the people who only work eight weeks a year and make $150/year.
 
2012-12-07 06:41:32 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: Summercat: Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.


Hemingway wrote novels like he talked. Well, he was a raging cokehead who drank like a fish, so you can understand why they get so rambling and annoying in a hurry.

/When I want that, I go party with the art crowd in town.
 
2012-12-07 06:41:39 PM
Nothing fosters a love of great literature like being forced to read Romeo and Juliet out loud in 8th grade English class (except maybe getting your head caught in a lawnmower).
 
2012-12-07 06:45:35 PM

Ishidan: I'm part of the generation that read both. I'll be damned if I could tell you, ten years later, what good it did me: when writing corporate reports, flowery vocabulary was not an asset, writing like a machine was.


Reasoning and empathy are both "assets" fostered by literature, and both have served me well not just as a writer, but as a general construction labourer. I get promoted on job sites because of emotional intelligence, learned in part from from examples in literature. I also score the occasional story/screenplay sale, thanks to literature.

I'm certain the same applies to you, as I am certain that you are more than just a corporate report writer.
 
2012-12-07 06:45:41 PM

FlyingLizardOfDoom: Catcher in the Rye was a stupid book.

 
2012-12-07 06:46:08 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: Summercat: Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.


I loved Hemmingway as a teen. Still do, though I don't read much of him often these days, I've got so much other stuff piled up and waiting. Hemmingway isn't a crappy writer just because his style isn't to your taste, and the fact that you don't like him doesn't mean that everybody in your age group hates him.

I enjoyed The Old Man and the Sea the first time I read it, middle school IIRC, and still enjoy rereading it every couple of years today. And I can't say I can remember hearing many people in classes where it was read complain, at least any more than the standard, "I hate reading" group.

On the other hand, I loathe Dickens. I have a friend who loves everything he's ever written. I love Victor Hugo, my brother couldn't make it more than 50 pages into The Hunchback of Notre Dame. All three of those authors are literary greats, and should be broadly read. Will you like every writing style? No. Is it worth being exposed to them? Hell yes. And if you don't like Hemmingway's style, you should be thankful your teacher didn't assign you For Whom the Bell Tolls. The Old Man and the Sea is at least short, though the high school you might have enjoyed the sex in For Whom the Bell Tolls.
 
2012-12-07 06:46:12 PM
I think that more high schools should offer academic classes AND vocational classes at the same time.

I credit my high school, where I took both honors and AP courses along with a vocational major of IT with getting me to where I'm at today.
 
2012-12-07 06:47:18 PM

Old enough to know better: You think teens are rebellious little farks now. Wait until they figure out that schools are trying to mold them into complacent little worker drones.

See, this is what I hate about government departments these days. Why does it have to be either/or? Liberal arts, or trade school stuff? Why can't kids be taught both?


Only so many hours in the day, man. Do either one all day and create either little artists or little laborers, or split your time and create people who are perfectly useless because they can only half-think or half-work.
 
2012-12-07 06:47:34 PM

Klippoklondike: Somacandra: Dogberry: naughtyrev: Please tell me this is satire. They think this will help make kids prepared for college?

Not satire. See US Dept of Education's "Race to the Top."

I went to DOE's RTTT website and searched for "Recommended Insulation Levels." Nothing relevant. Searched for "Invasive Plant Inventory." A hit on learning about ecological concepts in 5th grade which is entirely reasonable. If you have some more evidence, please share. This is on Drudge Report too so I'm halfway assuming its Bullshiat to begin with.

There are articles by the Washington Post and the NY Times about it as well. So, looks real to me.

Link


Except the words "insulation" and "plant" don't appear anywhere in the article.

Did you know the word "gullible" isn't in the dictionary?
 
2012-12-07 06:47:35 PM

redmid17: dickfreckle: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit

You won't need that suit around me. I despise that book. It's not the worst thing I've ever read, but it's clearly the one with the most unearned importance attached to it. On the Road is in that league as well.

The only other book I've disliked as much as Catcher in the Rye was Girl of the Limberlost, which few outside of a 4th grade class in Indiana have read. Grapes of Wrath was pretty close though.



I enjoyed Grapes of Wrath a lot more when I read every other chapter. Perhaps the chapters describing the countryside were useful to people of that era. I have seen plenty of movies set in the American west and I know what it looks like, thank you very much.
 
2012-12-07 06:47:51 PM
trippdogg: Nothing fosters a love of great literature like being forced to read Romeo and Juliet out loud in 8th grade English class (except maybe getting your head caught in a lawnmower).

As far as Shakespere goes MacBeth, Julius Caesar, and Henry VI are far more entertaining than Romeo and Juliet
 
2012-12-07 06:47:57 PM

trippdogg: Nothing fosters a love of great literature like being forced to read Romeo and Juliet out loud in 8th grade English class (except maybe getting your head caught in a lawnmower).


The point of that was to make you learn how to speak coherently to groups, not love the book. Reading and reciting are different skills.
 
2012-12-07 06:48:19 PM
Good. The only only people who get anything out of those books are future art students who end up doing pretty much nothing with their lives anyway. Glad to see kids will be at least learning something useful soon.
 
2012-12-07 06:49:12 PM

Indubitably: BronyMedic: Indubitably: Did you see my previous post about overreacting?

You should.

Aren't you assuming that I'm "ovrreacting", and not further trolling people who seem to think a single grammatical error matters in a non-academic conversation on the internet?

Tisk tisk. Didn't your mother teach you what happens when you assume?

Yeah, and she also taught me how to spell "tsk" too.

*)


You "spell" tsk?
 
2012-12-07 06:50:31 PM

Ishidan: but how does being able to quote classical works of fiction benefit the working class?


The quoting part isn't the point... it's the understanding p[art that's important. Classics are the canon of culture, and they will help the working class understand who they are, what they contribute, and how they ought to be treated. Remove that influence, and you've got IngSoc.
 
2012-12-07 06:51:18 PM

beakerxf: redmid17: dickfreckle: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit

You won't need that suit around me. I despise that book. It's not the worst thing I've ever read, but it's clearly the one with the most unearned importance attached to it. On the Road is in that league as well.

The only other book I've disliked as much as Catcher in the Rye was Girl of the Limberlost, which few outside of a 4th grade class in Indiana have read. Grapes of Wrath was pretty close though.


I enjoyed Grapes of Wrath a lot more when I read every other chapter. Perhaps the chapters describing the countryside were useful to people of that era. I have seen plenty of movies set in the American west and I know what it looks like, thank you very much.


When you're paid by the word, you tend to load your novels with chapters of descriptions.
 
2012-12-07 06:51:42 PM
dickfreckle: Bullsh*t. It's not the knowledge of Shakespeare that makes the kid employable or ready for college. It's his or her exposure, however cursory, to a wide range of subjects. Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.

The ability to write a tech manual is not the way to fix things?

A cursory exposure to a wide range of subjects might help you play Trivial Pursuit.
 
2012-12-07 06:51:48 PM

I should be in the kitchen: This makes me so sad. There is so much more to language than cut-and-dry informational texts and rote grammar lessons. A "knowledge of Shakespeare" may not apply directly to the workplace but creative thinking skills do. Also, literature is a wonderful way to connect with our culture and history. All this talk over the past couple decades of getting "back to basics" in education ignores the fact that historically, being well-rounded in the arts WAS considered a basic education.


Don't be sad.

The informational texts are in addition too existing texts.

This article is pure 100% bullshiat regarding voluntary participation in a private group's idea (that does have many states opting in) of what makes a core education, and it had lots of good books as well as these informational texts. This is the full list of exemplars, and you'll see To Kill A Mocking Bird is listed on Page 10 for the 9-10th graders

From the list someone else linked the list for grades 6-8 Link. It's a good list.

Grade 6-8 Suggested Reading Material Common Core State Standards for English Language Arts and Literacy in
History/Social Studies, Science and Technical Subjects

Stories
Alcott, Louisa May. Little Women
Twain, Mark. The Adventures of Tom Sawyer
L'Engle, Madeleine. A Wrinkle in Time
Cooper, Susan. The Dark Is Rising
Yep, Laurence. Dragonwings
Taylor, Mildred D. Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry
Hamilton, Virginia. "The People Could Fly."
Paterson, Katherine. The Tale of the Mandarin Ducks
Cisneros, Sandra. "Eleven."
Sutcliff, Rosemary. Black Ships Before Troy: The Story of the Iliad

Drama
Fletcher, Louise. Sorry, Wrong Number
Goodrich, Frances and Albert Hackett. The Diary of Anne Frank: A Play

Poetry
Longfellow, Henry Wadsworth. "Paul Revere's Ride."
Whitman, Walt. "O Captain! My Captain!"
Carroll, Lewis. "Jabberwocky."
Navajo tradition. "Twelfth Song of Thunder."
Dickinson, Emily. "The Railway Train."
Yeats, William Butler. "The Song of Wandering Aengus."
Frost, Robert. "The Road Not Taken."
Sandburg, Carl. "Chicago."
Hughes, Langston. "I, Too, Sing America."
Neruda, Pablo. "The Book of Questions."
Soto, Gary. "Oranges."
Giovanni, Nikki. "A Poem for My Librarian, Mrs. Long."

Informational Texts: English Language Arts
Adams, John. "Letter on Thomas Jefferson."
Douglass, Frederick. Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass an American Slave, Written by Himself
Churchill, Winston. "Blood, Toil, Tears and Sweat: Address to Parliament on May 13th, 1940."
Petry, Ann. Harriet Tubman: Conductor on the Underground Railroad
Steinbeck, John. Travels with Charley: In Search of America

Informational Texts: History/Social Studies

United States. Preamble and First Amendment to the United States Constitution. (1787, 1791)
Lord, Walter. A Night to Remember
Isaacson, Phillip. A Short Walk through the Pyramids and through the World of Art
Murphy, Jim. The Great Fire
Greenberg, Jan, and Sandra Jordan. Vincent Van Gogh: Portrait of an Artist
Partridge, Elizabeth. This Land Was Made for You and Me: The Life and Songs of Woody Guthrie
Monk, Linda R. Words We Live By: Your Annotated Guide to the Constitution
Freedman, Russell. Freedom Walkers: The Story of the Montgomery Bus Boycott

Informational Texts: Science, Mathematics, and Technical Subjects
Macaulay, David. Cathedral: The Story of Its Construction
Mackay, Donald. The Building of Manhattan
Enzensberger, Hans Magnus. The Number Devil: A Mathematical Adventure
Peterson, Ivars and Nancy Henderson. Math Trek: Adventures in the Math Zone
Katz, John. Geeks: How Two Lost Boys Rode the Internet out of Idaho
Petroski, Henry. "The Evolution of the Grocery Bag."
"Geology." U*X*L Encyclopedia of Science
"Space Probe." Astronomy & Space: From the Big Bang to the Big Crunch
"Elementary Particles." New Book of Popular Science
California Invasive Plant Council. Invasive Plant Inventory
 
2012-12-07 06:52:39 PM

funmonger: Reasoning and empathy are both "assets" fostered by literature, and both have served me well not just as a writer, but as a general construction labourer. I get promoted on job sites because of emotional intelligence, learned in part from from examples in literature. I also score the occasional story/screenplay sale, thanks to literature.

I'm certain the same applies to you, as I am certain that you are more than just a corporate report writer.


I dunno, maybe I'm just surrounded by idiots. Wait, let me look. *sticks head out window, realizes he's in Hawaii". Oh wait that's it. Never mind me, I'm in a place where stupidity is prized...
 
2012-12-07 06:53:02 PM
Is it any wonder that the monkey's confused?
He said "Mama, Mama, the presiden'ts a fool.
Why do I have to keep reading these technical manuals?"
And the joint chiefs of staff and the brokers on Wall Street said
"Don't make us laugh, you're a smart kid
Time is linear, memory's a stranger, history is for fools,
Man is a tool in the hands of the Great God Almighty."
And they gave him command
of a nuclear submarine
and sent him back
in search of the Garden of Eden.

/Roger Waters
 
2012-12-07 06:53:47 PM
20 years from now, the curriculum will look like this..


Lesson 1
The answer to question number 1 is A

Lesson 2
The answer to question number 2 is C

Lesson 3
The answer to question number 3 is D

etc, etc, etc,....
 
2012-12-07 06:54:06 PM

Ishidan: Only so many hours in the day, man. Do either one all day and create either little artists or little laborers, or split your time and create people who are perfectly useless because they can only half-think or half-work.


False Dichotomy.
 
2012-12-07 06:54:07 PM

astelmaszek: I don't see a problem with this. Most people are actually fairly dumb. There is no reason for them to read anything but technical manuals and for that matter to write anything. It just makes for painful reading, that's all. We should separate kids young and early around 8th grade and basically have a 3 tier system: 3 year trade school, 5 year technical school and 4 year college prep school. That's how it was when I grew up in Europe and worked really well. 80% percent of the population has the following goals in life: work 8 hours a day for a decent wage, eat, fark, raise another generation of low IQ children.


Let's just do five tiers and call them alpha, beta, gamma, delta and episilon. That way we can just cut directly over to Fordism.
 
2012-12-07 06:55:00 PM

Nick Nostril: "In the end, education has to be about more than simply ensuring that kids can get a job. Isn't it supposed to be about making well-rounded citizens?"

I'm pretty sure you can be a homeless and hungry well rounded citizen.


You can definitely be educated, homeless, hungry, well-rounded, and a citizen.

*sniff-sniff*

Do you want me to explicate what I smell?
 
2012-12-07 06:55:32 PM
What's next? No homework? Oh shiat, wait
 
2012-12-07 06:55:55 PM
"How to Turn Critical Thinkers in to Welfare Recipients"

Why would one want to turn in Critical Thinkers? And why would it be to Welfare Recipients?
 
HBK
2012-12-07 06:56:09 PM
I'm glad they're doing away with Catcher in the Rye. That book was terrible. But keep The Great Gatsby and To Kill a Mockingbird.

/We read the Lord of the Rings trilogy in English Lit, our teacher was awesome.
 
2012-12-07 06:56:12 PM

bugmn99: Good. The only only people who get anything out of those books are future art students who end up doing pretty much nothing with their lives anyway. Glad to see kids will be at least learning something useful soon.


Yeah no.
 
2012-12-07 06:56:54 PM

doyner: FTFA: "A new school curriculum which will affect 46 out of 50 states will make it compulsory for at least 70 per cent of books studied to be non-fiction, in an effort to ready pupils for the workplace. "
And here is precicely the underlying problem in the US. We have changed our education system into a worker-bee development system.

ed·u·ca·tion/ˌɛdʒʊˈkeɪʃən/ Show Spelled [ej-oo-key-shuhn] noun
1. the act or process of imparting or acquiring general knowledge, developing the powers of reasoning and judgment, and generally of preparing oneself or others intellectually for mature life.

Education has nothing to do with being able to start working at Home Depot or Microsoft. Call me whackadoodle, but this is an indicator of our march from citizens to serfs.


Apparently your schooling was light on history.
 
2012-12-07 06:57:16 PM

Gyrfalcon: Indubitably: BronyMedic: Indubitably: Did you see my previous post about overreacting?

You should.

Aren't you assuming that I'm "ovrreacting", and not further trolling people who seem to think a single grammatical error matters in a non-academic conversation on the internet?

Tisk tisk. Didn't your mother teach you what happens when you assume?

Yeah, and she also taught me how to spell "tsk" too.

*)

You "spell" tsk?


Is this a question or a statement?
 
2012-12-07 06:57:33 PM
You trusted an article written on American education from a British web site? Based on an interview with a teach from Arkansas?

HAHahahahahahahAHHAHAHAHAHAAHahahaha
 
2012-12-07 06:57:53 PM
"How to Turn Critical Thinkers in to Welfare Recipients"

Uhh... elect a community organizer president of the united states -- twice? Did I win an internet?
 
2012-12-07 06:57:55 PM
This seems appropriate.

www.iamstaggered.com
 
2012-12-07 06:58:06 PM

tomasso: OK, the link is both funny and scary, I grant, but something about this does not pass the smell test. Did The Telegraph get punk'd?

First of all, I checked out the Common Core State Standards web page and could find nothing to support any of these assertions. In fact, many of the other claims on the Telegraph page seem to be explicitly contradicted by the Core Standards page. For example, they are certainly not proposing to eliminate or reduce the study of Shakespeare. The site specifically states, "In English‐language arts, the Standards require certain critical content for all students, including: classic myths and stories from around the world, America's Founding Documents, foundational American literature, and Shakespeare."


From the CCSSI ELA (English Language Arts) Standards document:

The bad news:
Distribution of Literary and Informational Passages by Grade in the 2009 NAEP Reading Framework

Grade Literary Informational
4 50% 50%
8 45% 55%
12 30% 70%

The "good" news:

Because the ELA classroom must focus
on literature (stories, drama, and poetry) as well as literary nonfiction, a great
deal of informational reading in grades 6-12 must take place in other classes if
the NAEP assessment framework is to be matched instructionally.

So, it seems to say that the 70% non-fiction you read in high school includes what you read in History, Math and Science classes. So maybe it's not as bad as the articles make it sound?
 
2012-12-07 06:58:26 PM

AssAsInAssassin: Is it any wonder that the monkey's confused?
He said "Mama, Mama, the presiden'ts a fool.
Why do I have to keep reading these technical manuals?"
And the joint chiefs of staff and the brokers on Wall Street said
"Don't make us laugh, you're a smart kid
Time is linear, memory's a stranger, history is for fools,
Man is a tool in the hands of the Great God Almighty."
And they gave him command
of a nuclear submarine
and sent him back
in search of the Garden of Eden.

/Roger Waters

To bow

 
2012-12-07 06:58:56 PM

satanorsanta: Skirl Hutsenreiter: tomasso

There's some examples from the actual Common Core standards here.

It's still got some classic classroom fiction through high school, like Canterbury Tales, Jane Eyre, The Great Gatsby, etc. I would've like reading the History and Math and Science nonfiction, and even the English nonfiction looks good. It's got Walden, but also things like "Politics and the English Language" by Orwell.

This looks like a fantastic curriculum that would be the basis of an excellent education from K-12. Supplement with textbooks and all subjects are covered.


I thought some of the stuff in the later years of elementary school through middle school was a little basic, but then I remembered that I was about 3-4 grade levels ahead of my peers in reading during that time in school. Seriously. Ran in the family too- both my sister and I got through he high school lists in those word recognition tests they give you in 2nd grade or so, and they couldn't finish because they didn't bring the higher level lists. Cleaned up on the prizes they had at elementary and middle school for Advanced Reader (anyone else remember that?).

Yet somehow, none of it made me cool. Can't fathom why.
 
2012-12-07 07:00:09 PM

Ray Vaughn: "How to Turn Critical Thinkers in to Welfare Recipients"

Why would one want to turn in Critical Thinkers? And why would it be to Welfare Recipients?


Good catch! Subby, please report to your English teacher for detention.
 
2012-12-07 07:00:11 PM
Literature teaches the mind to articulate thoughts and apprehend the world, which is a science in and of itself. It rehearses the mind in problem solving, emotional intelligence and moral development.

Manuals teach you how to follow, not think.
 
2012-12-07 07:00:19 PM

Mean Daddy: "How to Turn Critical Thinkers in to Welfare Recipients"

Uhh... elect a community organizer president of the united states -- twice? Did I win an internet?



Was George W. Bush a community organizer, too? Wow. I did not know that.
 
2012-12-07 07:01:16 PM

jonjr215: Plus, there are no Cliff Notes for "Recommended Levels of Insulation". Joking aside, I think this is a travesty. Love literature or hate it, I cannot see the logic in removing it from the curriculum in favor of teaching kids about insulation so they are "prepared for the working world." We have to inspire kids to succeed. Not insult them by forcing mediocrity upon them.


But they're removing Catcher in the Rye from the curriculum.
 
2012-12-07 07:02:46 PM
Reading, writing and creativity won't buy you a house and feed your kids. That's what I was told all the time in 1983-84-85.

We were recovering from a recession then, we're trying to get out of one now. Deja vu, y'all.
 
2012-12-07 07:05:54 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: dickfreckle: Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.

Um, what do you think the education systems of half the world have been doing for the last 20 years? Those folks may not even know who Shakespeare is, but they did a dang good job gutting our manufacturing and technology industries. 

Perhaps we need to fight back in the same manner to catch up. Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit


Who cares? Being a well rounded person with a real education involves reading a few stupid books in the course of one's life. If I sat still for Atlas Shrugged, some little snotnose can process Holden Caulfield's cheesy teen angst without suffering any damage, either.
 
2012-12-07 07:08:36 PM
Children learn early, a second language should be introduced when they begin to talk (even Sesame Street does that with Spanish)....imagine if we really thought our children are the future....we would introduce them to complex math when their minds are willing to learn....
School is set up that children get an 8th grade education in 12 years.
 
2012-12-07 07:08:49 PM

SilentStrider: I hate people.


hey, me too
 
2012-12-07 07:11:15 PM

Indubitably: Gyrfalcon: Indubitably: BronyMedic: Indubitably: Did you see my previous post about overreacting?

You should.

Aren't you assuming that I'm "ovrreacting", and not further trolling people who seem to think a single grammatical error matters in a non-academic conversation on the internet?

Tisk tisk. Didn't your mother teach you what happens when you assume?

Yeah, and she also taught me how to spell "tsk" too.

*)

You "spell" tsk?

Is this a question or a statement?


An interrogatory.
 
2012-12-07 07:12:39 PM

Dogberry: Would a NYT piece help?


It helps quite a bit, thank you. Firstly, the author of that piece at least partly agrees with some increased focus on nonfiction, or informational literature, basically because she thinks students write crappy essays. Second, at the bottom:

An earlier version of this article referred incorrectly to the percentage of the high school curriculum that will consist of reading nonfiction titles under the Common Core State Standards. It is 70 percent of the entire 12th grade curriculum, not only English.

That's kind of an important caveat. Pretty much zero percent of math and science and a tiny part of things like history and music and phys ed will be fiction, so that shifts a huge amount to english and other languages.

Plus, I saw the Catcher in the Rye on numerous core curriculum lists, and neither of those bullshiat boring texts. I think the Telegraph article is pure claptrap.
 
2012-12-07 07:12:53 PM

IlGreven: Somacandra: Dogberry: naughtyrev: Please tell me this is satire. They think this will help make kids prepared for college?

Not satire. See US Dept of Education's "Race to the Top."

I went to DOE's RTTT website and searched for "Recommended Insulation Levels." Nothing relevant. Searched for "Invasive Plant Inventory." A hit on learning about ecological concepts in 5th grade which is entirely reasonable. If you have some more evidence, please share. This is on Drudge Report too so I'm halfway assuming its Bullshiat to begin with.

Yep. It's yet another anti-science screed most likely from creationists and GW deniers to scare parents into sending their kids to "private" schools, where they'll learn all about art and culture...but only from one small book with a cross on it.


I decided to actually read some derp textbooks, so I went to ebay and bought a few A Beka textbooks: biology, US government.

/should be interesting
//and most likely infuriating
 
2012-12-07 07:14:26 PM
The more I read about this, the faster my eye twitches.
 
2012-12-07 07:15:00 PM
Yeah.. I don't really have a huge problem with this either. Yea kids should have communication skills and should read some classic books. I have never needed to be able to understand the subtle metaphor's in one of my customer's emails. I have never had to read a 400 page document and explain to my supervisor what the them was.

What I did have to do was a bunch of math, have a bunch of shiat memorized or pull up some charts,and then design whatever my part is.

So... yeah. I love reading, I love books, but if we really want to teach job skills I think technical skills are part of it.

And you aren't going to not learn anything from levels of insulation or invasive plant inventory. You learn about physics and heat transfer, you learn about biology, botany, ecology, etc.
 
2012-12-07 07:16:16 PM

Bacontastesgood: I think the Telegraph article is pure claptrap.


Standard, "Hey, look at how stupid those hick Yankees are!" British 'Journalism'.
 
2012-12-07 07:17:28 PM

funmonger: Literature teaches the mind to articulate thoughts and apprehend the world, which is a science in and of itself. It rehearses the mind in problem solving, emotional intelligence and moral development.

Manuals teach you how to follow, not think.


So...what do you do for a living? Me, I'm college educated so I'm expected to do both. But I work with many high school graduate "laborers". Trust me, you DO NOT want everybody on a work site trying to do the problem solving and thinking...some people just gotta be trained to actually WORK, and gain problem solving skills by practicum. Real-world work scenarios ARE often mindlessly repetitive and based on following established protocols or dealing with restrictive rules and regulations.

There's also nothing worse than somebody who has been trained to "critically think" but has not been given the technical knowledge to know what they're working with.
 
2012-12-07 07:18:20 PM
Well, as someone with a MA in English, I am getting a kick...

Actually, this is not happy news, but if you wanted to drum up sympathy for the canon, you certainly could have chosen a better poster-child than "Catcher in the Rye," a book whose most redeeming quality is that it was short.

On the other hand, if parents are concerned, they could read to their children and continue to share love of literature beyond the board book stage.

I'm surprisingly okay with the loss of some teaching time devoted to great master works that are hard to make relevant at a young age. If Johnny can't read a street sign, let's work on that before Shakespeare.
 
2012-12-07 07:18:44 PM

Ishidan: There's also nothing worse than somebody who has been trained to "critically think" but has not been given the technical knowledge to know what they're working with.


Well, that would explain your advocacy of doing away with literature classes for high school.
 
2012-12-07 07:18:46 PM
FTFA: A new school curriculum which will affect 46 out of 50 states will make it compulsory for at least 70 per cent of books studied to be non-fiction, in an effort to ready pupils for the workplace.

How is this going to "ready" pupils for the workplace? Which workplace? Whose training manuals are you going to use as the standard? Contrary to popular belief within some large companies, not everyone does business the same way. Even within the same field, different companies do things their own way.

The purpose of school is to provide a broad education for their whole life, not to train children for their work life in a cube farm or an assembly line (or more likely, making french fries at Mooby's). Any functionally literate adult who has a formal education and says he believes otherwise is a hypocrite... or an idiot.

This is all growing out of this misguided notion that schools -- and even colleges -- are nothing but vocational training centers, rather than institutions of learning. Normally, the people who have this misconception are business executives and wealthy folks who don't have much education themselves and don't understand why we would "waste" resources on anything other than fostering more business.

Besides, I don't know why they want to train American kids for the workplace. If employers had their way, we'd send out every bit of work we can to off-shore sites, and the rest of the work would be done here by H-1B/L-1 labor and/or undocumented aliens who are off the books (depending upon the skill level required for the job). We live in an age where American business executives seem to think that the rest of the people are here simply to serve them and make them richer.

The Great Screwing continues...
 
2012-12-07 07:19:25 PM

willyfreddy: I double-checked that this wasn't from The Onion. Nope, it seems legit.

FTFA: Supporters of the directive argue that it will help pupils to develop the ability to write concisely and factually, which will be more useful in the workplace than a knowledge of Shakespeare.

I have less of a problem with this point, in relation to Shakespeare specifically (let the Drama kids read him). However, Catcher in the Rye and To Kill A Mockingbird are NOT Shakespeare. And I would NOT agree that replacing them with Invasive Plant Inventory is a good idea.

/I AM SO GLAD THAT I FINISHED PUBLIC SCHOOL BEFORE THE WORLD WENT INSANE


/god me too
//and that I dont have kids cause I can't afford private school.
 
2012-12-07 07:21:00 PM

C18H27NO3: FlyingLizardOfDoom: Catcher in the Rye was a stupid book.


A few of the books I studied in high school english, like Flowers for Algernon, were meaningful and helped me develop intellectually. Catcher in the Rye was as pedestrian and lacklustre as a book can be. It is what I expect if a friend asks me to read his book no one wants to publish.
 
2012-12-07 07:21:25 PM
 
2012-12-07 07:22:09 PM
Suggested non-fiction texts include

"include" - Ah yes, I know that term. It's weasel-journalist for: "the list had thousands of things on it, but we skimmed it until we found the most ridiculous ones and then misrepresented the context for our sensationalist story... click please?"
 
2012-12-07 07:23:13 PM
FTFA: The new educational standards have the backing of the influential National Governors' Association and the Council of Chief State School Officers, and are being part-funded by a grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation.

This does not surprise me in the least. He was a college drop-out and she was one of the people responsible for the Microsoft Bob user interface.
 
2012-12-07 07:23:42 PM
Looks like Brave New World more & more is becoming a reality...scary stuff.
 
2012-12-07 07:23:57 PM
Sad. I work with monoculture scientists who have zero classical education. They get the work done, but with no heart, empathy, or humor. I blame the technical mills for taking the humanity out of people. A little truth and beauty is needed in work life--and we'd all be better for it. I'm sure it would push those engagement scores up.
 
2012-12-07 07:26:08 PM

BronyMedic: I love pissing off the FARK Pedant squad. You have an extraneous m added into someone's name, and rather than it being a mistake, you're a illiterate who hasn't read a book, or has no right to criticize literary mind anesthesia.

[www.pedanticsociety.com image 850x244]


"An illiterate," BronyMedic.
 
2012-12-07 07:27:09 PM

Fark Me To Tears: FTFA: A new school curriculum which will affect 46 out of 50 states will make it compulsory for at least 70 per cent of books studied to be non-fiction, in an effort to ready pupils for the workplace.

How is this going to "ready" pupils for the workplace? Which workplace? Whose training manuals are you going to use as the standard? Contrary to popular belief within some large companies, not everyone does business the same way. Even within the same field, different companies do things their own way.

The purpose of school is to provide a broad education for their whole life, not to train children for their work life in a cube farm or an assembly line (or more likely, making french fries at Mooby's). Any functionally literate adult who has a formal education and says he believes otherwise is a hypocrite... or an idiot.

This is all growing out of this misguided notion that schools -- and even colleges -- are nothing but vocational training centers, rather than institutions of learning. Normally, the people who have this misconception are business executives and wealthy folks who don't have much education themselves and don't understand why we would "waste" resources on anything other than fostering more business.

Besides, I don't know why they want to train American kids for the workplace. If employers had their way, we'd send out every bit of work we can to off-shore sites, and the rest of the work would be done here by H-1B/L-1 labor and/or undocumented aliens who are off the books (depending upon the skill level required for the job). We live in an age where American business executives seem to think that the rest of the people are here simply to serve them and make them richer.

The Great Screwing continues...


Lovely rant. Pity it's based on a false pretense.

The nonfiction involved here won't be training manuals. It'll be nonfiction books read in subjects other than english. Reading David McCullough in history. Reading The Tipping Point in math or science. Reading the Omnivore's Dilemma in biology or environmental science. The point is to increase reading outside of English class, and to expose students to a BROADER range of books. A few adminstrators (and more than one Journalist) may have wildly missed the point, but the overall effect of the Common Curriculum will probably be that kids have read more books, covering a wider array of types of writing. Which is a very good thing.

Somebody posted a Common Core booklist upthread. I suggest you read it to get a better idea of what's actually at play here.
 
2012-12-07 07:29:00 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Um, what do you think the education systems of half the world have been doing for the last 20 years? Those folks may not even know who Shakespeare is, but they did a dang good job gutting our manufacturing and technology industries.


I realize I'm not the first person to respond to you here, but damned is this a stupid statement. I mean, damned.

You are, despite yourself, right in one sense. If we want to make our working class look more like China's, this is a great start.
 
2012-12-07 07:31:45 PM
These comments are priceless.

I expect much more crying over the state's voluntary participation in the Core Common State Standards Initiative.

Should be fun.

Other reading on this latest poutrage makes it seem some English teachers should maybe work on their comprehension skills, as some of the recommendations were for non English classes...
 
2012-12-07 07:33:07 PM
I'm enjoying that the people who are upset keep mentioning critical thinking.

So, you're telling me you learned critical thinking from reading fiction, but you took the article at face value, maybe only read the headline, and definitely didn't factcheck anything? Does that sound about right?
 
2012-12-07 07:33:15 PM
Enrolling a child in an government school is basically child abuse. I'm glad I don't have any. Tuition would be expensive.

/Prefers dogs
 
2012-12-07 07:33:20 PM
Ahhhhhrrrrggggg

/nonfiction is good because it sets up hypothetical situations that can be reflected upon in juxtaposition to the life one knows & lives thus creating a catalyst for critical thinking and abstract thought

//catcher speaks to the blossoming of the consumer driven, keeping up with the Jones', sheeple society that we have become. It also addresses issues of class conciousness

///it's all about the suitcases, nobody wants a roommate with lesser or better suitcases than they themselves possess.

////not many English majors on this thread.
 
2012-12-07 07:34:33 PM
We cling to the 12 years of education. Think, what if the high school years could become college years? How amazing if your child could become an engineer, a chef or know basis life skills? Imagine you paid all the school taxes and your child really got an education? Four years of school that would make a difference.
 
2012-12-07 07:34:50 PM

James F. Campbell: By the way, Ishidan, there's a great future of unemployment awaiting your future STEM graduates.


Beats the hell out of the average:
technicallybaltimore.com

Especially if you're in tech, math, or physical/life sciences:
technicallybaltimore.com

I like how your source put "life, physical, & social science" as a category. You know, because a microbiologist and economist can expect similar job markets.

/hot
 
2012-12-07 07:35:45 PM
My eldest is in 9th grade this year and his reading list for English class is pathetic. "The Hunger Games" is the required reading for his first semester. The farking Hunger Games!? The rest of the list is pretty pathetic. They're going to read excerpts, excerpts of Homer's Odyssey! No Grapes of Wrath, no Catcher in the Rye, no To Kill a Mockingbird, no Steinbeck, no Edgar Allen Poe, no Dickens. They are, at least reading "Romeo and Juliet". I guess it's still a staple of 9th grade English. I foresee a future of uneducated, illiterate boobs.

/I feel old now
//my lawn, etc.
 
2012-12-07 07:39:00 PM
This is just a self-defeating policy. "Recommended Levels of Insulation" is, like most government housing standards, written in iambic pentameter. While an impressive work in its own right, students deserve a more historical perspective in works of this nature.

Stick to the classics, people.
 
2012-12-07 07:40:02 PM

Jixa: My eldest is in 9th grade this year and his reading list for English class is pathetic. "The Hunger Games" is the required reading for his first semester. The farking Hunger Games!? The rest of the list is pretty pathetic. They're going to read excerpts, excerpts of Homer's Odyssey! No Grapes of Wrath, no Catcher in the Rye, no To Kill a Mockingbird, no Steinbeck, no Edgar Allen Poe, no Dickens. They are, at least reading "Romeo and Juliet". I guess it's still a staple of 9th grade English. I foresee a future of uneducated, illiterate boobs.

/I feel old now
//my lawn, etc.


The hunger games, really?

/now I am really glad I have no children

//and already received my well rounded education

///must leave now before I start looking for my hat, the one I wear when shooting people.
 
2012-12-07 07:41:36 PM

Weaver95: "In the end, education has to be about more than simply ensuring that kids can get a job. Isn't it supposed to be about making well-rounded citizens?"

NOTHING in our culture encourages creativity. we despise artists, fear hackers and sideline anyone who steps outside the accepted norms. in some cases, that view is changing...but its moving very slowly, if at all.


We do, however, expect everyone who has trouble with finding/keeping a good job to be able to start their own small business, complete with well-written business plans and quality advertising concepts.

/because bootstraps
 
2012-12-07 07:43:00 PM

Gyrfalcon: Indubitably: Gyrfalcon: Indubitably: BronyMedic: Indubitably: Did you see my previous post about overreacting?

You should.

Aren't you assuming that I'm "ovrreacting", and not further trolling people who seem to think a single grammatical error matters in a non-academic conversation on the internet?

Tisk tisk. Didn't your mother teach you what happens when you assume?

Yeah, and she also taught me how to spell "tsk" too.

*)

You "spell" tsk?

Is this a question or a statement?

An interrogatory.


Cute.

So, did you pass?
 
2012-12-07 07:43:13 PM

James F. Campbell: By the way, Ishidan, there's a great future of unemployment awaiting your future STEM graduates.

Ok wow...that one caught me by surprise.
So what piece of classical literature should I use to analyze this information? Ah, the context that has come from a well rounded American education, it allows me to recognize exactly HOW we're being screwed.

"1984" and "Brave New World" appears to be popular here today, of course, as is "The Grapes of Wrath", but what work of fiction features a country's leaders outright screwing their own citizens in favor of importing cheap labor from elsewhere-while tacitly admitting that the "foreigners" are perfectly capable of the work?
 
2012-12-07 07:43:14 PM

Jixa: My eldest is in 9th grade this year and his reading list for English class is pathetic. "The Hunger Games" is the required reading for his first semester. The farking Hunger Games!? The rest of the list is pretty pathetic. They're going to read excerpts, excerpts of Homer's Odyssey! No Grapes of Wrath, no Catcher in the Rye, no To Kill a Mockingbird, no Steinbeck, no Edgar Allen Poe, no Dickens. They are, at least reading "Romeo and Juliet". I guess it's still a staple of 9th grade English. I foresee a future of uneducated, illiterate boobs.

/I feel old now
//my lawn, etc.


Yes, reminds me of Mr. Holland's Opus and his rant about using everything from Beethoven to Rock n Roll. I don't care if they use Shakespeare or Harry Potter or some newer young adult fiction. Get them hooked on reading, then introduce the classical stuff.
 
2012-12-07 07:43:30 PM
i read catcher in the rye in my early 20s and i despised it so much that i stapled it to a tree in the front yard and let the elements slowly eat it away.
 
2012-12-07 07:44:52 PM
oh and when someone tells me their favorite book is catcher in the rye i just end the conversation there and walk away. people are entitled to their opinions and personal preferences, but that particular detail is beyond telling.
 
2012-12-07 07:45:11 PM

K.B.O. Winston: Weaver95: "In the end, education has to be about more than simply ensuring that kids can get a job. Isn't it supposed to be about making well-rounded citizens?"

NOTHING in our culture encourages creativity. we despise artists, fear hackers and sideline anyone who steps outside the accepted norms. in some cases, that view is changing...but its moving very slowly, if at all.

We do, however, expect everyone who has trouble with finding/keeping a good job to be able to start their own small business, complete with well-written business plans and quality advertising concepts.

/because bootstraps


And how do you expect these jobless folks are supposed to fund their small business.

/can write a killer business plan & market the hell out of anything but without an excellent credit score or a wealthy family member or other investors...

//back to the bread lines with you

///bootstraps my arse
 
2012-12-07 07:45:28 PM

I_C_Weener: I say a new petition to the White House is in order.
 
Replace this new book list with Ender's Game, and The Hobbit, and The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.


Loved the first, hated the second, never read the third.

Seriously, if i want to knock my insomniac arse out in 3-4 minutes I just read a couple pages of the hobbit.
 
2012-12-07 07:47:16 PM
As I said to an administrator the other day, education is used to turn primates into human beings.
 
2012-12-07 07:48:42 PM
The joke is on us if we think kids read books from cover to cover anymore just because they were kicking around in the library. What is the expression, re-arranging the deck furniture as the Titanic is sinking?
 
2012-12-07 07:49:51 PM
To Kill a Mockingbird is probably being removed because the "N-word" is in it...
 
2012-12-07 07:50:20 PM
Because if there's one way out of becoming a welfare recipient, it's by being an English Lit. major
 
2012-12-07 07:50:26 PM

Ishidan: James F. Campbell: By the way, Ishidan, there's a great future of unemployment awaiting your future STEM graduates.
Ok wow...that one caught me by surprise.
So what piece of classical literature should I use to analyze this information? Ah, the context that has come from a well rounded American education, it allows me to recognize exactly HOW we're being screwed.

"1984" and "Brave New World" appears to be popular here today, of course, as is "The Grapes of Wrath", but what work of fiction features a country's leaders outright screwing their own citizens in favor of importing cheap labor from elsewhere-while tacitly admitting that the "foreigners" are perfectly capable of the work?


I tried finding them on Google, but all I came up with are guides on outsourcing and sites that let you outsource the creation of fictional narratives.
 
2012-12-07 07:51:42 PM
Neever red edder of dem bookes. I turnd out gest fine.
 
2012-12-07 07:54:02 PM

Indubitably: Indubitably: Skirl Hutsenreiter: Summercat: Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.

Try his travel pieces and think.

"How can I make history come to light for my students? Is it the text? Or is it me? Or both?"

Whenever I hear about a book that didn't work in a class, I hear about a teacher more...


I dunno, I had an English Lit teacher that i would have sold my soul to have as a lover and even she couldn't make "Ethan Frome" tolerable.

// that was a terrible story.. well written but awfull none-the less
 
2012-12-07 07:54:52 PM

meanmutton: doyner: FTFA: "A new school curriculum which will affect 46 out of 50 states will make it compulsory for at least 70 per cent of books studied to be non-fiction, in an effort to ready pupils for the workplace. "
And here is precicely the underlying problem in the US. We have changed our education system into a worker-bee development system.

ed·u·ca·tion/ˌɛdʒʊˈkeɪʃən/ Show Spelled [ej-oo-key-shuhn] noun
1. the act or process of imparting or acquiring general knowledge, developing the powers of reasoning and judgment, and generally of preparing oneself or others intellectually for mature life.

Education has nothing to do with being able to start working at Home Depot or Microsoft. Call me whackadoodle, but this is an indicator of our march from citizens to serfs.

Apparently your schooling was light on history.


OK, I laughed. Touche'
 
2012-12-07 07:57:08 PM

Indubitably: Gyrfalcon: Indubitably: Gyrfalcon: Indubitably: BronyMedic: Indubitably: Did you see my previous post about overreacting?

You should.

Aren't you assuming that I'm "ovrreacting", and not further trolling people who seem to think a single grammatical error matters in a non-academic conversation on the internet?

Tisk tisk. Didn't your mother teach you what happens when you assume?

Yeah, and she also taught me how to spell "tsk" too.

*)

You "spell" tsk?

Is this a question or a statement?

An interrogatory.

Cute.

So, did you pass?


P.S. I have no alts. I don't alt. WYSIWYG. Word.

P.P.S. Kittay? You read this yet? You should.

P.P.P.S. Next alt-accusation, and I don't *spec* what I will do... *)
 
2012-12-07 07:58:29 PM

IronMyno: Indubitably: Indubitably: Skirl Hutsenreiter: Summercat: Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.

Try his travel pieces and think.

"How can I make history come to light for my students? Is it the text? Or is it me? Or both?"

Whenever I hear about a book that didn't work in a class, I hear about a teacher more...

I dunno, I had an English Lit teacher that i would have sold my soul to have as a lover and even she couldn't make "Ethan Frome" tolerable.

// that was a terrible story.. well written but awfull none-the less


///She obviously didn't teach you dashing...
 
2012-12-07 08:02:15 PM
sorry, i thought caulfield was a whiny little mope who should have gotten stomped and kids are better off not reading it.

instead, read Irvine Welsh, kids.
 
2012-12-07 08:04:09 PM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: dickfreckle: Grand_Moff_Joseph: Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit

You won't need that suit around me. I despise that book. It's not the worst thing I've ever read, but it's clearly the one with the most unearned importance attached to it. On the Road is in that league as well.

Walden Two, by B.F. Skinner. Easily the worst book I've ever read, but then I've never tried Twilight.


I haven't read Walden Two, but a quick look at the Wiki shows it has some potential as a story... If you get more than 60 30 pages into the first Twilight book, I'd be suprised.
 
2012-12-07 08:06:26 PM
The motivated kids will get to college no matter what the local school/daycare teaches them.

And there is nothing wrong with knowing recommended levels of insulation. Those are the kinds of people we need more of... the kind who know how to make $30/hour without being stupid enough to saddle themselves with $50k in college debt when they are 22. Those people are farking idiots.
 
2012-12-07 08:07:11 PM
This sounded pretty bad until I read the NYT article linked to up top in the thread. Then I remembered that I took an AP English Language class (i.e. a college-level English class that was all nonfiction essays) in 11th grade that was far and away both the most exciting and most informative experience I had with the English language since originally learning to read. I had no idea what even really constituted an essay until I took that class. Can you believe that? And I went to a very, very good public school too!

Too many English teachers just hand out books to read and then ask questions about the plot or how you feel about the plot. That's worthless, and when the books are long, droll crap that's uninteresting to the common student but gets picked because it's old or because of political correctness it kills their interest in reading. Essays are shorter. Students who wouldn't normally give a shiat might actually read it since it's not as daunting a task. And since you can cover more ground, you're more likely to find something that actually interests a particular reader. On top of that, when you're attempting to teach pupils how to analyze and imitate the literary and rhetorical techniques that professional authors use to make their points--something that should be the main goal of every single English class from about Junior High onward but is tragically overlooked in my experience--it lets teachers choose from a greater diversity of examples and the short sample size will make it easier for students to skim through when they're trying to figure it out.

Now, all this nonsense about reading recipes and timetables sounds ridiculous to me, as any student should be able to do that towards the end of high school, but I would certainly be in favor of reading a whole lot more non-fiction in English classes so long as it's used to further actual English skills.
 
2012-12-07 08:07:55 PM
Is this a combined catcher in the rye/ ayn rand thread now?
 
2012-12-07 08:11:58 PM

ProfessorOhki: James F. Campbell: By the way, Ishidan, there's a great future of unemployment awaiting your future STEM graduates.

Beats the hell out of the average:
[technicallybaltimore.com image 797x321]

Especially if you're in tech, math, or physical/life sciences:
[technicallybaltimore.com image 540x323]

I like how your source put "life, physical, & social science" as a category. You know, because a microbiologist and economist can expect similar job markets.

/hot


Yes, and how many of those jobs are filled by Americans?

Ishidan: Ok wow...that one caught me by surprise.
So what piece of classical literature should I use to analyze this information? Ah, the context that has come from a well rounded American education, it allows me to recognize exactly HOW we're being screwed.

"1984" and "Brave New World" appears to be popular here today, of course, as is "The Grapes of Wrath", but what work of fiction features a country's leaders outright screwing their own citizens in favor of importing cheap labor from elsewhere-while tacitly admitting that the "foreigners" are perfectly capable of the work?


You stupid, false dichomtomy-loving motherfarker.
 
2012-12-07 08:12:23 PM

FlyingLizardOfDoom: Catcher in the Rye was a stupid book.


Holden Caufield was just a rich, whining biatch.
 
2012-12-07 08:13:19 PM

James F. Campbell: dichomtomy dichotomy


Fixed before the herp and derp, hopefully.
 
2012-12-07 08:13:21 PM

Darth_Lukecash: This is particularly sad. It is imagination that leads to innovation. Innovation leads to efficiency, progress and improvement.


Would this explain why we're still number one in the world for innovation? 


/ So if we follow this, we'll neither be technically talented nor innovative!
 
2012-12-07 08:14:45 PM
Okay, I know from my 20 years working as a teacher that this is futile to discuss, and I know from my two years of Fark that no one will read this, but I'm on my third fourth beer, so here goes.

The primary goal of publically funded education is to prepare citizens to be useful, productive members of that public.

So, what does this mean?

I was taught that a productive member of a public needs to know enough about the world to vote, to have an opinion based on more than emotional response. Therefore, a "well-rounded" education covered enough philosophy and history and so on to allow me to think, at least a bit, for myself. The goal, and I felt this throughout my K-12 schooling, was to make me something other than an automaton who voted for someone before they spouted phrases I liked ("I feel your pain") or for something just because it had a pretty name (e.g., The Patriot Act).

Other people (including those of my "generation," I'm sure) doubtlessly got other explanations for what it means to be a "useful, productive member of the public." But it was my impression that, ultimately, the idea was to make everyone a valuable citizen.

Right now, it would seem the definition of "valuable citizen" is "someone who can get a job."

I have no idea if this is a good or bad thing. I strongly distrust anyone right now who claims they know if this is a good or bad thing.

It does reflect, however, that we live in a global economy, where having an unemployable workforce weakens us. It also reflects that we are in a recession, though no longer the Great Recession, where unemployment impacts so many other economic issues.

Moreover, and this is where my personal opinion is going to flop over everything, it reflects a growing schism between a "classical" education and a "practical" or vocational education.

If I could wish one thing for America's educational system, it would be that vocational training would lose its taint as "stupid people's" education. There is nothing, absolutely nothing, "stupid" about learning a trade. We are in desperate need of skilled laborers, and yet we scorn them. We think of them as the "great unwashed."

Why? What good is someone who can quote poetry but cannot produce anything of use?

However, what good is a university education if it cannot produce graduates who can think of life in poetic terms? Do we really want the "great thinkers" of our time to be raised on nothing but practical literature?

We have before us now a generation (I hate the term, but what else can I use?) of people who went to college to get a "better job." They weren't just told that a BA/BS would give them a better life, they were PROMISED it would do so. Moreover, a "better life" was specifically defined as a "better job."

But there just aren't that many "better jobs" to go around. The pyramid narrows at the top. We need more workers than we do managers, and that is never, ever going to change.

So what we have now is a workforce that has been told that being an actual worker is being "stupid" and "uneducated." And when someone with an education who thinks they're smart goes looking for a job, they find only employment for stupid, uneducated people, if they can find any work at all.

And don't forget that many a person with a college degree have applied for a practical job and been turned down for being "overqualified."

The best response to this problem, IMO, is to realize that not everyone needs to study Shakespeare and many people would do much better and be much happier learning a trade (without being labeled "one of those people").

What we see in this article is a somewhat clumsy attempt (but aren't all initial attempts clumsy?) to address this gap between a classical and a practical education. The main reason it's so clumsy, however, is that Americans hate the idea of elitism and refuse to separate children during their primary/secondary education. Since the "elite" ideals of Shakespeare and Modern Lit (by which I mean Catcher in the Rye/The Bell Jar/As I Lay Dying, etc.) don't produce good worker bees, the idea here is that everyone must go to the bottom rung.

(Harrison Bergeron? Anyone? Beuller?)

God forbid we should allow high school students choices, options to follow philosophy or plumbing, law or auto mechanics.

It's a challenge America has set for itself that I fear cannot be resolved. We want to provide the best education we can for our students (provided our taxes stay low), but we don't want to individualize that education, and thus limit students' choices. In the end, the education we provide is bad, and they have no choices at all beyond what they carve out for themselves.
 
2012-12-07 08:16:17 PM
Not for nothing, but TCITR is intilectually worthless. TKAM is a much much more compelling book.
 
2012-12-07 08:16:22 PM

ProfessorOhki: I tried finding them on Google, but all I came up with are guides on outsourcing and sites that let you outsource the creation of fictional narratives.


I can't believe you farking ingrates think that literature has no scholarly value whatsoever. "Hurr durr derp derp, you can't teach critical thinking with literature!"

Don't you farking realize that you're playing right into the authoritarians' hands?
 
2012-12-07 08:19:01 PM

Diogenes: So weird.

Growing up, my parents taught me applicable labor-based skills. How to do basic electronics. How to service a car engine. How to sew. How to build things. How to fix things. And in school I learned literature and science and math and history.

Today my parents would be making me read The Red Badge of Courage at home and at school I'd be learning how to gap a spark plug.


In my junior year I had English class before Auto Shop, so yea, schools use to taugh both, now they only teach "how to look crap up on Google 101" cause you don't need to know anything when you have an iPhone in your pocket.
 
2012-12-07 08:21:50 PM

gimmechocolate: Okay, I know from my 20 years working as a teacher that this is futile to discuss, and I know from my two years of Fark that no one will read this, but I'm on my third fourth beer, so here goes.

The primary goal of publically funded education is to prepare citizens to be useful, productive members of that public.

So, what does this mean?

I was taught that a productive member of a public needs to know enough about the world to vote, to have an opinion based on more than emotional response. Therefore, a "well-rounded" education covered enough philosophy and history and so on to allow me to think, at least a bit, for myself. The goal, and I felt this throughout my K-12 schooling, was to make me something other than an automaton who voted for someone before they spouted phrases I liked ("I feel your pain") or for something just because it had a pretty name (e.g., The Patriot Act).

Other people (including those of my "generation," I'm sure) doubtlessly got other explanations for what it means to be a "useful, productive member of the public." But it was my impression that, ultimately, the idea was to make everyone a valuable citizen.

Right now, it would seem the definition of "valuable citizen" is "someone who can get a job."

I have no idea if this is a good or bad thing. I strongly distrust anyone right now who claims they know if this is a good or bad thing.

It does reflect, however, that we live in a global economy, where having an unemployable workforce weakens us. It also reflects that we are in a recession, though no longer the Great Recession, where unemployment impacts so many other economic issues.

Moreover, and this is where my personal opinion is going to flop over everything, it reflects a growing schism between a "classical" education and a "practical" or vocational education.

If I could wish one thing for America's educational system, it would be that vocational training would lose its taint as "stupid people's" education. There is nothing, a ...


we had to read lots of shakespeare in school. it was a good background, especially if the teacher was smart enough to point out the parts that would make your typical 15 year old male laugh.

if you're a teacher drinking beer on fark why haven't you slept with your students yet?
 
2012-12-07 08:24:20 PM

James F. Campbell: ProfessorOhki: James F. Campbell: By the way, Ishidan, there's a great future of unemployment awaiting your future STEM graduates.

Beats the hell out of the average:
[technicallybaltimore.com image 797x321]

Especially if you're in tech, math, or physical/life sciences:
[technicallybaltimore.com image 540x323]

I like how your source put "life, physical, & social science" as a category. You know, because a microbiologist and economist can expect similar job markets.

/hot

Yes, and how many of those jobs are filled by Americans?


Irrelevant. There's plenty of non-Americans filling the non-STEM roles as well. You don't get to exclude them from just some of the groups. I think we'll just leave the goalposts where they started.

Indubitably: IronMyno:

// that was a terrible story.. well written but awfull none-the less

///She obviously didn't teach you dashing hyphenation...


Joining words is performed with a hyphen, not a dash. I would show you the difference between hyphens, en dashes, and em dashes... but apparently Fark refuses to acknowledge the distinction too.
 
2012-12-07 08:25:31 PM

Nehllah: I'm enjoying that the people who are upset keep mentioning critical thinking.

So, you're telling me you learned critical thinking from reading fiction, but you took the article at face value, maybe only read the headline, and definitely didn't factcheck anything? Does that sound about right?


From the actual article:

Suggested non-fiction texts include Recommended Levels of Insulation by the the US Environmental Protection Agency, and the Invasive Plant Inventory, by California's Invasive Plant Council.

When one reads a newspaper article, one generally expects that the JOURNALIST has done some fact-checking, and has engaged in a bit of critical thinking of his/her own. If the reader has to do all of her own fact-checking and critical thinking, then what you have is not in fact an "article" it's just a few words pasted together by an idiot who wanted to get people outraged and/or thought they were being funny: "Ha-ha, schools are going to have kids reading EPA regulations isn't that hysterical!" and not actually write a news article.

In either case, the facts did not get disseminated. You, however, are merely promulgating the so-called journalist's laziness by mocking the readers' lack of knowledge and by failing to explain these facts; and by refusing to provide any information which the writer of the article did not that might have explained things better. So you're really no better than either the writer or the people you scorn.
 
2012-12-07 08:26:01 PM

my alt's alt's alt: oh and when someone tells me their favorite book is catcher in the rye i just end the conversation there and walk away. people are entitled to their opinions and personal preferences, but that particular detail is beyond telling.


Could be worse, they could tell you it's The Bible.

/pulls on his Nomex suit and ducks into his Transite-lined bunker
 
2012-12-07 08:27:58 PM

AssAsInAssassin: Is it any wonder that the monkey's confused?
He said "Mama, Mama, the presiden'ts a fool.
Why do I have to keep reading these technical manuals?"
And the joint chiefs of staff and the brokers on Wall Street said
"Don't make us laugh, you're a smart kid
Time is linear, memory's a stranger, history is for fools,
Man is a tool in the hands of the Great God Almighty."
And they gave him command
of a nuclear submarine
and sent him back
in search of the Garden of Eden.

/Roger Waters


He's a prophet.
 
2012-12-07 08:28:49 PM

James F. Campbell: You stupid, false dichotomy-loving motherfarker.


Ad hominem.

/see, I can play the "throw out the names of logical fallacies" game, too
 
2012-12-07 08:28:59 PM
Omahawg: if you're a teacher drinking beer on fark why haven't you slept with your students yet?

Ex-teacher. I saw the light.

/students too gross to sleep with, honestly.
 
2012-12-07 08:30:54 PM

Ishidan: more stupidity


Let me explain it to you simply and briefly: close reading. The practice and mastery of close reading allows you to detect manipulation. Focusing on the words, their meanings, their connotations. Why these words? What is really being said? That's a skill developed in literature classes, and it's part and parcel of critical thinking -- a skill that can undermine an authoritarian attempt at manipulation or control.

There's a reason newly-minted authoritarian states execute academics first instead of scientists, engineers, or ... whatever you are.
 
2012-12-07 08:31:54 PM
Freaky. Just before looking at this headline I looked at my bookshelf and To Kill a Mockingbird and Catcher in the Rye are sitting one on top of the other.
 
2012-12-07 08:33:01 PM

James F. Campbell: ProfessorOhki: I tried finding them on Google, but all I came up with are guides on outsourcing and sites that let you outsource the creation of fictional narratives.

I can't believe you farking ingrates think that literature has no scholarly value whatsoever. "Hurr durr derp derp, you can't teach critical thinking with literature!"

Don't you farking realize that you're playing right into the authoritarians' hands?


Other way around. There's nothing an authoritarian would rather have than a subservient mass of easily-entertained people with no real world skills who spend their time making up and reading stories. You want playing into their hands? Look at 'reality' TV.

A populace well versed in facts - one that actually has the skills to tell what's going on and retaliate if need be - is the last thing such an imagined enemy would want. Go back to watching your parlor wall, citizen.
 
2012-12-07 08:33:28 PM

ProfessorOhki: James F. Campbell: ProfessorOhki: James F. Campbell: By the way, Ishidan, there's a great future of unemployment awaiting your future STEM graduates.

Beats the hell out of the average:
[technicallybaltimore.com image 797x321]

Especially if you're in tech, math, or physical/life sciences:
[technicallybaltimore.com image 540x323]

I like how your source put "life, physical, & social science" as a category. You know, because a microbiologist and economist can expect similar job markets.

/hot

Yes, and how many of those jobs are filled by Americans?

Irrelevant. There's plenty of non-Americans filling the non-STEM roles as well. You don't get to exclude them from just some of the groups. I think we'll just leave the goalposts where they started.

Indubitably: IronMyno:

// that was a terrible story.. well written but awfull none-the less

///She obviously didn't teach you dashing hyphenation...

Joining words is performed with a hyphen, not a dash. I would show you the difference between hyphens, en dashes, and em dashes... but apparently Fark refuses to acknowledge the distinction too.


Mine was poetic; yours is prescriptive...
 
2012-12-07 08:34:44 PM

ProfessorOhki: James F. Campbell: ProfessorOhki: I tried finding them on Google, but all I came up with are guides on outsourcing and sites that let you outsource the creation of fictional narratives.

I can't believe you farking ingrates think that literature has no scholarly value whatsoever. "Hurr durr derp derp, you can't teach critical thinking with literature!"

Don't you farking realize that you're playing right into the authoritarians' hands?

Other way around. There's nothing an authoritarian would rather have than a subservient mass of easily-entertained people with no real world skills who spend their time making up and reading stories. You want playing into their hands? Look at 'reality' TV.

A populace well versed in facts - one that actually has the skills to tell what's going on and retaliate if need be - is the last thing such an imagined enemy would want. Go back to watching your parlor wall, citizen.

Grrrer.

 
2012-12-07 08:35:17 PM

ProfessorOhki: Other way around. There's nothing an authoritarian would rather have than a subservient mass of easily-entertained people with no real world skills who spend their time making up and reading stories. You want playing into their hands? Look at 'reality' TV.


Really? You think watching reality TV is the same thing as reading literature in an English class? Ah, I see, you're either a moron or a troll. Either way, you're an enormous waste of oxygen.
 
2012-12-07 08:38:43 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.


No arguments there. That's the one book from high school that made me feel dumber after reading it.
 
2012-12-07 08:39:36 PM
Wait... You mean that history classes may be forced to require primary source reading?

That science courses will teach actual science with citations, studies, and charts rather than just bulling your way through with 'and here are diagrams'?

Lit courses that include popular criticism, texts from the time regarding works, historical information?

Yes. Yes. A million times yes!
 
2012-12-07 08:41:41 PM

James F. Campbell: ProfessorOhki: Other way around. There's nothing an authoritarian would rather have than a subservient mass of easily-entertained people with no real world skills who spend their time making up and reading stories. You want playing into their hands? Look at 'reality' TV.

Really? You think watching reality TV is the same thing as reading literature in an English class? Ah, I see, you're either a moron or a troll. Either way, you're an enormous waste of oxygen.


For someone who's defending creative writing, you're certainly bad on picking up tone. You have to read between the lines- really pick up on the symbolism behind the facade of the text itself. What does the "TV" represent? Is it just a box? No. It's a mirror; a mirror that allows humanity to gaze back upon itself.

/Please catch it this time?
//I really don't think I can sarcasm any harder
///Though, I am willing to try if need be
 
2012-12-07 08:41:42 PM
gimmechocolate


I'm generally a dick here, mostly posting out of amusement or annoyance. And I almost never read long posts such as yours, but I found your post to be one of the more thoughtful and eloquent things I have read here. Cheers to you.

/tilts Newcastle
 
2012-12-07 08:41:58 PM
Farking hated every so-called "classic" they forced down our throats. Bored me to tears. Pretentious drivel, from Jane Eyre to Of Mice and Men. It was the literary equivalent of being forced to watch the Hallmark Channel, which I also detest.

The only positive thing from my parents moving me around during high school was only catching maybe a quarter of what everyone else had to endure as I managed to dodge the one summer of huge reading lists that every school featured.

Give me nonfiction or give me explosions and magic in my books. Nonfiction is purely for escapism and should never resemble reality.

I wish this was a troll. Seriously though I can't stand reading existential wrangling and the minutiae of daily lives of characters. Even Tolkien gets old with entire pages dedicated to some detail of the landscape. Sorry, gets in the way of epic plot in my opinion. I have ADD and my brain literally starts falling asleep if it's not being stimulated enough and a lot of writing that isn't sci-fi or fantasy knocks it right out.

Replace all the lit classes with real stuff and I won't mind one whit. Never read The Catcher In The Rye and it didn't stop me from appreciating the movie Conspiracy Theory. Can't remember another context in which it's even come up in my 36 years except from people who do enjoy literay classics. More power to them.
 
2012-12-07 08:44:51 PM
Government knows best.
 
2012-12-07 08:45:46 PM
has somebody mentioned Holden Caulfield being whiny yet? I'm too lazy to check.
 
2012-12-07 08:47:20 PM
To label

Yet again...

*)
 
2012-12-07 08:48:57 PM

cptjeff: Skirl Hutsenreiter: Summercat: Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.

I loved Hemmingway as a teen. Still do, though I don't read much of him often these days, I've got so much other stuff piled up and waiting. Hemmingway isn't a crappy writer just because his style isn't to your taste, and the fact that you don't like him doesn't mean that everybody in your age group hates him.

I enjoyed The Old Man and the Sea the first time I read it, middle school IIRC, and still enjoy rereading it every couple of years today. And I can't say I can remember hearing many people in classes where it was read complain, at least any more than the standard, "I hate reading" group.

On the other hand, I loathe Dickens. I have a friend who loves everything he's ever written. I love Victor Hugo, my brother couldn't make it more than 50 pages into The Hunchback of Notre Dame. All three of those authors are literary greats, and should be broadly read. Will you like every writing style? No. Is it worth being exposed to them? Hell yes. And if you don't like Hemmingway's style, you should be thankful your teacher didn't assign you For Whom the Bell Tolls. The Old Man and the Sea is at least short, though the high school you might have enjoyed the sex in For Whom the Bell Tolls.


We had The Sun Also Rises in high school. It was another one that didn't particularly resonate with the class at an all girls school, but I didn't find it as simplistic and monotonous as The Old Man and the Sea.

Willa Cather was another one where the teacher's choice did not line up with the author's best work IMHO. We did My Antonia, and I got tired of the food. I didn't try another Cather for ten years (O Pioneers!, which I loved) and now I count Death Comes for the Archbishop as one of my favorite novels. My Antonia, though, I still don't see the merit in - so far as I can tell, it was primarily chosen from her works just for the amount of symbolism that there was to analyze.

And I like Dickens, but from that period I actually prefer Hardy, which no one reads in school. Oh, well.
 
2012-12-07 08:50:38 PM

rhondajeremy: Looks like Brave New World more & more is becoming a reality...scary stuff.


Have your soma and be happy.
 
2012-12-07 08:52:06 PM
As long as they pull Fahrenheit 451 off the shelves, all is well. It gives the unwashed masses funny ideas
 
2012-12-07 08:53:05 PM

James F. Campbell: Ishidan: more stupidity

Let me explain it to you simply and briefly: close reading. The practice and mastery of close reading allows you to detect manipulation. Focusing on the words, their meanings, their connotations. Why these words? What is really being said? That's a skill developed in literature classes, and it's part and parcel of critical thinking -- a skill that can undermine an authoritarian attempt at manipulation or control.

There's a reason newly-minted authoritarian states execute academics first instead of scientists, engineers, or ... whatever you are.


So we've gone from discussing employability in both technical and labor fields to resisting government authoritarianism, have we?

There's a reason your profile says "I get paid to go to school" instead of "I get paid to work", I suppose. However, most people won't and can't be like you. They need to be EMPLOYABLE.

What am I? I'm employed. You?

Employed in what? Well, I've been a paraprofessional, as an AHERA asbestos inspector (which is where I wrote reports in business-prescribed style, meant to answer scientific questions in a predictable way: to wit, "I have discovered asbestos in your building using the techniques described in the manual. I have diagrammed them using standard architectural notation, as found in THAT manual. I will observe the abatement workers to ensure that they follow THEIR manual during its removal.). Today, I'm in a similar but wider field-but nonetheless, following a manual is a key part of the job, being inventive in physical manipulation is a key part of the job, being able to detect metapolitical shenanigans is not.

Hey, sucks that you'll be the first against the wall when your hypothetical dictator sweeps to power...maybe you should learn how to drive a truck?

/yeah I'm pulling your chain, long and hard. Might be because I have a Bachelor of Arts, and I'm told I'd make more money if I got a CDL. Therefore, I speak from experience in regards to the employment value of a non-technical education: there is none.
 
2012-12-07 08:55:54 PM
There was once this guy that wasted his time in calligraphy class in college. He wasn't even going to the school that was teaching the class, he just wanted to learn a dying art. Can you imagine that, calligraphy? Long story short, he was a miserable failure his whole life and never did anything worthwhile, except be one of the founders of Apple computers.
 
2012-12-07 08:56:13 PM
doubled99

Thank you! :-)
 
2012-12-07 08:58:17 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: cptjeff: Skirl Hutsenreiter: Summercat: Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.

I loved Hemmingway as a teen. Still do, though I don't read much of him often these days, I've got so much other stuff piled up and waiting. Hemmingway isn't a crappy writer just because his style isn't to your taste, and the fact that you don't like him doesn't mean that everybody in your age group hates him.

I enjoyed The Old Man and the Sea the first time I read it, middle school IIRC, and still enjoy rereading it every couple of years today. And I can't say I can remember hearing many people in classes where it was read complain, at least any more than the standard, "I hate reading" group.

On the other hand, I loathe Dickens. I have a friend who loves everything he's ever written. I love Victor Hugo, my brother couldn't make it more than 50 pages into The Hunchback of Notre Dame. All three of those authors are literary greats, and should be broadly read. Will you like every writing style? No. Is it worth being exposed to them? Hell yes. And if you don't like Hemmingway's style, you should be thankful your teacher didn't assign you For Whom the Bell Tolls. The Old Man and the Sea is at least short, though the high school you might have enjoyed the sex in For Whom the Bell Tolls.

We had The Sun Also Rises in high school. It was another one that didn't particularly resonate with the class at an all girls school, but I didn't find it as simplistic and monotonous as The Old Man and the Sea.

Willa Cather was another one where the teacher's choice did not line up with the author's best work IMHO. We did My Antonia, and I got ti ...


I think you suck as a teacher at your school apparently?

Please.

Quit insulting our collective intelligence, please.

To engage
 
BHK
2012-12-07 09:01:26 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: dickfreckle: Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.

Um, what do you think the education systems of half the world have been doing for the last 20 years? Those folks may not even know who Shakespeare is, but they did a dang good job gutting our manufacturing and technology industries. 


They probably know who Shakespeare is, and they won't be going backwards with their children, teaching them to be unthinking, mindless worker drones as they accumulate more wealth. They'll push their children into creative pursuits and they'll not only crush the US in manufacturing and technology, but in whatever the next frontier in human progress is as well. Here, it'll just be a bunch of government worshiping welfare cases who cower behind fences and eat GMO garbage while they cheer every TV show that makes out America to be the best damned country and the freest nation on earth.



Perhaps we need to fight back in the same manner to catch up. Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit


Government schools, in the U.S. at least, have been all about this sort of thing since they were founded. It's just taken a long time to eliminate the thinkers from the bookshelves.
 
2012-12-07 09:01:44 PM

gimmechocolate: Omahawg: if you're a teacher drinking beer on fark why haven't you slept with your students yet?

Ex-teacher. I saw the light.

/students too gross to sleep with, honestly.


Can't say as I blame you. thankless job putting up with little punk smartasses like...well...me.

this is what they should make kids read to teach 'em about real life and stuff.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-12-07 09:02:45 PM

Ishidan: There's a reason your profile says "I get paid to go to school" instead of "I get paid to work", I suppose. However, most people won't and can't be like you. They need to be EMPLOYABLE.

What am I? I'm employed. You?


Well, I don't have to work because I get paid to go to school. And I get paid to go to school because I'm good at what I do. Listening to your sad sack story now, it's no surprise you look down your nose at me and at literature in general. You pretty much have to in order to feel like you're worth anything. You bitter, pathetic man.
 
2012-12-07 09:03:10 PM

Etchy333: There was once this guy that wasted his time in calligraphy class in college. He wasn't even going to the school that was teaching the class, he just wanted to learn a dying art. Can you imagine that, calligraphy? Long story short, he was a miserable failure his whole life and never did anything worthwhile, except be one of the founders of Apple computers.


He didn't build that
 
2012-12-07 09:05:03 PM
To build
 
2012-12-07 09:05:08 PM

James F. Campbell: Well, I don't have to work because I get paid to go to school. And I get paid to go to school because I'm good at what I do.


fark everyone else. You got yours.
 
2012-12-07 09:07:06 PM

muck4doo: rhondajeremy: Looks like Brave New World more & more is becoming a reality...scary stuff.

Have your soma and be happy.


Do I have to be one of those filthy Epsilons?
 
2012-12-07 09:08:22 PM

muck4doo: James F. Campbell: Well, I don't have to work because I get paid to go to school. And I get paid to go to school because I'm good at what I do.

fark everyone else. You got yours.


I think getting paid to go to school at the management level is a crime funded by criminals.

When I arrest you, your arm may be broken, self-aggrandized jackhat, and I hope you learn from that experience, for if you don't learn there, I'll teach you here...

*)
 
2012-12-07 09:14:32 PM

djkutch: AssAsInAssassin: Is it any wonder that the monkey's confused?
He said "Mama, Mama, the presiden'ts a fool.
Why do I have to keep reading these technical manuals?"
And the joint chiefs of staff and the brokers on Wall Street said
"Don't make us laugh, you're a smart kid
Time is linear, memory's a stranger, history is for fools,
Man is a tool in the hands of the Great God Almighty."
And they gave him command
of a nuclear submarine
and sent him back
in search of the Garden of Eden.

/Roger Waters

He's a prophet.


Also, a profit: Link

/Saw The Wall in Chicago this year. Best. Concert. Ever.
 
2012-12-07 09:16:43 PM

Indubitably: Skirl Hutsenreiter: cptjeff: Skirl Hutsenreiter: Summercat: Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.

I loved Hemmingway as a teen. Still do, though I don't read much of him often these days, I've got so much other stuff piled up and waiting. Hemmingway isn't a crappy writer just because his style isn't to your taste, and the fact that you don't like him doesn't mean that everybody in your age group hates him.

I enjoyed The Old Man and the Sea the first time I read it, middle school IIRC, and still enjoy rereading it every couple of years today. And I can't say I can remember hearing many people in classes where it was read complain, at least any more than the standard, "I hate reading" group.

On the other hand, I loathe Dickens. I have a friend who loves everything he's ever written. I love Victor Hugo, my brother couldn't make it more than 50 pages into The Hunchback of Notre Dame. All three of those authors are literary greats, and should be broadly read. Will you like every writing style? No. Is it worth being exposed to them? Hell yes. And if you don't like Hemmingway's style, you should be thankful your teacher didn't assign you For Whom the Bell Tolls. The Old Man and the Sea is at least short, though the high school you might have enjoyed the sex in For Whom the Bell Tolls.

We had The Sun Also Rises in high school. It was another one that didn't particularly resonate with the class at an all girls school, but I didn't find it as simplistic and monotonous as The Old Man and the Sea.

Willa Cather was another one where the teacher's choice did not line up with the author's best work IMHO. We did My Antonia, and I got ti ...

I think you suck as a teacher at your school apparently?

Please.

Quit insulting our collective intelligence, please.

To engage


What?
 
2012-12-07 09:20:12 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: Indubitably: Skirl Hutsenreiter: cptjeff: Skirl Hutsenreiter: Summercat: Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.

I loved Hemmingway as a teen. Still do, though I don't read much of him often these days, I've got so much other stuff piled up and waiting. Hemmingway isn't a crappy writer just because his style isn't to your taste, and the fact that you don't like him doesn't mean that everybody in your age group hates him.

I enjoyed The Old Man and the Sea the first time I read it, middle school IIRC, and still enjoy rereading it every couple of years today. And I can't say I can remember hearing many people in classes where it was read complain, at least any more than the standard, "I hate reading" group.

On the other hand, I loathe Dickens. I have a friend who loves everything he's ever written. I love Victor Hugo, my brother couldn't make it more than 50 pages into The Hunchback of Notre Dame. All three of those authors are literary greats, and should be broadly read. Will you like every writing style? No. Is it worth being exposed to them? Hell yes. And if you don't like Hemmingway's style, you should be thankful your teacher didn't assign you For Whom the Bell Tolls. The Old Man and the Sea is at least short, though the high school you might have enjoyed the sex in For Whom the Bell Tolls.

We had The Sun Also Rises in high school. It was another one that didn't particularly resonate with the class at an all girls school, but I didn't find it as simplistic and monotonous as The Old Man and the Sea.

Willa Cather was another one where the teacher's choice did not line up with the author's best work IMHO ...

To teach

 
2012-12-07 09:21:06 PM

AssAsInAssassin: djkutch: AssAsInAssassin: Is it any wonder that the monkey's confused?
He said "Mama, Mama, the presiden'ts a fool.
Why do I have to keep reading these technical manuals?"
And the joint chiefs of staff and the brokers on Wall Street said
"Don't make us laugh, you're a smart kid
Time is linear, memory's a stranger, history is for fools,
Man is a tool in the hands of the Great God Almighty."
And they gave him command
of a nuclear submarine
and sent him back
in search of the Garden of Eden.

/Roger Waters

He's a prophet.

Also, a profit: Link

/Saw The Wall in Chicago this year. Best. Concert. Ever.


Agreed. Saw The Wall and Amused to Death/Dark Side of the Moon in PHX. Both epic.
 
2012-12-07 09:21:43 PM

IronMyno: Indubitably: Indubitably: Skirl Hutsenreiter: Summercat: Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.

Try his travel pieces and think.

"How can I make history come to light for my students? Is it the text? Or is it me? Or both?"

Whenever I hear about a book that didn't work in a class, I hear about a teacher more...

I dunno, I had an English Lit teacher that i would have sold my soul to have as a lover and even she couldn't make "Ethan Frome" tolerable.

// that was a terrible story.. well written but awfull none-the less


It is a terrible story, but I guess I've always been susceptible to terrible stories. That was one of my favorite books we read in school.
 
2012-12-07 09:23:29 PM

Etchy333: There was once this guy that wasted his time in calligraphy class in college. He wasn't even going to the school that was teaching the class, he just wanted to learn a dying art. Can you imagine that, calligraphy? Long story short, he was a miserable failure his whole life and never did anything worthwhile, except be one of the founders of Apple computers.


What's the parallel? People should be able to go someplace that's not their school to pursue personal interests? Sure, agree.
 
2012-12-07 09:27:20 PM
They can always read the Pokemon versions.

i255.photobucket.com

boourns.cjb.net

i.imgur.com

www.videogamedj.com

images.geeknative.com.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2012-12-07 09:27:21 PM

James F. Campbell: Ishidan: There's a reason your profile says "I get paid to go to school" instead of "I get paid to work", I suppose. However, most people won't and can't be like you. They need to be EMPLOYABLE.

What am I? I'm employed. You?

Well, I don't have to work because I get paid to go to school. And I get paid to go to school because I'm good at what I do. Listening to your sad sack story now, it's no surprise you look down your nose at me and at literature in general. You pretty much have to in order to feel like you're worth anything. You bitter, pathetic man.


Yeah...I used to love literature, actually. Used to be the bookworm, the reader, the one who could and did read and walk at the same time.
Fact of the matter is, you know what it is to be an ivory tower intellectual. I know what the job market wants out of line workers.
 
2012-12-07 09:28:43 PM

James F. Campbell: Ishidan: There's a reason your profile says "I get paid to go to school" instead of "I get paid to work", I suppose. However, most people won't and can't be like you. They need to be EMPLOYABLE.

What am I? I'm employed. You?

Well, I don't have to work because I get paid to go to school. And I get paid to go to school because I'm good at what I do. Listening to your sad sack story now, it's no surprise you look down your nose at me and at literature in general. You pretty much have to in order to feel like you're worth anything. You bitter, pathetic man.


Can you be more vague? I can't tell if you've got a grant or you get paid to mop the floors after-hours. Both are "getting paid to go to school," in the literal sense. So, is this a scholarship where they're paying to better their reputation, a grant where they're paying for your findings, some sort of secret-shopper-like program where they're paying you for critiques, the government in the hopes you'll be useful to the economy, or are you actually getting paid for clean floors?

Because I unequivocally guarantee you that no one is paying you to go to school for the sole purpose of you expanding your horizons.
 
2012-12-07 09:28:51 PM

djkutch: AssAsInAssassin: djkutch: AssAsInAssassin: Is it any wonder that the monkey's confused?
He said "Mama, Mama, the presiden'ts a fool.
Why do I have to keep reading these technical manuals?"
And the joint chiefs of staff and the brokers on Wall Street said
"Don't make us laugh, you're a smart kid
Time is linear, memory's a stranger, history is for fools,
Man is a tool in the hands of the Great God Almighty."
And they gave him command
of a nuclear submarine
and sent him back
in search of the Garden of Eden.

/Roger Waters

He's a prophet.

Also, a profit: Link

/Saw The Wall in Chicago this year. Best. Concert. Ever.

Agreed. Saw The Wall and Amused to Death/Dark Side of the Moon in PHX. Both epic.


Saw the DSOM tour in 2006, Radio KAOS in 1987, Floyd twice in '87.

There was never an Amused To Death tour. He only played selections from it.

/FWIW.
 
2012-12-07 09:30:04 PM

Keizer_Ghidorah: boourns.cjb.net


I tried reading the Oddishey. Kept putting me to sleep.
 
2012-12-07 09:35:16 PM
I graduated HS in the mid 90's and I was never required to read these books, matter of fact I don't remember any required reading in HS, but perhaps I missed those because I was taking AP Physics and Earth Science classes.
 
2012-12-07 09:35:53 PM

Ishidan: James F. Campbell: Ishidan: There's a reason your profile says "I get paid to go to school" instead of "I get paid to work", I suppose. However, most people won't and can't be like you. They need to be EMPLOYABLE.

What am I? I'm employed. You?

Well, I don't have to work because I get paid to go to school. And I get paid to go to school because I'm good at what I do. Listening to your sad sack story now, it's no surprise you look down your nose at me and at literature in general. You pretty much have to in order to feel like you're worth anything. You bitter, pathetic man.

Yeah...I used to love literature, actually. Used to be the bookworm, the reader, the one who could and did read and walk at the same time.
Fact of the matter is, you know what it is to be an ivory tower intellectual. I know what the job market wants out of line workers.


He's a special little snowflake. You should be happy to support him so you can hear more of his wisdom on Fark.
 
2012-12-07 09:36:59 PM

dennysgod: I graduated HS in the mid 90's and I was never required to read these books, matter of fact I don't remember any required reading in HS, but perhaps I missed those because I was taking AP Physics and Earth Science classes.


They didn't require you to take any English classes?
 
2012-12-07 09:37:58 PM

Ishidan: Yeah...I used to love literature, actually. Used to be the bookworm, the reader, the one who could and did read and walk at the same time.
Fact of the matter is, you know what it is to be an ivory tower intellectual. I know what the job market wants out of line workers.


Man who used to like X couldn't hack it doing X for a living, so he ended up in a dead-end job that he hates with every fiber of his being. Now he hates X and anyone associated with X and wants to see X destroyed. Your life is a bad novel. Funny.

Well, try not to kill any of your co-workers (unless they really deserve it) when your shiatty job eventually snaps your mind in half like a dry twig.
 
2012-12-07 09:38:48 PM
Indubitably

Wow, reading comprehension problems abound. You seem to think I teach English. Just so you know, the closest I've come is college Physics.
 
2012-12-07 09:39:35 PM

ProfessorOhki: Keizer_Ghidorah: boourns.cjb.net

I tried reading the Oddishey. Kept putting me to sleep.


At least it didn't use Stun Spore or Poison Powder.
 
2012-12-07 09:40:37 PM
I truly loved Catcher in the Rye. But that was 41 years ago. Since FARK is so widely criticizing Hemingway, I will accept criticism of CITR, but only if it was from someone who read CITR in high school. If you read it at college age, duh no wonder you hated it.

That said, the real stinkers are The Crucible and the Great Gatsby.

Also, To Kill a Mockingbird is the greatest and should be read.
 
2012-12-07 09:41:15 PM

James F. Campbell: Ishidan: Yeah...I used to love literature, actually. Used to be the bookworm, the reader, the one who could and did read and walk at the same time.
Fact of the matter is, you know what it is to be an ivory tower intellectual. I know what the job market wants out of line workers.

Man who used to like X couldn't hack it doing X for a living, so he ended up in a dead-end job that he hates with every fiber of his being. Now he hates X and anyone associated with X and wants to see X destroyed. Your life is a bad novel. Funny.

Well, try not to kill any of your co-workers (unless they really deserve it) when your shiatty job eventually snaps your mind in half like a dry twig.


See. This is the kind of wisdom spewed on Fark that is well worth your tax dollars.
 
2012-12-07 09:41:58 PM

AssAsInAssassin: djkutch: AssAsInAssassin: djkutch: AssAsInAssassin: Is it any wonder that the monkey's confused?
He said "Mama, Mama, the presiden'ts a fool.
Why do I have to keep reading these technical manuals?"
And the joint chiefs of staff and the brokers on Wall Street said
"Don't make us laugh, you're a smart kid
Time is linear, memory's a stranger, history is for fools,
Man is a tool in the hands of the Great God Almighty."
And they gave him command
of a nuclear submarine
and sent him back
in search of the Garden of Eden.

/Roger Waters

He's a prophet.

Also, a profit: Link

/Saw The Wall in Chicago this year. Best. Concert. Ever.

Agreed. Saw The Wall and Amused to Death/Dark Side of the Moon in PHX. Both epic.

Saw the DSOM tour in 2006, Radio KAOS in 1987, Floyd twice in '87.

There was never an Amused To Death tour. He only played selections from it.

/FWIW.


He a good chunk of it the first half of the show if I recall correctly. Drugs were involved.

He likes Phoenix and treats them right.
 
2012-12-07 09:42:53 PM
As I read this thread, I absentmindedly thought of "Brave New World", and I was pleased to see that it came up. Since it was on the junior high school reading list, you could say I was "forced" to read it, but I'm glad I did. It was one of those stories that really made an impression on me. I never cared much for "Catcher in the Rye", but I didn't hate it either. I loved "Flowers for Algernon", and for a time thought "A Clockwork Orange" was the best book ever written. While I sat in college prep courses, my best friend was in the tech program learning to weld, and sometimes we'd meet between classes in the hallway near the home ec classrooms, where they had ovens and made (sometimes) yummy smelling stuff.

My point is that I could have taken auto shop or drafting or literature appreciation or how to manage a household. (Because I'm dated, this was WAY before the internet). If I remember correctly, by the time we got to jr high, the (good) teachers were very good at steering students toward curricula that best suited their aptitude.

/there will always be alphas and gammas
//unlike the story, we don't need to create them; they're already here
///that conclusion can be arrived at either empirically or philosophically
 
2012-12-07 09:43:17 PM

Kevin72: I truly loved Catcher in the Rye. But that was 41 years ago. Since FARK is so widely criticizing Hemingway, I will accept criticism of CITR, but only if it was from someone who read CITR in high school. If you read it at college age, duh no wonder you hated it.

That said, the real stinkers are The Crucible and the Great Gatsby.

Also, To Kill a Mockingbird is the greatest and should be read.


I'd suggest The Tin Drum, but that might cause people in other circles to get their panties in a bunch.
 
2012-12-07 09:43:44 PM

Lionel Mandrake: FlyingLizardOfDoom: Catcher in the Rye was a stupid book.

Grand_Moff_Joseph: Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book

Matthew 7:6


images.t-nation.com
 
2012-12-07 09:43:54 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: willyfreddy: I have less of a problem with this point, in relation to Shakespeare specifically (let the Drama kids read him). However, Catcher in the Rye and To Kill A Mockingbird are NOT Shakespeare. And I would NOT agree that replacing them with Invasive Plant Inventory is a good idea.

Except Shakespeare still features prominently, and no one who writes these guidelines is suggesting replacing To Kill a Mockingbird (still explicitly recommended in grades 9-10 English classrooms) with the Invasive Plant Inventory (recommended for grades 6-8 SCIENCE classrooms).


Oh. Well, if that's true then two things should happen: 1) You should email them to correct their article. 2) I should calm down.
 
2012-12-07 09:44:56 PM

James F. Campbell: Well, I don't have to work.


also, when you say you "don't have to work", regardless of further context, you just proved that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, as you have no experience in the field under discussion.

You have never had to supervise employees that got in trouble because they "thought" something which turned into a disaster because they hackjobbed a solution that had a better solution that would have been clear with more technical training.

You have never had to deal in the majority of the nonprofessional work that exists in the real world, which is repetitive and rule-based. Your "education" teaches you how to "think", but not how to DO.

You have, quite frankly, never worked. Other than political science, I am still stumped as to what exactly it is you do-and as I said before, they can't all be political commentators.
 
2012-12-07 09:45:52 PM

Jixa: My eldest is in 9th grade this year and his reading list for English class is pathetic. "The Hunger Games" is the required reading for his first semester. The farking Hunger Games!? The rest of the list is pretty pathetic. They're going to read excerpts, excerpts of Homer's Odyssey! No Grapes of Wrath, no Catcher in the Rye, no To Kill a Mockingbird, no Steinbeck, no Edgar Allen Poe, no Dickens. They are, at least reading "Romeo and Juliet". I guess it's still a staple of 9th grade English. I foresee a future of uneducated, illiterate boobs.

/I feel old now
//my lawn, etc.


First off as a series I'll say that the hunger games was a great set of books and there are a lot of things in there that you can teach to. Just because it's new and popular doesn't, on its own, make it bad. And if it bothers you so much that your kids aren't reading To Kill a Mockingbird well then as a parent why don't you read it with them.
Isn't that what Aticus did with Scout?
 
2012-12-07 09:47:21 PM

Ishidan: James F. Campbell: Well, I don't have to work.

also, when you say you "don't have to work", regardless of further context, you just proved that you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about, as you have no experience in the field under discussion.

You have never had to supervise employees that got in trouble because they "thought" something which turned into a disaster because they hackjobbed a solution that had a better solution that would have been clear with more technical training.

You have never had to deal in the majority of the nonprofessional work that exists in the real world, which is repetitive and rule-based. Your "education" teaches you how to "think", but not how to DO.

You have, quite frankly, never worked. Other than political science, I am still stumped as to what exactly it is you do-and as I said before, they can't all be political commentators.


I think he is a paid lab monkey.
 
2012-12-07 09:48:00 PM

jj325: FlyingLizardOfDoom: Catcher in the Rye was a stupid book.

Agreed. Should be replaced by this

[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x340]

Most popular book in my high school


chanarchive.org
 
2012-12-07 09:49:22 PM
Putting kids to sleep , your doing it right.
 
2012-12-07 09:51:26 PM
If you think children's education is solely the responsibility of the public school system you should not have or raise children.
 
2012-12-07 09:51:27 PM
A few more Pokemon literary classics.

chanarchive.org

chanarchive.org

chanarchive.org

chanarchive.org

chanarchive.org
 
2012-12-07 09:52:06 PM
Well, it seems I've triggered a real dogpiling on James F. Campbell.
Fun as it is, I think I'll go get dinner now.

I'll be sure to ask the employed people that I meet while doing so--like the cook, the waiter, the bartender, and the guy driving the reefer truck bringing in the supplies--how they got their jobs.

I'll bet not a single one will say "They were impressed by my knowledge of classical American literature".
 
2012-12-07 09:52:07 PM
Yes, let's stop teaching children that narrators cannot always be trusted and that institutional racism can make otherwise decent people do horrible things, and stick to teaching them how to create spreadsheets and put up drywall. What could possibly go wrong?

Forget aesthetics and higher culture and all that. Even from a strictly utilitarian perspective, this is a really bad idea.
 
2012-12-07 09:55:38 PM

Ishidan: Well, it seems I've triggered a real dogpiling on James F. Campbell.
Fun as it is, I think I'll go get dinner now.

I'll be sure to ask the employed people that I meet while doing so--like the cook, the waiter, the bartender, and the guy driving the reefer truck bringing in the supplies--how they got their jobs.

I'll bet not a single one will say "They were impressed by my knowledge of classical American literature".


Odd that you think knowledge's purpose is to impress others. Says a lot about you.
 
2012-12-07 09:59:50 PM

Keizer_Ghidorah: A few more Pokemon literary classics.

[chanarchive.org image 281x475]

[chanarchive.org image 510x680]

[chanarchive.org image 322x475]

[chanarchive.org image 484x624]

[chanarchive.org image 339x475]


I feel terrible. I know I shouldn't find them funny, but I can't stop chuckling. The Great Ghastly... heh. Then again, there already is a Great Ghastly on Fark.
 
2012-12-07 10:00:52 PM

James F. Campbell:
Man who used to like X fiction couldn't hack it doing X being in a fictional world for a living, so he ended up in a dead-end ordinary physical job that he hates with every fiber of his being is having difficulties with, having been surrounded by an education overfilled with fiction. Now he hates X and anyone associated with X and wants to see X destroyed has learned a bitter lesson, and wants to prevent others from wasting their time the way he did. Your life is a bad novel. Funny.

Well, try not to kill any of your co-workers (unless they really deserve it) when your shiatty job eventually snaps your mind in half like a dry twig.

 

Left the last part unstruck because really, that's already happened. So now I'm "normal".
 
2012-12-07 10:01:11 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: Indubitably

Wow, reading comprehension problems abound. You seem to think I teach English. Just so you know, the closest I've come is college Physics.


NSS?
 
2012-12-07 10:01:34 PM

Ishidan: Well, it seems I've triggered a real dogpiling on James F. Campbell.
Fun as it is, I think I'll go get dinner now.

I'll be sure to ask the employed people that I meet while doing so--like the cook, the waiter, the bartender, and the guy driving the reefer truck bringing in the supplies--how they got their jobs.

I'll bet not a single one will say "They were impressed by my knowledge of classical American literature".


Not taking that bet. There's some weird bars out there:
web-images.chacha.com

/hot
 
2012-12-07 10:01:39 PM

Skirl Hutsenreiter: I don't know why anyone uses that piece of crap. Prejudiced me against Hemingway for years. After some more exposure, now I actually quite like Hemingway's short fiction. Still haven't found a novel of his that I'm really a fan of.

\I don't know why teachers seem surprised when modern children don't relate to postwar literature.


High school English teacher here,

For the most part, teachers aren't surprised by this. Those who are surprised are the types who actually wish to teach college, but don't want to do another five or six years of school. Personally, I'd like to see much more contemporary literature introduced into the curriculum, but school systems do not want to stray away from what has been "proven" to work. It's difficult for me to explain to my kids why they should have to read Romeo and Juliet, the story of a horny 17 year old who kills himself after he thinks his four-day, 13 year-old slam piece has killed herself. To me, telling kids that a four day romance ending in suicide is the greatest love story in literature sends a very confusing message.

There is value in teaching literature with difficult vocabulary and syntax, but I think we could find a better, more relevant way to do it.


Oh, and check out The Sun Also Rises. It's the best love story ever written about a man who's dick was blown off during battle. I think people miss that part.
 
2012-12-07 10:02:07 PM

Ishidan: Well, it seems I've triggered a real dogpiling on James F. Campbell.
Fun as it is, I think I'll go get dinner now.

I'll be sure to ask the employed people that I meet while doing so--like the cook, the waiter, the bartender, and the guy driving the reefer truck bringing in the supplies--how they got their jobs.

I'll bet not a single one will say "They were impressed by my knowledge of classical American literature".


Yeah, it's not like you can learn anything from it, right?

Dipshiat.
 
2012-12-07 10:05:10 PM

James F. Campbell: Odd that you think knowledge's purpose is to impress others. Says a lot about you.


Ah so, and what is its purpose, then? The grand expansion of the self?
 
2012-12-07 10:07:36 PM

Ishidan: James F. Campbell: Odd that you think knowledge's purpose is to impress others. Says a lot about you.

Ah so, and what is its purpose, then? The grand expansion of the self?


He's one of those people who gets paid to take experimental drugs, and things like that. He's good at taking drugs.
 
2012-12-07 10:07:46 PM
And in celebration of Peter Jackson's "the Hobbit":

chanarchive.org

chanarchive.org

chanarchive.org

chanarchive.org
 
2012-12-07 10:07:55 PM
To bar
 
2012-12-07 10:09:36 PM

dontbreakthebend: It's difficult for me to explain to my kids why they should have to read Romeo and Juliet, the story of a horny 17 year old who kills himself after he thinks his four-day, 13 year-old slam piece has killed herself. To me, telling kids that a four day romance ending in suicide is the greatest love story in literature sends a very confusing message.


HAHAHAHA
How about Chaucer?
Yo, the Miller's Tale is HILARIOUS!
 
2012-12-07 10:14:20 PM

Ishidan: dontbreakthebend: It's difficult for me to explain to my kids why they should have to read Romeo and Juliet, the story of a horny 17 year old who kills himself after he thinks his four-day, 13 year-old slam piece has killed herself. To me, telling kids that a four day romance ending in suicide is the greatest love story in literature sends a very confusing message.

HAHAHAHA
How about Chaucer?
Yo, the Miller's Tale is HILARIOUS!


I don't think even farts will motivate kids to get through Chaucer
 
2012-12-07 10:22:08 PM

ProfessorOhki: Ishidan: Well, it seems I've triggered a real dogpiling on James F. Campbell.
Fun as it is, I think I'll go get dinner now.

I'll be sure to ask the employed people that I meet while doing so--like the cook, the waiter, the bartender, and the guy driving the reefer truck bringing in the supplies--how they got their jobs.

I'll bet not a single one will say "They were impressed by my knowledge of classical American literature".

Not taking that bet. There's some weird bars out there:
[web-images.chacha.com image 600x400]

/hot


I MUST KNOW WHERE THIS IS.
 
2012-12-07 10:25:04 PM
Not a literary piece, but I found it hilarious.

resource.mmgn.com
 
2012-12-07 10:26:06 PM
Good. I've always said there's enough shiat to write about in the real world that we don't need fiction.

Fiction=1980's sitcoms. They wrap their their agenda in a nice little bow,and spit out some moral lesson.

And don't get me started on the books that use character trait descriptive adjectives.
 
2012-12-07 10:32:54 PM

dontbreakthebend: Oh, and check out The Sun Also Rises. It's the best love story ever written about a man who's dick was blown off during battle. I think people miss that part.


It took a long time to get it in our class. But like I said, we were an all-girls school, and so didn't think as much about dicks as boys our age.* That was the same poor teacher who, trying to get us to realize Long Island was meant to be a phallic symbol, had to ask us to think about why Fitzgerald so specifically described the geography of the island, with West Egg and East Egg. Several times.

It must've been awkward for him.


*CSS: I taught at a kid's summer camp at our brother school. The camp used a freshman Chemistry classroom, so one of the first tasks before camp started was painting over all the obscene graffiti on the desks. We painted over hundreds of dicks in this one tiny classroom. As someone who hadn't shared a classroom with boys since puberty, it was totally mystifying. I mean, you don't see many girls out there drawing vulvas over and over again, except for Georgia O'Keefe.
 
2012-12-07 10:39:17 PM
Usually the Torygraph tries to avoid such idiotic tabloid crap. They didn't even pretend to offer a source.
 
2012-12-07 10:43:55 PM

muck4doo: Kevin72: I truly loved Catcher in the Rye. But that was 41 years ago. Since FARK is so widely criticizing Hemingway, I will accept criticism of CITR, but only if it was from someone who read CITR in high school. If you read it at college age, duh no wonder you hated it.

That said, the real stinkers are The Crucible and the Great Gatsby.

Also, To Kill a Mockingbird is the greatest and should be read.

I'd suggest The Tin Drum, but that might cause people in other circles to get their panties in a bunch.


Severed fingers? Nude male modeling? Deaths and stepsons marrying a relative or whatever? It's the most convoluted plot summary I've ever read. Good luck with getting the teachers on board, only a rare high school kid would stand it.
 
2012-12-07 10:44:18 PM
Ah, I see that this is the derp dujour for the day. yes I saw this crap on Facebook. First, it was proposed by the Bush NCLB program. Second it is not required but is a suggestion. The only problem I see with it is that this sort of thing should be in civics or some sort of Economics studies not in english.

But the derptards are throwing anything at the wall these days.
 
2012-12-07 10:46:06 PM
don't schools have enough trouble getting kids to read and understand "classic" fiction like catcher in the rye in the first place? trying to get them to willingly read technical educational manuals will be like pulling teeth. if they pushed that crap on me in high school i would have dropped out.
 
2012-12-07 10:47:19 PM

shortymac: FlyingLizardOfDoom: Catcher in the Rye was a stupid book.

Agreed, it's a whiny rich kid with problems book.


A whiny rich kid who apparently feels to need to argue with a hooker and her pimp over $5 vs $10 for an hour of nonsex.
 
2012-12-07 11:15:54 PM

dennysgod: I graduated HS in the mid 90's and I was never required to read these books, matter of fact I don't remember any required reading in HS, but perhaps I missed those because I was taking AP Physics and Earth Science classes.


There are also AP lit & history classes.

/I don't think an AP class can be legitimately named "earth sciences"
//maybe AP geology
 
2012-12-07 11:16:46 PM

Kevin72: muck4doo: Kevin72: I truly loved Catcher in the Rye. But that was 41 years ago. Since FARK is so widely criticizing Hemingway, I will accept criticism of CITR, but only if it was from someone who read CITR in high school. If you read it at college age, duh no wonder you hated it.

That said, the real stinkers are The Crucible and the Great Gatsby.

Also, To Kill a Mockingbird is the greatest and should be read.

I'd suggest The Tin Drum, but that might cause people in other circles to get their panties in a bunch.

Severed fingers? Nude male modeling? Deaths and stepsons marrying a relative or whatever? It's the most convoluted plot summary I've ever read. Good luck with getting the teachers on board, only a rare high school kid would stand it.


Like I said, it would get panties in a bunch.

/Realistically, it's college material.
 
2012-12-07 11:20:18 PM
Technical manual = nonfiction

But

Nonfiction != technical manual

I am glad all you critical thinkers picked up on that.
 
2012-12-07 11:25:26 PM

Ishidan: Well, it seems I've triggered a real dogpiling on James F. Campbell.
Fun as it is, I think I'll go get dinner now.

I'll be sure to ask the employed people that I meet while doing so--like the cook, the waiter, the bartender, and the guy driving the reefer truck bringing in the supplies--how they got their jobs.

I'll bet not a single one will say "They were impressed by my knowledge of classical American literature".


When I grow up I want to be a waiter / bartender / reefer truck driver

/great benefits & retirement plans in these lucrative careers
 
2012-12-07 11:30:18 PM

my alt's alt's alt: i read catcher in the rye in my early 20s and i despised it so much that i stapled it to a tree in the front yard and let the elements slowly eat it away.


Oh god that made me piddle my panties
 
2012-12-07 11:36:52 PM
Welcome to the fruits of centralized educational systems run by bureaucrats who apply a one-size-fits-all approach.

If you need to send your kid to a trade school thats cool, but I'm not letting you destroy my kids liberal arts education to do it, which is why my kid is going to continue reading Shakespeare and Hemingway.
 
2012-12-07 11:43:12 PM

James F. Campbell: Ishidan: more stupidity

Let me explain it to you simply and briefly: close reading. The practice and mastery of close reading allows you to detect manipulation. Focusing on the words, their meanings, their connotations. Why these words? What is really being said? That's a skill developed in literature classes, and it's part and parcel of critical thinking -- a skill that can undermine an authoritarian attempt at manipulation or control.

There's a reason newly-minted authoritarian states execute academics first instead of scientists, engineers, or ... whatever you are.


Yes. They don't execute engineers because they're valuable productive members of society while the academics are whiny tossers.

And no English teacher ever taught me close reading, I had to learn that on my own.

/BA in philosophy
//then had to get a real education in community college so I could get a job
///bitter yes
 
2012-12-07 11:45:53 PM

InitialCommentGuy: Wait... You mean that history classes may be forced to require primary source reading?

That science courses will teach actual science with citations, studies, and charts rather than just bulling your way through with 'and here are diagrams'?

Lit courses that include popular criticism, texts from the time regarding works, historical information?

Yes. Yes. A million times yes!


I learned more from the copy of Cosmos dad bought me than I did in all science classes up to grade 11.

So, this.
 
2012-12-07 11:48:08 PM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: James F. Campbell: Ishidan: more stupidity

Let me explain it to you simply and briefly: close reading. The practice and mastery of close reading allows you to detect manipulation. Focusing on the words, their meanings, their connotations. Why these words? What is really being said? That's a skill developed in literature classes, and it's part and parcel of critical thinking -- a skill that can undermine an authoritarian attempt at manipulation or control.

There's a reason newly-minted authoritarian states execute academics first instead of scientists, engineers, or ... whatever you are.

Yes. They don't execute engineers because they're valuable productive members of society while the academics are whiny tossers.

And no English teacher ever taught me close reading, I had to learn that on my own.

/BA in philosophy
//then had to get a real education in community college so I could get a job
///bitter yes


Nailed it. Congrats.
 
2012-12-07 11:52:15 PM

iaazathot: The only problem I see with it is that this sort of thing should be in civics or some sort of Economics studies not in english.


Guess what? It is. The recommendation of 70% nonfiction is for the entire curriculum, with the intent being that courses outside of English would asked to increase the amount of reading they require. English class would still largely teach literature. Stuff like Fredrick Douglass's autobiography would sneak into english class as non-fiction too, but they're teaching that one already. That's what we're talking about here, the hysteric crap about kids reading cookbooks is just that. It should be ignored.
 
2012-12-07 11:58:49 PM

Suckmaster Burstingfoam: James F. Campbell: Ishidan: more stupidity

Let me explain it to you simply and briefly: close reading. The practice and mastery of close reading allows you to detect manipulation. Focusing on the words, their meanings, their connotations. Why these words? What is really being said? That's a skill developed in literature classes, and it's part and parcel of critical thinking -- a skill that can undermine an authoritarian attempt at manipulation or control.

There's a reason newly-minted authoritarian states execute academics first instead of scientists, engineers, or ... whatever you are.

Yes. They don't execute engineers because they're valuable productive members of society while the academics are whiny tossers.

And no English teacher ever taught me close reading, I had to learn that on my own.

/BA in philosophy
//then had to get a real education in community college so I could get a job
///bitter yes


Perhaps you simply failed to look hard enough for a job that fit your skills.

/"real" job, "real" man, "real" fan, "real" music; anyone who feels the need to put "real" in front of something is a small petulant person
 
2012-12-08 12:05:30 AM
I see nothing wrong with the concept. It would be even better if they used books to learn skills since they won't always have a teacher and will have to learn on their own. I think 70% is high though. I think 40-50% is more appropriate.

As to why we under-perform educationally, here are my thoughts:

- We have poor math education. We teach kids early short cuts with shoddy logic so they fail to build the appropriate foundations for more difficult math. We also spend more time teaching procedure rather than understanding of math concepts.

- We have poor logic education over all, and that encompasses math, science, and the informational writing skills needed for both. Kids have to write science papers in school if they're going to get good at this. They also have to be able to read papers and learn from them.

- We teach scientific method all wrong. A hypothesis is supposed to be an informed guess -- but we teach kids to make an uninformed guess. They don't even know what an informed guess is. They aren't given the results of other times this experiment was run, or given texts to read that might allow them to infer the outcome of the experiment. If they aren't doing this, their science miseducation is perhaps more damaging to science than ignorance.

- Kids need to learn not just how to do research, but how to discern a credible source from a questionable one. This is an area in which a large percentage of adults are deficient.

- We waste lots of precious class time teaching kids history-based fairy tales, many of which were introduced as a form of propaganda during the Red Scare. The children are being fed negative information -- information that leaves them more ignorant than if they'd never heard it. And then we go on to teach a slightly less bs version of history in high school, and then again with even less bs in college. That's a lot of time we're wasting.
 
2012-12-08 12:07:22 AM

Animatronik: Welcome to the fruits of centralized educational systems run by bureaucrats who apply a one-size-fits-all approach.

If you need to send your kid to a trade school thats cool, but I'm not letting you destroy my kids liberal arts education to do it, which is why my kid is going to continue reading Shakespeare and Hemingway.


Here's an idea - get him a library card.
 
2012-12-08 12:14:41 AM

Keizer_Ghidorah: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: James F. Campbell: Ishidan: more stupidity

Let me explain it to you simply and briefly: close reading. The practice and mastery of close reading allows you to detect manipulation. Focusing on the words, their meanings, their connotations. Why these words? What is really being said? That's a skill developed in literature classes, and it's part and parcel of critical thinking -- a skill that can undermine an authoritarian attempt at manipulation or control.

There's a reason newly-minted authoritarian states execute academics first instead of scientists, engineers, or ... whatever you are.

Yes. They don't execute engineers because they're valuable productive members of society while the academics are whiny tossers.

And no English teacher ever taught me close reading, I had to learn that on my own.

/BA in philosophy
//then had to get a real education in community college so I could get a job
///bitter yes

Perhaps you simply failed to look hard enough for a job that fit your skills.

/"real" job, "real" man, "real" fan, "real" music; anyone who feels the need to put "real" in front of something is a small petulant person


Actually, you are right. I could easily have found a good high-paying job with a BA in philosophy. But the education turned me into a smelly hippie who didn't want to soil himself with a career in e.g. investment banking or sell-side analysis. Also academic institutions don't teach you how to look for a job - they figure your well-roundedness is enough.
 
2012-12-08 12:16:58 AM
Workers, dammit. We need more workers!

Not employees ... workers. Workers are replaceable parts. That whole employee thing is just too ... participatory.

/workers
 
2012-12-08 12:49:59 AM
Thank god, Catcher in the Rye was just awful. I have never hated a character as much as I hated Holden Caulfield. It's like he was designed for the reader to despise him, and yet we're still forced to read an entire book about the bastard.
 
2012-12-08 01:32:59 AM

muck4doo: Suckmaster Burstingfoam: James F. Campbell: Ishidan: more stupidity

Let me explain it to you simply and briefly: close reading. The practice and mastery of close reading allows you to detect manipulation. Focusing on the words, their meanings, their connotations. Why these words? What is really being said? That's a skill developed in literature classes, and it's part and parcel of critical thinking -- a skill that can undermine an authoritarian attempt at manipulation or control.

There's a reason newly-minted authoritarian states execute academics first instead of scientists, engineers, or ... whatever you are.

Yes. They don't execute engineers because they're valuable productive members of society while the academics are whiny tossers.

And no English teacher ever taught me close reading, I had to learn that on my own.

/BA in philosophy
//then had to get a real education in community college so I could get a job
///bitter yes

Nailed it. Congrats.


Seconded.
/BA in Communications
//ditto second slashie
 
2012-12-08 01:43:01 AM

dennysgod: I graduated HS in the mid 90's and I was never required to read these books, matter of fact I don't remember any required reading in HS, but perhaps I missed those because I was taking AP Physics and Earth Science classes.


But if somebody told you to read them ON TOP OF taking those AP courses, do you think you could have?

Just getting around to arguing with the guy upthread who said that my claim that, given a limited amount of time and resources, you can't do both well, but you could do both poorly was a false dichotomy.

Of course, being an AP student, you were above average: perhaps you could, but the "normals" could not.
 
2012-12-08 01:59:22 AM

dontbreakthebend:
High school English teacher here,

Oh, and check out The Sun Also Rises. It's the best love story ever written about a man who'sse dick was blown off during battle. I think people miss that part.


I don't believe that here on Fark, I managed to go to dinner, come back, and still nobody else had zapped you on that.
 
2012-12-08 02:39:36 AM

cptjeff: ProfessorOhki: Ishidan: Well, it seems I've triggered a real dogpiling on James F. Campbell.
Fun as it is, I think I'll go get dinner now.

I'll be sure to ask the employed people that I meet while doing so--like the cook, the waiter, the bartender, and the guy driving the reefer truck bringing in the supplies--how they got their jobs.

I'll bet not a single one will say "They were impressed by my knowledge of classical American literature".

Not taking that bet. There's some weird bars out there:
[web-images.chacha.com image 600x400]

/hot

I MUST KNOW WHERE THIS IS.


I believe this is it: Link But I just Google'd "library bar" images.
 
2012-12-08 05:22:51 AM

Ishidan: Oh, and check out The Sun Also Rises. It's the best love story ever written about a man who'sse dick was blown off during battle. I think people miss that part.


I know. I knew it as soon as I submitted it, but my TF settings don't preview comments. However, I can assure you while I Fark when I'm drunk, I only teach sober.
 
2012-12-08 06:44:21 AM

Summercat: ....wat.

Theyre finally getting rid of catcher i he wry? Nice

Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

/keep shakespear


See this? Our childrens is learning.
 
2012-12-08 07:00:35 AM

I_C_Weener: I say a new petition to the White House is in order.
 
Replace this new book list with Ender's Game, and The Hobbit, and The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo.


Add "Fight Club", and "M383C Linear Shaped Charge Demolition, Vol I and II" to that list.

As long as we're trying to shape our future, we may as well try to prevent obvious future problems. Right? The biggest threat to humanity is that - much like a yeast culture - humans won't stop breeding until they poison their environment and die off. So there, I've done my part.
 
2012-12-08 09:32:58 AM

doyner: FTFA: "A new school curriculum which will affect 46 out of 50 states will make it compulsory for at least 70 per cent of books studied to be non-fiction, in an effort to ready pupils for the workplace. "
And here is precicely the underlying problem in the US. We have changed our education system into a worker-bee development system.

ed·u·ca·tion/ˌɛdʒʊˈkeɪʃən/ Show Spelled [ej-oo-key-shuhn] noun
1. the act or process of imparting or acquiring general knowledge, developing the powers of reasoning and judgment, and generally of preparing oneself or others intellectually for mature life.

Education has nothing to do with being able to start working at Home Depot or Microsoft. Call me whackadoodle, but this is an indicator of our march from citizens to serfs.


And that's the point.
 
2012-12-08 02:51:39 PM

Grand_Moff_Joseph: dickfreckle: Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.

Um, what do you think the education systems of half the world have been doing for the last 20 years? Those folks may not even know who Shakespeare is, but they did a dang good job gutting our manufacturing and technology industries. 

Perhaps we need to fight back in the same manner to catch up. Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit


You know that coworker you have who spouts off the latest derp from Fox News, but can't put together a coherent sentence otherwise? Yeah, that'd be the coworker who should have failed their English classes.

Literature teaches you empathy, how to think things through, a bit of logic and rhetoric, and helps you define who and what you are. Without those skills, you have idiots who say it's the fault of abuse victims for making 'bad choices', that poor people can't be poor because they have refrigerators, and other such gems. It's great for making robots, but the point of schools (even if they don't function that way in reality) is to create functional adults, not robots.

/If someone wants to argue they need to revamp how literature is taught, I'm 100% behind that, we expect students to intuit far too much about texts. But cutting arts, literature, and other liberal arts is a bad, bad plan.
 
HBK
2012-12-08 03:07:09 PM

PsiChick: You know that coworker you have who spouts off the latest derp from Fox News, but can't put together a coherent sentence otherwise? Yeah, that'd be the coworker who should have failed their English classes.

Literature teaches you empathy, how to think things through, a bit of logic and rhetoric, and helps you define who and what you are. Without those skills, you have idiots who say it's the fault of abuse victims for making 'bad choices', that poor people can't be poor because they have refrigerators, and other such gems. It's great for making robots, but the point of schools (even if they don't function that way in reality) is to create functional adults, not robots.

/If someone wants to argue they need to revamp how literature is taught, I'm 100% behind that, we expect students to intuit far too much about texts. But cutting arts, literature, and other liberal arts is a bad, bad plan.


Empathy is an important thing for a barista to have. Then she/he understands why I'm pissed that it takes five minutes to pour a goddamned coffee.
 
2012-12-08 03:22:25 PM

HBK: Empathy is an important thing for a barista to have. Then she/he understands why I'm pissed that it takes five minutes to pour a goddamned coffee.


Lyme disease patients being turned into living pawns because doctors want to have a pissing match over whether or not the disease is 'real', rape and abuse victims being blamed for the attacks, an entire political party trying to screw over poor people...

Yup. Studying English will magically turn you into a barista and thus a subhuman.
 
2012-12-08 03:36:11 PM

Giblet: Summercat: ....wat.

Theyre finally getting rid of catcher i he wry? Nice

Can we get rid of Hemingway too? Old Man and the Sea was... Blesgh.

/keep shakespear

See this? Our childrens is learning.


Ah, sorry. Was on my phone, on the bus. Terrible typing skills on the phone, alas.

//Highschool was nearly 10 years ago for me
 
2012-12-08 09:12:52 PM
The guy had to keep checking the subway route because it was his responsibility and none of the other kids would. Can you imagine such self suffucuient kidsnow?
 
2012-12-08 11:00:52 PM

Nehllah: I'm enjoying that the people who are upset keep mentioning critical thinking.

So, you're telling me you learned critical thinking from reading fiction, but you took the article at face value, maybe only read the headline, and definitely didn't factcheck anything? Does that sound about right?


Outstanding. Farking burn.
 
2012-12-08 11:53:18 PM

Weaver95: "In the end, education has to be about more than simply ensuring that kids can get a job. Isn't it supposed to be about making well-rounded citizens?"

NOTHING in our culture encourages creativity. we despise artists, fear hackers and sideline anyone who steps outside the accepted norms. in some cases, that view is changing...but its moving very slowly, if at all.


True dat. Check the assholiness that pops up on this forum whenever a "student loan" thread pops up, and all the sh*t that art/music/anyone who's not a STEM major gets every single time. Here in this country a sizable chunk of the talentless moron contingent would rather have people "do art" in their "spare time", somehow creating all the things they see around them but are too stupid to notice while the artists shouldn't devote their lives to it in a way which would make them a living.
 
HBK
2012-12-09 01:21:58 AM

PsiChick: HBK: Empathy is an important thing for a barista to have. Then she/he understands why I'm pissed that it takes five minutes to pour a goddamned coffee.

Lyme disease patients being turned into living pawns because doctors want to have a pissing match over whether or not the disease is 'real', rape and abuse victims being blamed for the attacks, an entire political party trying to screw over poor people...

Yup. Studying English will magically turn you into a barista and thus a subhuman.


Well sure, high school-level morality and reasoning is important. My post was more geared to the worthlessness of liberal arts as a college major, and its resulting (lack of) job opportunities.

I was making light. I think kids should read books in high school, maybe more books will = less reality TV, that would be an improvement for humanity.
 
2012-12-09 01:36:16 AM

HBK: Well sure, high school-level morality and reasoning is important. My post was more geared to the worthlessness of liberal arts as a college major, and its resulting (lack of) job opportunities.

I was making light. I think kids should read books in high school, maybe more books will = less reality TV, that would be an improvement for humanity.


I'm a liberal arts major. Since virtually no one's going into the field of teaching, pretty much thanks to your viewpoint, I should be totally fine for getting a job, especially when I get my PhD. So...not sure if I should be annoyed or thank you. :p
 
HBK
2012-12-09 01:41:32 AM

PsiChick: HBK: Well sure, high school-level morality and reasoning is important. My post was more geared to the worthlessness of liberal arts as a college major, and its resulting (lack of) job opportunities.

I was making light. I think kids should read books in high school, maybe more books will = less reality TV, that would be an improvement for humanity.

I'm a liberal arts major. Since virtually no one's going into the field of teaching, pretty much thanks to your viewpoint, I should be totally fine for getting a job, especially when I get my PhD. So...not sure if I should be annoyed or thank you. :p


My roommate was a bright guy. English major, 3.8 GPA at a top university. He graduated six years ago and delivers pizzas now.
 
HBK
2012-12-09 01:46:52 AM
(College roomate, not current).

Also, I had another buddy with an MA in English. He taught English and Creative Writing at a large state university, with only a masters. He lost his job.

He mowed lawns for two years before he finally got work teaching high school.

It's possible you'll find a job teaching, and hey, more power to you. But you're not special and it's a shiatty job market. Pretty much the ONLY jobs out there right now for Liberal Arts are teaching, and there are a shiat load people who majored in "Liberal Arts," because math and science are hard, competing for those jobs.
 
2012-12-09 02:30:09 AM

PsiChick: HBK: Well sure, high school-level morality and reasoning is important. My post was more geared to the worthlessness of liberal arts as a college major, and its resulting (lack of) job opportunities.

I was making light. I think kids should read books in high school, maybe more books will = less reality TV, that would be an improvement for humanity.

I'm a liberal arts major. Since virtually no one's going into the field of teaching, pretty much thanks to your viewpoint, I should be totally fine for getting a job, especially when I get my PhD. So...not sure if I should be annoyed or thank you. :p


Haha are you serious?
 
HBK
2012-12-09 02:43:18 AM

redmid17: PsiChick: HBK: Well sure, high school-level morality and reasoning is important. My post was more geared to the worthlessness of liberal arts as a college major, and its resulting (lack of) job opportunities.

I was making light. I think kids should read books in high school, maybe more books will = less reality TV, that would be an improvement for humanity.

I'm a liberal arts major. Since virtually no one's going into the field of teaching, pretty much thanks to your viewpoint, I should be totally fine for getting a job, especially when I get my PhD. So...not sure if I should be annoyed or thank you. :p

Haha are you serious?


Shhh.... she's enjoying her naivete.
 
2012-12-09 01:58:45 PM

HBK: (College roomate, not current).

Also, I had another buddy with an MA in English. He taught English and Creative Writing at a large state university, with only a masters. He lost his job.

He mowed lawns for two years before he finally got work teaching high school.

It's possible you'll find a job teaching, and hey, more power to you. But you're not special and it's a shiatty job market. Pretty much the ONLY jobs out there right now for Liberal Arts are teaching, and there are a shiat load people who majored in "Liberal Arts," because math and science are hard, competing for those jobs.


First: According to actual teachers, there is a decline in people going into teaching. Your friends? Had a totally normal experience for anyone in any field. So no, you aren't special either, and you don't have One Truth, you have a ridiculous amount of talking points.

And since you think liberal arts are easy, I'm sure you'll be able to explain to me how the psychological understanding of intuition could lead to a true artificial intelligence and what that would imply in the typical science-fiction view of sentience in artificial intelligence. I theorized on this in my teen years, so surely you can handle it.


HBK: Shhh.... she's enjoying her naivete.


Or, you know, people who actually know what they're talking about explained this to me. One of the two.
 
2012-12-09 03:57:56 PM

PsiChick: Grand_Moff_Joseph: dickfreckle: Spitting out a kid who can only write as though it were a technical manual is not the way to fix things.

Um, what do you think the education systems of half the world have been doing for the last 20 years? Those folks may not even know who Shakespeare is, but they did a dang good job gutting our manufacturing and technology industries. 

Perhaps we need to fight back in the same manner to catch up. Then again, either way, Catcher in the Rye was a horrendously stupid book, so it's of no loss to the classroom, imo.

/puts on flame retardant suit

You know that coworker you have who spouts off the latest derp from Fox News, but can't put together a coherent sentence otherwise? Yeah, that'd be the coworker who should have failed their English classes.

Literature teaches you empathy, how to think things through, a bit of logic and rhetoric, and helps you define who and what you are. Without those skills, you have idiots who say it's the fault of abuse victims for making 'bad choices', that poor people can't be poor because they have refrigerators, and other such gems. It's great for making robots, but the point of schools (even if they don't function that way in reality) is to create functional adults, not robots.

/If someone wants to argue they need to revamp how literature is taught, I'm 100% behind that, we expect students to intuit far too much about texts. But cutting arts, literature, and other liberal arts is a bad, bad plan.


I wish you would come talk to our school board...
 
2012-12-09 05:08:16 PM

PsiChick: HBK: (College roomate, not current).

Also, I had another buddy with an MA in English. He taught English and Creative Writing at a large state university, with only a masters. He lost his job.

He mowed lawns for two years before he finally got work teaching high school.

It's possible you'll find a job teaching, and hey, more power to you. But you're not special and it's a shiatty job market. Pretty much the ONLY jobs out there right now for Liberal Arts are teaching, and there are a shiat load people who majored in "Liberal Arts," because math and science are hard, competing for those jobs.

First: According to actual teachers, there is a decline in people going into teaching. Your friends? Had a totally normal experience for anyone in any field. So no, you aren't special either, and you don't have One Truth, you have a ridiculous amount of talking points.

And since you think liberal arts are easy, I'm sure you'll be able to explain to me how the psychological understanding of intuition could lead to a true artificial intelligence and what that would imply in the typical science-fiction view of sentience in artificial intelligence. I theorized on this in my teen years, so surely you can handle it.


HBK: Shhh.... she's enjoying her naivete.

Or, you know, people who actually know what they're talking about explained this to me. One of the two.


I'll give you a hint: The person who knows what they're talking about is not you:

Link

What are the current trends in the teaching profession?

Response:
There were a projected 3.7 million full-time-equivalent (FTE) elementary and secondary school teachers in fall 2011. This number has risen 7 percent since 2001. The 2011 projected number of FTE teachers includes 3.3 million public school teachers and 0.4 million private school teachers.


"Figure H. Actual and middle alternative projected numbers for elementary and secondary teachers: Selected years, 1992-2017"

Link

nces.ed.gov
 
2012-12-09 05:29:22 PM

redmid17: PsiChick: HBK:

Or, you know, people who actually know what they're talking about explained this to me. One of the two.

I'll give you a hint: The person who knows what they're talking about is not you:

Link

What are the current trends in the teaching profession?

Response:
There were a projected 3.7 million full-time-equivalent (FTE) elementary and secondary school teachers in fall 2011. This number has risen 7 percent since 2001. The 2011 projected number of FTE teachers includes 3.3 million public school teachers and 0.4 million private school teachers.

"Figure H. Actual and middle alternative projected numbers for elementary and secondary teachers: Selected years, 1992-2017"

Link

[nces.ed.gov image 250x122]


1: Teaching for college != teaching in public school.

2: There are big numbers. You did not address whether the big numbers correlated to job growth in the sector. So let's look at another factor that would indicate the answer to that question: What's the unemployment rate?

"Of the 3,380,300 full-time and part-time public school teachers who were teaching during the 2007-08 school year, 84.5 percent remained at the same school ("stayers"), 7.6 percent moved to a different school ("movers"), and 8.0 percent left the profession ("leavers") during the following year. Among the 487,300 private school teachers who were teaching during the 2007-08 school year, 79.2 percent were stayers, 4.9 percent were movers, and 15.9 percent were leavers."

To translate: There's a lot of teachers numerically, but only 8 percent who can't stay in their jobs. Now, let's break down why:

"About 5.3 percent of public school teacher leavers left teaching in 2008-09 because their contract was not renewed, compared to 13.0 percent of private school teacher leavers."

So in other words, 18.3 percent of 8 percent of the sum total of teachers actually left because they had no other choice. That's hardly a field without any jobs whatsoever, that's a job that has a healthy growth rate.

In 2008, during a recession.

/Yeah, I have no worries at all.
//And you still need to think twice before badmouthing a profession to someone in it. I mean, really, am I badmouthing your job?
 
2012-12-09 05:35:15 PM

PsiChick: /Yeah, I have no worries at all.
//And you still need to think twice before badmouthing a profession to someone in it. I mean, really, am I badmouthing your job?


You're not a teacher. You're in college. You didn't specify university level teaching. The entire thread has been about elementary and secondary educations majors.

I'm also pretty sure you don't know what I do for a living. My point is that your assertion that people are not going into teaching is demonstrably false. I don't really give a shiat if the growth rate of the job market is good or bad. I also never badmouthed the teaching profession, so check your liberal arts reading comprehension level.
 
2012-12-09 05:58:53 PM

redmid17: PsiChick: /Yeah, I have no worries at all.
//And you still need to think twice before badmouthing a profession to someone in it. I mean, really, am I badmouthing your job?

You're not a teacher. You're in college. You didn't specify university level teaching. The entire thread has been about elementary and secondary educations majors.

I'm also pretty sure you don't know what I do for a living. My point is that your assertion that people are not going into teaching is demonstrably false. I don't really give a shiat if the growth rate of the job market is good or bad. I also never badmouthed the teaching profession, so check your liberal arts reading comprehension level.


Ah, apparently I wasn't clear enough. Adjusting for market growth, the relative number of people going into teaching is, from what I know, declining. The field reflects, if not directly that, certainly at least enough of a healthy growth market so I still would not need to be worried. Fair 'nuff about the college thing, though, I should have implied that.

And you seem to be missing the point. Once I said I was a liberal arts major, you...continued badmouthing the liberal arts majors by claiming people went into them 'because math and science is hard'. Again, I invite you to join in the discussion on the implications on artificial intelligence in science fiction implied by the psychological implications of intuition. It only involves a basic understanding of psych, so it shouldn't be hard or anything, right?
 
2012-12-09 06:05:06 PM

PsiChick: redmid17: PsiChick: /Yeah, I have no worries at all.
//And you still need to think twice before badmouthing a profession to someone in it. I mean, really, am I badmouthing your job?

You're not a teacher. You're in college. You didn't specify university level teaching. The entire thread has been about elementary and secondary educations majors.

I'm also pretty sure you don't know what I do for a living. My point is that your assertion that people are not going into teaching is demonstrably false. I don't really give a shiat if the growth rate of the job market is good or bad. I also never badmouthed the teaching profession, so check your liberal arts reading comprehension level.

Ah, apparently I wasn't clear enough. Adjusting for market growth, the relative number of people going into teaching is, from what I know, declining. The field reflects, if not directly that, certainly at least enough of a healthy growth market so I still would not need to be worried. Fair 'nuff about the college thing, though, I should have implied that.

And you seem to be missing the point. Once I said I was a liberal arts major, you...continued badmouthing the liberal arts majors by claiming people went into them 'because math and science is hard'. Again, I invite you to join in the discussion on the implications on artificial intelligence in science fiction implied by the psychological implications of intuition. It only involves a basic understanding of psych, so it shouldn't be hard or anything, right?


That was a different person. *I* have a liberal arts degree (German). I also took psych and a class on artificial intelligence in college (Informatics elective). I didn't find either particularly compelling and that must have been 5 or 6 years ago at this point, so I will pass on your rather arbitrary discussion of Sci Fi computers.
 
2012-12-09 06:26:32 PM

redmid17: That was a different person. *I* have a liberal arts degree (German). I also took psych and a class on artificial intelligence in college (Informatics elective). I didn't find either particularly compelling and that must have been 5 or 6 years ago at this point, so I will pass on your rather arbitrary discussion of Sci Fi computers.


...Welp, sorry about that, now I feel stupid. *makes note to self about checking usernames before being Cranky!PsiChick*
 
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