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(Washington Post)   1) Mint $2 trillion in platinum coins. 2) ???? 3) End the financial crisis   (washingtonpost.com) divider line 192
    More: Asinine, United States, Peterson Institute for International Economics, debt limit, debt crisis, gold reserves, Yale Law School, U.S. Mint  
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15874 clicks; posted to Main » on 07 Dec 2012 at 12:38 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-07 12:13:25 PM  
Ha! Imagine losing THAT in your couch.
 
2012-12-07 12:23:16 PM  
Maybe asinine. But an asinine problem requires an asinine solution. We have enough problems without adding arbitrary ones on top, like the invented debt ceiling and its subsequent biannual invented crisis.

Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would make a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve.

What's the actual physical process for moving the coins from the US Mint to the Federal Reserve? If they're stolen, does the US government just declare them worthless?
 
2012-12-07 12:31:48 PM  
The only thing that trumps trillion dollar platinum coins is the set of brass on the guy who tries to implement said strategy...
 
2012-12-07 12:36:18 PM  
Arbitrary problems have arbitrary solutions.
 
2012-12-07 12:40:32 PM  

Lumpmoose: Maybe asinine. But an asinine problem requires an asinine solution. We have enough problems without adding arbitrary ones on top, like the invented debt ceiling and its subsequent biannual invented crisis.

Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would make a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve.

What's the actual physical process for moving the coins from the US Mint to the Federal Reserve? If they're stolen, does the US government just declare them worthless?


They wold be fairly easy to prove stolen I imagine.

Pawnshop probably couldn't make change.
 
2012-12-07 12:40:56 PM  
Now if Obama really wanted to troll, he'd super glue it to the Capitol steps.
 
2012-12-07 12:41:39 PM  
By the headline, I thought they were literally going to mint 2 trillion in plat coins. I wasn't sure if there was even enough platinum on earth to do that.
 
2012-12-07 12:42:30 PM  
I was all set to ask if a trillion dollars worth of platinum even existed, then I saw the scheme was one of those worth-by-fiat things.

They should use rhodium. It's currently worth more per mole than the other precious metals.
 
2012-12-07 12:44:53 PM  
yeah, I'd get in line to loan money to the government that pulled that...
 
2012-12-07 12:45:14 PM  
"I like it," said Joseph Gagnon of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "There's nothing that's obviously economically problematic about it."

Must be the Peterson Institute for International Economics for the Mentally Challenged. What a total farkwit.
 
2012-12-07 12:45:38 PM  

Holocaust Agnostic: Lumpmoose: Maybe asinine. But an asinine problem requires an asinine solution. We have enough problems without adding arbitrary ones on top, like the invented debt ceiling and its subsequent biannual invented crisis.

Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would make a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve.

What's the actual physical process for moving the coins from the US Mint to the Federal Reserve? If they're stolen, does the US government just declare them worthless?

They wold be fairly easy to prove stolen I imagine.

Pawnshop probably couldn't make change.


Now, I want to help you out with this, but unfortunately, I just don't know enough about trillion dollar platinum coins to make a decision right now. Would you mind if I called a guy who's an expert in Numismatics?
 
2012-12-07 12:45:39 PM  
cache.ohinternet.com
 
2012-12-07 12:46:15 PM  

PirateKing: Now if Obama really wanted to troll, he'd super glue it to the Capitol steps.


I lol'd at that, thank you! I pictured all the derpy congresscritters trying desperately to pry the thing loose.
 
2012-12-07 12:46:48 PM  
Deposit 2 moon rocks into the Federal Reserve. They are considered a National Treasure and apparently priceless. That would make the debt ceiling unlimited. Problem solved, forever.
 
2012-12-07 12:48:20 PM  

FatherChaos: [cache.ohinternet.com image 442x334]


That's true too....the law also does not prohibit the Treasury from issueing currency in the form of underwear, stale pretzels, or many other materials.
 
2012-12-07 12:48:50 PM  

Bondith: I was all set to ask if a trillion dollars worth of platinum even existed, then I saw the scheme was one of those worth-by-fiat things.

They should use rhodium. It's currently worth more per mole than the other precious metals.


What would happen if you were to gather a mole(unit of measurement) of moles (the small furry critter) in one place?

Link
 
2012-12-07 12:49:03 PM  

Antimatter: By the headline, I thought they were literally going to mint 2 trillion in plat coins. I wasn't sure if there was even enough platinum on earth to do that.


*shakes tiny fist*

I shouldn't have wasted the time to go look up my Powerpoint presentation for the price per mole chart.
 
2012-12-07 12:49:05 PM  
Make two extra coins and send them to China and call it even.
 
2012-12-07 12:49:12 PM  

Tr0mBoNe: Arbitrary problems have arbitrary solutions.


In the past, the police had somehow gotten it into their heads that it was illegal to take photographs of anything, anywhere. Some said it was because of "copyright" some said it was because of "homeland security", but the result was the same: they'd make you delete the photographs.

One enterprising photographer came up with the idea of making a "photography license". It was similar to a library card, except that you added a photograph of your face in the top-left corner with glue or a laminator. When the cops stopped you for taking pictures, you could then respond, 'it's okay, I have a photography license', and show them it.

An imaginative solution to an imaginary problem.
 
2012-12-07 12:49:41 PM  
We should be doing this anyway. The law is pretty awesomely vague and cries out for hilarious abuse. As I read it, nothing is stopping Obama from minting a negative-$50 coin and slipping it into John Boehner's pocket.

Lumpmoose: But an asinine problem requires an asinine solution.


But seriously, that's exactly right. Obama will (hopefully) move heaven and earth to avoid doing this, because it basically puts a giant clown nose on the entire United States government, and he's not a member of the party that sees that as a good thing in the long run.

But if it comes right down to it... I notice the White House is preemptively rejecting idea that the Fourteenth Amendment gives the President unilateral authority to spend past the debt ceiling. I notice they're not preemptively rejecting this.
 
2012-12-07 12:50:31 PM  
Of all the Simpson's episodes that accurately commented on or predicted the future of our society, never in my wildest dreams did I think the trillion dollar bill episode would be one of them.

Don't worry America, I'm sure having a government that continually confuses reality with parody will have no long term consequences.
 
2012-12-07 12:50:59 PM  

Lumpmoose: Maybe asinine. But an asinine problem requires an asinine solution. We have enough problems without adding arbitrary ones on top, like the invented debt ceiling and its subsequent biannual invented crisis.

Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would make a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve.

What's the actual physical process for moving the coins from the US Mint to the Federal Reserve? If they're stolen, does the US government just declare them worthless?


Go ahead. Try to spend them.
 
2012-12-07 12:52:21 PM  
This is exactly why the GOP sucks. Government spending like a drunken sailor is the American way.
 
2012-12-07 12:52:38 PM  
Ctrl-F "debas"

*Not found*

Wow, no one yet rending their garments over currency debasement. Farkers, you sometimes impress.
 
2012-12-07 12:52:55 PM  
FTA: Thanks to an odd loophole in current law, the U.S. Treasury is technically allowed to mint as many coins made of platinum as it wants and can assign them whatever value it pleases.

Antimatter: By the headline, I thought they were literally going to mint 2 trillion in plat coins. I wasn't sure if there was even enough platinum on earth to do that.


Size doesn't matter, you just mint a coin with '1 Trillion' stamped onto it and declare it worth $1 trillion. Isn't fiat math great??
 
2012-12-07 12:53:12 PM  
In theory, this is much like having the central bank print money. But, says Gagnon, the U.S. government would simply be using the money to keep spending at existing levels, so it wouldn't create any extra inflation.

And this guy claims he's an economist?
 
2012-12-07 12:53:51 PM  
Why coins? Trillion dollar bills could at least have anti-counterfeiting measures in their design.

www.huydang.com
 
2012-12-07 12:54:29 PM  

Sticky Hands: yeah, I'd get in line to loan money to the government that pulled that...


Yeah, I'd much rather loan money to the government that will stop paying its debts once they reach an arbitrary amount.
 
2012-12-07 12:55:44 PM  
Can't they just delete everyone's debts that are just 0s and 1s on a pc somewhere and start from scratch?
 
2012-12-07 12:55:44 PM  

THX 1138: Why coins? Trillion dollar bills could at least have anti-counterfeiting measures in their design.

[www.huydang.com image 526x380]


There's only two. And we'll know where they are.
 
2012-12-07 12:56:23 PM  
I'm the first? really?

cdn.static.ovimg.com

/here trilli trilli trilli
 
2012-12-07 12:56:30 PM  
Well that pic I hotlinked lasted an entire 45 seconds. Sigh.
 
2012-12-07 12:57:47 PM  
i269.photobucket.com

Simpsons did it.
 
2012-12-07 12:58:11 PM  
Man, I hope they don't get it confused with a quarter when they go to buy a Clark bar from the vending machine, because talk about WHOOPSIE!
 
2012-12-07 12:58:15 PM  
Gold pressed latinum?
 
2012-12-07 12:58:21 PM  

Sim Tree: Tr0mBoNe: Arbitrary problems have arbitrary solutions.

In the past, the police had somehow gotten it into their heads that it was illegal to take photographs of anything, anywhere. Some said it was because of "copyright" some said it was because of "homeland security", but the result was the same: they'd make you delete the photographs.

One enterprising photographer came up with the idea of making a "photography license". It was similar to a library card, except that you added a photograph of your face in the top-left corner with glue or a laminator. When the cops stopped you for taking pictures, you could then respond, 'it's okay, I have a photography license', and show them it.

An imaginative solution to an imaginary problem.


craphound.com
 
2012-12-07 12:58:31 PM  

Red_Fox: I'm the first? really?

[cdn.static.ovimg.com image 400x300]

/here trilli trilli trilli


/Shakes fist
 
2012-12-07 12:59:03 PM  

THX 1138: Well that pic I hotlinked lasted an entire 45 seconds. Sigh.


It's still up for me, though I don't see how Canadian politics is germane to this discussion.
 
2012-12-07 12:59:07 PM  

semiotix: We should be doing this anyway. The law is pretty awesomely vague and cries out for hilarious abuse. As I read it, nothing is stopping Obama from minting a negative-$50 coin and slipping it into John Boehner's pocket.

Lumpmoose: But an asinine problem requires an asinine solution.

But seriously, that's exactly right. Obama will (hopefully) move heaven and earth to avoid doing this, because it basically puts a giant clown nose on the entire United States government, and he's not a member of the party that sees that as a good thing in the long run.

But if it comes right down to it... I notice the White House is preemptively rejecting idea that the Fourteenth Amendment gives the President unilateral authority to spend past the debt ceiling. I notice they're not preemptively rejecting this.


That is some funny shiat. Ever hear of the Dem Congressman who thought Guam would capsize?

Dems have done/said PLENTY of clown nose stuff over the years...
 
2012-12-07 12:59:10 PM  

hdhale: "I like it," said Joseph Gagnon of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "There's nothing that's obviously economically problematic about it."

Must be the Peterson Institute for International Economics for the Mentally Challenged. What a total farkwit.


What is he missing? It's not an inflation thing. For all you know, Obama has already deposited an eleventy-quintillion dollar coin at the Fed, but it doesn't affect the value of the dollar in your pocket until it's circulated. And Obama can't spend more money than Congress has already budgeted for in legislation that's already passed. 

So how is the coin option worse from an economic standpoint than what will probably happen, which is Boehner eventually giving up and allowing the debt ceiling to rise to accommodate the expenditures Congress has already authorized?
 
2012-12-07 12:59:50 PM  
pavlopoulos.files.wordpress.com

Minting your way out of trouble always ends well.
 
2012-12-07 01:00:48 PM  

Lumpmoose: What's the actual physical process for moving the coins from the US Mint to the Federal Reserve? If they're stolen, does the US government just declare them worthless?


Once the coins are created I would think they would be worth whatever they are listed at. But good luck turning into a bank for 10s and 20s. If they could just change the value of current currency (say that 5 times fast!) they could just say that quarters were now worth 5 bucks and we would pump billions into the economy and not need to print or mint a thing.

I would think that thief would be the best solution. Someone would steal the coins and have to lock them away somewhere forever. There for you have the money in the system but locked down. This is the same thing we get with the dollar coin push every couple of years. So the value of the dollar would decrease to the point that we could pay off the debt with piles of useless green backs.

The day these get made you better switch your ARM to a fixed.

"I like it," said Joseph Gagnon of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "There's nothing that's obviously economically problematic about it."

Has he not heard of inflation?!

Joseph Gagnon received a BA from Harvard University in 1981 and a PhD in economics from Stanford University in 1987.

I'd love to pick his brain on this topic.
 
2012-12-07 01:02:22 PM  
I'll sell the Treasury of of my $100,000,000 lead coins for a mere $5,000,000. It's a good deal.
 
2012-12-07 01:02:29 PM  
The real problem is government spending. Washington spends like a teenager who stole his parents' credit card.
 
2012-12-07 01:02:51 PM  

StrikitRich: Size doesn't matter, you just mint a coin with '1 Trillion' stamped onto it and declare it worth $1 trillion.


Why not? It worked so well for Germany when they tried something very similar to that between the world wars.
 
2012-12-07 01:03:56 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Lumpmoose: What's the actual physical process for moving the coins from the US Mint to the Federal Reserve? If they're stolen, does the US government just declare them worthless?

Once the coins are created I would think they would be worth whatever they are listed at. But good luck turning into a bank for 10s and 20s. If they could just change the value of current currency (say that 5 times fast!) they could just say that quarters were now worth 5 bucks and we would pump billions into the economy and not need to print or mint a thing.

I would think that thief would be the best solution. Someone would steal the coins and have to lock them away somewhere forever. There for you have the money in the system but locked down. This is the same thing we get with the dollar coin push every couple of years. So the value of the dollar would decrease to the point that we could pay off the debt with piles of useless green backs.

The day these get made you better switch your ARM to a fixed.

"I like it," said Joseph Gagnon of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "There's nothing that's obviously economically problematic about it."

Has he not heard of inflation?!

Joseph Gagnon received a BA from Harvard University in 1981 and a PhD in economics from Stanford University in 1987.

I'd love to pick his brain on this topic.


It really is inflation, just Gagnon style.
 
2012-12-07 01:03:59 PM  
s7.postimage.org
 
2012-12-07 01:04:02 PM  

Bondith: I was all set to ask if a trillion dollars worth of platinum even existed, then I saw the scheme was one of those worth-by-fiat things.

They should use rhodium. It's currently worth more per mole than the other precious metals.


Obama's trolling of congress would be better if the coins were made of plastic.
 
2012-12-07 01:05:15 PM  

Knight of the Woeful Countenance: Holocaust Agnostic: Lumpmoose: Maybe asinine. But an asinine problem requires an asinine solution. We have enough problems without adding arbitrary ones on top, like the invented debt ceiling and its subsequent biannual invented crisis.

Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would make a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve.

What's the actual physical process for moving the coins from the US Mint to the Federal Reserve? If they're stolen, does the US government just declare them worthless?

They wold be fairly easy to prove stolen I imagine.

Pawnshop probably couldn't make change.

Now, I want to help you out with this, but unfortunately, I just don't know enough about trillion dollar platinum coins to make a decision right now. Would you mind if I called a guy who's an expert in Numismatics?


I'll offer you $25 for it, that's as high as I can go.
 
2012-12-07 01:05:35 PM  

hdhale: "I like it," said Joseph Gagnon of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "There's nothing that's obviously economically problematic about it."

Must be the Peterson Institute for International Economics for the Mentally Challenged. What a total farkwit.


A genius like you should be able to explain to us the problems then. They are so blatant after all.
 
2012-12-07 01:05:53 PM  
s10.postimage.org
 
2012-12-07 01:06:02 PM  
I just bought two.

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-12-07 01:06:06 PM  
Coins? All we need is some new paper money:

2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-07 01:06:51 PM  
It would be worth it of Obama walked to the podium to announce the while casually flipping the coin. (toothpick optional)
 
2012-12-07 01:07:01 PM  
Two platinum coins? That sounds like the change we need.
 
2012-12-07 01:07:15 PM  

uncleacid: I just bought two.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 499x77]


Me too! Those Gold Clad Proofs will only increase in value! And such a deal!
 
2012-12-07 01:08:46 PM  

Truther: Dems have done/said PLENTY of clown nose stuff over the years...


Oh, no doubt. But come on. The GOP sales pitch these days is basically "government is fundamentally a bad thing, at best a necessary evil, so put us in charge of it and we'll make sure it behaves itself."

Whether or not you agree with that, it's the reason Congress' approval rating hovers around 10%. 80% of the Democrats polled are furious that it never does anything, and 100% of the Republicans polled are furious that it might.
 
2012-12-07 01:08:51 PM  

Kraftwerk Orange: Sim Tree: Tr0mBoNe: Arbitrary problems have arbitrary solutions.

In the past, the police had somehow gotten it into their heads that it was illegal to take photographs of anything, anywhere. Some said it was because of "copyright" some said it was because of "homeland security", but the result was the same: they'd make you delete the photographs.

One enterprising photographer came up with the idea of making a "photography license". It was similar to a library card, except that you added a photograph of your face in the top-left corner with glue or a laminator. When the cops stopped you for taking pictures, you could then respond, 'it's okay, I have a photography license', and show them it.

An imaginative solution to an imaginary problem.

[craphound.com image 500x341]


"Hussein", nice.

Making these coins would be worth it, if only to watch the wacky schemes the very stupid from, say, Oklahoma or Idaho would concoct to steal it, "Like what they saw in that Tom Cruise movie".
 
2012-12-07 01:09:20 PM  

Holocaust Agnostic: hdhale: "I like it," said Joseph Gagnon of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "There's nothing that's obviously economically problematic about it."

Must be the Peterson Institute for International Economics for the Mentally Challenged. What a total farkwit.

A genius like you should be able to explain to us the problems then. They are so blatant after all.


Inflation is the obvious problem. But gagnon goes on to try to address that by saying the fed could offset the inflation by other measures.
 
2012-12-07 01:09:51 PM  

Antimatter: By the headline, I thought they were literally going to mint 2 trillion in plat coins. I wasn't sure if there was even enough platinum on earth to do that.


what $2Trillion in Platinum coins my look like if the treasury says it is:
www.washingtonpost.com


Fiat money is fascinating thing, no?
 
2012-12-07 01:09:51 PM  
www.blogcdn.com

OK but just don't hire a courier to carry it to the US Treasury on foot, through dangerous territory. 

And yes, I volunteer for the job.
 
2012-12-07 01:10:28 PM  
Might as well argue about whether it would be worthwhile to fake up an Alien Invasion threat to justify massive military spending which would necessitate increasing the debt limit and act as a sort of stimulus package to boot.

It's about as likely.
 
2012-12-07 01:10:43 PM  
May as well make it 16 trillion each and really get a head of this whole thing and become the GREATEST. PRESIDENT. EVAR.
 
2012-12-07 01:10:56 PM  
i.imgur.com
 
2012-12-07 01:12:01 PM  
I'm just happy to see the federal government could solve the problem along the lines of what I've recommended for a long time: Under cover of darkness, and without telling anyone, a crew fires up the machinery at one of our paper-money-making plants and churns out a trillion or so dollars.
Those dollars go into circulation, everybody has more money, they can pay more for stuff - and tax revenue goes up.
The important thing is, the gov't CAN'T TELL anyone they did this, because otherwise people would just run around whining about "inflation," "wheelbarrows" and "Germany."

You're welcome.
 
2012-12-07 01:14:07 PM  

semiotix: . . .because it basically puts a giant clown nose on the entire United States government . . .


How do I know you've been out of town for a looooong time?
 
2012-12-07 01:14:47 PM  
i2.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-07 01:19:54 PM  

Grammatik Polizei: [pavlopoulos.files.wordpress.com image 410x412]

Minting your way out of trouble always ends well.


Well, it depends. We have a high Centralisation, as well as the National Bank idea, that usually gives a good deflation count. I think Geitner would count as a fairly decent (4 or 5) Master of Mint, and Obama is at LEAST a 7/7/7 Ruler.

We can take the inflation from minting.

/EU3.
 
2012-12-07 01:21:50 PM  
Knot meet sword.

It is odd that when Congress approves spending.......they don't actually approve spending.
 
2012-12-07 01:22:40 PM  

Huck And Molly Ziegler: I'm just happy to see the federal government could solve the problem along the lines of what I've recommended for a long time: Under cover of darkness, and without telling anyone, a crew fires up the machinery at one of our paper-money-making plants and churns out a trillion or so dollars.
Those dollars go into circulation, everybody has more money, they can pay more for stuff - and tax revenue goes up.
The important thing is, the gov't CAN'T TELL anyone they did this, because otherwise people would just run around whining about "inflation," "wheelbarrows" and "Germany."

You're welcome.


You've never studied macroeconomics have you? The government tried this stupid trick back in the lat 1970s and early 1980s in an attempt to end a recession. All it did was create double-digit inflation that took almost six years to get under control. The Fed must balance how much money is in circulation based on GDP to keep inflation in check.
 
2012-12-07 01:22:52 PM  
Grammatik Polizei
Minting your way out of trouble always ends well.

Not that this isn't an incredibly silly idea (why not just say they did it? why do there have to be physical objects created to make an accounting trick 'real'?), but I think the idea is that the money created wouldn't enter circulation. Or something. It makes no goddamn sense.


Debeo Summa Credo
Inflation is the obvious problem. But gagnon goes on to try to address that by saying the fed could offset the inflation by other measures.

I like this guy's style

/yeah yeah toraque beat me to it but he's also a dumb butt-face who sniffs his own butt.
 
2012-12-07 01:23:51 PM  
currently sitting in the DC mint, playing nursemaid
This seems like an idiotic choice that the leaders of our country would consider viable

there is currently no mention in any way of creating one of these
not even in jest
thank the gods

but I'm sure something equally as 'tarded will be the magic bullet
 
2012-12-07 01:25:13 PM  
shiat like this makes you realize that our economy is one mass delusion.
 
2012-12-07 01:25:45 PM  

HMS_Blinkin: PirateKing: Now if Obama really wanted to troll, he'd super glue it to the Capitol steps.

I lol'd at that, thank you! I pictured all the derpy congresscritters trying desperately to pry the thing loose.


Better at the bottom of the House toilet bowl with blue dye in the water.

/Don't shake hands with anyone with blue hands
 
2012-12-07 01:27:00 PM  

RanDomino: Not that this isn't an incredibly silly idea (why not just say they did it? why do there have to be physical objects created to make an accounting trick 'real'?), but I think the idea is that the money created wouldn't enter circulation. Or something. It makes no goddamn sense.


If you use that money to pay the government's expenses and employees, it enters circulation.

It makes no goddamn sense.
 
2012-12-07 01:27:59 PM  

Grammatik Polizei: [pavlopoulos.files.wordpress.com image 410x412]

Minting your way out of trouble always ends well.


Our macroecon professor gave one of those away as a prize.

/The person who got it cheated
 
2012-12-07 01:28:22 PM  

Summercat: Grammatik Polizei: [pavlopoulos.files.wordpress.com image 410x412]

Minting your way out of trouble always ends well.

Well, it depends. We have a high Centralisation, as well as the National Bank idea, that usually gives a good deflation count. I think Geitner would count as a fairly decent (4 or 5) Master of Mint, and Obama is at LEAST a 7/7/7 Ruler.

We can take the inflation from minting.

/EU3.


I agree. As long as we don't indavde South America, we should be able to keep it under control.
 
2012-12-07 01:28:33 PM  

RanDomino: Grammatik Polizei
Minting your way out of trouble always ends well.

Not that this isn't an incredibly silly idea (why not just say they did it? why do there have to be physical objects created to make an accounting trick 'real'?), but I think the idea is that the money created wouldn't enter circulation. Or something. It makes no goddamn sense.


Debeo Summa Credo
Inflation is the obvious problem. But gagnon goes on to try to address that by saying the fed could offset the inflation by other measures.

I like this guy's style

/yeah yeah toraque beat me to it but he's also a dumb butt-face who sniffs his own butt.


Because the rules were written before fiat shenanigans, and for whatever reason a lot of people still believe in The Rules.
 
2012-12-07 01:29:06 PM  

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Has he not heard of inflation?!

Joseph Gagnon received a BA from Harvard University in 1981 and a PhD in economics from Stanford University in 1987.

I'd love to pick his brain on this topic.


Wear a biohazard suit.
 
2012-12-07 01:29:18 PM  

PirateKing: Now if Obama really wanted to troll, he'd super glue it to the Capitol steps.


I like it, but let's take it a step further.

1) Mint coins
2) Glue coins to the bottom of a private pool
3) Invite all your "favorite" people to a big ceremony
4) Pretend to drop the coins into the pool
5) Watch the fun
6) Repeat 3-5 as needed
 
2012-12-07 01:31:33 PM  
I bought a box of those from Franklin Mint.
 
2012-12-07 01:32:33 PM  

tricycleracer: shiat like this makes you realize that our economy is one mass delusion.


Wrong - "...full faith and credit . . ."

/they got no credit, and I damn sure have no faith.
 
2012-12-07 01:34:27 PM  

tricycleracer: shiat like this makes you realize that our economy is one mass delusion.


EVERY economy relies on mass delusion. Like relying on the mass delusion that an unusual rock has some kind of intrinsic value when it's value is almost entirely the subjective opinion of people who think it shines up nicely, and everyone else really really likes it, so they probably should, too.
 
2012-12-07 01:34:44 PM  
Kinda makes is seem silly that they get so butthurt because of imaginary debt getting too close to the imaginary limit. So making a symbolic statement like this would make the Republicans really look like some fools for making a big deal about this.

I say go ahead and make them madder, lets see if they spontaneously combust.
 
2012-12-07 01:38:10 PM  
I still believe in fairies, I do, I do...

Coins, notes and standardised currency are an attempt at measuring confidence. We accept that because someone else should benefit from wading through sewage and all the other stuff we don't want to do. Money is a token of belief and it is used to buy freedom.

$2 trillion in platinum coins is a lie designed to create an impossible freedom.
 
2012-12-07 01:40:00 PM  

nmemkha: [s7.postimage.org image 240x320]


Honestly, watching that show and the one in Detroit -- the Vegas guy really is rather fair with the people coming in. He generally gives them right around 50-60% of the resale value of an item. You go to most resale shops and they tend to buy at 20% or so. You look at the Detroit one and they tend to buy at 10%.
 
2012-12-07 01:40:40 PM  

Holocaust Agnostic: hdhale: "I like it," said Joseph Gagnon of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "There's nothing that's obviously economically problematic about it."

Must be the Peterson Institute for International Economics for the Mentally Challenged. What a total farkwit.

A genius like you should be able to explain to us the problems then. They are so blatant after all.


The total supply of US currency is currently less than 3 trillion.

The M3 money supply in the US is roughly 12 trillion. If the government were to create 2 trillion by fiat, a dollar would become worth about 12/14ths of a dollar or about $.86 overnight.
 
2012-12-07 01:40:43 PM  

JackieRabbit: Huck And Molly Ziegler: I'm just happy to see the federal government could solve the problem along the lines of what I've recommended for a long time: Under cover of darkness, and without telling anyone, a crew fires up the machinery at one of our paper-money-making plants and churns out a trillion or so dollars.
Those dollars go into circulation, everybody has more money, they can pay more for stuff - and tax revenue goes up.
The important thing is, the gov't CAN'T TELL anyone they did this, because otherwise people would just run around whining about "inflation," "wheelbarrows" and "Germany."

You're welcome.

You've never studied macroeconomics have you? The government tried this stupid trick back in the lat 1970s and early 1980s in an attempt to end a recession. All it did was create double-digit inflation that took almost six years to get under control. The Fed must balance how much money is in circulation based on GDP to keep inflation in check.


Yeah, there's a law preventing this now, which is what keeps our credit rating high. But not for COINAGE, only banknotes.

So if you were to do this, you'd have to print millions and millions of DOLLAR COINS nobody wants. Maybe make a series for each and every US president...
 
2012-12-07 01:42:40 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: Holocaust Agnostic: hdhale: "I like it," said Joseph Gagnon of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "There's nothing that's obviously economically problematic about it."

Must be the Peterson Institute for International Economics for the Mentally Challenged. What a total farkwit.

A genius like you should be able to explain to us the problems then. They are so blatant after all.

The total supply of US currency is currently less than 3 trillion.

The M3 money supply in the US is roughly 12 trillion. If the government were to create 2 trillion by fiat, a dollar would become worth about 12/14ths of a dollar or about $.86 overnight.


The horror?
 
2012-12-07 01:43:05 PM  

Corpsie: I still believe in fairies, I do, I do...

Coins, notes and standardised currency are an attempt at measuring confidence. We accept that because someone else should benefit from wading through sewage and all the other stuff we don't want to do. Money is a token of belief and it is used to buy freedom.

$2 trillion in platinum coins is a lie designed to create an impossible freedom.


Well, currency is also far more efficient than bartering. It's portable, and can be divided in ways goods can't normally. (My goat is worth 2.5 chickens, but I really don't want half a chicken, and you don't really have anything else I want...)
 
2012-12-07 01:43:32 PM  

Antimatter: By the headline, I thought they were literally going to mint 2 trillion in plat coins. I wasn't sure if there was even enough platinum on earth to do that.


The government's going to come confiscate all catalytic converters.
 
2012-12-07 01:44:33 PM  
This is good news... for bitcoin.
 
2012-12-07 01:45:54 PM  
By the way, this is one of the stupidest articles I've ever read that "serious people" are taking seriously, and that's saying a lot.
 
2012-12-07 01:46:18 PM  

Holocaust Agnostic: The horror?


You want a 14% pay-cut overnight? If you make $50,000, like the median American, you would go to $43,000 (effectively).
 
2012-12-07 01:47:15 PM  

kombat_unit: This is exactly why the GOP sucks. Government spending like a drunken sailor is the American way.


And we should put Reagan's portrait on the coins.

/keep it off the dimes.
 
2012-12-07 01:47:33 PM  

jigger: By the way, this is one of the stupidest articles I've ever read that "serious people" are taking seriously, and that's saying a lot.


I'm with you. When I saw Chris Hayes talk about it on MSNBC a couple of days ago, I thought it was worthy of Fox News and the same guy in the Tea Party who was hoping to create a quorum problem in the electoral college.
 
2012-12-07 01:48:26 PM  

Bondith: They should use rhodium. It's currently worth more per mole than the other precious metals.


Not by much. Its price is still nowhere near the 2008 peak.
 
2012-12-07 01:49:37 PM  

vygramul: EVERY economy relies on mass delusion.


Exactly. And this is why I love economics threads. I can't count how many times I've offered to trade a little bit of inherently precious gold, or a few boxes of shotgun shells, or a pallet of tinned meat, and all I want in return are a few of those worthless scraps of colored paper that the other guy just told me are completely valueless.

So far, no takers. In fact, from what I've seen of gold-bugs and other fiat-money-conspiracists, they're probably more likely to stab me in the throat for trying to take their debased, worthless pieces of illegal government scrip (etc. etc.) than anybody else.
 
2012-12-07 01:50:09 PM  

vygramul: Holocaust Agnostic: The horror?

You want a 14% pay-cut overnight? If you make $50,000, like the median American, you would go to $43,000 (effectively).


Wages will catch up. Its actually a 14% debt cut. Which would be nice.
 
2012-12-07 01:55:15 PM  

Holocaust Agnostic: vygramul: Holocaust Agnostic: The horror?

You want a 14% pay-cut overnight? If you make $50,000, like the median American, you would go to $43,000 (effectively).

Wages will catch up. Its actually a 14% debt cut. Which would be nice.


If you were a creditor, would you extend credit to the US later? It would kill our credit rating. Try issuing bonds - even short-term bonds for operations that even ridiculously profitable companies make use of. It would be an unmitigated disaster. Interest rates would skyrocket. Have a 3% mortgage? It's now 17%. Have a 12% credit card? It's now 26%.
 
2012-12-07 01:55:42 PM  

brilett: Knot meet sword.

It is odd that when Congress approves spending.......they don't actually approve spending.


Well, they approve spending but that doesn't mean that they approve borrowing.
 
2012-12-07 01:56:18 PM  
Thanks to an odd loophole in current law, the U.S. Treasury is technically allowed to mint as many coins made of platinum as it wants and can assign them whatever value it pleases.

Anyone know the origins of this loophole?
 
2012-12-07 01:59:44 PM  

dennysgod: Coins? All we need is some new paper money:

[2.bp.blogspot.com image 410x224]


No, they need to be coins. Obama stands for change, you see.

In all seriousness, it's a stupid solution, but a stupid problem as well. Maybe this averages out to sane?

But I can't wait for the Lupin III special where he steals these, only to lose them when Zenigata accidentally picks them up, thinks they're quarters due to having minimal experience with American money, and then spends them on a cup of ramen.
 
2012-12-07 02:01:33 PM  

tricycleracer: shiat like this makes you realize that our economy is one mass delusion.



So is the deluded idea that perpetual growth is somehow sustainable ... in fact, we built our ENTIRE economy around the idea of perpetual growth. Which makes total sense, you know, in a finite universe.
 
2012-12-07 02:03:07 PM  
I just created enough "money" to pay off all of the national debt forever.

Unfortunately, I reflexively flushed.
 
2012-12-07 02:10:00 PM  
vygramul:
Well, currency is also far more efficient than bartering. It's portable, and can be divided in ways goods can't normally. (My goat is worth 2.5 chickens, but I really don't want half a chicken, and you don't really have anything else I want...)

It's still a promissory. Platinum dollars is an attempt at "upselling" something that has no foundation. Working on the English standard of "I'll get you a pint/who's round is it?" relies on just the same trusts and mechanics, except it's the barter system with real numbers and real currency.

You know- rather than futures, hedge funds, interest, and other confidence tricks.
 
2012-12-07 02:13:15 PM  
Sure and when his two daughters go through his pockets to find change to buy a couple of snickers bars from the White House vending machine this will really look like a bad idea.
 
2012-12-07 02:13:43 PM  
www.history.com 
You want $1 trillion for each coin? Well, the economy's not that great and I don't see a lot of people coming in to buy a $1 trillion coin. Tell you what, I can give you $10,000 for it and not a penny more.
 
2012-12-07 02:14:08 PM  

Smoky Dragon Dish: Bondith: I was all set to ask if a trillion dollars worth of platinum even existed, then I saw the scheme was one of those worth-by-fiat things.

They should use rhodium. It's currently worth more per mole than the other precious metals.

What would happen if you were to gather a mole(unit of measurement) of moles (the small furry critter) in one place?

Link


Throw in some mole sauce and you got a deal.
 
2012-12-07 02:16:37 PM  
Oznog
So if you were to do this, you'd have to print millions and millions of DOLLAR COINS nobody wants. Maybe make a series for each and every US president...

rosie rios asked me why I was chuckling
she thought it was funny
dick peterson shook his head
 
2012-12-07 02:20:44 PM  
Depleted uranium coins would be worth much more than cheap platinum

i.ytimg.com
 
2012-12-07 02:21:50 PM  

PsyLord: [www.history.com image 475x240] 
You want $1 trillion for each coin? Well, the economy's not that great and I don't see a lot of people coming in to buy a $1 trillion coin. Tell you what, I can give you $10,000 for it and not a penny more.


I don't know much about trillion dollar platinum coins, so let me call my buddy who specializes in trillion dollar platinum coins.
 
2012-12-07 02:22:36 PM  
It it specified if there's a limit to the size of the coins? If not, they should make them big enough/heavy enough that you can't just drop them into a pocket and leave with them.

I know it's an unlikely scenario, but then again so are the plot-lines to a majority of the Bond films.
 
2012-12-07 02:24:09 PM  

tricycleracer: PsyLord: [www.history.com image 475x240] 
You want $1 trillion for each coin? Well, the economy's not that great and I don't see a lot of people coming in to buy a $1 trillion coin. Tell you what, I can give you $10,000 for it and not a penny more.

I don't know much about trillion dollar platinum coins, so let me call my buddy who specializes in trillion dollar platinum coins.


You gotta remember, I have to make a profit on this.
 
2012-12-07 02:33:14 PM  

Holocaust Agnostic: Mr. Eugenides:
The total supply of US currency is currently less than 3 trillion.

The M3 money supply in the US is roughly 12 trillion. If the government were to create 2 trillion by fiat, a dollar would become worth about 12/14ths of a dollar or about $.86 overnight.

The horror?


Well it would take a while to filter through the system to retail prices, and longer to filter to wages, but yes, the horror.

The stock and equities markets would be the first to feel the hit dropping probably 10 to 20% on the first day with them settling in around a 15% drop. Over time, they might recover but they'd be starting from a new baseline and the devaluation of the stock would impact credit for the company.

Oil would jump within a day to 14/12ths it's current price. What is an $80 barrel today will be $93 the next day. A $4 gallon of milk would jump to $4.60 within a month or two along with the rest of your groceries.

Your paycheck will remain the same though unless or until you can negotiate a rase.

So yeah, I think that's a not good scenario.
 
2012-12-07 02:34:32 PM  
Here's a visual on the debt ceiling. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTBODoBaCns&sns=fb

Platinum's worth a little less than gold currently at $1,601/Ozt. The dumbasses at the mint are still putting a face value on it that's $1,551 below it's current value in fiat Federal Reserve "dollars".
 
2012-12-07 02:40:08 PM  
While I admit it's a novel solution it has to many problems. What happens if someone STEALS the coin? Is the coin deposited and then immediately destroyed or does it sit somewhere tempting thieves? No one person in the history of the dollar has has 1 trillion dollars much less 2.
 
2012-12-07 02:43:25 PM  
t0.gstatic.com

Oh, hai!
 
2012-12-07 02:45:22 PM  

seadoo2006: tricycleracer: shiat like this makes you realize that our economy is one mass delusion.


So is the deluded idea that perpetual growth is somehow sustainable ... in fact, we built our ENTIRE economy around the idea of perpetual growth. Which makes total sense, you know, in a finite universe.


You've nailed it. We should be working toward a stable economy with very controlled growth and a diversity of sectors. Today 70% of the US economy is based in consumer spending, which is a recipe for economic disaster. It makes us consumers and dependent of foreign producers. China understands this and has been leveraging it for sometime now. They are poised to become the world's largest economy within 20 years, dwarfing ours. Some predictions are that the US will be irrelevant as a world power and economic base of the world in 50 years. I don't think it's going to take that long. We're going the way of Great Britain.
 
2012-12-07 02:46:29 PM  

seadoo2006: So is the deluded idea that perpetual growth is somehow sustainable ... in fact, we built our ENTIRE economy around the idea of perpetual growth. Which makes total sense, you know, in a finite universe.


Moderate perpetual growth is possible as long as there are advances. We find more efficient ways to produce crops, so there's more food. We advance technology so that smart phones are commonplace. We have refrigerators with operating systems. These things count as "growth". That's sustainable as far as anyone can currently see into the future. GDP is just a measurement of all that stuff in dollars adjusted for inflation. As long as advancement is possible, so is growth.
 
2012-12-07 02:51:39 PM  

alienyouth111: Here's a visual on the debt ceiling. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTBODoBaCns&sns=fb

Platinum's worth a little less than gold currently at $1,601/Ozt. The dumbasses at the mint are still putting a face value on it that's $1,551 below it's current value in fiat Federal Reserve "dollars".


Which is why only an idiot sells a gold or plat coin for face value. Even gold coins are stamped $10 or $20 a coin.

What you do is sell to someone for the cost of the material inside the coin.
 
2012-12-07 02:54:48 PM  

Holocaust Agnostic: Mr. Eugenides: Holocaust Agnostic: hdhale: "I like it," said Joseph Gagnon of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "There's nothing that's obviously economically problematic about it."

Must be the Peterson Institute for International Economics for the Mentally Challenged. What a total farkwit.

A genius like you should be able to explain to us the problems then. They are so blatant after all.

The total supply of US currency is currently less than 3 trillion.

The M3 money supply in the US is roughly 12 trillion. If the government were to create 2 trillion by fiat, a dollar would become worth about 12/14ths of a dollar or about $.86 overnight.

The horror?


Yes...the horror. Plus there will be the obligatory "women and minorities hardest hit" stories.
 
2012-12-07 02:54:54 PM  

keytronic: Of all the Simpson's episodes that accurately commented on or predicted the future of our society, never in my wildest dreams did I think the trillion dollar bill episode would be one of them.

Don't worry America, I'm sure having a government that continually confuses reality with parody will have no long term consequences.


Onion Article: Congressman Torn Between Meaningless Pledge To Anti-Tax Zealot, Well-Being Of Nation

Real Article: McConnell Filibusters his own bill

. . .I'll admit though, the "trillion dollar bill" from The Simpsons is one I did not see coming though.
 
2012-12-07 03:00:27 PM  

Knight of the Woeful Countenance: Holocaust Agnostic: Lumpmoose: Maybe asinine. But an asinine problem requires an asinine solution. We have enough problems without adding arbitrary ones on top, like the invented debt ceiling and its subsequent biannual invented crisis.

Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would make a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve.

What's the actual physical process for moving the coins from the US Mint to the Federal Reserve? If they're stolen, does the US government just declare them worthless?

They wold be fairly easy to prove stolen I imagine.

Pawnshop probably couldn't make change.

Now, I want to help you out with this, but unfortunately, I just don't know enough about trillion dollar platinum coins to make a decision right now. Would you mind if I called a guy who's an expert in Numismatics?


I applaud your use of the word Numismatics. (Not a word you get to use every day, and often receive blank stares of incomprehension when you do.)
 
2012-12-07 03:04:02 PM  

jonny_q: Moderate perpetual growth is possible as long as there are advances. We find more efficient ways to produce crops, so there's more food. We advance technology so that smart phones are commonplace. We have refrigerators with operating systems. These things count as "growth"


Except, you know, for this little 8000-mile-across ball they call the Earth. We actually haven't found 'more efficient' ways to grow crops. Rather, we've mined tens-of-millions-of-years worth of concentrated phosphorus deposits to treble yields over the last century. And we're seriously running short of that. All those billions of smartphones need tantalum and erbium. Which we're seriously short of.

There's also the problem of how much 'moderate' growth compounds. 1% growth in population would be 1 person per every square meter of earth's surface within roughly 1000 years. Our current global energy consumption, growing at 1%/year (currently over 20%, btw) would be greater than the theoretical solar flux hitting Earth in around 900.

Perpetual growth isn't happening. Not just a long term theory... the world's population will peak and start shrinking within the lives of many Fark readers. We need to adjust economics to account for this core notion. Hopefully Japan (as leaders in the, "ummm... we've stopped growing by any measure, not just population") figures it out.
 
2012-12-07 03:05:52 PM  

seadoo2006: So is the deluded idea that perpetual growth is somehow sustainable ... in fact, we built our ENTIRE economy around the idea of perpetual growth. Which makes total sense, you know, in a finite universe.



On the other hand, we are only using a relatively small percentage of the known universe right now, and have quite a few generations left before heat death becomes a real problem. Perpetual growth, strictly speaking, is not sustainable, but managed growth is.
 
2012-12-07 03:14:51 PM  

Jahx: Knight of the Woeful Countenance: Holocaust Agnostic:

Pawnshop probably couldn't make change.

Now, I want to help you out with this, but unfortunately, I just don't know enough about trillion dollar platinum coins to make a decision right now. Would you mind if I called a guy who's an expert in Numismatics?

I applaud your use of the word Numismatics. (Not a word you get to use every day, and often receive blank stares of incomprehension when you do.)


that word of the day calendar really paid off for me this year....
 
2012-12-07 03:20:48 PM  

Elzar: The only thing that trumps trillion dollar platinum coins is the set of brass on the guy who tries to implement said strategy...


Point of order. I mean lets get serious.

1. Platinum is silly, pot metal is far more suitable.
2. The coin should have an elephant on the back being tag teamed by two rampant donkeys.
3. The Speaker of the houses mug on the front.
4. Officially referred to a a US Bo Ner.
5. The words 'futuis me. non te pedicabo'
 
2012-12-07 03:23:24 PM  
meanmutton: "Well, they approve spending but that doesn't mean that they approve borrowing."

They also approve revenue rates.
And you can't really approve a massive cut to revenue rates (GWB Tax Cuts) *and* a massive expansion of spending (Medicare D, DHS/TSA, Iraq, Afghanistan) and then play stupid and say "well, shiat. We never said we could *borrow* our way there!"

Because, yeah, those two actions are an implicit statement that they'd like to borrow the fark out of some money. Furthermore, "Deficits don't matter" made it explicit.
If they meant to say: the sick, poor and elderly need to be kicked out into the streets to make this all balance out, one would imagine they'd have rolled it into either the bill that cut revenue or the bill that approved more spending.
 
2012-12-07 03:24:57 PM  
Here's a better plan.

Take $2 Trillion worth of platinum and make a lot of it into medical instruments and sell the rest to raise, say, $1.5 Trillion in cash. Train millions of doctors to perform cosmetic surgery. Send them all over the USA and the world to perform cosmetic surgery on the old, the ugly, and the victims of war and civil war, etc.--all expenses paid for by Obamacare and USAID.

People are paid more money when they are younger and better-looking, so all this cosmetic surgery will not only employ a few million people as doctors, nurses, make-up artists, temps, cleaning staff, cooks, etc., but will also give a massive boost to employment, wages and salaries, and pensions. It will also give a massive boost to everything from hospital building to food processing (hard to eat after cosmetic surgery--need a lot of soft, bland food).

Thanks to the free cosmetic surgery (and follow-up care) millions, maybe billions of people will be more attractive, which will give a boost to fashion, restaurants, hotels, prostitution, and thousands of other sectors of the economy. Also they will be more likely to spend on new houses (as they find more attractive spouses) and so forth.

I can not imagine a sector of the economy that would not be improved by massive cosmetic surgery on the fuglies. I could use a bit of work myself.

If you simply give people trillions of dollars in "money", whether it is fiat currency or precious metals, it will deflate the value of the precious metals and inflate the price of everything else by causing inflation. There is no difference between dumping a massive pile of gold into the economy and printing money. Only fools think there is.

Just look at what the treasure of the New World did to the economy of Portugal and Spain. The price of precious metals fell by about a third according to Adam Smith, the great Liberal Economist. The Spanish economy was ruined and rather than making Spain richer, it merely destroyed gold and silver mines in Europe, which couldn't compete on cost with slaves that were worked to death in the New World.

In short, this idea is one of the dumbest I've ever heard and any one of my jokes would do the economy more good if you printed them on toilet paper and handed it out for free on the street outside of high schools and grade schools.
 
2012-12-07 03:25:10 PM  

hdhale: "I like it," said Joseph Gagnon of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "There's nothing that's obviously economically problematic about it."

Must be the Peterson Institute for International Economics for the Mentally Challenged. What a total farkwit.


As a fellow anonymous a**hole on the internet, I would also like to assert that I am smarter than international doctoral economists.
 
2012-12-07 03:28:01 PM  

brilett: Knot meet sword.

It is odd that when Congress approves spending.......they don't actually approve spending.



I'm not saying they're aliens...
 
2012-12-07 03:28:18 PM  
if they do, it should have boehner's face on the obverse and mcconell's on the reverse.
 
2012-12-07 03:30:34 PM  

Mr. Eugenides: The stock and equities markets would be the first to feel the hit dropping probably 10 to 20% on the first day with them settling in around a 15% drop. Over time, they might recover but they'd be starting from a new baseline and the devaluation of the stock would impact credit for the company.


I think you have it backwards. Printing hard money is inflationary, it takes more dollars to buy the same stuff. The flip side is debt loads are reduced, since they get paid off in cheaper dollars. That's good since excess debt is half of the problem. In theory the exchange rate falls, which makes imports more expensive, but exports more attractive. What happens to the exchange rate though is anyone's guess since a lot of other countries are managing the recession even worse than the US. Wages are tricky since with high unemployment it's hard to workers to press for higher wages.
 
2012-12-07 03:30:40 PM  

JackieRabbit: seadoo2006: tricycleracer: shiat like this makes you realize that our economy is one mass delusion.


So is the deluded idea that perpetual growth is somehow sustainable ... in fact, we built our ENTIRE economy around the idea of perpetual growth. Which makes total sense, you know, in a finite universe.

You've nailed it. We should be working toward a stable economy with very controlled growth and a diversity of sectors. Today 70% of the US economy is based in consumer spending, which is a recipe for economic disaster. It makes us consumers and dependent of foreign producers. China understands this and has been leveraging it for sometime now. They are poised to become the world's largest economy within 20 years, dwarfing ours. Some predictions are that the US will be irrelevant as a world power and economic base of the world in 50 years. I don't think it's going to take that long. We're going the way of Great Britain.



Depending on Consumers wouldn't be such a bad idea if workers' wages hadn't stagnated over the last 30 years. If your economy is going to depend on people buying lots of useless crap, you darn well better pay them enough to ensure they can afford to keep buying all that useless crap.
 
2012-12-07 03:30:40 PM  
They were going to make one coin worth two trillion, but Taco Bell wouldn't accept it.
 
2012-12-07 03:35:36 PM  
Make them out of PLUTONIUM!!

/I bet you'd sell the shait out of them.
 
2012-12-07 03:38:33 PM  
i942.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-07 03:39:53 PM  
Um, fellas, raising the debt ceiling of the federal government 16% will not mean 16% inflation. Nor will paying previously agreed-upon future expenditures any other way, including this way.

Either way, the contractors and suppliers and soldiers and government employees and Chinese bondholders who are presently already scheduled to be paid, by act of Congress, will get paid. Mostly in electrons representing dollars, a few of them in actual bills.

In Dec. 2009, the debt limit was raised to $12.4T. In Feb. 2010, less than three months later, it was raised to $14.3T. That's an increase of 15%. Did we get 15% inflation in those three months?

For that matter, in the 28 years between 1983 and 2011, the debt limit has gone up from $1.4T to $14.7T, an increase of 1,050%. Have we had average annual 8.7% inflation every year since early in the Reagan years? (I.e., do things cost 10.5 times what they did in 1983?)

These things are not the same thing. The Federal Reserve controls the money supply. It has other options besides allowing for instantaneous hyperinflation (e.g., raising the discount rate, increasing the reserve requirement, raising the federal funds rate, etc.) It will use them whether this gets done the normal way or the stupid coin way, just like it has for as long as it's been in existence.
 
2012-12-07 03:42:35 PM  
They should just make 100 of those couns and then you will be good for almost ten years! I can't see how it would negatively impact the value of the currency. I like to look at Zimbabwe as a shining example of sound monetary policy.

As a serious question though, if paying back the 16+ Trillion dollars will crash your currency, how do you ever plan on paying it back? Does it simply ensure a collosal debt at interest for all eternity?
 
2012-12-07 03:44:05 PM  

dave_dfwm: The real problem is government spending. Washington spends like a teenager who stole his parents' credit card.


bingo. no matter how much money a wealthy girl may give WashDC it won't get them out of hock. they would simply spend themselves in just as deep in short time, all over again. they are like a relative whose life is a series of poor decisions. they owe everyone and their sad stories never end. they may actually be intelligent and well educated but every week they do something stunningly stupid.

it's sad that these dooshbags in WashDC really don't have to answer to anyone. very wealthy powerful families own and run the business, have the big money and thus own and run the government. those people are greedy, it's natures way, so they spend their lives putting the screws to the working stiff tax payers seven ways from Sunday.

since we have a nation full of pussies with closets full of weapons none of this will ever change.

long ago a authentic Colorado cowboy told me: "It ain't what you make, it's how you spend it". took me a little while but i found out that gentleman was absolutely right. spend with care and save some every week. it's really quite simple.
 
2012-12-07 03:45:21 PM  
So government bonds right? Then you've got this thing where people get payed interest, or maybe sell them, depending on their mood. So like, when no one trusts that their reserves of foreign currencies (denominated in bonds for interests sake, but essentially just big boy dollars) will retain value to use in trade with said issuing conomy? Then no reinvest, find mature adults who make good on claims not just joke around like a billion chinese peasant past labor worthless, if is, worthless labor start carry gun now.

So sooooolllyyy..

If you don't understand how this will spark domestic inflation i have no idea how to help you.
 
2012-12-07 03:46:20 PM  

CokeBear: JackieRabbit: seadoo2006: tricycleracer: shiat like this makes you realize that our economy is one mass delusion.


So is the deluded idea that perpetual growth is somehow sustainable ... in fact, we built our ENTIRE economy around the idea of perpetual growth. Which makes total sense, you know, in a finite universe.

You've nailed it. We should be working toward a stable economy with very controlled growth and a diversity of sectors. Today 70% of the US economy is based in consumer spending, which is a recipe for economic disaster. It makes us consumers and dependent of foreign producers. China understands this and has been leveraging it for sometime now. They are poised to become the world's largest economy within 20 years, dwarfing ours. Some predictions are that the US will be irrelevant as a world power and economic base of the world in 50 years. I don't think it's going to take that long. We're going the way of Great Britain.


Depending on Consumers wouldn't be such a bad idea if workers' wages hadn't stagnated over the last 30 years. If your economy is going to depend on people buying lots of useless crap, you darn well better pay them enough to ensure they can afford to keep buying all that useless crap.


If you are actually manufacturing the crap that those consumers buy. That's what we used to do. We were a producer nation and exported goods to other countries. We still do to a much smaller extent that we used to. Also, a consumer-based economy only allows money to be in a wage-earners pocket for a short amount of time before it goes back to the 1%. Back when we were a producer-based economy, the average person saved more and invested more, which kept a larger portion of the DGP in the hands of the people. Today, they buy crap they don't need and usually in credit. This is not sustainable.
 
2012-12-07 03:48:46 PM  

Mr. Eugenides:

Well it would take a while to filter through the system to retail prices, and longer to filter to wages, but yes, the horror.

The stock and equities markets would be the first to feel the hit dropping probably 10 to 20% on the first day with them settling in around a 15% drop. Over time, they might recover but they'd be starting from a new baseline and the devaluation of the stock would impact credit for the company.

Oil would jump within a day to 14/12ths it's current price. What is an $80 barrel today will be $93 the next day. A $4 gallon of milk would jump to $4.60 within a month or two along with the rest of your groceries.

Your paycheck will remain the same though unless or until you can negotiate a rase.

So yeah, I think that's a not good scenario.


Sort of... equities actually go up with inflation, since you would have to spend more dollars on the asset. People would see an overnight JUMP in stock prices... but of course all your money is worth less.
 
2012-12-07 03:54:50 PM  

Alonjar: Mr. Eugenides:

Well it would take a while to filter through the system to retail prices, and longer to filter to wages, but yes, the horror.

The stock and equities markets would be the first to feel the hit dropping probably 10 to 20% on the first day with them settling in around a 15% drop. Over time, they might recover but they'd be starting from a new baseline and the devaluation of the stock would impact credit for the company.

Oil would jump within a day to 14/12ths it's current price. What is an $80 barrel today will be $93 the next day. A $4 gallon of milk would jump to $4.60 within a month or two along with the rest of your groceries.

Your paycheck will remain the same though unless or until you can negotiate a rase.

So yeah, I think that's a not good scenario.

Sort of... equities actually go up with inflation, since you would have to spend more dollars on the asset. People would see an overnight JUMP in stock prices... but of course all your money is worth less.


Worth less is a vast improvement over worthless for the Mid and Low classes.
Progressively worse as you go up the food chain.
I like it. Not as good en toto as reissuing currency, but acceptable.
 
2012-12-07 03:58:29 PM  

Lumpmoose: Maybe asinine. But an asinine problem requires an asinine solution. We have enough problems without adding arbitrary ones on top, like the invented debt ceiling and its subsequent biannual invented crisis.

Under this scenario, the U.S. Mint would make a pair of trillion-dollar platinum coins. The president orders the coins to be deposited at the Federal Reserve.

What's the actual physical process for moving the coins from the US Mint to the Federal Reserve? If they're stolen, does the US government just declare them worthless?


Insurance policy, natch.

/evar notice police and policy are just a keystroke away
 
2012-12-07 03:58:32 PM  

seadoo2006: tricycleracer: shiat like this makes you realize that our economy is one mass delusion.


So is the deluded idea that perpetual growth is somehow sustainable ... in fact, we built our ENTIRE economy around the idea of perpetual growth. Which makes total sense, you know, in a finite universe.


Is your argument really that we're going to use up all of the resources in the universe in a meaningful time-frame?
 
2012-12-07 04:00:35 PM  
The Prez just can't take them, slap them down and say "Suck it Boehner".
 
2012-12-07 04:04:56 PM  

THX 1138: Why coins? Trillion dollar bills could at least have anti-counterfeiting measures in their design.

[www.huydang.com image 526x380]


Got to love a website whining about hotlinking the image they stole from The Simpsons
 
2012-12-07 04:18:44 PM  

meanmutton: seadoo2006: tricycleracer: shiat like this makes you realize that our economy is one mass delusion.


So is the deluded idea that perpetual growth is somehow sustainable ... in fact, we built our ENTIRE economy around the idea of perpetual growth. Which makes total sense, you know, in a finite universe.

Is your argument really that we're going to use up all of the resources in the universe in a meaningful time-frame?


25.media.tumblr.com

/indeed
 
2012-12-07 04:36:02 PM  
This seems like a really circuitous way of having the Federal Reserve forgive their portion of our gross debt. In an ideal world instead of us paying the Federal Reserve to buy back $2 trillion in bonds that the Federal Reserve would be unable to spend (no one could reasonably break it and they know they can't use either coin while maintaining their mission of keeping inflation under control), we'd just have the Federal Reserve surrender those bonds no questions asked if we hit the debt limit with no resolution in sight.

Then again in an ideal world we'd never have the problem come up.
 
2012-12-07 04:36:04 PM  

chumboobler: They should just make 100 of those couns and then you will be good for almost ten years! I can't see how it would negatively impact the value of the currency. I like to look at Zimbabwe as a shining example of sound monetary policy.

As a serious question though, if paying back the 16+ Trillion dollars will crash your currency, how do you ever plan on paying it back? Does it simply ensure a collosal debt at interest for all eternity?


If the world had been beating down Zimbabwe's door to buy Zimbabwean bonds, then Zimbabwe would never have had to hyperinflate in the first place. Remember, this stupid coin law makes it possible for Obama to deposit ten trillion quintillion dollars in the Fed if he wants to. That won't actually change the amount of money in circulation. But Obama can't make Congress appropriate a single dime more than it wants to, nor can he prevent the Fed from keeping the total amount of money in circulation from rising much, much less than $2T overnight. (Nor would he want to.) And the Fed will be able to do that for as long as people regard the U.S. credit in a generally favorable light, and not a Zimbabwean one.

As for your serious question, "reducing public debt as a share of GDP" and "getting the benefits of a bunch of people holding our debt" are not totally in conflict. Strange as it might sound, we really don't want to get out of debt as a nation, because (a) if we can borrow money for cheap, why not use it and (b) it gives us a little bit of leverage with our creditors. If China wanted to, it could wage economic warfare against us and screw us over pretty badly. But they can't do it without setting a few trillion of their own dollars on fire, and for that matter destabilizing the rest of the world economy, too.

You could probably make the case that we are getting to, or even past, the point of diminishing returns with our debt load. Certainly that point exists somewhere--not as X trillion dollars, but as a share of our GDP or some other proportional measure. Revenue-neutral budgets and budget surpluses that retire some of that debt are usually good things. But it's neither necessary nor desirable for the country to someday be totally debt-free.
 
2012-12-07 04:47:03 PM  

Antimatter: By the headline, I thought they were literally going to mint 2 trillion in plat coins. I wasn't sure if there was even enough platinum on earth to do that.


that would be an intriguing concept if there was actually an amount of precious metal to back up
the dollar value in circulation.
 
2012-12-07 04:59:31 PM  
If they minted then in a smaller denomination would there be enough rich idiots to buy them?
 
2012-12-07 05:01:33 PM  

MasterPython: If they minted then in a smaller denomination would there be enough rich idiots to buy them?


Glen Back could promote them on FOX.
 
2012-12-07 05:01:44 PM  

semiotix: chumboobler: They should just make 100 of those couns and then you will be good for almost ten years! I can't see how it would negatively impact the value of the currency. I like to look at Zimbabwe as a shining example of sound monetary policy.

As a serious question though, if paying back the 16+ Trillion dollars will crash your currency, how do you ever plan on paying it back? Does it simply ensure a collosal debt at interest for all eternity?

If the world had been beating down Zimbabwe's door to buy Zimbabwean bonds, then Zimbabwe would never have had to hyperinflate in the first place. Remember, this stupid coin law makes it possible for Obama to deposit ten trillion quintillion dollars in the Fed if he wants to. That won't actually change the amount of money in circulation. But Obama can't make Congress appropriate a single dime more than it wants to, nor can he prevent the Fed from keeping the total amount of money in circulation from rising much, much less than $2T overnight. (Nor would he want to.) And the Fed will be able to do that for as long as people regard the U.S. credit in a generally favorable light, and not a Zimbabwean one.

As for your serious question, "reducing public debt as a share of GDP" and "getting the benefits of a bunch of people holding our debt" are not totally in conflict. Strange as it might sound, we really don't want to get out of debt as a nation, because (a) if we can borrow money for cheap, why not use it and (b) it gives us a little bit of leverage with our creditors. If China wanted to, it could wage economic warfare against us and screw us over pretty badly. But they can't do it without setting a few trillion of their own dollars on fire, and for that matter destabilizing the rest of the world economy, too.

You could probably make the case that we are getting to, or even past, the point of diminishing returns with our debt load. Certainly that point exists somewhere--not as X trillion dollars, but as a share of our GDP or ...


Thanks for taking the time to explain that. I fix electronics for a living and find it way less complicated compared to world finance.
 
2012-12-07 05:10:09 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: Antimatter: By the headline, I thought they were literally going to mint 2 trillion in plat coins. I wasn't sure if there was even enough platinum on earth to do that.

that would be an intriguing concept if there was actually an amount of precious metal to back up
the dollar value in circulation.


Might not be NOW, but it could be arranged.

Under ISO 4217, international law/regulations stipulate that there are four precious metals that coins can be minted in: silver, gold, palladium and platinum.

Yeah, I don't know if there's a trillion dollars worth of platinum on the planet.

However, note that technically palladium is a precious metal. The Russians still occasionally mint palladium coins.

Palladium is actually quite common in asteroids. A thin seam of palladium-rich soil was part of how they figured out there was an asteroid impact tens of millions of years ago: debris from the asteroid landing across the world. A metal that is extremely rare on Earth being found in high concentrations in the soil at a layer that would have been laid down that long ago.

So, what if NASA (or private industry) snared an asteroid for mining purposes? Besides strategic metals like titanium and rare earths, the precious metal content of a large asteroid could be very substantial.
 
2012-12-07 05:22:42 PM  

Silverstaff: So, what if NASA (or private industry) snared an asteroid for mining purposes? Besides strategic metals like titanium and rare earths, the precious metal content of a large asteroid could be very substantial.


If someone did that the "precious" metals would quickly transform into "industrial" metals, valued according to regular supply & demand. Not necessarily a bad thing, as those metals are useful catalysts and are good for things like fuel cells, but it would suck for anyone whose bullion coins were suddenly only worth their face value.

Aluminum used to be a precious metal.
 
2012-12-07 05:23:17 PM  
i1134.photobucket.com
Problem solved.
 
2012-12-07 05:28:46 PM  
Hope they maintain the highest security so Biden doesn't secretly swap it for a Canadian loonie, exchanges it for 4 trillion quarters, and then off to the slots.
 
2012-12-07 05:29:03 PM  

Silverstaff: Nutsac_Jim: Antimatter: By the headline, I thought they were literally going to mint 2 trillion in plat coins. I wasn't sure if there was even enough platinum on earth to do that.

that would be an intriguing concept if there was actually an amount of precious metal to back up
the dollar value in circulation.

Might not be NOW, but it could be arranged.

Under ISO 4217, international law/regulations stipulate that there are four precious metals that coins can be minted in: silver, gold, palladium and platinum.

Yeah, I don't know if there's a trillion dollars worth of platinum on the planet.

However, note that technically palladium is a precious metal. The Russians still occasionally mint palladium coins.

Palladium is actually quite common in asteroids. A thin seam of palladium-rich soil was part of how they figured out there was an asteroid impact tens of millions of years ago: debris from the asteroid landing across the world. A metal that is extremely rare on Earth being found in high concentrations in the soil at a layer that would have been laid down that long ago.

So, what if NASA (or private industry) snared an asteroid for mining purposes? Besides strategic metals like titanium and rare earths, the precious metal content of a large asteroid could be very substantial.


The only platinum mine in the United States is here in Montana: Stillwater Mine.

It's why whenever the PGM market (Platinum Metals Group) has its prices announced the official tick ends with "PGM-SM-MT" (Platinum Metals and Groupings - Stillwater Mine - Billings, MT (home office))

They pull an average of $13,500,000 AN HOUR out of it.

/Stillwater also owns the Canadian platinum mine that sits in the Rocky Mountains. Yes, folks, one company owns ALL the platinum found or produced in North America.
 
2012-12-07 05:49:07 PM  
Since we're just pulling money out of thin air, why not make them $100 quintillilon coins. and not worry about a debt ceiling for another 30 years
 
2012-12-07 05:54:20 PM  

JackieRabbit: Some predictions are that the US will be irrelevant as a world power and economic base of the world in 50 years. I don't think it's going to take that long.


One can hope...
 
2012-12-07 06:02:21 PM  

ringersol: And you can't really approve a massive cut to revenue rates (GWB Tax Cuts)


Revenue and tax rates are not synonymous. Tax rates are not applied to a fixed number. They are applied to a variable that is typically the inverse of tax rates.

What is more: 30% of $100 or 28% of $110?
 
2012-12-07 06:04:52 PM  
Mr. Eugenides
The M3 money supply in the US is roughly 12 trillion. If the government were to create 2 trillion by fiat, a dollar would become worth about 12/14ths of a dollar or about $.86 overnight.

I don't think it's quite that straightforward, since this $2 Trillion would be effectively unspendable.

Maybe they'll put them in a museum, with a plaque that says "These small metal discs are the only thing holding up the economy".


Lawnchair
Except, you know, for this little 8000-mile-across ball they call the Earth. We actually haven't found 'more efficient' ways to grow crops.

well except for permaculture
 
2012-12-07 06:28:43 PM  

semiotix: Um, fellas, raising the debt ceiling of the federal government 16% will not mean 16% inflation. Nor will paying previously agreed-upon future expenditures any other way, including this way.

Either way, the contractors and suppliers and soldiers and government employees and Chinese bondholders who are presently already scheduled to be paid, by act of Congress, will get paid. Mostly in electrons representing dollars, a few of them in actual bills.

In Dec. 2009, the debt limit was raised to $12.4T. In Feb. 2010, less than three months later, it was raised to $14.3T. That's an increase of 15%. Did we get 15% inflation in those three months?

For that matter, in the 28 years between 1983 and 2011, the debt limit has gone up from $1.4T to $14.7T, an increase of 1,050%. Have we had average annual 8.7% inflation every year since early in the Reagan years? (I.e., do things cost 10.5 times what they did in 1983?)

These things are not the same thing. The Federal Reserve controls the money supply. It has other options besides allowing for instantaneous hyperinflation (e.g., raising the discount rate, increasing the reserve requirement, raising the federal funds rate, etc.) It will use them whether this gets done the normal way or the stupid coin way, just like it has for as long as it's been in existence.


I assume you DNRTFA. We aren't talking about raising the debt ceiling. When you raise the debt ceiling that just gives the Treasury the ability to go to someone who has pre-existing money and borrow it from them. In that scenario no new money is being created, we just owe more creditors more money, which is fine as long as they think we are good for it (the problem is eventually we won't, we will do what is being proposed here, and then the US economy goes in the toilet until we have a revolution, split into 4-8 separate countries, and begin rebuilding as separate non-global powers).

What is being proposed here as a "better" solution is precisely the same thing as printing 2 trillion in cash and then using that cash to pay back our creditors. It doesn't matter what physical form the money is, it is still generated from thin air and therefore devalues all existing money. There is a law against doing this already because of how massively damaging it is, and all this "solution" consists of is using a loophole to circumvent that law so we can screw over our economy, and by extension most of the worlds economy too. The fact that someone found a couple economists to back up the idea only shows how you can get an economist to say anything if it gets his name in the news.
 
2012-12-07 06:35:11 PM  

Debeo Summa Credo: Holocaust Agnostic: hdhale: "I like it," said Joseph Gagnon of the Peterson Institute for International Economics. "There's nothing that's obviously economically problematic about it."

Must be the Peterson Institute for International Economics for the Mentally Challenged. What a total farkwit.

A genius like you should be able to explain to us the problems then. They are so blatant after all.

Inflation is the obvious problem. But gagnon goes on to try to address that by saying the fed could offset the inflation by other measures.


Exactly how??? It just creates 2 trillion out of thin air and it enters circulation via paying for government expenses.
 
2012-12-07 06:36:29 PM  
Surely I'm not the only one that things shutting down less useful parts of the government wouldn't be such a bad thing?
 
2012-12-07 07:07:13 PM  
Are we finally ready to admit that it's all just make believe and that nothing short of shaking the etch a sketch and starting over is going to save the capitalist component? Are the rich at least ready to admit that all the make believe debt based on the make believe money is going to eventually screw their pooch, too? Are we really so desperate to pretend that 1950 v.2.0 is just around the corner if we keep printing bad IOUs?
 
2012-12-07 08:37:49 PM  

ChipNASA: Make them out of PLUTONIUM!!


Another Niven fan, I see.
 
2012-12-07 08:40:39 PM  

Bondith: They should use rhodium. It's currently worth more per mole than the other precious metals.


exoduspestcontrol.com.s59058.gridserver.com
 
2012-12-07 08:48:33 PM  

bunner: Are we finally ready to admit that it's all just make believe and that nothing short of shaking the etch a sketch and starting over is going to save the capitalist component? Are the rich at least ready to admit that all the make believe debt based on the make believe money is going to eventually screw their pooch, too? Are we really so desperate to pretend that 1950 v.2.0 is just around the corner if we keep printing bad IOUs?


Yes! But it ain't a bad IOU, it is legal free moneys, and the rest of the world has to suck it, because the have no choice.

It is nearly pure farking genius really.
 
2012-12-07 09:52:25 PM  

THX 1138: Well that pic I hotlinked lasted an entire 45 seconds. Sigh.


The replacement image does present interesting irony, however.
 
2012-12-07 09:58:38 PM  

semiotix: vygramul: EVERY economy relies on mass delusion.

Exactly. And this is why I love economics threads. I can't count how many times I've offered to trade a little bit of inherently precious gold, or a few boxes of shotgun shells, or a pallet of tinned meat, and all I want in return are a few of those worthless scraps of colored paper that the other guy just told me are completely valueless.

So far, no takers. In fact, from what I've seen of gold-bugs and other fiat-money-conspiracists, they're probably more likely to stab me in the throat for trying to take their debased, worthless pieces of illegal government scrip (etc. etc.) than anybody else.


How many of my worthless scraps of coloured paper would you wish to receive in exchange for how many shotgun shells?
 
2012-12-07 10:33:33 PM  
The President doesn't even need to do that.

The debt ceiling is blatantly unconstitutional, he can just keep spending and ignore the debt ceiling so long as Congress has budgeted the money.

Amendment 14, Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
 
2012-12-07 10:55:24 PM  
pavlopoulos.files.wordpress.com

I love the symbolism of this bill. Front: Worth as much as a pile of rocks. Back: U Wet? I'm horny.
 
2012-12-07 11:07:35 PM  
someone taking a thought experiment seriously? how interesting.
 
2012-12-07 11:08:19 PM  
What is in the TFA is functionally the same as printing paper money.

semiotix: vygramul: EVERY economy relies on mass delusion.

Exactly. And this is why I love economics threads. I can't count how many times I've offered to trade a little bit of inherently precious gold, or a few boxes of shotgun shells, or a pallet of tinned meat, and all I want in return are a few of those worthless scraps of colored paper that the other guy just told me are completely valueless.

So far, no takers. In fact, from what I've seen of gold-bugs and other fiat-money-conspiracists, they're probably more likely to stab me in the throat for trying to take their debased, worthless pieces of illegal government scrip (etc. etc.) than anybody else.


I'll gladly buy all the gold you want to sell me at $250 (in federal reserve notes) for every ozt. Oddly in every one of these threads nobody wants to sell me gold, the shiny metal they tell me has no intrinsic value at the price I offer in the pieces of paper they tell me I should have more faith in. I don't have any idea why except for the fact that they can get more paper notes from someone else. Which is the only reason you would get turned down, people can get more gold, meat, shells, whatever from someone else.

Even if a person believes paper has no real value, a person only has so much of it to trade and he's going to take the best deal to get what he does value from people who think the paper is better.
 
2012-12-07 11:09:03 PM  

boom: It is nearly pure farking genius really.


It's a mass delusion stapled to a con, is what it is.
 
2012-12-08 12:03:10 AM  
According to a reputable source, there isn't enough platinum to do that. Most of the world's supply was eaten by dragons to allow them to breathe fire.

img225.imageshack.us
 
2012-12-08 12:51:28 AM  

leadmetal: What is in the TFA is functionally the same as printing paper money.

semiotix: vygramul: EVERY economy relies on mass delusion.

Exactly. And this is why I love economics threads. I can't count how many times I've offered to trade a little bit of inherently precious gold, or a few boxes of shotgun shells, or a pallet of tinned meat, and all I want in return are a few of those worthless scraps of colored paper that the other guy just told me are completely valueless.

So far, no takers. In fact, from what I've seen of gold-bugs and other fiat-money-conspiracists, they're probably more likely to stab me in the throat for trying to take their debased, worthless pieces of illegal government scrip (etc. etc.) than anybody else.

I'll gladly buy all the gold you want to sell me at $250 (in federal reserve notes) for every ozt. Oddly in every one of these threads nobody wants to sell me gold, the shiny metal they tell me has no intrinsic value at the price I offer in the pieces of paper they tell me I should have more faith in. I don't have any idea why except for the fact that they can get more paper notes from someone else. Which is the only reason you would get turned down, people can get more gold, meat, shells, whatever from someone else.

Even if a person believes paper has no real value, a person only has so much of it to trade and he's going to take the best deal to get what he does value from people who think the paper is better.


So now you're saying it's exactly the same as fiat currency. Congratulations, you've come a long way.
 
2012-12-08 05:24:46 AM  

vygramul: leadmetal: What is in the TFA is functionally the same as printing paper money.

semiotix: vygramul: EVERY economy relies on mass delusion.

Exactly. And this is why I love economics threads. I can't count how many times I've offered to trade a little bit of inherently precious gold, or a few boxes of shotgun shells, or a pallet of tinned meat, and all I want in return are a few of those worthless scraps of colored paper that the other guy just told me are completely valueless.

So far, no takers. In fact, from what I've seen of gold-bugs and other fiat-money-conspiracists, they're probably more likely to stab me in the throat for trying to take their debased, worthless pieces of illegal government scrip (etc. etc.) than anybody else.

I'll gladly buy all the gold you want to sell me at $250 (in federal reserve notes) for every ozt. Oddly in every one of these threads nobody wants to sell me gold, the shiny metal they tell me has no intrinsic value at the price I offer in the pieces of paper they tell me I should have more faith in. I don't have any idea why except for the fact that they can get more paper notes from someone else. Which is the only reason you would get turned down, people can get more gold, meat, shells, whatever from someone else.

Even if a person believes paper has no real value, a person only has so much of it to trade and he's going to take the best deal to get what he does value from people who think the paper is better.

So now you're saying it's exactly the same as fiat currency. Congratulations, you've come a long way.


Once thing I have learned on the various informational exchanges in the Internet is few people have any real grasp of monetary theory. I am not saying that I do, but I know that I do not the certainly many other people have. One thing I do understand very clearly is money never stops. Money is much like electricity and water systems, it has to flow under pressure. It is a representation of the goods and services available to exchange in an economy, and it does not represent some zero sum game.
 
2012-12-08 08:01:32 AM  
I...seem to recall
Bo Gritz talking quite earnestly about this somewhere around 1991 or so.

I think he even mentioned pot-metal as the prospective coin's material as well.

Wouldn't it be lulzy if Obama took this idea just seriously enough to discuss it, even though he ended up not going any further with it, and the tea party got wind of it?
 
2012-12-08 09:58:21 AM  

LS1Bird: [pavlopoulos.files.wordpress.com image 410x412]

I love the symbolism of this bill. Front: Worth as much as a pile of rocks. Back: U Wet? I'm horny.


no it's worth $100 trillion and that's exactly what the US should be doing right now.
 
2012-12-08 12:23:10 PM  

bunner: Are we finally ready to admit that it's all just make believe and that nothing short of shaking the etch a sketch and starting over is going to save the capitalist component? Are the rich at least ready to admit that all the make believe debt based on the make believe money is going to eventually screw their pooch, too? Are we really so desperate to pretend that 1950 v.2.0 is just around the corner if we keep printing bad IOUs?


no, the con still works
/when all of the people, all of the time, etc., then we need a new con
 
2012-12-08 01:00:42 PM  

Dimensio: How many of my worthless scraps of coloured paper would you wish to receive in exchange for how many shotgun shells?


Let's say, one hundred fake worthless paper dollars per shell. I think that's pretty generous. I mean, that shell is useful. You could feed your family with the bird or varmint you shot with it. All I'm getting is worthless paper!

leadmetal: Even if a person believes paper has no real value, a person only has so much of it to trade and he's going to take the best deal to get what he does value from people who think the paper is better.


I don't know how to break this to you, but that's exactly the same as valuing it yourself. Look in the mirror. The grim face of fiat currency stares back at you!

It makes absolutely no difference whether you regard the value of a thing as intrinsic ("shiny gold is always always always valuable no matter what") or extrinsic ("the fools down at the grocery store will give me groceries in trade for this colored paper, so I'd better get as much colored paper as I can").

Incidentally, I reject your offer to buy my gold at 250 paper dollars per troy ounce, because I too acknowledge the extrinsic value of paper money (and gold!). However, if that's anywhere close to your selling price, then fark me, let's do business RIGHT NOW. ;)
 
2012-12-08 01:58:37 PM  

arentol: What is being proposed here as a "better" solution is precisely the same thing as printing 2 trillion in cash and then using that cash to pay back our creditors. It doesn't matter what physical form the money is, it is still generated from thin air and therefore devalues all existing money. There is a law against doing this already because of how massively damaging it is, and all this "solution" consists of is using a loophole to circumvent that law so we can screw over our economy, and by extension most of the worlds economy too. The fact that someone found a couple economists to back up the idea only shows how you can get an economist to say anything if it gets his name in the news.


Okay. Let's say every dollar in the world magically twinned itself overnight. Nobody planned it, no act of Congress or the Fed authorized it--it just kind of happened. Boom, everyone's dollar is worth half as much. Prices double on the spot. I agree.

That is not how this would work.

$2T in newly-created money would indeed (gradually) pour out of the Treasury's coffers and into the economy without an equivalent amount first having been sucked out of circulation by bond payments. However, there exists a thing known as the Federal Reserve Bank of the United States, a major function of which is to make sure that inflation doesn't get too high. It has three traditional means of taking money out of circulation, and one very significant nontraditional option.

The three usual ways are:

• raising the discount rate (the rate that the Fed charges commercial banks)
• raising the reserve requirement (the percentage of their outstanding loan balance that commercial banks need to keep locked away)
• raising the interbank loan rate (the rate that banks charge one another)

Now, possibly the Fed couldn't fully absorb all $2T that way (although very possibly it could, and in any event it could make a big damn dent in it.) Fortunately, the Fed is sitting on more than $2T in securities it bought through quantitative easing during the recession. About $2.618T, as of earlier this week. Selling these would suck money out of circulation just as effectively as the Treasury selling bonds... because a lot of that $2T is in US bonds.

They wouldn't even have to sell them at fire-sale prices. Stupid coin shenanigans aside, the world is still all shutupandtakemymoney.jpg when it comes to US government debt.

This will work once. Maybe twice. Beyond that, yeah, it is possible to introduce more new money than you can easily take out. It's not a permanent solution, but it is absolutely a solution for stupid manufactured crises of $2T or less.

There are a bunch of articles online to this effect, if you're curious, but I guess there's really no overcoming the "you can find someone to argue anything" tactic.
 
2012-12-08 09:28:38 PM  
OK, this is a volatile image on a sale site, it's probly gonna go POOF real quick, I didn't feel like stealing it, and so.....copy/pasta:

http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/m0Vp6ZduGKjaFPw_vKKz7fg.jpg

SFW, natch.


It's a very nice silver coin with Apollo 11's Eagle on it, and it'd make a simply dandy design for the $2 trillion platinum supercoins.

/just thought I'd toss that in...
 
2012-12-09 12:17:17 AM  
Bonus, you could use them to play tiddlywinks!
 
2012-12-09 01:02:18 AM  

JackieRabbit: Huck And Molly Ziegler: I'm just happy to see the federal government could solve the problem along the lines of what I've recommended for a long time: Under cover of darkness, and without telling anyone, a crew fires up the machinery at one of our paper-money-making plants and churns out a trillion or so dollars.
Those dollars go into circulation, everybody has more money, they can pay more for stuff - and tax revenue goes up.
The important thing is, the gov't CAN'T TELL anyone they did this, because otherwise people would just run around whining about "inflation," "wheelbarrows" and "Germany."

You're welcome.

You've never studied macroeconomics have you? The government tried this stupid trick back in the lat 1970s and early 1980s in an attempt to end a recession. All it did was create double-digit inflation that took almost six years to get under control. The Fed must balance how much money is in circulation based on GDP to keep inflation in check.



The gov minted money like crazy from about 2002 to 2006 or later. Banks and stores alike were giving out brand new bills with sequential numbers, all the time.
 
2012-12-09 01:34:41 AM  

semiotix: (I.e., do things cost 10.5 times what they did in 1983?)


Land does,
 
2012-12-09 11:01:55 AM  
Psst, wanna buy a knockoff? The Franklin Mint has you covered in 1micon of precious Platinum with a stand up Plutonium plated dollar sign, but wait!

Just take the forged bills out of circulation and you solve more than this problem.
There is no cure other than reissuing the currency. Offshore bank accounts need not apply.
 
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