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(Detroit Free Press)   11AM: Michigan Republicans introduce right-to-work legislation. 9PM: After locking Capitol doors, bill forced through lame-duck sessions of both state houses. Bonus: "right to work" classified as appropriations, so voters can't overturn it   (freep.com) divider line 265
    More: Asinine, capitols, Lansing, Michigan, Republican, appropriations, legislation, union shops, Senate passed  
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2709 clicks; posted to Politics » on 07 Dec 2012 at 11:41 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-07 12:40:11 PM

Mentat: You provide an attractive alternative to unions in order to divide the workers and weaken the unions


That, unfortunately, is the outcome of free choice.

The workers are free to make bad choices.

If the unions are so great, then why would workers not join them?
 
2012-12-07 12:41:06 PM
Dumbass working class people never learn. If you want to vote for Republicans because of the guns and the gheys you might want to look at their plans for you.
 
2012-12-07 12:41:53 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: "spmkk: Yes, it very much DOES have to do with a right that relates to working. Right-to-work protects my right to trade my labor for money without having to enter into a forced contract with a third-party political entity (and yes, it is political) that does not employ me.

Is someone forcing you to accept a job under those conditions? Are you prevented for working someplace else that does not have those requirements?"



Uh...yeah. If "someplace else" doesn't have a position open, I am forced to accept a job under those conditions. In a RTW state, every place would not have those requirements, so (provided there are openings in the job market at all) I would never be faced with a choice between accepting forced union membership/dues and not being allowed to earn a living. And, as I said before, I would never be faced with a strike situation where, despite my membership in the union, I would still be denied the right to earn a living.


Baz744: "You will never be forced to join a union, even in a non-right-to-work state."


Right - not unless I want to, say, get a job or something.


Baz744: "However, in a right-to-work state, you will have the government forcibly deprive you of the freedom to work a closed shop job."


What is this I don't even
 
2012-12-07 12:42:21 PM

lohphat: The workers are free to make bad choices.


As long as that choice is to work under a closed shop union contract.
 
2012-12-07 12:43:18 PM

ha-ha-guy: Granholm sucked terribly at getting us any kind of federal funding for reconstruction projects in Detroit or federal attention to the fact a good part of the Detroit metro area was circling the drain. She also did little to address corruption issues on the Detroit city council despite having control the State Police and their investigative arm.


Granholm was horrible for the state. 'In 5 years you'll be blown away." Yeah, right Jen...along with all the jobs and the tumbleweeds rolling through the state.

Democrats defending her come off as loons...it's almost as bad as Republicans defending Bush.
 
2012-12-07 12:44:00 PM

Baz744: It's a kind of "freeloader effect." Why join the union, when other people pay for it, and you benefit from it? Which is why unions bargain for closed-shops.


Yet the Unions also exploit people. For example my niece works as a Starbucks kiosk in Meijer. She pays union dues due to it being a Meijer and the agreements Meijer has, but her wages ar not hire than if she was just made coffee at the mall Starbucks. Actually they're lower in that the union takes off the top.

The union ignores the needs of all the teenagers who work in Meijer because they know they're a transient workforce who will go off to college or the like and they have no need to get long term loyalty out of them. They have it set up to the point where she can't even vote because the rule is need to be there for X period of time to vote.

At the end of the day a closed shop also allows in an inner cadre of long term workers to fund their lobbying for benefits off the back of temporary/season/etc workers who are forced to pay into the union fund. The union doesn't have to do anything for them because in a year turnover will have replaced them.
 
2012-12-07 12:45:16 PM

lohphat: Mentat: You provide an attractive alternative to unions in order to divide the workers and weaken the unions

That, unfortunately, is the outcome of free choice.

The workers are free to make bad choices.

If the unions are so great, then why would workers not join them?


Because in RTW states they get the benefits the union fights for without having to pay the dues...
 
2012-12-07 12:45:34 PM
I don't see what the big deal is... I started teaching part time at a community college a year ago and had to become a member of the union (MCCC). Dues are reasonable and I even got a raise this year. So far, I have no complaints about the union.

I've been self-employed for so long, I'm actually enjoying being part of a union. In fact, I'm going to pick up a few more classes to teach next year.
 
2012-12-07 12:46:09 PM

USA Prime Credit Peggy: I'm not in a Union and I get paid great with good benefits. No pointless Union dues.

Suckers!


Until your boss come to you and says you get to train your new H1B visa replacement. Then with no union to back you
up you lose your job. Sucker.
 
2012-12-07 12:46:26 PM

Undermining the ability of private orgs like unions to address income inequality forces Americans to allow the govt to do it. Surprise!

- David Waldman (@KagroX) November 30, 2012
 
2012-12-07 12:46:39 PM
Good god people...

Union dues help fund democratic campaigns.

That is all these laws are about.

And it all is because of the gheys and abortion. Thank religion.
 
2012-12-07 12:47:03 PM

spmkk: Uh...yeah. If "someplace else" doesn't have a position open, I am forced to accept a job under those conditions.



No you aren't. You do not have to accept that job. You may chose to accept it as the least bad option available to you, but that is true of a myriad conditions on employment, such as wages, hours and benefits.
 
2012-12-07 12:47:19 PM

minoridiot: I'm not entirely sure why folks are concerned about Right to Work laws. Right to Work laws don't ban unions. I'm in a Right to Work state, and I worked in a union shop in the 80's. What the Right to Work laws do is give the employee freedom of choice whether to join a union or not.


Its like vaccines... if a few people choose not to be in a union, they still receive most of the benefit of the union, without being in it. If a large percentage of people choose not to be in them, then the union is no longer effective.

currently, if you work a union job, but want to not be in a union - that is allowed - there is just no financial incentive for it.

You really want it to be right to work - then companies need to start paying the people who aren't in unions less and give them less healthcare, since they aren't working for it. Not being in a union but still expecting to get all the benefits of a union is just freeloading.
 
2012-12-07 12:47:27 PM

ha-ha-guy: At the end of the day a closed shop also allows in an inner cadre of long term workers to fund their lobbying for benefits off the back of temporary/season/etc workers who are forced to pay into the union fund. The union doesn't have to do anything for them because in a year turnover will have replaced them.


No one ever said unions didn't have problems.
Getting rid of them entirely isn't the answer. "Right to Work" is exactly that, hidden beneath language designed to appeal to the bootstrappy.
 
2012-12-07 12:47:57 PM

sparkeyjames: USA Prime Credit Peggy: I'm not in a Union and I get paid great with good benefits. No pointless Union dues.

Suckers!

Until your boss come to you and says you get to train your new H1B visa replacement. Then with no union to back you
up you lose your job. Sucker.


Good thing I'm indispensable to my company. If my boss is coming to me, it's to give me a raise.
 
2012-12-07 12:49:02 PM
I think unions would be much more attractive if the actually provided a benefit to the workers instead of creating an oligarchy of power for the leaders to collude and control labor supply.

Unions should protect the integrity of the wokers' profession and not blindly protect incompetence.

I've never been a union member but would join if it was clear the company was not interested in safety or wasn't a meritocracy, i.e. a pilot's union. But even in that case, I've seen union pilots protected by their union to preserve their seniority when it's clear they shouldn't be a pilot any longer. Simply put: Don't protect morons.
 
2012-12-07 12:49:36 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: No you aren't. You do not have to accept that job. You may chose to accept it as the least bad option available to you, but that is true of a myriad conditions on employment, such as wages, hours and benefits.


I'm sure you've noticed.

Wal-Mart pays shiat = You don't have to work there. Find another job!
Unions labor contracts exist = I can't find a job anywhere! I'm prohibited from making a living!
 
2012-12-07 12:51:31 PM

USA Prime Credit Peggy: Good thing I'm indispensable to my company. If my boss is coming to me, it's to give me a raisefark you. I've got mine.


The look on your face will be priceless when your job just went to Ghopal from Bhopal.
 
2012-12-07 12:51:48 PM

lohphat: I think unions would be much more attractive if


lohphat: Unions should


lohphat: I've never been a union member but


el oh el
 
2012-12-07 12:52:11 PM

qorkfiend: lohphat: Mentat: You provide an attractive alternative to unions in order to divide the workers and weaken the unions

That, unfortunately, is the outcome of free choice.

The workers are free to make bad choices.

If the unions are so great, then why would workers not join them?

Because in RTW states they get the benefits the union fights for without having to pay the dues...


Sometimes that's how the free market works. Perhaps if the unions provided those benefits and the the company might make it more attractive, e.g. supplemental insurance, training, daycare, etc.
 
2012-12-07 12:52:19 PM

USA Prime Credit Peggy: sparkeyjames: USA Prime Credit Peggy: I'm not in a Union and I get paid great with good benefits. No pointless Union dues.

Suckers!

Until your boss come to you and says you get to train your new H1B visa replacement. Then with no union to back you
up you lose your job. Sucker.

Good thing I'm indispensable to my company. If my boss is coming to me, it's to give me a raise.


You mean you actually provide a benefit to your employer? Don't get me started on the union guys on the Caterpillar shop floor.

Oh you raised your voice at me? Grievance
You want me to stay a bit later today to finish that project up? WHERE'S MY STEWARD?

I have tons of great stories.
 
2012-12-07 12:52:25 PM
Wow. These assholes don't even want to pretend like this is a democracy.
 
2012-12-07 12:52:32 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: ha-ha-guy: At the end of the day a closed shop also allows in an inner cadre of long term workers to fund their lobbying for benefits off the back of temporary/season/etc workers who are forced to pay into the union fund. The union doesn't have to do anything for them because in a year turnover will have replaced them.

No one ever said unions didn't have problems.
Getting rid of them entirely isn't the answer. "Right to Work" is exactly that, hidden beneath language designed to appeal to the bootstrappy.


Bullshiat. Assuming the union competes and shows why it has value to all employees, the majority of them will sign up and support it. It wasn't that long ago my grandfather was barricaded inside a GM plant with the National Guard outside. They shut off the heat and water, so they made a fire on the line and sang Christmas Carols while the wives snuck food in. If the union could sell my family on which facing off against the National Guard was a good idea, they can sell people on reasons to give up a few percent off their paycheck.

Yes you'll have X% who freeload, but that shouldn't be enough to cripple the union. It's worth to avoid the union being able to play favorites with the workforce if they want dues from everyone . The union president moves from needing to keep 51% of his voters happier, to keeping 80+% of his shop happy if he wants to see the dues stream keep coming in.
 
2012-12-07 12:54:28 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: From 1973 to 2007, private sector union membership in the United States declined from 34 to 8 percent for men and from 16 to 6 percent for women. During this period, inequality in hourly wages increased by over 40 percent. We report a decomposition, relating rising inequality to the union wage distribution's shrinking weight. We argue that unions helped institutionalize norms of equity, reducing the dispersion of nonunion wages in highly unionized regions and industries. Accounting for unions' effect on union and nonunion wages suggests that the decline of organized labor explains a fifth to a third of the growth in inequality-an effect comparable to the growing stratification of wages by education. Link


Even more strikingly, the decline in membership in the middle class is lockstep with the decline in membership in unions.
"Right to work" - if it's labeled by a Republican, expect the results to be the direct opposite.

/See what the Republicans did when they convinced you that unions are evil and exist only to protect the lazy?
//They got you to screw yourselves and your own children, people.
///Sorry, that pun really was unintentional. Are you out there, coco e?
 
2012-12-07 12:55:56 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: lohphat: I think unions would be much more attractive if

lohphat: Unions should

lohphat: I've never been a union member but

el oh el


So far in my life I've not belonged to a union and have done fine. I've seen good unions and bad ones that offer no protection for their members. To me I think in some cases they're a must but in others the worker is in control already and one isn't needed.
 
2012-12-07 12:56:00 PM

joness0154: Oh you raised your voice at me? Grievance


My God, they demand to be treated with respect? You need to put those people in their place.
 
2012-12-07 12:59:04 PM

joness0154: I have tons of great stories.


My favorite was as a white collar engineer I'm non union. My grandfather was involved in a bunch of efforts to unionize in the GM assemblies in Flint and Saginaw. One time when the union was on strike I'm crossing the picket line into the Tech Center. Grandpa is riding shotgun and sees the union guys sitting on lawn chairs and drinking beer, signs leaned against the fence. He hops out of my car and starts screaming at them "Of course GM wants to pay you shiat, look how farking lazy and worthless you are. Drunk and sitting around like farking Soviet Communists on the picket line...back in my day...blah blah blah...The Battle of Bulls Run...blah blah blah...lazy worthless shiats". The expression on their face was priceless.

My least favorite story was when I down at a truck plant trying to diagnosis an intermittent software bug. I'm out in the lot, hooking my scan tool up to a Tahoe and some UAW guy comes out and throws a fit because we need union help to even touch the vehicles. So we end up with a guy whose job is to bolt doors onto cars and he doesn't even a GED. They pull him off the line, then call in a new guy at OT rates to cover for his shift. He is supposed to help us debug software. His only use was sending him to pick up the pizzas we ordered.
 
2012-12-07 12:59:37 PM

lohphat: So far in my life I've not belonged to a union and have done fine. I've seen good unions and bad ones that offer no protection for their members. To me I think in some cases they're a must but in others the worker is in control already and one isn't needed.


You opened with how unions don't actually provide a benefit to the worker and instead blindly protect incompetence, then admitted you've never been in one.

Now you're saying you've seen good and bad unions, and yeah maybe they do serve some purpose. This is what's known as walking it back. Next time just don't bother with the first part and you'll save yourself the trouble.
 
2012-12-07 01:00:17 PM

Dancin_In_Anson: minoridiot: What the Right to Work laws do is give the employee freedom of choice whether to join a union or not.

Freedom of choice? What country do you think this is?


They can choose to find a job with no union presence. You know, like how you say if you don't like your job you should quit and not unionize. Choices are grand.
 
2012-12-07 01:00:32 PM

GAT_00: Funny, I've never seen you side against the Republicans or with the Democrats. You can claim you're independent all you want, but your words speak for themselves.


You're either a magnificent troll, sleeping, have a selective memory, or just plain stupid.

http://www.fark.com/comments/7461009/81002173#c81002173
http://www.fark.com/comments/7459747/80989614#c80989614
http://www.fark.com/comments/7452451/80910556#c80910556
http://www.fark.com/comments/7440526/80780215#c80780215
http://www.fark.com/comments/7435985/80717009#c80717009
http://www.fark.com/comments/7429007/80633292#c80633292
http://www.fark.com/comments/7425839/80581489#c80581489
http://www.fark.com/comments/7424496/80569755#c80569755
http://www.fark.com/comments/7421936/80531438#c80531438
http://www.fark.com/comments/7417929/80482330#c80482330
 
2012-12-07 01:01:08 PM
My SO is an auto tech in a RTW shop. They are paid by the job, so if no work - no pay. There RTW means you have the right to work 10 hr/day -including Saturday - whether there are vehicles to work on or not. Managment has the right to take away your rotating day off and replace it with a half day that we also have the right to take away anytime we want. Good luck trying to schedule any doc or dentist appointments when you can't count on any time off. Don't like it- get a different job in an area where there aren't any. And mgmt doesn't understand why they can't keep techs.

/fark RTW
 
2012-12-07 01:01:58 PM

lohphat: To me I think in some cases they're a must but in others the worker is in control already


What cases might those be?
 
2012-12-07 01:02:33 PM

ha-ha-guy: Bullshiat.


Hardly.
Every freeloader gives the employer more ability to work around the union, further diminishing and marginalizing them. It was never anything but a way to break the union, hidden in bootstrappy language.
 
2012-12-07 01:04:21 PM
You elect Republicans to office, you get what you deserve.

/Trust me. I live in Florida
 
2012-12-07 01:06:02 PM

lohphat: Mentat: You provide an attractive alternative to unions in order to divide the workers and weaken the unions

That, unfortunately, is the outcome of free choice.

The workers are free to make bad choices.

If the unions are so great, then why would workers not join them?


Because right wing propagandists tell them the union is worse, then tell them that paying union dues decreases their paycheck, without mentioning the good stuff.
 
2012-12-07 01:06:20 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: USA Prime Credit Peggy: Good thing I'm indispensable to my company. If my boss is coming to me, it's to give me a raisefark you. I've got mine.


Eh? So I'm a bad guy because I went to school, worked my ass off, and learned an indispensable trade? I didn't get "gifted" mine, I earned it in a way that anyone else could, too.
 
2012-12-07 01:06:38 PM

redheadstepchild: My SO is an auto tech in a RTW shop. They are paid by the job, so if no work - no pay. There RTW means you have the right to work 10 hr/day -including Saturday - whether there are vehicles to work on or not. Managment has the right to take away your rotating day off and replace it with a half day that we also have the right to take away anytime we want. Good luck trying to schedule any doc or dentist appointments when you can't count on any time off. Don't like it- get a different job in an area where there aren't any. And mgmt doesn't understand why they can't keep techs.

/fark RTW


If only there were some sort of organization these techs could form at their workplace if conditions are as bad as you make it seem.....?
 
2012-12-07 01:06:41 PM

redheadstepchild: My SO is an auto tech in a RTW shop. They are paid by the job, so if no work - no pay. There RTW means you have the right to work 10 hr/day -including Saturday - whether there are vehicles to work on or not. Managment has the right to take away your rotating day off and replace it with a half day that we also have the right to take away anytime we want. Good luck trying to schedule any doc or dentist appointments when you can't count on any time off. Don't like it- get a different job in an area where there aren't any. And mgmt doesn't understand why they can't keep techs.

/fark RTW


So does your SO (and his coworkers) realize that while the state may be RTW, they can still have a mass strike and union or demand concessions? Instead of just quitting one at a time and letting management replace them, all walk off at the same time.

The fact it is RTW doesn't matter here. People picket line cross or scab in union states all the time. Once the union is forced, RTW will make it have to work harder to keep membership and get new employees in the boat, but it no way, shape, or form prevents your SO and his coworkers for standing on the sidewalk with signs protesting unfair practices.

/I'm betting the fact that a lot of the techs have shiat for savings prevents them from doing that though
 
2012-12-07 01:06:45 PM
"Right-to-work" states, for some reason, have lower wages, lower standards of living, lower levels of education, and higher rates of poverty and people on government assistance.
 
2012-12-07 01:07:50 PM

USA Prime Credit Peggy: Eh? So I'm a bad guy because I went to school, worked my ass off, and learned an indispensable trade? I didn't get "gifted" mine, I earned it in a way that anyone else could, too.


Yes, you're a selfish prick. How do you live with yourself?
 
2012-12-07 01:07:56 PM

PreMortem: That being said, I have no problem with right to work laws (I'm in a union). But if someone decides to not pay dues, they still get all the benefits and rights as a due paying member. I'd say if you don't want to pay union dues, fine... negotiate your own wages and benefits.


All the benefits of union membership without the dues? These anti-union guys sound like real bootstrappers eh?
 
2012-12-07 01:10:15 PM

Philip Francis Queeg: joness0154: Oh you raised your voice at me? Grievance

My God, they demand to be treated with respect? You need to put those people in their place.


Respect is earned. Regularly taking 25+ minute breaks when your union only negotiated 15 minute breaks and coming in late to work is going to get you yelled at.

If you're too soft to take a little bit of "get back to work", maybe working on a shop floor isn't for you.
 
2012-12-07 01:10:18 PM
/I'm betting the fact that a lot of the techs have shiat for savings prevents them from doing that though

That exactly. The only ones who don't quit after a month or so, are the ones who can't afford to quit. No chance of a union.
 
2012-12-07 01:10:29 PM

USA Prime Credit Peggy: I earned it in a way that anyone else could, too.


LOL
 
2012-12-07 01:14:36 PM

Weaver95: red5ish: Weaver95: red5ish: When a lame duck legislation locks the doors and starts to pass "appropriation bills" they are not acting in the interests of the people.

it seems to be needlessly antagonistic. are they TRYING to kick off a riot?!

They are not doing it to be antagonistic, they are doing it because they are trying to get away with passing legislation that serves the special interests that bankroll them. This type of behavior is why businesses have security walk employees out of the building after they've been laid off.

I guess I just expected legislators to behave themselves and/or act honorably. yeah, yeah...I know. stupid of me.


I'm surprised that most of this thread is taken up by people discussing the pros and cons of this legislation when the real issue is the manner in which it is being pushed into law. What you characterized as "needlessly antagonistic" also qualifies as being suspiciously sleazy and anti-democratic. The Michigan Republicans have been pushing hard against democracy for the last few years - their taking over towns and appointing what amount to dictators in place elected officials comes to mind - and passing legislation behind locked doors is part and parcel of their plutocratic attitude. Michigan Republicans are actively undermining the democratic process; it's an ugly story that deserves a lot of sunlight.
 
2012-12-07 01:16:43 PM

joness0154: If only there were some sort of organization these techs could form at their workplace if conditions are as bad as you make it seem.....?


The deal is, everything is a union utopia until RTW comes along. The case totally wasn't that the union in question was some corrupt, dead wood, organization that existed solely based on inertia, accomplishments pre 1970s, and closed shop that the employees loathed only slightly less than their employer. When everyone drops the union dues it isn't the workers giving the middle finger to say Ron Gettlefinger, the former UAW head who somehow mismanaged (or embezzled) their strike fund so when they went on strike in the mids 2000s they had enough money to pay for 2 days worth of striking, it is the workers being dumb and being exploited by the capitalists.

What likely happens in Michigan, is RTW lets the UAW balkanize. King is that popular in a lot of assemblies and I bet of lot people will delist from the UAW but they still are pro Union so another one will spring up.

/Lordstown Ohio's local would love for this to be passed so they can flee the UAW en masse after it tried to fark them in favor of other assemblies during the bankruptcy
 
2012-12-07 01:17:07 PM

USA Prime Credit Peggy: Eh? So I'm a bad guy because I went to school, worked my ass off, and learned an indispensable trade? I didn't get "gifted" mine, I earned it in a way that anyone else could, too.


No, you're a bad guy for assuming everyone else hasn't worked as hard as you and that you don't need to care about their plight.
Like I said, the look on your face will be priceless when you're replaced by something cheaper. Probably look a shade paler than I did when it happened to me.
 
2012-12-07 01:18:22 PM

ha-ha-guy: The deal is, everything is a union utopia until RTW comes along.


No one is saying that you ignorant prole.
 
2012-12-07 01:19:35 PM

joness0154: Philip Francis Queeg: joness0154: Oh you raised your voice at me? Grievance

My God, they demand to be treated with respect? You need to put those people in their place.

Respect is earned. Regularly taking 25+ minute breaks when your union only negotiated 15 minute breaks and coming in late to work is going to get you yelled at.

If you're too soft to take a little bit of "get back to work", maybe working on a shop floor isn't for you.


So what you are saying is that you are a really terrible manager. Perhaps your company can find someone who is capable of enforcing the rules without resorting to shouting after the fact.
 
2012-12-07 01:20:50 PM

Sergeant Grumbles: USA Prime Credit Peggy: Eh? So I'm a bad guy because I went to school, worked my ass off, and learned an indispensable trade? I didn't get "gifted" mine, I earned it in a way that anyone else could, too.

No, you're a bad guy for assuming everyone else hasn't worked as hard as you and that you don't need to care about their plight.
Like I said, the look on your face will be priceless when you're replaced by something cheaper. Probably look a shade paler than I did when it happened to me.


I didn't say people don't work as hard as me. And I also didn't say I don't care about other people's plights.

I just don't agree that forcing people to join Unions in order to work at a certain business is necessarily what will help them through said plight.
 
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