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(Talking Points Memo)   Fight for the debt ceiling once more, Democrats? Or we gonna have the immediate collapse of the US economy, followed by Japan falling into the sea, followed by a worldwide depression the likes of which no mortal can imagine, followed by week two?   (tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 68
    More: Amusing, Democrats, Japan, Business Roundtable, debt limit, House Minority Leader, Nancy Pelosi  
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1287 clicks; posted to Politics » on 06 Dec 2012 at 10:29 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-06 09:56:15 AM
I'm encouraged by Obama saying he just won't do it this time, but I'm interested in what that means, practically. Will he order Geithner to print the $1T coin?
 
2012-12-06 10:24:58 AM

DamnYankees: I'm encouraged by Obama saying he just won't do it this time, but I'm interested in what that means, practically. Will he order Geithner to print the $1T coin?


Nah, Republicans will cave. For all their bluster, they can't fathom a world where they get blamed for the destruction of the US.

/woot! Second TWW referenced headline greened!
//I kinda hope the "Libya, boy I dunno" headline goes to HOTY
 
2012-12-06 10:33:00 AM
Honest thoughts from GOP leaders:

While we bet all in with penis-goes-where-rape legislation, 4 years of obstructionism, and demonizing Obama to the point where we even believe the lies we created, the Democrats out maneuvered us. Now we must increase the debt limit or be viewed as collapsing the economy out of political spite. Then we must raise taxes on the wealthy or everyone's taxing will increase out of spite. This is what we get for having to embrace anti-intellectualism in order to keep our voters misinformed. This God Damn Tea Party we created will be the death of us.
 
2012-12-06 10:33:09 AM

somedude210: DamnYankees: I'm encouraged by Obama saying he just won't do it this time, but I'm interested in what that means, practically. Will he order Geithner to print the $1T coin?

Nah, Republicans will cave. For all their bluster, they can't fathom a world where they get blamed for the destruction of the US.


...no, they really don't care. They'll let the US burn, then blame B. HUSSEIN O(s)bama.
 
2012-12-06 10:35:00 AM
I'm really hoping Obama just pulls out the damn 14th Amendment solution and dares the GOP to sue him. The debt ceiling is a stupid anachronism that has never worked to slow down spending and only serves to let the minority grandstand about how they're the serious ones who really want to stop borrowing money.
 
2012-12-06 10:35:05 AM

somedude210: DamnYankees: I'm encouraged by Obama saying he just won't do it this time, but I'm interested in what that means, practically. Will he order Geithner to print the $1T coin?

Nah, Republicans will cave. For all their bluster, they can't fathom a world where they get blamed for the destruction of the US.


If they think they can blame Obama for it they'll do it no problem. During the campaign Ryan blamed Obama for the credit downgrade when the agency that did the downgrading said it was because of Congress.
 
2012-12-06 10:39:46 AM

DamnYankees: Will he order Geithner to print the $1T coin?


More on that $1T coin idea (and the overall sillyness of the debt limit) from Chris Hayes sitting in for Rachel Maddow.

Link
 
2012-12-06 10:40:38 AM

IlGreven: somedude210: DamnYankees: I'm encouraged by Obama saying he just won't do it this time, but I'm interested in what that means, practically. Will he order Geithner to print the $1T coin?

Nah, Republicans will cave. For all their bluster, they can't fathom a world where they get blamed for the destruction of the US.

...no, they really don't care. They'll let the US burn, then blame B. HUSSEIN O(s)bama.


I'm currently putting 10:1 odds on a Republican Congressman, Senator, or Presidential candidate calling him a n***er sometime in the next four years, and I'm putting 1:1 odds on a random Republican calling him a n***er in a town hall/debate/something similar in front of one of the above and them refusing to condemn said random Republican.
 
2012-12-06 10:41:43 AM

somedude210: Nah, Republicans will cave. For all their bluster, they can't fathom a world where they get blamed for the destruction of the US.


The GOP is not a rational actor right now. They will do it and they will go to their grave thinking it was the right thing to do no matter how much damage it causes.
 
2012-12-06 10:44:19 AM

TDWCom29: somedude210: DamnYankees: I'm encouraged by Obama saying he just won't do it this time, but I'm interested in what that means, practically. Will he order Geithner to print the $1T coin?

Nah, Republicans will cave. For all their bluster, they can't fathom a world where they get blamed for the destruction of the US.


If they think they can blame Obama for it they'll do it no problem. During the campaign Ryan blamed Obama for the credit downgrade when the agency that did the downgrading said it was because of Congress.


Ryan can claim it, Boehner can hope for it, McConnell can believe it...but that doesn't stop the reality that Americans blame the GOP for the last debt ceiling mess, and would blame the GOP for going over the cliff.

They can keep doing "teh maff" to make themselves feel better, but reality has an annoying way of HAI GUIZE WHATS GOING ON IN YOUR WORLD TONITE?
 
2012-12-06 10:45:24 AM
This is why I think the Democrats have to be completely hard-line about the cliff. It's much less dangerous, and if they are soft about it, it'll just encourage to Republicans to continue hostage taking. Absent the additional threat, I'm not sure what I'd think (though the Republican position is, of course, ridiculous).

I'm also really glad that Obama has apparently taken the position that the debt ceiling should be removed in a more permanent way. (Correct me if I'm wrong about this, I've only heard this second hand from Republicans complaining about it). Even if it doesn't happen, it's what should happen, and that being on the table can only be good.
 
2012-12-06 10:45:27 AM
Here's how Obama should've done it the first time around:

"I refuse to raise the ceiling unless we can match the amount in tax revenue"

The GOP would have been chanting in unison: "raise the ceiling, not our taxes", and voila.... flawless victory. But now the GOP owns the whole concept of "never raise the ceiling, no matter what", so I don't think that would fly this time around...
 
2012-12-06 10:46:43 AM
Merely having a debate over raising the debt limit is enormously dangerous for the U.S. economy. Not raising it is near-catastrophic, but just having the threat of not raising it is dangerous.

Which demonstrates how little some of our elected leaders actually know about the economy and the debt limit.

Example: Link
 
2012-12-06 10:48:11 AM

DeltaPunch: Here's how Obama should've done it the first time around:

"I refuse to raise the ceiling unless we can match the amount in tax revenue"


In order to prevent the very real possibility of enormous economic damage to the U.S. economy, nobody can suggest even the possibility that the debt limit won't be raised.
 
2012-12-06 10:48:22 AM

Nanny Statesman: This is why I think the Democrats have to be completely hard-line about the cliff. It's much less dangerous, and if they are soft about it, it'll just encourage to Republicans to continue hostage taking. Absent the additional threat, I'm not sure what I'd think (though the Republican position is, of course, ridiculous).

I'm also really glad that Obama has apparently taken the position that the debt ceiling should be removed in a more permanent way. (Correct me if I'm wrong about this, I've only heard this second hand from Republicans complaining about it). Even if it doesn't happen, it's what should happen, and that being on the table can only be good.


The debt ceiling increase has largely been a pro forma vote in the House since it was instituted. The consequences for not raising the ceiling are catastrophic to the economy, and the idea that one party is planning on taking our entire country hostage because of their poutrage suggests to me that they should not be in office.
 
2012-12-06 10:48:34 AM

Serious Black: I'm really hoping Obama just pulls out the damn 14th Amendment solution and dares the GOP to sue him. The debt ceiling is a stupid anachronism that has never worked to slow down spending and only serves to let the minority grandstand about how they're the serious ones who really want to stop borrowing money.


right on
 
2012-12-06 10:49:00 AM
Obama's long-game has always included stonewalling the GOP in his second term. That the GOP handed him a lanslide, just makes it sweeter.
 
2012-12-06 10:50:19 AM
if there's one thing I've learned from the last few months it's that the GOP isn't just bullshiating their base....they're bullshiating themselves.

I don't expect any rational moves from them in the foreseeable future.
Obama needs to play rough and accept that these guys are not going to do anything but obstruct and complain. They will not work with him and he must work around them. So they'll cry foul and run to fox with out of breath accusations...they'll do that no matter what. move on.
 
2012-12-06 10:51:41 AM
I would love to get to the point at which the credit agencies say that if the GOP wins congress in 2014 they will automatically downgrade our credit rating.
 
2012-12-06 10:52:09 AM

Dog Welder: The debt ceiling increase has largely been a pro forma vote in the House since it was instituted. The consequences for not raising the ceiling are catastrophic to the economy, and the idea that one party is planning on taking our entire country hostage because of their poutrage suggests to me that they should not be in office.


You are correct. Although I don't think they think they're taking the country hostage...I just don't think they understand what the debt ceiling is and what not raising it actually means.
 
2012-12-06 10:53:55 AM

Dusk-You-n-Me: More on that $1T coin idea (and the overall sillyness of the debt limit) from Chris Hayes sitting in for Rachel Maddow.

Link


Obama will probably pull the 14th amendment trigger first but the $1T coin trick would be an epic troll. Most preferable would for Obama to do both - declare the debt limit unconstitutional, have the Mint produce a pair of $1T coins to be deposited at the Treasury, then cut a $10K check to every US adult.
 
2012-12-06 10:55:15 AM
fark it. Let's go over the cliff. Those in Washington still alive with the balls to run for reelection will get voted out. fark all of them.
 
2012-12-06 10:57:02 AM

Dr Dreidel: TDWCom29: somedude210: DamnYankees: I'm encouraged by Obama saying he just won't do it this time, but I'm interested in what that means, practically. Will he order Geithner to print the $1T coin?

Nah, Republicans will cave. For all their bluster, they can't fathom a world where they get blamed for the destruction of the US.


If they think they can blame Obama for it they'll do it no problem. During the campaign Ryan blamed Obama for the credit downgrade when the agency that did the downgrading said it was because of Congress.

Ryan can claim it, Boehner can hope for it, McConnell can believe it...but that doesn't stop the reality that Americans blame the GOP for the last debt ceiling mess, and would blame the GOP for going over the cliff.

They can keep doing "teh maff" to make themselves feel better, but reality has an annoying way of HAI GUIZE WHATS GOING ON IN YOUR WORLD TONITE?


Reality matters to them? That's news to me. They'll have no problem taking down the country if they even just think they can somehow blame Obama for it.
 
2012-12-06 10:57:38 AM

DamnYankees: I'm encouraged by Obama saying he just won't do it this time, but I'm interested in what that means, practically. Will he order Geithner to print the $1T coin?


Canada has a $1M coin. You would just need a Million of these bad boys.

s1.reutersmedia.net
 
2012-12-06 10:58:42 AM

Trivia Jockey: DeltaPunch: Here's how Obama should've done it the first time around:

"I refuse to raise the ceiling unless we can match the amount in tax revenue"

In order to prevent the very real possibility of enormous economic damage to the U.S. economy, nobody can suggest even the possibility that the debt limit won't be raised.


Failure to raise the debt limit would indeed be catastrophic, but not immediately so. In its effect, it's not unlike Newt Gingrich's "shut down the government!" stunt. If he wants to play hardball, Obama could certainly call the Republicans' bluff, with plenty of time to pull back once the disloyal opposition realizes their nuts are in a vice. And while there are certainly some serious risks that accompany such a tactic, it would have the benefit of doing to Boehner's career exactly what Clinton did to Gingrich.
 
2012-12-06 10:58:53 AM

mrshowrules: Canada has a $1M coin. You would just need a Million of these bad boys.


That would be looney.
 
2012-12-06 10:59:21 AM

TDWCom29: Dr Dreidel: They can keep doing "teh maff" to make themselves feel better, but reality has an annoying way of HAI GUIZE WHATS GOING ON IN YOUR WORLD TONITE?

Reality matters to them? That's news to me. They'll have no problem taking down the country if they even just think they can somehow blame Obama for it.


They'll head over the cliff believing they have the public behind them. Then they will crash land at the bottom of a ravine while a pile of the public's scorn rains down upon them.

// watery, yellow scorn
 
2012-12-06 11:00:36 AM

unexplained bacon: if there's one thing I've learned from the last few months it's that the GOP isn't just bullshiating their base....they're bullshiating themselves.

I don't expect any rational moves from them in the foreseeable future.
Obama needs to play rough and accept that these guys are not going to do anything but obstruct and complain. They will not work with him and he must work around them. So they'll cry foul and run to fox with out of breath accusations...they'll do that no matter what. move on.


Like yesterday saying UN Treaty on the rights of disabled would allow the UN to interfere in how people raise their children. No one believes this. Rick Santorum doesn't believe it. They are just acting like a bunch of hateful assholes.
 
2012-12-06 11:01:40 AM
What I want to know is how these people circumvent statutory PAYGO when they pass spending bills that will make us require a debt ceiling increase. My understanding is that they have to explicitly waive it.

Do they do it by acclamation or something? Someone should make them do a role call on the waiver, then when this crap comes up, do a press release of the roll call names so blame falls on the right shoulders. None of this ".[blahblahblah]Approach to Hold President Obama Accountable"* for the debit ceiling crap.

Spending bills originate in the House, not in the Executive department. Its all your fault orange crybaby. Pay your credit card bills.

/* actual core the tite of Speaker Boehners press release on the last round debt ceiling
 
2012-12-06 11:10:56 AM
So I have this wispy, straw-like clown hair right now and it's really bothering me.
 
2012-12-06 11:12:13 AM

Trivia Jockey: mrshowrules: Canada has a $1M coin. You would just need a Million of these bad boys.

That would be looney.


How can you take a economic crisis seriously?

"The looney was down today"
"Oh, how sad for you!"

/loved that bit
 
2012-12-06 11:14:20 AM
Is it too much to expect that this is just part of a negotiatiions dance that eventually will lead to meaningful legislation that heads off automatic budget cuts and expiration of tax cuts for most Americans?

Republicans probably won't agree to raise the upper-end tax rate until Democrats and Obama agree to some meaningful spending reductions. Let's hope both sides get there sooner rather than later.

I don't believe phasing in higher age requirements for entitlement elegibility and getting greater control over COLAs is unreasonable. I also don't believe raising tax rates for the most wealthy will be overly egregious. The debt ceiling fiasco is not worth revisiting, so deal with that too.

Can we stop playing political games at some point?
 
2012-12-06 11:15:15 AM

Vlad_the_Inaner: What I want to know is how these people circumvent statutory PAYGO


PAYGO only applies to direct spending, and there's a bucket full of exemptions (section 11) that can be claimed. Notably, annual appropriations are not subject to PAYGO at all.
 
2012-12-06 11:16:56 AM
One thing that I honestly don't understand and perhaps it just my naivety :

why doesn't Obama have a network television address where he quite simply lays out the facts - no pulled punches - and then invites the Republicans to a publicly televised meeting or something of the sort. Kind of like when he did that non scripted meeting with those douchebags when he was first elected.

I'm talking about primetime network television outing of the Republicans.

Why? Why the fark can't he do that? B/c it would seem to "angry" or something?
 
2012-12-06 11:19:56 AM

Trivia Jockey: Dog Welder: The debt ceiling increase has largely been a pro forma vote in the House since it was instituted. The consequences for not raising the ceiling are catastrophic to the economy, and the idea that one party is planning on taking our entire country hostage because of their poutrage suggests to me that they should not be in office.

You are correct. Although I don't think they think they're taking the country hostage...I just don't think they understand what the debt ceiling is and what not raising it actually means.


That might have been the case back in 2011, but I'm hoping they've since educated themselves (or been educated) regarding this.
 
2012-12-06 11:20:40 AM

Cletus C.: Is it too much to expect that this is just part of a negotiatiions dance that eventually will lead to meaningful legislation that heads off automatic budget cuts and expiration of tax cuts for most Americans?

Republicans probably won't agree to raise the upper-end tax rate until Democrats and Obama agree to some meaningful spending reductions. Let's hope both sides get there sooner rather than later.

I don't believe phasing in higher age requirements for entitlement elegibility and getting greater control over COLAs is unreasonable. I also don't believe raising tax rates for the most wealthy will be overly egregious. The debt ceiling fiasco is not worth revisiting, so deal with that too.

Can we stop playing political games at some point?


Didn't they already largely do that by voting for and signing into law the Budget Control Act?
 
2012-12-06 11:21:42 AM

Cletus C.: Is it too much to expect that this is just part of a negotiatiions dance that eventually will lead to meaningful legislation that heads off automatic budget cuts and expiration of tax cuts for most Americans?

Republicans probably won't agree to raise the upper-end tax rate until Democrats and Obama agree to some meaningful spending reductions. Let's hope both sides get there sooner rather than later.

I don't believe phasing in higher age requirements for entitlement elegibility and getting greater control over COLAs is unreasonable. I also don't believe raising tax rates for the most wealthy will be overly egregious. The debt ceiling fiasco is not worth revisiting, so deal with that too.

Can we stop playing political games at some point?


Hahahahahaha, stop making sense. We the people voted on this, we're kicking that mother-farking can further down the road, so shut up. Here's a biscuit, go play outside.
 
2012-12-06 11:22:19 AM

sprawl15: Vlad_the_Inaner: What I want to know is how these people circumvent statutory PAYGO

PAYGO only applies to direct spending, and there's a bucket full of exemptions (section 11) that can be claimed. Notably, annual appropriations are not subject to PAYGO at all.


Also, the GOP pretty much punted PAYGO through a window back during the Bush II administration.
 
2012-12-06 11:23:15 AM

DirkValentine: Obama have a network television address where he quite simply lays out the facts - no pulled punches - and then invites the Republicans to a publicly televised meeting or something of the sort.


I've kind of wondered myself if this wouldn't be a good idea. Just have him explain exactly what the issues are, and then how the GOP is creating a dangerous, unstable economic situation with their obstruction. We've got to do something to try and get people to vote out these moronic, ignorant jackasses.
 
2012-12-06 11:23:57 AM

DamnYankees: Will he order Geithner to print the $1T coin?


I'll pay $50 for one!
 
2012-12-06 11:24:11 AM

Dog Welder: sprawl15: Vlad_the_Inaner: What I want to know is how these people circumvent statutory PAYGO

PAYGO only applies to direct spending, and there's a bucket full of exemptions (section 11) that can be claimed. Notably, annual appropriations are not subject to PAYGO at all.

Also, the GOP pretty much punted PAYGO through a window back during the Bush II administration.


It was reinstated in early 2010, signed by Obama.
 
2012-12-06 11:25:40 AM

Trivia Jockey: DirkValentine: Obama have a network television address where he quite simply lays out the facts - no pulled punches - and then invites the Republicans to a publicly televised meeting or something of the sort.

I've kind of wondered myself if this wouldn't be a good idea. Just have him explain exactly what the issues are, and then how the GOP is creating a dangerous, unstable economic situation with their obstruction. We've got to do something to try and get people to vote out these moronic, ignorant jackasses.


Exactly. Almost like a farking educational briefing - What the fark Is Really Going On 101.
 
2012-12-06 11:30:59 AM

DirkValentine: Trivia Jockey: DirkValentine: Obama have a network television address where he quite simply lays out the facts - no pulled punches - and then invites the Republicans to a publicly televised meeting or something of the sort.

I've kind of wondered myself if this wouldn't be a good idea. Just have him explain exactly what the issues are, and then how the GOP is creating a dangerous, unstable economic situation with their obstruction. We've got to do something to try and get people to vote out these moronic, ignorant jackasses.

Exactly. Almost like a farking educational briefing - What the fark Is Really Going On 101.


Obama has been out on the pseudo campaign trail presenting his case quite vigorously. The networks have provided snippets and analysis of what he's saying. If you want more people to hear what he's saying unfiltered, write the networks and tell them to air his speeches in prime time.

Hell, Modern Family was a repeat last night anyway so I'm sure they'll go along.
 
2012-12-06 11:31:14 AM

Serious Black: Cletus C.: Is it too much to expect that this is just part of a negotiatiions dance that eventually will lead to meaningful legislation that heads off automatic budget cuts and expiration of tax cuts for most Americans?

Republicans probably won't agree to raise the upper-end tax rate until Democrats and Obama agree to some meaningful spending reductions. Let's hope both sides get there sooner rather than later.

I don't believe phasing in higher age requirements for entitlement elegibility and getting greater control over COLAs is unreasonable. I also don't believe raising tax rates for the most wealthy will be overly egregious. The debt ceiling fiasco is not worth revisiting, so deal with that too.

Can we stop playing political games at some point?

Didn't they already largely do that by voting for and signing into law the Budget Control Act?


That? They were just kidding around when they passed that. It was just a joke. Everybody knows that. They're really serious this time, though.
 
2012-12-06 11:32:20 AM

TDWCom29: If they think they can blame Obama for it they'll do it no problem. During the campaign Ryan blamed Obama for the credit downgrade when the agency that did the downgrading said it was because of Congress.


Ryan wasn't 100% wrong but neither are you. The S&P planned to downgrade the US based on their internal calculations for US debt and revenue. After they made their recommendation to key clients, but before they widely publicized it, the White House pointed out a $1 trillion math error that S&P made in their discretionary spending projections. S&P knew they couldn't back down on their recommendation because by then their clients had already bet millions of dollars on that news, so they just re-tuned the justifications. They cherry picked talking points from both the right and the left, saying that both uncertainty in the market place and Congress's intractability supported the downgrade. That gave each side enough red meat to ensure that the resulting political blame game would prove S&P right on both counts.
 
2012-12-06 11:33:46 AM

Cletus C.: Is it too much to expect that this is just part of a negotiatiions dance that eventually will lead to meaningful legislation that heads off automatic budget cuts and expiration of tax cuts for most Americans?

Republicans probably won't agree to raise the upper-end tax rate until Democrats and Obama agree to some meaningful spending reductions. Let's hope both sides get there sooner rather than later.

I don't believe phasing in higher age requirements for entitlement elegibility and getting greater control over COLAs is unreasonable. I also don't believe raising tax rates for the most wealthy will be overly egregious. The debt ceiling fiasco is not worth revisiting, so deal with that too.

Can we stop playing political games at some point?


On a different note, increasing the eligibility ages for Social Security and Medicare are terrible ideas.

First off, there's this issue with life expectancy based on income:

theincidentaleconomist.com

That actually is a simplified view. Here's a view based on geography:

theincidentaleconomist.com

Raising the retirement age is a wildly regressive policy change that will barely give the rich a flesh wound, but it will cut off the arms and legs of the poor.

The COLA change is similarly awful for the poor and barely an issue for the rich. The bottom income quintile of retirees uses Social Security to supply an astonishing 88% of their income, and the top income quintile uses Social Security to supply a meager 18.6% of their income. It's ridiculously regressive as well.

But hey, if you want to support policies that will crush the poor into oblivion just after an election where a candidate who believes the poor deserve compassion and help was re-elected president, be my guest.
 
2012-12-06 11:35:39 AM

DamnYankees: I'm encouraged by Obama saying he just won't do it this time, but I'm interested in what that means, practically. Will he order Geithner to print the $1T coin?


$1 Trillion coin = All Time High Score Maximum Trolling
 
2012-12-06 11:36:27 AM

Dog Welder: sprawl15: Vlad_the_Inaner: What I want to know is how these people circumvent statutory PAYGO

PAYGO only applies to direct spending, and there's a bucket full of exemptions (section 11) that can be claimed. Notably, annual appropriations are not subject to PAYGO at all.

Also, the GOP pretty much punted PAYGO through a window back during the Bush II administration.


It came back during Obama's first Congress, and I don't think the 2010 teahadists have managed to kill it again. In fact it may have come back during Bush's final two years after the GOP lost majority. I'd have to check
 
2012-12-06 11:37:59 AM

Vlad_the_Inaner: In fact it may have come back during Bush's final two years after the GOP lost majority. I'd have to check


There was a House rule the last two years, but it wasn't binding legislation and was pretty easy to hand wave away.
 
2012-12-06 11:38:59 AM
Is subby implying that holding the debt ceiling hostage is the fault of Democrats?
 
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