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(Reuters)   Is it racist that Santa Claus has a black servant? Is it racist to portray him in black face? Is it, okay, yes, just, yes it's racist, okay? It's racist   (reuters.com) divider line 223
    More: Obvious, crowd watching, St. Nicholas, freedom of expression, toy stores, racists, Suriname  
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7187 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Dec 2012 at 8:55 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



223 Comments   (+0 »)
   
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2012-12-06 05:41:03 AM
 
2012-12-06 08:57:23 AM
Santa's helpers are elves, ergo Black Pete is a drow.
 
2012-12-06 08:57:25 AM
"But it's tradition!"

I'm sensing a huge business opportunity in exporting "Heritage, not Hate" swag over there.
 
2012-12-06 08:58:51 AM
Ted Danson would never do this.
 
2012-12-06 08:59:25 AM
Yes. Black Peter is an incredibly racist tradition. Sorry Dutch people, but you're perpetuating a racist tradition. Get rid of it.
 
2012-12-06 09:00:38 AM
Why do we insist on holding ancient practices to modern day standards?
 
2012-12-06 09:01:42 AM
Why is the costume racist again? Its "typical 17th century Moorish dress" which is presumably one of the ways a schwartzer would be found when this tradition originated. Its not like they're dressing him up like a slave or a jockey or a rap battler or some other hateful, offensive caricature, its just normal clothes from a long time ago. And why doesn't that make Santa Claus racist? See a hell of a lot of white dudes running around in red velvet robes, do we? hmmmmm?
 
2012-12-06 09:02:04 AM

Friskya: Why do we insist on holding ancient practices to modern day standards?


1. It's not ancient, it's less than 200 years old
2. Because we are not ancient, and we, the modern people are the ones making the decisions to continue to do these things.
 
2012-12-06 09:04:43 AM
But, but, they're Europeans! And we know they're never racist! So it's cool!
 
2012-12-06 09:04:45 AM

Friskya: Why do we insist on holding ancient practices to modern day standards?


Because there was no Black Jesus, that's why!
 
2012-12-06 09:05:12 AM
Hell, I'd go one step farther. Imagine a guy on the streets today wearing a red velvet coat with fur trim, and a jaunty hat.

Did I just describe Santa? Or a pimp?
 
2012-12-06 09:05:42 AM
They can't find any actual black people to play dress up with?
 
2012-12-06 09:06:22 AM
Saint Nicholas was just ahead of his time. At a time when Africans were discriminated against in Europe, he hired a Moorish man as his executive assistant. He should be lauded as a pioneer in fighting racism.
 
2012-12-06 09:07:19 AM

Friskya: Why do we insist on holding ancient practices to modern day standards?


Why do we insist on holding ancient practices IN modern day? Im not saying we should just forget it happened, but maybe as a society we should agree that many of the traditions we hold we are holding simply because theyre tradition and they should be done away with or updated for the times.
 
2012-12-06 09:07:25 AM
What about just hiring black actors to play the part? I bet you could do it like Macy's Santa only one of them, at the end of the parade. So when the sinterklaas ferry arrives, the last man off is Piet (played by an actual black man) who pulls out his iPhone and with a wink and a nod runs off to the nearest toy store. So Piet, still santa's Assitant, can be "busy" and therefore unseen for the rest of the holiday season
 
2012-12-06 09:07:31 AM

Hector Remarkable: Ted Danson would never do this.


hmm? what? oh dammit to hell!

www.paunchstevenson.com

/oblig
 
2012-12-06 09:07:39 AM

Gonz: Hell, I'd go one step farther. Imagine a guy on the streets today wearing a red velvet coat with fur trim, and a jaunty hat.

Did I just describe Santa? Or a pimp?


Does he have a beard? Pimps are generally well groomed.
 
2012-12-06 09:08:53 AM
"Six to Eight Black Men"

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

--
BMO
 
2012-12-06 09:10:56 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Gonz: Hell, I'd go one step farther. Imagine a guy on the streets today wearing a red velvet coat with fur trim, and a jaunty hat.

Did I just describe Santa? Or a pimp?

Does he have a beard? Pimps are generally well groomed.


www.nypost.com
 
2012-12-06 09:10:57 AM
This seems like a repeat from about a year ago.
 
2012-12-06 09:11:20 AM
On December 24th, in many homes across America, moms and dads will read 'Twas the Night Before Christmas to their kids at bedtime.

Whilst i will once again regale my progeny with David Sedaris's Six To Eight Black Men .
 
2012-12-06 09:11:27 AM
And let's not forget about elf discrimination. That bastard Santa pays substandard wages in a sweat-shop environment - do you know how many elves kill themselves every year because of an eternal contract Santa signed with Apple? They can't marry, even though the North Pole Constitution is perfectly amendable and well over 60 percent of all Santa's elves are known to be gay. (As well as a number of the reindeer, who, by the way are harvested when they're old and sold for roadside burgers in Kentucky. It's true.)
Santa's a bastard and he always has been, from slavery to corruption to outright murder. If you want to win the war on Christmas, it's this farker we need to kill. Die, Santa, die.
 
2012-12-06 09:12:17 AM
And why is Santa always dressed as a Republican?
 
2012-12-06 09:12:17 AM

Friskya: Why do we insist on holding ancient practices to modern day standards?


This argument could also apply to human trafficking.
 
2012-12-06 09:12:29 AM

I am Jack's user id: On December 24th, in many homes across America, moms and dads will read 'Twas the Night Before Christmas to their kids at bedtime.

Whilst i will once again regale my progeny with David Sedaris's Six To Eight Black Men .


you racist... ;-)
 
2012-12-06 09:12:42 AM
To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?
 
2012-12-06 09:13:15 AM
It's still OK to portray Krampus, though.

/Relieved to have awakened in bed this morning and not in Krampus' sack.
//Must not have been that naughty this year.
 
2012-12-06 09:14:27 AM

Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?


This is Fark.. home of the smallest intellects being ITGs.. so yes.. yes it does count.

/Luv ya Farkers :)
 
2012-12-06 09:14:29 AM
(shakes tiny fist at bubo_sibiricus)
 
mhd
2012-12-06 09:15:23 AM

Prank Call of Cthulhu: It's still OK to portray Krampus, though.


Who could possibly object?

i.imgur.com
 
2012-12-06 09:16:55 AM

Gonz: Hell, I'd go one step farther. Imagine a guy on the streets today wearing a red velvet coat with fur trim, and a jaunty hat.

Did I just describe Santa? Or a pimp?


A white woman.
 
2012-12-06 09:17:41 AM

McManus_brothers: But, but, they're Europeans! And we know they're never racist! So it's cool!


The funny thing is, I've heard from many Europeans that they are offended by this. Not in the usual way you would think so. That is, Black Pete being a racist caricature. But that the ones who are complaining about Black Pete the most are Americans. And how dare Americans be fascist bullies and think what they find offensive should be standard to what everyone finds offensive. That in their non-American culture, they doesn't have a history of blackface or at least blackface that is found offensive by the public, so therefore they should be able to do it and NO ONE should complain.
 
2012-12-06 09:18:51 AM
FTFA: Entitled "St Nicholas and his servant," it showed a short, dark-faced man dressed in a Moorish costume a few steps behind an imposing white man with a white beard and bishop's outfit.

"There's a theory that says that important people had a black servant, it was a status symbol. Sinterklaas was an important man, so he needed one too,"



I see there are a lot of folks who didn't read the article. I think this is why people are offended. it has nothing to do with the Pete's clothing, it had to do with why he exists as a character.
 
2012-12-06 09:20:59 AM

mekki: McManus_brothers: But, but, they're Europeans! And we know they're never racist! So it's cool!

The funny thing is, I've heard from many Europeans that they are offended by this. Not in the usual way you would think so. That is, Black Pete being a racist caricature. But that the ones who are complaining about Black Pete the most are Americans. And how dare Americans be fascist bullies and think what they find offensive should be standard to what everyone finds offensive. That in their non-American culture, they doesn't have a history of blackface or at least blackface that is found offensive by the public, so therefore they should be able to do it and NO ONE should complain.


That sounds like something you just made up.


/ijs
 
2012-12-06 09:22:38 AM

Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?


Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.
 
2012-12-06 09:23:08 AM
Yes. Yes, this is racist.

I don't care how much happy memories you attach to it - just because a tradition is old and makes kids happy does NOT mean it isn't racist as all get-out. I do _not_ understand this place, or how they've sold the rest of the world the image that they are tolerant and welcoming. The fact that tolerance is not the same as acceptance is a lesson that I've learned quite well here (it is stunning to realize how differently my white friends here view the Dutch vs my asian and black friends - regardless of their nationality). I bet it has to be fun to be a fly on the wall at some of the embassies here around this time of year, when the fresh expats figure out that this is real, happening, and everywhere.

The images are EVERYWHERE. 80% of shop windows either have photos or dolls - even wrapped around oranges (which I discovered after I brought home a box of Mandarins), and parachuting into the snack area at the movie theater. I particularly love the burlap sacks they sell here, with the picture of a black person with big, fat, red lips (http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3034/3043735415_a594373cfd_z.jpg).

Want a mindfark? How about a black child in blackface (http://kaganof.com/kagablog/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/0101.jpg)?

Better: a black friend of mine in Amsterdam sent her daughter to school in whiteface on this day when she was a kid, so she could be Sinterklaas instead of the clumsy, bumbling, stupid helper who hands out candy. 

Regarding the "but... it is TRADITION" bullsh*t" - so was slavery, so were women as chattel, so was Prima Nocta/ droit du seigneur, and a whole lot of other things that modern society finally saw as inappropriate relics from a bygone era.
 
2012-12-06 09:24:12 AM
Everything is racist, which means nothing is.

Seriously: at no time in history has any group gotten along with others. We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.

Let's just grow up, accept that, and move on.
 
2012-12-06 09:26:37 AM

mekki: McManus_brothers: But, but, they're Europeans! And we know they're never racist! So it's cool!

The funny thing is, I've heard from many Europeans that they are offended by this. Not in the usual way you would think so. That is, Black Pete being a racist caricature. But that the ones who are complaining about Black Pete the most are Americans. And how dare Americans be fascist bullies and think what they find offensive should be standard to what everyone finds offensive. That in their non-American culture, they doesn't have a history of blackface or at least blackface that is found offensive by the public, so therefore they should be able to do it and NO ONE should complain.


Very much this.

If you get offended by Zwarte Piet, it is because of your own country's racist history and your thin skin. People literally get violent over it! It has nothing to do with the fact that nationally celebrating a holiday by dressing up and acting as a racial stereotype is offensive.

And anyone who thinks the Dutch don't have a history of racism even longer and more brutal than America is ignorant or fooling themselves.
 
2012-12-06 09:26:42 AM

sodomizer: We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.


You've convinced me. RAAAAACCEEE WAAAAAARRRR!
 
2012-12-06 09:27:04 AM

sodomizer: Everything is racist, which means nothing is.

Seriously: at no time in history has any group gotten along with others. We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.

Let's just grow up, accept that, and move on.


I'd give you a slow clap, but your pointless rant about those dirty librulz was so off topic that you just get snark instead.
 
2012-12-06 09:27:26 AM

eldezod: sodomizer: We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.

You've convinced me. RAAAAACCEEE WAAAAAARRRR!


FREEEEEE BIIIIIIIIRD!
 
2012-12-06 09:27:35 AM

mekki: Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?

Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.


No malice behind portraying black women as fat, uneducated, house-dress wearing, simpletons? Thats news.
 
2012-12-06 09:28:55 AM

sodomizer: Everything is racist, which means nothing is.

Seriously: at no time in history has any group gotten along with others. We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.

Let's just grow up, accept that, and move on.


Again, just because you're a racist and can't get along with others doesn't mean that's true for everyone.
 
2012-12-06 09:29:05 AM

HailRobonia: Santa's helpers are elves, ergo Black Pete is a drow.


Which I would buy having played D&D, but...

"Celebrations were depicted on paintings of 17th century Dutch artists Jan Steen and Richard Brakenburg, but Zwarte Piet only made his first appearance in a mid-19th century illustrated book by Dutch teacher Jan Schenkman."

Zwarte Piet is a bit of residual colonialism, and should probably at least be de-emphasized on that basis.
 
2012-12-06 09:29:10 AM
The tradition of St Nicholas exists in other European countries, including Austria and Germany. But he is only accompanied by black helpers in the Netherlands and Belgium.


Switzerland too, according to a buddy of mine.
 
2012-12-06 09:30:04 AM

natazha: And why is Santa always dressed as a Republican?


Santa Claus has a red suit
He's a Communist
And and a beard and long hair
Must be a Pacificst
What's in the pipe that he's smoking?
- Arlo Guthrie
 
2012-12-06 09:35:33 AM

Witchydiva: eldezod: sodomizer: We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.

You've convinced me. RAAAAACCEEE WAAAAAARRRR!

FREEEEEE BIIIIIIIIRD!


AAASSS YOOUUUU WIIIIIIISSHHHH
 
2012-12-06 09:40:04 AM

bubo_sibiricus: "Six to Eight Black Men"

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

--
BMO



Thanks. As a Brit I'd never heard him before. Will be seeking out more Sedaris
 
2012-12-06 09:41:03 AM
Yes, this is a racist tradition that should be retired.
And besides that, blacks are too lazy to take on that job and they'll probably have to shift to Latinos anyway

\troll, troll, troll your thread....
 
2012-12-06 09:41:20 AM
www.antoinetteberns.nl

www.krabbendam-kadoverpakking.nl

static.wix.com

offtrackplanet.com 

thumbs.dreamstime.com
 
2012-12-06 09:42:28 AM

ThePastafarian: Witchydiva: eldezod: sodomizer: We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.

You've convinced me. RAAAAACCEEE WAAAAAARRRR!

FREEEEEE BIIIIIIIIRD!

AAASSS YOOUUUU WIIIIIIISSHHHH


Social engineering experiments, such as mandatory school busing and massive housing projects, were total failures in America and had lots of unintended negative results. Indeed, the successes have proven to be the exception, not the rule.

Be as sarcastic as you want to be, but true unity within a society is an evolutionary process that takes many generations, and if rushed too much, can actually result in more prejudice and division, not less.
 
2012-12-06 09:42:43 AM

natazha: And why is Santa always dressed as a Republican?


In Liverpool (red) some Everton (blue) fans refuse to dress in red for the annual Santa run:

i1.wp.com
 
2012-12-06 09:43:16 AM
img15.imageshack.us 

Got all my HOs with me tonight, gonna come down your chimney baby.
 
2012-12-06 09:43:49 AM
"Aunt Jemima makes good syrup, 'bout the best that anyone can, whether regular or buttered its the best brand in the land"

Yep, don't see it.......
 
2012-12-06 09:43:56 AM
Yesterday was fun in Amsterdam and I can't think of anyone who actually lives here that gives a shiat about this "racism".

Tourists are more pissed off they can't buy weed.
 
2012-12-06 09:47:32 AM
Being dutch this tradition gives me two comedic opportunities: First of I get to snicker at the looks of utter disbelieve when I tell americans about the tradition. "Yes the white people put on blackface and play a subservient role to an old white dude. Why? You don't like that?". Secondly I never hesitate to tell my countrymen that they are all racist for not wanting to change the tradition. You won't believe the hostile looks you will get from everyone in the room, except from those who really have an open mind (instead of just thinking that they do). As if you just tried to murder the precious Sinterklaas tradition together with the tradition of believing that the dutch are tolerant. Which, just for the record, they/we are. We are tolerant, just not on Sinterklaas day :D
 
2012-12-06 09:48:00 AM

hdhale: Social engineering experiments, such as mandatory school busing and massive housing projects, were total failures in America


What about school desegregation?
 
2012-12-06 09:48:47 AM

T.M.S.: I can't think of anyone who actually lives here that gives a shiat about this "racism".


Well, except for, you know, all the Surinamese, or the other non-white people who complain. You know, those whose ancestors were subjected to brutal and horrific Dutch colonialism.
 
2012-12-06 09:49:44 AM
You guys are viewing this through the lense of American culture and history. Stop and think about why you think black face is offensive and racist to begin with ...because is America it was used ot caricature people who were being enslaved and subjugated.

So from that point of view it's racist

But...and this might surprise my America friends ...the rest of the world has different history than you. During the 13th century much of Europe was ruled by Moors, they were not slaves, they were the ruling class. This would change how a caricature is viewed. As a society they have different norms and taboos that Americans have...even about the same topics
 
2012-12-06 09:51:44 AM

T.M.S.: Yesterday was fun in Amsterdam and I can't think of anyone who actually lives here that gives a shiat about this "racism".

Tourists are more pissed off they can't buy weed.


Right. Shall I introduce you to my Surinaamse friends? I can even introduce you to a few white Dutch who think this is inappropriate.

But go on living in your bubble.
 
2012-12-06 09:53:18 AM
Depends entirely on historical context.
 
2012-12-06 09:54:01 AM

eldezod: You've convinced me. RAAAAACCEEE WAAAAAARRRR!


Oh Lord, no! Hopefully we can avoid that.

Frazzled...
 
2012-12-06 09:55:19 AM
The elimination of this type of depiction of fictional characters will be a great step forward for human rights.
 
2012-12-06 09:55:56 AM

easypray: You guys are viewing this through the lense of American culture and history. Stop and think about why you think black face is offensive and racist to begin with ...because is America it was used ot caricature people who were being enslaved and subjugated.

So from that point of view it's racist

But...and this might surprise my America friends ...the rest of the world has different history than you. During the 13th century much of Europe was ruled by Moors, they were not slaves, they were the ruling class. This would change how a caricature is viewed. As a society they have different norms and taboos that Americans have...even about the same topics


Yeah, no. Go read up on the history of Dutch colonialism, the retconned Surinamese roots for Zwart Piet, and the history of objection to the character from an increasingly multi-racial Dutch society.
 
2012-12-06 09:56:40 AM

easypray: You guys are viewing this through the lense of American culture and history. Stop and think about why you think black face is offensive and racist to begin with ...because is America it was used ot caricature people who were being enslaved and subjugated.

So from that point of view it's racist

But...and this might surprise my America friends ...the rest of the world has different history than you. During the 13th century much of Europe was ruled by Moors, they were not slaves, they were the ruling class. This would change how a caricature is viewed. As a society they have different norms and taboos that Americans have...even about the same topics


Nonsense. Everywhere in the world is America, and people who don't have free speech and the jesus and a longstanding tradition of white guilt and PC paranoia ain't right.
 
2012-12-06 09:58:11 AM

easypray: You guys are viewing this through the lense of American culture and history. Stop and think about why you think black face is offensive and racist to begin with ...because is America it was used ot caricature people who were being enslaved and subjugated.

So from that point of view it's racist

But...and this might surprise my America friends ...the rest of the world has different history than you. During the 13th century much of Europe was ruled by Moors, they were not slaves, they were the ruling class. This would change how a caricature is viewed. As a society they have different norms and taboos that Americans have...even about the same topics



Lol. Where the fark do you think the slaveowners in America came from? The Moon? Also, you didn't read the article. Pete was created because the Dutch used to believe that having a black servant was a status symbol. Personally, its not a big deal. People will always find justifications for these old racist traditions so its not worth the energy to get all worked up about it. But, lets not try to whitewash (pun intended) the history of the character for the sake of making the people who support his existence feel better about themselves. It is what it is.
 
2012-12-06 10:01:03 AM
Does Zwarte Piet hand out watermelon and fried chicken to the children?
 
2012-12-06 10:03:22 AM

Witchydiva: T.M.S.: Yesterday was fun in Amsterdam and I can't think of anyone who actually lives here that gives a shiat about this "racism".

Tourists are more pissed off they can't buy weed.

Right. Shall I introduce you to my Surinaamse friends? I can even introduce you to a few white Dutch who think this is inappropriate.


Sure. I'm happy to hear all about it. Seriously, I would love to hear what they have to say.
 
2012-12-06 10:03:49 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND:
Lol. Where the fark do you think the slaveowners in America came from? The Moon? Also, you didn't read the article. Pete was created because the Dutch used to believe that having a black servant was a status symbol. Personally, its not a big deal. People will always find justifications for these old racist traditions so its not worth the energy to get all worked up about it. But, lets not try to whitewash (pun intended) the history of the character for the sake of making the people who support his existence feel better about themselves. It is what it is.


Save your breath, man. I lived in the South for over a decade, and NEVER experienced the overt racism I have while living here this year. Nothing quite like bumping into someone having a bad day at the train station, who calls you a dirty c*nt and foreign whore and yells at you to go back home to your country - and to take the Moroccans and Turks with you. Charming, really. Nearly as charming as their habit of swearing with diseases here (because let me tell you how much fun it is to nearly get hit by a driver when I had the right of way on my bike, and be told to get cancer - just days after finding out that my father does, in fact, have cancer).

But I'm sure I'm just looking at that through myopic American eyes (y'know, because being the daughter of two immigrants from two different continents and having travelled all over the world since I was an infant means that I only see things as an American)
 
2012-12-06 10:05:20 AM
moonwolves.files.wordpress.com
"What's going on in this....oh hell naw."
 
2012-12-06 10:05:48 AM

bubo_sibiricus: "Six to Eight Black Men"

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

--
BMO


Came here for this. Leaving satisfied.
 
2012-12-06 10:05:57 AM

Rincewind53: Yes. Black Peter is an incredibly racist tradition. Sorry Dutch people, but you're perpetuating a racist tradition. Get rid of it.


Interestingly, Black Peter is actually supposed to be originally a Spaniard as the Dutch were at war with Spain at the time. Early drawings had him a bit tanned but over time his tan has become darker and darker.
 
2012-12-06 10:06:07 AM

T.M.S.: Witchydiva: T.M.S.: Yesterday was fun in Amsterdam and I can't think of anyone who actually lives here that gives a shiat about this "racism".

Tourists are more pissed off they can't buy weed.

Right. Shall I introduce you to my Surinaamse friends? I can even introduce you to a few white Dutch who think this is inappropriate.

Sure. I'm happy to hear all about it. Seriously, I would love to hear what they have to say.


EIP.

If you are on Facebook, I'd direct you to Zwarte Piet is Racisme for some connections.
 
2012-12-06 10:08:06 AM

Rincewind53:
Yeah, no. Go read up on the history of Dutch colonialism, the retconned Surinamese roots for Zwart Piet, and the history of objection to the character from an increasingly multi-racial Dutch society.


No, YOU go read up on the history of thanksgiving and put a stop to that celebration of what is basically the beginning of an atrocity, before you go pointing fingers at the culture and customs of other countries.
 
2012-12-06 10:11:28 AM

easypray: You guys are viewing this through the lense of American culture and history. Stop and think about why you think black face is offensive and racist to begin with ...because is America it was used ot caricature people who were being enslaved and subjugated.

So from that point of view it's racist

But...and this might surprise my America friends ...the rest of the world has different history than you. During the 13th century much of Europe was ruled by Moors, they were not slaves, they were the ruling class. This would change how a caricature is viewed. As a society they have different norms and taboos that Americans have...even about the same topics


You might want to read up on that "different history" of the Dutch and Belgians, especially the part about them being the most brutal and exploitative European colonial powers. They made the English and French look like saints.
 
2012-12-06 10:12:57 AM

Public Savant: Rincewind53:
Yeah, no. Go read up on the history of Dutch colonialism, the retconned Surinamese roots for Zwart Piet, and the history of objection to the character from an increasingly multi-racial Dutch society.

No, YOU go read up on the history of thanksgiving and put a stop to that celebration of what is basically the beginning of an atrocity, before you go pointing fingers at the culture and customs of other countries.


Well, that's certainly off topic and irrelevant.

P.S. I actually do think the traditional depiction of Indians at Thanksgiving is hopelessly naive and anti-historical, as is the entire story of the Pilgrims as taught to children. Also, the modern Thanksgiving was created by Abraham Lincoln, so it's not entirely correct to call it a celebration of the beginning of an atrocity. Again, however, that is entirely off-topic and irrelevant.
 
2012-12-06 10:14:41 AM

Witchydiva: DROxINxTHExWIND:
Lol. Where the fark do you think the slaveowners in America came from? The Moon? Also, you didn't read the article. Pete was created because the Dutch used to believe that having a black servant was a status symbol. Personally, its not a big deal. People will always find justifications for these old racist traditions so its not worth the energy to get all worked up about it. But, lets not try to whitewash (pun intended) the history of the character for the sake of making the people who support his existence feel better about themselves. It is what it is.

Save your breath, man. I lived in the South for over a decade, and NEVER experienced the overt racism I have while living here this year. Nothing quite like bumping into someone having a bad day at the train station, who calls you a dirty c*nt and foreign whore and yells at you to go back home to your country - and to take the Moroccans and Turks with you. Charming, really. Nearly as charming as their habit of swearing with diseases here (because let me tell you how much fun it is to nearly get hit by a driver when I had the right of way on my bike, and be told to get cancer - just days after finding out that my father does, in fact, have cancer).

But I'm sure I'm just looking at that through myopic American eyes (y'know, because being the daughter of two immigrants from two different continents and having travelled all over the world since I was an infant means that I only see things as an American)



Damn. Thats rough.
 
2012-12-06 10:14:42 AM

Witchydiva: Save your breath, man. I lived in the South for over a decade, and NEVER experienced the overt racism I have while living here this year. Nothing quite like bumping into someone having a bad day at the train station, who calls you a dirty c*nt and foreign whore and yells at you to go back home to your country - and to take the Moroccans and Turks with you. Charming, really. Nearly as charming as their habit of swearing with diseases here (because let me tell you how much fun it is to nearly get hit by a driver when I had the right of way on my bike, and be told to get cancer - just days after finding out that my father does, in fact, have cancer).


That kind of racism is not at all indicative to the majority of the dutch, but there is a large group who does think that way. The swearing with diseases is done by most though, so you might want to grow a thicker skin (calling someone an asshole doesn't make him an anal orifice either).
 
2012-12-06 10:16:38 AM

Public Savant: Rincewind53:
Yeah, no. Go read up on the history of Dutch colonialism, the retconned Surinamese roots for Zwart Piet, and the history of objection to the character from an increasingly multi-racial Dutch society.

No, YOU go read up on the history of thanksgiving and put a stop to that celebration of what is basically the beginning of an atrocity, before you go pointing fingers at the culture and customs of other countries.


You're racist, so it's ok for us to be racist too!

Do we have a retcon-immune source for the Spaniard story? I genuinely would like to know where this outrage should sit, on a scale from "Shrill Israeli Protests Hindu Temple Symbol" to "Consumers Revolt against Chingy-Chong Brand Bucktoothed Yellow Action Figure"
 
2012-12-06 10:16:47 AM

Public Savant: No, YOU go read up on the history of thanksgiving and put a stop to that celebration of what is basically the beginning of an atrocity, before you go pointing fingers at the culture and customs of other countries.


We generally don't have brown faced imps dancing about on Thanksgiving. Generally.
 
2012-12-06 10:18:26 AM

jamspoon: bubo_sibiricus: "Six to Eight Black Men"

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

--
BMO


Thanks. As a Brit I'd never heard him before. Will be seeking out more Sedaris


His books are quite funny, but if you get the chance, he sometimes does spoken word/readings - my sis sent me tix to one for Xmas a few years ago. Laughed so much my stomach muscles were sore...
 
2012-12-06 10:19:20 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: mekki: McManus_brothers: But, but, they're Europeans! And we know they're never racist! So it's cool!

The funny thing is, I've heard from many Europeans that they are offended by this. Not in the usual way you would think so. That is, Black Pete being a racist caricature. But that the ones who are complaining about Black Pete the most are Americans. And how dare Americans be fascist bullies and think what they find offensive should be standard to what everyone finds offensive. That in their non-American culture, they doesn't have a history of blackface or at least blackface that is found offensive by the public, so therefore they should be able to do it and NO ONE should complain.

That sounds like something you just made up.


/ijs


Yeah, it sounds too absurd to be real but...it's not. Nope. Not at all.
 
2012-12-06 10:19:25 AM

Witchydiva: T.M.S.: Witchydiva: T.M.S.: Yesterday was fun in Amsterdam and I can't think of anyone who actually lives here that gives a shiat about this "racism".

Tourists are more pissed off they can't buy weed.

Right. Shall I introduce you to my Surinaamse friends? I can even introduce you to a few white Dutch who think this is inappropriate.

Sure. I'm happy to hear all about it. Seriously, I would love to hear what they have to say.

EIP.

If you are on Facebook, I'd direct you to Zwarte Piet is Racisme for some connections.


Thank you but I don't speak Dutch. I do promise to keep an eye and ear out from this point on. But I still have never met anyone who has an issue with this. Perhaps I will now.
 
2012-12-06 10:20:11 AM

Harvey Manfrenjensenjen: You might want to read up on that "different history" of the Dutch and Belgians, especially the part about them being the most brutal and exploitative European colonial powers. They made the English and French look like saints.


This is true. The british came to rule, the spanish to convert, and the dutch to epxloit.
 
2012-12-06 10:23:53 AM
Zwarte Piet is not racist, he is awesome
 
2012-12-06 10:24:52 AM

easypray: You guys are viewing this through the lense of American culture and history. Stop and think about why you think black face is offensive and racist to begin with ...because is America it was used ot caricature people who were being enslaved and subjugated.

So from that point of view it's racist

But...and this might surprise my America friends ...the rest of the world has different history than you. During the 13th century much of Europe was ruled by Moors, they were not slaves, they were the ruling class. This would change how a caricature is viewed. As a society they have different norms and taboos that Americans have...even about the same topics


Thank you for proving my point to DROxINxTHExWIND
 
2012-12-06 10:31:25 AM

Brass_Robo: Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?


The way I heard the tale told to me - by the Dutch mother of an ex-girlfriend of mine - Svarte Pete (phonetic, I know it's spelled wrong) followed behind Santa Claus, but he wasn't carrying gifts. Santa would give the good boys and girls gifts on the stoop of their houses. Any child who had not been a good boy or girl that year, Svarte Pete would kidnap them and take them away to be sold into slavery and never come home again.

As an image of revenge for the crimes of the Moors when they were in charge, having them be the servants instead of the rulers? I can understand that.
As a tool to illustrate consequences of not behaving well to young kids, especially given the fairy-tale Santa Claus context? It's harsh, but old fairy tales commonly were.
Having a black man follow a white guy around and do his dirty work for him while the white guy gets to play the hero? And doing it in blackface and an afro wig? And even if you don't buy into the "evil Pete" angle and you follow the happy helper role instead - white people in blackface acting the fool/playing the minstrel? Yeah, none of that's gonna fly.

Whether that's intended or not doesn't matter. There's too much history of racism in colonial practices and the Dutch slave trade to ignore the visuals. With that and the relatively young history of this tradition, the racist elements and imagery cannot be plausibly denied. It's time to let it go.
 
2012-12-06 10:31:56 AM
There are places in the world that don't have the historical and cultural context to foster a racist interpretation of images like these. But the Netherlands and Belgium aren't among them: this character actually originated as Santa's slave.
 
2012-12-06 10:33:12 AM

PandaPorn: Witchydiva: Save your breath, man. I lived in the South for over a decade, and NEVER experienced the overt racism I have while living here this year. Nothing quite like bumping into someone having a bad day at the train station, who calls you a dirty c*nt and foreign whore and yells at you to go back home to your country - and to take the Moroccans and Turks with you. Charming, really. Nearly as charming as their habit of swearing with diseases here (because let me tell you how much fun it is to nearly get hit by a driver when I had the right of way on my bike, and be told to get cancer - just days after finding out that my father does, in fact, have cancer).

That kind of racism is not at all indicative to the majority of the dutch, but there is a large group who does think that way. The swearing with diseases is done by most though, so you might want to grow a thicker skin (calling someone an asshole doesn't make him an anal orifice either).


Eh. The disease thing I find to be immature. That one particularly stung, simply because of the timing. I just consider it another symptom of the complete lack of consideration for others that seems to be so prevalent in general Dutch culture, and move on with my life.

Regarding the large racist minority - I get that. We have racists in the US, too. I get that, as well. What has amazed me is that every time I've found myself on the receiving end of it, not one person has ever spoken up to put the bigot in their rightful place. The guy that yelled at me - I honestly thought that he was going to hit me. He kept up his rantings right up to the train employees, and then vented to them - their reaction? To smile nervously at him, and tell me to go on home and not worry about this man anymore. He even directly threatened me in front of them, and they just told him to walk away. Amazing.

Also, nothing like walking past a group of young teenage boys (12-14 years old or so), and having one put his hands to his temple, pull his eyes back, and say "HERRO!" as I passed by, in a horrible caricature of a bad Japanese accent in English. And then having all the other boys in the group laugh and do the same. No way they knew I was American, and I'm obviously not Japanese. Yeah, kids will be kids - and don't get me started on the complete lack of manners Dutch children display in public and private. Holy crap. I'd have been beaten within an inch of my life if I pulled some of the stunts these kids do on a regular basis.

I'm lucky in that overall, my experience here has been positive. I've met some amazing people, many of whom I am sure to remain in contact with after I eventually leave this country. There just seem to be a lot of jerks here, and racism is more widely accepted than I'd expected.
 
2012-12-06 10:33:53 AM
So let me get this straight. If I, a white person, were to become incredibly famous to the point that people a thousand years later are throwing parades in my honor, it would be racist for them to depict my assistant if he happened to be black? And now is it not more racist (or at least insensitive) to not acknowledge that Peter was black? Should Peter be depicted as white? Asian? Tell me how Peter should be depicted if not as black.

Now, to have a white dude in blackface? Offensive as all fark. But still not racist, because you're attempting to accurately depict a scene of a white dude and a black dude. Much better of course simply to *find* a black dude to play Peter.
 
Biv
2012-12-06 10:34:17 AM
Anyone offended by this is a retard of epic proportions.

Grow up.
 
2012-12-06 10:35:11 AM

mekki: easypray: You guys are viewing this through the lense of American culture and history. Stop and think about why you think black face is offensive and racist to begin with ...because is America it was used ot caricature people who were being enslaved and subjugated.

So from that point of view it's racist

But...and this might surprise my America friends ...the rest of the world has different history than you. During the 13th century much of Europe was ruled by Moors, they were not slaves, they were the ruling class. This would change how a caricature is viewed. As a society they have different norms and taboos that Americans have...even about the same topics

Thank you for proving my point to DROxINxTHExWIND


Unfortunately, a second dose of anecdotal evidence really didn't sway me much. Neither of you apparently read the article. Pete was not a Moor from the ruling class. He was a black servant who elevated Santa's status.
 
2012-12-06 10:35:53 AM
also:
www.explosm.net

/oblig
 
2012-12-06 10:35:57 AM

mhd: Prank Call of Cthulhu: It's still OK to portray Krampus, though.

Who could possibly object?

[i.imgur.com image 454x700]


Is that the patron saint of the Red Light District or something? Well, as long as the kid isn't black.
 
2012-12-06 10:37:13 AM
American-Hungarian living in Amsterdam here, and yep it's racist. For the Dutch who don't believe it and claim Zwarte Piet is just dirty cause he came down the chimney, why the fark does he need curly hair, red lips, and gold hoop earrings then?

Frankly, I've yet to meet a Dutch person who had a good argument about why it wasn't racist that wasn't caught up in childhood emotions.

Another bit of food for thought, if this isn't racist then no one should have a problem with them creating an assistant called "Hanukkah Harry" who has a big nose cause he banged it coming down the chimney, right? Except I don't think anyone would think that...
 
2012-12-06 10:41:06 AM
I was in Amsterdam in December of 97 wandering around aimlessly with a nice smile on my face when I happened upon this huge parade where a large amount participants and viewers alike were wearing black face and dancing about.


I wasn't sure which reality I was in at that moment.
 
2012-12-06 10:41:19 AM

Biv: Anyone offended by this is a retard of epic proportions.

Grow up.


I bet you're the guy who went to his Halloween party in blackface and then got all pissy when people told you to leave.
 
2012-12-06 10:41:58 AM

Thallone1: So let me get this straight. If I, a white person, were to become incredibly famous to the point that people a thousand years later are throwing parades in my honor, it would be racist for them to depict my assistant if he happened to be black? And now is it not more racist (or at least insensitive) to not acknowledge that Peter was black? Should Peter be depicted as white? Asian? Tell me how Peter should be depicted if not as black.

Now, to have a white dude in blackface? Offensive as all fark. But still not racist, because you're attempting to accurately depict a scene of a white dude and a black dude. Much better of course simply to *find* a black dude to play Peter.


The tradition is 150 years old. Not thousands of years old.
 
2012-12-06 10:44:13 AM
Yes it's offensive, but this is coming from one of the last countries to ever outlaw slavery, whose genocide of an entire continent of people have been sugarcoated and made a federal holiday for gluttons to gorge themselves.

Pot, kettle, etc...
 
2012-12-06 10:45:13 AM
I'd like to know where the "Racism Equator" is located in the Atlantic Ocean. How close to America did the Dutch settlers have to get before they started hating black people?
 
2012-12-06 10:47:00 AM
Also



i478.photobucket.com



/Disappointed it took this long for this...
 
2012-12-06 10:52:33 AM
"It's 2012, people," wrote GeenStijl in a post that attracted much attention. "We're better than Zwarte Piet."

Well, THAT is certainly racist!

OK, let's fire all the elves.
 
Biv
2012-12-06 10:53:16 AM

Rincewind53: Biv: Anyone offended by this is a retard of epic proportions.

Grow up.

I bet you're the guy who went to his Halloween party in blackface and then got all pissy when people told you to leave.


Nah, that's just hack.

Seriously, if someone putting on make up offends you, you might want to address your own insecurities.

The only reason something is offensive if because you CHOOSE to be offended by it. If we'd just start there we could actually focus on real issues.
 
2012-12-06 10:54:28 AM

tj614zu: They can't find any actual black people to play dress up with?


Not really short ones.
 
2012-12-06 10:55:05 AM
bite-prod.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2012-12-06 10:57:08 AM
From TFA: "Sinterklaas celebrations in western Canada organized by the Dutch community were called off last year and former Dutch colony Suriname has said Zwarte Piet is not welcome this year because of concerns over racism."

I don't know about you guys, but not inviting the black guy to the party seems pretty racist to me.



jamspoon: natazha: And why is Santa always dressed as a Republican?

In Liverpool (red) some Everton (blue) fans refuse to dress in red for the annual Santa run:

[i1.wp.com image 636x378]


As am Everton fan, I am amused. Blue Crimbo all the way!
 
2012-12-06 10:58:46 AM
i141.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-06 10:59:22 AM

Biv: The only reason something is offensive if because you CHOOSE to be offended by it.


Your half-baked bare assertion is certainly intriguing.
 
2012-12-06 10:59:31 AM

Biv: Nah, that's just hack.

Seriously, if someone putting on make up offends you, you might want to address your own insecurities.

The only reason something is offensive if because you CHOOSE to be offended by it. If we'd just start there we could actually focus on real issues.


Oh, I get it! Like when the KKK burns crosses in a black man's lawn! It's not their fault I'm offended, it's my fault! Oh wow, now that I've addressed my inner insecurities, I can't imagine why I've ever been offended in my life! Thanks, internet stranger! Now when I see that white guy call a homeless guy a n*gger I know that truly, deep down inside, I'm okay with it!
 
2012-12-06 11:01:03 AM

Rincewind53: Biv: Nah, that's just hack.

Seriously, if someone putting on make up offends you, you might want to address your own insecurities.

The only reason something is offensive if because you CHOOSE to be offended by it. If we'd just start there we could actually focus on real issues.

Oh, I get it! Like when the KKK burns crosses in a black man's lawn! It's not their fault I'm offended, it's my fault! Oh wow, now that I've addressed my inner insecurities, I can't imagine why I've ever been offended in my life! Thanks, internet stranger! Now when I see that white guy call a homeless guy a n*gger I know that truly, deep down inside, I'm okay with it!


That's not the same and you know it.
 
2012-12-06 11:02:48 AM
Idk, go ask Daniel Tosh.
 
2012-12-06 11:04:43 AM

super_grass: That's not the same and you know it.


But he told me that the only reason anything is offense is if I choose to be offended by it!
 
2012-12-06 11:13:43 AM

sodomizer: Everything is racist, which means nothing is.

Seriously: at no time in history has any group gotten along with others. We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.

Let's just grow up, accept that, and move on.


Herpa Derpa Doo!
 
2012-12-06 11:13:53 AM

Witchydiva: Eh. The disease thing I find to be immature. That one particularly stung, simply because of the timing. I just consider it another symptom of the complete lack of consideration for others that seems to be so prevalent in general Dutch culture, and move on with my life.

Regarding the large racist minority - I get that. We have racists in the US, too. I get that, as well. What has amazed me is that every time I've found myself on the receiving end of it, not one person has ever spoken up to put the bigot in their rightful place. The guy that yelled at me - I honestly thought that he was going to hit me. He kept up his rantings right up to the train employees, and then vented to them - their reaction? To smile nervously at him, and tell me to go on home and not worry about this man anymore. He even directly threatened me in front of them, and they just told him to walk away. Amazing.

Also, nothing like walking past a group of young teenage boys (12-14 years old or so), and having one put his hands to his temple, pul ...


I don't know what part of the country you live in, but I have lived all my life all over the country and have never encountered something even resembling what you describe. The disease thing I couldn't care less about as every culture has its own swear words, and I personally don't see swear words as immature. As for the children being badly raised is a matter of perception in my opinion. We tend to draw that criticism from the belgians as well, but that's usually because they are used to raise kids in a different, stricter way, not because of any fundamental differences in the end result.

And I also think it's ironic that you stereotype an entire culture (the dutch) while speaking out against discrimination. You have to admit it's a bit hypocritical.
 
2012-12-06 11:18:07 AM

hdhale: ThePastafarian: Witchydiva: eldezod: sodomizer: We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.

You've convinced me. RAAAAACCEEE WAAAAAARRRR!

FREEEEEE BIIIIIIIIRD!

AAASSS YOOUUUU WIIIIIIISSHHHH

Social engineering experiments, such as mandatory school busing and massive housing projects, were total failures in America and had lots of unintended negative results. Indeed, the successes have proven to be the exception, not the rule.

Be as sarcastic as you want to be, but true unity within a society is an evolutionary process that takes many generations, and if rushed too much, can actually result in more prejudice and division, not less.


Wow, ur smrt.

That's not what douchebag was saying, but ok.
 
2012-12-06 11:23:35 AM

MythDragon: [moonwolves.files.wordpress.com image 640x356]
"What's going on in this....oh hell naw."


...came for the "Bad Santa" reference...
leaving satisfied. :-)
 
2012-12-06 11:24:04 AM

tj614zu: They can't find any actual black people to play dress up with?


It's the netherlands, of course not.
 
Biv
2012-12-06 11:24:52 AM

Rincewind53: Biv: Nah, that's just hack.

Seriously, if someone putting on make up offends you, you might want to address your own insecurities.

The only reason something is offensive if because you CHOOSE to be offended by it. If we'd just start there we could actually focus on real issues.

Oh, I get it! Like when the KKK burns crosses in a black man's lawn! It's not their fault I'm offended, it's my fault! Oh wow, now that I've addressed my inner insecurities, I can't imagine why I've ever been offended in my life! Thanks, internet stranger! Now when I see that white guy call a homeless guy a n*gger I know that truly, deep down inside, I'm okay with it!


How is that even remotely the same thing?

You really enjoy being a victim, don't you?
 
2012-12-06 11:26:48 AM

Biv: How is that even remotely the same thing?

You really enjoy being a victim, don't you?


Just making fun of your silly statement that the only reason something is offensive is because a person chooses to be offended. After all, the n word is just a word. You choose to be offended by it, right?
 
2012-12-06 11:28:14 AM

PandaPorn: I don't know what part of the country you live in, but I have lived all my life all over the country and have never encountered something even resembling what you describe. The disease thing I couldn't care less about as every culture has its own swear words, and I personally don't see swear words as immature. As for the children being badly raised is a matter of perception in my opinion. We tend to draw that criticism from the belgians as well, but that's usually because they are used to raise kids in a different, stricter way, not because of any fundamental differences in the end result.

And I also think it's ironic that you stereotype an entire culture (the dutch) while speaking out against discrimination. You have to admit it's a bit hypocritical.


I'm in Den Haag, work in Rotterdam. I frankly don't have time to write a post detailing every horrid experience, so I'll simply say that you are lucky to not have experienced it yourself. I hear that from a lot of people here, funny enough. Maybe I'm just having a shiatty, unique, racism-and-inconsideration-filled experience. I'm not being snarky, could be true.

Regarding children, yes, it is a matter of perception. I perceive that kids running screaming and completely unchecked on a train to be inappropriate. Kids screaming through the Wereldmuseum, same thing. Teenagers spraying deoderant on their armpits on the train? Ditto. Children picking up raw eggs in a toko and throwing them onto food, the walls, and the windows while the mother stands there and clucks her tongue at the kid? Way out of line. I may have been raised to strict, but I never would have dreamt of back-talking the way kids do here. Stereotype? Sure. What I've seen with my own eyes? Definitely.

Regarding the overall lack of consideration here - in my experience that is not just a stereotype, it has been the truth in the overwhelming majority of my experiences.. In no other country have I stood looking at the frozen section at a grocery store, only to have someone step directly between me and the case and stand there looking - more than once. Bike riders taking up half the street and not caring that cars were building up behind them, bicyclists signalling to turn without looking and striking me in the process (this has happened more than once). Here, I expect someone to bang right into me while walking past (or hit me with their shopping cart/bag/backpack/hand), and not make a token apology. Lack of awareness of others, I suppose I should say, though that leads directly to a lack of consideration. Funny enough, my white friends here say that it is because all Dutch consider everyone equal. My non-white friends say that it is a holdover from colonial times, when the whites didn't have to be considerate to anyone non-white. I don't know. I just don't particularly like it.
 
2012-12-06 11:32:02 AM

Let's
all be
victims!

\o/
|
/ \
 
2012-12-06 11:32:19 AM
It's not 'racist' and fark you if you think it is.
 
Biv
2012-12-06 11:32:25 AM

Rincewind53: Biv: How is that even remotely the same thing?

You really enjoy being a victim, don't you?

Just making fun of your silly statement that the only reason something is offensive is because a person chooses to be offended. After all, the n word is just a word. You choose to be offended by it, right?


I was actually talking about the cross burning. As for "the n word" (farking childish), yes. It has no power over you unless you choose to be offended by it.
 
2012-12-06 11:32:44 AM
Eh. Sorry. I'm tired and in pain, and just came back from another completely useless doctor's appointment (that I had to go to, in order for the doctor to tell me that I would get a letter in the mail telling me when my next appointment is - because NONE of that could have happened over the phone).

This isn't the place for me to live for a long period of time, and I get reminded of that on a regular basis. My work contract is up at the end of July, I know they won't renew it, and I'm trying to figure out where to go next. Preferably a place where it isn't the norm for people to let their dogs sh*t on the sidewalk and between cars, and then never dream of picking up the mess. Gawd knows nobody else might step in it or ride their bike through it. Filthy.
 
2012-12-06 11:33:46 AM

Biv: Rincewind53: Biv: How is that even remotely the same thing?

You really enjoy being a victim, don't you?

Just making fun of your silly statement that the only reason something is offensive is because a person chooses to be offended. After all, the n word is just a word. You choose to be offended by it, right?

I was actually talking about the cross burning. As for "the n word" (farking childish), yes. It has no power over you unless you choose to be offended by it.


Aww, that's precious. Why don't you go preach that to your nearest black friend?
 
2012-12-06 11:36:10 AM

Rincewind53: Yes. Black Peter is an incredibly racist tradition. Sorry Dutch people, but you're perpetuating a racist tradition. Get rid of it.


What's racist about it? If it's not done in order to demean another group, I simply don't see the problem. Are drag artists sexist?
 
2012-12-06 11:38:24 AM

mekki: Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.


What, precisely, do you mean by "racist" in this context?
 
2012-12-06 11:38:42 AM

orbister: Rincewind53: Yes. Black Peter is an incredibly racist tradition. Sorry Dutch people, but you're perpetuating a racist tradition. Get rid of it.

What's racist about it? If it's not done in order to demean another group, I simply don't see the problem. Are drag artists sexist?


upload.wikimedia.org

Demeaning things done without specific desire to demean are still demeaning. But if you're curious as to why blackface is demeaning, go Wiki it.
 
2012-12-06 11:39:09 AM
No, it's not. It's racist to assume it's an insult to be employed in a less than managerial capacity simply based on the color of the employee.
 
Biv
2012-12-06 11:39:33 AM

Rincewind53: Biv: Rincewind53: Biv: How is that even remotely the same thing?

You really enjoy being a victim, don't you?

Just making fun of your silly statement that the only reason something is offensive is because a person chooses to be offended. After all, the n word is just a word. You choose to be offended by it, right?

I was actually talking about the cross burning. As for "the n word" (farking childish), yes. It has no power over you unless you choose to be offended by it.

Aww, that's precious. Why don't you go preach that to your nearest black friend?


I have, and he agrees. What else you got?

It's a word. A combination of vowels and consonants. It has no more power than any other word. If it did, it wouldn't be flung around so casually in the black community.

The only difference between a black guy using it and a white guy using it is whether or not you choose to be offended by it when it's used.
 
2012-12-06 11:40:02 AM

Witchydiva: Regarding the "but... it is TRADITION" bullsh*t" - so was slavery, so were women as chattel, so was Prima Nocta/ droit du seigneur, and a whole lot of other things that modern society finally saw as inappropriate relics from a bygone era.


Ius Prima Nocta was invented for Braveheart. It never existed, but gives a lot of ignorant people a chance to feel outraged.
 
2012-12-06 11:41:24 AM

DROxINxTHExWIND: No malice behind portraying black women as fat, uneducated, house-dress wearing, simpletons?


Do you also think that Hamlet portrays all white men as vacillating, tight-wearing, introspective vigilantes?
 
2012-12-06 11:42:55 AM

Witchydiva: PandaPorn: I don't know what part of the country you live in, but I have lived all my life all over the country and have never encountered something even resembling what you describe. The disease thing I couldn't care less about as every culture has its own swear words, and I personally don't see swear words as immature. As for the children being badly raised is a matter of perception in my opinion. We tend to draw that criticism from the belgians as well, but that's usually because they are used to raise kids in a different, stricter way, not because of any fundamental differences in the end result.

And I also think it's ironic that you stereotype an entire culture (the dutch) while speaking out against discrimination. You have to admit it's a bit hypocritical.

I'm in Den Haag, work in Rotterdam. I frankly don't have time to write a post detailing every horrid experience, so I'll simply say that you are lucky to not have experienced it yourself. I hear that from a lot of people here, funny enough. Maybe I'm just having a shiatty, unique, racism-and-inconsideration-filled experience. I'm not being snarky, could be true.

Regarding children, yes, it is a matter of perception. I perceive that kids running screaming and completely unchecked on a train to be inappropriate. Kids screaming through the Wereldmuseum, same thing. Teenagers spraying deoderant on their armpits on the train? Ditto. Children picking up raw eggs in a toko and throwing them onto food, the walls, and the windows while the mother stands there and clucks her tongue at the kid? Way out of line. I may have been raised to strict, but I never would have dreamt of back-talking the way kids do here. Stereotype? Sure. What I've seen with my own eyes? Definitely.

Regarding the overall lack of consideration here - in my experience that is not just a stereotype, it has been the truth in the overwhelming majority of my experiences.. In no other country have I stood looking at the frozen section at a grocery ...


I have never experienced anything close to that. You may be having a unique experience.

Rincewind53: Biv: How is that even remotely the same thing?

You really enjoy being a victim, don't you?

Just making fun of your silly statement that the only reason something is offensive is because a person chooses to be offended. After all, the n word is just a word. You choose to be offended by it, right?


I also don't know anyone offended by that word. But I do hang out with unusual characters.
 
2012-12-06 11:44:07 AM

Biv:
I have, and he agrees. What else you got?

It's a word. A combination of vowels and consonants. It has no more power than any other word. If it did, it wouldn't be flung around so casually in the black community.

The only difference between a black guy using it and a white guy using it is whether or not you choose to be offended by it when it's used.


Okay Mr. Spock, when you're done rationally rejecting all the offensive things in the word through the power of your "It's just a word" argument, I'd like your advice on eliminating all racism in America, since it's all in people's heads and we just need to get them to be rational and choose not to be racist.
 
2012-12-06 11:44:17 AM

orbister: Witchydiva: Regarding the "but... it is TRADITION" bullsh*t" - so was slavery, so were women as chattel, so was Prima Nocta/ droit du seigneur, and a whole lot of other things that modern society finally saw as inappropriate relics from a bygone era.

Ius Prima Nocta was invented for Braveheart. It never existed, but gives a lot of ignorant people a chance to feel outraged.


Tell that to Herodotus, the Ottoman Empire, and the Kurds.
 
2012-12-06 11:44:49 AM

Rincewind53: Well, except for, you know, all the Surinamese, or the other non-white people who complain. You know, those whose ancestors were subjected to brutal and horrific Dutch colonialism.


When the US is a little more than eleven years after repealing the last state laws against miscegenation (Alabama, 2001) we Europeans may be a little more inclined to take lessons in anti-racism from you.
 
2012-12-06 11:45:42 AM

T.M.S.: I also don't know anyone offended by that word. But I do hang out with unusual characters.


Fair. Showbiz characters tend to be more permissive. But I guarantee if you drop some of your black acquaintances in the South and some redneck comes up and calls him the n word and tells him to get the hell out, he'd be offended.
 
2012-12-06 11:50:52 AM

Witchydiva: I'm in Den Haag, work in Rotterdam. I frankly don't have time to write a post detailing every horrid experience, so I'll simply say that you are lucky to not have experienced it yourself. I hear that from a lot of people here, funny enough. Maybe I'm just having a shiatty, unique, racism-and-inconsideration-filled experience. I'm not being snarky, could be true.

Regarding children, yes, it is a matter of perception. I perceive that kids running screaming and completely unchecked on a train to be inappropriate. Kids screaming through the Wereldmuseum, same thing. Teenagers spraying deoderant on their armpits on the train? Ditto. Children picking up raw eggs in a toko and throwing them onto food, the walls, and the windows while the mother stands there and clucks her tongue at the kid? Way out of line. I may have been raised to strict, but I never would have dreamt of back-talking the way kids do here. Stereotype? Sure. What I've seen with my own eyes? Definitely.

Regarding the overall lack of consideration here - in my experience that is not just a stereotype, it has been the truth in the overwhelming majority of my experiences.. In no other country have I stood looking at the frozen section at a grocery store, only to have someone step directly between me and the case and stand there looking - more than once. Bike riders taking up half the street and not caring that cars were building up behind them, bicyclists signalling to turn without looking and striking me in the process (this has happened more than once). Here, I expect someone to bang right into me while walking past (or hit me with their shopping cart/bag/backpack/hand), and not make a token apology. Lack of awareness of others, I suppose I should say, though that leads directly to a lack of consideration. Funny enough, my white friends here say that it is because all Dutch consider everyone equal. My non-white friends say that it is a holdover from colonial times, when the whites didn't have to be considerate to anyone non-white. I don't know. I just don't particularly like it.


All things you describe (and in particular about the children) sounds awful. I personally don't know of anyone here who would put up with such behavior. But I know so many people who abhor that, that it can't be a cultural thing in my opinion. Sounds like you just encountered an awful lot of horrible people. You are right about the cyclist though, they are a very inconsiderate bunch of people. I also don't think it has anything to do with colonial times as only a small portion of the population actually lived in the colonies. What I often hear though is that we can be rather blunt, which can be seen as inconsiderate I guess.
 
2012-12-06 11:51:39 AM

orbister: Rincewind53: Well, except for, you know, all the Surinamese, or the other non-white people who complain. You know, those whose ancestors were subjected to brutal and horrific Dutch colonialism.

When the US is a little more than eleven years after repealing the last state laws against miscegenation (Alabama, 2001) we Europeans may be a little more inclined to take lessons in anti-racism from you.


Ah, the old "mote of dust" logical fallacy (tinged with a somewhat incorrect view of history; state laws against miscegenation were all ruled unconstitutional in 1967, so repealing them was symbolic only). Might I suggest that perhaps as an American I may have a slightly better view of what's racist because of our recent far-more-blatant racist past? Or perhaps I should point out the recent Dutch history of colonial atrocities as a way of showing that America is by no means alone. After all, the Dutch massacred at least 4,000-5,000 Indonesians (the Indonesians claim it was 40,000-50,000) after World War II, and had in general treated their colonial properties with brutality for centuries prior to that.
 
2012-12-06 11:55:10 AM

orbister: DROxINxTHExWIND: No malice behind portraying black women as fat, uneducated, house-dress wearing, simpletons?

Do you also think that Hamlet portrays all white men as vacillating, tight-wearing, introspective vigilantes?


*Sigh*

When will people get over the whole, "if THAT'S offensive then THIS is offensive" stuff? Keep your eye on the ball. We're talking about Mammy. Oh, and no that is not what I think.
 
2012-12-06 11:55:10 AM

super_grass: Yes it's offensive, but this is coming from one of the last countries to ever outlaw slavery, whose genocide of an entire continent of people have been sugarcoated and made a federal holiday for gluttons to gorge themselves.

Pot, kettle, etc...


*cough* Apartheid
 
2012-12-06 11:57:51 AM

HotWingConspiracy: Public Savant: No, YOU go read up on the history of thanksgiving and put a stop to that celebration of what is basically the beginning of an atrocity, before you go pointing fingers at the culture and customs of other countries.

We generally don't have brown faced imps dancing about on Thanksgiving. Generally.


As long as you don't have the NFL on the screen
 
2012-12-06 11:58:06 AM

T.M.S.: I also don't know anyone offended by that word. But I do hang out with unusual characters crackas.


ftfy
 
2012-12-06 11:58:45 AM

Rincewind53: T.M.S.: I also don't know anyone offended by that word. But I do hang out with unusual characters.

Fair. Showbiz characters tend to be more permissive. But I guarantee if you drop some of your black acquaintances in the South and some redneck comes up and calls him the n word and tells him to get the hell out, he'd be offended.


Most of them are from the south. Even the ones raised in northern cities claim to be from the south. Which is something I never understood.

But yes you are correct. They would certainly react poorly. Not sure though if I would use the word offended.

Now, burn a cross on their front yard and things would go way beyond "offended".
 
2012-12-06 12:00:29 PM

trappedspirit: T.M.S.: I also don't know anyone offended by that word. But I do hang out with unusual characters crackas.

ftfy


Now that is a word my friends would be offended by.
 
2012-12-06 12:00:48 PM

kingoomieiii: super_grass: Yes it's offensive, but this is coming from one of the last countries to ever outlaw slavery, whose genocide of an entire continent of people have been sugarcoated and made a federal holiday for gluttons to gorge themselves.

Pot, kettle, etc...

*cough* Apartheid


It's also ridiculous because the Dutch were the ones selling slaves to the Americans, and in fact didn't outlaw slavery in their colonies until 1863, which is, you know, about the same time the United States did.
 
Biv
2012-12-06 12:03:06 PM

Rincewind53: Biv:
I have, and he agrees. What else you got?

It's a word. A combination of vowels and consonants. It has no more power than any other word. If it did, it wouldn't be flung around so casually in the black community.

The only difference between a black guy using it and a white guy using it is whether or not you choose to be offended by it when it's used.

Okay Mr. Spock, when you're done rationally rejecting all the offensive things in the word through the power of your "It's just a word" argument, I'd like your advice on eliminating all racism in America, since it's all in people's heads and we just need to get them to be rational and choose not to be racist.


It'll never happen. A segment of the population will always be prejudice in one way or another. It's always been that way and it's not going to change.

But guess what? Most white people are not racist, even the ones who dress in blackface. We have an unhealthy obsession with words and the possibility of offending people. Which is just stupid and childish. No word is offensive unless you saddle it with an emotional reaction which is entirely personal.

You want to go after a real race problem? A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton? That ass has done more to destroy race relations in this country than thousands of KKK members ever could. If "the n word" is so offensive to you, maybe you should take a good hard look at the people who told you that you should be offended by it.
 
2012-12-06 12:03:07 PM
lots of hot women in Curacao. Apparently the Dutch/Islander mix makes for a glorious combination.
 
2012-12-06 12:04:31 PM

Rincewind53: T.M.S.: I also don't know anyone offended by that word. But I do hang out with unusual characters.

Fair. Showbiz characters tend to be more permissive. But I guarantee if you drop some of your black acquaintances in the South and some redneck comes up and calls him the n word and tells him to get the hell out, he'd be offended.


Bigot.
 
Biv
2012-12-06 12:07:04 PM

wellreadneck: Rincewind53: T.M.S.: I also don't know anyone offended by that word. But I do hang out with unusual characters.

Fair. Showbiz characters tend to be more permissive. But I guarantee if you drop some of your black acquaintances in the South and some redneck comes up and calls him the n word and tells him to get the hell out, he'd be offended.

Bigot.


Excellent.
 
2012-12-06 12:08:44 PM

Biv:

You want to go after a real race problem? A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton? That ass has done more to destroy race relations in this country than thousands of KKK members ever could. If "the n word" is so offensive to you, maybe you should take a good hard look at the people who told you that you should be offended by it.


Holy shiat that is just so goddamn wrong and so incredibly ignorant of the history of race in this country that I cannot even begin to fathom where to start. So instead I will post this slightly off-topic but slightly on-topic cartoon:

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-06 12:08:51 PM

Biv: Rincewind53: Biv:
I have, and he agrees. What else you got?

It's a word. A combination of vowels and consonants. It has no more power than any other word. If it did, it wouldn't be flung around so casually in the black community.

The only difference between a black guy using it and a white guy using it is whether or not you choose to be offended by it when it's used.

Okay Mr. Spock, when you're done rationally rejecting all the offensive things in the word through the power of your "It's just a word" argument, I'd like your advice on eliminating all racism in America, since it's all in people's heads and we just need to get them to be rational and choose not to be racist.

It'll never happen. A segment of the population will always be prejudice in one way or another. It's always been that way and it's not going to change.

But guess what? Most white people are not racist, even the ones who dress in blackface. We have an unhealthy obsession with words and the possibility of offending people. Which is just stupid and childish. No word is offensive unless you saddle it with an emotional reaction which is entirely personal.

You want to go after a real race problem? A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton? That ass has done more to destroy race relations in this country than thousands of KKK members ever could. If "the n word" is so offensive to you, maybe you should take a good hard look at the people who told you that you should be offended by it.


You could have summed up that entire post by just saying, "I know nothing about history and I don't care to know. Nor do I care about other people."

/The extra words weren't needed
 
Biv
2012-12-06 12:11:03 PM

Rincewind53: Biv:

You want to go after a real race problem? A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton? That ass has done more to destroy race relations in this country than thousands of KKK members ever could. If "the n word" is so offensive to you, maybe you should take a good hard look at the people who told you that you should be offended by it.

Holy shiat that is just so goddamn wrong and so incredibly ignorant of the history of race in this country that I cannot even begin to fathom where to start. So instead I will post this slightly off-topic but slightly on-topic cartoon:

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x529]


You really don't think Sharpton is a racist? Then you are a lost cause.
 
2012-12-06 12:12:41 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Gonz: Hell, I'd go one step farther. Imagine a guy on the streets today wearing a red velvet coat with fur trim, and a jaunty hat.

Did I just describe Santa? Or a pimp?

Does he have a beard? Pimps are generally well groomed.


t1.gstatic.com

Also
i1197.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-06 12:13:59 PM

Biv: You really don't think Sharpton is a racist? Then you are a lost cause.


You're seriously like those Christians who scream about how incredibly insensitive and bigoted atheists are because they dare fight back. Also, your statement was that Al Sharpton had not only done more to destroy race relations in America than thousands of KKK members, and also implied that it was only black people that told me that the n word was offensive. You don't get to move your goalposts back and claim all you said was "Al Sharpton is a racist."
 
2012-12-06 12:19:23 PM

HotWingConspiracy: "But it's tradition!"

I'm sensing a huge business opportunity in exporting "Heritage, not Hate" swag over there.


What? Is "Heritage, not Hate" a thing?

Does it mean what I suspect it means? Is what people say when they display a swastika or a confederate battle flag and then says "I'm not racist because I'm hateful! I'm only racist because my daddy was racist!"

I really hope that's not what it is, because that's about stupid enough to cross into the Poe's Law territory.
 
2012-12-06 12:23:17 PM

Rincewind53: Thallone1: So let me get this straight. If I, a white person, were to become incredibly famous to the point that people a thousand years later are throwing parades in my honor, it would be racist for them to depict my assistant if he happened to be black? And now is it not more racist (or at least insensitive) to not acknowledge that Peter was black? Should Peter be depicted as white? Asian? Tell me how Peter should be depicted if not as black.

Now, to have a white dude in blackface? Offensive as all fark. But still not racist, because you're attempting to accurately depict a scene of a white dude and a black dude. Much better of course simply to *find* a black dude to play Peter.

The tradition is 150 years old. Not thousands of years old.


Sorry. I guess that makes it worse somehow to depict things as they occurred rather than by today's standards.
 
2012-12-06 12:23:29 PM

Witchydiva: mekki: McManus_brothers: But, but, they're Europeans! And we know they're never racist! So it's cool!

The funny thing is, I've heard from many Europeans that they are offended by this. Not in the usual way you would think so. That is, Black Pete being a racist caricature. But that the ones who are complaining about Black Pete the most are Americans. And how dare Americans be fascist bullies and think what they find offensive should be standard to what everyone finds offensive. That in their non-American culture, they doesn't have a history of blackface or at least blackface that is found offensive by the public, so therefore they should be able to do it and NO ONE should complain.

Very much this.

If you get offended by Zwarte Piet, it is because of your own country's racist history and your thin skin. People literally get violent over it! It has nothing to do with the fact that nationally celebrating a holiday by dressing up and acting as a racial stereotype is offensive.

And anyone who thinks the Dutch don't have a history of racism even longer and more brutal than America is ignorant or fooling themselves.


lichnosti.net
Those Muthafarkers!
 
2012-12-06 12:23:53 PM

Biv: No word is offensive unless you saddle it with an emotional reaction which is entirely personal.


You sound autistic.

Or trolloly.

Whatever.
 
2012-12-06 12:26:36 PM

Witchydiva: PandaPorn: I don't know what part of the country you live in, but I have lived all my life all over the country and have never encountered something even resembling what you describe. The disease thing I couldn't care less about as every culture has its own swear words, and I personally don't see swear words as immature. As for the children being badly raised is a matter of perception in my opinion. We tend to draw that criticism from the belgians as well, but that's usually because they are used to raise kids in a different, stricter way, not because of any fundamental differences in the end result.

And I also think it's ironic that you stereotype an entire culture (the dutch) while speaking out against discrimination. You have to admit it's a bit hypocritical.

I'm in Den Haag, work in Rotterdam. I frankly don't have time to write a post detailing every horrid experience, so I'll simply say that you are lucky to not have experienced it yourself. I hear that from a lot of people here, funny enough. Maybe I'm just having a shiatty, unique, racism-and-inconsideration-filled experience. I'm not being snarky, could be true.


The Dutch are well known assholes. This is not a racial thing. They are very fair and can be very kind, generous and loving people, but to a man, woman and child, they have shiat for manners. I look like Thor on a good hair day and they are just as rude to me as anyone else. They have an inborn irritation with migrants, because of Moroccans and Algerians, who are universally a horrible, criminal people and frankly abuse the Dutch social systems Dutch society and shiat all over the place(not metaphorically, I have seen Moroccans shiatting in public in A'dam) and engage in bad behavior, but its not just you.

Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.
 
2012-12-06 12:29:16 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: mekki: Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?

Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.

No malice behind portraying black women as fat, uneducated, house-dress wearing, simpletons? Thats news.


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2012-12-06 12:31:34 PM
Everything is racist
 
2012-12-06 12:32:33 PM
This discussion parallels the discussion of European-descended people co-opting Indian/First Nation/Aboriginal regalia for their Halloween costumes and sports teams insignia. The potential for offense is when a dominant culture colonizes not only the oppressed culture's homeland, but their very appearance too, without their permission. Imagine if someone created a character in a film, or for a marketing purpose, that was based on you personally without your permission. It doesn't matter if it's a positively portrayal (though the character is kind of hideous to look at--what black person ever had ruby red lips?), they didn't ask you if it was okay. Those are personality rights, which in the U.S. and many other countries, are protected by statute. There aren't personality rights for specific cultures, of course, but similar lines of respect ought to exist. However, those lines are often difficult to see for the culture doing the taking, because historically they were ignored because it was a demonstration of power, or because it was "for a good reason". Just look at all of the "but it's being done without malice!" defenses in this thread. The nature of the intention doesn't matter. Who has the intent, and who grants permission and respects that permission (or lack thereof) is what matters. The argument that Saint Nicholas converted Muslims so that somehow makes it okay also doesn't fly either. Religious conversion is just another kind of colonization. Imagine if the character was Christian Jew Piet and folks portraying him dressed up in 19th century Hasidic garb ("it's historic!") with comically over-sized rubber noses.
 
2012-12-06 12:39:05 PM
Seems idiotic to whine about this now.
but hey
the culture of victimhood never sleeps
someone will always be offended
and it will need a protector

so what's the next thing that must be stopped?
C'mon C'mon..gimme something!!!
 
2012-12-06 12:42:04 PM
How about portraying him more as the tamed devil he originally was? Get a bald white man, paint him ALL BLACK (no red lips no fro) and have him dance about? Therefore we go back 100 years, erasing the Dutch Colonial period?
Would that be acceptable to all?

(and it'd have to be black, because santa's already red.
 
2012-12-06 12:42:06 PM

Biv: Rincewind53: Biv:

You want to go after a real race problem? A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton? That ass has done more to destroy race relations in this country than thousands of KKK members ever could. If "the n word" is so offensive to you, maybe you should take a good hard look at the people who told you that you should be offended by it.

Holy shiat that is just so goddamn wrong and so incredibly ignorant of the history of race in this country that I cannot even begin to fathom where to start. So instead I will post this slightly off-topic but slightly on-topic cartoon:

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x529]

You really don't think Sharpton is a racist? Then you are a lost cause.


I have never meet Sharpton so it's impossible for me to know if he is a racist. But he is certainly a disgusting excuse for a human being and shameful opportunist willing to exploit sensitive racial issues for personal gain.

Actually, yeah. He is a racist. And a gigantic douchebag.
 
2012-12-06 12:46:52 PM

Happy Hours: DROxINxTHExWIND: mekki: Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?

Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.

No malice behind portraying black women as fat, uneducated, house-dress wearing, simpletons? Thats news.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 208x242]


What is that, a stock photo of a nurse? Did she also mispronounce her wors and speak in boken English? Oh now I get it. There was sexism in the past, so Mammy isn't racist. *Smacks forehead* Makes sense.
 
2012-12-06 12:58:46 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Happy Hours: DROxINxTHExWIND: mekki: Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?

Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.

No malice behind portraying black women as fat, uneducated, house-dress wearing, simpletons? Thats news.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 208x242]

What is that, a stock photo of a nurse? Did she also mispronounce her wors and speak in boken English? Oh now I get it. There was sexism in the past, so Mammy isn't racist. *Smacks forehead* Makes sense.


Uh, no - not a nurse. Just a fat, uneducated, uniform, wearing, simpleton live-in maid.

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2012-12-06 01:11:32 PM

Biv: You want to go after a real race problem? A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton? That ass has done more to destroy race relations in this country than thousands of KKK members ever could. If "the n word" is so offensive to you, maybe you should take a good hard look at the people who told you that you should be offended by it.


It took you a really long time to get to "NUH UH, RACISTS AREN'T RACISTS, BLACK PEOPLE ARE".

That's boilerplate around here, more of a jumping off point.
 
2012-12-06 01:13:48 PM

ThePastafarian: Witchydiva: eldezod: sodomizer: We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.

You've convinced me. RAAAAACCEEE WAAAAAARRRR!

FREEEEEE BIIIIIIIIRD!

AAASSS YOOUUUU WIIIIIIISSHHHH


KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

/what?
 
2012-12-06 01:18:31 PM
Why not just do what the pubs do and make the guy blue? Instead of Santa having an alien helper with black skin (because let's face it, there is no living human that looks like someone in blackface, so I'm going to assume anyone in blackface is supposed to be an alien from Mars or something), it's an alien helper with blue skin. Or green. Hell, go crazy with it.

You can actually update traditions without destroying them. You just have to be intelligent about it.
 
2012-12-06 01:18:37 PM

The Larch: HotWingConspiracy: "But it's tradition!"

I'm sensing a huge business opportunity in exporting "Heritage, not Hate" swag over there.

What? Is "Heritage, not Hate" a thing?

Does it mean what I suspect it means? Is what people say when they display a swastika or a confederate battle flag and then says "I'm not racist because I'm hateful! I'm only racist because my daddy was racist!"

I really hope that's not what it is, because that's about stupid enough to cross into the Poe's Law territory.


You pretty much nailed it, and it's definitely a thing. They've got bumper stickers and shiat.
 
2012-12-06 01:25:04 PM

SweetDickens: "Aunt Jemima makes good syrup, 'bout the best that anyone can, whether regular or buttered its the best brand in the land"

Yep, don't see it.......


That's the "Log Cabin" jingle.
 
2012-12-06 01:50:36 PM

impaler: hdhale: Social engineering experiments, such as mandatory school busing and massive housing projects, were total failures in America

What about school desegregation?


Depends upon the level of education you are talking about. If you are talking about higher education, that process was already well underway before the 1960s. When Mississippi Governor Ross R. Barnett made his famous proclamation in 1962, it was met with outrage in the vast majority of the country, not support.

Busing was intended to promote school desegregation at the K-12 level. Instead, whites moved out at an increasing rate from urban areas where busing was taking place, and city schools, neighborhoods and businesses suffered. In the area where I grew up, whole massive suburbs consisting of almost entirely residential neighborhoods grew and rejected incorporation into the larger city core, instead incorporating into independent cities of their own. It was only decades later that minorities started moving into these suburbs and real integration started to take place.
 
2012-12-06 01:58:03 PM
satwcomic.com

( http://satwcomic.com/black-pete )
 
2012-12-06 02:10:28 PM

orbister: Witchydiva: Regarding the "but... it is TRADITION" bullsh*t" - so was slavery, so were women as chattel, so was Prima Nocta/ droit du seigneur, and a whole lot of other things that modern society finally saw as inappropriate relics from a bygone era.

Ius Prima Nocta was invented for Braveheart. It never existed, but gives a lot of ignorant people a chance to feel outraged.


It was a legend that in the historical record was always mentioned as something "those other people do" with no evidence that anyone ever practiced it.

I think it's an ancient way of calling someone's Mom a whore.
 
2012-12-06 02:12:19 PM

Happy Hours: DROxINxTHExWIND: Happy Hours: DROxINxTHExWIND: mekki: Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?

Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.

No malice behind portraying black women as fat, uneducated, house-dress wearing, simpletons? Thats news.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 208x242]

What is that, a stock photo of a nurse? Did she also mispronounce her wors and speak in boken English? Oh now I get it. There was sexism in the past, so Mammy isn't racist. *Smacks forehead* Makes sense.

Uh, no - not a nurse. Just a fat, uneducated, uniform, wearing, simpleton live-in maid.

[encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com image 329x153]


Is the crux of your argument that since there was once a fat, uneducated, uniform wearing, white woman on TV so there was(is) no malice in the Mammy stereotype?
 
2012-12-06 02:20:04 PM

PsiChick: Why not just do what the pubs do and make the guy blue? Instead of Santa having an alien helper with black skin (because let's face it, there is no living human that looks like someone in blackface, so I'm going to assume anyone in blackface is supposed to be an alien from Mars or something), it's an alien helper with blue skin. Or green. Hell, go crazy with it.

You can actually update traditions without destroying them. You just have to be intelligent about it.


That's probably the best way to go about it. If they want to stick with the whole "he's black because he's covered in soot" make it actually look like that and get rid of the big red lips and the afro. Use a mix of brown, black and grey for face paint.
 
2012-12-06 02:32:50 PM

hdhale: Depends upon the level of education you are talking about. If you are talking about higher education, that process was already well underway before the 1960s. When Mississippi Governor Ross R. Barnett made his famous proclamation in 1962, it was met with outrage in the vast majority of the country, not support.


How did it play in the south? Was desegregation "well underway" there?
 
2012-12-06 02:40:48 PM

cherryl taggart: HotWingConspiracy: Public Savant: No, YOU go read up on the history of thanksgiving and put a stop to that celebration of what is basically the beginning of an atrocity, before you go pointing fingers at the culture and customs of other countries.

We generally don't have brown faced imps dancing about on Thanksgiving. Generally.

As long as you don't have the NFL on the screen


Cleveland didn't play on Thanksgiving day.
 
2012-12-06 02:44:52 PM

wellreadneck: Rincewind53: T.M.S.: I also don't know anyone offended by that word. But I do hang out with unusual characters.

Fair. Showbiz characters tend to be more permissive. But I guarantee if you drop some of your black acquaintances in the South and some redneck comes up and calls him the n word and tells him to get the hell out, he'd be offended.

Bigot.


I have him/her/it farkied as a Hipster Douche, but this works too!
 
2012-12-06 03:25:15 PM

shortymac: PsiChick: Why not just do what the pubs do and make the guy blue? Instead of Santa having an alien helper with black skin (because let's face it, there is no living human that looks like someone in blackface, so I'm going to assume anyone in blackface is supposed to be an alien from Mars or something), it's an alien helper with blue skin. Or green. Hell, go crazy with it.

You can actually update traditions without destroying them. You just have to be intelligent about it.

That's probably the best way to go about it. If they want to stick with the whole "he's black because he's covered in soot" make it actually look like that and get rid of the big red lips and the afro. Use a mix of brown, black and grey for face paint.


That would still raise the question of 'why the hell is Santa toting around a guy who can't figure out what a bathtub is', though. :p
 
2012-12-06 03:25:50 PM

ruta: what black person ever had ruby red lips?


Lynne Thigpen, RIP
 
2012-12-06 03:41:51 PM

lysdexic: ThePastafarian: Witchydiva: eldezod: sodomizer: We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.

You've convinced me. RAAAAACCEEE WAAAAAARRRR!

FREEEEEE BIIIIIIIIRD!

AAASSS YOOUUUU WIIIIIIISSHHHH

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

/what?


DECEPTICONS, RETRRREEEAAATTT!!!
 
2012-12-06 03:51:32 PM

willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.


This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.
 
2012-12-06 03:56:47 PM

Iceberg659: Is the crux of your argument that since there was once a fat, uneducated, uniform wearing, white woman on TV so there was(is) no malice in the Mammy stereotype?


Are you saying there was malice in depicting any women that way?

There was malice? Really?

Yeah, it was all a part of a big conspiracy to keep the black man down. That's why the Evans family on Good Times were portrayed as poor too.
 
2012-12-06 04:04:26 PM

Witchydiva: willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.

This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.



See, what did I tell you? I think being a prick is the Dutch national hobby.
 
2012-12-06 04:24:13 PM
I guess we should just be happy that the Dutch (those snooty, racist twits) don't call Santa's helper "N♠gger Pete".

I currently live in a predominantly Dutch, Catholic city in America. The Dutch here are not the most open-minded, tolerant people in the world, I can tell you. If you're not one of them, you're an outsider ("If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much.") and if you're a minority, you're not very welcome unless they're trying to bolster their image through charity. They will send money to feed brown people (in the name of Jesus) halfway around the world, but they wouldn't give a wooden nickel for a low-income Black family in their own city.

They have this air of false generosity that stinks of religious narcissism. Oh, how I dislike dealing with them during an election year... They have this way of saying things that sound like pleasantries, but are really meant to put you in your place if you're not a member of their social class.

As Nigel Powers said, there are only two things I hate in this world: People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.

/I'm kidding. I don't hate the Dutch.
//I just hate living around them and being treated like dog poo by snooty Dutch people. I'm indifferent to them, otherwise.
///I realize that the ones here in America are the ones who were so religiously intolerant that they were kicked out of their homeland.
 
2012-12-06 04:45:10 PM

Witchydiva: willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.

This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.


I'm surprised considering you speak Dutch. Most people tend to be responsive to folks that speak their own language.
 
2012-12-06 04:49:22 PM
We need to do everything we can to accomodate the insecurities of others.
 
2012-12-06 04:52:30 PM

T.M.S.:
I'm surprised considering you speak Dutch. Most people tend to be responsive to folks that speak their own language.


My Dutch isn't that great. I can understand about half of what is said, but it is tough to reply, still. My German and French are MUCh better. Tough to learn a language when everyone switches to English immediate when they hear my accent. :/
 
2012-12-06 05:15:31 PM

Witchydiva: willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.

This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.


Actually, the part about "give me back my grandfather's bike!" is hilarious.

I don't mean to sound callous, but based on your posts in this thread, I'd be willing to bet that whatever country you are in, they are damn glad when you leave.

/just kidding. I don't really care if that sounded callous.
 
2012-12-06 05:16:21 PM

Witchydiva: T.M.S.:
I'm surprised considering you speak Dutch. Most people tend to be responsive to folks that speak their own language.

My Dutch isn't that great. I can understand about half of what is said, but it is tough to reply, still. My German and French are MUCh better. Tough to learn a language when everyone switches to English immediate when they hear my accent. :/


Then why did you send me to a Dutch site telling me it was a source to learn about your friends if even you don't understand it?

And why did you tell the folks in the bar you were part German if they made you feel so uncomfortable?

You really don't seem to like the Dutch people much and have no problem lumping the entire nation into one bag of perceived "assholness".

It all seems odd to me.
 
2012-12-06 05:30:05 PM

T.M.S.: Witchydiva: T.M.S.:
I'm surprised considering you speak Dutch. Most people tend to be responsive to folks that speak their own language.

My Dutch isn't that great. I can understand about half of what is said, but it is tough to reply, still. My German and French are MUCh better. Tough to learn a language when everyone switches to English immediate when they hear my accent. :/

Then why did you send me to a Dutch site telling me it was a source to learn about your friends if even you don't understand it?

And why did you tell the folks in the bar you were part German if they made you feel so uncomfortable?

You really don't seem to like the Dutch people much and have no problem lumping the entire nation into one bag of perceived "assholness".

It all seems odd to me.


This seems to be more than mere one person's anecdote
 
2012-12-06 05:51:30 PM
Haven't had time to read all your comments yet. But as a Dutch person I do think it's offensive and outdated. Not only that, but if you want to internationally profile yourself as such an open and tolerant country, this character will not stand. It's not for nothing that you will not see any Zwarte Piet images at Schiphol International Airport. The Dutch know other people take offence.

Since the late 70s there have been groups trying to change the outdated colonialist image of Zwarte Piet, but they have been small.
Now with the internets the world has become smaller. Plus there are more and more small groups out there who would like to see change. Sadly they are not one large group, but I'm confident this will soon be outdated.

I'm part of a group called Zwarte Piet is Rasistisch (link goes to a facebook group, sowwy)
It was started by a black artist who wore a t-shirt with that text to a St. Nicolas parade last year, he got arrested. According to the police because he didn't have a protest permit, he later won in court and we are now allowed to wear that t-shirt.

Meanwhile Change.org would love to get your signature, to give to the Dutch minister of Education.

And for Dutch residents, you can file a discrimination complaint here
 
2012-12-06 05:53:50 PM

Rincewind53: Ah, the old "mote of dust" logical fallacy (tinged with a somewhat incorrect view of history; state laws against miscegenation were all ruled unconstitutional in 1967, so repealing them was symbolic only). Might I suggest that perhaps as an American I may have a slightly better view of what's racist because of our recent far-more-blatant racist past?


Symbolic, eh? I think the fact that Alabama had to try four times before they could get a majority in favour of repealing blatant and unconstitutional racism is pretty farkin' symbol.

And no, I don't think you are well qualified to judge what is racist in other cultures. You come from a country where universities ask applicants to state their race, and make admission decisions based on that. Bit these things are utterly unheard-of and completely illegal throughout Europe.

So perhaps you could deal with the pervasive racism of your entire society, and not just a few easy symbols of it, before lecturing the rest of the world, eh?
 
2012-12-06 05:55:40 PM

willfullyobscure: T.M.S.: Witchydiva: T.M.S.:
I'm surprised considering you speak Dutch. Most people tend to be responsive to folks that speak their own language.

My Dutch isn't that great. I can understand about half of what is said, but it is tough to reply, still. My German and French are MUCh better. Tough to learn a language when everyone switches to English immediate when they hear my accent. :/

Then why did you send me to a Dutch site telling me it was a source to learn about your friends if even you don't understand it?

And why did you tell the folks in the bar you were part German if they made you feel so uncomfortable?

You really don't seem to like the Dutch people much and have no problem lumping the entire nation into one bag of perceived "assholness".

It all seems odd to me.

This seems to be more than mere one person's anecdote


All very amusing. But I just don't see that type of behavior often. Well, really ever. Perhaps I just have been lucky all these years.

The shiat about the Germans and the Dutch is certainly founded in truth but most of my time here is working with both of them together and the ribbing is mostly good natured. Even the grandfathers bike bit is played for laughs.

I accept that it's possible me, my friends, employees, family and everyone I know are just lucky to be spared this obnoxious and borderline threatening behavior by the Dutch. But it's seems unlikely. I just don't see it. Ever.
 
2012-12-06 05:56:27 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: When will people get over the whole, "if THAT'S offensive then THIS is offensive" stuff? Keep your eye on the ball. We're talking about Mammy.


So why do you, personally, generalise that image to all black women?
 
2012-12-06 05:56:36 PM

Happy Hours: Iceberg659: Is the crux of your argument that since there was once a fat, uneducated, uniform wearing, white woman on TV so there was(is) no malice in the Mammy stereotype?

Are you saying there was malice in depicting any women that way?

There was malice? Really?

Yeah, it was all a part of a big conspiracy to keep the black man down. That's why the Evans family on Good Times were portrayed as poor too.


Jesus. Conspiracy to keep the black man down?! Have fun with that straw man. There is no conspiracy. It's lazy writing and ignorance.

There is no malice in depicting someone as an overweight, uneducated "servant." Overweight, uneducated servants exist. The malice came in when a certain group of people was ONLY depicted as fat, uneducated servants. If you're a member of a particular group and the prevailing media representation of that group is a negative stereotype you're likely to take umbrage.
 
2012-12-06 06:02:58 PM

willfullyobscure: The Dutch are well known assholes. This is not a racial thing. They are very fair and can be very kind, generous and loving people, but to a man, woman and child, they have shiat for manners.


My experience of Dutch people has been that 90% are delightful and 10% are arrogant bastards. Oddly enough, hardly any in between those extremes. I like visiting the Netherland, though, which I have always found to be a polite, clean and easy-going country.

I suspect though, that like most of Europe, they are not terribly fond of entitled American shout-louder-honey-they-all-talk-goddam-english tourists, especially those who see the country as their personal drug dealer. This may explain some of the experiences reported here.
 
2012-12-06 06:04:24 PM

T.M.S.: Witchydiva:
My Dutch isn't that great......snip

Then why did you send me to a Dutch site telling me it was a source to learn about your friends if even you don't understand it?

And why did you tell the folks in the bar you were part German if they made you feel so uncomfortable?

You really don't seem to like the Dutch people much and have no problem lumping the entire nation into one bag of perceived "assholness".

It all seems odd to me.


I read it better than I speak, so i do understand what is on that page. I thought that since you live here and had said you'd never met anyone who thought this was racist, that you were Dutch.

I didn't. A friend I was with did, because they thought it would be funny. Give me a little bit of credit.

I like some Dutch folks just fine, just apparently not the general population. Too bad we can't trade our experiences for a day.
 
2012-12-06 06:08:15 PM

ruta: There aren't personality rights for specific cultures, of course, but similar lines of respect ought to exist.


That is a very American view of race; as complicated and illogical to outsiders as the British class system. The idea that "culture" can somehow be inherited along with skin colour is just bizarre to the rest of us.
 
2012-12-06 06:10:43 PM

shortymac: It was a legend that in the historical record was always mentioned as something "those other people do" with no evidence that anyone ever practiced it.


Much like (non-ritual) cannibalism, which has always been something that those bastards in the next valley along do.
 
2012-12-06 06:11:57 PM

orbister: And no, I don't think you are well qualified to judge what is racist in other cultures. You come from a country where universities ask applicants to state their race, and make admission decisions based on that. Bit these things are utterly unheard-of and completely illegal throughout Europe.


By this logic, no Dutch person, coming from a country that invented Apartheid and in which Geert Wilders had such popularity, could be well qualified to speak on racism. And, European universities may not ask for race on applications, but the head shots required on many CVs throughout Europe do plenty of damage on their own.

So perhaps you could deal with the pervasive racism of your entire society, and not just a few easy symbols of it, before lecturing the rest of the world, eh?

If you don't go after the easy symbols, they become a symbol of something far more insidious: tolerance and even acceptance of bigotry.
 
2012-12-06 07:00:47 PM

orbister: ruta: There aren't personality rights for specific cultures, of course, but similar lines of respect ought to exist.

That is a very American view of race; as complicated and illogical to outsiders as the British class system. The idea that "culture" can somehow be inherited along with skin colour is just bizarre to the rest of us.


I used the word "culture" because it's more meaningful than "race", which is a cultural construct. I could have used the word "ethnicity" I guess. What magical, non-discriminating-on-the-basis-of-anything-but-skin-colour would "the rest of us" live in? Certainly not any place with tribal or religious differences. Every society has its power structure for divvying folks up, even wherever you're from, I'll safely wager. [Looks at profile]. Farking Scotland?! Ha!

/not American.
 
2012-12-06 07:18:52 PM

Witchydiva: By this logic, no Dutch person, coming from a country that invented Apartheid and in which Geert Wilders had such popularity, could be well qualified to speak on racism. And, European universities may not ask for race on applications, but the head shots required on many CVs throughout Europe do plenty of damage on their own..


Apartheid you say? You mean literally translated to "segregation"? The Dutch invented that? Because it's not like you had any segregation snafus in the good ole US of A, right?
And I believe Geert had a major crash in popularity, this years vote, because people figured out he was full of hot air. But at least you never had any problems with popularism extreme right politicians in the States.

About those passport pictures, not head-shots, they require on CVs, don't necessarily affect "people of color'. Very few companies require them, it's mostly companies who rely on their employees appearance, and they mostly looooooove diversity. They love their company represent a Benetton ad. It's usually the fat n ugly who get the shaft (heh) with those companies. But who would want to work there, unless you're shallow.

About them Dutch children misbehaving, it's all about perspective, and experience. I've been a nanny in the States for several years, so from my perspective, there's no spoiled brat, like an American one. Them people let their kids get away with murder, from my perspective. At least in Holland you're still allowed to give the 'corrective spank', without Child Services taking away your kid.

What a Benetton ad may look like
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-06 07:29:36 PM

La Fee Verte:

Apartheid you say? You mean literally translated to "segregation"? The Dutch invented that? Because it's not like you had any segregation snafus in the good ole US of A, right?
And I believe Geert had a major crash in popularity, this years vote, because people figured out he was full of hot air. But at least you never had any problems with popularism extreme right politicians in the States.


I never said we didn't have problems. I was pointing out faulty logic by the original posted. But go ahead and take my words completely out of context, and out of the spirit in which they were meant.

About those passport pictures, not head-shots, they require on CVs, don't necessarily affect "people of color'. Very few companies require them, it's mostly companies who rely on their employees appearance, and they mostly looooooove diversity. They love their company represent a Benetton ad. It's usually the fat n ugly who get the shaft (heh) with those companies. But who would want to work there, unless you're shallow.

Again, the original post referred to all of Europe.i know that some countries and industries use them more than others. however, if you think colored and old folks aren't getting shafted regularly, then I don't know what to make of the many conversation I've had with people in CH, NL, FR, and the UK - with people from all over the world.
 
2012-12-06 07:39:22 PM

La Fee Verte: About them Dutch children misbehaving, it's all about perspective, and experience. I've been a nanny in the States for several years, so from my perspective, there's no spoiled brat, like an American one. Them people let their kids get away with murder, from my perspective. At least in Holland you're still allowed to give the 'corrective spank', without Child Services taking away your kid.


Odd, I thought I replied to this in the other post. Sorry.

It'd be interesting to compare American kids raised by nannies vs Dutch kids raised by nannies. I suspect there aren't that many differences. Regarding the corrective spank - apparently only if your neighbors or other parents never hear about it. My cousin spanked his daughter, and is still dealing with the authorities that another parent called on him. The parent who called? Their kid was/is part of a 5-student gang of bullies two years older than my cousin's daughter, who like to take turns cornering her and shoving her around. Im sure it has nothing to do with the fact that she is the only kid with black hair in her class. She's come home with bruises, but nobody will do anything, since you're supposed to let children do what they want.

Not so sure about how different thing are in that respect. I know plenty of American parents who swat their kids when they earn it, without thinking that CPS is going to remove the child from that house.
 
2012-12-06 07:49:36 PM

mhd: Prank Call of Cthulhu: It's still OK to portray Krampus, though.

Who could possibly object?

[i.imgur.com image 454x700]


Krampus rules.
 
2012-12-06 07:58:25 PM

Witchydiva: T.M.S.: Witchydiva:
My Dutch isn't that great......snip

Then why did you send me to a Dutch site telling me it was a source to learn about your friends if even you don't understand it?

And why did you tell the folks in the bar you were part German if they made you feel so uncomfortable?

You really don't seem to like the Dutch people much and have no problem lumping the entire nation into one bag of perceived "assholness".

It all seems odd to me.

I read it better than I speak, so i do understand what is on that page. I thought that since you live here and had said you'd never met anyone who thought this was racist, that you were Dutch.

I didn't. A friend I was with did, because they thought it would be funny. Give me a little bit of credit.

I like some Dutch folks just fine, just apparently not the general population. Too bad we can't trade our experiences for a day.


Nope. I'm an American. I live in NY and commute to Holland a couple times a month.

I don't notice much of a difference between my kids and my friends here. They are all pretty mellow. Just lucky I guess.
 
2012-12-06 08:07:57 PM

Biv: A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton?


The anti-racism activist is the REAL racist? Well look who's a walking cliche.

I assume that by "Damaged race relations" you mean "Harshed white people's buzz by championing a modicum of farking human decency and sensitivity". I'm SO SORRY that there are people out there who will call out your racist ass when you drop the N-word. Your life is SO HARD because of racism.
 
2012-12-06 09:01:00 PM

mekki: Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?

Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.


this

farm3.static.flickr.com 

I grew up in "The Old South", where schools weren't completely integrated until the late 1970's and we had colored only drinking fountains and the like.
Pickaninny and Darkie , and to a lesser extent Blackamoor, art was born out of ignorance and not really spiteful. Nevertheless it is racist. Blackamoor art on the other hand I believe was more meant to be complimentary , though naive, depiction.
I think that these images and artifacts should be seen as just that, artifacts of a past time.
Meh, too deep for Fark, but yeah.
 
2012-12-07 12:40:18 AM
i1083.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-07 01:31:41 AM
Hate to break it to you folks, but there is no Santa Claus.
 
2012-12-07 02:04:40 AM

Witchydiva: willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.

This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.


Heh, in the UK we all get to be racist about English, Irish, Scots and Welsh.

(English living in Wales, so here I get to be the hated outsider)
 
2012-12-07 04:15:15 AM

kingoomieiii: Biv: A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton?

The anti-racism activist is the REAL racist? Well look who's a walking cliche.

I assume that by "Damaged race relations" you mean "Harshed white people's buzz by championing a modicum of farking human decency and sensitivity". I'm SO SORRY that there are people out there who will call out your racist ass when you drop the N-word. Your life is SO HARD because of racism.


How can you use the phrase "human decency" and Al Sharpton in the same sentence?

Honest question, were you alive in he 80's? Sharpton is an unredemable piece of shiat. Just ask Steve Pagones.
 
2012-12-07 06:01:24 AM

Witchydiva: If you don't go after the easy symbols, they become a symbol of something far more insidious: tolerance and even acceptance of bigotry.


Well, stop tolerating and accepting bigotry, then, and the easy symbols will have nothing to symbolise. Otherwise you end up with the situation where black make up is utterly unacceptable but the number of young black men in prison is just a fact of life.
 
2012-12-07 06:02:31 AM

ruta: Every society has its power structure for divvying folks up, even wherever you're from, I'll safely wager. [Looks at profile]. Farking Scotland?! Ha!


Yup, Scotland. Not a country in a position to lecture anyone else on religious tolerance.
 
2012-12-07 08:08:23 AM
Threads dead but I wanted to add I spent the day asking everyone I met about their feelings on the Santa issue. Every single individual said they don't give a shiat and whiners need to grow up. So there's that I guess.
 
2012-12-07 10:07:50 AM
kingoomieiii Smartest
Funniest
2012-12-06 08:07:57 PM


Biv: A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton?

The anti-racism activist is the REAL racist? Well look who's a walking cliche.

I assume that by "Damaged race relations" you mean "Harshed white people's buzz by championing a modicum of farking human decency and sensitivity". I'm SO SORRY that there are people out there who will call out your racist ass when you drop the N-word. Your life is SO HARD because of racism.



Funniest thing I've read this week.
gracias, amigo
 
2012-12-07 10:26:17 AM

Canned Tamales: Witchydiva: willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.

This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.

Actually, the part about "give me back my grandfather's bike!" is hilarious.

I don't mean to sound callous, but based on your posts in this thread, I'd be willing to bet that whatever country you are in, they are damn glad when you leave.

/just kidding. I don't really care if that sounded callous.


I don't get the joke... give me back my grandpa's bike? What does that have to do with Germany?
 
2012-12-07 11:35:02 AM

shortymac: Canned Tamales: Witchydiva: willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.

This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.

Actually, the part about "give me back my grandfather's bike!" is hilarious.

I don't mean to sound callous, but based on your posts in this thread, I'd be willing to bet that whatever country you are in, they are damn glad when you leave.

/just kidding. I don't really care if that sounded callous.

I don't get the joke... give me back my grandpa's bike? What does that have to do with Germany?


During WWII the Germans rolled into Holland with tanks and took away everyone's bicycle. (Plus a whole bunch of other shiat) So today the Dutch ask the Germans to return them.

It's a bit more envolved than that but there's the gist.
 
2012-12-07 12:36:43 PM
Just for sh*ts and grins, I give you Zwarte Pieten Stijl - Nederlandse Gangnam Style
 
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