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(Reuters)   Is it racist that Santa Claus has a black servant? Is it racist to portray him in black face? Is it, okay, yes, just, yes it's racist, okay? It's racist   (reuters.com) divider line 223
    More: Obvious, crowd watching, St. Nicholas, freedom of expression, toy stores, racists, Suriname  
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7196 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Dec 2012 at 8:55 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-06 06:04:24 PM  

T.M.S.: Witchydiva:
My Dutch isn't that great......snip

Then why did you send me to a Dutch site telling me it was a source to learn about your friends if even you don't understand it?

And why did you tell the folks in the bar you were part German if they made you feel so uncomfortable?

You really don't seem to like the Dutch people much and have no problem lumping the entire nation into one bag of perceived "assholness".

It all seems odd to me.


I read it better than I speak, so i do understand what is on that page. I thought that since you live here and had said you'd never met anyone who thought this was racist, that you were Dutch.

I didn't. A friend I was with did, because they thought it would be funny. Give me a little bit of credit.

I like some Dutch folks just fine, just apparently not the general population. Too bad we can't trade our experiences for a day.
 
2012-12-06 06:08:15 PM  

ruta: There aren't personality rights for specific cultures, of course, but similar lines of respect ought to exist.


That is a very American view of race; as complicated and illogical to outsiders as the British class system. The idea that "culture" can somehow be inherited along with skin colour is just bizarre to the rest of us.
 
2012-12-06 06:10:43 PM  

shortymac: It was a legend that in the historical record was always mentioned as something "those other people do" with no evidence that anyone ever practiced it.


Much like (non-ritual) cannibalism, which has always been something that those bastards in the next valley along do.
 
2012-12-06 06:11:57 PM  

orbister: And no, I don't think you are well qualified to judge what is racist in other cultures. You come from a country where universities ask applicants to state their race, and make admission decisions based on that. Bit these things are utterly unheard-of and completely illegal throughout Europe.


By this logic, no Dutch person, coming from a country that invented Apartheid and in which Geert Wilders had such popularity, could be well qualified to speak on racism. And, European universities may not ask for race on applications, but the head shots required on many CVs throughout Europe do plenty of damage on their own.

So perhaps you could deal with the pervasive racism of your entire society, and not just a few easy symbols of it, before lecturing the rest of the world, eh?

If you don't go after the easy symbols, they become a symbol of something far more insidious: tolerance and even acceptance of bigotry.
 
2012-12-06 07:00:47 PM  

orbister: ruta: There aren't personality rights for specific cultures, of course, but similar lines of respect ought to exist.

That is a very American view of race; as complicated and illogical to outsiders as the British class system. The idea that "culture" can somehow be inherited along with skin colour is just bizarre to the rest of us.


I used the word "culture" because it's more meaningful than "race", which is a cultural construct. I could have used the word "ethnicity" I guess. What magical, non-discriminating-on-the-basis-of-anything-but-skin-colour would "the rest of us" live in? Certainly not any place with tribal or religious differences. Every society has its power structure for divvying folks up, even wherever you're from, I'll safely wager. [Looks at profile]. Farking Scotland?! Ha!

/not American.
 
2012-12-06 07:18:52 PM  

Witchydiva: By this logic, no Dutch person, coming from a country that invented Apartheid and in which Geert Wilders had such popularity, could be well qualified to speak on racism. And, European universities may not ask for race on applications, but the head shots required on many CVs throughout Europe do plenty of damage on their own..


Apartheid you say? You mean literally translated to "segregation"? The Dutch invented that? Because it's not like you had any segregation snafus in the good ole US of A, right?
And I believe Geert had a major crash in popularity, this years vote, because people figured out he was full of hot air. But at least you never had any problems with popularism extreme right politicians in the States.

About those passport pictures, not head-shots, they require on CVs, don't necessarily affect "people of color'. Very few companies require them, it's mostly companies who rely on their employees appearance, and they mostly looooooove diversity. They love their company represent a Benetton ad. It's usually the fat n ugly who get the shaft (heh) with those companies. But who would want to work there, unless you're shallow.

About them Dutch children misbehaving, it's all about perspective, and experience. I've been a nanny in the States for several years, so from my perspective, there's no spoiled brat, like an American one. Them people let their kids get away with murder, from my perspective. At least in Holland you're still allowed to give the 'corrective spank', without Child Services taking away your kid.

What a Benetton ad may look like
2.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-06 07:29:36 PM  

La Fee Verte:

Apartheid you say? You mean literally translated to "segregation"? The Dutch invented that? Because it's not like you had any segregation snafus in the good ole US of A, right?
And I believe Geert had a major crash in popularity, this years vote, because people figured out he was full of hot air. But at least you never had any problems with popularism extreme right politicians in the States.


I never said we didn't have problems. I was pointing out faulty logic by the original posted. But go ahead and take my words completely out of context, and out of the spirit in which they were meant.

About those passport pictures, not head-shots, they require on CVs, don't necessarily affect "people of color'. Very few companies require them, it's mostly companies who rely on their employees appearance, and they mostly looooooove diversity. They love their company represent a Benetton ad. It's usually the fat n ugly who get the shaft (heh) with those companies. But who would want to work there, unless you're shallow.

Again, the original post referred to all of Europe.i know that some countries and industries use them more than others. however, if you think colored and old folks aren't getting shafted regularly, then I don't know what to make of the many conversation I've had with people in CH, NL, FR, and the UK - with people from all over the world.
 
2012-12-06 07:39:22 PM  

La Fee Verte: About them Dutch children misbehaving, it's all about perspective, and experience. I've been a nanny in the States for several years, so from my perspective, there's no spoiled brat, like an American one. Them people let their kids get away with murder, from my perspective. At least in Holland you're still allowed to give the 'corrective spank', without Child Services taking away your kid.


Odd, I thought I replied to this in the other post. Sorry.

It'd be interesting to compare American kids raised by nannies vs Dutch kids raised by nannies. I suspect there aren't that many differences. Regarding the corrective spank - apparently only if your neighbors or other parents never hear about it. My cousin spanked his daughter, and is still dealing with the authorities that another parent called on him. The parent who called? Their kid was/is part of a 5-student gang of bullies two years older than my cousin's daughter, who like to take turns cornering her and shoving her around. Im sure it has nothing to do with the fact that she is the only kid with black hair in her class. She's come home with bruises, but nobody will do anything, since you're supposed to let children do what they want.

Not so sure about how different thing are in that respect. I know plenty of American parents who swat their kids when they earn it, without thinking that CPS is going to remove the child from that house.
 
2012-12-06 07:49:36 PM  

mhd: Prank Call of Cthulhu: It's still OK to portray Krampus, though.

Who could possibly object?

[i.imgur.com image 454x700]


Krampus rules.
 
2012-12-06 07:58:25 PM  

Witchydiva: T.M.S.: Witchydiva:
My Dutch isn't that great......snip

Then why did you send me to a Dutch site telling me it was a source to learn about your friends if even you don't understand it?

And why did you tell the folks in the bar you were part German if they made you feel so uncomfortable?

You really don't seem to like the Dutch people much and have no problem lumping the entire nation into one bag of perceived "assholness".

It all seems odd to me.

I read it better than I speak, so i do understand what is on that page. I thought that since you live here and had said you'd never met anyone who thought this was racist, that you were Dutch.

I didn't. A friend I was with did, because they thought it would be funny. Give me a little bit of credit.

I like some Dutch folks just fine, just apparently not the general population. Too bad we can't trade our experiences for a day.


Nope. I'm an American. I live in NY and commute to Holland a couple times a month.

I don't notice much of a difference between my kids and my friends here. They are all pretty mellow. Just lucky I guess.
 
2012-12-06 08:07:57 PM  

Biv: A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton?


The anti-racism activist is the REAL racist? Well look who's a walking cliche.

I assume that by "Damaged race relations" you mean "Harshed white people's buzz by championing a modicum of farking human decency and sensitivity". I'm SO SORRY that there are people out there who will call out your racist ass when you drop the N-word. Your life is SO HARD because of racism.
 
2012-12-06 09:01:00 PM  

mekki: Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?

Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.


this

farm3.static.flickr.com 

I grew up in "The Old South", where schools weren't completely integrated until the late 1970's and we had colored only drinking fountains and the like.
Pickaninny and Darkie , and to a lesser extent Blackamoor, art was born out of ignorance and not really spiteful. Nevertheless it is racist. Blackamoor art on the other hand I believe was more meant to be complimentary , though naive, depiction.
I think that these images and artifacts should be seen as just that, artifacts of a past time.
Meh, too deep for Fark, but yeah.
 
2012-12-07 12:40:18 AM  
i1083.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-07 01:31:41 AM  
Hate to break it to you folks, but there is no Santa Claus.
 
2012-12-07 02:04:40 AM  

Witchydiva: willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.

This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.


Heh, in the UK we all get to be racist about English, Irish, Scots and Welsh.

(English living in Wales, so here I get to be the hated outsider)
 
2012-12-07 04:15:15 AM  

kingoomieiii: Biv: A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton?

The anti-racism activist is the REAL racist? Well look who's a walking cliche.

I assume that by "Damaged race relations" you mean "Harshed white people's buzz by championing a modicum of farking human decency and sensitivity". I'm SO SORRY that there are people out there who will call out your racist ass when you drop the N-word. Your life is SO HARD because of racism.


How can you use the phrase "human decency" and Al Sharpton in the same sentence?

Honest question, were you alive in he 80's? Sharpton is an unredemable piece of shiat. Just ask Steve Pagones.
 
2012-12-07 06:01:24 AM  

Witchydiva: If you don't go after the easy symbols, they become a symbol of something far more insidious: tolerance and even acceptance of bigotry.


Well, stop tolerating and accepting bigotry, then, and the easy symbols will have nothing to symbolise. Otherwise you end up with the situation where black make up is utterly unacceptable but the number of young black men in prison is just a fact of life.
 
2012-12-07 06:02:31 AM  

ruta: Every society has its power structure for divvying folks up, even wherever you're from, I'll safely wager. [Looks at profile]. Farking Scotland?! Ha!


Yup, Scotland. Not a country in a position to lecture anyone else on religious tolerance.
 
2012-12-07 08:08:23 AM  
Threads dead but I wanted to add I spent the day asking everyone I met about their feelings on the Santa issue. Every single individual said they don't give a shiat and whiners need to grow up. So there's that I guess.
 
2012-12-07 10:07:50 AM  
kingoomieiii Smartest
Funniest
2012-12-06 08:07:57 PM


Biv: A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton?

The anti-racism activist is the REAL racist? Well look who's a walking cliche.

I assume that by "Damaged race relations" you mean "Harshed white people's buzz by championing a modicum of farking human decency and sensitivity". I'm SO SORRY that there are people out there who will call out your racist ass when you drop the N-word. Your life is SO HARD because of racism.



Funniest thing I've read this week.
gracias, amigo
 
2012-12-07 10:26:17 AM  

Canned Tamales: Witchydiva: willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.

This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.

Actually, the part about "give me back my grandfather's bike!" is hilarious.

I don't mean to sound callous, but based on your posts in this thread, I'd be willing to bet that whatever country you are in, they are damn glad when you leave.

/just kidding. I don't really care if that sounded callous.


I don't get the joke... give me back my grandpa's bike? What does that have to do with Germany?
 
2012-12-07 11:35:02 AM  

shortymac: Canned Tamales: Witchydiva: willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.

This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.

Actually, the part about "give me back my grandfather's bike!" is hilarious.

I don't mean to sound callous, but based on your posts in this thread, I'd be willing to bet that whatever country you are in, they are damn glad when you leave.

/just kidding. I don't really care if that sounded callous.

I don't get the joke... give me back my grandpa's bike? What does that have to do with Germany?


During WWII the Germans rolled into Holland with tanks and took away everyone's bicycle. (Plus a whole bunch of other shiat) So today the Dutch ask the Germans to return them.

It's a bit more envolved than that but there's the gist.
 
2012-12-07 12:36:43 PM  
Just for sh*ts and grins, I give you Zwarte Pieten Stijl - Nederlandse Gangnam Style
 
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