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(Reuters)   Is it racist that Santa Claus has a black servant? Is it racist to portray him in black face? Is it, okay, yes, just, yes it's racist, okay? It's racist   (reuters.com) divider line 223
    More: Obvious, crowd watching, St. Nicholas, freedom of expression, toy stores, racists, Suriname  
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7188 clicks; posted to Main » on 06 Dec 2012 at 8:55 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-06 12:08:44 PM

Biv:

You want to go after a real race problem? A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton? That ass has done more to destroy race relations in this country than thousands of KKK members ever could. If "the n word" is so offensive to you, maybe you should take a good hard look at the people who told you that you should be offended by it.


Holy shiat that is just so goddamn wrong and so incredibly ignorant of the history of race in this country that I cannot even begin to fathom where to start. So instead I will post this slightly off-topic but slightly on-topic cartoon:

3.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-06 12:08:51 PM

Biv: Rincewind53: Biv:
I have, and he agrees. What else you got?

It's a word. A combination of vowels and consonants. It has no more power than any other word. If it did, it wouldn't be flung around so casually in the black community.

The only difference between a black guy using it and a white guy using it is whether or not you choose to be offended by it when it's used.

Okay Mr. Spock, when you're done rationally rejecting all the offensive things in the word through the power of your "It's just a word" argument, I'd like your advice on eliminating all racism in America, since it's all in people's heads and we just need to get them to be rational and choose not to be racist.

It'll never happen. A segment of the population will always be prejudice in one way or another. It's always been that way and it's not going to change.

But guess what? Most white people are not racist, even the ones who dress in blackface. We have an unhealthy obsession with words and the possibility of offending people. Which is just stupid and childish. No word is offensive unless you saddle it with an emotional reaction which is entirely personal.

You want to go after a real race problem? A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton? That ass has done more to destroy race relations in this country than thousands of KKK members ever could. If "the n word" is so offensive to you, maybe you should take a good hard look at the people who told you that you should be offended by it.


You could have summed up that entire post by just saying, "I know nothing about history and I don't care to know. Nor do I care about other people."

/The extra words weren't needed
 
Biv
2012-12-06 12:11:03 PM

Rincewind53: Biv:

You want to go after a real race problem? A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton? That ass has done more to destroy race relations in this country than thousands of KKK members ever could. If "the n word" is so offensive to you, maybe you should take a good hard look at the people who told you that you should be offended by it.

Holy shiat that is just so goddamn wrong and so incredibly ignorant of the history of race in this country that I cannot even begin to fathom where to start. So instead I will post this slightly off-topic but slightly on-topic cartoon:

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x529]


You really don't think Sharpton is a racist? Then you are a lost cause.
 
2012-12-06 12:12:41 PM

HotWingConspiracy: Gonz: Hell, I'd go one step farther. Imagine a guy on the streets today wearing a red velvet coat with fur trim, and a jaunty hat.

Did I just describe Santa? Or a pimp?

Does he have a beard? Pimps are generally well groomed.


t1.gstatic.com

Also
i1197.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-06 12:13:59 PM

Biv: You really don't think Sharpton is a racist? Then you are a lost cause.


You're seriously like those Christians who scream about how incredibly insensitive and bigoted atheists are because they dare fight back. Also, your statement was that Al Sharpton had not only done more to destroy race relations in America than thousands of KKK members, and also implied that it was only black people that told me that the n word was offensive. You don't get to move your goalposts back and claim all you said was "Al Sharpton is a racist."
 
2012-12-06 12:19:23 PM

HotWingConspiracy: "But it's tradition!"

I'm sensing a huge business opportunity in exporting "Heritage, not Hate" swag over there.


What? Is "Heritage, not Hate" a thing?

Does it mean what I suspect it means? Is what people say when they display a swastika or a confederate battle flag and then says "I'm not racist because I'm hateful! I'm only racist because my daddy was racist!"

I really hope that's not what it is, because that's about stupid enough to cross into the Poe's Law territory.
 
2012-12-06 12:23:17 PM

Rincewind53: Thallone1: So let me get this straight. If I, a white person, were to become incredibly famous to the point that people a thousand years later are throwing parades in my honor, it would be racist for them to depict my assistant if he happened to be black? And now is it not more racist (or at least insensitive) to not acknowledge that Peter was black? Should Peter be depicted as white? Asian? Tell me how Peter should be depicted if not as black.

Now, to have a white dude in blackface? Offensive as all fark. But still not racist, because you're attempting to accurately depict a scene of a white dude and a black dude. Much better of course simply to *find* a black dude to play Peter.

The tradition is 150 years old. Not thousands of years old.


Sorry. I guess that makes it worse somehow to depict things as they occurred rather than by today's standards.
 
2012-12-06 12:23:29 PM

Witchydiva: mekki: McManus_brothers: But, but, they're Europeans! And we know they're never racist! So it's cool!

The funny thing is, I've heard from many Europeans that they are offended by this. Not in the usual way you would think so. That is, Black Pete being a racist caricature. But that the ones who are complaining about Black Pete the most are Americans. And how dare Americans be fascist bullies and think what they find offensive should be standard to what everyone finds offensive. That in their non-American culture, they doesn't have a history of blackface or at least blackface that is found offensive by the public, so therefore they should be able to do it and NO ONE should complain.

Very much this.

If you get offended by Zwarte Piet, it is because of your own country's racist history and your thin skin. People literally get violent over it! It has nothing to do with the fact that nationally celebrating a holiday by dressing up and acting as a racial stereotype is offensive.

And anyone who thinks the Dutch don't have a history of racism even longer and more brutal than America is ignorant or fooling themselves.


lichnosti.net
Those Muthafarkers!
 
2012-12-06 12:23:53 PM

Biv: No word is offensive unless you saddle it with an emotional reaction which is entirely personal.


You sound autistic.

Or trolloly.

Whatever.
 
2012-12-06 12:26:36 PM

Witchydiva: PandaPorn: I don't know what part of the country you live in, but I have lived all my life all over the country and have never encountered something even resembling what you describe. The disease thing I couldn't care less about as every culture has its own swear words, and I personally don't see swear words as immature. As for the children being badly raised is a matter of perception in my opinion. We tend to draw that criticism from the belgians as well, but that's usually because they are used to raise kids in a different, stricter way, not because of any fundamental differences in the end result.

And I also think it's ironic that you stereotype an entire culture (the dutch) while speaking out against discrimination. You have to admit it's a bit hypocritical.

I'm in Den Haag, work in Rotterdam. I frankly don't have time to write a post detailing every horrid experience, so I'll simply say that you are lucky to not have experienced it yourself. I hear that from a lot of people here, funny enough. Maybe I'm just having a shiatty, unique, racism-and-inconsideration-filled experience. I'm not being snarky, could be true.


The Dutch are well known assholes. This is not a racial thing. They are very fair and can be very kind, generous and loving people, but to a man, woman and child, they have shiat for manners. I look like Thor on a good hair day and they are just as rude to me as anyone else. They have an inborn irritation with migrants, because of Moroccans and Algerians, who are universally a horrible, criminal people and frankly abuse the Dutch social systems Dutch society and shiat all over the place(not metaphorically, I have seen Moroccans shiatting in public in A'dam) and engage in bad behavior, but its not just you.

Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.
 
2012-12-06 12:29:16 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: mekki: Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?

Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.

No malice behind portraying black women as fat, uneducated, house-dress wearing, simpletons? Thats news.


encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com
 
2012-12-06 12:31:34 PM
Everything is racist
 
2012-12-06 12:32:33 PM
This discussion parallels the discussion of European-descended people co-opting Indian/First Nation/Aboriginal regalia for their Halloween costumes and sports teams insignia. The potential for offense is when a dominant culture colonizes not only the oppressed culture's homeland, but their very appearance too, without their permission. Imagine if someone created a character in a film, or for a marketing purpose, that was based on you personally without your permission. It doesn't matter if it's a positively portrayal (though the character is kind of hideous to look at--what black person ever had ruby red lips?), they didn't ask you if it was okay. Those are personality rights, which in the U.S. and many other countries, are protected by statute. There aren't personality rights for specific cultures, of course, but similar lines of respect ought to exist. However, those lines are often difficult to see for the culture doing the taking, because historically they were ignored because it was a demonstration of power, or because it was "for a good reason". Just look at all of the "but it's being done without malice!" defenses in this thread. The nature of the intention doesn't matter. Who has the intent, and who grants permission and respects that permission (or lack thereof) is what matters. The argument that Saint Nicholas converted Muslims so that somehow makes it okay also doesn't fly either. Religious conversion is just another kind of colonization. Imagine if the character was Christian Jew Piet and folks portraying him dressed up in 19th century Hasidic garb ("it's historic!") with comically over-sized rubber noses.
 
2012-12-06 12:39:05 PM
Seems idiotic to whine about this now.
but hey
the culture of victimhood never sleeps
someone will always be offended
and it will need a protector

so what's the next thing that must be stopped?
C'mon C'mon..gimme something!!!
 
2012-12-06 12:42:04 PM
How about portraying him more as the tamed devil he originally was? Get a bald white man, paint him ALL BLACK (no red lips no fro) and have him dance about? Therefore we go back 100 years, erasing the Dutch Colonial period?
Would that be acceptable to all?

(and it'd have to be black, because santa's already red.
 
2012-12-06 12:42:06 PM

Biv: Rincewind53: Biv:

You want to go after a real race problem? A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton? That ass has done more to destroy race relations in this country than thousands of KKK members ever could. If "the n word" is so offensive to you, maybe you should take a good hard look at the people who told you that you should be offended by it.

Holy shiat that is just so goddamn wrong and so incredibly ignorant of the history of race in this country that I cannot even begin to fathom where to start. So instead I will post this slightly off-topic but slightly on-topic cartoon:

[3.bp.blogspot.com image 400x529]

You really don't think Sharpton is a racist? Then you are a lost cause.


I have never meet Sharpton so it's impossible for me to know if he is a racist. But he is certainly a disgusting excuse for a human being and shameful opportunist willing to exploit sensitive racial issues for personal gain.

Actually, yeah. He is a racist. And a gigantic douchebag.
 
2012-12-06 12:46:52 PM

Happy Hours: DROxINxTHExWIND: mekki: Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?

Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.

No malice behind portraying black women as fat, uneducated, house-dress wearing, simpletons? Thats news.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 208x242]


What is that, a stock photo of a nurse? Did she also mispronounce her wors and speak in boken English? Oh now I get it. There was sexism in the past, so Mammy isn't racist. *Smacks forehead* Makes sense.
 
2012-12-06 12:58:46 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: Happy Hours: DROxINxTHExWIND: mekki: Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?

Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.

No malice behind portraying black women as fat, uneducated, house-dress wearing, simpletons? Thats news.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 208x242]

What is that, a stock photo of a nurse? Did she also mispronounce her wors and speak in boken English? Oh now I get it. There was sexism in the past, so Mammy isn't racist. *Smacks forehead* Makes sense.


Uh, no - not a nurse. Just a fat, uneducated, uniform, wearing, simpleton live-in maid.

encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com
 
2012-12-06 01:11:32 PM

Biv: You want to go after a real race problem? A real racist? Why don't you start with Al Sharpton? That ass has done more to destroy race relations in this country than thousands of KKK members ever could. If "the n word" is so offensive to you, maybe you should take a good hard look at the people who told you that you should be offended by it.


It took you a really long time to get to "NUH UH, RACISTS AREN'T RACISTS, BLACK PEOPLE ARE".

That's boilerplate around here, more of a jumping off point.
 
2012-12-06 01:13:48 PM

ThePastafarian: Witchydiva: eldezod: sodomizer: We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.

You've convinced me. RAAAAACCEEE WAAAAAARRRR!

FREEEEEE BIIIIIIIIRD!

AAASSS YOOUUUU WIIIIIIISSHHHH


KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

/what?
 
2012-12-06 01:18:31 PM
Why not just do what the pubs do and make the guy blue? Instead of Santa having an alien helper with black skin (because let's face it, there is no living human that looks like someone in blackface, so I'm going to assume anyone in blackface is supposed to be an alien from Mars or something), it's an alien helper with blue skin. Or green. Hell, go crazy with it.

You can actually update traditions without destroying them. You just have to be intelligent about it.
 
2012-12-06 01:18:37 PM

The Larch: HotWingConspiracy: "But it's tradition!"

I'm sensing a huge business opportunity in exporting "Heritage, not Hate" swag over there.

What? Is "Heritage, not Hate" a thing?

Does it mean what I suspect it means? Is what people say when they display a swastika or a confederate battle flag and then says "I'm not racist because I'm hateful! I'm only racist because my daddy was racist!"

I really hope that's not what it is, because that's about stupid enough to cross into the Poe's Law territory.


You pretty much nailed it, and it's definitely a thing. They've got bumper stickers and shiat.
 
2012-12-06 01:25:04 PM

SweetDickens: "Aunt Jemima makes good syrup, 'bout the best that anyone can, whether regular or buttered its the best brand in the land"

Yep, don't see it.......


That's the "Log Cabin" jingle.
 
2012-12-06 01:50:36 PM

impaler: hdhale: Social engineering experiments, such as mandatory school busing and massive housing projects, were total failures in America

What about school desegregation?


Depends upon the level of education you are talking about. If you are talking about higher education, that process was already well underway before the 1960s. When Mississippi Governor Ross R. Barnett made his famous proclamation in 1962, it was met with outrage in the vast majority of the country, not support.

Busing was intended to promote school desegregation at the K-12 level. Instead, whites moved out at an increasing rate from urban areas where busing was taking place, and city schools, neighborhoods and businesses suffered. In the area where I grew up, whole massive suburbs consisting of almost entirely residential neighborhoods grew and rejected incorporation into the larger city core, instead incorporating into independent cities of their own. It was only decades later that minorities started moving into these suburbs and real integration started to take place.
 
2012-12-06 01:58:03 PM
satwcomic.com

( http://satwcomic.com/black-pete )
 
2012-12-06 02:10:28 PM

orbister: Witchydiva: Regarding the "but... it is TRADITION" bullsh*t" - so was slavery, so were women as chattel, so was Prima Nocta/ droit du seigneur, and a whole lot of other things that modern society finally saw as inappropriate relics from a bygone era.

Ius Prima Nocta was invented for Braveheart. It never existed, but gives a lot of ignorant people a chance to feel outraged.


It was a legend that in the historical record was always mentioned as something "those other people do" with no evidence that anyone ever practiced it.

I think it's an ancient way of calling someone's Mom a whore.
 
2012-12-06 02:12:19 PM

Happy Hours: DROxINxTHExWIND: Happy Hours: DROxINxTHExWIND: mekki: Brass_Robo: To be fair to the Dutch, the historic Saint Nicholas really did have a lot of Moorish converts. Does it really count as racism if there is no malice behind it?

Yes, it is. Just like the Mammy character is racist even though there is traditionally no malice behind it.

No malice behind portraying black women as fat, uneducated, house-dress wearing, simpletons? Thats news.

[encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com image 208x242]

What is that, a stock photo of a nurse? Did she also mispronounce her wors and speak in boken English? Oh now I get it. There was sexism in the past, so Mammy isn't racist. *Smacks forehead* Makes sense.

Uh, no - not a nurse. Just a fat, uneducated, uniform, wearing, simpleton live-in maid.

[encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com image 329x153]


Is the crux of your argument that since there was once a fat, uneducated, uniform wearing, white woman on TV so there was(is) no malice in the Mammy stereotype?
 
2012-12-06 02:20:04 PM

PsiChick: Why not just do what the pubs do and make the guy blue? Instead of Santa having an alien helper with black skin (because let's face it, there is no living human that looks like someone in blackface, so I'm going to assume anyone in blackface is supposed to be an alien from Mars or something), it's an alien helper with blue skin. Or green. Hell, go crazy with it.

You can actually update traditions without destroying them. You just have to be intelligent about it.


That's probably the best way to go about it. If they want to stick with the whole "he's black because he's covered in soot" make it actually look like that and get rid of the big red lips and the afro. Use a mix of brown, black and grey for face paint.
 
2012-12-06 02:32:50 PM

hdhale: Depends upon the level of education you are talking about. If you are talking about higher education, that process was already well underway before the 1960s. When Mississippi Governor Ross R. Barnett made his famous proclamation in 1962, it was met with outrage in the vast majority of the country, not support.


How did it play in the south? Was desegregation "well underway" there?
 
2012-12-06 02:40:48 PM

cherryl taggart: HotWingConspiracy: Public Savant: No, YOU go read up on the history of thanksgiving and put a stop to that celebration of what is basically the beginning of an atrocity, before you go pointing fingers at the culture and customs of other countries.

We generally don't have brown faced imps dancing about on Thanksgiving. Generally.

As long as you don't have the NFL on the screen


Cleveland didn't play on Thanksgiving day.
 
2012-12-06 02:44:52 PM

wellreadneck: Rincewind53: T.M.S.: I also don't know anyone offended by that word. But I do hang out with unusual characters.

Fair. Showbiz characters tend to be more permissive. But I guarantee if you drop some of your black acquaintances in the South and some redneck comes up and calls him the n word and tells him to get the hell out, he'd be offended.

Bigot.


I have him/her/it farkied as a Hipster Douche, but this works too!
 
2012-12-06 03:25:15 PM

shortymac: PsiChick: Why not just do what the pubs do and make the guy blue? Instead of Santa having an alien helper with black skin (because let's face it, there is no living human that looks like someone in blackface, so I'm going to assume anyone in blackface is supposed to be an alien from Mars or something), it's an alien helper with blue skin. Or green. Hell, go crazy with it.

You can actually update traditions without destroying them. You just have to be intelligent about it.

That's probably the best way to go about it. If they want to stick with the whole "he's black because he's covered in soot" make it actually look like that and get rid of the big red lips and the afro. Use a mix of brown, black and grey for face paint.


That would still raise the question of 'why the hell is Santa toting around a guy who can't figure out what a bathtub is', though. :p
 
2012-12-06 03:25:50 PM

ruta: what black person ever had ruby red lips?


Lynne Thigpen, RIP
 
2012-12-06 03:41:51 PM

lysdexic: ThePastafarian: Witchydiva: eldezod: sodomizer: We're different for a reason.

The great multicultural dream, like ending poverty and other liberal wet dreams, is an illusion and it doesn't work.

You've convinced me. RAAAAACCEEE WAAAAAARRRR!

FREEEEEE BIIIIIIIIRD!

AAASSS YOOUUUU WIIIIIIISSHHHH

KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!

/what?


DECEPTICONS, RETRRREEEAAATTT!!!
 
2012-12-06 03:51:32 PM

willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.


This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.
 
2012-12-06 03:56:47 PM

Iceberg659: Is the crux of your argument that since there was once a fat, uneducated, uniform wearing, white woman on TV so there was(is) no malice in the Mammy stereotype?


Are you saying there was malice in depicting any women that way?

There was malice? Really?

Yeah, it was all a part of a big conspiracy to keep the black man down. That's why the Evans family on Good Times were portrayed as poor too.
 
2012-12-06 04:04:26 PM

Witchydiva: willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.

This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.



See, what did I tell you? I think being a prick is the Dutch national hobby.
 
2012-12-06 04:24:13 PM
I guess we should just be happy that the Dutch (those snooty, racist twits) don't call Santa's helper "N♠gger Pete".

I currently live in a predominantly Dutch, Catholic city in America. The Dutch here are not the most open-minded, tolerant people in the world, I can tell you. If you're not one of them, you're an outsider ("If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much.") and if you're a minority, you're not very welcome unless they're trying to bolster their image through charity. They will send money to feed brown people (in the name of Jesus) halfway around the world, but they wouldn't give a wooden nickel for a low-income Black family in their own city.

They have this air of false generosity that stinks of religious narcissism. Oh, how I dislike dealing with them during an election year... They have this way of saying things that sound like pleasantries, but are really meant to put you in your place if you're not a member of their social class.

As Nigel Powers said, there are only two things I hate in this world: People who are intolerant of other people's cultures, and the Dutch.

/I'm kidding. I don't hate the Dutch.
//I just hate living around them and being treated like dog poo by snooty Dutch people. I'm indifferent to them, otherwise.
///I realize that the ones here in America are the ones who were so religiously intolerant that they were kicked out of their homeland.
 
2012-12-06 04:45:10 PM

Witchydiva: willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.

This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.


I'm surprised considering you speak Dutch. Most people tend to be responsive to folks that speak their own language.
 
2012-12-06 04:49:22 PM
We need to do everything we can to accomodate the insecurities of others.
 
2012-12-06 04:52:30 PM

T.M.S.:
I'm surprised considering you speak Dutch. Most people tend to be responsive to folks that speak their own language.


My Dutch isn't that great. I can understand about half of what is said, but it is tough to reply, still. My German and French are MUCh better. Tough to learn a language when everyone switches to English immediate when they hear my accent. :/
 
2012-12-06 05:15:31 PM

Witchydiva: willfullyobscure: Another thing to say is that racism doesn't have the same deep cultural wound it does in America, where it is our great original sin; the Europeans have been racially discrimating against each other for millenia, an African or an SEAsian is visibly more different but otherwise equally as prejudged as a German, Belgian, Spaniard, Englishman or whatever. They make chinky eyes at you- they make farting noises and sig heil at the Germans. So be of good cheer.

This part of your post was especially hilarious to me because I hold a German passport, too. American AND German? Let me tell you how much fun it was to watch the Eurocup at bars, and see people throwing the sieg heil salute around... I was confused about being told to give back someone's grandfaher's bike, until someone explained it to me. Then it got fun.

The assholishness doesn't seem to let up for long around here.


Actually, the part about "give me back my grandfather's bike!" is hilarious.

I don't mean to sound callous, but based on your posts in this thread, I'd be willing to bet that whatever country you are in, they are damn glad when you leave.

/just kidding. I don't really care if that sounded callous.
 
2012-12-06 05:16:21 PM

Witchydiva: T.M.S.:
I'm surprised considering you speak Dutch. Most people tend to be responsive to folks that speak their own language.

My Dutch isn't that great. I can understand about half of what is said, but it is tough to reply, still. My German and French are MUCh better. Tough to learn a language when everyone switches to English immediate when they hear my accent. :/


Then why did you send me to a Dutch site telling me it was a source to learn about your friends if even you don't understand it?

And why did you tell the folks in the bar you were part German if they made you feel so uncomfortable?

You really don't seem to like the Dutch people much and have no problem lumping the entire nation into one bag of perceived "assholness".

It all seems odd to me.
 
2012-12-06 05:30:05 PM

T.M.S.: Witchydiva: T.M.S.:
I'm surprised considering you speak Dutch. Most people tend to be responsive to folks that speak their own language.

My Dutch isn't that great. I can understand about half of what is said, but it is tough to reply, still. My German and French are MUCh better. Tough to learn a language when everyone switches to English immediate when they hear my accent. :/

Then why did you send me to a Dutch site telling me it was a source to learn about your friends if even you don't understand it?

And why did you tell the folks in the bar you were part German if they made you feel so uncomfortable?

You really don't seem to like the Dutch people much and have no problem lumping the entire nation into one bag of perceived "assholness".

It all seems odd to me.


This seems to be more than mere one person's anecdote
 
2012-12-06 05:51:30 PM
Haven't had time to read all your comments yet. But as a Dutch person I do think it's offensive and outdated. Not only that, but if you want to internationally profile yourself as such an open and tolerant country, this character will not stand. It's not for nothing that you will not see any Zwarte Piet images at Schiphol International Airport. The Dutch know other people take offence.

Since the late 70s there have been groups trying to change the outdated colonialist image of Zwarte Piet, but they have been small.
Now with the internets the world has become smaller. Plus there are more and more small groups out there who would like to see change. Sadly they are not one large group, but I'm confident this will soon be outdated.

I'm part of a group called Zwarte Piet is Rasistisch (link goes to a facebook group, sowwy)
It was started by a black artist who wore a t-shirt with that text to a St. Nicolas parade last year, he got arrested. According to the police because he didn't have a protest permit, he later won in court and we are now allowed to wear that t-shirt.

Meanwhile Change.org would love to get your signature, to give to the Dutch minister of Education.

And for Dutch residents, you can file a discrimination complaint here
 
2012-12-06 05:53:50 PM

Rincewind53: Ah, the old "mote of dust" logical fallacy (tinged with a somewhat incorrect view of history; state laws against miscegenation were all ruled unconstitutional in 1967, so repealing them was symbolic only). Might I suggest that perhaps as an American I may have a slightly better view of what's racist because of our recent far-more-blatant racist past?


Symbolic, eh? I think the fact that Alabama had to try four times before they could get a majority in favour of repealing blatant and unconstitutional racism is pretty farkin' symbol.

And no, I don't think you are well qualified to judge what is racist in other cultures. You come from a country where universities ask applicants to state their race, and make admission decisions based on that. Bit these things are utterly unheard-of and completely illegal throughout Europe.

So perhaps you could deal with the pervasive racism of your entire society, and not just a few easy symbols of it, before lecturing the rest of the world, eh?
 
2012-12-06 05:55:40 PM

willfullyobscure: T.M.S.: Witchydiva: T.M.S.:
I'm surprised considering you speak Dutch. Most people tend to be responsive to folks that speak their own language.

My Dutch isn't that great. I can understand about half of what is said, but it is tough to reply, still. My German and French are MUCh better. Tough to learn a language when everyone switches to English immediate when they hear my accent. :/

Then why did you send me to a Dutch site telling me it was a source to learn about your friends if even you don't understand it?

And why did you tell the folks in the bar you were part German if they made you feel so uncomfortable?

You really don't seem to like the Dutch people much and have no problem lumping the entire nation into one bag of perceived "assholness".

It all seems odd to me.

This seems to be more than mere one person's anecdote


All very amusing. But I just don't see that type of behavior often. Well, really ever. Perhaps I just have been lucky all these years.

The shiat about the Germans and the Dutch is certainly founded in truth but most of my time here is working with both of them together and the ribbing is mostly good natured. Even the grandfathers bike bit is played for laughs.

I accept that it's possible me, my friends, employees, family and everyone I know are just lucky to be spared this obnoxious and borderline threatening behavior by the Dutch. But it's seems unlikely. I just don't see it. Ever.
 
2012-12-06 05:56:27 PM

DROxINxTHExWIND: When will people get over the whole, "if THAT'S offensive then THIS is offensive" stuff? Keep your eye on the ball. We're talking about Mammy.


So why do you, personally, generalise that image to all black women?
 
2012-12-06 05:56:36 PM

Happy Hours: Iceberg659: Is the crux of your argument that since there was once a fat, uneducated, uniform wearing, white woman on TV so there was(is) no malice in the Mammy stereotype?

Are you saying there was malice in depicting any women that way?

There was malice? Really?

Yeah, it was all a part of a big conspiracy to keep the black man down. That's why the Evans family on Good Times were portrayed as poor too.


Jesus. Conspiracy to keep the black man down?! Have fun with that straw man. There is no conspiracy. It's lazy writing and ignorance.

There is no malice in depicting someone as an overweight, uneducated "servant." Overweight, uneducated servants exist. The malice came in when a certain group of people was ONLY depicted as fat, uneducated servants. If you're a member of a particular group and the prevailing media representation of that group is a negative stereotype you're likely to take umbrage.
 
2012-12-06 06:02:58 PM

willfullyobscure: The Dutch are well known assholes. This is not a racial thing. They are very fair and can be very kind, generous and loving people, but to a man, woman and child, they have shiat for manners.


My experience of Dutch people has been that 90% are delightful and 10% are arrogant bastards. Oddly enough, hardly any in between those extremes. I like visiting the Netherland, though, which I have always found to be a polite, clean and easy-going country.

I suspect though, that like most of Europe, they are not terribly fond of entitled American shout-louder-honey-they-all-talk-goddam-english tourists, especially those who see the country as their personal drug dealer. This may explain some of the experiences reported here.
 
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