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(Fox News)   The latest atheist outrage? People watching "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown"   (radio.foxnews.com) divider line 253
    More: Stupid, Charlie Brown, people watching, Christmas Is..., atheists  
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11751 clicks; posted to Main » on 05 Dec 2012 at 10:53 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-12-05 09:36:26 AM  
16 votes:
"Students at Terry Elementary School had been planning to attend a school-day field trip to watch a stage version of the holiday classic - hosted by the church. The event was strictly voluntary and teachers sent home letters explaining the purpose of the trip."

Substitute "church" with "mosque" and regardless of the content of the performance the outrage would have been from Fox's base.

Non-story, folks. Carving out a few hours from a public school day to take kids to a church to watch a story about how Linus and Charlie Brown are touched by the birth of Christ is clearly over the line.
2012-12-05 09:50:12 AM  
15 votes:

minoridiot: Aren't field trips optional?


Doesn't matter. As soon as you put kids whose parents opted to have them put on a bus paid for by tax dollars, chaperone by teachers paid by tax dollars, and the kids are counted as present on a school day, and thus get federal funds, you are violating the first amendment.
2012-12-05 10:44:09 AM  
14 votes:
draftsauronpac.files.wordpress.com

/oblig
2012-12-05 09:54:47 AM  
14 votes:

Rincewind53: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

Because they don't like children going to see school-sponsored plays in churches about the birth of Jesus?


Maybe those people need to pull the sticks out of their asses and lighten up. I'm an atheist. We're never going to be a secular society, completely devoid of religious worship. People are going to believe. You can't do a damn thing about that. It's farking Charlie Brown. It's been a while since I've last seen it, but to my recollection, Jesus or the birth of Jesus is mentioned only once in the entire film.

If I had kids, and the school took them to see a play where at one point in the play, a Bible verse was recited, you know what I'd do? Nothing. That's what I'd do. "Oh no, my children were exposed to a point of view that differs from my own, whatever shall I do?" Children have to learn at some point there's different kinds of people in this world. I'd tell them that while I don't believe in God, lots of other people do, and that's just as okay. It's not going to hurt them. They aren't going to burst into flames and become charcoal briquettes.
2012-12-05 09:43:02 AM  
14 votes:
As much as I love Merry Christmas Charlie Brown (despite being an evil atheist), a public school should never be going even voluntarily to a performance hosted by a church/mosque/synagogue.
2012-12-05 09:39:17 AM  
13 votes:
......and this is why people hate atheists.
2012-12-05 09:41:04 AM  
12 votes:
Most atheists I know love Charlie Brown Christmas.
2012-12-05 09:33:01 AM  
10 votes:
encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

"And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid. And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord. And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger. And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying, Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace and goodwill towards men.

.And that's what Christmas is all about, Charlie Brown.
2012-12-05 09:37:14 AM  
9 votes:
The latest atheist outrage? People watching A public school taking children to church to watch a stage performance of "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown," which has a direct recitation from the bible in its seminal scene
2012-12-05 09:49:58 AM  
8 votes:
I watch the Charlie Brown Christmas show every year, and I'm one of those evil atheist types. The objection was that a school was taking a field trip to a church.
2012-12-05 10:52:59 AM  
7 votes:
I'm a teacher, and I'm an atheist. I keep my opinions about religion out of the classroom, because I have always felt that they really have no business there.

Am I doing it wrong? Should I be proselytizing in favor of atheism in my classroom? Would it be appropriate for me to take my students to a reading of Bertrand Russell's "Why I Am Not a Christian"? (Voluntarily, of course- the Christians in the class can sit in the classroom and do additional work.)

It never even occurred to me that this might be an appropriate use of class time and school money.
2012-12-05 09:45:42 AM  
7 votes:

Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.


Because they don't like children going to see school-sponsored plays in churches about the birth of Jesus?
2012-12-05 10:27:28 AM  
6 votes:

AbbeySomeone: t3knomanser: Coco LaFemme: You're kidding, right? THIS WAS VOLUNTARY. As in, not required.

And where was the voluntary activity for the Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc? Sure, the Christians get an optional event that they can enjoy, but nobody else gets an option? So one group gets to go have a day-long field trip to a church, to participate in a religious event, while everybody else sits around and does worksheets for the day? And you believe this is fair?

Oh please. Feeble bullsh*t and weak attempt. Charlie Brown can be enjoyed by anyone without a stick up their ass.
I will give you a generous 7/10.


Oh, so government sponsorship of a particular religion is okay as long as it's fun!

/again, I don't think this particular case is egregious, but I think it's okay to err on the side of caution when government sponsorship of religion is at stake. And clearly here some parents were unhappy about sending their children to a church to see an allegorical play about the birth of Jesus.
2012-12-05 09:57:10 AM  
6 votes:

AbbeySomeone: If you are offended don't let your kids go.


I don't think anyone's offended by the cartoon/play. What they take offense to is the school-sponsored religious activity.
2012-12-05 09:51:42 AM  
6 votes:

R.A.Danny: I hope and pray that your hearts are turned back to the Lord. It isn't too late.


Oh good, you're going to pray. I was concerned you were going to do something that could actually accomplish anything.

No public school should be bringing kids to a performance within explicitly proselytizing tone, much less one that includes passages from a religious text presented in anything but a scholarly fashion.
2012-12-05 10:49:54 AM  
5 votes:

Rincewind53: Zeus wasn't born on December 25th
Mithra wasn't born on December 25th.


And niether was Jesus, so we're consistent.
2012-12-05 10:49:32 AM  
5 votes:
Pulling kids out of class to see a church-sponsored play about a religious holiday outside of the context of a religious studies class is clearly over the line of acceptable amounts of religion in school; based on the decisions of our courts.

It doesn't matter if it's voluntary or not, it doesn't belong in school. Take your kids to church on your own damn time.
2012-12-05 10:01:10 AM  
5 votes:

R.A.Danny: The Bible, the Quran, and other religious writings have been studied in public schools for years, with full legal backing. They may certainly bring kids to religious ceremonies in the name of education.


If they're going to have a scholarly discussion about the religious themes in the play upon returning to school and explore comparative religious education regarding the historical origins of Christmas (including Saturnalia and pagans) and other religions' observances, then of course it is legitimate. Somehow, though, I doubt that is what is happening.
2012-12-05 09:57:47 AM  
5 votes:

R.A.Danny: They may certainly bring kids to religious ceremonies in the name of education.


For the purpose of education, yes, but it's a very fuzzy line. A religious studies class could attend a mass, but you couldn't send the entire 5th grade, for example.
2012-12-05 09:54:33 AM  
5 votes:

minoridiot: Aren't field trips optional?


Sure. But the question has nothing to do with the children's or parents' consent or ability to opt out, it has to do with the initiation of state action.

The school couldn't say, "Hey, we're taking a 'field trip' to 'watch' Catholic Mass, but you can opt out if you don't want to go" and have it pass muster.
2012-12-05 11:30:11 AM  
4 votes:

Coco LaFemme: FloydA: doczoidberg:

And why isn't there just a word for someone who thinks the idea of a god is silly, but doesn't care to promote that thought to others? -- You know, like an apathetic atheist. An atheist who doesn't care what others do.

There should be a way to distinguish guys like me from those other jerks.

Apatheist

Hey, that's me too. I give not one rat's wet asshole about anyone else's religious beliefs, and I have no desire to try and change people's minds about what they believe. Just mind your own farking business.


For someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about what people believe and wishes them to just mind their own farking business, you sure do spend a lot of time trying convince them that they're wrong.
2012-12-05 11:23:51 AM  
4 votes:

Coco LaFemme: Slaves2Darkness: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

Why? Because we object to religious indoctrination, even if it comes in the form of cartoons?

I must be a different kind of atheist because I don't believe "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown" is religious indoctrination.


Showing "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown" in the school auditorium with no religious leaders present = not indoctrination.

Taking students to multiple religious venues (including at least the big three) outside of ceremony times, and studying the history of religion in general = not indoctrination.

Taking students to a church to watch "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown" being sponsored by the church with no other religion getting equal time = indoctrination.

Taking students to a church to see a church service with no other religion getting equal time = indoctrination.

That's where they step over the line. They're both giving one religion preferential treatment and taking students to a church-sponsored activity.

----

Again, if this were happening at a mosque, most of the parents in the class would be in outrage mode.
2012-12-05 11:16:34 AM  
4 votes:

Coco LaFemme: Trivia Jockey: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

Oh please.

You don't think this is the kind of stuff that makes other people believe all atheists are like this?


In all fairness, I suppose most atheists do have an issue with a public school carving out class time to go to a church to watch a religious-themed presentation.

So if atheists are hated for this so be it....that is, unless the same haters would be fine with the class going to see "A Roger Rabbit Ramadan" at the Aliq Aman Mosque too.
2012-12-05 11:06:18 AM  
4 votes:
The only coward in this story is the pastor of the church who caved into a threat. The Atheists have a right to take legal action and did so according to their beliefs. The school principal took a stand on the issue and handled it in a very appropriate fashion. The actors in the play prepared for what they felt was an appropriate Christmas presentation. If I did not know better, it looks to me like the pastor of the church staged the whole thing very carefully to draw attention to his church.
2012-12-05 10:16:56 AM  
4 votes:

Coco LaFemme: You're kidding, right? THIS WAS VOLUNTARY. As in, not required.


And where was the voluntary activity for the Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc? Sure, the Christians get an optional event that they can enjoy, but nobody else gets an option? So one group gets to go have a day-long field trip to a church, to participate in a religious event, while everybody else sits around and does worksheets for the day? And you believe this is fair?
2012-12-05 10:16:29 AM  
4 votes:

xanadian: Rincewind53: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

Because they don't like children going to see school-sponsored plays in churches about the birth of Jesus?

....where parents can opt out of the field trip for whatever reasons (including them not wanting their children to potentially be indoctrinated into Christianity)? A. It's right in TFA that it's voluntary and B. field trips have been "optional" since day one.


Look, I don't think this is particularly egregious and I don't actually have much of a problem with it myself. But I can see why some people might, especially with the statement from the pastor explaining that this is to explain the origins of Christmas. Also, the "Well, you don't have to come" argument doesn't give the school the right to do otherwise impermissible things. It's about school sponsorship, and who wants to be the kid who has to explain to his classmates why he isn't going along with everyone else? If the school took a "field trip" to a megachurch to go see Billy Graham, and made it "optional", it'd still be unconstitutional as hell.
2012-12-05 10:10:12 AM  
4 votes:
hello? yes, this is atheist.

i love a charlie brown christmas. and the biblical content doesn't bother me one bit. it's just as fictional as the rest of the story, but it's sweet in its intent. sometimes people should just STFU and relax.
2012-12-05 09:57:02 AM  
4 votes:

Coco LaFemme: We're never going to be a secular society, completely devoid of religious worship.


This exists to protect believers, too. Does this school have no Jews? Muslims? Hindus? Is it right for the school to discriminate against them? Sure, it's an atheist organization that's doing the complaining, but by what right does the school marginalize religious believers that aren't Christian?
2012-12-05 09:45:54 AM  
4 votes:

Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.


Really. You just do NOT f*ck with Charlie Brown Christmas special. You just do not go there. If you are offended don't let your kids go.

Cythraul: Most atheists I know love Charlie Brown Christmas.


Religious people give us plenty of reason to loathe them as well but I have watched that show every year since it came out.
2012-12-05 02:49:57 PM  
3 votes:
I read TFA, though not all 600+ posts in this thread. One thing really stood out:

Do the schools have so little to teach, and the kids have so much time on their hands, that this school has to resort to filling up time by busing students to somewhere, anywhere, for the purposes of entertainment? And more specifically, a play duplicating something that every last one of them will watch on TV anyway? And probably already have the DVD of?

Seriously, with all the talk about schools needing to keep kids there year-round for more instruction, ending classes in non-core subjects so more time can be spent on the same, and whatnot, why are they taking the kids out of school to go to a play? Especially that play? Or, for that matter, if there was one based on Frosty the Snowman, or Rudolf the Red-Nosed Reindeer, or How the Grinch Stole Christmas, or It's a Wonderful LIfe ... you're going to see those in December. They're practically inescapable, kind of like that recording of dogs barking Jingle Bells. Why pull the kids out of school, and waste at least half a day's instructional time, for that?

If the church really wanted kids to see their play, instead of just taking a fall to whip up fake outrage, they could have put it on any time. Saturday afternoon would be nice. They could have done a kids-only performance. They could have done a whole lot of things. Instead, they managed to hit on every way of doing it wrong -- taking time away from school, duplicating something that's ubiquitous, and of course holding it in a church -- and then cried to the media when some anonymous person supposedly objected. Not the school, I should point out. Not anybody identifiable.

And btw, Subby, there's no sign of atheist outrage over people watching "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown." None. Period. Not in the article, not anywhere. Watch anything you like; nobody's stopping you. Preferably watch it when you would otherwise be submitting trollish headlines to Fark.
2012-12-05 12:34:11 PM  
3 votes:
I'm not a believer. I love that show and we watch the cartoon every year, but I'd have real and significant problems with letting my own 5th & 1st grade girls go on a school-managed trip to a church.

Sure, it's voluntary. Voluntary in the sense that if you don't sign the permission slip your kid gets separated from her classmates to sit & do dull bookwork all day in detention-like conditions while their friends go on the bus & see a fun show and you as a parent are the bad guy. Not to mention whatever treatment she gets from her peers afterward for being so decidedly separated from them based on faith. And I know for a fact there're other non-believing, Jewish, Hindu, and Muslim kids at our elementary school; what would they do?

The school could do anything; take the kids to see any sort of Christmas or holiday show. I'd even be fine with the same Charlie Brown Christmas play. Just not one at a church or run by a church.

I truly have no problem with religion, Christians, or Christianity. Almost every Christian I meet is a fine person. The ideals of Christianity are wonderful. I just want my kids to be able to go to public school without being proselytized to by any religion. Is that not too much to ask?
2012-12-05 12:03:46 PM  
3 votes:

Qwertyette: Hey atheists, don't be a dick.

It's possible for religion to exist, be studied, and to allow our children to be exposed to it. If you don't like it, you're just as bad as the homeschoolers that don't want their children in school because they are afraid of teaching them such subjects as "logic" and "reason". Religion is a big part of our history and culture. Would you sue the school for teaching about the holocost just because you don't believe it happened?

//agnostic


There's a primary difference between learning about religion and taking part in it. This smacks of taking part in religion -- travelling to a church to attend the production of a church-sponsored show with a religious message. They're not travelling to a library to attend a lecture about the history of December solstice celebrations throughout the world.
2012-12-05 11:34:41 AM  
3 votes:

Epicedion: At this point, "militant" is used to describe any atheist with a voiced opinion.


Exactly. The only atheist they can tolerate is one who just bends over the takes it in the behind. Anything else, and you're "militant".
2012-12-05 11:33:39 AM  
3 votes:

IAmRight: If you're militant about, well, virtually anything involving beliefs and other people's thoughts, you should go off yourself. Intolerant atheists are just as annoying as intolerant Christians - love how many of them in this thread automatically assume "oh hey, look, I bet those other people hate Muslims!" to deflect their whininess.

/not militant because the extent of my outrage is typing this post
//and honestly, I started yawning by the end of typing it


"Militant" with respect to "atheist" is usually just an epithet used to encourage backpedaling and meekness. Which is funny, since apparently the meek get to inherit the Earth. At this point, "militant" is used to describe any atheist with a voiced opinion.
2012-12-05 11:24:53 AM  
3 votes:
So we live in a society where grown men watching "My Little Pony" should be celebrated, but "A Charlie Brown Christmas" should be vilified.
2012-12-05 11:24:32 AM  
3 votes:
I suspect the headlines would read differently if the play being performed at a local mosque and had to do with a re-enactment of Muhammad's revelations.
2012-12-05 11:21:50 AM  
3 votes:

IAmRight: FloydA: No. That's kind of my point. It would be a ridiculous thing to do.

I meant the reading part - does anyone read that sh*t in public?


I've never heard of such a thing.


/it'd be okay if the kids went to watch some re-enactments of Futurama's Xmas episodes, though, right?



During school hours? No, I don't think so. I'd prefer it if schools were actually teaching kids important things. They can watch TV at home.


//what if it took place in a church simply because they had available space on that night?

On their own time, parents can take their kids anywhere they choose. Schools have to be a bit more picky about where they take kids.
2012-12-05 11:21:17 AM  
3 votes:

Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.


and this is why atheists hate religion - most adherents to any particular religion seem to be blissfully unaware that another view point exists and if they ARE aware the adherents are dismissive of that view point.

Think about the quandary of a muslim family might be in here - allow the kid to go and violate their religious feelings etc or deny their kid the trip and wonder if he'll be ostracized for it.

These two trivial points are just that - trivial points - there very well could be other far more important issues in play.

On the surface it seems harmless enough but it in fact introduces a complication into others lives that just doesn't need to be there and in fact shouldn't be there.

So yeah, cultural and religious ignorance sucks and in todays United States, shouldn't be there.

Plus, it's that crappy Chuck Brown schlock - I've had it up to here with that dead guys cartoons - bring back Prince Valium
2012-12-05 11:15:09 AM  
3 votes:

Coco LaFemme: You don't think this is the kind of stuff that makes other people believe all atheists are like this?


No...because the people that hate atheists already hate them, merely for being atheists. And many of them don't really understand the concept of 'separation of church and state' anyway, so they'll be mad any time an atheist complains that the separation has been violated. Regardless of what the subject is.
2012-12-05 11:13:05 AM  
3 votes:

IAmRight: FloydA: Would it be appropriate for me to take my students to a reading of Bertrand Russell's "Why I Am Not a Christian"?

Do people actually do this?


No. That's kind of my point. It would be a ridiculous thing to do. Public schools should not be in the business of supporting or endorsing one religion over any other, or of no religion over any. It's simply not their place. Religious teaching should be left up to the parents and their chosen ministers, not government functionaries.
2012-12-05 11:12:09 AM  
3 votes:

xanadian: Someone forgot to tell these "freethinkers" that they do not have a Constitutional right to not be offended.


I'm an atheist and love the Charlie Brown holiday specials. I actually came in here to poo-poo the article, because Atheist outrage goes overboard sometimes (sometimes, a lot of the time).

But having a public school shuttle kids to a church to watch it... that's different than just watching it in the privacy of your own home. And it's illegal.
2012-12-05 11:11:37 AM  
3 votes:
Gah! So farking tired of militant atheists giving us regular non-interfering in other people's fun atheists a bad name.
2012-12-05 11:08:22 AM  
3 votes:

R.A.Danny: I hope and pray that your hearts are turned back to the Lord. It isn't too late.


Sorry, the grip of His Noodley Appendage is perpetually binding.
2012-12-05 11:06:09 AM  
3 votes:

Slaves2Darkness: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

Why? Because we object to religious indoctrination, even if it comes in the form of cartoons?


I must be a different kind of atheist because I don't believe "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown" is religious indoctrination.
2012-12-05 11:05:45 AM  
3 votes:

AbbeySomeone: FloydA: I'm a teacher, and I'm an atheist. I keep my opinions about religion out of the classroom, because I have always felt that they really have no business there.

Am I doing it wrong? Should I be proselytizing in favor of atheism in my classroom? Would it be appropriate for me to take my students to a reading of Bertrand Russell's "Why I Am Not a Christian"? (Voluntarily, of course- the Christians in the class can sit in the classroom and do additional work.)

It never even occurred to me that this might be an appropriate use of class time and school money.

OMG I feel so silly. This thread has shown me that Charlie Brown is merely a tool of the Christian agenda.
/off to rethink my life



Does that reply follow logically from my post?

I like the Charlie Brown Christmas, but it's not really educational, it is religious-themed entertainment. That's fine, but it's not the business of public schools to entertain or indoctrinate students. It's the business of public schools to educate the students.

Why would anyone want to leave their children's religious learning up to public school teachers? It seems unwise to me. Aren't parents and ministers better suited to that task?
2012-12-05 11:04:51 AM  
3 votes:

Cythraul: Most atheists I know love Charlie Brown Christmas.


And our problem isn't with A Charlie Brown Christmas. It's with a public school taking kids to see a play about Christianity's central character at a church. You know, that whole separation of church and state thing.
2012-12-05 11:04:29 AM  
3 votes:
I'm an atheist, and this shiat annoys the hell out of me.
Why do atheists have to act like such a-holes?

And why isn't there just a word for someone who thinks the idea of a god is silly, but doesn't care to promote that thought to others? -- You know, like an apathetic atheist. An atheist who doesn't care what others do.

There should be a way to distinguish guys like me from those other jerks.
2012-12-05 11:02:21 AM  
3 votes:

JackieRabbit: Recipe for Christians Are Under Attack Attention Whoring:

1. Be a church
2. Sponsor a showing of a Children's cartoon that is about Christmas. Make sure it has a biblical passage
3. Schedule the showing at a public elementary school CHURCH4. Make sure the event is highly publicized
5. When some whacked atheist group expresses their butthurt OUTRAGE, cancel the event and contact the media (AWing begets AWing)
6. Profit


FIFY
2012-12-05 10:41:02 AM  
3 votes:
School wants to take kids to church and someone isn't happy about this? I wouldn't be either if my kid went there...
2012-12-05 10:37:57 AM  
3 votes:

SilentStrider: Agnostic here.
A Charlie Brown Christmas is one of the few times where I get to feel like a kid at Christmastime. Given that I'm in my 30's, I cherish this. Because those moments are few and far between.
So if anyone has a problem with Charlie Brown, and my love of it, I say to you this: SCREW YOU.
I didn't RTFA.


FIFY
2012-12-05 10:29:25 AM  
3 votes:

t3knomanser: Coco LaFemme: You're kidding, right? THIS WAS VOLUNTARY. As in, not required.

And where was the voluntary activity for the Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc? Sure, the Christians get an optional event that they can enjoy, but nobody else gets an option? So one group gets to go have a day-long field trip to a church, to participate in a religious event, while everybody else sits around and does worksheets for the day? And you believe this is fair?


No, I believe this is a stupid thing to worry about. Too many people give too big of a shiat about religion, whether they're religious themselves or not. It boggles my farking mind sometimes the shiat people will find to complain about. In high school, we went to a Catholic church, a synagogue, a mosque, a Mormon temple, a Baptist church, and a Ba'hai temple. All in the interest of understanding that hey, we aren't alone on this rock, other people live here too. The non-Catholics didn't biatch when we went to the cathedral, the non-Jews didn't biatch when we went to a synagogue, the non-Muslims didn't biatch when we went to a mosque, the non-Mormons didn't biatch when we went to a Mormon temple, the non-Baptists didn't biatch when we went to a Baptist church, and the non-Ba'hai folks didn't biatch when we went there either.

Those trips were all voluntary, if you didn't want to go, you didn't have to. Many of us did though, not just because the architecture in these buildings was stunning, but because it was a chance to LEARN SOMETHING. ZOMG LEARNING IN SCHOOL?!?!! Alert the farking press. I was totally non-religious at this point, having left the church a couple years earlier, so I was totally and completely outside even the sphere the other students were in, and I didn't see these trips as some kind of "Fark you, Coco LaFemme, you filthy non-believer swine" exercise.
2012-12-05 10:27:45 AM  
3 votes:
Agnostic here.
A Charlie Brown Christmas is one of the few times where I get to feel like a kid at Christmastime. Given that I'm in my 30's, I cherish this. Because those moments are few and far between.
So if anyone has a problem with Charlie Brown, and my love of it, I say to you this: SCREW YOU.
2012-12-05 10:02:39 AM  
3 votes:
He said it was clear "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown" did not pose a constitutional issue.

"Christmas is a Christian holiday - hence it's name - Christmas," the pastor wrote in his statement. "Our program addresses its origins with light-hearted songs and theatre. The context of the birth of Christ is broadly described in both Old and New Testament texts."


Whooooooooooooooooooosh.
2012-12-05 09:51:02 AM  
3 votes:

R.A.Danny: I hope and pray that your hearts are turned back to the Lord. It isn't too late.


Sorry. I signed Satan's exclusivity deal.
2012-12-05 02:58:55 PM  
2 votes:

chuckufarlie: that is a government body that oversees the education process. They are not actually running the schools. They do not decide things like sending kids to see a cartoon.


That's like saying that the DMV isn't a government agency because the government body that oversees the license-issuing process doesn't decide things like how people should stand in line at the office. It may in fact qualify as the most ridiculous thing I've ever seen in writing.
2012-12-05 02:37:38 PM  
2 votes:

chuckufarlie: My local school system is not a part of the U.S. government. I do not know of any school that is. The local school system is not part of the state, country or municipal government. They do get financing via property taxes but that does not make them a govt. entity.


They're run by state employees and receive their operational funding directly from the government.
2012-12-05 02:24:30 PM  
2 votes:
You know, in most circumstances like this, I've generally found myself saying that the atheists' position is not entirely reasonable, and I stick by that. But this was a public-school trip, it was held in a church, and it's A Charlie Brown Christmas: the most explicitly religious Christmas special still in regular American broadcast (having taken that spot over from The Little Drummer Boy). To make a school trip out of that is way beyond reasonable bounds.
2012-12-05 01:20:29 PM  
2 votes:

Rindred: RE: Arkansas

Local Christian churches here don't usually expect any voices in opposition to whatever they want, especially ones who have a lawyer.

Difficulty: atheists can't hold elected state public offices


Remember when atheists forbade Christians from holding office?

Yeah, me either, but I keep hearing about how atheists are just as bad, so it must have happened somewhere.
2012-12-05 12:51:45 PM  
2 votes:

skullkrusher: GregInIndy: Sure, it's voluntary. Voluntary in the sense that if you don't sign the permission slip your kid gets separated from her classmates to sit & do dull bookwork all day in detention-like conditions while their friends go on the bus & see a fun show and you as a parent are the bad guy.

well, you would be the bad guy by preventing your kids from seeing a live action rendition of a show you love merely because it is being performed in a church.
The show itself quotes the Bible. It talks about the birth of Jesus Christ as the important thing to the Christmas season. The fact that you're cool with your kids hearing that but not if it happens in a church is mind boggling.


It only boggles if you don't think context, authority, location, or who's doing the presenting or speaking matters at all.

Moreover, I'd disagree with you on the content. It quotes a bible passage about Christ's birth, which is fine, but there's an entire message about the problems of commercialism and crassness vs. caring and goodwill for all that I like a lot, and that completely bypasses Linus's speech near the end.

What I don't want is for a church to use the school's authority over the kids to put forth any of their beliefs as objective truth. If it were a play at a playhouse of the same material it would be in a completely different context. Context and intent matter whether you like it or not.
2012-12-05 12:15:27 PM  
2 votes:
Good grief! From the article, it is clear that the pastor of the church cancelled the event! Not the atheists, not the principal, not the school board or anyone else. The farking pastor cancelled his own event. The poor baby was worried that his little play might be attacked. If he had any courage at all, he'd have stood up and defended his faith, church and Charlie Brown. The pastor has the backbone of a jellyfish or, more likely, is ginning up the controversy to promote ticket sales for his weekend performance. Basically you have a pastor crying, "Oppression!" when the only thing that has happened is a concerned parent contacted a group and they sought some legal counsel.
2012-12-05 12:08:56 PM  
2 votes:

FlashHarry: citoriman: You really don't get it. Some people actually care about the separation of church and state from a moral perspective. Bringing a school to church violates that. If every "athesit" was like you and just STFU and relaxed, Christians would have us living in the 1500's by now.

teach intelligent design in a publicly funded school? i'll be right with you at the barricades. but this charlie brown, for chrissakes (sorry, for FSM's sake). it's harmless.


It's not about Charlie Brown. Its about bringing kids from a public school to church to learn about jesus.

From the pastor involved: "Christmas is a Christian holiday - hence it's name - Christmas....The context of the birth of Christ is broadly described in both Old and New Testament texts."

Put a damn VHS on in the classroom if you need Charlie Brown. Why waste students' time to bus over to a church to watch a crappy rendition? Because getting kids through their church doors however they can is a typical christian recruitment tactic.

One more thing: all you old farts need to accept that Charlie Brown may have been important to you when you were a kid, but it has been a long time since children in general gave half a crap about Charlie Brown, in any form. I guarantee if this performance had gone on, the kids would have been bored to tears.
2012-12-05 12:02:20 PM  
2 votes:
I think we've gotten to that point in a thread where the people posting haven't read the article, nor any of the other posts in the thread.

*drops mic*
2012-12-05 12:00:11 PM  
2 votes:

dopekitty74: BronyMedic: dopekitty74: Gah! So farking tired of militant atheists giving us regular non-interfering in other people's fun atheists a bad name.



Just look at that Atheist drinking his coffee. It's so EVIL.

Sorry, but that's highly inaccurate. I'm talking about the ones that go around protesting things like this that are harmless and fun.

I'm atheist and when my kids expressed an interest in things like sunday school and church based youth groups let them go and decide for themselves what they want to believe, rather than attempt to force my own belief system on them.


Can you not see the difference in you allowing your children to do such a thing, and why a public school should not be taking kids to a church service? Especially one in Arkansas that might not have the most noble of intentions (given their track record in that state of trying to jam Christ into the public school setting to the exclusion of everything else and getting smacked down again and again).
2012-12-05 11:57:37 AM  
2 votes:

Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.


Yeah, because Fox takes the complaints of one asshole and makes it like we are all bunch of pricks. Screw the Conservative Mainstream Media.
2012-12-05 11:51:54 AM  
2 votes:

xanadian: Rincewind53: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

Because they don't like children going to see school-sponsored plays in churches about the birth of Jesus?

....where parents can opt out of the field trip for whatever reasons (including them not wanting their children to potentially be indoctrinated into Christianity)? A. It's right in TFA that it's voluntary and B. field trips have been "optional" since day one.


Did you consider the fact that because of the atheists' religious beliefs, they are being forced to exclude themselves from a day of PUBLIC education?

By your logic, it would be OK to have public school taught in a church, by a priest, from the bible, because parents have the option to homeschool.
2012-12-05 11:47:21 AM  
2 votes:

Coco LaFemme: I'm not incredibly smart or privileged. The last thing I am is privileged. My parents would get a kick out of that one.


Well apparently you get to live in a world where everything is a magical learning experience full of learning and magic.

Look, it's an indictment of your "but but but they'll learn something" shtick and not intended to be an accurate assessment of your life story. You're acting like everything is okay because everything can be learned from, which is great if you live on Sesame Street but doesn't necessarily translate to reality. Often times you just get punched in the eye. But in your view, learning how to drain fluids from around your own black eye might be a positive learning experience.
2012-12-05 11:46:13 AM  
2 votes:

FlashHarry: hello? yes, this is atheist.

i love a charlie brown christmas. and the biblical content doesn't bother me one bit. it's just as fictional as the rest of the story, but it's sweet in its intent. sometimes people should just STFU and relax.


You really don't get it. Some people actually care about the separation of church and state from a moral perspective. Bringing a school to church violates that. If every "athesit" was like you and just STFU and relaxed, Christians would have us living in the 1500's by now.
2012-12-05 11:45:31 AM  
2 votes:

xanadian: Rincewind53: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

Because they don't like children going to see school-sponsored plays in churches about the birth of Jesus?

....where parents can opt out of the field trip for whatever reasons (including them not wanting their children to potentially be indoctrinated into Christianity)? A. It's right in TFA that it's voluntary and B. field trips have been "optional" since day one.


So when is the voluntary field trip to the local mosque during Ramadan scheduled?
2012-12-05 11:45:23 AM  
2 votes:

MilesTeg: Many "atheists" are really just anti-Christian religious bigots. Calling yourself an "atheist" just makes it sound better.

Their entire goal is not being comfortable in their own beliefs but to cause as much angst as possible for those they disagree with.


"Many". Sure, yeah, you should go with that.
2012-12-05 11:44:37 AM  
2 votes:
Again, the very same people championing this silly play at the local church would set themselves on fire in outrage, if the play had to do with a non-christian belief system.

This is all about pushing a particular belief system with the local government's approval. And it's not right, even if the religion in question is the dominant one in this country.
2012-12-05 11:44:18 AM  
2 votes:

Rincewind53: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

Because they don't like children going to see school-sponsored plays in churches about the birth of Jesus?


Notice the "outrage" is coming from the Christian right? No "outrage" from atheists. Just a request. It's the "you MUST allow us to indoctrinate your kids" people who are "outraged"...
2012-12-05 11:38:24 AM  
2 votes:

IAmRight: Threatening lawsuits isn't voicing an opinion.


I love how suing something for something they should be sued for has become somehow wrong.
2012-12-05 11:36:13 AM  
2 votes:

Coco LaFemme: I was raised Catholic. I no longer am, but that's beside the point. I was raised Catholic, and often was exposed to non-Catholic teachings, whether it was from visiting another faith's place of worship or learning about it in class. THAT'S THE POINT OF LEARNING.


Yes, we get it, you're incredibly smart and privileged and every experience you could possibly have is ultimately spinnable into some positive life-affirming wondrous examination of the self.

Over here in reality, uncomfortable shiat is often just uncomfortable. And Constitutionally disallowed shiat is still Constitutionally disallowed.
2012-12-05 11:35:59 AM  
2 votes:

Coco LaFemme: Marcintosh: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

and this is why atheists hate religion - most adherents to any particular religion seem to be blissfully unaware that another view point exists and if they ARE aware the adherents are dismissive of that view point.

Think about the quandary of a muslim family might be in here - allow the kid to go and violate their religious feelings etc or deny their kid the trip and wonder if he'll be ostracized for it.

These two trivial points are just that - trivial points - there very well could be other far more important issues in play.

On the surface it seems harmless enough but it in fact introduces a complication into others lives that just doesn't need to be there and in fact shouldn't be there.

So yeah, cultural and religious ignorance sucks and in todays United States, shouldn't be there.

Plus, it's that crappy Chuck Brown schlock - I've had it up to here with that dead guys cartoons - bring back Prince Valium

I was raised Catholic. I no longer am, but that's beside the point. I was raised Catholic, and often was exposed to non-Catholic teachings, whether it was from visiting another faith's place of worship or learning about it in class. THAT'S THE POINT OF LEARNING. How can you claim to be devoutly religious, yet the mere exposure to someone else's faith can make you suddenly question your own? Attending a bar mitzvah when I wasn't Jewish didn't invalidate the fact that I was Catholic, and didn't "violate" anything that had to do with my Catholicism. I was learning about a tradition from another faith, and it was interesting.

Learning about other religions is not "state-sponsored indoctrination", nor should it be sneered upon as such.


You must not know what it's like to be a Muslim in a primarily christian area. Here: educate yourself (audio, 33 min, transcript available).

/Consider yourself fortunate to live in an area a little bit more tolerant than the norm.
2012-12-05 11:33:35 AM  
2 votes:

Keeve: They interviewed representatives from the church, the school district and the Arkansas Society of Freethinkers. Where exactly does it say that it was the church that initially called the media?


They were free to go forward with the field trip if they wanted? Why would they cancel if they didn't want to make a big f*cking deal about it?
2012-12-05 11:31:42 AM  
2 votes:

FauxReal: Via Infinito: [draftsauronpac.files.wordpress.com image 850x548]

/oblig

I didn't make it and I'm not gonna try to shop it clean. But it fits what you posted, so here it is.
[i.imgur.com image 536x600]


I'm an agnostic, my wife is a lapsed Catholic, and our son is a firm believer in the Church of Goldfish Crackers and Cold Milk, but we celebrate Christmas. At this point it's just as much a secular American holiday as it is anything else.

...on that note, you never see Christians getting all up in arms about Halloween or Valentine's Day losing their religious significance.
2012-12-05 11:31:24 AM  
2 votes:

Lord Dimwit: doyner: "Students at Terry Elementary School had been planning to attend a school-day field trip to watch a stage version of the holiday classic - hosted by the church. The event was strictly voluntary and teachers sent home letters explaining the purpose of the trip."

Substitute "church" with "mosque" and regardless of the content of the performance the outrage would have been from Fox's base.

Non-story, folks. Carving out a few hours from a public school day to take kids to a church to watch a story about how Linus and Charlie Brown are touched by the birth of Christ is clearly over the line.

As someone who was non-religious in an extremely religious small town, not "volunteering" to go on this trip meant social suicide.


Having attended public school in Brighton, Tennesse for k-3, I can attest to the validity of this statement. My 1st grade teacher was the Preacher's wife too. It was almost like being home schooled.
2012-12-05 11:28:34 AM  
2 votes:

digitalrain: The AW parent is out of line. She forced the school and every child who didn't opt out to
accommodate her views on religion when they could have just as easily been accommodated
if she'd just oped out her own kid and leave everybody else alone.


Except she didn't. RTFA. The church cancelled it before anyone even approached them. The school had literally nothing to do with the decision not to go.
2012-12-05 11:27:58 AM  
2 votes:

Via Infinito: [draftsauronpac.files.wordpress.com image 850x548]

/oblig


I didn't make it and I'm not gonna try to shop it clean. But it fits what you posted, so here it is.
i.imgur.com
2012-12-05 11:27:14 AM  
2 votes:
Sorry, when you start with the phrase "Let's take a field trip to a church and..." you can stop right there. I'm an atheist and I like Christmas and normally don't care about religious display in public and whatnot but this is over the line of separation of church and state and they are right to complain. If you replaced church with mosque/synagogue/temple you'd be hearing the outrage from the right.
2012-12-05 11:25:43 AM  
2 votes:
Let me get this straight:

The school tried to have a field trip that would take students to a church to watch a show being put on by the church, and the show has a religious message that's supported by the church?

I don't see who could possibly have a problem with this.
2012-12-05 11:25:24 AM  
2 votes:
Setting aside, for now, the fact that Charlie Brown (and anything 'Peanuts' for that matter) is horribly boring, no one in that school district thought that a field trip to a Church was perhaps not a good idea?

Maybe quit spending my tax dollars on completely non-educational field trips, and spend that money on educating the little snowflakes, before they fall even farther behind students in other first-world countries.
2012-12-05 11:24:35 AM  
2 votes:

xanadian: Rincewind53: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

Because they don't like children going to see school-sponsored plays in churches about the birth of Jesus?

....where parents can opt out of the field trip for whatever reasons (including them not wanting their children to potentially be indoctrinated into Christianity)? A. It's right in TFA that it's voluntary and B. field trips have been "optional" since day one.


Just because something is "optional" doesn't mean that it was ever okay for it to be suggested in the first place.

Why can't the kids be shown the Charlie Brown movie at their school? Why does it have to be at a church?
2012-12-05 11:23:54 AM  
2 votes:
My employer (a liberal organization in the heathen area of Cambridge, MA that rhymes with "Schmarvard") hates Christmas so much, they told us to not show up to work starting close of business Dec 21 and don't want to see us again until Jan 2. And they have the nerve to pay us for it!

/woot
2012-12-05 11:23:07 AM  
2 votes:
This fits the grand religious tradition of knowingly stepping over the line, then crying persecution when they're pushed back.
2012-12-05 11:22:10 AM  
2 votes:

kerryclendenon: Sounds like derp on all sides. The War on Christmas, and Fox's War on the War on Christmas. As long as all eyes are open and minds as well that this is a time of celebration of many cultures - pagans, Christians, Jews, etc, and all cultures are given equal weight in telling their stories, I am fine with it. I think the Atheist militance against traditions is annoying and makes me embarrassed to be an atheist. And Fox News's attempt at emphasizing their butt hurt over this is also embarrassing. Both sides need to chill out.


Separation of Church and State.

This is not a complicated or new issue. Those saying it's not a big deal and "atheists" should chill out are just completely missing the point; this has nothing to do with atheism, this has to do with the state sponsoring one faith over others. It's a constitutional breach. There's an issue here, but that issue is this; why do these Christians hate the Constitution and thus America?
2012-12-05 11:19:44 AM  
2 votes:

This text is now purple: Ask the Tibetans how much they enjoy actual militant atheism.


No thank you. I'd rather laugh at you for thinking State-as-Religion is the same as Atheism/Secular Humanism.

/we need a Godwin's law equivalent for people who say stupid things like this.
2012-12-05 11:09:07 AM  
2 votes:

Babwa Wawa: I guess very few people chose to read the article completely. The church cancelled the event voluntarily, then decided to call the media to talk about how they're being oppressed.

The school board and principal were all for going forward with the field trip.

HELP! HELP! I'M BEING OPPRESSED!


So very, very true. The article also omits the all-too-obvious fact that anyone can watch the Charlie Brown Christmas on network TV, on YouTube or through a home video rental without costing the taxpayers a dime or pulling kids out of class. Good grief!
2012-12-05 11:08:45 AM  
2 votes:
"Atheist outrage" reported by Fox News? *laughs uncontrollably*
2012-12-05 11:08:04 AM  
2 votes:

Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.


Oh please.

Moreover, the headline is really misleading. I doubt anyone cares that the kids were going to watch a Charlie Brown Christmas. I think it had more to do with a field trip and took public school students to church.

If I was a parent, I'd prefer my kid's school not take him/her to church. But I admit this ranks kinda low on my list of things to get upset about.
2012-12-05 11:03:17 AM  
2 votes:
Fox news is a conspiracy site.
2012-12-05 11:02:31 AM  
2 votes:
The parents who stopped this bullshiat deserve a f*cking medal.
2012-12-05 11:00:06 AM  
2 votes:

Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.


Why? Because we object to religious indoctrination, even if it comes in the form of cartoons?
2012-12-05 10:57:58 AM  
2 votes:
Uhhhh......no.

Shocking that FOX News Channel is wrong yet again.


This atheist enjoys Christmas thoroughly. My favorite piece of Christmas music is Handel's Hallelujah Chorus. My favorite Christmas song is a tie between "The Holly and the Ivy" and "Christmas At Ground Zero" by Weird Al.
2012-12-05 10:56:48 AM  
2 votes:
No subby, it's not an atheist outrage. It's a Faux News Fox atheist outrage.
2012-12-05 10:52:06 AM  
2 votes:
I guess very few people chose to read the article completely. The church cancelled the event voluntarily, then decided to call the media to talk about how they're being oppressed.

The school board and principal were all for going forward with the field trip.

HELP! HELP! I'M BEING OPPRESSED!
2012-12-05 10:41:36 AM  
2 votes:

R.A.Danny: Rincewind53: R.A.Danny: Rincewind53: Oh, so government sponsorship of a particular religion is okay as long as it's fun!

Down to about 4/10

I rate your attempt to classify me as a troll at about a 2/10.

Perhaps you are genuinely wounded at the mere mention of Jesus. Mea culpa.


I'm glad you actually read my posts and saw how I mentioned multiple times that I did not think this was egregious. Good reading skills there, champ.

Oh, and P.S., to all the crowd screaming about humorless atheists ruining Christmas, the school isn't the one that cancelled this. THey hadn't even received a formal complaint. The church cancelled it, after hearing that one of the parents had complained the Freethinkers Society and the Freethinkers Society was (gasp) consulting with their lawyer.
2012-12-05 10:29:46 AM  
2 votes:

R.A.Danny: Rincewind53: Oh, so government sponsorship of a particular religion is okay as long as it's fun!

Down to about 4/10


I rate your attempt to classify me as a troll at about a 2/10.
2012-12-05 10:15:01 AM  
2 votes:

xanadian: It's right in TFA that it's voluntary and B. field trips have been "optional" since day one.


And why aren't children of other faiths offered a similar field trip? Why is one group given an advantage that other groups are not?
2012-12-05 10:14:44 AM  
2 votes:

t3knomanser: Coco LaFemme: Is it telling them they're ... not as good as Christians?

Yes. The Christians get a special treat about their holiday myths. No one else does. Giving one group a reward while withholding similar rewards from other groups is the core of marginalization.


You're kidding, right? THIS WAS VOLUNTARY. As in, not required. If you, as a non-Christian, didn't feel comfortable with your child attending a play held in a church.....you didn't send the little snot and all was well. How is a totally voluntary field trip "marginalizing" someone? If every student was forced to attend and then write a report on Christianity, I could see and support the outrage but for fark's sake.....this is people whining for the sake of whining.
2012-12-05 10:12:24 AM  
2 votes:
At first I thought it was ridiculous but I never saw the Christmas special and I didn't know it was quite that religious in nature. Someone up-thread is right, if this was "It's Ramada, Charlie Brown" held in a mosque, people would be rioting in the streets. All or nothing.
2012-12-05 10:11:23 AM  
2 votes:

FlashHarry: hello? yes, this is atheist.

i love a charlie brown christmas. and the biblical content doesn't bother me one bit. it's just as fictional as the rest of the story, but it's sweet in its intent. sometimes people should just STFU and relax.


Someone forgot to tell these "freethinkers" that they do not have a Constitutional right to not be offended.
2012-12-05 10:10:39 AM  
2 votes:
FTFA: Students at Terry Elementary School had been planning to attend a school-day field trip to watch a stage version of the holiday classic - hosted by the church. The event was strictly voluntary and teachers sent home letters explaining the purpose of the trip.

Society of Freethinkers, indeed.
2012-12-05 09:54:49 AM  
2 votes:
This is what it is all about

Still gives me chills
2012-12-05 09:51:21 AM  
2 votes:

Cythraul: R.A.Danny: I hope and pray that your hearts are turned back to the Lord. It isn't too late.

Sorry. I signed Satan's exclusivity deal.


So you DO believe?
2012-12-05 09:49:17 AM  
2 votes:
I hope and pray that your hearts are turned back to the Lord. It isn't too late.
2012-12-08 09:31:20 AM  
1 votes:

Surool: I've heard that new talking point, and it is absurd.


You want it to be absurd because you are a christian. But the fact is that people of all (or no) religions enjoy these holidays. They put up decorations, exchange gifts and partake in many of the common aspects of the season. They are not christians and are not celebration the arbitrary date chosen to represent christ's birthday.

The reason for the season is money ... not your religion. Then again, the reason for your religion is money as well so maybe this does come a full circle.
2012-12-06 11:13:57 AM  
1 votes:

KyDave: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

Yep. Such sad little monkeys:

"Stop liking what I don't like."
"I don't beleive in the man in the sky, and I'm sad that you're doing something -- you should be sad too."
"This life is all there is, so I'm gonna spend it tearing down your belief system."
"I don't want my kid exposed to Jebus, 'cause I'm insecure in my faith - err.. my lack of faith, that is."
"WHAT? The play is in a church?!? This is an outrage. I is ascared of a building."

FTA: "However, a parent objected to the field trip and contacted the Arkansas Society of Freethinkers" instead of just not opting-in her/his little snowflake.
--- Truly, self-righteous pricks


This is why everyone hates you.
2012-12-06 10:48:57 AM  
1 votes:

cybernia: It's a kids' play in a church that has a quote from the Bible. How is that sanctioning any specific religion?


It is a public school class being take to a church for a religious event prepared and run by a religious leader.

You are only speculating that the child wanted to go.

You are only speculating that the play has only one religious line in it. It is a play that could easily stray from the source material to add more religious components.

What about when the priest wants to preach about the "real meaning" of christmas or open the ceremony with a prayer to his god?? Seeing as that it is his job to do this it is not hard to believe that he would.

Watch the actual cartoon in school ... solves all the issues.
2012-12-05 06:56:50 PM  
1 votes:
I seriously suspect one insane person complained and someone else figured they can blame all atheists for the situation. 37 years old and I watch Merry Christmas Charlie Brown EVERY YEAR. It's a great show, it doesn't get overly preachy, and god DAMN is it pure nostalgia from when I was a kid that makes my year a little brighter. And I know many, MANY people who are the same way. But it's Fox News, so what do you expect, it has to be an attack on Christmas/Christianity/Whatever.
2012-12-05 06:41:32 PM  
1 votes:

FloydA: That's not for the protection of the "atheists," it's for the protection of the religious.


which is ironic considering the religious don't appear to be complaining about it, just Athiests (at least from what I have seen)
2012-12-05 06:17:21 PM  
1 votes:

R.A.Danny: I hope and pray


Oh, but you repeat yourself.
2012-12-05 05:51:03 PM  
1 votes:

cybernia: I don't see a problem. They weren't forcing kids to go. The bottom line here is 99.99% of parents didn't have a problem with it and if they don't have a problem, neither do I. And they're not spending my money, but when they do quite often isn't something I agree with but that's the nature of our society. Your tax money goes for a lot of stuff you don't use or agree with.

I don't believe that this separation has to be absolute, there's wiggle room and you have to take each case on its own merits. I'm not afraid of religion or churches and although I don't have kids, if I did I wouldn't have a problem with them being exposed to religion. It might even get them asking questions.


Multiple problems here:

1) Coercion isn't the primary problem (sanctioning is), but courts have repeatedly found that despite the *formal* ability to opt out, the *social* environment is such that kids are *effectively* coerced into a particular action.

2) Tyranny of the majority: If 99% of the parents vote that the black kid has to use a separate bathroom, that wouldn't be okay either. Some things are absolutely off limits.

3) No one's afraid of exposing kids to religion here. But we're concerned when the government sanctions a preferred form of religion.
2012-12-05 04:49:39 PM  
1 votes:

JeffDenver: There is no butt hurt like atheist butt hurt.


There are no better lairs than christian liars.
2012-12-05 04:46:40 PM  
1 votes:
Worst of all, they were not being taught The True Meaning of Christmas (TM)

img.photobucket.com
2012-12-05 04:38:21 PM  
1 votes:

JeffDenver: Right ... they should not point out violations of the constitution because you think it's rude??

LOL! "OMG someone is talking about religion in my presence, call the Police!"

Maybe it's time to grow a thicker skin princess.


Way to miss the point Sunshine. I have watched the Charlie Brown special and would not have an issue with letting a child of mine watch it (if I had any (and we'd probably have a laugh about how people actually believe that the magic stuff is real)).

The issue is with taking public school children to a church so they can attend an event created and hosted by a religious leader. At this point it doesn't matter what the content was (unless it was explicitly secular). It violates the separation of church and state. It alienates a percentage of the population.

As many have pointed out ... the priest backed down at the first sign of resistance. Obviously he is smarter than the bulk of the posters here and knew he was violating the law.
2012-12-05 04:10:39 PM  
1 votes:

chuckufarlie: My school board answers to the people of the school district. That is the way that it works in this state and you would have to be incredibly stupid to say that I am wrong when you have no idea about what happens in my state,


That's because you live in a fictional state where the rules are obviously whatever you say they are.
2012-12-05 03:56:50 PM  
1 votes:

chuckufarlie: if any institute is subject to the separation of Church and State


The Supreme Court decided that public schools are, and they did it a long time ago.
2012-12-05 03:18:46 PM  
1 votes:

kronicfeld: The latest atheist outrage? People watching A public school taking children to church to watch a stage performance of "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown," which has a direct recitation from the bible in its seminal scene


Apparently, public money going to art of crosses in urine is acceptable mingling of gov't and religion though.
2012-12-05 03:07:58 PM  
1 votes:

chuckufarlie: Surool: chuckufarlie: Surool: chuckufarlie: Maybe you should ask all of those kids of various religions if they want to watch the cartoon. I am pretty sure that nobody here speaks for them.

No, because we have laws about this, and the kids' opinions don't change the laws.

what laws? This does not fall under separation of church and state.

It does when public school money busses kids to a church to watch a christian cartoon during school time. If you want your kids to go, schedule the showing of the cartoon for after school and take the kids there yourself.

NO. NO. NO.

The school is not a government entity. CASE CLOSED.


Not to burst your bubble, but public schools are subject to the Establishment Clause just as any other public entity. There have been innumerable Constitutional law decisions that have arising from public schools, not the least of which has been desegregation, but certainly a number of First Amendment and Establishment Clause cases. I'm not saying this does or does not violate it (although it may by the narrowest of margins), but a public school is indeed subject to it.
2012-12-05 02:59:43 PM  
1 votes:

chuckufarlie: Surool: chuckufarlie: Maybe you should ask all of those kids of various religions if they want to watch the cartoon. I am pretty sure that nobody here speaks for them.

No, because we have laws about this, and the kids' opinions don't change the laws.

what laws? This does not fall under separation of church and state.


It does when public school money busses kids to a church to watch a christian cartoon during school time. If you want your kids to go, schedule the showing of the cartoon for after school and take the kids there yourself.
2012-12-05 02:58:08 PM  
1 votes:
It's from FoxNews, you morons.
You've been trolled.
//I'm not outraged.
2012-12-05 02:56:57 PM  
1 votes:

skullkrusher: justtray: chuckufarlie: Surool: skullkrusher: but showing the Charlie Brown special in a classroom would be ok?

No.

maybe they should sent the atheist kids to the cafeteria while the rest of the kids watch the program.

Here's a better solution.

Send your kids to catholic school, and leave out all religion out of public school, voluntary or otherwise.


Kids SHOULD learn about religion in public schools. They SHOULD experience cultural practices and beliefs to expand their understanding of the world and their neighbors. This SHOULD NOT be voluntary. This should be part of the curriculum. However, they SHOULD NOT be taught religion as a matter of faith.

Once again you're wrong. Incessantly, vociferously and arrogantly wrong.


Knowing about the existence of religion ≠ promoting it. However, sending the non-Christians to the cafeteria while the Christians get a cartoon isn't the solution... it is against the law and should be.
2012-12-05 02:56:07 PM  
1 votes:

chuckufarlie: what laws? This does not fall under separation of church and state.


Yes, it does.
2012-12-05 02:52:57 PM  
1 votes:

Surool: Public Schools should not be promoting Islam, Judaism, Christianity or anything else. There are religious schools out there for that... Send your kids there.


agreed. Promotion of any faith (or faith in general) has no place in a public school.
2012-12-05 02:52:57 PM  
1 votes:

chuckufarlie: Maybe you should ask all of those kids of various religions if they want to watch the cartoon. I am pretty sure that nobody here speaks for them.


No, because we have laws about this, and the kids' opinions don't change the laws.
2012-12-05 02:52:52 PM  
1 votes:

chuckufarlie: nope. They are not governed by any government agencies. Get over it.


Here's the one for New York.
2012-12-05 02:50:51 PM  
1 votes:

justtray: chuckufarlie: Surool: skullkrusher: but showing the Charlie Brown special in a classroom would be ok?

No.

maybe they should sent the atheist kids to the cafeteria while the rest of the kids watch the program.

Here's a better solution.

Send your kids to catholic school, and leave out all religion out of public school, voluntary or otherwise.



Kids SHOULD learn about religion in public schools. They SHOULD experience cultural practices and beliefs to expand their understanding of the world and their neighbors. This SHOULD NOT be voluntary. This should be part of the curriculum. However, they SHOULD NOT be taught religion as a matter of faith.

Once again you're wrong. Incessantly, vociferously and arrogantly wrong.
2012-12-05 02:50:47 PM  
1 votes:
I didn't read the whole thread, it's pretty long.

Add mine to the voices which say why does a public school have to go to a church to see a live performance of CBC? If you want your kids to see it, take them yourself on the weekend or after school. Or you can all watch it together on TV as a family.

Going as a school trip is just wrong. It seems so obvious to me; I don't get why not everybody feels that way. It's not an issue whether you (or I) are personally offended or not. It's the exact same issue as a nativity scene on the courthouse grounds. Nobody is attacking Christmas or Christians by saying that you can put it on your church grounds or even your front yard just as easily.

Why this mania to put your religion in everyone's face? And why demonize people who feel that way?

Public school kids have no business going to such an overtly religous function while on the public school clock.
2012-12-05 02:50:07 PM  
1 votes:

skullkrusher: Surool: skullkrusher: but showing the Charlie Brown special in a classroom would be ok?

No.

thank you for clarifying. Your posts were unclear on that.

It's the content of the production that's the issue. Going to a church for a play isn't a problem. My parish growing up had a theatre group that did all sorts of productions, not all religiously themed. There have been people in here who would be furious if their kids were taken on a field trip to see Death of a Salesman if the production happened in a church.


Thank you for not suggesting a bunch of off-topic scenarios to try to play the "gotcha" game.

Public Schools should not be promoting Islam, Judaism, Christianity or anything else. There are religious schools out there for that... Send your kids there.
2012-12-05 02:47:40 PM  
1 votes:

Epicedion: ...They're run by state employees and receive their operational funding directly from the government.


Which, in turn, puts them on the hook for obeying federal law. As long as the taxpayer is footing the bill in total or in part, the First Amendment must be heeded.
2012-12-05 02:43:24 PM  
1 votes:

chuckufarlie: Surool: skullkrusher: but showing the Charlie Brown special in a classroom would be ok?

No.

maybe they should sent the atheist kids to the cafeteria while the rest of the kids watch the program.


Here's a better solution.

Send your kids to catholic school, and leave out all religion out of public school, voluntary or otherwise.
2012-12-05 02:40:55 PM  
1 votes:

MooseUpNorth: Cythraul: Most atheists I know love Charlie Brown Christmas.

Sure. I'm not a fan of preachy at the best of times, and I think CBC was heavy handed, even for a christian piece. But one of the few truly great things that religion has inspired over the millenia is art. CBC is art. Having it voiced by age-realistic children (as technically flawed as it turned out to be) was utter genius. The kids are at least half of the piece's soul.

Religion is inspiring*. Unfortunately, art isn't the only thing it inspires, but, you know... Different thread.

/ *Although not so much anymore it seems. Religion-inspired art seems to be utter garbage lately.
// CBC may be the last of the greats.


I think you might be confusing correlation with causation. Simply because art was historically generated in a religiously permeated culture does not make religion the generator of art. You gave evidence against that by saying that current religion-inspired art is utter garbage, yet we still have an outpouring of art currently. That would be pretty strong evidence against religion being in any way inspiring of art. The only thing it proves is that religion at the time was pervasive and you were effectively required to include religion in your art if you wanted to do art and not be ostracized, or worse.
2012-12-05 02:40:21 PM  
1 votes:

chuckufarlie: Surool: skullkrusher: but showing the Charlie Brown special in a classroom would be ok?

No.

maybe they should sent the atheist kids to the cafeteria while the rest of the kids watch the program.


What about the Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim kids?

That type of thing where kids of other religions (or lack thereof) get singled out while christian kids get to watch a cartoon is exactly why we keep religions of of public schools.

I know you'd like to send your kids to a christian school, and they exist. So send them there.
2012-12-05 02:35:37 PM  
1 votes:

I drunk what: Farking Canuck: There is no way for the lack of belief in something to motivate actions.

[upload.wikimedia.org image 651x277]

what a lack of belief looks like

learn some words, then come back and go full retard on us

until then, i'd love to hear bronymedic's opinion about murdering innocent children...

are you for it or against it?


I'm sorry, did you just complain about people going full retard then ask someone how they felt about murdering innocent children?

Oh, god...the derp...THE DERP!!
2012-12-05 02:32:15 PM  
1 votes:

lordjupiter: Irony. U has it.


Sorry, I must have missed your point when I was looking out my window at the tax-exempt megachurch that's hosted anti-Obama sermons from the pulpit, which counsels its parishioners in the tax-deductability of church contributions, that enjoys regular visits on the campaign trail and otherwise from Republican political candidates and endorses them in return, busses parishioners to debates and town hall meetings, has a whole PR/advertising/marketing staff, and preaches prosperity theology from the pulpit...all while contributing heavily in money and time to conservative organizations and groups while doing very precious little in way of real charity. I was also thinking about how it's one of three in my town alone, and how there's a couple dozen of them in the major metropolitan area and sprawl.

You were saying something about greed and capitalism, and prosperity theology, co-opting Christianity?
2012-12-05 02:26:13 PM  
1 votes:

chewielouie: What a miserable existence it must be, to be an atheist . . . so sure and smugly confident in your beliefs, that you still cry and complain you are being excluded or ostracized by something like 'A Charlie Brown Christmas.' Where is the moaning about not having to work on December 25?


Were you replying to someone specific or just to atheists in general? My only concern here is the separation of church and state. The government should not promote any religion. Now that's not the same at all as denying or outlawing any religion or religions. Here it means that the school shouldn't use public funds to bus children to a church sponsored, pseudo-religious event. Doesn't matter what church. It wouldn't be right even if they asked every child what their religion was and crafted a personal, religious field trip for each one. US governments are not to be in the business of religion. That's what churches are for.
2012-12-05 02:25:42 PM  
1 votes:

BackwardsHatClub: Teknowaffle: minoridiot: Aren't field trips optional?

Doesn't matter. As soon as you put kids whose parents opted to have them put on a bus paid for by tax dollars, chaperone by teachers paid by tax dollars, and the kids are counted as present on a school day, and thus get federal funds, you are violating the first amendment.

Unless this is somehow establishing a state religion, no, no you're not. I went to public school and we made dradels and had a field trip to a synagogue around Hannukah along with the Christmas stuff. No one converted. It was educational and interesting. Denying these children an opportunity because a religious group hosts it makes no sense unless we are going to deny every group. Everyone has some sort of agenda, part of growing up is hearing all sides then making up your own mind.


It is a play that is about a religious holiday featuring direct quotations from the bible, hosted at a church. They sure are coming close to establishing a religion by giving ZERO time to other religions. A public school going to a christian church to show them religious dogma using state and federal funds is coming damn close to establish it.
2012-12-05 02:23:35 PM  
1 votes:

Mock26: Just as the actions of James Charles Kopp do not represent all christians, the actions of certain atheists do not represent all atheists.


Yeah, god forbid we damned dirty atheists insist on respecting and honoring the rule of law, and fostering in kids that same trait. It's not as if bussing a bunch of schoolkids during school hours on the school's, and therefore taxpayer's dime, to a Christian church to be proselytized to is against the law or anything.
2012-12-05 02:20:55 PM  
1 votes:

lordjupiter: Well, you would be wrong if you think PF has FULLY taken over all of Xtianity. Nitpick fail.


It's not my problem if you can't tell a difference between words and consequence. To listen to Christians, one would assume prosperity theology to be only a fringe belief practiced by a stark minority of Christians which has been long-disavowed by mainstream Christianity.

Yet, here we are.
2012-12-05 02:03:20 PM  
1 votes:
I demand that these self-proclaimed "Atheists" be relabeled as "Anti-theists."

/ These "atheists" make me look like a D-bag through association as I am an atheist.
// I am already a D-bag, especially on the intarwebs. I don't need the help.
2012-12-05 01:51:15 PM  
1 votes:

I should be in the kitchen: Please knock it off, fellow atheists, it's hard enough being openly atheist in this country without giving religious types more fodder to attack us with.


I agree with your request, but why do you feel you need to be "openly atheist?" I'm agnostic and if someone tries to engage me with something along the lines of "where do you go to church?," I simply say, "I'm sorry, but I don't discuss religion." This works for the mainstreamers. Some born-againers will start to "witness" and I just tell them I am not interested. I don't care if this offends them. Really, it's not worth the wasted effort to do otherwise. Religious belief or the lack thereof should be a very personal matter that is not discussed with strangers.
2012-12-05 01:23:55 PM  
1 votes:

Joe Blowme: GregInIndy: I'm thinking 90%+ of Christians would completely lose their f-in' minds if their kid's school put together a "voluntary" field trip to a mosque to see a really fun play about Ramadan and how just awesome Muhammad & Allah is, showed them around the mosque, maybe let them check out how they pray & stuff.

Thats like taking them to a kkk rally, they openly preach death to lots of different people. You might have had a point if you stopped at the fun play about a murdering rapist pedo...er i mean Mohamed....


hahah so you slander the prophet of a billion people but get butthurt over a play getting cancelled? This is why sane people shake their heads at you and your ilk. Happy Holidays you waste of human potential!
2012-12-05 01:21:25 PM  
1 votes:
i think religion should be taught in school

note that i didn't say any specific religion, or that children should be taught to believe in any of it, but religion is still a huge part of the human existence - especially so for this country, to avoid the subject is just replacing one ignorance with another

maybe have a religious studies class? or at least chill the fark out?
2012-12-05 01:17:32 PM  
1 votes:

BronyMedic: chewielouie: What a miserable existence it must be, to be an atheist . . . so sure and smugly confident in your beliefs, that you still cry and complain you are being excluded or ostracized by something like 'A Charlie Brown Christmas.' Where is the moaning about not having to work on December 25?

I know it's a troll, but I love working on Christmas.

Double the hourly rate for both Christmas and Christmas Eve. Perfect time for working 48 hour shifts.


This is so true for call center work especially. Not only the extra pay, but all your customers are nice to you because they pity you for working on Christmas.
2012-12-05 01:16:30 PM  
1 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: dkoucky: This is cultural censorship! I am not a Christian, however we cannot censor culture. Many plays, books, paintings, sculptures, and other works of art have religious themes; does that mean they should not be seen? Should we stop teaching Algebra because it was created by a Muslim and pushed forward through Islam? Is a class allowed to see paintings by Da Vinci as many of them contain Christian themes? This is the same concept of censoring school libraries because you disagree with the moral principals of a book.

Why can't the kids just watch the Charlie Brown movie at their school? Why does it HAVE to be at a church?


Because it's not the cartoon, its a play put on by churchmembers

/how many people read and UNDERSTOOD the damned article?
2012-12-05 01:12:02 PM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.


Because people are stupid?
2012-12-05 01:10:59 PM  
1 votes:

Joe Blowme: How to put a condom on a cucumber? CHECK
See Charlie Brown Xmas play? NOT


That actually makes a lot of sense. The condom on a cucumber is useful information whereas the Charlie brown christmas play and especially the christian messages contained in it isn't useful at all.
2012-12-05 12:56:33 PM  
1 votes:

skullkrusher: kronicfeld: Coco LaFemme: I think you're missing the point. He/She specifically told me that I would not be okay with this play being put on in a mosque or some other religious structure, and I asked them to point out where I said in this thread that the only reason I didn't think this was a big deal was because it as a Christian church. I'm not asking them to prove how life began, I'm asking them to tell me where I said something they clearly think I said.

Throwing a hissy fit is a sure way to win an argument on an internet message board.

she's already won - now she's just fighting off the desperate attempts to save face made by those she just laid the smackdown on


Which brings this to mind...

rationalwiki.org
2012-12-05 12:55:52 PM  
1 votes:

Rincewind53: Via Infinito: [draftsauronpac.files.wordpress.com image 850x548]

/oblig

I really hate that, because the first part gets all of those old gods wrong, based off that stupid "Christianity is just a copy of old religions" image that's been circling the internet for a while.

Hercules was not a god.
There is no evidence that Horus was born anywhere near December 25th
Sol Invictus and Mithra are the same damn thing
Zeus wasn't born on December 25th
Mithra wasn't born on December 25th.

Literally every part of that list of gods "born" during Saturnalia is wrong.


and let's not forget that christian's didn't hijack this holiday. people that were FORCED into christianity merged the christian bleliefs into their own so they could still pay homage to their gods while tricking the priests that they were believers.
2012-12-05 12:44:05 PM  
1 votes:
They play the fark out of it on TV and it is available for cheap on DVD. If you want to see it - WATCH IT AT HOME!
2012-12-05 12:40:23 PM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: Maybe those people need to pull the sticks out of their asses and lighten up...If I had kids, and the school took them to see a play where at one point in the play, a Bible verse was recited, you know what I'd do?


First, there's a difference between referencing or using excerpts from the Bible in a social, historical, or literature context, and proselytism. The first is permissible under the scope of the First Amendment; the second is not.

Second, it's not a matter of religion. It's a matter of understanding the rule of law, honoring it, obeying the law and fostering in kids and teens a respect for the rule of law. Our society has seen first to erect a wall of separation between the church and state, and moreover enumerate it in the highest law of the land, and the use of tax dollars for the purpose of proselytism is not permissible by the word of that highest law.

What lesson is being taught our kids when they experience firsthand proselytism in direct violation of the First Amendment? The highest law of the land itself can be ignored if you simply don't like it? That privileged classes are free to violate the law without accountability? That majorities are entitled to higher-order "rights" than minorities? That individuals ought not speak out when the law is being violated, by a privileged class, majority, or individual? That the only laws that matter are the ones that dictate and punish criminality?

That's especially pertinent within Christianity itself.

1 John 3:4-6: Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

Matthew 18:18-20: Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven. Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.

Romans 13:1-7: Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.


If Christians can't even obey the tenets of their own religion which instruct them to obey the laws of man, what credibility have they when it comes to discussing the laws of man?
2012-12-05 12:37:24 PM  
1 votes:
Recap for those not paying attention

Apparently the rights to put on a live performance of this particular play don't exist (as the play, in any official way, does not exist), per the Peanuts website, under "Special Requests." That means the church (or anyone) putting on the performance would be a huge copyright violation, and fines for that sort of thing are pretty severe.

I'm rather interested in what's going to happen now that this little church show has gotten some national attention.
2012-12-05 12:33:07 PM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: citoriman: Coco LaFemme: IAmRight: The My Little Pony Killer: Why can't the kids just watch the Charlie Brown movie at their school? Why does it HAVE to be at a church?

Because it's a play, not the movie? Because the church has a large auditorium with seating, and perhaps the school's auditorium is in use by students from another grade?
A lot of you seem to feel like churches are evil scary places, which is really odd, if you really don't believe in any of these higher powers. They're just buildings and they often have better facilities for public shows (since they have them at least every week) than most other secular buildings.

My sister went to a public high school. Her graduation ceremony was held at a local church for precisely that reason. It was larger than the school's gymnasium and could hold more bodies, since over 1000 students were graduating and that many guests would be crammed out on the street. The class valedictorian was Jewish, and her parents sat in front of my parents, and I didn't hear them complaining that their Jewish daughter was giving a speech about not slacking off in college while standing in a Baptist church.

Well, if you didn't hear her parents complain while sitting next to them during the ceremony, then clearly they were stoked. Case closed folks, nothing to see here.

I would think, and that's because this is a common sense thing here, I would think that if they had a problem with the graduation ceremony being held in a church different from their own religious beliefs, they wouldn't have let her go. I mean, I'm just guessing out loud here. If you're the kind of person to get offended by something like that, you're also the kind of person who would tell your child they're not going.


Because parents would NEVER swallow their pride to allow their daughter to serve as valedictorian. Do I really need to spell this out for you?
2012-12-05 12:23:09 PM  
1 votes:
You know what people are totally over-looking? The kids were probably just looking at this whole thing as a fun field trip to get them out of school and math for the day. Then the damn adults had to go and ruin it. Now they have to play dodge ball in gym and do extra reading to catch up on what they miss.

Damn adults.
2012-12-05 12:21:51 PM  
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: If your Atheism is so weak that your child will be converted by going to a church, then you've failed as a parent.


If my tax dollars are stretched so tight that the elementary kids are holding a garage sale to raise money for school supplies *and* the school pays to send them on a field trip to a church sponsored event, I will have failed as a tax-paying parent if I don't stop it or at least complain.
2012-12-05 12:21:00 PM  
1 votes:
Wait a second...

What are the chances this guy actually purchased the play's script and the rights to perform it, and isn't infringing on copyright and trademarks?
2012-12-05 12:15:56 PM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: IAmRight: The My Little Pony Killer: Why can't the kids just watch the Charlie Brown movie at their school? Why does it HAVE to be at a church?

Because it's a play, not the movie? Because the church has a large auditorium with seating, and perhaps the school's auditorium is in use by students from another grade?
A lot of you seem to feel like churches are evil scary places, which is really odd, if you really don't believe in any of these higher powers. They're just buildings and they often have better facilities for public shows (since they have them at least every week) than most other secular buildings.

My sister went to a public high school. Her graduation ceremony was held at a local church for precisely that reason. It was larger than the school's gymnasium and could hold more bodies, since over 1000 students were graduating and that many guests would be crammed out on the street. The class valedictorian was Jewish, and her parents sat in front of my parents, and I didn't hear them complaining that their Jewish daughter was giving a speech about not slacking off in college while standing in a Baptist church.


Well, if you didn't hear her parents complain while sitting next to them during the ceremony, then clearly they were stoked. Case closed folks, nothing to see here.
2012-12-05 12:13:54 PM  
1 votes:
AMERICA! Land of the Free, Home of the Brave!

...So long as there is ZERO chance that you could even REMOTELY come within 100 miles of offending even 1 person that either does, has or will live.
2012-12-05 12:12:07 PM  
1 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: So why couldn't the play have been put on during a time when kids AREN'T going to be in school?


Also, who was performing in the play if it was going on during school hours? Out-of-work adults? Kids skipping school?
2012-12-05 12:10:57 PM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: justtray: Coco LaFemme: The My Little Pony Killer: Coco LaFemme: And Constitutionally disallowed shiat is still Constitutionally disallowed.

I'm not incredibly smart or privileged. The last thing I am is privileged. My parents would get a kick out of that one.

No comment on the Constitutionality of the scenario from TFA?

It's not Constitutionally sound. I've never argued that it was. That doesn't mean that if I was a parent of one of the kids in this class, I would be bothered by it, because I don't think the mere act of putting a child in a church is indoctrinating them. I think a lot would need to be going on for me to think that the school was trying to force my child to be a Christian when they were not.

Good. Glad you agree then this shouldn't happen. Whether or not you personally would be bothered by it is irelevant. It's a clear violation of separation of church and state.

I look forward to the field trip about how Charlie Brown becomes a muslim terrorists because of the actions of the West on his people. I'm sure Fox News wouldn't oppose that because it's a teaching opportunity.

Just face it, you were wrong, and your opinion on the matter is based purely in religious dogma.

What religious dogma? I'm an atheist, and atheism is not a religion.


The dogma that it's okay because it's Christian, because it's the religion you're familiar with and surrounded by.

I even listed an example in my reply to make it more clear for you, yet you willfully ignore it and still can't comprehend. Typical bad troll.
2012-12-05 12:10:17 PM  
1 votes:

dkoucky: It was a play, might have been a minor pain in the ass to rebuild the set, reblock the actors, setup seating, and transport it to the school gymnasium.


Assuming the gymnasium was open.

/can see lots of Farkers have never worked in any kind of logistics
//what, stuff can easily just go anywhere - the real world is totally like the internet, you can just copy/paste stuff and it's at the new site!
2012-12-05 12:10:06 PM  
1 votes:

citoriman: xanadian: Rincewind53: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

Because they don't like children going to see school-sponsored plays in churches about the birth of Jesus?

....where parents can opt out of the field trip for whatever reasons (including them not wanting their children to potentially be indoctrinated into Christianity)? A. It's right in TFA that it's voluntary and B. field trips have been "optional" since day one.

Did you consider the fact that because of the atheists' religious beliefs, they are being forced to exclude themselves from a day of PUBLIC education?

By your logic, it would be OK to have public school taught in a church, by a priest, from the bible, because parents have the option to homeschool.


Atheists don't have religious beliefs. That's the definition of an atheist.
2012-12-05 12:09:29 PM  
1 votes:

hdhale:
If you are standing on your atheist soap box and refuse to allow a child to see "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown", it is my fondest hope that any children you have grow up to despise you, have you placed in a nursing home before your time because they decide you are "inconvenient", and that they be a bitter disappointment to you and refuse to visit you on Sundays because it's "church day".

/in other words, get the farking corn cob out of your ass...you should be so lucky to have kids that give a fark about people and put their friends before commercialism, whatever their belief in God, Jesus, or whatever holy spirit moves them


For someone supposedly championing the statement of love the movie contains, you're spewing an awful lot of hate.

You might want to get the log out of your own eye, first.
2012-12-05 12:08:45 PM  
1 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: dkoucky: This is cultural censorship! I am not a Christian, however we cannot censor culture. Many plays, books, paintings, sculptures, and other works of art have religious themes; does that mean they should not be seen? Should we stop teaching Algebra because it was created by a Muslim and pushed forward through Islam? Is a class allowed to see paintings by Da Vinci as many of them contain Christian themes? This is the same concept of censoring school libraries because you disagree with the moral principals of a book.

Why can't the kids just watch the Charlie Brown movie at their school? Why does it HAVE to be at a church?


It was a play, might have been a minor pain in the ass to rebuild the set, reblock the actors, setup seating, and transport it to the school gymnasium.
2012-12-05 12:08:23 PM  
1 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: So tell me, why can't the kids watch Charlie Brown at their school? Why MUST it be at the church?


BECAUSE THAT'S WHERE THE PLAY WAS BEING PUT ON.
2012-12-05 12:08:11 PM  
1 votes:

mizchief: had98c: mizchief: Further proof that Atheism is a religion. The opposite of love isn't hate; it's indifference. You cannot prove that god does not exist, but you base your belief on lack of evidence and fill the gap with faith.

The truly scientifically minded people don't make that leap of faith in either direction and simply live their lives based on facts and reason.

The most logical religion in my opinion is Christianity. All you have to do is say one prayer then you can pretty much do whatever you want and still get into heaven if such a place does actually exist.

4/10. You managed to get Pascal's Wager in there and also got the complete misrepresentation of atheism right, but it seemed too obvious. Good try.

The real difference between a religion and a viewpoint based on scientific evidence is if those who subscribe to that idea are willing to change their minds if new evidence is offered, or if they cling to their beliefs and are unwilling to modify their model to support that new evidence and try to deny the facts in front of their face like those who dismiss evolution and think the earth is 6000 years old.


Most atheists I know base their viewpoint on rules of evidence and rational thinking. So where does the religion part come in? Again the confusion seems to be stemming from a lack of understanding of what an atheist is.
2012-12-05 12:07:04 PM  
1 votes:

hdhale: If you are standing on your atheist soap box and refuse to allow a child to see "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown"


Those poor children who won't be able to catch it on TV one of the 700 times it'll be shown this month, or attend the church show themselves on their own time.

DaSwankOne: So you don't understand that when someone hits you in the face hard enough to blacken and swell your eye that it is commonly referred to as an "ass beating". This is probably because you are an over protected momma's boy precious snowflake that would have been much better off learning what it meant to get your ass whooped at some point in your life.


You are such an adorable internet badass. Come here, you.
2012-12-05 12:06:10 PM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: The My Little Pony Killer: Coco LaFemme: And Constitutionally disallowed shiat is still Constitutionally disallowed.

I'm not incredibly smart or privileged. The last thing I am is privileged. My parents would get a kick out of that one.

No comment on the Constitutionality of the scenario from TFA?

It's not Constitutionally sound. I've never argued that it was. That doesn't mean that if I was a parent of one of the kids in this class, I would be bothered by it, because I don't think the mere act of putting a child in a church is indoctrinating them. I think a lot would need to be going on for me to think that the school was trying to force my child to be a Christian when they were not.


So you're a-okay with public schools acting in ways that are unConstitutional so long as a certain groups feelings aren't hurt? Just because you're okay with the law of the nation being flaunted by religious groups doesn't mean that everybody else will be or should be okay with it as well. Just because this isn't your own personal view of indoctrination doesn't mean that that isn't exactly what was going on here.

So tell me, why can't the kids watch Charlie Brown at their school? Why MUST it be at the church?
2012-12-05 12:05:42 PM  
1 votes:

justtray: Coco LaFemme: The My Little Pony Killer: Coco LaFemme: And Constitutionally disallowed shiat is still Constitutionally disallowed.

I'm not incredibly smart or privileged. The last thing I am is privileged. My parents would get a kick out of that one.

No comment on the Constitutionality of the scenario from TFA?

It's not Constitutionally sound. I've never argued that it was. That doesn't mean that if I was a parent of one of the kids in this class, I would be bothered by it, because I don't think the mere act of putting a child in a church is indoctrinating them. I think a lot would need to be going on for me to think that the school was trying to force my child to be a Christian when they were not.

Good. Glad you agree then this shouldn't happen. Whether or not you personally would be bothered by it is irelevant. It's a clear violation of separation of church and state.

I look forward to the field trip about how Charlie Brown becomes a muslim terrorists because of the actions of the West on his people. I'm sure Fox News wouldn't oppose that because it's a teaching opportunity.

Just face it, you were wrong, and your opinion on the matter is based purely in religious dogma.


What religious dogma? I'm an atheist, and atheism is not a religion.
2012-12-05 12:05:23 PM  
1 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: FlashHarry: i'll be right with you at the barricades. but this charlie brown, for chrissakes (sorry, for FSM's sake). it's harmless.

It's Charlie Brown as shown at their local church under the guidance of a pastor.

Why can't the kids watch the movie at their school? Why does it HAVE to be at a church?


Because the church is the one putting on the performance. They scheduled a matinee performance for the field trip.
2012-12-05 12:04:56 PM  
1 votes:

The My Little Pony Killer: Why can't the kids just watch the Charlie Brown movie at their school? Why does it HAVE to be at a church?


Because it's a play, not the movie? Because the church has a large auditorium with seating, and perhaps the school's auditorium is in use by students from another grade?

A lot of you seem to feel like churches are evil scary places, which is really odd, if you really don't believe in any of these higher powers. They're just buildings and they often have better facilities for public shows (since they have them at least every week) than most other secular buildings.
2012-12-05 12:02:13 PM  
1 votes:

dopekitty74: I'm talking about the ones that go around protesting things like this that are harmless and fun.


Hahaha no. The Constitutionality of this action has been discussed up and down this thread. Harmless, my ass.
2012-12-05 12:00:41 PM  
1 votes:
I'd like to see a public school sponsored trip to a retelling of the Horus myth.
2012-12-05 11:59:58 AM  
1 votes:

Rincewind53: That is the entire basis for the people in this thread claiming that Mithra or Sol Invictus were "born" on the 25th, though why the Romans would think that the sun had a birthday is not entirely clear.


I always assumed that they probably celebrated it as a rebirth than an actual birthday and was probably a tradition long before the Romans. I imagine to the common folk with little or no understanding of science way back when, seeing the sun not rise quite so high as the day before starting after the summer solstice (talking about the northern hemisphere, naturally) could be a bit unnerving. Days start getting shorter, the temperature starts dropping, crops and plants stop growing and start to wither. Without having televisions to watch, they probably watched the sun pretty closely. By the time they were approaching the winter solstice, without the modern conveniences we enjoy today, life was probably getting pretty hard and people were probably feeling pretty discouraged. But once they noticed that the day after the solstice, the sun was a little higher and the day was a little longer I would think it may have encouraged them that it could only get better from there. They may have even thought, hey...why not celebrate? And since throughout ages, people seem to be drawn to attributing everything that happens to them to whatever invisible sky friend(s) that are popular at that time and place, it seems only natural that people might include them in this event.
2012-12-05 11:58:30 AM  
1 votes:

FlashHarry: i'll be right with you at the barricades. but this charlie brown, for chrissakes (sorry, for FSM's sake). it's harmless.


It's Charlie Brown as shown at their local church under the guidance of a pastor.

Why can't the kids watch the movie at their school? Why does it HAVE to be at a church?
2012-12-05 11:58:24 AM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: If someone punches you in the eye, what are you supposed to learn from that? I don't know, I've never been punched in the face before. Is there something learnable in that? Maybe. It could inspire you to learn self-defense so that you're not victimized again.


Are you being deliberately obtuse

www.scene-stealers.com

or are you just blind to figurative language?
2012-12-05 11:58:18 AM  
1 votes:

mizchief: Further proof that Atheism is a religion. The opposite of love isn't hate; it's indifference. You cannot prove that god does not exist, but you base your belief on lack of evidence and fill the gap with faith.

The truly scientifically minded people don't make that leap of faith in either direction and simply live their lives based on facts and reason.

The most logical religion in my opinion is Christianity. All you have to do is say one prayer then you can pretty much do whatever you want and still get into heaven if such a place does actually exist.


That's not how the burden of proof works, moron. Prove to me Santa Claus isn't real. Since you can't you have to give equal credance to the possibility he is.

See how stupid you are yet?
2012-12-05 11:56:48 AM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: Marcintosh: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

and this is why atheists hate religion - most adherents to any particular religion seem to be blissfully unaware that another view point exists and if they ARE aware the adherents are dismissive of that view point.

Think about the quandary of a muslim family might be in here - allow the kid to go and violate their religious feelings etc or deny their kid the trip and wonder if he'll be ostracized for it.

These two trivial points are just that - trivial points - there very well could be other far more important issues in play.

On the surface it seems harmless enough but it in fact introduces a complication into others lives that just doesn't need to be there and in fact shouldn't be there.

So yeah, cultural and religious ignorance sucks and in todays United States, shouldn't be there.

Plus, it's that crappy Chuck Brown schlock - I've had it up to here with that dead guys cartoons - bring back Prince Valium

I was raised Catholic. I no longer am, but that's beside the point. I was raised Catholic, and often was exposed to non-Catholic teachings, whether it was from visiting another faith's place of worship or learning about it in class. THAT'S THE POINT OF LEARNING. How can you claim to be devoutly religious, yet the mere exposure to someone else's faith can make you suddenly question your own? Attending a bar mitzvah when I wasn't Jewish didn't invalidate the fact that I was Catholic, and didn't "violate" anything that had to do with my Catholicism. I was learning about a tradition from another faith, and it was interesting.

Learning about other religions is not "state-sponsored indoctrination", nor should it be sneered upon as such.


I was raised in such a way as well.

The Muslim family is already exposed to a constant stream of Christianity in this country. More importantly, they are also exposed to the ideas and values of freedom. All the religious are. Seeing that the world didn't end when something their fathers and pastors were braying about seems to make them mellow as the generations pass.

We had at least two different courses in my public school (on in 7th grade and one as a senior) that were social studies courses that covered world religions. The guy that devoted an entire quarter to both Islam and Buddhism was shiat canned (albeit over an affair with an of age HS volleyball player), and the other guy was teaching a sociology class and presented one of the fairest discourses on world religions I've ever had, and that's including the course I had to take in college.

That is how you expose kids to the major world religions in a public school setting. Dispassionately and without proselytizing. The chance this field trip would be either is low.

We had a massive trip in 8th grade to DC where we also visited the National Cathedral, but we just toured. There was no service, no indoctrination, just a lot of questions about where the Darth Vader gargoyle was.
2012-12-05 11:56:21 AM  
1 votes:
.
I'm sure everyone upset about this will be OK with the next field trip to a mosque during Ramadan. I'm sure the local muslims put on a great show as well.
2012-12-05 11:51:00 AM  
1 votes:

mizchief: Further proof that Atheism is a religion. The opposite of love isn't hate; it's indifference. You cannot prove that god does not exist, but you base your belief on lack of evidence and fill the gap with faith.

The truly scientifically minded people don't make that leap of faith in either direction and simply live their lives based on facts and reason.

The most logical religion in my opinion is Christianity. All you have to do is say one prayer then you can pretty much do whatever you want and still get into heaven if such a place does actually exist.


4/10. You managed to get Pascal's Wager in there and also got the complete misrepresentation of atheism right, but it seemed too obvious. Good try.
2012-12-05 11:50:51 AM  
1 votes:

mizchief: Further proof that Atheism is a religion. The opposite of love isn't hate; it's indifference. You cannot prove that god does not exist, but you base your belief on lack of evidence and fill the gap with faith.

The truly scientifically minded people don't make that leap of faith in either direction and simply live their lives based on facts and reason.

The most logical religion in my opinion is Christianity. All you have to do is say one prayer then you can pretty much do whatever you want and still get into heaven if such a place does actually exist.


Oh shut up.
2012-12-05 11:50:32 AM  
1 votes:

sethen320: I believe the saying is "turn the other cheek".


I would not expect you to understand this because you are a hater, but actually the "turn the other cheek" phrase has been misinterpreted. The real meaning is more in line with the concept of not seeking vengeance rather than allowing oneself to be abused.
2012-12-05 11:50:22 AM  
1 votes:
The War on Christmas (TM)

The War on Christmas is a trademark of img1.fark.net 

/ well this should be clear of sensationalist nonsense
2012-12-05 11:50:11 AM  
1 votes:
I used to love this as a kid... back in the 70's when cartoons were few and far between.

Now... the voice acting makes my skin crawl.
2012-12-05 11:49:18 AM  
1 votes:

Lord Dimwit: doyner: "Students at Terry Elementary School had been planning to attend a school-day field trip to watch a stage version of the holiday classic - hosted by the church. The event was strictly voluntary and teachers sent home letters explaining the purpose of the trip."

Substitute "church" with "mosque" and regardless of the content of the performance the outrage would have been from Fox's base.

Non-story, folks. Carving out a few hours from a public school day to take kids to a church to watch a story about how Linus and Charlie Brown are touched by the birth of Christ is clearly over the line.

As someone who was non-religious in an extremely religious small town, not "volunteering" to go on this trip meant social suicide.


I doubt it was about social ostracizing. It's more likely about spending government money to pay for a visit to a church to see a film that recites a Bible passage along with an proselytizing that may go on which could be considered a violation of the First Amendment.
2012-12-05 11:48:56 AM  
1 votes:

Tommy Moo: Christmas has effectively become a secular holiday,


Christmas is still Christian. The secularists just don't get the benefits of eternal life like the believers do.
2012-12-05 11:48:51 AM  
1 votes:

Tommy Moo: I'm torn. As an atheist, my blood is always up against actual dangerous meshing of church and state, such as creationism in public schools. However Christmas has effectively become a secular holiday, whatever the etymology of it's name may be. Easter is named for a pagan deity, but no one doubts that it is Christian. Why can't it go the other way? If a bunch of kids want to decorate a tree and sing Jingle Bells, let them have at it. Even when we do reach a post-religion society, Christian roots in our culture will still always remain an important part of our history.


It's not about the roots of xmas, it's about the fact that they put on a play at a church that has a rather long and detailed recitation of religious scripture regarding the linchpin of that religion, it's savior figure's birth.

No one would have had any issue if they'd shown the 'movie' at school without the Linus Speech included.
2012-12-05 11:48:10 AM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: mgshamster: Coco LaFemme: mgshamster: Coco LaFemme: FloydA: doczoidberg:

And why isn't there just a word for someone who thinks the idea of a god is silly, but doesn't care to promote that thought to others? -- You know, like an apathetic atheist. An atheist who doesn't care what others do.

There should be a way to distinguish guys like me from those other jerks.

Apatheist

Hey, that's me too. I give not one rat's wet asshole about anyone else's religious beliefs, and I have no desire to try and change people's minds about what they believe. Just mind your own farking business.

For someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about what people believe and wishes them to just mind their own farking business, you sure do spend a lot of time trying convince them that they're wrong.

I don't spend any time trying to convince a Christian (or someone from any other faith) that they are wrong to be Christian, and as an atheist I am right. I have never done that once, either on Fark, or off it. I don't proselytize, nor do I have any desire to.

It wasn't the Christians to which I was referring.

That's funny, because I was talking about religion. I don't argue with people over matters of religious belief, because that's futile and a waste of time. Don't spin what I was saying to fit something else, then accuse me of doing the opposite. I do not try and change someone's mind about what they believe, re: religion. Now, if you think Pink Floyd sucks, I will try and change your mind about that.


I was talking about the other atheists (which, while not a religion, is still on the subject of religions). Wow, you really are this obtuse, aren't you?
2012-12-05 11:47:48 AM  
1 votes:
This is cultural censorship! I am not a Christian, however we cannot censor culture. Many plays, books, paintings, sculptures, and other works of art have religious themes; does that mean they should not be seen? Should we stop teaching Algebra because it was created by a Muslim and pushed forward through Islam? Is a class allowed to see paintings by Da Vinci as many of them contain Christian themes? This is the same concept of censoring school libraries because you disagree with the moral principals of a book.
hej [TotalFark]
2012-12-05 11:46:48 AM  
1 votes:
"We're not waging a war," said LeeWood Thomas, a spokesman for the group. "We're basically calling a foul against the separation of church and state."

That's some serious outrage there, subbs.
2012-12-05 11:46:32 AM  
1 votes:

MilesTeg: Many "atheists" are really just anti-Christian religious bigots. Calling yourself an "atheist" just makes it sound better.

Their entire goal is not being comfortable in their own beliefs but to cause as much angst as possible for those they disagree with.


Ah, the "They're all terrorists bent on destroying our freedom and liberty" argument. Haven't seen that used in a while, thanks for the nostalgia!
2012-12-05 11:45:47 AM  
1 votes:
I'm torn. As an atheist, my blood is always up against actual dangerous meshing of church and state, such as creationism in public schools. However Christmas has effectively become a secular holiday, whatever the etymology of it's name may be. Easter is named for a pagan deity, but no one doubts that it is Christian. Why can't it go the other way? If a bunch of kids want to decorate a tree and sing Jingle Bells, let them have at it. Even when we do reach a post-religion society, Christian roots in our culture will still always remain an important part of our history.
2012-12-05 11:45:43 AM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: I don't live in a tolerant area. Where I live and where I grew up are not the same thing. I grew up in Chicago, IL and currently live in Redneckville, NC. And no, seeing as I was a Catholic and now are not, I don't know what it's like to be Muslim. Or any other faith. I do however, know what it was like for my friends growing up who were not Christians, and they had a rough road. Not because of their specific faith, but just because they weren't Christians. It's ugly and unnecessary, and not a quality about some people in this country I like.


So you do know what it's like, because you've seen people go through it, and yet you still think it's ok for even more non-christian kids to become ostracized by being a non-christian faith. Alright then.

/Obviously I was referring to where you when to high school; are you seriously this obtuse, or are you just trolling?
2012-12-05 11:45:32 AM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: I don't proselytize, nor do I have any desire to.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

*takes deep breath"

AHJAHHAHAHAHAHA.

What the hell have you been doing up and down this thread then?
2012-12-05 11:43:26 AM  
1 votes:

DaCaptain19: The atheist f*cks are more annoying than the pastor of Westboro Baptist!


I don't believe you.
2012-12-05 11:42:17 AM  
1 votes:

mgshamster: Coco LaFemme: Marcintosh: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

and this is why atheists hate religion - most adherents to any particular religion seem to be blissfully unaware that another view point exists and if they ARE aware the adherents are dismissive of that view point.

Think about the quandary of a muslim family might be in here - allow the kid to go and violate their religious feelings etc or deny their kid the trip and wonder if he'll be ostracized for it.

These two trivial points are just that - trivial points - there very well could be other far more important issues in play.

On the surface it seems harmless enough but it in fact introduces a complication into others lives that just doesn't need to be there and in fact shouldn't be there.

So yeah, cultural and religious ignorance sucks and in todays United States, shouldn't be there.

Plus, it's that crappy Chuck Brown schlock - I've had it up to here with that dead guys cartoons - bring back Prince Valium

I was raised Catholic. I no longer am, but that's beside the point. I was raised Catholic, and often was exposed to non-Catholic teachings, whether it was from visiting another faith's place of worship or learning about it in class. THAT'S THE POINT OF LEARNING. How can you claim to be devoutly religious, yet the mere exposure to someone else's faith can make you suddenly question your own? Attending a bar mitzvah when I wasn't Jewish didn't invalidate the fact that I was Catholic, and didn't "violate" anything that had to do with my Catholicism. I was learning about a tradition from another faith, and it was interesting.

Learning about other religions is not "state-sponsored indoctrination", nor should it be sneered upon as such.

You must not know what it's like to be a Muslim in a primarily christian area. Here: educate yourself (audio, 33 min, transcript available).

/Consider yourself fortunate to live in an area a little bit more tolerant than the norm.


I don't live in a tolerant area. Where I live and where I grew up are not the same thing. I grew up in Chicago, IL and currently live in Redneckville, NC. And no, seeing as I was a Catholic and now are not, I don't know what it's like to be Muslim. Or any other faith. I do however, know what it was like for my friends growing up who were not Christians, and they had a rough road. Not because of their specific faith, but just because they weren't Christians. It's ugly and unnecessary, and not a quality about some people in this country I like.

Epicedion: Coco LaFemme: I was raised Catholic. I no longer am, but that's beside the point. I was raised Catholic, and often was exposed to non-Catholic teachings, whether it was from visiting another faith's place of worship or learning about it in class. THAT'S THE POINT OF LEARNING.

Yes, we get it, you're incredibly smart and privileged and every experience you could possibly have is ultimately spinnable into some positive life-affirming wondrous examination of the self.

Over here in reality, uncomfortable shiat is often just uncomfortable. And Constitutionally disallowed shiat is still Constitutionally disallowed.


I'm not incredibly smart or privileged. The last thing I am is privileged. My parents would get a kick out of that one.
2012-12-05 11:41:33 AM  
1 votes:

Gentoolive: minoridiot: Aren't field trips optional?

Yes, but this is textbook libtard atheist. If they don't like something, they must make sure NOONE else can make their own decissions.


Your lack of proper spelling gives you away as an uneducated hick, and the fundie approach seals the deal. Go beat your Bible over in the Middle East where the rest of the bigots, moral police, and religious nuts live.
2012-12-05 11:41:17 AM  
1 votes:
I don't entirely agree with the complaint in question, but seriously guys, if this is the worst oppression "Militant Atheists" are capable of, I'm less than terrorized.
2012-12-05 11:41:10 AM  
1 votes:

jaybeezey: Rincewind53: Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.

Because they don't like children going to see school-sponsored plays in churches about the birth of Jesus?

If you don't want your athiest hell bound child to go then don't sign the consent form.


Yeahno. If the school wanted to take children to see Billy Graham give a sermon at a megachurch, they can't just claim it's voluntary. Doesn't work that way.
2012-12-05 11:40:54 AM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people hate atheists.


The important thing here is to lump all atheists in with the extreme ones. You know, just like all religious people want to jihad themselves with a vest full of dynamite.
2012-12-05 11:40:31 AM  
1 votes:

R.A.Danny: Cythraul: R.A.Danny: I hope and pray that your hearts are turned back to the Lord. It isn't too late.

Sorry. I signed Satan's exclusivity deal.

So you DO believe?


You're brilliant. I will use that one in the future.

Damn atheists, acting like their nonbelief is a religion. I know some atheists that are more evangelical than any Christians I know. "None of the above" does not get equal representation.
2012-12-05 11:39:43 AM  
1 votes:
Thorak

Smartest

Funniest

2012-12-05 11:22:10 AM

kerryclendenon: Sounds like derp on all sides. The War on Christmas, and Fox's War on the War on Christmas. As long as all eyes are open and minds as well that this is a time of celebration of many cultures - pagans, Christians, Jews, etc, and all cultures are given equal weight in telling their stories, I am fine with it. I think the Atheist militance against traditions is annoying and makes me embarrassed to be an atheist. And Fox News's attempt at emphasizing their butt hurt over this is also embarrassing. Both sides need to chill out.

Separation of Church and State.

This is not a complicated or new issue. Those saying it's not a big deal and "atheists" should chill out are just completely missing the point; this has nothing to do with atheism, this has to do with the state sponsoring one faith over others. It's a constitutional breach. There's an issue here, but that issue is this; why do these Christians hate the Constitution and thus America?

A: I do not see this as an underwriting of a particular religion, or as an establishment of a national religion, because a local school, run but a local authority, decided to take kids who voluntarily agreed to go, to a play, where one of the actors accurately quotes a book, in describing the reason for the very holiday that a certain group of people follow. Christmas is a holiday that celebrates the birth of Jesus, a character in a series of religious stories.

B: there is nothing of the bigger picture in this article that I saw. Was this a social studies field trip? A look at culture? Was an overt ploy to wash kids in the blood of christ? Were there other opportunities to see Native American re-enactments of religious ceremonies? Who knows? This is not a reason to get your panties in a bundle.

When the derpy Christian right wants to overturn national law because some little tribe of people - surrounded by people who hated them - said it was bad - that's something to get mad about. Arguing over a school, run by a locality, transporting volunteers to a play, is going way overboard.
2012-12-05 11:38:14 AM  
1 votes:

xanadian: Pertifly: xanadian: Someone forgot to tell these "freethinkers" that they do not have a Constitutional right to not be offended.

I'm an atheist and love the Charlie Brown holiday specials. I actually came in here to poo-poo the article, because Atheist outrage goes overboard sometimes (sometimes, a lot of the time).

But having a public school shuttle kids to a church to watch it... that's different than just watching it in the privacy of your own home. And it's illegal.

Valid, and I said so earlier, after I processed the whole article with my brain cell. Doesn't help that the very first paragraph says the group protested the PLAY and didn't mention that they were protesting the CHURCH for hosting the play. TFA initially said they just had a problem with the play.

Once again, though, this is FAUX NEWS, and they spin it to win it.




One of my favorite FOX moves was when they made all that noise about the "Ground Zero Mosque" being built near ground zero when there was already one within 4 blocks. Also the one being built was financed by Saudi Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal... who happened to be the second largest News Corp. (FOX's parent company) stockholder.

The station has a collectively dim view of muslims so it wasn't necessarily ironic that they were hating on one of their biggest financiers who's family is close with their favorite Presidential dynasty that runs a deeply religiously conservative country that provides the 2nd most of our oil imports. 

But I thought it was funny.
2012-12-05 11:38:11 AM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: mgshamster: Coco LaFemme: FloydA: doczoidberg:

And why isn't there just a word for someone who thinks the idea of a god is silly, but doesn't care to promote that thought to others? -- You know, like an apathetic atheist. An atheist who doesn't care what others do.

There should be a way to distinguish guys like me from those other jerks.

Apatheist

Hey, that's me too. I give not one rat's wet asshole about anyone else's religious beliefs, and I have no desire to try and change people's minds about what they believe. Just mind your own farking business.

For someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about what people believe and wishes them to just mind their own farking business, you sure do spend a lot of time trying convince them that they're wrong.

I don't spend any time trying to convince a Christian (or someone from any other faith) that they are wrong to be Christian, and as an atheist I am right. I have never done that once, either on Fark, or off it. I don't proselytize, nor do I have any desire to.


It wasn't the Christians to which I was referring.
2012-12-05 11:37:08 AM  
1 votes:

Coco LaFemme: ......and this is why people religious zealots hate atheists.

2012-12-05 11:34:29 AM  
1 votes:
I wonder if this same parent that complained would have gone on how wonderfully culturally enlightening this field trip was if the play was about the Muslim, Buddhist or other than Christian religion?
2012-12-05 11:34:02 AM  
1 votes:
Oh, and for some more historical basis on why claiming Mithra was born on the 25th is silly:

In the 100 ADs, Mithra was often referred to as "Deus Sol Invictus Mithras", or "The Invincible Sun God Mithras." As a result, he is often confused with Sol Invictus (as I did earlier), who was the official Sun God of the Roman Empire starting about 175 years later. From there, people grab onto the fact that there was a ceremony held in 354 AD, on December 25th, entitled "Natalis Invicti", which was a celebration of Sol Invictus. "Natalis Invicti" can possibly be translated as "The birth of the Invicible", or it could simply imply that a temple was being dedicated. That is it. That is the entire basis for the people in this thread claiming that Mithra or Sol Invictus were "born" on the 25th, though why the Romans would think that the sun had a birthday is not entirely clear.
2012-12-05 11:32:52 AM  
1 votes:

WhippingBoy: If your Atheism is so weak that your child will be converted by going to a church, then you've failed as a parent.


That is most definitely not the point.
2012-12-05 11:32:07 AM  
1 votes:

kronicfeld: The latest atheist outrage? People watching A public school taking children to church to watch a stage performance of "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown," which has a direct recitation from the bible in its seminal scene


Teknowaffle: As much as I love Merry Christmas Charlie Brown (despite being an evil atheist), a public school should never be going even voluntarily to a performance hosted by a church/mosque/synagogue.


This and that. I'm as atheist as they come, but this weekend the wife and I went and picked out a tree and we watched the Charlie Brown Christmas Special while decorating it. Nothing wrong with that. Until you are a public school using public funds. As was also mentioned, if they had gone to a mosque the farsenews crowd would have been losing their minds.
2012-12-05 11:30:46 AM  
1 votes:

HotWingConspiracy: This fits the grand religious tradition of knowingly stepping over the line, then crying persecution when they're pushed back.


Excellent point.
2012-12-05 11:29:46 AM  
1 votes:

xanadian: On a semi-related note, I wonder how the freethinkers' group would've reacted if the Charlie Brown play were held at a public amphitheater, as opposed to a church? Or, even IN the school itself?


This is the exact problem I have with the entire scenario.

Why can't the kids just watch the damn movie at their school? Why do they HAVE to be bussed out to a church for the viewing?
2012-12-05 11:27:58 AM  
1 votes:

doyner: "Students at Terry Elementary School had been planning to attend a school-day field trip to watch a stage version of the holiday classic - hosted by the church. The event was strictly voluntary and teachers sent home letters explaining the purpose of the trip."

Substitute "church" with "mosque" and regardless of the content of the performance the outrage would have been from Fox's base.

Non-story, folks. Carving out a few hours from a public school day to take kids to a church to watch a story about how Linus and Charlie Brown are touched by the birth of Christ is clearly over the line.


As someone who was non-religious in an extremely religious small town, not "volunteering" to go on this trip meant social suicide.
2012-12-05 11:27:28 AM  
1 votes:
That reminds me, it's time to start saying "Merry Christmas" to everyone, just to piss off the uber-PC idiots. Christmas is a really nice tradition. It has it's roots in religion (several of them) but so what? Many things in our culture have their roots in religion. That doesn't mean we should abandon them and start saying stupid shiat like "Happy Holidays".

/agnostic
//firmly against organized religion
///Merry Christmas!
2012-12-05 11:26:37 AM  
1 votes:
If your Atheism is so weak that your child will be converted by going to a church, then you've failed as a parent.
2012-12-05 11:26:33 AM  
1 votes:
Militant atheists and those people waving bibles and yelling at me on street corners should both be sentenced to Thunderdome.
2012-12-05 11:23:45 AM  
1 votes:
As an atheist I have no issues with Christmas. It's a great holiday and it has transcended past Christianity and has become more of a cultural event in our society.

I think it would serve atheists well to embrace Christmas. It would send the message to the droves of Christians who don't really believe in their religion but think being an atheist is too far out there, that not believing in god doesn't mean you have to quit things you enjoy. They can have the exact life they have now without believing in fairy tales.
2012-12-05 11:22:09 AM  
1 votes:

The Why Not Guy: I'm an agnostic leaning towards atheist, and nothing - NOTHING - would make me happier than if the United States were to become a Christian nation. The catch is I mean Christian as in actually following the teachings of Jesus Christ - patience, forgiveness, tolerance, charity, love - not just hating homos and Muslims. I'd even settle for following those 10 commandments people are so anxious to hang in courtrooms.


The catch as you know is that the people who are loudest about the US being a Christian nation are usually the ones that follow the exact polar opposite of every single thing Christ supposedly said. It's very Alanis Morrisette.
2012-12-05 11:22:00 AM  
1 votes:

This text is now purple: BronyMedic: dopekitty74: Gah! So farking tired of militant atheists giving us regular non-interfering in other people's fun atheists a bad name.

[madmikesamerica.com image 475x336]

Just look at that Atheist drinking his coffee. It's so EVIL.

Ask the Tibetans how much they enjoy actual militant atheism.


I'm pretty sure they're suffering from totalitarianism, not militant atheist. Unless you seriously believe that China is still Communist.
2012-12-05 11:21:46 AM  
1 votes:
i26.photobucket.com

/second time today I get to post this
2012-12-05 11:21:29 AM  
1 votes:

kerryclendenon: The War on Christmas, and Fox's War on the War on Christmas


I prefer this:

t1.gstatic.com
2012-12-05 11:21:06 AM  
1 votes:

xanadian: Gunny Highway: [25.media.tumblr.com image 500x675]

A Christmas story we can all enjoy

As long as they don't make it into a movie. Hellboy 2 sucked.


I am an unapologetic Mignola fan so I blindly enjoyed both movies.
2012-12-05 11:19:01 AM  
1 votes:

Pertifly: xanadian: Someone forgot to tell these "freethinkers" that they do not have a Constitutional right to not be offended.

I'm an atheist and love the Charlie Brown holiday specials. I actually came in here to poo-poo the article, because Atheist outrage goes overboard sometimes (sometimes, a lot of the time).

But having a public school shuttle kids to a church to watch it... that's different than just watching it in the privacy of your own home. And it's illegal.


Valid, and I said so earlier, after I processed the whole article with my brain cell. Doesn't help that the very first paragraph says the group protested the PLAY and didn't mention that they were protesting the CHURCH for hosting the play. TFA initially said they just had a problem with the play.

Once again, though, this is FAUX NEWS, and they spin it to win it.
2012-12-05 11:18:33 AM  
1 votes:
mediumlarge.files.wordpress.com
2012-12-05 11:17:41 AM  
1 votes:
Meh, my agnostic outrage is that the networks have edited out portions of the show in order to fit in more adverts to appease the false god of holiday overconsumerism.. So what they show today isn't the same as what I grew up with.

I should go see if the original unedited version is out on the torrents.
2012-12-05 11:17:41 AM  
1 votes:
This concerned parent may very well want to pull their child from school altogether. This play holds nothing on the amount of nonsense spewed by other children that are religious. My parents were raised in very religious homes but they never did any of that with me. How did I learn about Heaven, Hell, God, Jesus, etc etc? Other kids in school. I learned that if I believed in God then when I died I would go to Heaven and that anything I wanted to do I could do or anyone I wanted to talk to I could talk to. I went to bible camp, I went to church with some friends when I stayed at their houses but guess what if anything it just gave me a greater understanding of various religious practices and prominent religious figures. I wouldn't say that any of the material I was exposed to would have harmed me in anyway, most of it was rather inspirational stories about doing good for humanity.

/Still a non-believer
2012-12-05 11:16:56 AM  
1 votes:

Babwa Wawa: I guess very few people chose to read the article completely. The church cancelled the event voluntarily, then decided to call the media to talk about how they're being oppressed.

The school board and principal were all for going forward with the field trip.

HELP! HELP! I'M BEING OPPRESSED!


They interviewed representatives from the church, the school district and the Arkansas Society of Freethinkers. Where exactly does it say that it was the church that initially called the media?
2012-12-05 11:16:13 AM  
1 votes:
A lot of Peanuts stuff is really depressing. The music is awesome, though. The Merry Christmas Charlie Brown soundtrack is always on the stereo Christmas morning.

The only thing about Peanuts that ever made me angry was the New Years one. Linus knows that Charlie Brown has always loved the little redhaired girl, but moves in on her anyway. Bros before hos, Linus, bros before hos.
2012-12-05 11:15:51 AM  
1 votes:

JackieRabbit: HindiDiscoMonster: [cache.ohinternet.com image 309x282]

/what Arkansas Society of Freethinkers may look like...

I was thinking the same thing. One would think that a society of free-thinkers would have no problem with someone else's religious beliefs. I guess we are just free to think their way.


winner winner chicken dinner
2012-12-05 11:14:56 AM  
1 votes:

busy chillin': doyner:
Substitute "church" with "mosque" and regardless of the content of the performance the outrage would have been from Fox's base.

nailed it.

A teacher should troll the f*ck out of America and take a class to a mosque for whatever type of program of mosque would put on.


I think taking kids (of an older age than just elementary school) to various temples/churches/etc is a good idea. Explain to them that some people believe that way. Explain where the origins of the beliefs came from and the historical aspects of it. You'd almost be treating churches as museums that way. Hell, even bring up such topics as the Crusades and their impact on the middle ages.

...

Guess it would be cheaper to just talk about it in class, though. Who wants to spend all that public money on field trips IN THIS ECONOMY!??
2012-12-05 11:13:57 AM  
1 votes:

HindiDiscoMonster: [cache.ohinternet.com image 309x282]

/what Arkansas Society of Freethinkers may look like...


I was thinking the same thing. One would think that a society of free-thinkers would have no problem with someone else's religious beliefs. I guess we are just free to think their way.
2012-12-05 11:12:44 AM  
1 votes:

AbbeySomeone: OMG I feel so silly. This thread has shown me that Charlie Brown is merely a tool of the Christian agenda.


Charlie Brown in general? Not really.

The "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown" movie? Of course it farking is, it's in the title. It's explicitly religious.
2012-12-05 11:12:40 AM  
1 votes:

dopekitty74: Gah! So farking tired of militant atheists giving us regular non-interfering in other people's fun atheists a bad name.


madmikesamerica.com

Just look at that Atheist drinking his coffee. It's so EVIL.
2012-12-05 11:11:44 AM  
1 votes:

doczoidberg: I'm an atheist, and this shiat annoys the hell out of me.
Why do atheists have to act like such a-holes?

And why isn't there just a word for someone who thinks the idea of a god is silly, but doesn't care to promote that thought to others? -- You know, like an apathetic atheist. An atheist who doesn't care what others do.

There should be a way to distinguish guys like me from those other jerks.


You do realize there are plenty of Jews, Christians, and so on and so forth who also don't actively promote their religion but hold them as private beliefs right? Doesn't make them any less Jew/Christian/etc.

I'm proud to be an atheist. Doesn't mean I don't disagree with some people's approaches to atheism.

Trivia Jockey: Moreover, the headline is really misleading. I doubt anyone cares that the kids were going to watch a Charlie Brown Christmas. I think it had more to do with a field trip and took public school students to church.

If I was a parent, I'd prefer my kid's school not take him/her to church. But I admit this ranks kinda low on my list of things to get upset about.


So long as the kids are also taken to a synagogue or a mosque or where ever, I wouldn't really care.
2012-12-05 11:11:08 AM  
1 votes:

R.A.Danny: I hope and pray that your hearts are turned back to the Lord. It isn't too late.


Which Lord would that be? There are thousands to choose from. Maybe the states should set up some sort of Lord Exchange, where people should see the costs and benefits?
2012-12-05 11:10:38 AM  
1 votes:
cache.ohinternet.com

/what Arkansas Society of Freethinkers may look like...
2012-12-05 11:09:58 AM  
1 votes:

Rincewind53: Hercules was not a god.
There is no evidence that Horus was born anywhere near December 25th
Sol Invictus and Mithra are the same damn thing
Zeus wasn't born on December 25th
Mithra wasn't born on December 25th.


Neither was Jesus Christ. December 25th ties into the solstice traditions, not into any particular deity's birth.
2012-12-05 11:09:38 AM  
1 votes:

doyner: Substitute "church" with "mosque" and regardless of the content of the performance the outrage would have been from Fox's base.


Absolutely. It would have had them crying foul for days.
2012-12-05 11:09:27 AM  
1 votes:

Bf+: [i.imgur.com image 320x240]


Laughter OL. That's great.

/BTW, Peanuts sucks.
2012-12-05 11:08:28 AM  
1 votes:
I do think its a bit religious for a public school field trip. Still, I wouldn't really care if my kid went.

Hell, I'm an atheist and I OWN a DVD of the Charlie Brown Christmas. It's too cute!
2012-12-05 11:07:37 AM  
1 votes:

Teknowaffle: As much as I love Merry Christmas Charlie Brown (despite being an evil atheist), a public school should never be going even voluntarily to a performance hosted by a church/mosque/synagogue.


Yeah, because God atheists forbid kids learn about culture.

Didn't some school take kids to a mosque earlier this year - you know, to learn about culture?

I have know problem with either field trip.
2012-12-05 11:06:56 AM  
1 votes:

t3knomanser: xanadian: It's right in TFA that it's voluntary and B. field trips have been "optional" since day one.

And why aren't children of other faiths offered a similar field trip? Why is one group given an advantage that other groups are not?


No such information is given in TFA. I mean, this IS Faux News, after all. As long as there's *some* level of education about other cultures and religions, you cannot say the school is favoring one particular religion. I expect there's no trips to a mosque for Ramadan because it's harder to justify spending the school budget for a minority interest. ...which opens up a whole DIFFERENT can of worms. Or to allocate time for ALL the potential sources of cultural enrichment? I mean, schools are cutting MUSIC because of their budgets. With that having been said, why do field trips at all unless it's to the museum, I guess...

On a semi-related note, I wonder how the freethinkers' group would've reacted if the Charlie Brown play were held at a public amphitheater, as opposed to a church? Or, even IN the school itself? Hell of a lot of gray areas, depending on what your definition of a "separation of church and state" is. Is it based off of the institution where the play is held? Is it the play at all, despite the fact that it's a traditional play with historical religious overtones (a product of its time)? And, of course, is there any education being done on all the OTHER aspects of Christmas/Yuletide/etc, as well as things like Ramadan and Hanukkah?

Note I didn't include Kwanzaa. What the hell is up with that shiat, anyway!??
2012-12-05 11:05:28 AM  
1 votes:

doyner: Rincewind53: Zeus wasn't born on December 25th
Mithra wasn't born on December 25th.

And niether was Jesus, so we're consistent.


Boom. Headshot.

Pointing out flaws while ignoring the obvious flaw right next to you is part of the problem.

/another flaw, Linus didn't ask for "Lights?" to go down
//I demand consistency, dammit!
2012-12-05 11:02:57 AM  
1 votes:
Also:

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com

Jeremiah 10

Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
2012-12-05 11:00:16 AM  
1 votes:
Recipe for Christians Are Under Attack Attention Whoring:

1. Be a church
2. Sponsor a showing of a Children's cartoon that is about Christmas. Make sure it has a biblical passage
3. Schedule the showing at a public elementary school
4. Make sure the event is highly publicized
5. When some whacked atheist group expresses their butthurt OUTRAGE, cancel the event and contact the media (AWing begets AWing)
6. Profit
2012-12-05 10:58:11 AM  
1 votes:

kronicfeld: The latest atheist outrage? People watching A public school taking children to church to watch a stage performance of "Merry Christmas Charlie Brown," which has a direct recitation from the bible in its seminal scene


It's not a bad headline, all it needs is a little love.
2012-12-05 10:57:58 AM  
1 votes:
the cartoon has a pretty heavyhanded christian message
2012-12-05 10:35:11 AM  
1 votes:

Rincewind53: R.A.Danny: Rincewind53: Oh, so government sponsorship of a particular religion is okay as long as it's fun!

Down to about 4/10

I rate your attempt to classify me as a troll at about a 2/10.


Perhaps you are genuinely wounded at the mere mention of Jesus. Mea culpa.
2012-12-05 10:23:21 AM  
1 votes:

t3knomanser: Coco LaFemme: You're kidding, right? THIS WAS VOLUNTARY. As in, not required.

And where was the voluntary activity for the Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc? Sure, the Christians get an optional event that they can enjoy, but nobody else gets an option? So one group gets to go have a day-long field trip to a church, to participate in a religious event, while everybody else sits around and does worksheets for the day? And you believe this is fair?


Oh please. Feeble bullsh*t and weak attempt. Charlie Brown can be enjoyed by anyone without a stick up their ass.
I will give you a generous 7/10.
2012-12-05 10:00:57 AM  
1 votes:

t3knomanser: Coco LaFemme: We're never going to be a secular society, completely devoid of religious worship.

This exists to protect believers, too. Does this school have no Jews? Muslims? Hindus? Is it right for the school to discriminate against them? Sure, it's an atheist organization that's doing the complaining, but by what right does the school marginalize religious believers that aren't Christian?


How is this marginalizing them? Is it telling them they're less than human or not as good as Christians? Is it devaluing their religious beliefs and/or mocking them?
2012-12-05 09:56:45 AM  
1 votes:

kronicfeld: The school couldn't say, "Hey, we're taking a 'field trip' to 'watch' Catholic Mass, but you can opt out if you don't want to go" and have it pass muster.


The Bible, the Quran, and other religious writings have been studied in public schools for years, with full legal backing. They may certainly bring kids to religious ceremonies in the name of education.
2012-12-05 09:51:44 AM  
1 votes:

R.A.Danny: I hope and pray that your hearts are turned back to the Lord. It isn't too late.


Truth. The All-Father needs more followers. "To You, Dread Lord, I dedicate this battle-field, this harvest of Men!"
2012-12-05 09:45:21 AM  
1 votes:
Aren't field trips optional?
 
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