Dafatone: sprawl15: Dafatone: ***snip***
Dafatone: But trying to set out a guide on what "good" is is kind of a hopeless prospect, and seems to be going on in this thread at least a little.
Dafatone: But every game criticism thread turns into "What's good and what's not good about games X, Y, and Z, and whether or not these games are good as a whole."
sprawl15: Dafatone: But trying to set out a guide on what "good" is is kind of a hopeless prospect, and seems to be going on in this thread at least a little.Not really. There's inherent contradictions everywhere, and no universal rule for games. But you can pull out some of the systems and criticize them - you can say that Portal's puzzling wasn't very good as a puzzle and you'd be right. And that's a very meaningful criticism, because it expresses some of the fundamental nature of the game. If you want to play games solely for their puzzling, then it may not be the one for you. But if you like story and atmosphere, it's a cute and fun game that isn't too challenging.The problem is that most people cannot generally take that kind of focused criticism because of their emotional investment. SS2 is one of my favorite games, and I could write an essay on shiat it does wrong. That's because I try to keep my subjective enjoyment separate from my objective analysis of game mechanics and design. Most people don't do that, and that's why if you say Portal's puzzles were easy and thus it's not a very good puzzle game, people take it personally and respond accordingly.Dafatone: But every game criticism thread turns into "What's good and what's not good about games X, Y, and Z, and whether or not these games are good as a whole."Well, here's ultimately the difference. I can say "I like Minecraft because I like Lego". No amount of argument can change that, because it's a subjective argument. If I said "I like Minecraft because it is difficult and has a deep crafting system", that's not a subjective argument because it's drawing comparisons to other games and those comparisons can be flawed. You can bring up games that are more difficult and/or have a deeper crafting system and rebut that basis for liking the game.But at the same time, if my only contribution to a Minecraft discussion is 'I like Lego', it's not really a discussion. It's just me saying something.
Dafatone: I'd just like to have conversations about stuff other than game quality along the lines of games-as-art.
sprawl15: In short, it's not that the art in a game irrelevant, it's that focusing on it alone is actually detrimental to the analysis of a game.
dj_spanmaster: TypoFlyspray: Zork was wonderful, but it wasn't Art. It was Literature.You say that like Art and Literature are mutually exclusive. Let me introduce you to:
TypoFlyspray: Now, if video games are or can be art (and at this point I really can't argue that they're not any more) they are most certainly (like film) art in the sense of a union of visual and Literary arts with the additional complication of a technological dimension that is less present in literature, static visual art, or film, in that the mechanics of play are a critical aspect that is all but missing in the others.
Vash's Apprentice: ProfessorOhki: Mike_LowELL: Vash's Apprentice: Ah, the Master Race strikes again!And what does that mean, exactly? "You're critical of the topic, so I don't care for your input?"It means they consider you an elitist for thinking Gears of Halo: Black Maddens might not be one of gaming's finest achievements.[4.bp.blogspot.com image 550x391]/Arcade offers an experience console and PC can't match//PC and console allow for a depth of story arcade can't reasonably deliverAs opposed to Doom Reskinned 9999?[2.bp.blogspot.com image 505x424]
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