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(Uproxx)   New York Museum of Modern Art declares 14 video games as important art   (uproxx.com) divider line 259
    More: Spiffy, Museum of Modern Art, contemporary art, SimCity, art  
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8067 clicks; posted to Geek » on 05 Dec 2012 at 9:05 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-05 12:15:10 PM  

Mike_LowELL: Art's purpose is to entertain. Not to be "emotional and shiat".


No.
 
2012-12-05 12:15:12 PM  

wippit: I'm actually a little upset Minecraft isn't in now, and is on the earmarked list. The sheer amount of pictures from that game available on the internet may start to rival porn.


by extension, photoshop is one of the most artistic games in history
 
2012-12-05 12:16:25 PM  

Antimatter: Videogames are no different then film really, it's just they let the viewer have some control over how the story is presented, rather then being passively taking in the experience.


Video games are ENTIRELY different than film. In a film because the person experiencing the game isn't just passively viewing it; he or she is actually interacting with it and causing the story to happen.

If you had a film where you watched a one-note protagonist with a giant sword and a pair of guns annihilate hundreds of similar-looking villains using the same set of animations and juggles over and over and over, you'd be bored to tears. But in a game, you'd say, "Wow, Devil May Cry is really fun" and you'd ignore the fact that the story doesn't make a lot of sense or that you wind up replaying the same moments repeatedly just to progress on to the next section.

And this leads to a different desired experience. Most video gamers would rather complete repetitive actions over and over than sit through a long non-interactive sequence or ride on a Half-Life-style tramway over which they have little control. Cutscenes and non-interactive sequences are fine for a brief break in the action, but there's a reason gamers tend to dread the lengthy ones.
 
2012-12-05 12:16:38 PM  
farm4.static.flickr.com

Wip3out for PlayStation.

3.bp.blogspot.com

Featuring artwork from Designers Republic and some kick-ass futuristic tunes.
 
2012-12-05 12:18:14 PM  

Tyrone Slothrop: Mike_LowELL: Art's purpose is to entertain. Not to be "emotional and shiat".

No.


Question:

Supreme Commander trailer.

True or false: Supreme Commander demonstrates skill and craft in the pursuit of creative expression.

Or...

True or false: Supreme Commander is art.
 
2012-12-05 12:19:56 PM  
Nice to see ThatGameCompany recognized, but, as others have said, I am surprised they didn't go for Journey instead.


/so pretty
//and that soundtrack
///oh god. the soundtrack
 
2012-12-05 12:24:13 PM  

moothemagiccow: Cythraul: They have to hire writers, concept artists, 3D modelers and so on. Sounds pretty artistic to me.

Next we'll be inducting cranes and wrenches into art museums.


Ulgh, jeez, you're a moronic asshole. Everything you put on Fark is garbage. Or at least everything that I've noticed. I'm just going to put you on my asshole list.
 
2012-12-05 12:26:46 PM  

PsyLord: Whar Final Fantasy 7, Whar?


The Museum of Bad Art is in Somerville, MA.
(appropriately enough)
 
2012-12-05 12:29:30 PM  

Mike_LowELL: frepnog: ah, so you are broken then. I see.

What a half-assed response. "You don't think a short, unchallenging puzzle game is good, so I don't have to respond to any of your criticisms of another short, unchallenging puzzle game."


that was in response to portal. If you are a gamer and didn't like portal, Imma hafta call you broken. It is as good as modern gaming gets. I can see how someone wouldn't like Limbo, other than the atmosphere it is a pretty much by the numbers game, but the atmosphere really makes it amazing.
 
2012-12-05 12:30:51 PM  
machinarium.net
 
2012-12-05 12:32:42 PM  

sprawl15: If they include Bio-Shock over System Shock 2, every one of them deserves a cockpunch.


As a better game? Sure, System Shock 2 wins.
As art? Bioshock wins.
 
2012-12-05 12:37:37 PM  

Frank Anthrax: [machinarium.net image 411x554]


The parallels with Grim Fandango are strong.
 
2012-12-05 12:39:17 PM  

frepnog: Mike_LowELL: frepnog: ah, so you are broken then. I see.

What a half-assed response. "You don't think a short, unchallenging puzzle game is good, so I don't have to respond to any of your criticisms of another short, unchallenging puzzle game."

that was in response to portal. If you are a gamer and didn't like portal, Imma hafta call you broken. It is as good as modern gaming gets. I can see how someone wouldn't like Limbo, other than the atmosphere it is a pretty much by the numbers game, but the atmosphere really makes it amazing.


He fancies himself as some sort of authority on video games. Have you seen his awful blog?
 
2012-12-05 12:39:44 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: sprawl15: If they include Bio-Shock over System Shock 2, every one of them deserves a cockpunch.

As a better game? Sure, System Shock 2 wins.
As art? Bioshock wins.


yeah, this. As much as I liked SS2 back in the day, the graphics really make it hard to play these days. Just a butt-ugly game by modern standards.

swotti.starmedia.com
 
2012-12-05 12:40:02 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: sprawl15: If they include Bio-Shock over System Shock 2, every one of them deserves a cockpunch.

As a better game? Sure, System Shock 2 wins.
As art? Bioshock wins.


The only category Bioshock would win in would be raw graphics.
 
2012-12-05 12:45:17 PM  

frepnog: that was in response to portal. If you are a gamer and didn't like portal, Imma hafta call you broken. It is as good as modern gaming gets. I can see how someone wouldn't like Limbo, other than the atmosphere it is a pretty much by the numbers game, but the atmosphere really makes it amazing.


It's a three-hour game that parodies linear level design while simultaneously embracing it and uses a single weapon that was, in the glory days of the arena shooter, one means of transportation within a more complex, satisfying construct for the first-person shooter. I'll keep pointing back to the Translocator as made famous within the scope of Unreal Tournament deathmatch. Which wouldn't be a problem if the puzzles in Portal were difficult, but they're not. (The first time I played through the game, I finished the advanced add-on courses thinking they were the final levels within the game as originally designed.) Now, if Portal had done something analogous to Super Mario World, where you could skip large portions of the game by playing really cool experimental-style levels (all while GLAdOS's dialogue is changed accordingly), I'd be with you. But as-is, I ain't buying it.

Cubicle Jockey: As a better game? Sure, System Shock 2 wins.
As art? Bioshock wins.


The better art is the one that is the better game.

Mentalpatient87: He fancies himself as some sort of authority on video games. Have you seen his awful blog?


What did I say that you disagree with? Or is this one of those "I disagree you but I don't quite have the knowledge of the topic to refute your opinions, so I'll try to paint you as a smarmy elitist" conversations?
 
2012-12-05 12:46:26 PM  
Zork was wonderful, but it wasn't Art. It was Literature.

As for the rest, glad to see Tempest on there, and I suppose Pac Man has to be. I'd say Pitfall needs to be there as well, as the progenitor of a whole host of games.

But my experience with video games ends with Sega Genesis, so I leave the rest to others, beyond saying that I am only recently inclined to consider any videogames as art. The form has matured enough that I have occasionally mistaken a video game ad for a movie trailer. That being the case, if film is art then so are video games, and if the current state of the art (so to speak) is art, then the progenitors are primitive art.
 
2012-12-05 12:46:28 PM  

Mike_LowELL: Art's purpose is to entertain.



Mind you, I'm of the sort that thinks every Rothko in existence should be burned, but I don't see how anyone could agree with your statement.

Corinthian Columns. Manuscript Illumination. Crenulations. Calligraphy.
All artistic. Entertainment? I don't see it.

Could you please clarify what you mean by entertain?
 
2012-12-05 12:47:55 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: Could you please clarify what you mean by entertain?


Cod and Halo are the most artistic thing you could imagine. Same with American Idol.
 
2012-12-05 12:49:02 PM  

sprawl15: Cubicle Jockey: sprawl15: If they include Bio-Shock over System Shock 2, every one of them deserves a cockpunch.

As a better game? Sure, System Shock 2 wins.
As art? Bioshock wins.

The only category Bioshock would win in would be raw graphics.


And music. And level design. And general writing (though not story).
 
2012-12-05 12:56:24 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: And music.


lolwut

SS2 is still one of the best examples of using sound in a game to effect.

Cubicle Jockey: And level design.


The Rickenbacker levels were the worst in SS2 by a pretty large margin, and they were still on par with Bioshock.

Cubicle Jockey: And general writing (though not story).


This is pretty farking meaningless.
 
2012-12-05 12:57:26 PM  

Mike_LowELL: Which wouldn't be a problem if the puzzles in Portal were difficult, but they're not. (The first time I played through the game, I finished the advanced add-on courses thinking they were the final levels within the game as originally designed.)


bullshiat.

Mike_LowELL: Cubicle Jockey: As a better game? Sure, System Shock 2 wins.
As art? Bioshock wins.

The better art is the one that is the better game.


By modern standards, Bioshock IS a better game. Yes, SS2 was the precursor and did much of the same things but it, on the whole, is hard to play now because the graphics really hold it down. If it was released as a downloadable game on the Xbox live market place, it might sell a few copies but no one would seriously play it (see - Bungie's Marathon games). So - since Bioshock is essentially the same game but with amazing graphics, it is easy to see why it will hold up better and linger longer in people's memories.

/loved SS2. Not saying anything really bad about the game. But it didn't sell when it was new, the graphics are horrid, and it really is a game best left in the past.

Mike_LowELL: Mentalpatient87: He fancies himself as some sort of authority on video games. Have you seen his awful blog?

What did I say that you disagree with? Or is this one of those "I disagree you but I don't quite have the knowledge of the topic to refute your opinions, so I'll try to paint you as a smarmy elitist" conversations?


Yeah, I get you. You are smarter than the rest of us. It is just video games, dude - it is all subjective.

except portal. dude, seriously, if you didn't like portal you really should take a break from gaming, you are far too jaded.
 
2012-12-05 12:57:43 PM  

frepnog: yeah, this. As much as I liked SS2 back in the day, the graphics really make it hard to play these days. Just a butt-ugly game by modern standards.


That is what makes it so hard for me to get into the original Deus Ex. I picked up Deus Ex HR on steam with the other two games in the series, and after going through HR I decided to try out the first game. I'm sure the game has cool moments, and all, but I just had a hard time getting into it after the graphics from HR. I suppose that's what I get for switching to console gaming during the late 90s early 00's.
 
2012-12-05 01:02:24 PM  

Dingleberry Dickwad: frepnog: yeah, this. As much as I liked SS2 back in the day, the graphics really make it hard to play these days. Just a butt-ugly game by modern standards.

That is what makes it so hard for me to get into the original Deus Ex. I picked up Deus Ex HR on steam with the other two games in the series, and after going through HR I decided to try out the first game. I'm sure the game has cool moments, and all, but I just had a hard time getting into it after the graphics from HR. I suppose that's what I get for switching to console gaming during the late 90s early 00's.


hell, Deus Ex was butt-ugly when it was NEW. It is also far over-rated. They took something fairly simple (a FPS game) and obfuscated it to the point to where it just wasn't much fun to play. These days it is just a chore to try to play because it is so butt-ugly that you simply can't get immersed in it. As an experiment and a story it was good, as a game it was pretty damned broken. Invisible War, as hated by die-hard fans of the first game as it is, was a far better game - and the PC version can be modded to look pretty good so it remains fairly playable.
 
2012-12-05 01:03:08 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: Corinthian Columns. Manuscript Illumination. Crenulations. Calligraphy.
All artistic. Entertainment? I don't see it.

Could you please clarify what you mean by entertain?


Provide pleasure, whatever that pleasure may entail. Emotional attachment and message are one means to pleasure. They are not the end-all be-all to art. Keep in mind that what you listed also demonstrates a high degree of craft, which is also important. You can certainly have an appreciation for the craft, the reasons for the craft's existence, and the technical skill that went into making it. By comparison, a Rothko or a Pollack are nothing, other than a scam designed to make rich people feel like they've purchased high art. They're paint smeared on a canvas. That's the kind of mindset I'm going after, the "IT'S SO DEEP" audience. That's how you end up with tripe like Journey being Game of the Year candidates.
 
2012-12-05 01:04:40 PM  

frepnog: since Bioshock is essentially the same game but with amazing graphics


Fascinating.
 
2012-12-05 01:07:46 PM  

sprawl15: SS2 is still one of the best examples of using sound in a game to effect.


Sound Effects or Music? I specified the latter.

sprawl15: This is pretty farking meaningless.


General writing is what made Tarantino and Whedon famous. I would also say that general writing is what made Bioware so popular.
 
2012-12-05 01:08:54 PM  

Mentalpatient87: frepnog: Mike_LowELL: frepnog: ah, so you are broken then. I see.

What a half-assed response. "You don't think a short, unchallenging puzzle game is good, so I don't have to respond to any of your criticisms of another short, unchallenging puzzle game."

that was in response to portal. If you are a gamer and didn't like portal, Imma hafta call you broken. It is as good as modern gaming gets. I can see how someone wouldn't like Limbo, other than the atmosphere it is a pretty much by the numbers game, but the atmosphere really makes it amazing.

He fancies himself as some sort of authority on video games. Have you seen his awful blog?


If not, it will be linked shortly.
 
2012-12-05 01:10:33 PM  

Mike_LowELL:
What did I say that you disagree with? Or is this one of those "I disagree you but I don't quite have the knowledge of the topic to refute your opinions, so I'll try to paint you as a smarmy elitist" conversations?


Hey, he's just calling a spade a spade.
 
2012-12-05 01:11:13 PM  

Dimensio: The Secret of Monkey Island is a glaring omission.

/The Smithsonian knew to include that in their exhibit.


My uncle made the graphical verb-object UI for the lucasarts games.

No explanation as of yet as to where the gasoline is for the chainsaw.
 
2012-12-05 01:11:39 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: sprawl15: SS2 is still one of the best examples of using sound in a game to effect.

Sound Effects or Music? I specified the latter.


Music is a sound effect, when used properly. Setting into the faster paced electronica when shiat hits the fan or completely stopping any music at certain points to jack up your paranoia have huge effects on your interaction. Bioshock without music loses nothing, except a neat soundtrack. SS2 without music loses a key part of its atmosphere.

Cubicle Jockey: sprawl15: This is pretty farking meaningless.

General writing is what made Tarantino and Whedon famous.


So you don't know the definition either, then.

What non-plot related writing was there in Bioshock?
 
2012-12-05 01:13:59 PM  

sprawl15: frepnog: since Bioshock is essentially the same game but with amazing graphics

Fascinating.


how so? it is 100 percent the truth.
 
2012-12-05 01:15:59 PM  

SkylineRecords: kumanoki: It's a completely subjective list, but my top 5 games of all time are:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 256x256]

[ecx.images-amazon.com image 300x300]

[cdn2.pitchfork.com image 640x330]

[images1.wikia.nocookie.net image 230x332]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x333]

My list is;

1. Batman: The Arkham Series
2. Super Mario 64
3. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
4. MLB: The Show series
5. Portal


Madden 2007
Madden 2008
Madden 2009
Madden 2010
Madden 2011 Kidding
 
2012-12-05 01:17:30 PM  

sprawl15: Bioshock without music loses nothing, except a neat soundtrack.


wow. you really have no idea what you are talking about. Bioshock uses music as Hollywood movies use it - to create tension, to give the all clear, to create atmosphere. Turning off the music in Bioshock would be like turning off the score when watching Empire Strikes Back - you would rob it of much of the feeling.
 
2012-12-05 01:23:17 PM  

frepnog: sprawl15: frepnog: since Bioshock is essentially the same game but with amazing graphics

Fascinating.

how so? it is 100 percent the truth.


Aside from every part of that being false, yeah. Even the bit about Bioshock's graphics being amazing - everything was slathered in a layer of slime. They weren't terrible, but it wasn't some mind blowing new plateau of graphics design.

Even general concepts - Bioshock's gameplay had very little horror or survival elements in it. It had no real consistent antagonists behind most of the issues that you ran into. The skill/stat systems were grossly simplified, taking away significant equipment choice and generally making your choices ones of convenience rather than access (for example, the difference between having hack 6 in SS2 and hack 0 are profound compared to having all hacking plasmids or no hacking plasmids). The core mechanic of Big Daddy fights as a method of improving a character was awful; the fights were incredibly boring and the moral choice boiled down to "which ending do I want?" because the rewards were, again, ones of convenience.

frepnog: Bioshock uses music as Hollywood movies use it


Which is why it's inferior in its use of music.

Video games are interactive. Using the music as just a part of a visual set piece completely misses the point of music.
 
2012-12-05 01:24:14 PM  

Mike_LowELL: moothemagiccow: Next we'll be inducting cranes and wrenches into art museums.

Once again, anything can be artistic. It's a matter of whether it's "art" (i.e. good art) or "not art" (i.e. bad art).


hey someone had to design that thing... with a creative solution to a problem with a functional design... anything created has some artistic quality to it...
 
2012-12-05 01:28:59 PM  

sprawl15: Even general concepts - Bioshock's gameplay had very little horror or survival elements in it. It had no real consistent antagonists behind most of the issues that you ran into. The skill/stat systems were grossly simplified, taking away significant equipment choice and generally making your choices ones of convenience rather than access (for example, the difference between having hack 6 in SS2 and hack 0 are profound compared to having all hacking plasmids or no hacking plasmids). The core mechanic of Big Daddy fights as a method of improving a character was awful; the fights were incredibly boring and the moral choice boiled down to "which ending do I want?" because the rewards were, again, ones of convenience.


I agree with everything you say here as I didn't enjoy the game because of these, but the game was very good at environment design and style direction which help the argument that its art. Looked pretty good, picked a style and period, made it under water. Scenery and the theatrics (including voice acting) were the only things I liked about the game.
 
2012-12-05 01:32:04 PM  

sprawl15: Music is a sound effect, when used properly. Setting into the faster paced electronica when shiat hits the fan or completely stopping any music at certain points to jack up your paranoia have huge effects on your interaction. Bioshock without music loses nothing, except a neat soundtrack. SS2 without music loses a key part of its atmosphere.


You are arguing Sound Design, which was not my assertion.



sprawl15: So you don't know the definition either, then.

What definition did I profer?


What non-plot related writing was there in Bioshock?

Nearly all of the recordings. The writers were able to create several characters that you never met in game, yet you ended up having great sympathy for them.

 
2012-12-05 01:36:15 PM  

sprawl15: frepnog: sprawl15: frepnog: since Bioshock is essentially the same game but with amazing graphics

Fascinating.

how so? it is 100 percent the truth.

Aside from every part of that being false, yeah. Even the bit about Bioshock's graphics being amazing - everything was slathered in a layer of slime. They weren't terrible, but it wasn't some mind blowing new plateau of graphics design.

/you had seen nothing like it before, a realized underwater city that looked completely believable and was totally immersive. yep, that sure did suck.

Even general concepts - Bioshock's gameplay had very little horror or survival elements in it. It had no real consistent antagonists behind most of the issues that you ran into. The skill/stat systems were grossly simplified, taking away significant equipment choice and generally making your choices ones of convenience rather than access (for example, the difference between having hack 6 in SS2 and hack 0 are profound compared to having all hacking plasmids or no hacking plasmids). The core mechanic of Big Daddy fights as a method of improving a character was awful; the fights were incredibly boring and the moral choice boiled down to "which ending do I want?" because the rewards were, again, ones of convenience.

/i get it. SS2 ruled and nothing will ever come close. Have it your way.

frepnog: Bioshock uses music as Hollywood movies use it

Which is why it's inferior in its use of music.

Video games are interactive. Using the music as just a part of a visual set piece completely misses the point of music.


You DO realize that in gaming, while today's games DO use music like movies, it is far more interactive and tends to organically change depending on what you are doing in game, and not just a part of the story? That it is dynamic? For instance - in Skyrim, you are just moseying along, picking flowers, the music is just that light background stuff, and then a dragon flies overhead and notices you. the score transitions to dramatic fight music that crescendo's JUST as you happen to kill the thing... and then fades back to light background music. It turns a completely free-roaming experience into an on-the-fly cinematic experience. Bioshock does this as well.
 
2012-12-05 01:36:22 PM  

frepnog: bullshiat.


It took me two-and-a-half hours to beat the game on the first try and I had very little interruption. That doesn't strike me as difficult. The Lost Vikings used much the same system (where you had to accomplish the puzzles without dying) and was better at it twenty years ago.

frepnog: /loved SS2. Not saying anything really bad about the game. But it didn't sell when it was new, the graphics are horrid, and it really is a game best left in the past.


I played System Shock 2 after playing BioShock and I enjoyed the former far, far more. The graphics may be extremely primitive, but System Shock 2 builds on its primitive-looking atmosphere through proper use of difficulty and mechanics. There is absolutely no place in System Shock 2 that you can take a break from the action. You always have to be active. Everything is more terrifying when you're running out of ammo and a Cyborg Midwife appears from the other side of the wall. BioShock is way too easy to have consequence, which greatly detracts from the atmosphere, which is otherwise interesting to look at and move about.

frepnog: Yeah, I get you. You are smarter than the rest of us. It is just video games, dude - it is all subjective.

except portal. dude, seriously, if you didn't like portal you really should take a break from gaming, you are far too jaded.


Normally, when you say someone's opinion is "awful", you explain why. And just to note: You said that Deus Ex is overrated. I could characterize you as jaded, but I don't, because the last thing that videogame criticism needs is more marginalization of dissenting opinion. There are people out there, just like me, who think Portal is not a great game. I didn't think the second one was great, either. That's perfectly fine. But because you have a commercial game journalism outlet which is absolutely awful at their job, you end up with critical consensus on just about everything (except most of the games that are too hard for them, like fighting games, shoot 'em ups, and old-style first-person shooters). I believe there are a ton of games which have been incorrectly manifested as the genre's best. Subsequently, there are a ton of games I really, really like that not many other people have played, and there are games which I enjoyed much, much more than the general consensus indicated (Duke Nukem Forever, Kane and Lynch 2). Not to say that I thought those games were good or even great, but I'm hardly jaded. I just reject the consensus popular notion of what a great game is.

Vash's Apprentice: Hey, he's just calling a spade a spade.


Anyone who thinks that well-crafted, entertaining videogames are not artistic (i.e. "demonstrate creative expression") because they do not fulfill some nebulous criteria for emotional enlightenment have no knowledge of the topic. I mean, what can I say? Anyone who would state that Journey, or Braid, or Limbo are more worthy of preservation and demonstration than say, Metroid Prime or Grand Theft Auto III, are just wrong.

Virulency: hey someone had to design that thing... with a creative solution to a problem with a functional design... anything created has some artistic quality to it...


http://www.difusaocultural.ufrgs.br/adminmalestar/documentos/arquivo/ 0 0%20the%20piracy%20of%20art.pdf


In Simulations, Baudrillard suggested that Disneyland's only function was to conceal the fact that the entire country was a huge theme park. Similarly art has become a front, a showcase, a deterrence machine meant to hide the fact that the whole society is transaestheticized. Art has definitely lost its privilege. By the same token it can be found everywhere.

Pretty much, yeah.
 
2012-12-05 01:39:26 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: You are arguing Sound Design, which was not my assertion.


If you're going to argue that Bioshock had better music because it didn't contribute to its sound design, I don't think you'd ever be able to be persuaded off that shipwreck.

I suppose you could simply be arguing that Bioshock had a higher fidelity of music. I don't know (or care) about the bitrates, but I would concede that point since it would likely be true.

Cubicle Jockey: Nearly all of the recordings. The writers were able to create several characters that you never met in game, yet you ended up having great sympathy for them.


...and if you're going to use the recordings as an example of something Bioshock did that SS2 didn't do, I'm just going to have to assume you never played SS2.

Hint: that entire thing was stolen from SS2, and stolen poorly.
 
2012-12-05 01:43:27 PM  
Bit disappointed that Half Life 2 hasn't made the list (yet). I also expected Dear Esther to be mentioned somewhere on there as well, shame that it's not.
 
2012-12-05 01:47:16 PM  

frepnog: SS2 ruled and nothing will ever come close.


Absolutely not. It had some pretty significant flaws - the balance of the weapons made some choices (like going for energy weapons) grossly inferior. The later levels were pretty horribly designed, the graphics were a couple years dated even at release, and the last boss fight was atrocious.

Maybe you don't realize how it works, but when you're talking about a set of two games (Bioshock and SS2) one of them will be the best of that set. That doesn't mean it is the best of every possible set. That's not how things work.

If you'd like to dispute any of what I said instead of just crying into your hands, feel free. I'm interested in hearing it.

frepnog: You DO realize that in gaming, while today's games DO use music like movies, it is far more interactive and tends to organically change depending on what you are doing in game, and not just a part of the story? That it is dynamic?


Considering I just explained to you that this is how SS2 does it, yes, I do realize that. It also does it far better than most modern games - Bioshock and Skyrim included - because the way it handles music is as an aspect of its entire sound design, rather than just a cue for visual effects. The music dropping to zero has the same effect as hearing a midwife off in the distance; it presses you to increase your paranoia. That's a wholly different approach - and a far more artistic one - than kicking in high tempo music when a dragon script is triggered, or an orchestral swell when Rapture is revealed.

Sure, the latter feels fancy, and it's not BAD design, but like I keep saying, we're talking about the difference between good and great. Not talking about BESTEST EVAR and WORSTEST EVAR.
 
2012-12-05 01:49:52 PM  
i would add missile command to that list
 
2012-12-05 01:58:43 PM  

sprawl15: If you're going to argue that Bioshock had better music because it didn't contribute to its sound design, I don't think you'd ever be able to be persuaded off that shipwreck.


I said: The music is better in Bioshock.
You said: The sound design is better in SS2.
There is no conflict in these statements, which is why the Acedemy Awards has separate awards for Score and Sound Editing.

I don't understand your stubborness on this subject.


sprawl15: ...and if you're going to use the recordings as an example of something Bioshock did that SS2 didn't do, I'm just going to have to assume you never played SS2.


I am saying that Bioshock did it better. Why did you ask me what non-plot writing was in the game if you were already aware of it?
 
2012-12-05 01:58:47 PM  
144 comments in and no Katamari love!?

List would win if that were the only game on it. I can feel it, I can feel the cosmos!
 
2012-12-05 02:04:12 PM  

parazen: 144 comments in and no Katamari love!?

List would win if that were the only game on it. I can feel it, I can feel the cosmos!


It was mentioned... I thought that would be a controversial decision but apparently not. it definitely did the WTF? JUST GO WITH IT style and art direction to a T. Best new years was when me and my friends got the original one for christmas and we got drunk and took turns playing it.
 
2012-12-05 02:07:41 PM  
And just to elaborate on what I said to frepnog:

Mike_LowELL: Normally, when you say someone's opinion is "awful", you explain why.


I was referring to the other commenter, not you.
 
2012-12-05 02:08:27 PM  

Cubicle Jockey: I said: The music is better in Bioshock.
You said: The sound design is better in SS2.


I said the music is better in SS2, and that a big reason it is better is because the music is woven throughout the sound design to enhance interactivity rather than simply being a visual cue for set pieces. It's also better as raw music, but we're talking about the artistic value of a game as relating to perfection of the craft.

Cubicle Jockey: I am saying that Bioshock did it better.


It didn't. Not by far. A big part of that was Bioshock simply using them as exposition, while SS2 used it as an element of the horror. You knew that Bioshock was ruined and that there weren't any survivors beyond the few you were already interacting with from nearly the onset. In SS2, that wasn't the case because the events were still ongoing - the people you were listening to may still be alive at the time of the recording (and in some cases actually were). It served as a driving factor rather than just a history lesson.

Cubicle Jockey: Why did you ask me what non-plot writing was in the game if you were already aware of it?


Because that writing is all story related, and I assumed you were smart enough to understood that. It all serves to build up the story - the background, the elements, the movement of pieces beyond the players' purview. It's 100% story.
 
2012-12-05 02:22:25 PM  

TypoFlyspray: Zork was wonderful, but it wasn't Art. It was Literature.


You say that like Art and Literature are mutually exclusive. Let me introduce you to:

Literary art.
1.bp.blogspot.com

Art with words:
img825.imageshack.us

Which is not to say that all literature is art, though this is:
img818.imageshack.us
 
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