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(Uproxx)   New York Museum of Modern Art declares 14 video games as important art   (uproxx.com) divider line 259
    More: Spiffy, Museum of Modern Art, contemporary art, SimCity, art  
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8067 clicks; posted to Geek » on 05 Dec 2012 at 9:05 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-05 10:28:09 AM

frepnog: doglover: Cythraul: But almost any game these days that has a decent budget should probably be considered 'art.'

False.

GTA 4 had a huge budget and was an amazing game at the time, but it wasn't groundbreaking or meaningful, it was just a game.

if you took no meaning from Niko Bellic's tragic tale, then I simply don't know how to talk to you. The story told in GTA4 is amazingly well thought out and is absolutely art. It is also an amazing game NOW. No other sandbox style game has bettered it, and the only thing out that comes close is Red Dead Redemption, amazingly enough a game made by the same folks.

/i know people still claim that San Andreas was better. It is not. Most of the crap you do in that game was tedious and not fun in any way. It told a great story but the GAME is hard to play after playing GTA4. Man, you just can't go back to primitive 3d graphics.

//many SNES games hold up better than many PS\PS2 level games.


I have always thought GTA stories were overwrought self important melodramas told by poor storytellers who thought they were masters of the craft.

Fun games though, and I do think the humor works, but dramatic masterpieces they are not.
 
2012-12-05 10:30:44 AM
Canabalt? As a work of art? That's the dumbest thing I've heard this week, and I spend time on the Politics tab.
 
2012-12-05 10:31:20 AM
No Deus Ex, either...
 
2012-12-05 10:32:13 AM

frepnog: doglover: Cythraul: But almost any game these days that has a decent budget should probably be considered 'art.'

False.

GTA 4 had a huge budget and was an amazing game at the time, but it wasn't groundbreaking or meaningful, it was just a game.

if you took no meaning from Niko Bellic's tragic tale, then I simply don't know how to talk to you. The story told in GTA4 is amazingly well thought out and is absolutely art. It is also an amazing game NOW. No other sandbox style game has bettered it, and the only thing out that comes close is Red Dead Redemption, amazingly enough a game made by the same folks.

/i know people still claim that San Andreas was better. It is not. Most of the crap you do in that game was tedious and not fun in any way. It told a great story but the GAME is hard to play after playing GTA4. Man, you just can't go back to primitive 3d graphics.

//many SNES games hold up better than many PS\PS2 level games.


No, they really don't, it;s just nostalgia goggles in action.
 
2012-12-05 10:36:22 AM

FunkyBlue: No Deus Ex, either...


It definitely pushed story telling and had great story concepts, but I didn't think it did anything greatly artistic. Even for the time the graphics were considered blocky, and dark settings with robotic figures isn't really great art. The philosophical presence might be considered artistic, if thats what you mean.

/I say this as a lover of that game
 
2012-12-05 10:37:14 AM

miniflea: I have always thought GTA stories were overwrought self important melodramas told by poor storytellers who thought they were masters of the craft.

Fun games though, and I do think the humor works, but dramatic masterpieces they are not.


My favorite game of the GTA style is Just Cause 2, by far. The grappling hook and infinite instant parachutes are total game changers.

It's biggest problem by far is no multiplayer, but that's changing.
 
2012-12-05 10:41:22 AM
I would suggest TTG Walking Dead and Shadow of the Colossus
 
2012-12-05 10:43:32 AM
i'm brave enough to out on a limb and call that Worst Article Evar Written. subject was art with a capital A and they give us a list, a written list, no pics, nothing. holy crap.

the one pic that was there, i have no idea. not everybody a game guy, i farking hate games (the modern electronic ones you pussies play) but hell i'm willing to read geek articles. toss the dog a bone for gawds sake. yeah, get all bent out of shape. i grew up playing pinball. we would go out, meet girls and play pinball. you homos wouldn't know about that.

/Monopoly. that's a game.
 
2012-12-05 10:44:39 AM
Metal Gear Solid should be there for its blend of game and cinema.
 
2012-12-05 10:44:40 AM
miniflea:I have always thought GTA stories were overwrought self important melodramas told by poor storytellers who thought they were masters of the craft.

Fun games though, and I do think the humor works, but dramatic masterpieces they are not.

Aside from GTA IV, I don't know if they thought they were msterful storytellers. 3, VC and SA were all homages that cribbed heavily from different movies and pop culture (Godfather, Scarface and Boyz n the Hood). IV became melodramatic, but the ones before it were obvious homages and satires.
 
2012-12-05 10:49:09 AM

Antimatter: frepnog: doglover: Cythraul: But almost any game these days that has a decent budget should probably be considered 'art.'

False.

GTA 4 had a huge budget and was an amazing game at the time, but it wasn't groundbreaking or meaningful, it was just a game.

if you took no meaning from Niko Bellic's tragic tale, then I simply don't know how to talk to you. The story told in GTA4 is amazingly well thought out and is absolutely art. It is also an amazing game NOW. No other sandbox style game has bettered it, and the only thing out that comes close is Red Dead Redemption, amazingly enough a game made by the same folks.

/i know people still claim that San Andreas was better. It is not. Most of the crap you do in that game was tedious and not fun in any way. It told a great story but the GAME is hard to play after playing GTA4. Man, you just can't go back to primitive 3d graphics.

//many SNES games hold up better than many PS\PS2 level games.

No, they really don't, it;s just nostalgia goggles in action.


actually, they really do because the older sprite based hand drawn art styles still look decent compared to crap early 3d visuals. Compare say, Chrono Trigger to say Chrono Cross. Chrono Cross looks like complete ass (we are speaking strictly visual here) while chrono trigger still looks like a cartoon of sorts. you can still lose yourself in Chrono Trigger, but the graphics in Chrono Cross will have you turn that shiat off before long. sega saturn games, TONS of PS1 games, quite a few PS2 games, N64 games (GOLDENEYE) all suffer to a degree from "crappy polygon graphic-itis".
 
2012-12-05 10:54:15 AM

miniflea: I have always thought GTA stories were overwrought self important melodramas told by poor storytellers who thought they were masters of the craft.

Fun games though, and I do think the humor works, but dramatic masterpieces they are not.


I don't think you're supposed to take the stories seriously. Especially the GTA III series is one giant piss-take and tongue-in-cheek homage to a various movies. Your character's story is mostly a device for showing off the world they created, rather than the focus of the game (in the first one, you don't even say anything, you're just a passive observer). In IV and RDR they did more of a proper story in its own right, but it's deliberately long-winded and meanders through their brilliantly constructed world. I'm pretty sure that Rockstar seem themselves are satirists more than storytellers.
 
2012-12-05 10:56:06 AM

frepnog: actually, they really do because the older sprite based hand drawn art styles still look decent compared to crap early 3d visuals. Compare say, Chrono Trigger to say Chrono Cross. Chrono Cross looks like complete ass (we are speaking strictly visual here) while chrono trigger still looks like a cartoon of sorts. you can still lose yourself in Chrono Trigger, but the graphics in Chrono Cross will have you turn that shiat off before long. sega saturn games, TONS of PS1 games, quite a few PS2 games, N64 games (GOLDENEYE) all suffer to a degree from "crappy polygon graphic-itis".


Counter argument, Mario 64 is on the list and Ocarina/majora'smask should have been. Yeah if you pick select 3d games you can make your argument, but 3d allows you to do more. There were bound to be growing pains.
 
2012-12-05 10:57:46 AM
Missing, for both visual and storytelling achievements:

3.bp.blogspot.com 

upload.wikimedia.org

upload.wikimedia.org 
/hot images
 
Bf+
2012-12-05 11:10:52 AM
cdn.steampowered.com
 
2012-12-05 11:11:39 AM
I've been looking for active communities for Dwarf Fortress and Plaetside 2, if anyone wants to e-mail me.
 
2012-12-05 11:13:41 AM

thecpt: frepnog: actually, they really do because the older sprite based hand drawn art styles still look decent compared to crap early 3d visuals. Compare say, Chrono Trigger to say Chrono Cross. Chrono Cross looks like complete ass (we are speaking strictly visual here) while chrono trigger still looks like a cartoon of sorts. you can still lose yourself in Chrono Trigger, but the graphics in Chrono Cross will have you turn that shiat off before long. sega saturn games, TONS of PS1 games, quite a few PS2 games, N64 games (GOLDENEYE) all suffer to a degree from "crappy polygon graphic-itis".

Counter argument, Mario 64 is on the list and Ocarina/majora'smask should have been. Yeah if you pick select 3d games you can make your argument, but 3d allows you to do more. There were bound to be growing pains.


mario 64 holds up because the game play is brilliant and the 3d graphics are kept simplistic and mixed with sprites. the 3d of the early consoles did not allow you to do more - in fact, as good a game as FF7 is, there is a reason that people still claim 6 is a better game.

there are always exceptions. in this case, the exceptions do not make the rule. Most of the stuff on PS1 and N64 especially were pretty much graphically garbage and these days are just unplayable as a result. Hell, GTA Vice City on PS2 was my favorite game EVAR for years.... I reinstalled it last year on PC and I just can't do it. I can't play it any longer. The graphics just kill it. So don't give me any "nostalgia" crap about why SNES stuff is STILL playable.
 
2012-12-05 11:15:45 AM

Bf+: [cdn.steampowered.com image 850x478]


i love that game so friggin' much.
 
2012-12-05 11:17:13 AM
List fails without Ico.

/off to lord over my Dorfs
 
2012-12-05 11:21:33 AM
Pleasantly surprised to see Vib Ribbon.

Long live the singing crack rabbit. ^_^
 
2012-12-05 11:24:17 AM

Genju: Subjective argument.


No wai, art interpretation is concrete!

en.artoffer.com
See? Concrete!
 
2012-12-05 11:24:55 AM

Bf+: [cdn.steampowered.com image 850x478]


What in the fark is that
 
2012-12-05 11:27:02 AM

dj_spanmaster: Bf+: [cdn.steampowered.com image 850x478]

What in the fark is that


that is Limbo. it is a fantastic platform\puzzle game.
 
2012-12-05 11:27:46 AM
I came in to make some argument on the definition of 'art', but I'm coming away with a much longer list of games to play that I've never heard of.

Which, one could argue is the point of art ....

\ so meta ...
\\ BOOM HEADSHOT
 
2012-12-05 11:28:43 AM
- flOw (2006)

- Passage (2008)

- Canabalt (2009)


ROFL

dj_spanmaster: What in the fark is that


A game which neglects every rule of competent game design and ends up with a passionate following because it recreates the aesthetics of silent film design. Therefore, it's "art". Lol.
 
2012-12-05 11:32:55 AM

Mike_LowELL: - flOw (2006)

- Passage (2008)

- Canabalt (2009)

ROFL

dj_spanmaster: What in the fark is that

A game which neglects every rule of competent game design and ends up with a passionate following because it recreates the aesthetics of silent film design. Therefore, it's "art". Lol.


jaded much? Limbo was amazing.
 
2012-12-05 11:33:22 AM

Nurglitch: Antimatter: Videogames are no different then film really, it's just they let the viewer have some control over how the story is presented, rather then being passively taking in the experience.

Video games aren't necessarily narrative. Tetris, for example, is not a metaphor for anything.


I suggest watching this video
 
2012-12-05 11:33:57 AM
A true work of art: 

ecx.images-amazon.com
 
2012-12-05 11:34:57 AM
Shadow of the colossus really should be on there. I cant think of any game that merges scenery story gameplay, really all of its elements as well as it does.
 
2012-12-05 11:36:48 AM

frepnog: Antimatter: frepnog: doglover: Cythraul: But almost any game these days that has a decent budget should probably be considered 'art.'

False.

GTA 4 had a huge budget and was an amazing game at the time, but it wasn't groundbreaking or meaningful, it was just a game.

if you took no meaning from Niko Bellic's tragic tale, then I simply don't know how to talk to you. The story told in GTA4 is amazingly well thought out and is absolutely art. It is also an amazing game NOW. No other sandbox style game has bettered it, and the only thing out that comes close is Red Dead Redemption, amazingly enough a game made by the same folks.

/i know people still claim that San Andreas was better. It is not. Most of the crap you do in that game was tedious and not fun in any way. It told a great story but the GAME is hard to play after playing GTA4. Man, you just can't go back to primitive 3d graphics.

//many SNES games hold up better than many PS\PS2 level games.

No, they really don't, it;s just nostalgia goggles in action.

actually, they really do because the older sprite based hand drawn art styles still look decent compared to crap early 3d visuals. Compare say, Chrono Trigger to say Chrono Cross. Chrono Cross looks like complete ass (we are speaking strictly visual here) while chrono trigger still looks like a cartoon of sorts. you can still lose yourself in Chrono Trigger, but the graphics in Chrono Cross will have you turn that shiat off before long. sega saturn games, TONS of PS1 games, quite a few PS2 games, N64 games (GOLDENEYE) all suffer to a degree from "crappy polygon graphic-itis".


To be fair, CT's story is interesting and the characters are fun. CC had too many characters with little plot relevance and the story goes to hell on the second disc.

Never good to have a plot dump 3 minutes before the final boss.
 
2012-12-05 11:37:01 AM

frepnog: there are always exceptions. in this case, the exceptions do not make the rule. Most of the stuff on PS1 and N64 especially were pretty much graphically garbage and these days are just unplayable as a result. Hell, GTA Vice City on PS2 was my favorite game EVAR for years.... I reinstalled it last year on PC and I just can't do it. I can't play it any longer. The graphics just kill it. So don't give me any "nostalgia" crap about why SNES stuff is STILL playable.


I don't have any particular nostalgia feelings for older games being art. I'm trying to say that there were growing pains during the mid nineties until 3D was artistically viable. But during those budding years there were definitely stand outs.

You reminded me that Cloud Strife's arms were cones. Nonetheless you could "see" that 3d world better than previous games where you had to fill in the blanks with your imagination.
 
2012-12-05 11:41:16 AM

thecpt: frepnog: there are always exceptions. in this case, the exceptions do not make the rule. Most of the stuff on PS1 and N64 especially were pretty much graphically garbage and these days are just unplayable as a result. Hell, GTA Vice City on PS2 was my favorite game EVAR for years.... I reinstalled it last year on PC and I just can't do it. I can't play it any longer. The graphics just kill it. So don't give me any "nostalgia" crap about why SNES stuff is STILL playable.

I don't have any particular nostalgia feelings for older games being art. I'm trying to say that there were growing pains during the mid nineties until 3D was artistically viable. But during those budding years there were definitely stand outs.

You reminded me that Cloud Strife's arms were cones. Nonetheless you could "see" that 3d world better than previous games where you had to fill in the blanks with your imagination.


not really. FF7 was 3d models on old style static backgrounds. The entire game (with retooled battle scenes, of course) could have been an SNES game.
 
2012-12-05 11:44:24 AM
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-12-05 11:47:44 AM

Honest Bender: [upload.wikimedia.org image 230x293]


That was a great game.
 
2012-12-05 11:52:14 AM

wippit: Nurglitch: Antimatter: Videogames are no different then film really, it's just they let the viewer have some control over how the story is presented, rather then being passively taking in the experience.

Video games aren't necessarily narrative. Tetris, for example, is not a metaphor for anything.

I suggest watching this video


I can't watch video at work, but I really really hope that is the "We are the men who assemble the blocks" video. One of the best things I've seen on youtube, and highly relevant to the current discussion.
 
2012-12-05 11:53:24 AM

frepnog: not really. FF7 was 3d models on old style static backgrounds. The entire game (with retooled battle scenes, of course) could have been an SNES game.


So the only option is cartoonish 2d style or an attempt at immersion. I don't think its nostalgia to say that I thought the 3d was cool and different back in the day. No one had done that for a 60 hour game and I respected that when I did my first playthrough 7 years after it came out. It was still fun and unique to me, even then. They tried to push what they could do graphically, and it payed off.

/3 whole disks of it
 
2012-12-05 11:53:31 AM
Let's make this very clear: By definition, just about everything in our society today is artistic. The only debate is whether or not the art is good art or bad art. Deus Ex, Supreme Commander, Vanquish, and Dark Souls are examples of some of the most artistic games that we have. They are artistic because they are some of the best videogames that we have. They don't end up being "not artistic" because they're about killing, or "lack an emotional story", or whatever nonsense narrative we're on about this week. Even though Deus Ex certainly boasts discussion of philosophy and transhumanism that is relevant to this day, the game is not art because of it. Deus Ex is art because it's farking awesome.

Limbo, Canabalt, and Journey are not "artistic" because they borrow lessons from the traditional arts. (Oh, and anyone who thinks Canabalt is a work of art should at least delve back into the medium and see that Chelnov did the same things twenty-five years ago, and actually featured things like "level design", and "stage progression", and "enemies", and "power-ups", and "actual variables that lead to a more complex game".) They're not good, which means they're not good art. This idea that video games need to borrow from techniques in painting or movies in order to transcend itself needs to stop. The great early moviemakers trumped and surpassed those who thought moviemaking should draw from the traditional arts, because D.W. Griffith and company had no preconceived notions about what this new different media could do. And if these pioneers had any background, it was (like Griffith) in theatre, a form of art whose exaggerated physical acting played perfectly into silent film. Art's purpose is to entertain. Not to be "emotional and shiat".

frepnog: jaded much? Limbo was amazing.


Easy puzzles, poor platforming, completely and utterly rigid narrative (comparably rigid to the ones that artgame players would complain about in today's modern explod-a-thon), a complete and utter lack of difficulty and challenge, and an absolute lack of conveyance about the hazards of the game world that is only offset by the absurd number of checkpoints you come across. It's one of the most aggravating games that I've played in recent memory. There is a difference between "you die a lot" and "you die a lot because we're not properly disclosing the hazards and rules of our game world to you". (Oh, and if you think I'm just holding "short game that eschews difficulty and complex mechanics in favor of atmosphere" purely against Limbo, keep in mind that I don't really like Portal, either.)
 
2012-12-05 11:56:57 AM

my_cats_breath_smells_like_cat_food: wippit: Nurglitch: Antimatter: Videogames are no different then film really, it's just they let the viewer have some control over how the story is presented, rather then being passively taking in the experience.

Video games aren't necessarily narrative. Tetris, for example, is not a metaphor for anything.

I suggest watching this video

I can't watch video at work, but I really really hope that is the "We are the men who assemble the blocks" video. One of the best things I've seen on youtube, and highly relevant to the current discussion.


Indeed, that is the video.
 
2012-12-05 11:57:08 AM

Cythraul: They have to hire writers, concept artists, 3D modelers and so on. Sounds pretty artistic to me.


Next we'll be inducting cranes and wrenches into art museums.
 
2012-12-05 11:58:46 AM
It's a completely subjective list, but my top 5 games of all time are:

upload.wikimedia.org

ecx.images-amazon.com

cdn2.pitchfork.com

images1.wikia.nocookie.net

upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-12-05 11:59:50 AM

thecpt: frepnog: there are always exceptions. in this case, the exceptions do not make the rule. Most of the stuff on PS1 and N64 especially were pretty much graphically garbage and these days are just unplayable as a result. Hell, GTA Vice City on PS2 was my favorite game EVAR for years.... I reinstalled it last year on PC and I just can't do it. I can't play it any longer. The graphics just kill it. So don't give me any "nostalgia" crap about why SNES stuff is STILL playable.

I don't have any particular nostalgia feelings for older games being art. I'm trying to say that there were growing pains during the mid nineties until 3D was artistically viable. But during those budding years there were definitely stand outs.

You reminded me that Cloud Strife's arms were cones. Nonetheless you could "see" that 3d world better than previous games where you had to fill in the blanks with your imagination.


Nah, it was hideous garbage. 3D games started looking respectable about five years ago. Everything before that resembled a Dire Straits music video.
 
2012-12-05 11:59:50 AM

moothemagiccow: Next we'll be inducting cranes and wrenches into art museums.


Once again, anything can be artistic. It's a matter of whether it's "art" (i.e. good art) or "not art" (i.e. bad art).
 
2012-12-05 12:02:00 PM

thecpt: LooseLips: Ctrl F Okami

??? Fail!

Why do people like that game? I guess its good at showing Japanese style, but I don't actually know anyone who liked it as a game. Same goes for Heavy Rain when it shows up on these "Art" lists.


Thankless fetch quest wolf
 
2012-12-05 12:06:27 PM
Nearly all of the 'earmarked' games are gold. Pac-man, Tetris and possibly Portal are the only games I see on the actual list that belong there, IMO.
 
2012-12-05 12:06:58 PM

kumanoki: It's a completely subjective list, but my top 5 games of all time are:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 256x256]

[ecx.images-amazon.com image 300x300]

[cdn2.pitchfork.com image 640x330]

[images1.wikia.nocookie.net image 230x332]

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x333]


My list is;

1. Batman: The Arkham Series
2. Super Mario 64
3. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time
4. MLB: The Show series
5. Portal
 
2012-12-05 12:08:28 PM

Mike_LowELL: (Oh, and if you think I'm just holding "short game that eschews difficulty and complex mechanics in favor of atmosphere" purely against Limbo, keep in mind that I don't really like Portal, either.)


ah, so you are broken then. I see.

moothemagiccow: Nah, it was hideous garbage. 3D games started looking respectable about five years ago. Everything before that resembled a Dire Straits music video.


that was what I was saying. Early 3d graphics really hurt the staying power of the games, while games like.... oh, Donkey Kong Country on SNES still look pretty damn great (yeah, it was CGI too, but CGI converted to sprites may as well been hand drawn). DKC still looks better than say ... oh, what was that early PS1 game where you were a robot rabbit? God, it looks like shiat.
 
2012-12-05 12:09:08 PM
Shadow of the Beast was quite impressive for 1989 (graphics and music). To put it into the proper historical context, Microsoft was still a year away from releasing their first version of Minesweeper.
 
2012-12-05 12:09:56 PM

kukukupo: Nearly all of the 'earmarked' games are gold. Pac-man, Tetris and possibly Portal are the only games I see on the actual list that belong there, IMO.


I'm actually a little upset Minecraft isn't in now, and is on the earmarked list. The sheer amount of pictures from that game available on the internet may start to rival porn.

/Ok, maybe not porn
//Ponies. Rival ponies.
 
2012-12-05 12:10:02 PM

Antimatter: frepnog: doglover: Cythraul: But almost any game these days that has a decent budget should probably be considered 'art.'

False.

GTA 4 had a huge budget and was an amazing game at the time, but it wasn't groundbreaking or meaningful, it was just a game.

if you took no meaning from Niko Bellic's tragic tale, then I simply don't know how to talk to you. The story told in GTA4 is amazingly well thought out and is absolutely art. It is also an amazing game NOW. No other sandbox style game has bettered it, and the only thing out that comes close is Red Dead Redemption, amazingly enough a game made by the same folks.

/i know people still claim that San Andreas was better. It is not. Most of the crap you do in that game was tedious and not fun in any way. It told a great story but the GAME is hard to play after playing GTA4. Man, you just can't go back to primitive 3d graphics.

//many SNES games hold up better than many PS\PS2 level games.

No, they really don't, it;s just nostalgia goggles in action.


Yes, they really do.
 
2012-12-05 12:14:16 PM

frepnog: ah, so you are broken then. I see.


What a half-assed response. "You don't think a short, unchallenging puzzle game is good, so I don't have to respond to any of your criticisms of another short, unchallenging puzzle game."
 
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