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(Orange County Register)   We are Not facing the fiscal cliff because the rich are not paying their fair share. It's because you want too many freebies   (ocregister.com) divider line 505
    More: Unlikely, Mark Steyn, American Love, sissy, Charles Schumer, surrender monkeys, government expenditure, syndicated columnist, Party leaders of the United States Senate  
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3574 clicks; posted to Politics » on 03 Dec 2012 at 2:15 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-03 02:53:13 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Mitt Romney pays half of what I pay. Maybe taxing that farker at my rate won't balance the budget, but it would be a start.


If cutting the $450 million (a tiny fraction of our deficit) we spend on Public Broadcasting is a sum worth mentioning in a Presidential debate, then then the revenue gained by letting the Bush-era tax cuts expire on the wealthy is fair game.

It wont solve the problem but Romney made it clear that every little bit helps.
 
2012-12-03 02:53:59 PM

Captain_Sunshine: Didn't someone actually play around with the numbers a couple of years ago and estimate the peak of that curve at around a 70% tax rate for the top earners? I seem to remember that, but I can't find it (and I have to get back to work).


The paper examined the Swedish economy.

Swedish Tax Rates, Labor Supply, and Tax Revenues

Charles E. Stuart
Journal of Political Economy
Vol. 89, No. 5 (Oct., 1981), pp. 1020-1038
 
2012-12-03 02:54:01 PM

garron: Seems like all good socialist leaders who preach sacrifice and condemn the rich have this weakness when it comes to their own personal wealth.


That is a very brave card to play.
 
2012-12-03 02:54:35 PM

garron: ToxicMunkee: Fine. Let's end all the "entitlement programs" and let people f*cking die. I'm sick of all of this stupid bullish*t. Who needs Death Panels when all we have to do is let people starve?

America. F*ck yeah.

This is the type of ignorant hyperbole that completely defines the left.

Conservatives are not arguing to eliminate life saving entitlements. They are arguing to eliminate stupid ones like free cell phones and food stamps and welfare programs for healthy people who simply choose not to work. And I'll go ahead and throw in tax-payer funded, multi-million dollar vacations and star-studded parties for our "first family". Where exactly is their sacrifice for the greater good?

Seems like all good socialist leaders who preach sacrifice and condemn the rich have this weakness when it comes to their own personal wealth.


So food stamps and welfare are part of the "stupid" "life saving entitlements"? We have a "socialist leader", you say?

What a colossal dumbfark you are.
 
2012-12-03 02:54:54 PM

garron:
This is the type of ignorant hyperbole that completely defines the left.

Conservatives are not arguing to eliminate life saving entitlements. They are arguing to eliminate stupid ones like free cell phones and food stamps and welfare programs for healthy people who simply choose not to work. And I'll go ahead and throw in tax-payer funded, multi-million dollar vacations and star-studded parties for our "first family". Where exactly is their sacrifice for the greater good?

Seems like all good socialist leaders who preach sacrifice and condemn the rich have this weakness when it comes to their own personal wealth.


Close the free cell phone loophole and welfare, and stop letting the lazy, shiftless blah president go on vacation and we will totes solve the budget crisis! Protip: You are dumb.
 
2012-12-03 02:55:09 PM

Trivia Jockey: Captain_Sunshine: Didn't someone actually play around with the numbers a couple of years ago and estimate the peak of that curve at around a 70% tax rate for the top earners?

If any politician suggested that, the Koch brothers would sh*t an ingot.


I think a 70% tax rate on the top margin would be perfectly reasonable, certainly until the cost of the two wars is off set. Those wars were paid on credit. The lower and middle-classes paid in blood and tears. The elite should pay in treasure especially because the war was their idea.
 
2012-12-03 02:55:26 PM

garron: Conservatives are not arguing to eliminate life saving entitlements.


No, just to privatize them.

(See: Paul Ryan and his dumbass plan for Medicare)
 
2012-12-03 02:55:36 PM
Freebies like unemployment insurance and Social Security, airports, interstate highway system...

Those kinds of freebies?
 
2012-12-03 02:55:49 PM
Let's not forget that the one sacred cow that nobody seems to be even talking about cutting is the Military, which is basically just a glorified jobs program that produces no real benefit to the nation.

I have no real philisophical problem with jobs programs - as long as they benefit the country and its citizens. If we were spending that amount to make sure health care and education are top-notch and free then I would be OK cutting elsewhere to keep it. But instead it's being poured into useless wars, pointless R&D and millions of salaried positions that benefit the country not one bit.
 
2012-12-03 02:56:07 PM

un4gvn666: Captain_Sunshine: Trivia Jockey: Shockingly (or not), history and economic theory demonstrates you can do this and still have a prosperous economy.

Absolutely. The idea that none of these conservatives will even entertain the idea that we are still on the left side of their oh-so-descriptive Laffer Curve is extremely dishonest. It's their treatment of supply-side economics as religion showing through.

Didn't someone actually play around with the numbers a couple of years ago and estimate the peak of that curve at around a 70% tax rate for the top earners? I seem to remember that, but I can't find it (and I have to get back to work).

Here you go.


Ah, never mind my previous post. I was not aware of that one. Thanks.
 
2012-12-03 02:56:07 PM
Ok Republicans then I don't want to hear you biatching about cutting ANYTHING less then what these revenues raises.

You can no longer ask to cut things like NPR or Planned Parenthood deal?

Oh of course not you are hypocritical bastards who shift your justification based on if you like something or not.
 
2012-12-03 02:56:13 PM

Captain_Sunshine: Didn't someone actually play around with the numbers a couple of years ago and estimate the peak of that curve at around a 70% tax rate for the top earners? I seem to remember that, but I can't find it (and I have to get back to work).


i.imgur.com 

as you can see on this chart it is actually highest at 0%
 
2012-12-03 02:56:16 PM

garron: ToxicMunkee: Fine. Let's end all the "entitlement programs" and let people f*cking die. I'm sick of all of this stupid bullish*t. Who needs Death Panels when all we have to do is let people starve?

America. F*ck yeah.

This is the type of ignorant hyperbole that completely defines the left.

Conservatives are not arguing to eliminate life saving entitlements. They are arguing to eliminate stupid ones like free cell phones and food stamps and welfare programs for healthy people who simply choose not to work. And I'll go ahead and throw in tax-payer funded, multi-million dollar vacations and star-studded parties for our "first family". Where exactly is their sacrifice for the greater good?

Seems like all good socialist leaders who preach sacrifice and condemn the rich have this weakness when it comes to their own personal wealth.


Tried getting a job without a phone recently?
 
2012-12-03 02:56:25 PM

Lionel Mandrake: Naw, you can't possibly be serious...can you?


i.imgur.com
 
2012-12-03 02:56:42 PM

Parthenogenetic: un4gvn666: Captain_Sunshine: Trivia Jockey: Shockingly (or not), history and economic theory demonstrates you can do this and still have a prosperous economy.

Absolutely. The idea that none of these conservatives will even entertain the idea that we are still on the left side of their oh-so-descriptive Laffer Curve is extremely dishonest. It's their treatment of supply-side economics as religion showing through.

Didn't someone actually play around with the numbers a couple of years ago and estimate the peak of that curve at around a 70% tax rate for the top earners? I seem to remember that, but I can't find it (and I have to get back to work).

Here you go.

Ah, never mind my previous post. I was not aware of that one. Thanks.


Not a problem.
 
2012-12-03 02:57:40 PM

mrshowrules: I think a 70% tax rate on the top margin would be perfectly reasonable, certainly until the cost of the two wars is off set. Those wars were paid on credit. The lower and middle-classes paid in blood and tears. The elite should pay in treasure especially because the war was their idea.


it worked in the 1950s. the greatest generation!
 
2012-12-03 02:57:50 PM
So the right has moved on from calling my desire to have the Social Security and Medicare that I've paid for an "entitlement" and now they're calling it a "freebie".

Are they still calling the guys lining their pockets by gutting American companies and loading them with debt after off-shoring all the workers "Job Creators"?
 
2012-12-03 02:57:52 PM

sprawl15: Captain_Sunshine: Didn't someone actually play around with the numbers a couple of years ago and estimate the peak of that curve at around a 70% tax rate for the top earners? I seem to remember that, but I can't find it (and I have to get back to work).

[i.imgur.com image 455x270] 

as you can see on this chart it is actually highest at 0%


So THAT'S what conservative math looks like on paper! As mesmerizing as I imagined.
 
2012-12-03 02:58:08 PM

garron: They are arguing to eliminate stupid ones like free cell phones and food stamps and welfare programs for healthy people who simply choose not to work. And I'll go ahead and throw in tax-payer funded, multi-million dollar vacations and star-studded parties for our "first family". Where exactly is their sacrifice for the greater good?


How much of the budget do you think all that crap consists of in comparison to things like SS, Medicare, and Defense?

You guys worry about petty bullcrap like this while protecting and growing sacred cows like the Defense budget.

This is why I laugh my ass off when they say that Conservatives care about the budget.
 
2012-12-03 02:58:12 PM

cefm: Let's not forget that the one sacred cow that nobody seems to be even talking about cutting is the Military, which is basically just a glorified jobs program that produces no real benefit to the nation.

I have no real philisophical problem with jobs programs - as long as they benefit the country and its citizens. If we were spending that amount to make sure health care and education are top-notch and free then I would be OK cutting elsewhere to keep it. But instead it's being poured into useless wars, pointless R&D and millions of salaried positions that benefit the country not one bit.


so you would eliminate the military. Brilliant!
 
2012-12-03 02:58:15 PM

slayer199: That's pretty much true because in a bi-partisan world there isn't a third way that's valid

....

Keep flag-waving for your party...right off the cliff like a bunch of lemmings.


Damn partisan politics! Support [X] political party!
Almost included this the first time: the belief that some third party will fix things and, being that it's filled with enlightened freedom-loving people, will behave unlike every other political party in history. 

Of course that's not all libertarians, a lot of them just vote Republican.
 
2012-12-03 02:59:39 PM

eraser8: FTFA: We already have a more severely redistributive taxation system than Europe, in which the wealthiest 20 percent of Americans pay 70 percent of income tax while the poorest 20 percent shoulder just three-fifths of 1 percent. By comparison, the Norwegian tax burden is relatively equitably distributed.

Could that be, perhaps, because in Europe wealth and income are more even distributed? In Norway, does the top 10% control 80% of the wealth?

Here's the wealth distribution in the USA v. wealth distribution in Sweden (although, it's facetiously called "Equalden" in the chart):

[apt46.net image 615x396]



That is not an actual distribution of wealth in Sweden. The top 20% in Sweden controls ~70% of the wealth (compared to 84% in the US). I am not sure why people keep saying that pie chart is sweden, but I have seen it a few times.
 
2012-12-03 02:59:42 PM

I_Am_Weasel: tallguywithglasseson: We already have a more severely redistributive taxation system than Europe, in which the wealthiest 20 percent of Americans pay 70 percent of income tax while the poorest 20 percent shoulder just three-fifths of 1 percent. By comparison, the Norwegian tax burden is relatively equitably distributed. Yet Obama now wishes "the rich" to pay their "fair share...

I'll make a deal with you, conservative writer.

If the income and wealth disparity in the U.S. reach the same levels as Norway, I'll support a Norwegian-style tax code.

Deal?

It's a thought provoking point he has. Suppose we've two people, one making $100,000 and the other is $20,000. If was tax them both 10%, that would be $10,000 and $2,000 respectively. In this scenario, the 'rich' guy is paying 83% of the taxes, and is therefore pay well more than his fair share under what I would assume would be Steyn's "logic". Imagine someone who puts less critical thinking into their article than Thomas Sowell, who is, coincidentally, just behind Steyn at the top of the Top 50 Conservative Writers on that there derplog.


So after taxation they should be equal. As in both guys should have $18k in disposable income. So the tax rate for the guy making $20k should be 10% and the guy making $100k should be 82%.

Guys, why are you running away from me?

Guys?!? put that down!

Ow! stop throwing stones...

//Don't ask for equal. You won't like it.
 
2012-12-03 02:59:42 PM
Libertarianland: remember the Articles of Confederation? Wasn't that great? Let's do it again!
 
2012-12-03 03:00:29 PM

Marcus Aurelius: Percentages, how the fark do they work? Are you on some kind of special taxation system where you pay a set amount? Because I personally have to pay this thing known as a "percentage".

There's a good article on Wikipedia about it, you should check it out.



And that's how we pay for roads and bridges, wages for employees and national defense? Do we pay for them with percentages?! No, we pay for them with dollars. Dollars are what count. Romney pays more dollars for you. Gratitude wouldn't be uncalled for.

gilgigamesh: Hey, if you don't ever have the occasion to use those federally regulated air traffic routes for your private jet, that's on you.


Actually you have to pay extra for that.
 
2012-12-03 03:01:00 PM
What someone who gets hundreds of billions in government handouts might look like:

upload.wikimedia.org
upload.wikimedia.org
upload.wikimedia.org
upload.wikimedia.org
upload.wikimedia.org
 
2012-12-03 03:01:08 PM

colon_pow: cefm: Let's not forget that the one sacred cow that nobody seems to be even talking about cutting is the Military, which is basically just a glorified jobs program that produces no real benefit to the nation.

I have no real philisophical problem with jobs programs - as long as they benefit the country and its citizens. If we were spending that amount to make sure health care and education are top-notch and free then I would be OK cutting elsewhere to keep it. But instead it's being poured into useless wars, pointless R&D and millions of salaried positions that benefit the country not one bit.

so you would eliminate the military. Brilliant!


CUTTING THE DOD BUDGET EVEN BY $1 WOULD MEAN SURRENDERING TO CHINA!!!!!!11111!!!
 
2012-12-03 03:01:32 PM

doczoidberg: I just want to loot the system as much as possible before it collapses.

Is that so wrong?


It's either wars or entitlements, and we suck at the war thing lately.
 
2012-12-03 03:01:38 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: We already have a more severely redistributive taxation system than Europe


True, but Europe's spending is also progressive. Imagine if the average American middle class family paid zero or near zero for healthcare. Imagine if the average middle class family paid zero or near zero for college tuition. Imagine all that money back into their pockets, and back into our economy driving up aggregate demand.


Yeah, then we would be on solid economic footing, just like Europe.
 
2012-12-03 03:03:00 PM

sprawl15: Captain_Sunshine: Didn't someone actually play around with the numbers a couple of years ago and estimate the peak of that curve at around a 70% tax rate for the top earners? I seem to remember that, but I can't find it (and I have to get back to work).

[i.imgur.com image 455x270] 

as you can see on this chart it is actually highest at 0%


Are you a troll, trying to be funny and it not working, or just dumb. I can never really tell.
 
2012-12-03 03:03:05 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Marcus Aurelius: Mitt Romney pays half of what I pay. Maybe taxing that farker at my rate won't balance the budget, but it would be a start.

I don't know for a fact. But I'm going to make a crazy guess and say Romney pays a hell of a lot more money than you do.


Unless RMoney releases his tax returns, we don't know if he paid a dime.
 
2012-12-03 03:03:37 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Romney pays more dollars for you. Gratitude wouldn't be uncalled for.


im grateful theres not enough dicks in the world for Romney to choke on, because that would be a whole lot of dicks and i don't want to see that kind of thing when I'm out eating or chopping lumber
 
2012-12-03 03:04:17 PM

jigger: Yeah, then we would be on solid economic footing, just like Europe.


You're snarking a claim I did not make. Go you.
 
2012-12-03 03:04:54 PM

sprawl15: im grateful theres not enough dicks in the world for Romney to choke on, because that would be a whole lot of dicks and i don't want to see that kind of thing when I'm out eating or chopping lumber


Don't worry, the Voyager space probe has ventured beyond the solar system in search of sufficient dicks
 
2012-12-03 03:05:00 PM

MadHatter500: //Don't ask for equal. You won't like it.


It's a response to the author's taxation "fairness" statistic.

And, no, I don't want it, and he wouldn't either (which I think most reasonable people probably already knew).
It's just a disingenuous argument.
 
2012-12-03 03:05:19 PM
It's not spending if the Republicans do it.
 
2012-12-03 03:05:35 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I don't know for a fact. But I'm going to make a crazy guess and say Romney pays a hell of a lot more money than you do.


No one know but we DO now the 100 million he gave to his kids was tax free. And the hundred's of millions in his 401k that most of us "little people" can't do.

So I guess you'd have to admit the system is broken.
 
2012-12-03 03:05:38 PM

doczoidberg: I just want to loot the system as much as possible before it collapses.

Is that so wrong?


That's definitely what the Baby Boomers are up to. They are perpetrating the greatest dine-and-dash in the history of mankind.
 
2012-12-03 03:06:24 PM

Corvus: What someone who gets hundreds of billions in government handouts might look like:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x42]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x62]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 176x30]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x22]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x39]


Not changing anytime soon either. We talk about defense cuts, but all that really means once it hits the street is a decrease in recruiting and kicking out lots of active duty military before they hit 20. DoD knows it too, which is why early retirements are now a thing. The easiest way to make cuts are to slash down on recruits, boot out the old E-6's and O-4's who aren't making rank, and get rid of some of the niceties on the base.
 
2012-12-03 03:06:26 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: We already have a more severely redistributive taxation system than Europe


True, but Europe's spending is also progressive. Imagine if the average American middle class family paid zero or near zero for healthcare. Imagine if the average middle class family paid zero or near zero for college tuition. Imagine all that money back into their pockets, and back into our economy driving up aggregate demand.


Seriously simple way to put it:

Try to think of one true "middle class" family of 4 or 5 that you know that could afford taking a month off of work and spending the entirety of that time in Hawaii each year. Because Europeans do similar on a regular basis. All of the arguments about taxes, healthcare, and other BS are irrelevant. The only relevant thing is disposable income. Americans have significantly less on average because our system sucks more.
 
2012-12-03 03:07:14 PM

slayer199: Again, the populace gets sidelined by argument of the rich paying their fair share rather than the real problem. The farking government spends too damn much money. And it's not a Republican or Democrat issue...it's a U.S. Government issue as BOTH sides are to blame.

/facepalm

You can raise taxes to 90% on everyone above $100k and it's not going to do a damn thing unless BOTH sides can significantly cut spending. Budgets, how do they work?


TFA did raise a good point, though. In Europe, they tax and spend on very specific things--the rich pay out the ass, everyone has socialized health care, and the system works pretty damn well. People have tons of vacation time, realistic work hours, good jobs, and a better standard of living.

And their countries are completely, 100% functional.

Imagine if we did that here. And yes, it would mean the rich paid a hell of a lot more. But it would also mean the rich, like everyone else, would have a better quality of life, and America wouldn't be the embarrassment of civilized nations.
 
2012-12-03 03:07:45 PM

physt: Unless RMoney releases his tax returns, we don't know if he paid a dime.


I'm fairly sure that someone is checking into that right now. I'm not say that the current administration is petty but I'm not not saying it.
 
2012-12-03 03:08:53 PM

verbaltoxin: Corvus: What someone who gets hundreds of billions in government handouts might look like:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x42]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 250x62]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 176x30]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 300x22]
[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x39]

Not changing anytime soon either. We talk about defense cuts, but all that really means once it hits the street is a decrease in recruiting and kicking out lots of active duty military before they hit 20. DoD knows it too, which is why early retirements are now a thing. The easiest way to make cuts are to slash down on recruits, boot out the old E-6's and O-4's who aren't making rank, and get rid of some of the niceties on the base.


I know it's crazy. Everytime there is cuts in DOD it happens to troops while we still keep doing million dollar contracts that are just some admirals pet project that they have no clue about.

I worked in defense contract work. People think public employes waste money? Defense contractors are the worst in the world. You have meetings about hit the right "burn rate" so you can go through all the money you can.
 
2012-12-03 03:09:43 PM

Dusk-You-n-Me: jigger: Yeah, then we would be on solid economic footing, just like Europe.

You're snarking a claim I did not make. Go you.


You said if the US government taxed and spent like Eurpoean governments, that would drive up aggregate demand. Why would you want to drive up aggregate demand? What do you believe that would accomplish?
 
2012-12-03 03:09:47 PM

The Stealth Hippopotamus: physt: Unless RMoney releases his tax returns, we don't know if he paid a dime.

I'm fairly sure that someone is checking into that right now. I'm not say that the current administration is petty but I'm not not saying it.


You're an idiot. A) they can't do that. and B) why the hell would they?

And yes you are saying it.
 
2012-12-03 03:10:19 PM
School lunch programs and infrastructure befitting the world's richest nation, or a new yacht for Mortimer? Decisions, decisions...

Taxes are as low as they've ever been, but god forbid we raise them slightly on the richest Americans. Far better to completely gut the government, making it useless. Hey, if you're wealthy enough, you won't need them, anyway. With all the money you'll save on taxes, you won't need new roads or bridges. You can just take a helicopter around town. The pilot will be glad for the work!
 
2012-12-03 03:10:29 PM

Mrtraveler01: CUTTING THE DOD BUDGET EVEN BY $1 WOULD MEAN SURRENDERING TO CHINA!!!!!!11111!!!


Too late, we already surrendered to the Kaiser's High Seas Fleet since we didn't have as many ships as we did in 1916.
 
2012-12-03 03:10:39 PM

jigger: Dusk-You-n-Me: jigger: Yeah, then we would be on solid economic footing, just like Europe.

You're snarking a claim I did not make. Go you.

You said if the US government taxed and spent like Eurpoean governments, that would drive up aggregate demand. Why would you want to drive up aggregate demand? What do you believe that would accomplish?


It would create jobs. Are you seriously this clueless? You don't think increased demand makes more jobs?
 
2012-12-03 03:10:48 PM

Skarekrough: But it goes deeper than that. The "job creators" have spent almost ten years actively working to make their employees work harder for much less and still keep as much from them in the form of benefits as possible.

As a card-carrying member of the middle-class who does the job of three people while employed as a contractor so that my employer won't have to give me health insurance I can tell you that it wasn't always this way. There was a point in time where they understood that the longer I remained working for them the more valuable I was due to knowing the job. There was a time when that was incentivized by a pay raises at regular intervals, vacation pay, bonuses, GOOD health insurance and other amenities.

There was a time when I would bust my ass because I was treated well and fairly. I WANTED the company to succeed because I felt some sense of responsibility even if all I was getting was a fair wage. Stay late? Sure. Weekends? I'm down. An overnight? If you need me, let me know.

Now, that for a company that actively works to give me as little as he legally can with managers who specialize in trying to convince me that what I am getting is the best I could ever hope for?

Not bloody likely.


I don't disagree with your assessment. Solving the income disparity problem is not a tax issue (though I don't disagree that taxes need to go up to balance the budget), though to be honest I'm not sure where we'd start resolve income disparity (though I think the tax system as a whole needs a complete overhaul).
 
2012-12-03 03:11:10 PM

PsiChick: slayer199: Again, the populace gets sidelined by argument of the rich paying their fair share rather than the real problem. The farking government spends too damn much money. And it's not a Republican or Democrat issue...it's a U.S. Government issue as BOTH sides are to blame.

/facepalm

You can raise taxes to 90% on everyone above $100k and it's not going to do a damn thing unless BOTH sides can significantly cut spending. Budgets, how do they work?

TFA did raise a good point, though. In Europe, they tax and spend on very specific things--the rich pay out the ass, everyone has socialized health care, and the system works pretty damn well. People have tons of vacation time, realistic work hours, good jobs, and a better standard of living.

And their countries are completely, 100% functional.

Imagine if we did that here. And yes, it would mean the rich paid a hell of a lot more. But it would also mean the rich, like everyone else, would have a better quality of life, and America wouldn't be the embarrassment of civilized nations.


Europe makes use of the VAT a lot more than we do, also. It makes goods more expensive but it does feed back into social spending.

Strangely enough the European countries doing the worst, are the ones who borrowed cheaply on high risk, and created bubbles in their economies. Libertarians like to point out Greece but the fact is, Greece doesn't print its own money, and it is an example of spending run amok at the cost of production. The US isn't Greece but pointing out reality doesn't penetrate the gold bug's bubble.
 
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