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(The New York Times)   Thomas Jefferson was a dick   (nytimes.com) divider line 60
    More: Interesting, Monticello, Jon Meacham, visiting professor, state legislators, independent scholars, Criminal Code  
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29225 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Dec 2012 at 5:16 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-02 10:04:46 PM  
9 votes:

Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

/didn't read


You basically summed up the article without reading it. I think anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the individual Fathers already knew he was a particular nasty sonofab*tch, though they certainly won't be teaching that in high school Western Civ. classes anytime soon.

My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.
2012-12-02 10:22:19 PM  
5 votes:

DamnYankees: GAT_00: Yeah, but it wasn't like Jefferson was the only abolitionist who never freed his slaves.

Jefferson wasn't an abolitionist. He was the opposite.


He was and wasn't. He hated slavery, but didn't want to end it for fear of mass revolts.

there is not a man on earth who would sacrifice more than I would, to relieve us from this heavy reproach [slavery]... we have the wolf by the ear, and we can neither hold him, nor safely let him go. Justice is in one scale, and self-preservation in the other.
2012-12-03 12:48:55 AM  
4 votes:
Trying to compartmentalize people as all good or all bad is really stupid.
2012-12-02 11:16:55 PM  
4 votes:

GAT_00: Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.


Read this book...

George Washington: Anguish and Farewell 1793-1799 - Volume IV

You guys want to know how important Thomas Jefferson was? Imagine if we didn't have him to battle against Alexander Hamilton while Washington presided over the Battle Royale that was the founding of this country.

He did more good than harm and that's all I can ever really ask of a fellow human being.
2012-12-02 11:05:04 PM  
4 votes:

Scott_Free: He was the MAN that started this country.


No, he really wasn't.

Scott_Free: He was a great man, and better then you or I will ever be.


He was an extremely complicated man, perhaps a great one, but probably not a good one.
2012-12-02 10:29:15 PM  
4 votes:

GAT_00: Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.


Adams can shut his whore mouth! Franklin was unequivocally awesome.
2012-12-03 02:36:34 AM  
3 votes:
Neither Mr. Meacham, who mostly ignores Jefferson's slave ownership, nor Mr. Wiencek, who sees him as a sort of fallen angel who comes to slavery only after discovering how profitable it could be, seem willing to confront the ugly truth...

So forget those guys and buy MY book!

...um, how about no?
2012-12-02 11:48:47 PM  
3 votes:
To add...

The man I respect more than any of them was Washington because he had to kind of pick and choose and pitch these two in fights and such. From reading his letters he felt like every President in history, presiding over a bunch of children fighting over a toy.

I mean he basically writes: "This sucks. They are all assholes. I just want to go home and make booze. *sigh* I have to do this again for four more years? Shoot me."
2012-12-02 10:26:35 PM  
3 votes:

DamnYankees: Thomas Jefferson pretty clearly didn't hate slavery. He just wrote that he did.


Ok, now you're claiming to know what was in the head of a man 200 years dead and how it contradicted what he wrote. Step back from the ledge of crazy.
2012-12-02 10:21:50 PM  
3 votes:

dickfreckle: Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

/didn't read

You basically summed up the article without reading it. I think anyone with even a cursory knowledge of the individual Fathers already knew he was a particular nasty sonofab*tch, though they certainly won't be teaching that in high school Western Civ. classes anytime soon.

My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.


Indeed. What I really hate is that the body of work is more and more often shouldered aside in favor of screaming what a blue-ribbon asshole Jefferson was.

Okay. We get it. He was an ass. Now can we please move on?
2012-12-03 12:45:57 AM  
2 votes:

NewportBarGuy: As much as we'd like to think otherwise, slavery was not the issue way back then.


It was probably a pretty big issue to the slaves.
2012-12-02 11:30:14 PM  
2 votes:

Scott_Free: Show me a person who did more.


George Washington.
2012-12-02 11:13:09 PM  
2 votes:

Benevolent Misanthrope: What I really hate is that the body of work is more and more often shouldered aside in favor of screaming what a blue-ribbon asshole Jefferson was.


This might not be the right time to mention it, but "The Blue-Ribbon Assholes" is the name of my next band.
2012-12-02 10:33:45 PM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: DamnYankees: I don't claim to know what's in his head - that's what you're doing

Did you suddenly turn back into a Republican? I'm quoting the man's writings.


"I care about the 100%."

I just quoted Mitt Romney. Do you believe him when he says that? I mean, you should - quoting people seems to be your standard for determining what they believe.
2012-12-02 10:16:26 PM  
2 votes:

GAT_00: Yeah, but it wasn't like Jefferson was the only abolitionist who never freed his slaves.


Jefferson wasn't an abolitionist. He was the opposite.
2012-12-02 10:12:03 PM  
2 votes:

bronyaur1: DamnYankees: dickfreckle: My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.

I think its because his personal actions aren't merely incidental to his espoused philosophies, but in direct contradiction to them. It's be like if Roman Polanksi was really famous for making The Accused.

This. Exactly. Nicely said.


Yeah, but it wasn't like Jefferson was the only abolitionist who never freed his slaves. Admittedly Jefferson was more...free...with his slaves than others, he's still far from alone.
2012-12-02 10:07:05 PM  
2 votes:

dickfreckle: My admiration is of Jefferson is his body of work, not the man himself. We all love certain books or even music written by reprehensible reprobates. I don't see why this should be different just because he was an eight cylinder bastard.


I think its because his personal actions aren't merely incidental to his espoused philosophies, but in direct contradiction to them. It's be like if Roman Polanksi was really famous for making The Accused.
2012-12-02 09:56:31 PM  
2 votes:
My current belief is that George Washington was gay. I am completely serious about this. The crying thing when he was picked to lead as first president about how this would ruin him is what flags.

But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

/didn't read
2012-12-04 10:29:59 AM  
1 votes:

ace in your face: Considering the backlash from the world (and even german people) after the war regarding the death camps, I would say murdering millions of people was not socially acceptable at the time. Comparing thomas Jefferson to Hitler made me laugh though.


If that were the case, there would also have been backlash against Stalin, Churchill, and Roosevelt for murdering millions of Europeans.

/try "murdering millions of your own loyal citizens over make-believe theories that are later proven false"
//there's a reason why the Nazi crimes committed against the Jews was considered worse than the crimes committed against the Communist POWs
///at least until our derranged postmodernist moral equivalence set in
2012-12-04 06:48:15 AM  
1 votes:

Marshal805: Scott_Free: DamnYankees: Scott_Free: Show me a person who did more.

George Washington.

Bullshiat. Just a surveyor with money. Not even close to what Jefferson did Read your history.
\

Washington kept a rag tag army together when they kept wanting to quit. He managed to squash an attempted Military Coup by just one speech. He became the first President with NO example to follow and did a damn good job of it. And oh yeah, he manged to score a victory over the #1 military power of that century.


So shut up, biatch.


Washington also established precedence for how the office of the President was to be run, managed a cabiet of competing ideologues without any major missteps, and knew when to leave. He was clearly the greatest of our founding fathers
2012-12-03 08:53:42 PM  
1 votes:
Jefferson would have been ruined financially and politically if he freed the slaves he inherited from his father-in-law. (Women couldn't own property, generally. Why does no one have a problem with Jefferson condoning the cruel institution of marriage?)

A political world without Jefferson probably means that Hamilton would have run amok, and our timeline would be similar to Russia's.

But I think Jefferson would have also been ruined psychologically. Sally Hemings was Martha Jefferson's half sister. They had a strong resemblance to each other and were very hot. Jefferson loved Martha deeply. He pretty much farked her to death and had serious guilt about it. He loved Sally Hemings, in turn. Hell, she looked like his wife with darker skin. Jefferson laid out his plan to Hemings when they were in Paris. She and her brother were aware that they could walk while in Paris. They both decided to return to the US as slaves. Jefferson and Hemings lived (discretely) as husband and wife for the rest of his life.

Flawed human is an oxymoron. Anyone can take things out of historical context and make Jefferson into a horrible monster. In an era when the founding fathers were trying to create and defend a new country, Jefferson laid the foundation for freedom. Would we be better off if he had freed his slaves, lost his land, and been exiled to bum-fark egypt as a broken man? No.
2012-12-03 01:00:54 PM  
1 votes:
We know Jefferson had this cold intellectual ability to compartmentalize. To speak the idealist's dreams of a perfect society, even as he tuned out the noise from the nail factory ? I guess the question we struggle with is, does the man's evils taint the great ideas, can we still aspire to Jefferson's ideals, knowing he failed to live up to them.

For me there is a parallel. The hippies in the sixties and early seventies wanted equality, freedom, and felt we had no right to wage war against the Vietnamese. Flash forward a couple of decades, and the same demographic, now with property and assets, supported the war in Iraq, reelected W, would go along with anything, just as long as the gas for their SUV's kept coming. The people who used to worship at the altar of John Lennon, now fight universal health care because it will make them have to wait longer to get care so the poor can have access at all.

A man with something to lose will drop his idealism like a hot potato if you try to shut off his Cable tv. Human Nature.
2012-12-03 11:23:18 AM  
1 votes:
Thomas Jefferson saved this country. He was one of the 3 greatest presidents we ever had. If you disagree just read his Biography instead of the hate filled articles such as this.
2012-12-03 11:08:12 AM  
1 votes:
Yeah...

he [the king of Britain] has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating it's most sacred rights of life & liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating & carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere, or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. this piratical warfare, the opprobrium of infidel powers, is the warfare of the CHRISTIAN king of Great Britain. determined to keep open a market where MEN should be bought & sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce: and that this assemblage of horrors might want no fact of distinguished die, he is now exciting those very people to rise in arms among us, and to purchase that liberty of which he has deprived them, by murdering the people upon whom he also obtruded them; thus paying off former crimes committed against the liberties of one people, with crimes which he urges them to commit against the lives of another.

That's from Jefferson's original draft of the Declaration of Independence which was removed in committee when, surprise of all surprises, South Carolina and Georgia threw a hissy fit about it. He didn't insist on its inclusion for that reason, thought South Carolina and Georgia might abstain from the coming war or join the other side as some of their citizens did do. Didn't insist that the abolition of slavery be enshrined in the constitution for the same reason. Conceded on abolition again with the Louisiana purchase and allowed the importation of slaves into the new territory, thought keeping it all free from slavery would ignite a civil war that he wasn't sure he could win. But he allowed for a glimmer of hope by keeping it half slave and half free, kept the house divided and knew a war would decide the issue. Then Lincoln, modelling himself on Jefferson and Paine, fought the war and freed the slaves and completed their work.
2012-12-03 10:45:04 AM  
1 votes:

clyph: He was, arguably, the greatest intellectual of his generation.


Franklin chuckles softly. As do Voltaire, Kant, Locke, and Hume.
2012-12-03 10:35:34 AM  
1 votes:
He was a ginger. Of course he was a soulless bastard.
2012-12-03 10:11:10 AM  
1 votes:
That is quite a conspiracy theory. It only took 200 years to uncover the true nature of Jefferson. All the historians have been lying to us apparently.
2012-12-03 09:55:33 AM  
1 votes:
The dead have always bothered the living.
2012-12-03 09:13:56 AM  
1 votes:
"Political foes were often the victim of a vulgar joke perpetrated by Jefferson during legislative debate. During such debate, once recognized by the Chair, a speaker was free to wander about the legislative chamber, while other legislators were expected to remain seated. Jefferson, who ate a diet rich with beans, cheese and eggs, discovered that he could torment those who opposed his viewpoint by strategically passing gas, oftentimes mere inches away from the nostrals of his enemy. Jefferson jokingly referred to this tactic as the "Shenandoah Fog." - Page Smith, Jefferson: A Revealing Biography
2012-12-03 08:18:46 AM  
1 votes:
www.magnetmagazine.com
2012-12-03 08:16:37 AM  
1 votes:

Ambivalence: GAT_00: Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.

Adams can shut his whore mouth! Franklin was unequivocally awesome.


The other founders were just pissed when Franklin would get them to flip their wigs and casually respond, 'You aggrieved brethren?'

In addition to bifocals, Franklin invented the troll face.
2012-12-03 08:16:22 AM  
1 votes:

Chimperror2: He's also known as the first Democrat. Not hard to understand his 'do as I say, not as I do' approach to politics once that is made clear. Subby was spot-on (Spotted Dick?).


Is there anyone lamer than trying to shoehorn his own prejudices of modern political definitions into a discussion on historical political figures?
2012-12-03 07:59:03 AM  
1 votes:
Too bad for all the left wing cocksucking assholes that history so firmly supports Jefferson's point of view. Everywhere you look, from Oakland to Detroit to Washington to Joburg, Kenya and Rhodesia, you see the same failed governments and societies repeated over and over.
2012-12-03 07:35:05 AM  
1 votes:

Chimperror2: *sigh* so you read Godwin's law but don't understand it. Go read it again. Get to the part about losing the debate and get back to us.


why didn't I have you on ignore already?
2012-12-03 07:33:32 AM  
1 votes:

rico567: Ah, yes, another tearing-down of an icon, which we must do periodically. Ho-farking-hum. It's always a shock to find out that one's gods are human. Rather like Obama in that debate. God must never be seen to stumble.


Yes. Very well said.

Liberals love viciously attacking America's Founding Fathers for nothing more than acting in accordance with the views of their time, which only by modern standards seem fatally inconsistent with their expressed ideals. But they expose their hypocrisy by voting for Obama, even though the man lost the first debate. It is totally self-contradictory to attack the Founding Fathers, only to turn around and vote Obama. Liberals are capable of finding fault only in the victims of their unrelenting hate.
2012-12-03 07:13:54 AM  
1 votes:
RTFA, sounds like the author has an agenda to press and nothing more.
2012-12-03 07:04:55 AM  
1 votes:

Scott_Free: Right. I'm wrong. They stuck their neck out and wrote a constitution for our country. Hell we must have 50 or so of them floating around somewhere. He was the MAN that started this country. Get over the things of the day that all people did. He was a great man, and better then you or I will ever be.


I've tried to roll a mental image that explains what I feel. If you see history as mankind dragging the ark of civilization out of the horror swamp of, ignorance and superstition, then you've got to admit, there are people back then who we would think of as sh*tstains, dragging hard on the ropes to pull civilization, which we all enjoy, another few inches out. And against them, a bunch trying equally hard to drag it back in.
2012-12-03 07:01:10 AM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: Scott_Free: He was the MAN that started this country.

No, he really wasn't.

Scott_Free: He was a great man, and better then you or I will ever be.

He was an extremely complicated man, perhaps a great one, but probably not a good one.


This seems fair.

Amidst all the other trenchant moral relativism in the thread, I mean.

Napoleon was seen as devil, autocrat and liberator, dependent on which part of the old class structures of Europe one was attached and occasionally simultaneously. Caesar, the same. We remember these people from the big picture perspective of their long-term effects on the world around them, and less so from their personality traits or hypocrisies.

I find "Jefferson was a dick" to be as relevant as "Hitler liked dogs". It fails to understand that individuals whose actions can be perceived as positive (Jefferson) or negative (Hitler) in the world can exhibit contradictions or complexity, when in reality, very few people are 24/7 evil bastards or paragons of virtue. To expect that is naive.
2012-12-03 06:09:43 AM  
1 votes:
Not sure why we're still pretending to be shocked when finding out that a random historical figure was actually a dick. It's... pretty much the same for every historical figure, basically it's a good thing that you don't have to be a saint to do something important.
2012-12-03 06:07:50 AM  
1 votes:

david_gaithersburg: So a story about a coddled leftard professor attempting to come to grips with the idea the world was different at some point in the past. This history professor should consider a different line of work if he can't cope with the past. May I suggest puppeteering.


It makes somewhat more sense knowing that he's a legal history professor. So it'd be about the same as receiving a course in painting from a professor of liberal arts.
2012-12-03 06:04:59 AM  
1 votes:

Scott_Free: DamnYankees: Scott_Free: Who else put us where we are now?

Every other founder? And the leaders who came after?

Right. I'm wrong. They stuck their neck out and wrote a constitution for our country. Hell we must have 50 or so of them floating around somewhere. He was the MAN that started this country. Get over the things of the day that all people did. He was a great man, and better then you or I will ever be.


I think the thing that we're missing out on here, is that most people at this time in history didn't believe that black people actually are PEOPLE. To even the people who had the balls to put this country together, black people were less than human. It took a few more generations to extend the same rights that white men got to black people, and to women, and so on and so forth.

These people had great ideas, even though some of their beliefs were completely farked. Now, we work to extend those great ideas so that they apply to everyone, and we recognize that we are all people, regardless of our skin color, our sexual plumbing, and now our sexual preferences. What will be the next group for civil liberties to be extended to?
2012-12-03 05:59:37 AM  
1 votes:
All of the founding fathers were great Presidents who paved the foundation for the greatest nation the world has ever seen. (Yes we are better than you)

Its sad that we have lost our way do to a rapidly expanding ignorant population. The movie Idiocracy comes to mind.
2012-12-03 05:47:13 AM  
1 votes:
Thomas Jefferson was a great man.
2012-12-03 05:42:51 AM  
1 votes:

Scott_Free: Jefferson was a god of his time. Compared to the rest of our founders, he was very progressive. fark all of you all who say otherwise.


The personal traits of the American Founding Fathers?

s13.postimage.org
2012-12-03 02:32:43 AM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: It was probably a pretty big issue to the slaves.


just as child labor was important to child laborers, and the lack of rights for women was important to women. But, as was said, these things weren't an issue at the time.
2012-12-03 01:20:12 AM  
1 votes:
You damn right he's a dick, he still owes me $2.
2012-12-02 11:58:54 PM  
1 votes:

NewportBarGuy: GAT_00: Stories say that Washington was offered just that post-war. They are largely unconfirmed though.

If Hamilton got all that he wanted, that's precisely with the Executive would have become.

It was a war over who would govern the country, the few or the many. Today, we can see who has won that debate.


No I mean supposedly a handful of ex-Minutemen came up to Washington and asked him to lead a coup to install himself King, because they didn't trust the ineffective AoC government.
2012-12-02 11:44:22 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: at the very least if we're going to say that having two arguments is good, we can agree the better argument should be remembered more fondly, right?


Heh... Nice. No, I'll stick with my initial observation that we needed both of them to create the foundation for the strength we have enjoyed. I tend more to Jefferson, but only because from my reading Hamilton struck me as a guy who just didn't give a sh*t about the common man. Economically, I prefer Jefferson's vision over Hamilton's eagerness to hand the reigns of power to the financial industry.

On the whole, if Jefferson had his way on everything, we would be VERY weak at a crucial time and it could have caused the whole experiment to collapse. If Hamilton had is way on everything... Well, we'd have replaced King George with King George Washington.
2012-12-02 11:35:27 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: Scott_Free: Show me a person who did more.

George Washington.


Bullshiat. Just a surveyor with money. Not even close to what Jefferson did Read your history.
\
2012-12-02 11:30:02 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: Alexander Hamilton was basically right about everything. I'm not sure why this is good.


Agrarian vs. Mercantilism. States Rights Vs. Federal Government. I will absolutely agree with you that today we are living in a Hamiltonian Republic... However, that you had a man like Jefferson to fight for the agrarian and state interests, I think, made us stronger in the beginning... Especially as we were developing as a nation.

I think it was perfect to have them battle it out like they did. We got a little bit of both and went from there.
2012-12-02 11:00:03 PM  
1 votes:

revrendjim: Ambivalence: GAT_00: Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.

Adams can shut his whore mouth! Franklin was unequivocally awesome.

Franklin was a huge dick, but rather than denying it he reveled in it. Being an ornery bastard was part of his public persona.


Actually, Adams felt he was turning over control of the country's future to France, which he was strenuously opposed to.
2012-12-02 10:54:18 PM  
1 votes:

Scott_Free: Who else put us where we are now?


Every other founder? And the leaders who came after?
2012-12-02 10:47:57 PM  
1 votes:
Not a bible toting biatch. He thought for himself, and shaped our country based on beliefs that were based on human principles. That for his time was very progressive.
2012-12-02 10:44:40 PM  
1 votes:

Scott_Free: Jefferson was a god of his time. Compared to the rest of our founders, he was very progressive. fark all of you all who say otherwise.


In what way was he more progressive than the other founders? He was certainly more eloquent, but progressive?
2012-12-02 10:42:09 PM  
1 votes:
Jefferson was a god of his time. Compared to the rest of our founders, he was very progressive. fark all of you all who say otherwise.
2012-12-02 10:32:13 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: I don't claim to know what's in his head - that's what you're doing


Did you suddenly turn back into a Republican? I'm quoting the man's writings.
2012-12-02 10:30:21 PM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: DamnYankees: Thomas Jefferson pretty clearly didn't hate slavery. He just wrote that he did.

Ok, now you're claiming to know what was in the head of a man 200 years dead and how it contradicted what he wrote. Step back from the ledge of crazy.


I don't claim to know what's in his head - that's what you're doing. I'm just looking at his actual actions.

You're the one saying that - despite owning slaves, treating them badly, failing to free them, and failing to take any actual steps in his life towards abolition - he hated slavery in his heart. And you claim to know this because...he said so a couple time?

Think about what you're saying, please.
2012-12-02 10:25:20 PM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: He was and wasn't. He hated slavery, but didn't want to end it for fear of mass revolts.


Thomas Jefferson pretty clearly didn't hate slavery. He just wrote that he did.

Jefferson is an interesting figure, and certain parts of him are admirable, but I find it a little uneasy that people tend to be willing to give his words more credence than his actions. Jefferson never did a single thing, as far as I'm aware, to end slavery. He took zero positive steps in that regards, and was not a particularly good slave-master. He abused his actual slaves, both sexually and otherwise. There's simply no reason to think he was a secret lover of black people at heart, any more than you actually believe Mitt Romney loves poor people.
2012-12-02 10:10:26 PM  
1 votes:

DamnYankees: GAT_00: Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

According to Adams he was also more than a little self-centered and self-serving who wasn't interested in doing the hard work.

To be fair, John Adams was, by all accounts, an annoying, self-centered dude also who thought everyone was lazier than him.


Yeah, but reading the bio McCullough wrote about him, the two people who really stick out are Jefferson and Franklin, both of which he pretty much loathed, at least from the Revolution era.
2012-12-02 10:07:41 PM  
1 votes:

GAT_00: Mangoose: But yes, Jefferson was a weird, strange, corrupt, slave-owning freak of a human being. His saving grace was his intellect. To which, one day, hopefully, we will be indebted.

According to Adams he was also more than a little self-centered and self-serving who wasn't interested in doing the hard work.


To be fair, John Adams was, by all accounts, an annoying, self-centered dude also who thought everyone was lazier than him.
 
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