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(NPR)   France's president says homework "penalizes students with difficult home lives." So clearly, the solution is to help improve the home life. Wait, no, it's getting rid of homework entirely   (npr.org) divider line 39
    More: Fail, social democracies, Bryant Gumbel  
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3777 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Dec 2012 at 12:18 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-12-02 11:40:33 AM
8 votes:
Assigned homework is bullshiat.
If they can't fit all of the learnin they need into an 8 hour day then they're not doing it right.
2012-12-02 12:25:44 PM
6 votes:
We need to return to actually teaching critical thinking and imparting knowledge rather than rote memorization to pass standardized tests.
2012-12-02 11:40:49 AM
6 votes:
If the teacher can't finish the job in school, then the school day needs to be extended. Take-home homework is mostly to punish the parents. I can see it for math and reading and possibly writing. All the rest of it is complete horseshiat.
2012-12-02 12:43:23 PM
5 votes:

APE992: Then there is the whole writing paper thing that never made sense to me. Most people don't spend their lives writing proposals, dissertations, so I've never understood why high school kids have to write essays comparing/contrasting two books with their teacher offering vague feedback that doesn't really direct how to improve your thought processes to write a better paper later.


A hell of a lot of people spend a lot of time and effort writing stuff like grant proposals. Scientists do, anybody in the nonprofit world begging for money does, people in any sort of business looking to get a project started need to be able to argue their case. And even if you don't write often, being able to coherently express yourself in the English language is an incredibly valuable, and, among certain technical classes, vanishingly rare skill.

And writing papers forces you to build an argument, and learn how to use evidence to support that argument. The feedback isn't the point so much as the practice is. The subject matter is really quite irrelevant, it's the process of writing and argumentation that's important. We use literature to teach those skills because literature offers interesting insights into our culture and society, which are damn good things to understand. It's also supposed to be interesting to read. We also teach those skills in history and civics class, and a good science teacher should assign some writing on occasion as well.
2012-12-02 12:25:45 PM
4 votes:
Will intelligence only be judged on repetition and memorization? Will we still force everyone to learn at the same speed even though we learn at different ones? Are people that are supposed to be learning trades left to die and join gangs like they always do?
2012-12-02 12:25:45 PM
4 votes:
A 20 year old mother with a 7 year old son.

Urgh.
2012-12-02 11:50:58 AM
4 votes:
Parents in good homes will give their children interesting and educational things to do with their time, and the cycle of inequality will continue.

Maybe we can hire people to disrupt those with easy home lives.
2012-12-02 12:55:22 PM
3 votes:
Typical socialist - everyone has to be the same. And because the only relevant exception is in the direction of smart, we all have to be dumb.
2012-12-02 12:53:31 PM
3 votes:
Wow, amazed that the attitude is anti-homework here. If I didn't have homework in school, I would have been absolutely worthless in college. Homework is a great character builder and teaches kids that life can suck sometimes.
2012-12-02 12:37:09 PM
3 votes:

links136: Ed Willy: Actually, trying to fix the circle of poverty and bad home life is much harder for the government to do. Government and schools alone cannot fix the bad thinking patterns that trap people in a cycle of shiat jobs and poor decisions.

What, you think schools don't have any affect on thinking patterns?


Math class word problems should consist of: Jenny has a kid at 16 that costs $5000 in hospital bills. She has to pay $50 a day to feed and cloth the child. Her baby daddy makes $5.50 at McDonalds and works 30 hours a week. How much does their life suck? What if they had waited 10 years?
2012-12-02 12:25:28 PM
3 votes:
Actually, trying to fix the circle of poverty and bad home life is much harder for the government to do. Government and schools alone cannot fix the bad thinking patterns that trap people in a cycle of shiat jobs and poor decisions.
2012-12-02 01:10:08 PM
2 votes:
Hero tag? Homework is a concept mostly practiced in America. Of course our record of generating 100% super geniuses dictates we should keep doing it, amirite?

Homework was graded in high school but I blew it off. Still passed. I didn't learn much there but still went to college based on ACT scores. Had plenty of homework in college (not graded) and graduated. College homework seemed to matter; it related to learning. Not so with high school or grade school busy work in my experience.

Kids don't like doing it. Teachers hate grading it. And it seems parents are doing most of it. Why don't we just shut down this national joke?
2012-12-02 01:04:36 PM
2 votes:
For all of you farkers who think that homework is unnecessary and useless, I'd like you to go do something. Go find yourself a teacher that operates outside of a school environment - a sports coach, or a piano teacher or something. Now make your same argument to them, but replace "homework" with "practice".

And essays and disserations teach us to use critical thinking and be able to back up our statements and arguments using facts and the opinions of credible sources. Otherwise, we'll all end up like that "study it out" lady.
2012-12-02 12:43:57 PM
2 votes:
My issue isn't necessarily with homework as a whole. It's when kids move on from elementary school and start having multiple teachers, all of which assign projects and assignments at the same time. I finished high school in 2005, and in all seriousness, it was worse than university in regards to the work load.

Maybe they should just limit teachers to the amount of homework they can hand out per year. An 8-hour school day can quickly turn into a 12-hour one -- now imagine that every weekday. It takes its toll on people.

It's not like they're getting paid to go to school...
2012-12-02 12:41:18 PM
2 votes:
homework was useless. i never "learned" anything while doing homework. the real use for homework was reading textbooks or lit books, since they never gave you time in school to actually read them in their entirety. of course to make sure you read your textbook, you would have to answer questions on a quiz, or write a paper. by high school my idea of homework was finding someone who i could copy the answers from during homeroom. and thankfully by college most professors stopped that bull shiat and only gave reading assignments, which were cool by me.
2012-12-02 12:33:33 PM
2 votes:
How 'bout this: more serious assignments that actually engage students (papers and the like), less make work assignments. You're in the classroom for what, 30, 40 hours a week? Which is what, three times what you spend in college?

Yeah, additional take home work after that is a crock. Stop using homework as a crutch for your shiatty teaching, it just punishes kids and generally adds very little to their understanding. Kids need practice sets in math? Have them do them in class once a week. With you, the teacher, there to help them out right when they need you, as every study ever done on the matter says is much more effective than having them struggle on their own at home. Need them to dedicate significant time to writing a 5 page paper? Okay, have them put together an outline in class, but you can send that one home. But there's no justification for the routine time suck that a lot of homework has become.
2012-12-02 12:26:59 PM
2 votes:

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Assigned homework is bullshiat.
If they can't fit all of the learnin they need into an 8 hour day then they're not doing it right.


I've always felt that homework was to force kids to spend time outside of class doing what they should've done inside. If you do math outside of class you may have NOBODY to ask for help with and most math books are written from the perspective of someone writing a math book rather than someone wanting to learn math. I get that you need practice to reinforce math but math isn't something you can go ask grandma about. History paper? Damn right Grandma is a 1st hand source of information.

I've had professors who use shiatty books to try to reinforce what they teach in class. What they teach in class may amount to 75% of what is in the book and they never test or even talk about that last 25% but damn if you don't need to read everything and pray you learned enough to pass a test (Hint: I didn't because this method sucks). Then on top of it all the book is written in a perspective of being a seasoned engineer and fark you if you don't understand what it says.

Then there is the whole writing paper thing that never made sense to me. Most people don't spend their lives writing proposals, dissertations, so I've never understood why high school kids have to write essays comparing/contrasting two books with their teacher offering vague feedback that doesn't really direct how to improve your thought processes to write a better paper later.
2012-12-02 12:25:11 PM
2 votes:
The problem is not assigning homework, it is grading it. If you cannot determine the appropriate grade based on in class performance (outside projects/term papers) then you are doing it wrong. So assign all the homework you want, and the student should do as much as they want, but grading it is for losers.
2012-12-02 11:24:45 AM
2 votes:
This is not necessarily a FAIL. This is not a new concept. It just hasn't been tried much (if at all) since the beginning of the Cold War.
2012-12-02 11:10:50 PM
1 votes:
Homework is a good tool; its not a relacement for quality instruction, but it supplements. Some things simply need reinforcement; grinding it out, repetitious working, memorization. Yes, that can be boring. Boo farking hoo. Deal with it. School is not for entertainment. It is not primarily for enjoyment; its for preparing youself to be useful, and not a lazy worthless oxygen theif.

From the article
"It's much more about, sit down and we'll fill your empty heads with our rather dull and old-fashioned knowledge."

Yes..that is what school is about. Pansies.
2012-12-02 05:15:35 PM
1 votes:
I taught music in the inner-city for 10 years. One of the biggest challenges was getting students to practice at home. Most of them lived in small apartments and/or had multiple siblings, making it damn-near impossible. I used most of my after-school and vacation time getting kids ready for all-state and other concerts because all of our practice had to be done outside of class-time, but away from their homes.

It's tough. Some kids don't even have the space at home, like a table big enough to do their homework on. These scenarios are things that most people don't consider, but together contribute to lower test scores and achievement.
2012-12-02 02:39:51 PM
1 votes:

Pray 4 Mojo: It's cute that most of you think school is about education... and not about training young minds how to jump through societal hoops and be good, obedient citizens.


For most people that is the best they can hope for anyway.
2012-12-02 02:13:47 PM
1 votes:
The race to the bottom continues.
2012-12-02 02:11:12 PM
1 votes:

Erom: Wow, amazed that the attitude is anti-homework here. If I didn't have homework in school, I would have been absolutely worthless in college. Homework is a great character builder and teaches kids that life can suck sometimes.


Don't they spend all day learning that in school?
2012-12-02 02:00:14 PM
1 votes:
Homework (that is actually graded) reinforces in-class learning...is it really that hard to understand? You know, EXPERIENCE. Those griping that homework is a sign of failed teaching obviously sucked at school (or their kid sucks at school).

The teacher will not be standing by as these kids take the standardized tests required to graduate from high school nor when they take the standardized tests required by college admissions (both undergraduate and graduate). You can argue all you want about the role standardized tests should play, but the teachers have little say in whether little snowflake gets into Harvard, Georgetown or the University of the Pacific. 

Again, homework is necessary to confirm that Johnny or Jenny Snowflake understood what was taught. It is a method of feedback used to improve learning. It is not a punishment or a tool to keep the poor impoverished. The fact that so many want to scrap it, and then piss and moan about how schools let our kids down, is pathetic.
2012-12-02 01:54:57 PM
1 votes:

dave2198: Let me get this straight... countries are falling behind in math..
math requires repetition to learn...
decrease the amount of repetition...
better math scores?


If it were that simple, don't you think with all the homework and repetition there wouldn't be any problems with math. Or is there more to understanding math then simply "do as many of these questions that you don't understand as you possibly can".

If you don't understand something to begin with, doing more of it won't help any.
2012-12-02 01:19:31 PM
1 votes:

ApatheticMonkey: For all of you farkers who think that homework is unnecessary and useless, I'd like you to go do something. Go find yourself a teacher that operates outside of a school environment - a sports coach, or a piano teacher or something. Now make your same argument to them, but replace "homework" with "practice".

And essays and disserations teach us to use critical thinking and be able to back up our statements and arguments using facts and the opinions of credible sources. Otherwise, we'll all end up like that "study it out" lady.



While everything you said is true, there's a difference between practice and busywork, and not all teachers have the skill to distinguish between the two. Multiplication tables? Fine. Persuasive essay? Fine. Look up these 20 words in the dictionary and write down their definitions longhand? What? If you're trying to teach vocabulary,use the words in a sentence, and teach language roots and their word structure. (What does 'rectangle' 'rectify' and 'direction' have in common? If you're reeling especially lokisome, add 'erection' in there and leave them to titter.) This actually accomplishes its stated purpose, besides taking far less time, and is also more likely to lead to later success. This is what the French leaders were complaining about in TFA, when we rely on filling people's heads with rote memorization instead of teaching overall knowledge. After all, which option is more likely to allow you to use 'rectify' later in life? Learning the use of phonemes, allowing for outright wordsmithing, or strange buffoonery, such as memorizing a list of words for 24 hours which are forgotten in 72?
2012-12-02 01:05:56 PM
1 votes:

cptjeff: Erom: Wow, amazed that the attitude is anti-homework here. If I didn't have homework in school, I would have been absolutely worthless in college. Homework is a great character builder and teaches kids that life can suck sometimes.

Ah, character building. The traditional excuse given when you have no good reason, but want a kid to do something anyway.

I did find in college after blowing off a pretty fair amount of homework in school prior. I had simply learned early to distinguish between what was important for me to understand the material and bullshiat make work.


Yeah, learning how to manage a deadline, prioritize work, and complete assigned tasks in adolescence is a complete waste of time. Not only that, but making students apply what they've learned in class to homework in order to reinforce lessons is stupid, kids automatically remember everything they learned when the bell sounds at 3:00.
2012-12-02 12:58:18 PM
1 votes:

Erom: Wow, amazed that the attitude is anti-homework here. If I didn't have homework in school, I would have been absolutely worthless in college. Homework is a great character builder and teaches kids that life can suck sometimes.


Ah, character building. The traditional excuse given when you have no good reason, but want a kid to do something anyway.

I did find in college after blowing off a pretty fair amount of homework in school prior. I had simply learned early to distinguish between what was important for me to understand the material and bullshiat make work.
2012-12-02 12:56:56 PM
1 votes:
More and more it seem school is just day-care and the homework is meant to be the learning?

I've known medical students, veterinary students, and engineers who spend significantly less time in class than a 2nd grader. I'm not really sure what kids are doing in school all day, but I'm pretty sure it's not really learning in the traditional sense.

At most universities a 'full-time' student is one who will have '15-credit hours' and that should translate, roughly, into 15 hours in class, each week. That's roughly *three hours* per day. And this is for serious university types.
2012-12-02 12:55:12 PM
1 votes:

cptjeff: Kids need practice sets in math? Have them do them in class once a week.


You can not properly teach math with one practice set per week. No way. They would be struggling to maintain what they were already taught.

cptjeff: But there's no justification for the routine time suck that a lot of homework has become.


Sure there is. The school district can't afford the 1:1 attention each kid needs, so they send Junior home with homework and recruit the parent's help. This is part of the reason why kids with educated parents and a stable household do better in school. They can't shorten the school day in light of this either, because working class people are basically depending on public school for daycare purposes.
2012-12-02 12:50:51 PM
1 votes:
Some topics/skills require sitting down and reading or practicing for long periods of time.

That isn't going to stop any time soon.
2012-12-02 12:47:55 PM
1 votes:

vermicious k'nid: Homework is a failed throwback from the 1800s. Get rid of it already.


Exactly, just like the concept of hard work paying back those who invest in it, and that those who make an effort are better rewarded than those who slack around.
2012-12-02 12:45:03 PM
1 votes:
France is going down the crapper with their bullshiat socialist government. They are even threatening Arcelor-Mittal with stealing their french assets from them if they fire french workers from their foundries in france. What a bunch of idiots.
2012-12-02 12:45:00 PM
1 votes:

nmemkha: We need to return to actually teaching critical thinking and imparting knowledge rather than rote memorization to pass standardized tests.

2012-12-02 12:40:18 PM
1 votes:

RandomExcess: The problem is not assigning homework, it is grading it. If you cannot determine the appropriate grade based on in class performance (outside projects/term papers) then you are doing it wrong. So assign all the homework you want, and the student should do as much as they want, but grading it is for losers.


I would think that in most cases, the teacher knows what grade a student gets regardless of homework. Students at that age need to see immediate consequences of their work. They can do that if they see an A or an F on the top of a page. College kids know that they need to study to succeed, but elementary school children are incapable of that kind of long term thinking, so you need to give them that checkpoint.

For some kids, homework is probably unnecessary, but will vary student to student, and likely subject to subject. A kid may need that additional exercise in math, but be totally fine in history. Unfortunately, with 30+ kids in a class, that individualized approach would be impossible.
2012-12-02 12:39:11 PM
1 votes:
Keep in mind that some districts mandate homework. My district requires a minimum of 3 homework assignments per week per class. As the teacher I wouldn't choose to do that if I had any say in the matter.
2012-12-02 12:37:08 PM
1 votes:
This is true. My mom smoked up the house and there weren't enough desks for the kids in it. My narcissistic-narcissistic mom and manic-depressive dad were always raving in it. Anyway, physiologically, even most adults are only capable of five hours of concentration a day, tops.
2012-12-02 11:52:15 AM
1 votes:

Snarfangel: Parents in good homes will give their children interesting and educational things to do with their time


The rest will be spent on homework.
 
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