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(NPR)   France's president says homework "penalizes students with difficult home lives." So clearly, the solution is to help improve the home life. Wait, no, it's getting rid of homework entirely   (npr.org) divider line 227
    More: Fail, social democracies, Bryant Gumbel  
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3781 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Dec 2012 at 12:18 PM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-02 04:05:48 PM  

Gdalescrboz: Sounds like a solution liberals would come up with. "If it's hard, dont do it."


Conservative solution: Even if it's boring and tedious and might even due more harm than it does good, keep doing it that way because that's the way it is, so that's the way it always should be.
 
2012-12-02 04:07:10 PM  

DarkSoulNoHope: Gdalescrboz: Sounds like a solution liberals would come up with. "If it's hard, dont do it."

Conservative solution: Even if it's boring and tedious and might even due more harm than it does good, keep doing it that way because that's the way it is, so that's the way it always should be.


I need to do my homework more, brb! :)
 
2012-12-02 04:08:24 PM  

LiberalEastCoastElitist: links136: As an example, when I was in machinist school, I knew what all the tools looked like and how to use them and what they did, got 98% on the practical part. I couldn't remember the names or terms of them to save my life. Of course the written tests involved remembering the names, guess how well I did on that part, despite knowing how to actually do the work perfectly? I always see the physical concept in my head, and always struggle to put the word to it.

I also struggle heavily to do tasks when told how to do it, but when i'm PHYSICALLY shown how to do it, I usually don't even need them to finish before I completely understand it. Why yes, my family including my dad were hunters and trappers all their lives, the same as anyone else living on reserves. Another one is the difference in communication between cultures. Not understood in the slightest, and you see it everyday in racial tension.

Sounds like a learning disorder to me.


A learning disorder that got me 98% on the practical part of machining? Some disorder.
 
2012-12-02 04:19:19 PM  

cptjeff: LiberalEastCoastElitist: Right now that teacher is using her 40 minutes a day with the class of 30 students teaching new concepts and going over the homework.

Not really- the teacher is spending that 40 minutes a day repeating the same stuff she's taught for the previous three or four days in an effort to catch kids up. And going over the homework. So why not spend less time repeating the same crap and more time working with students to ensure that they actually get it so you don't have to spend a whole week going back over the exact same material?


40 minutes divided by 30 students = 1 minute 20 seconds per student.

If you're a little lucky, and you have a smaller class of 20 students, and a longer period of 55 minutes, you still only have 2 minutes, 45 seconds to spend with each student.

I'm not suggesting that one-on-one time isn't important. It is. But instruction time is at a severe premium as it is, and you can only subdivide it so many ways. Sooner or later, a student _has_ to learn to work independently and to persevere when things get tough.

Generally speaking, though, I'll assign modest (and relevant) classroom work and give time to work on it in class. And I'll try to give just enough so that the students who get it quickly and can function independently have little-to-nothing to bring home with them, while students who can stand the extra practice can work on it a little more at home.
 
2012-12-02 04:22:22 PM  
The article says that the amount of work is such that kids don't have time for the arts, music, or sports. These activities are helpful to emotional and physical development (and health, for that matter), plus they can greatly enhance quality of life.

It's a bit ironic that such a problem would occur in Paris, a city known for its artistic influence.
 
2012-12-02 04:22:58 PM  

BigNumber12: links136: This is assuming you understand the concepts to begin with.

Homework is the means of discovering which aspects of a concept the student isn't getting, so that follow-up effort can be directed in a meaningful fashion.


links136: Words are an imaginary concept. Ownership of land is an imaginary concept. Value is an imaginary concept. X and Y are imaginary concepts.

Just look at when europeans came over and started owning all the land, native americans were baffled as it was a concept that just flew over their heads as native americans are a practical people that base things on what's around them. The idea of ownership was foreign and they were taken advantage of because of it. They didn't have writing, just oral tradition. A physical car is a practical concept, the word car is imaginary. Trades are based on practical concepts, x and y arn't practical concepts. Some people learn better that way, others learn better based on practical applications with physical examples to put relatively in their brains and work better with their hands. Those people usually end up joining gangs or committing crime because they're basically left to die in the school system. It's hard to explain because people can really only think in one or the other.

Seriously, what are you advocating for? Are you holding pre-Columbian American society as an ideal? You say that they're a "practical" people who based things on what's around them - maybe that's a big part of why they were centuries, sometimes millennia behind Europeans in the development of technology and medicine. Our society today depends on identifying and developing people who can think beyond just the things they they can pick up with their hands - if we stop doing that, to be fair to the "practical" people, we'd better get comfortable sliding backwards towards primitive living.

And you cite a car as a "practical" concept, but that's not true at all. A car only "does" anything because of hundreds and hundreds ...


This is my point exactly. Everything I tried to explain went right over your head. Native Americans have been hunters and trappers in their whole existence. This is true today. My Grandfather did it, my father did it, I have uncles and cousins that sill hunt and trap. We are people that work with our hands, our thinking hasn't changed. We never had books or writing, we hunted with our eyes and hands, besides the fact natives were behind because they had no trade routes with any other civilization and were isolated with the rest of the world.

My point is that when you look at a car, thats the physical part of it. The actual word car is an imaginary concept created to represent the physical part of it. This is why trades are disappearing. No one can even grasp the difference between a physical concept and imaginary one. You can't. If you were to show me a car, you would show me a physical car. Could you show me the word car? You can only say it.

The fact you don't understand this difference is exactly why trades are disappearing. They will continue to disappear until this is understood, like in germany. I'm not saying we have to be fair to trades people, i'm saying we have to identify them and teach them to their strengths. This is not done whatsoever.

I mean, you think construction is done with thoughts or your hands?
 
2012-12-02 04:27:45 PM  

LiberalEastCoastElitist: links136: As an example, when I was in machinist school, I knew what all the tools looked like and how to use them and what they did, got 98% on the practical part. I couldn't remember the names or terms of them to save my life. Of course the written tests involved remembering the names, guess how well I did on that part, despite knowing how to actually do the work perfectly? I always see the physical concept in my head, and always struggle to put the word to it.

I also struggle heavily to do tasks when told how to do it, but when i'm PHYSICALLY shown how to do it, I usually don't even need them to finish before I completely understand it. Why yes, my family including my dad were hunters and trappers all their lives, the same as anyone else living on reserves. Another one is the difference in communication between cultures. Not understood in the slightest, and you see it everyday in racial tension.

Sounds like a learning disorder to me.


On another note, this is another huge issue in western civilization. We expect everyone to think and act the exact same way. If they have different strengths and understand things in a different way? Learning disorder.
 
2012-12-02 04:30:24 PM  

links136: A learning disorder that got me 98% on the practical part of machining? Some disorder.


Yes, look up declarative vs. procedural memory.
 
2012-12-02 04:35:41 PM  

jst3p:

Reality seems to disagree with you, as it relates to education. Someone above mentioned Finland, here is some detail:

The school day starts ...


It also looks like the Finnish school system is set up differently than ours here. Over a third of their school day is based around arts/sports/craftwork, while those subjects are being increasingly squeezed out of the school day around here. I would argue that these kids are getting alot of their skills via interdisciplinary study. If you look at the subjects in there, you'll find there's a LOT more math etc going in there than meets the eye. It doesn't hurt that these subjects are also the 'fun' subjects that can keep students engaged in learning.

Also note that their teachers are far more educated than those here. ALL of their teachers have a masters degree in something. They also have a lot more flexibility in their teaching methods and curricula. There aren't any defined metrics that they have to answer to, so they can adjust teaching to bring students up to where they need to be, while focusing less on having to be able to check off that box on their own paperwork.

All of that combined reduces the need for outside study.

Also, that pertains to kids ten years old and under. I don't know a lot of teachers who give a lot of homework to kids that age either; most of that stuff should be dead simple for the kids. I work with junior high school students currently, so that's where my perspective is coming from.
 
2012-12-02 04:39:30 PM  
I am all for this. With school, I never wanted to be there in the first pace, then they just send you home at the end of the day with more work so that you can continue to have your life ruined and no hope of escape.

Now let us bear in mind also I was completely traumatized by the whole school thing and am currently of the belief that it should be eliminated entirely. So many people think made-for-tv movies with historical settings are 'historical record' and that condoms don't work and dinosaurs lived with Jesus that it shows just how good of a job those places are doing at educating the populace, anyway.
 
2012-12-02 04:40:36 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Assigned homework is bullshiat.
If they can't fit all of the learnin they need into an 8 hour day then they're not doing it right.


Summer vacation is also bullschitt. If they cannot fit all the learning they need into 9 months then they are not doing it right. School should be taught year round.
 
2012-12-02 04:41:18 PM  

nmemkha: We need to return to actually teaching critical thinking and imparting knowledge rather than rote memorization to pass standardized tests.


I bet you have that phrase memorized, amiright?
 
2012-12-02 04:41:26 PM  

LiberalEastCoastElitist: links136: A learning disorder that got me 98% on the practical part of machining? Some disorder.

Yes, look up declarative vs. procedural memory.


So my learning disability is that i'm a visual thinker? Is that what you're saying? I'm simply better at using my hands and thinking in visual terms. It's not that I can't think in other ways, i'm just not nearly as effective at it, so I play to my strengths. Is that really a disorder, or just having different strengths and abilities?
 
2012-12-02 04:43:28 PM  

MooseUpNorth: 40 minutes divided by 30 students = 1 minute 20 seconds per student.


Not every student is going to need the help every session. If more than one or two has an issue with a problem, you gov over it on the board. If you have 30 kids, 10 might ask a question on any given day. 40 minutes divided by 10 is 4 minutes. That's plenty to go over a problem or two. And they're learning the material that you might have dedicated a week to in the past in two or three days, since you're identifying and fixing the problems they're having with the material early- which gives you a lot of extra time that you didn't have before since you were busy talking past bored kids.

LiberalEastCoastElitist: When I was a relatively motivated college student taking calculus with a somewhat shaky foundation I probably got two hours a week help from my math major housemate and two hours a week from the math lab. I still pulled down a B. I don't see the time requirement for a weak student struggling in algebra to be any less.


That's where this changes things though- you would have a much, much stronger foundation to work from, since problems would have been caught and worked through early. If you catch things early, you keep them from escalating into much worse problems. So you don't need the massive time commitment that you need to address a struggling student now.


MooseUpNorth: while students who can stand the extra practice can work on it a little more at home.


This is a big part of what bugs me. Practice isn't the key. Understanding the concept is. Practice can force it, but if there's something that kid isn't getting, they don't have any way to figure out what they're doing wrong until they get back to school, where the teacher will usually fail to help them anyway- they'll see the problem, mark it wrong, and never really explain the material, and that kid will fall behind. It accumulates. If they have no one at home who can coach them through it and help them figure out what they're missing (and let's take a wild guess here and say that it's much more likely poor kids will fall into that category) having that sheet in front of them at home is just going to get them frustrated, and angry at their inability to do the work, and it won't help them one iota. You can't practice something you don't know how to do.

Rote homework just compounds problems for kids that don't know how to do it, and it's just an unnecessary nuisance for kids who do.
 
2012-12-02 04:43:53 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Assigned homework is bullshiat.
If they can't fit all of the learnin they need into an 8 hour day then they're not doing it right.


Came here to day this, more or less. There is no reason kids need two hours of homework just to fill their evenings.
 
2012-12-02 04:49:00 PM  

Aikidogamer: Eddie Adams from Torrance: Assigned homework is bullshiat.
If they can't fit all of the learnin they need into an 8 hour day then they're not doing it right.

Came here to day this, more or less. There is no reason kids need two hours of homework just to fill their evenings.


That's really what it boils down to. If you can't get kids to retain information with the amount of time kids are already committing in school, than something about your teaching sucks.
 
2012-12-02 04:56:38 PM  

jst3p: Reality seems to disagree with you, as it relates to education. Someone above mentioned Finland, here is some detail:

The school day starts ...


Okay, I just read the original article, (What? This is Fark. What did you expect?) and it's mostly talking about little kids. The way people were talking about essays and dissertations made me think we were talking about high school. (Hold on. Does that mean that some places are making little kids write essays?) From an education perspective, little kids operate differently from what I've been talking about. I deal mostly with kids that are older than that, and with the volume of stuff they need to learn, homework is something that has to be done. However, with kids in elementary school, the main goal is to get them excited about learning, and the rest will take its course. Hell, I've helped teach those grades, and the only "homework" we gave out was a: optional, and b: self directed. If we're giving kids who haven't reached puberty substational amounts of homework, then we're doing it wrong.

I disagree with abolishing it for jr high/middle school kids though. it needs to be phased in around that time, otherwise high school will hit them like a brick.
 
2012-12-02 04:59:09 PM  

ApatheticMonkey: jst3p: Reality seems to disagree with you, as it relates to education. Someone above mentioned Finland, here is some detail:

The school day starts ...

Okay, I just read the original article, (What? This is Fark. What did you expect?) and it's mostly talking about little kids. The way people were talking about essays and dissertations made me think we were talking about high school. (Hold on. Does that mean that some places are making little kids write essays?) From an education perspective, little kids operate differently from what I've been talking about. I deal mostly with kids that are older than that, and with the volume of stuff they need to learn, homework is something that has to be done. However, with kids in elementary school, the main goal is to get them excited about learning, and the rest will take its course. Hell, I've helped teach those grades, and the only "homework" we gave out was a: optional, and b: self directed. If we're giving kids who haven't reached puberty substational amounts of homework, then we're doing it wrong.

I disagree with abolishing it for jr high/middle school kids though. it needs to be phased in around that time, otherwise high school will hit them like a brick.


This is Fark. The conversation isn't at all restricted to the topic of the actual article.
 
2012-12-02 05:02:50 PM  
Why send them to school at all? Kids with a bad home life suffer in school, better not punish them and send them to school. Farm hd hi a new low for setting standards for kids. The baby Boomer generation may yet be one upped as the worst generation of parents.
 
2012-12-02 05:04:47 PM  

links136: So my learning disability is that i'm a visual thinker? Is that what you're saying? I'm simply better at using my hands and thinking in visual terms. It's not that I can't think in other ways, i'm just not nearly as effective at it, so I play to my strengths. Is that really a disorder, or just having different strengths and abilities?


Some would consider failing a test despite knowing the material because you can't recall names of items you've been working with for weeks a disorder, yes. No need to get butthurt, it just means you're weak in one or two areas.

cptjeff: Not every student is going to need the help every session. If more than one or two has an issue with a problem, you gov over it on the board. If you have 30 kids, 10 might ask a question on any given day. 40 minutes divided by 10 is 4 minutes. That's plenty to go over a problem or two. And they're learning the material that you might have dedicated a week to in the past in two or three days, since you're identifying and fixing the problems they're having with the material early- which gives you a lot of extra time that you didn't have before since you were busy talking past bored kids.


Did you know that 50% of the population has a double digit IQ? Have you ever tried to teach long division to someone with a double digit IQ? It cannot be done in a couple minutes a day. You can't drill the multiplication table into someone's head in a couple minutes a day. If 10 are asking for help, that means 10 didn't ask for help because they didn't need it and the remaining 10 aren't asking for help because they didn't attempt the homework and really just need someone to sit them down and hold their hand and make them do the homework.

cptjeff: That's where this changes things though- you would have a much, much stronger foundation to work from, since problems would have been caught and worked through early. If you catch things early, you keep them from escalating into much worse problems. So you don't need the massive time commitment that you need to address a struggling student now.


6ish hours/week to hack a 4 credit calculus class is a massive time commitment? My generation is soft.
 
2012-12-02 05:08:01 PM  
The less individual work and more group work is the mantra of the left. This way the dummies don't look as dumb on paper.
 
2012-12-02 05:10:38 PM  

ApatheticMonkey: jst3p: Reality seems to disagree with you, as it relates to education. Someone above mentioned Finland, here is some detail:

The school day starts ...

Okay, I just read the original article, (What? This is Fark. What did you expect?) and it's mostly talking about little kids. The way people were talking about essays and dissertations made me think we were talking about high school. (Hold on. Does that mean that some places are making little kids write essays?) From an education perspective, little kids operate differently from what I've been talking about. I deal mostly with kids that are older than that, and with the volume of stuff they need to learn, homework is something that has to be done. However, with kids in elementary school, the main goal is to get them excited about learning, and the rest will take its course. Hell, I've helped teach those grades, and the only "homework" we gave out was a: optional, and b: self directed. If we're giving kids who haven't reached puberty substational amounts of homework, then we're doing it wrong.

I disagree with abolishing it for jr high/middle school kids though. it needs to be phased in around that time, otherwise high school will hit them like a brick.


I've got one in fourth grade, age nine. This weekend she had to read three chapters of a book on the top edge of her reading level and answer 20 one to three sentence comprehension questions and write a one page essay.

Granted she's in the top reading group, but still, this is excessive.
 
2012-12-02 05:15:06 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: More and more it seem school is just day-care and the homework is meant to be the learning?

I've known medical students, veterinary students, and engineers who spend significantly less time in class than a 2nd grader. I'm not really sure what kids are doing in school all day, but I'm pretty sure it's not really learning in the traditional sense.

At most universities a 'full-time' student is one who will have '15-credit hours' and that should translate, roughly, into 15 hours in class, each week. That's roughly *three hours* per day. And this is for serious university types.


Yeah, but you are expected to spend 30 hours outside of class on homework. 2:1 ratio average, 1:1 for easy classes, 3:1 for hard classes.
 
2012-12-02 05:15:35 PM  
I taught music in the inner-city for 10 years. One of the biggest challenges was getting students to practice at home. Most of them lived in small apartments and/or had multiple siblings, making it damn-near impossible. I used most of my after-school and vacation time getting kids ready for all-state and other concerts because all of our practice had to be done outside of class-time, but away from their homes.

It's tough. Some kids don't even have the space at home, like a table big enough to do their homework on. These scenarios are things that most people don't consider, but together contribute to lower test scores and achievement.
 
2012-12-02 05:16:11 PM  

Gulper Eel: Meanwhile, Finland wonders what took everybody so long.


Ditto the Czech Republic. Which also like Finland isn't big on exams.
 
2012-12-02 05:29:03 PM  

LiberalEastCoastElitist: links136: So my learning disability is that i'm a visual thinker? Is that what you're saying? I'm simply better at using my hands and thinking in visual terms. It's not that I can't think in other ways, i'm just not nearly as effective at it, so I play to my strengths. Is that really a disorder, or just having different strengths and abilities?

Some would consider failing a test despite knowing the material because you can't recall names of items you've been working with for weeks a disorder, yes. No need to get butthurt, it just means you're weak in one or two areas.
.


I didn't fail them. I would get around 70%, which isn't as good as 98%. I AM weak in that area, I don't understand why thats a learning disorder, or the only example of knowledge and abilities. I'm considered by my teacher with 20 years of managing machine shops a genius in the field, am as good as anyone at doing the work, I just can't show it by remembering the names of tools on a piece of paper because i'm better at remembering the visual and practical aspect, and you know, actually doing the work.

Yet that way is the standard of showing knowledge and ability. That's my point. Alot of people are being overlooked because their strengths are different than what your expected to be good at, even though those strengths are vital to society, they can't even prove those strengths because there's nothing in school that allows you to do that. It was the same in high school for me. My parents knew my intelligence, so did my teachers. But because i only got around 70% in school for the same reason above, it's all my fault.

This is why gang members have grown rapidly. I've met plenty over the years, I notice they think the same way. Same with guys in trades, guys that are former gang members or associates trying to clean up their lives and do what they originally should have done, but didn't because they were cast out of a system that rejected them for having different strengths, at least in my observation. No different than my aboriginal friends and family members, at least the male ones. This is also in my opinion why girls will do better on average than guys in school now. Guy's are more visual.

It's almost a 'suburban' vs 'street-sense' difference. the street-sense people are cast out as stupid, even though they have very useful strengths in different ways. And then we're all shocked as to why we lack trades people.

It's a bloody nightmare. It's destroyed many lives and will continue to do so until it's understood properly.
 
2012-12-02 05:30:22 PM  

links136: Ed Willy: Actually, trying to fix the circle of poverty and bad home life is much harder for the government to do. Government and schools alone cannot fix the bad thinking patterns that trap people in a cycle of shiat jobs and poor decisions.

What, you think schools don't have any affect on thinking patterns?


Behavior patterns are much more difficult to work with. It takes models you can actually see, not abstract ideas
 
2012-12-02 05:32:50 PM  

links136: I'm considered by my teacher with 20 years of managing machine shops a genius in the field, am as good as anyone at doing the work,


In your field a genius is only as good as others at doing the work?


/just picking on you
 
2012-12-02 05:39:04 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Assigned homework is bullshiat. If they can't fit all of the learnin they need into an 8 hour day then they're not doing it right.


How many school districts actually engage students in anything near eight hours of work? I can't vouch for French schools, but the typical American high school, as far as I know, has them there for about seven hours, including lunch. Chicago schools are just now getting in up to 6 hours of actual instructional time per day, which is regarded as a bit of a coup.
 
2012-12-02 05:39:30 PM  

links136: This is why gang members have grown rapidly.


Wait, did you just claim the cause of increased gang membership is the fact that kids who show their intelligence in non-traditional ways aren't being recognized?
 
2012-12-02 05:43:33 PM  

Eddie Adams from Torrance: Assigned homework is bullshiat.
If they can't fit all of the learnin they need into an 8 hour day then they're not doing it right.


Honestly I agree especially for elementary school. You're telling me an 8 year old needs to sit in a chair for 5 hours a day (presumably 2 hours of fun classes, lunch, and recess) and THEN needs to come home and sit in a chair and do more of that?

Middle school, ok I understand a few assignments (not busywork) and reading. High school I understand although I was so busy in high school I made sure that I would have all my assignments done before I went home.

Some kids have shiatty parents who are just going to sit them in front of TV when they are home so maybe they'd be better of doing homework. But ideally I'd want them doing imaginative or creative things or learning new skills they don't learn in school (hiking, bake a cake, go swimming) or just spending time with their family.
 
2012-12-02 05:53:53 PM  

EVERYBODY PANIC: BigNumber12: Pray 4 Mojo: It's cute that most of you think school is about education... and not about training young minds how to jump through societal hoops and be good, obedient citizens.

It's cute that you think that school is a huge Hollywood-esque conspiracy, rather than a mechanism for continuing and furthering the progress of our civilization at a general level. And apparently that a society full of good citizens who don't defiantly flout the law at every turn is a bad thing. You must be saving up for a one-way ticket to Somalia - you'd love the rugged, independent individuals there.

Now don't be too hard on him for this. He has a point. Forced public education is to teach approved information and included in this is the desire by the school system to make 'good citizens' of us all. A certain level of 'socialization' is of course a part of the masterplan.
As for myself, I hated homework. Simple as that. But then, I'm a HS dropout. What do I kknow.

/Yet I own my own business now. Funny how life works.


Thank you. Like I said... I'm not making a qualitative judgement on the system... or claiming conspiracy.

/College dropout
//Rough start, but doing very well for myself
 
2012-12-02 06:12:09 PM  

jst3p: links136: This is why gang members have grown rapidly.

Wait, did you just claim the cause of increased gang membership is the fact that kids who show their intelligence in non-traditional ways aren't being recognized?


Basically yes, it's alot more complicated than that. This is my own observation and obviously I can't prove it, but it's generally the same thing over and over again. Only one guy in my class wasn't a criminal or former gang member, including teachers, not a huge sample though. Not that they were bad people either, they were just cast out of the system because they couldn't do the work in school. They also had the same thinking style and we related in a huge amount of ways because of it. Even though they came from poor backgrounds and I came from a middle-class one. I also related quite differently with my class-mates in middle-class backgrounds and ones in trades, even though I looked completely out of place with trades folk.

Co-workers the same, former gang-members trying to clean up their lives, doing what they do best, trades. They probably should have gone that route from school, but nothing in their school offered that so 1. they dropped out or 2. struggled immensely. Some had similar experiences where they were expected to think in terms of imaginary concepts by their parents or teachers, but could only think with their hands, and were blamed for not trying hard enough or something among the lines.

Every gang member I met outside of work either 1. worked in a trade or 2. were just gang members and had all generally had the same strengths and as everyone else I talked about. The only real variance I saw was level of communication. Ones who could talk and read body language well were great drug dealers, ones that weren't so great would do other crimes like robbery and such. Some were just terrible people, psychopathic, other's were good natured doing what they knew how to do to get by, usually selling drugs. Of coarse, environment and influences would play a big factor as well, regardless of schooling.

Like I said, I can't prove these as I don't have a study on it, but this is my observation in working in the trades and spending quite a fair amount of time in the streets of Winnipeg. There's so many differences between the two worlds I could write a book about it.

I'm no expert, it's just my opinion on the matter. Take it how you want.
 
2012-12-02 06:21:32 PM  
images1.wikia.nocookie.net

Have a thing or two to say about homework. And giant Terrible Birds.
 
2012-12-02 06:30:54 PM  

freewill: Eddie Adams from Torrance: Assigned homework is bullshiat. If they can't fit all of the learnin they need into an 8 hour day then they're not doing it right.

How many school districts actually engage students in anything near eight hours of work? I can't vouch for French schools, but the typical American high school, as far as I know, has them there for about seven hours, including lunch. Chicago schools are just now getting in up to 6 hours of actual instructional time per day, which is regarded as a bit of a coup.


But not all of those six hours of "instructional time" are actually devoted to instruction. Much of it goes to dealing with classroom disruptions and poor student behavior and various administrative tasks like taking attendance, collecting homework (and listening to students' excuses for why they couldn't get the homework), etc.

For some percentage of those students, the reduced instruction time isn't a big deal: they're quick enough that just 10 minutes of instruction per subject is sufficient for them to learn the material. For other students, though, even if every single minute of the day went instruction---and if these students were able to sustain their attention and focus for that length of time (unlikely)---they're not going to learn everything well. Sometimes it's due to low-quality teachers, sometimes the students are so far behind that nothing new makes sense to them, and much of the time it's because the students just aren't that bright. Sometimes all these things are in play.
 
2012-12-02 06:38:24 PM  

links136: LiberalEastCoastElitist: links136: So my learning disability is that i'm a visual thinker? Is that what you're saying? I'm simply better at using my hands and thinking in visual terms. It's not that I can't think in other ways, i'm just not nearly as effective at it, so I play to my strengths. Is that really a disorder, or just having different strengths and abilities?

Some would consider failing a test despite knowing the material because you can't recall names of items you've been working with for weeks a disorder, yes. No need to get butthurt, it just means you're weak in one or two areas.
.

I didn't fail them. I would get around 70%, which isn't as good as 98%. I AM weak in that area, I don't understand why thats a learning disorder, or the only example of knowledge and abilities. I'm considered by my teacher with 20 years of managing machine shops a genius in the field, am as good as anyone at doing the work, I just can't show it by remembering the names of tools on a piece of paper because i'm better at remembering the visual and practical aspect, and you know, actually doing the work.

Yet that way is the standard of showing knowledge and ability. That's my point. Alot of people are being overlooked because their strengths are different than what your expected to be good at, even though those strengths are vital to society, they can't even prove those strengths because there's nothing in school that allows you to do that. It was the same in high school for me. My parents knew my intelligence, so did my teachers. But because i only got around 70% in school for the same reason above, it's all my fault.

This is why gang members have grown rapidly. I've met plenty over the years, I notice they think the same way. Same with guys in trades, guys that are former gang members or associates trying to clean up their lives and do what they originally should have done, but didn't because they were cast out of a system that rejected them for having different strengths, at least in my observation. No different than my aboriginal friends and family members, at least the male ones. This is also in my opinion why girls will do better on average than guys in school now. Guy's are more visual.

It's almost a 'suburban' vs 'street-sense' difference. the street-sense people are cast out as stupid, even though they have very useful strengths in different ways. And then we're all shocked as to why we lack trades people.

It's a bloody nightmare. It's destroyed many lives and will continue to do so until it's understood properly.


Street people (gang members) might not necessarily be stupid, but they are scum of the earth and as such should be cast out with vigor, zeal, and vast quantities of enthusiasm!
 
2012-12-02 06:41:18 PM  

Brontes: links136: Ed Willy: Actually, trying to fix the circle of poverty and bad home life is much harder for the government to do. Government and schools alone cannot fix the bad thinking patterns that trap people in a cycle of shiat jobs and poor decisions.

What, you think schools don't have any affect on thinking patterns?

Math class word problems should consist of: Jenny has a kid at 16 that costs $5000 in hospital bills. She has to pay $50 a day to feed and cloth the child. Her baby daddy makes $5.50 at McDonalds and works 30 hours a week. How much does their life suck? What if they had waited 10 years?


Your newsletter..... Please add me to your subscription list
 
2012-12-02 07:01:03 PM  

nmemkha: We need to return to actually teaching critical thinking and imparting knowledge rather than rote memorization to pass standardized tests.


Theoretically, that would be the way to go..Unfortunately, the rise or critical thinking would devastate the following special interests because eyes will be opened to obvious bullshiat!..

Politicians and lawmakers - They wouldn't be able to pull the wool over the eyes of 'critical thinkers'.
Clergymen - They'd lose all their customers
Lottery Corporations - 'nuff said.
The advertising industries and the broadcasting / publishing empires they support
Tabloids and other 'biased' news sources
Apple Computers (and any other business that puts trendiness, style and form over functionality and cost!) 

Think of the employment..
 
2012-12-02 07:12:21 PM  
I also have a bad habit of wording things terribly (maybe thats a disorder), so if you still don't understand what i'm trying to say, this would do a much better job, if you haven't seen it already.
 
2012-12-02 07:26:48 PM  

Alphakronik: Yes, let's laugh at a country with a better economy and a bigger GDP than ours for ideas that might actually work.


Since when was 2.7 trillion bigger than 15.1 trillion? Problems in Economics?
 
2012-12-02 07:52:04 PM  

Alphakronik: Yes, let's laugh at a country with a better economy and a bigger GDP than ours for ideas that might actually work.


Uh, wut? The per capita GDP of France is about 75% that of the United States. Unless Oregon is now a small Republic in Central Asia, what is this "ours" referring to?
 
2012-12-02 08:18:59 PM  
LOL, I am glad kids these days are experts without any need of practice. But I guess we need ditch diggers too.
 
2012-12-02 08:32:21 PM  

trappedspirit: LOL, I am glad kids these days are experts without any need of practice. But I guess we need ditch diggers too.


"what we're doing isn't working? Well lets do it twice as hard! That should work. fark change. Change is for pussies"
 
2012-12-02 08:33:35 PM  
I actually have homework I need to get to, so I'm skipping most of this thread, but personally I hate it with every fiber of my being. The only homework I enjoy is interesting projects with visuals, and sometimes research papers. Occasionally handouts can be helpful too, but mostly I spend so much time fretting about it and putting it off that I don't feel like I learn anything by the time I get around to doing it, because I'm in a rush. I'd be much happier to spend twice as much time in class, going over the stuff twice, rather than having to 'teach myself'.
 
2012-12-02 08:39:20 PM  

Fark_Guy_Rob: More and more it seem school is just day-care and the homework is meant to be the learning?

I've known medical students, veterinary students, and engineers who spend significantly less time in class than a 2nd grader. I'm not really sure what kids are doing in school all day, but I'm pretty sure it's not really learning in the traditional sense.

At most universities a 'full-time' student is one who will have '15-credit hours' and that should translate, roughly, into 15 hours in class, each week. That's roughly *three hours* per day. And this is for serious university types.


University classes go very fast and you will have to put in many more hours in study than the class time. Some classes will require 4 -5 hrs of study after class a day to be successful at it (I'm looking you Organic Chemistry!)
 
2012-12-02 08:46:00 PM  

4seasons85!: University classes go very fast and you will have to put in many more hours in study than the class time. Some classes will require 4 -5 hrs of study after class a day to be successful at it (I'm looking you Organic Chemistry!)


This.

I've lost count of the number of days I've spent basically 6 hours sleeping, a total 3 hours on lunch, dinner, transportation to and from uni, and the rest of the time sitting on a desk, juggling all kinds of books.

No homework is fine for a lot of people, but not those intending to finish a degree that actually requires you to know stuff.
 
2012-12-02 09:00:41 PM  

jst3p: links136: I'm considered by my teacher with 20 years of managing machine shops a genius in the field, am as good as anyone at doing the work,

In your field a genius is only as good as others at doing the work?


/just picking on you


For someone 1st year compared to veterans I would think so. Oh wait, we're in a world where we expect people to have 5 years experience, right of high school.

/I do word things terribly.
 
2012-12-02 09:45:00 PM  

4seasons85!: Fark_Guy_Rob: More and more it seem school is just day-care and the homework is meant to be the learning?

I've known medical students, veterinary students, and engineers who spend significantly less time in class than a 2nd grader. I'm not really sure what kids are doing in school all day, but I'm pretty sure it's not really learning in the traditional sense.

At most universities a 'full-time' student is one who will have '15-credit hours' and that should translate, roughly, into 15 hours in class, each week. That's roughly *three hours* per day. And this is for serious university types.

University classes go very fast and you will have to put in many more hours in study than the class time. Some classes will require 4 -5 hrs of study after class a day to be successful at it (I'm looking you Organic Chemistry!)



Yep. I don't miss those 4-problem homework assignments that take 20+ hours to do. Doesn't leave much time for anything else.

\graduate-level physics
\\ Jackson's E&M is a beast
 
2012-12-02 09:51:39 PM  

links136: This is my point exactly. Everything I tried to explain went right over your head. Native Americans have been hunters and trappers in their whole existence. This is true today. My Grandfather did it, my father did it, I have uncles and cousins that sill hunt and trap. We are people that work with our hands, our thinking hasn't changed. We never had books or writing, we hunted with our eyes and hands, besides the fact natives were behind because they had no trade routes with any other civilization and were isolated with the rest of the world.

My point is that when you look at a car, thats the physical part of it. The actual word car is an imaginary concept created to represent the physical part of it. This is why trades are disappearing. No one can even grasp the difference between a physical concept and imaginary one. You can't. If you were to show me a car, you would show me a physical car. Could you show me the word car? You can only say it.

The fact you don't understand this difference is exactly why trades are disappearing. They will continue to disappear until this is understood, like in germany. I'm not saying we have to be fair to trades people, i'm saying we have to identify them and teach them to their strengths. This is not done whatsoever.


Of course I understand the point you're trying to make. Hence my "Maybe you're advocating..." statement. You've just gone about it in a rather bizarre fashion, with the whole Native American / utopian tangent.

links136: I mean, you think construction is done with thoughts or your hands?


I sincerely doubt that you're in a position from which to lecture me on construction.
 
2012-12-02 10:16:42 PM  

FizixJunkee: Yep. I don't miss those 4-problem homework assignments that take 20+ hours to do. Doesn't leave much time for anything else.


Meh, wait till you get a job. It doesn't get any easier.  The trick is to enjoy solving the problems.
 
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