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(The New York Times)   States, cities and counties are giving up more than $80 billion a year to attract or keep companies and the jobs they provide. But officials and governments rarely track how many jobs were created and many do not know the value of all their awards   (nytimes.com) divider line 89
    More: Interesting, High Prices, Janesville, town council, county, G.M. Ypsilanti  
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2870 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Dec 2012 at 9:33 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-01 05:43:30 PM
Zero out these subsidies, all subsidies, and the businesses' taxes, and we'll see who wants to be capitalists and who wants welfare.

Since 2000, The New York Times Company has received more than $24 million from the city and state.

But suuuure, their coverage of governmental matters in Albany and NYC will remain evenhanded.
 
2012-12-01 06:26:34 PM

Gulper Eel: Zero out these subsidies, all subsidies, and the businesses' taxes, and we'll see who wants to be capitalists and who wants welfare.


Hmm, an intelligent comment about ending corporate socialism. Bizarre. I suspect there is some ulterior motive at work...

Gulper Eel: Since 2000, The New York Times Company has received more than $24 million from the city and state.

But suuuure, their coverage of governmental matters in Albany and NYC will remain evenhanded.


Oh, there is it. You're just using it as cover for NYT bashing.
 
2012-12-01 06:37:31 PM
If they're not paying, then the rest of us are paying too much.
 
2012-12-01 06:59:40 PM

GAT_00: Oh, there is it. You're just using it as cover for NYT bashing.


And richly deserved. Why do they need a subsidy from the people they cover?
 
2012-12-01 07:43:14 PM

Gulper Eel: GAT_00: Oh, there is it. You're just using it as cover for NYT bashing.

And richly deserved. Why do they need a subsidy from the people they cover?


Because they asked for one, just like every other business in this article. We shouldn't put out signs that say 'Free money for job creating businesses*!' and be shocked when businesses get free money
*job creation not actually necessary 
 
2012-12-01 08:18:57 PM
"The income tax breaks add up to $18 billion and sales tax relief around $52 billion "

I haven't noticed sales tax being omitted from my receipts. Does "relief" mean that I pay sales tax to Walmart instead of my government?
 
2012-12-01 08:25:02 PM

Gulper Eel: GAT_00: Oh, there is it. You're just using it as cover for NYT bashing.

And richly deserved. Why do they need a subsidy from the people they cover?


Why does Wal-Mart need subsidies to build a store?
 
2012-12-01 08:40:17 PM

BarkingUnicorn: "The income tax breaks add up to $18 billion and sales tax relief around $52 billion "

I haven't noticed sales tax being omitted from my receipts. Does "relief" mean that I pay sales tax to Walmart instead of my government?



I'm guessing that means whatever they paid in sales tax on what they bought to run their business was returned by the state. If not, farkin hell.
 
ZAZ [TotalFark]
2012-12-01 08:55:49 PM
When reporters come sniffing around politicians can be convinced to demand repayment, if the original deal was sufficiently concrete. "50% off property tax for 10 years in return for 100 full time jobs (at least $10 per hour, 40 hours per week) for 10 years" is concrete enough that lawyers can clawback handouts when the company doesn't deliver. Or negotiate a refund of half of the tax credit, because who pays list price?
 
2012-12-01 09:31:24 PM

GAT_00: Gulper Eel: GAT_00: Oh, there is it. You're just using it as cover for NYT bashing.

And richly deserved. Why do they need a subsidy from the people they cover?

Why does Wal-Mart need subsidies to build a store?


It's like a kick-back, but it's going the wrong way.
 
2012-12-01 09:34:48 PM
And in West Virginia, when the tax holiday runs out, it's "so long, suckers!"
 
2012-12-01 09:35:32 PM
Wake up!
 
2012-12-01 09:36:07 PM
To be aware
 
2012-12-01 09:40:23 PM
But, but ... gubmint's job isn't to create jobs!

/Corporate welfare, ain't it grand?
 
2012-12-01 09:41:38 PM

Gulper Eel: GAT_00: Oh, there is it. You're just using it as cover for NYT bashing.

And richly deserved. Why do they need a subsidy from the people they cover?


Good question. Where would they go? Would it still be the New York Times if their headquarters was in Ohio?


encompassing oil and coal conglomerates

Wait, how does that work? Either your state has oil and gas or it doesn't.
 
2012-12-01 09:44:08 PM

HotIgneous Intruder: But, but ... gubmint's job isn't to create jobs!

/Corporate welfare, ain't it grand?


No.

I'm tired of corporate welfare.

Scale back.

Please adjust to people in communities.

Thank you.
 
2012-12-01 09:48:37 PM

fusillade762: Gulper Eel: GAT_00: Oh, there is it. You're just using it as cover for NYT bashing.

And richly deserved. Why do they need a subsidy from the people they cover?

Good question. Where would they go? Would it still be the New York Times if their headquarters was in Ohio?


encompassing oil and coal conglomerates

Wait, how does that work? Either your state has oil and gas or it doesn't.


Oil and gas jobs are green jobs.
 
2012-12-01 09:52:19 PM
Sounds like any other advertising budget.
 
2012-12-01 09:52:30 PM

UsikFark: fusillade762: Gulper Eel: GAT_00: Oh, there is it. You're just using it as cover for NYT bashing.

And richly deserved. Why do they need a subsidy from the people they cover?

Good question. Where would they go? Would it still be the New York Times if their headquarters was in Ohio?


encompassing oil and coal conglomerates

Wait, how does that work? Either your state has oil and gas or it doesn't.

Oil and gas jobs are green jobs.


Until they frack freshwater forever...

To kill landlife.
 
2012-12-01 09:53:03 PM

BarkingUnicorn: "The income tax breaks add up to $18 billion and sales tax relief around $52 billion "

I haven't noticed sales tax being omitted from my receipts. Does "relief" mean that I pay sales tax to Walmart instead of my government?


More than likely, actually. "special assessment districts" and such.

We have this go-round all the time in San Diego, where the hotel-occupancy tax gets funneled not to the general city fund, but directly back to the area around the convention center.

Wal-Mart/Target/Kohls'/UltraSuperMegaMart takes advantage of property tax breaks, as far as I know. So local authorities will give them fat breaks on the property tax for their operation, in the hopes that the sales tax makes up for the difference in lost property taxes from local business.....mostly that difference is made of luring customers from other jurisdictions to come shop at the big box store.
 
2012-12-01 09:53:23 PM

Indubitably: UsikFark: fusillade762: Gulper Eel: GAT_00: Oh, there is it. You're just using it as cover for NYT bashing.

And richly deserved. Why do they need a subsidy from the people they cover?

Good question. Where would they go? Would it still be the New York Times if their headquarters was in Ohio?


encompassing oil and coal conglomerates

Wait, how does that work? Either your state has oil and gas or it doesn't.

Oil and gas jobs are green jobs.

Until they frack freshwater forever...

To kill landlife.


To poet.
 
2012-12-01 09:53:48 PM

UsikFark: fusillade762: Gulper Eel: GAT_00:

encompassing oil and coal conglomerates

Wait, how does that work? Either your state has oil and gas or it doesn't.

Oil and gas jobs are green jobs.


Sorry, should have typed "oil and coal".
 
2012-12-01 09:55:20 PM
Or the bussinesses create low paying seasonal or temp only jobs. No benefits or even vacation.
 
2012-12-01 09:56:20 PM

fusillade762: UsikFark: fusillade762: Gulper Eel: GAT_00:

encompassing oil and coal conglomerates

Wait, how does that work? Either your state has oil and gas or it doesn't.

Oil and gas jobs are green jobs.

Sorry, should have typed "oil and coal".


You mean clean-coal technology. It's clean.
 
2012-12-01 09:56:47 PM
Funny, Evanston Il was incorporated just after Chicago and right around the time when many of the large suburbs were. They always had rather restrictive zoning that precluded the siteing of the largest and smelliest enterprises there and this eventuated into a situation where they were able to charge more for their residential properties, so that they grew to have a larger tax base than those other towns. Obviously, this probably doesn't represent a general solution. The French have a saying: Be very careful what you pray for.
 
2012-12-01 10:00:28 PM

UsikFark: fusillade762: UsikFark: fusillade762: Gulper Eel: GAT_00:

encompassing oil and coal conglomerates

Wait, how does that work? Either your state has oil and gas or it doesn't.

Oil and gas jobs are green jobs.

Sorry, should have typed "oil and coal".

You mean clean-coal technology. It's clean.


That's precisely why a continent the size of America just broke off the ice shelf of Greenland to pollute the oceans with its water. Frick. Move inland. Coal melts...
 
2012-12-01 10:00:36 PM
It is dumb for cities IN THE SAME DAMN COUNTRY to be competing for businesses. The only winners are said businesses.

/really, if Philadelphia is really competing with Baltimore - if they are totally serious about "keep Philly competitive" or whatever - then just farking invade Baltimore and steal their shiat. That would make much more sense than offering tax breaks in the name of "jobs."
 
2012-12-01 10:01:05 PM

Indubitably: UsikFark: fusillade762: UsikFark: fusillade762: Gulper Eel: GAT_00:

encompassing oil and coal conglomerates

Wait, how does that work? Either your state has oil and gas or it doesn't.

Oil and gas jobs are green jobs.

Sorry, should have typed "oil and coal".

You mean clean-coal technology. It's clean.

That's precisely why a continent the size of America just broke off the ice shelf of Greenland to pollute the oceans with its water. Frick. Move inland. Coal melts...

To signal

 
d23 [TotalFark]
2012-12-01 10:02:58 PM
There have been books written about abatements and they are YEARS old. Glad to see that NYT finally learned how to read.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2012-12-01 10:06:40 PM

Bonzo_1116: Wal-Mart/Target/Kohls'/UltraSuperMegaMart takes advantage of property tax breaks, as far as I know. So local authorities will give them fat breaks on the property tax for their operation, in the hopes that the sales tax makes up for the difference in lost property taxes from local business.....mostly that difference is made of luring customers from other jurisdictions to come shop at the big box store.


Plus abatements were not intended for big box stores as they pretty much NEVER have a positive outcome... they close other stores.

PLUS don't forget that Wal Mart tends to be a net drain on government resources as they staff in such a way that most of their associates need food stamps to survive.

PLUS some of the abatements are written in such a way that kickbacks are manditory no matter how much taxes they pay, giving them a *negative* tax rate.

Abatements are bad. I mean REALLY bad. They look great during a news conference when all the facts aren't looked at, but they are almost never positive for the local economy and tax base.
 
2012-12-01 10:07:39 PM

AliceBToklasLives: It is dumb for cities IN THE SAME DAMN COUNTRY to be competing for businesses. The only winners are said businesses.

/really, if Philadelphia is really competing with Baltimore - if they are totally serious about "keep Philly competitive" or whatever - then just farking invade Baltimore and steal their shiat. That would make much more sense than offering tax breaks in the name of "jobs."


*gasp* I didn't know we could do that!

/Off to raze Peoria!
 
2012-12-01 10:09:08 PM
The AMC deal is horrible. The company is allowed to just keep the state income tax it takes out of its employees pay checks.

The money never goes to the state.

The citizens never see a line item in the state budget for "corporate welfare for Chinese owned AMC".
 
2012-12-01 10:12:08 PM
I am guessing the campaign contributions more then make up for the lost revenue.
 
2012-12-01 10:14:58 PM
Why does NYC or NY state need to give tax breaks to the NYT? What could they do? Relocate to Jersey City? Rename themselves the New Jersey Times?
 
2012-12-01 10:16:09 PM
States, cities and counties are giving up more than $80 billion a year to attract or keep companies and the jobs they provide. But officials and governments rarely track how many jobs were created and many do not know the value of all their awards can tell you to the penny how much these companies donate to their campaigns.

FTFY, subby.

(and yeah, I see Yakk beat me to it. Oh well.)
 
2012-12-01 10:16:25 PM

Fano: And in West Virginia virtually everywhere, when the tax holiday runs out, it's "so long, suckers!"


FTFY
 
2012-12-01 10:20:47 PM
Well, if you measured how effective the money was, some people would be a-holes and point out it wasn't working.
Like how the abstinence-only sex-ed classes were not allowed to be measured.
Kickbacks and dogma is superior to reality.
 
2012-12-01 10:24:13 PM

AliceBToklasLives: It is dumb for cities IN THE SAME DAMN COUNTRY to be competing for businesses. The only winners are said businesses.


But it's OK for businesses in the same country to compete with each other?
 
2012-12-01 10:25:09 PM
Over matched governments and the companies that abuse them.

How about a stadium deal? Those don't pay off either.

Or government contractors that cost 2x the employee you can't get allocated for some reason.
 
2012-12-01 10:27:57 PM
This article was a complete waste of time. Sure, states, counties and cities invest a considerable amount of $$$ in order to get Acme Widgets to locate to their zip code. The obvious complaint about this article is the fact absent incentive money there is no way of knowing where Acme would have set up shop. Second, and more importantly, it would have helped the NYT's argument if they could have cited exact examples of where states of communities paid incentives to ATTRACT businesses and were actually left holding the bag. Yes they cite GM and a couple of other failing companies, but that really isn't the same thing as trying to attract BMW to your state.

I am not trying to argue that everyone of these incentive programs are perfect, they are not. However, without a tally of winners and losers, it is difficult, if not impossible to know if what the NYT is trying to push has merit.
 
2012-12-01 10:29:12 PM
The elephant in the article is the fact that these towns, cities, etc are not paying anything to these companies. They are merely absolving them from property taxes. Guess what? When people in your town have jobs, they tend to pay more in other taxes....they can buy more homes, pay their own property taxes, the state gets more sales taxes, etc

Take the Willow Run plant in Ypsilanti. There is not exactly a market for WWII bomber factories, even in metro Detroit. So if you have the option to have an empty factory or have a business operating there paying no property taxes, show me the calculations that prove either side is better than the other.

Or how about Gander mountain building in the middle of nowhere. I agree that actually paying for the building is 100% wrong for a municipality (though i seem to remember GAnder Mountain getting this deal frequently), but the whole tax abatement is often perfectly reasonable
 
2012-12-01 10:32:55 PM

AliceBToklasLives: It is dumb for cities IN THE SAME DAMN COUNTRY to be competing for businesses. The only winners are said businesses.

/really, if Philadelphia is really competing with Baltimore - if they are totally serious about "keep Philly competitive" or whatever - then just farking invade Baltimore and steal their shiat. That would make much more sense than offering tax breaks in the name of "jobs."


ain't it a biatch? it's a farking joke. "united states" my arse. the wealthy powerful families that own the companies own the governments. us working arseholes get played like fiddles cradle to grave. someone should remind those dooshbags of wealth that without workers their widgets don't get made and their services don't get performed. we all need to get along for the big picture to work. oddly the people with the most money - more than they'll ever be able to spend - have to be greedy little fu(ks and screw the working class poor at every farking opportunity. such a lack of morals and values should be tossed on the street to find out first hand what cold and hungry is like. shame on them, the whole lot of them. and in a week or two we'll all watch Ebenezer Scrooge, be thankful for our crumbs and those shiatheads in their mansions and penthouses again won't catch the meaning of Dickens tale. i'd like to see it all burn to the ground before i go to meet my toymaker. bastards.
 
2012-12-01 10:35:02 PM

Snort: Over matched governments and the companies that abuse them.

How about a stadium deal? Those don't pay off either.

Or government contractors that cost 2x the employee you can't get allocated for some reason.


I lived in Reno for a long time, where they CONSTANTLY bend over for casinos and malls and housing developments under the banner of job creation -- never mind that in most cases, the jobs are minimum wage service gigs.

The latest hilarity was a minor league stadium that pays no taxes and basically got prime downtown land for free. And guess what? They're back just a few years later asking for more money, which it looks like they'll get. I can't help but wonder who's getting paid off on these deals, and I can only imagine the scope of this issue in NY.
 
2012-12-01 10:37:56 PM

BarkingUnicorn: AliceBToklasLives: It is dumb for cities IN THE SAME DAMN COUNTRY to be competing for businesses. The only winners are said businesses.

But it's OK for businesses in the same country to compete with each other?


Governments are different from businesses. But thanks for playing!
 
2012-12-01 10:37:57 PM

broomballwilson: The elephant in the article is the fact that these towns, cities, etc are not paying anything to these companies. They are merely absolving them from property taxes.


"The income tax breaks add up to $18 billion and sales tax relief around $52 billion "

I think the elephant is in your eye.
 
d23 [TotalFark]
2012-12-01 10:38:01 PM

jpo2269: This article was a complete waste of time. Sure, states, counties and cities invest a considerable amount of $$$ in order to get Acme Widgets to locate to their zip code. The obvious complaint about this article is the fact absent incentive money there is no way of knowing where Acme would have set up shop. Second, and more importantly, it would have helped the NYT's argument if they could have cited exact examples of where states of communities paid incentives to ATTRACT businesses and were actually left holding the bag. Yes they cite GM and a couple of other failing companies, but that really isn't the same thing as trying to attract BMW to your state.

I am not trying to argue that everyone of these incentive programs are perfect, they are not. However, without a tally of winners and losers, it is difficult, if not impossible to know if what the NYT is trying to push has merit.


Again... there are a LOT of books that have the evidence you're claiming isn't there.

This is just one of them: http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-American-Jobs-Scam/dp/1576753158/ref=s r_1_13?ie=UTF8&qid=1354419432&sr=8-13&keywords=tax+abatements
 
2012-12-01 10:40:05 PM
"In an interview, Mr. Stone criticized subsidies for industries like banking and agriculture but defended them for Hollywood, saying that many movies can be shot anywhere and that their actors and crew members pay state income taxes. "It's good," Mr. Stone said of the film subsidies. "Or like basically the way business is done. I don't understand what the moral qualm is."

It's the exact same thing. What a hypocritical dope. Tax incentives bring jobs and tax revenue to places like Vancouver and New Orleans that otherwise have.
 
2012-12-01 10:40:52 PM

AliceBToklasLives: BarkingUnicorn: AliceBToklasLives: It is dumb for cities IN THE SAME DAMN COUNTRY to be competing for businesses. The only winners are said businesses.

But it's OK for businesses in the same country to compete with each other?

Governments are different from businesses. But thanks for playing!


Not when it comes to competing for scarce resources, obviously. Local governments can't simply command jobs to come to their jurisdictions.
 
2012-12-01 10:43:44 PM

Great_Milenko: Fano: And in West Virginia virtually everywhere, when the tax holiday runs out, it's "so long, suckers!"

FTFY


Well, if your employer stopped paying you how long would you stick around?
 
2012-12-01 10:46:48 PM
Sure, after the tax breaks that make up 99% of the "cost" cited in the article, local communities might get a small percentage of the taxes they usually charge. This is still better than a larger percentage of NOTHING they will get if the company chooses to go somewhere else.
 
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