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(Slate)   We have come to a point in our evolution as a society where the question "Is handwriting worth saving?" must be asked   (slate.com) divider line 165
    More: Sad, to-do list, countertops, society, evolution  
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4903 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Dec 2012 at 4:38 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-01 10:02:46 AM
Not mine.
 
2012-12-01 10:50:59 AM
With the ubiquity of those little digital signature pads, I don't even bother trying to sign my name properly anymore. It's not like I could come anywhere close to what's on the back of my card on that tiny pad with that giant pen anyway, so I just do a random scribble these days.
 
2012-12-01 11:50:11 AM
No, it's not worth saving.
 
2012-12-01 11:59:38 AM
My handwriting is horrible because of catholic school
 
2012-12-01 12:04:41 PM
I just draw a little wavy scribble whenever I have to sign something. It doesn't even look like my name.
 
2012-12-01 12:07:30 PM
Well, it's a little more useful than calligraphy, but not much.
 
2012-12-01 12:49:27 PM
I will be writing by hand until I can't write anymore. Whether I'm doing a paper for school or some attempt at something creative, I can't just type it straight into the laptop.

Also, I can always keep a little notebook & pen in my purse to write things, whereas I don't often take my laptop or iPad with me when I am just out and about.

Not sure why, because we had computers in the house from junior high on up, but it is just completely ingrained in me to write things out by hand first and then transcribe them to the computer.
 
2012-12-01 02:40:35 PM
We can shiatcan handwriting as long as students are still obligated to learn how to write properly. Have any of you read an email or anything else from the current generation of college graduates? Twitter is destroying their ability to commit a coherent thought in writing. I sent an email to one of our Jr. Admins last week asking about the status of some tasks he had on a project and I got this in response: "Will l8tr." Then he got snippy with me when I demanded a more detailed update.

This guy isn't stupid, but his communication skills are absolutely atrocious.
 
2012-12-01 02:43:45 PM

pisceandreamer: I will be writing by hand until I can't write anymore. Whether I'm doing a paper for school or some attempt at something creative, I can't just type it straight into the laptop.



Same here with any "to do" lists for me.  That's usually because I'm doing them downstairs, where I don't have a computer.  (I hate laptops, and I hate all the to-do list apps for Android.)
 
If I'm upstairs, I'll often use notepad.exe.
 
Also, yeah, anything creative at all... I generally write spacially (for lack of a better term).  Meaning stuff all over the page, arrows pointing here and there.  Haven't found anything digital at all that allows be to do such with the same comfort and speed.
 
2012-12-01 02:46:17 PM

Lsherm: We can shiatcan handwriting as long as students are still obligated to learn how to write properly. Have any of you read an email or anything else from the current generation of college graduates? Twitter is destroying their ability to commit a coherent thought in writing. I sent an email to one of our Jr. Admins last week asking about the status of some tasks he had on a project and I got this in response: "Will l8tr." Then he got snippy with me when I demanded a more detailed update.

This guy isn't stupid, but his communication skills are absolutely atrocious.



I really think blaming Twitter isn't accurate.  This stuff came about when texting was done on a phone with just 0 to 9 buttons.
 
All in all, I blame laziness at this point.
 
2012-12-01 04:41:43 PM
www.slate.com

This is just begging to be 'shopped into a meme.
 
2012-12-01 04:42:39 PM
There is a huge difference between not writing things by hand, and the SMS/Twitter speak. I have a couple author friends and hey - they type things up on their computers, whoda thunk it.
 
2012-12-01 04:44:31 PM
Yes but screw cursive.
 
2012-12-01 04:44:58 PM
Handwriting is work saving. Cursive is not.
 
2012-12-01 04:45:51 PM

downstairs: All in all, I blame laziness at this point.


and that too many of us just accept it.
 
2012-12-01 04:45:54 PM
Good Farking riddance
 
2012-12-01 04:46:06 PM
why fark around? shiatcan everything that once was which no longer needs to be. the list is very long. seriously. if something comes to pass that is so horrible that computers & teh 'net no longer exists we will all either be dead or we'll wish we were. you think you want to live in a world that's been reverted to 1810? kiss my arse. we've had it too good for too long. the day the fun dies just shoot me in the head, i'm not carrying buckets of water and sleeping on the ground. screw that noise.

/honest lazy spoiled American
 
2012-12-01 04:46:14 PM

picturescrazy: Handwriting is work saving. Cursive is not.


This.
 
2012-12-01 04:46:47 PM
Thanks for asking. No, it's not.
 
2012-12-01 04:47:38 PM
Didn't someone claim that's it's not worth teaching kids to do math in their heads or with a pencil and paper, since now everyone has calculators?

How did that work out?
 
2012-12-01 04:47:39 PM
I'm the opposite of a lot of this thread.

I'm (supposedly) a writer, and I can only write on a keyboard. I didn't even like writing/English until the end of high school, mainly because handwriting's always been a MAJOR chore for me. I got in trouble in elementary school for trying to write single word or single sentence responses to everything. My hand/wrist/arm just hates writing.

Typing, on the other hand, is fine.
 
2012-12-01 04:47:54 PM
I assume the "Sad" tag is because there are some people who think it is worth saving.
 
2012-12-01 04:48:31 PM

Smackledorfer: Yes but screw cursive.


picturescrazy: Handwriting is work saving. Cursive is not.


This.

How else are we supposed to write suicide notes when we feel the urge to kill ourselves when the power goes out after a storm and our computers don't work? I just can't live in a world where people can't read my tweets about having to live in a cold, dark, internetless house?
 
2012-12-01 04:48:56 PM

aimtastic: With the ubiquity of those little digital signature pads, I don't even bother trying to sign my name properly anymore. It's not like I could come anywhere close to what's on the back of my card on that tiny pad with that giant pen anyway, so I just do a random scribble these days.


I write "there is no God" or "I like pie" if in a hurry. Generally the clerk sees your signature on their screen and I've never been called on it. They dont care.
 
2012-12-01 04:50:19 PM

downstairs: pisceandreamer: I will be writing by hand until I can't write anymore. Whether I'm doing a paper for school or some attempt at something creative, I can't just type it straight into the laptop.


Same here with any "to do" lists for me.  That's usually because I'm doing them downstairs, where I don't have a computer.  (I hate laptops, and I hate all the to-do list apps for Android.)
 
If I'm upstairs, I'll often use notepad.exe.
 
Also, yeah, anything creative at all... I generally write spacially (for lack of a better term).  Meaning stuff all over the page, arrows pointing here and there.  Haven't found anything digital at all that allows be to do such with the same comfort and speed.


Are you still downstairs when you're upstairs?
 
2012-12-01 04:51:19 PM

downstairs: Lsherm: We can shiatcan handwriting as long as students are still obligated to learn how to write properly. Have any of you read an email or anything else from the current generation of college graduates? Twitter is destroying their ability to commit a coherent thought in writing. I sent an email to one of our Jr. Admins last week asking about the status of some tasks he had on a project and I got this in response: "Will l8tr." Then he got snippy with me when I demanded a more detailed update.

This guy isn't stupid, but his communication skills are absolutely atrocious.


I really think blaming Twitter isn't accurate.  This stuff came about when texting was done on a phone with just 0 to 9 buttons.
 
All in all, I blame laziness at this point.


What I wonder is whether the younger generation who are usually guilty of this ever get annoyed at their peers who can't communicate effectively. Or do they all just accept not being able to understand what the hell everyone is writing.
 
2012-12-01 04:51:23 PM
Kids these days, don't know how to carve letters on clay tablets.
 
2012-12-01 04:52:33 PM
I write pages by hand every day I do work. I can read my own handwriting faster than typed pages so it's easier that way. Also when I'm writing drafts, I can draw arrows and all that business.

So yeah, handwriting is worth saving if you ask me.
 
2012-12-01 04:52:58 PM
Bear in mind that nothing prevents anybody from learning cursive handwriting if they desire.
 
2012-12-01 04:56:01 PM

LDM90: downstairs: pisceandreamer: I will be writing by hand until I can't write anymore. Whether I'm doing a paper for school or some attempt at something creative, I can't just type it straight into the laptop.


Same here with any "to do" lists for me.  That's usually because I'm doing them downstairs, where I don't have a computer.  (I hate laptops, and I hate all the to-do list apps for Android.)
 
If I'm upstairs, I'll often use notepad.exe.
 
Also, yeah, anything creative at all... I generally write spacially (for lack of a better term).  Meaning stuff all over the page, arrows pointing here and there.  Haven't found anything digital at all that allows be to do such with the same comfort and speed.

Are you still downstairs when you're upstairs?



I'm upstairs and downstairs right now as we speak!
 
You can't explain that.
 
2012-12-01 04:56:51 PM
I don't think it's useful enough to be taught, but I use handwriting when I'm taking notes in my math/engineering classes. Explanations appear in handwriting and everything else is just printed. It makes it easier to discern where my comments end and the actual maths start. Other than that it looks nice I guess.
 
2012-12-01 04:58:18 PM
The ability to express yourself with pen and paper is invaluable - whether you're jotting a quick sketch, a map or some text.
 
2012-12-01 04:58:46 PM
No - assuming people can recreate print under duress.

Speed-writing (cursive) is of little use, save for a handful of special cases.
 
2012-12-01 04:58:53 PM
Fark Cursive. Fark it long, fark it hard, fark it rough - and not in a good way. Have a donkey fark cursive. Or better yet, an elephant. Wait, no better still - get a blue whale to fark cursive, and forget using lube. Then nuke it from orbit, just to be sure.

/Fark cursive.
//Why yes, I have issues with cursive, why do you ask?
 
2012-12-01 04:59:32 PM

downstairs: Lsherm: We can shiatcan handwriting as long as students are still obligated to learn how to write properly. Have any of you read an email or anything else from the current generation of college graduates? Twitter is destroying their ability to commit a coherent thought in writing. I sent an email to one of our Jr. Admins last week asking about the status of some tasks he had on a project and I got this in response: "Will l8tr." Then he got snippy with me when I demanded a more detailed update.

This guy isn't stupid, but his communication skills are absolutely atrocious.


I really think blaming Twitter isn't accurate.  This stuff came about when texting was done on a phone with just 0 to 9 buttons.
 
All in all, I blame laziness at this point.



I still blame twitter.Im critical of anything that butchers the english language more than forums and texting already have. It shouldn't annoy me so much but I had a date ask me if i was gay one time if I was gay because I used "big words" in conversation. I still to this day wonder just how her brain made that connection or conclusion.

//ok Im being over dramatic, it was pretty funny too. Gays are the only people who use big words? Thats a lolin.
 
2012-12-01 05:00:37 PM
With my handwriting, I could've been a CIA operative. Pretty sure I'm the only one capable of reading it.
 
2012-12-01 05:00:42 PM
Cursive is an abomination that only existed for two reasons;
1> Old-style ink pens which might blot if lifted from the page and placed back down, and
2> Forcing southpaws to write right-handed because left-handedness was seen as "wrong".

Cursive doesn't work left-handed with ink; you either need to go into contortions, or you smear what you're writing as you write it. Or you have to hover your hand above the page which is exhausting.

There's literally no point to cursive. Our pens don't blot, and it's a pain in the ass for left-handed kids to learn, moreso than right-handed ones. It's about as relevant to the modern age as farriers are. Sure, there's always going to be a cottage industry for it, but the average person doesn't have to worry about getting their horse shoed, and they shouldn't have to learn how to write cursive.

We should be exposing kids to cursive only to teach them how to read it, since doing so is necessary for reading a lot of historical documents. And that can wait till high school. Other than that, teach kids to print. It's much easier than cursive and doesn't take much time at all, and until we reach a day when every office allows you to enter forms electronically, it's a necessary skill. We might get to that point, but we're not there yet.
 
2012-12-01 05:01:08 PM
ok I really need to start using the preview button again.
 
2012-12-01 05:01:29 PM
Hey, let's ask the members of an Internet chat site if they think typing has made handwriting obsolete. I bet they'll be happy to type up a wide variety of opinions for us.
 
2012-12-01 05:05:50 PM

Trollin4Colon:

I still blame twitter.Im critical of anything that butchers the english language more than forums and texting already have. It shouldn't annoy me so much but I had a date ask me if i was gay one time if I was gay because I used "big words" in conversation. I still to this day wonder just how her brain made that connection or conclusion.

//ok Im being over dramatic, it was pretty funny too. Gays are the only people who use big words? Thats a lolin.


8/10

/you misspelled "Lollering"
 
2012-12-01 05:06:08 PM

El_Frijole_Blanco: My handwriting is horrible because of catholic school


Friend solved that problem: She asked to be whipped on her ass.

/Yes, I did like hearing that story
//How did you guess?
 
2012-12-01 05:07:57 PM

Bonzo_1116: Trollin4Colon:

I still blame twitter.Im critical of anything that butchers the english language more than forums and texting already have. It shouldn't annoy me so much but I had a date ask me if i was gay one time if I was gay because I used "big words" in conversation. I still to this day wonder just how her brain made that connection or conclusion.

//ok Im being over dramatic, it was pretty funny too. Gays are the only people who use big words? Thats a lolin.

8/10

/you misspelled "Lollering"


That wasn't what I was going for but I still chortled.
 
2012-12-01 05:08:58 PM

Bonzo_1116: //ok Im being over dramatic, it was pretty funny too. Gays are the only people who use big words? Thats a lolin.

8/10

/you misspelled "Lollering"


3.bp.blogspot.com
No, he didn't.
 
2012-12-01 05:09:23 PM
You all act like the internet and electrical gadgetry will be immune in the event of: long term disruption to the power grid ore lectromagnetic pulse gerated either by natural circumstances, or as a weapon of war by a foreign government should the US ever be attacked. You really don't want to put all your reliance in the few remaining who would be able to transcribe information accurately.

As anyone who has ever learned a foreign language can tell you, there is nothing like writing and transcribing to assist in the proper spelling and pronounciation of that new language. Stands to reason that reading and writing by hand in our own language may be what has gotten us as far as we have in regards to our ability to communicate using the written language.

Since when was there two "o's" in loser? Probably the same generation that thinks it's ok to kitty-corner across my yard when visiting my neighbor.
 
2012-12-01 05:13:01 PM
No. Screw you Ms.Third grade cursive teacher. You biatch.
 
2012-12-01 05:14:45 PM

Trollin4Colon: hat wasn't what I was going for but I still chortled.


Chortled? Is that some sort of gay-sex term or something?

clowncar on fire: You all act like the internet and electrical gadgetry will be immune in the event of: long term disruption to the power grid ore lectromagnetic pulse gerated either by natural circumstances, or as a weapon of war by a foreign government should the US ever be attacked.


Your argument is that handwriting should be saved to keep us safe in event of zomgzombies? Really?

Probably the same generation that thinks it's ok to kitty-corner across my yard when visiting my neighbor.

Oh, well, if you're going to go so far as to literally say the kids need to stay off your lawn, it makes sense then.
 
2012-12-01 05:15:07 PM
Thorak -

Cursive works well for lefties when done with a pencil ;)

Yes, it's worth saving - be a shame in 50 years to have an elite group of ppl who, alone, were able
to read - and interpret - founding documents. Sort of like the early church - but with a cursive Bill of Rights instead of a Latin text.

Besides - even if copies and translations exist in perpetuity a learned skill is never a waste - especially when it comes to young ppl who have miles of neurons to keep busy

I am an evil mother
 
2012-12-01 05:15:07 PM

Thorak: Cursive is an abomination that only existed for two reasons;
1> Old-style ink pens which might blot if lifted from the page and placed back down, and
2> Forcing southpaws to write right-handed because left-handedness was seen as "wrong".

Cursive doesn't work left-handed with ink; you either need to go into contortions, or you smear what you're writing as you write it. Or you have to hover your hand above the page which is exhausting.

There's literally no point to cursive. Our pens don't blot, and it's a pain in the ass for left-handed kids to learn, moreso than right-handed ones. It's about as relevant to the modern age as farriers are. Sure, there's always going to be a cottage industry for it, but the average person doesn't have to worry about getting their horse shoed, and they shouldn't have to learn how to write cursive.

We should be exposing kids to cursive only to teach them how to read it, since doing so is necessary for reading a lot of historical documents. And that can wait till high school. Other than that, teach kids to print. It's much easier than cursive and doesn't take much time at all, and until we reach a day when every office allows you to enter forms electronically, it's a necessary skill. We might get to that point, but we're not there yet.


My mom's taught elementary school for years and has heard far better excuses as to why kids didn't need to be doing their penmanship assignments. Carpal tunnel was a hit back in the 80's.
 
2012-12-01 05:17:06 PM

Trollin4Colon: downstairs: Lsherm: We can shiatcan handwriting as long as students are still obligated to learn how to write properly. Have any of you read an email or anything else from the current generation of college graduates? Twitter is destroying their ability to commit a coherent thought in writing. I sent an email to one of our Jr. Admins last week asking about the status of some tasks he had on a project and I got this in response: "Will l8tr." Then he got snippy with me when I demanded a more detailed update.

This guy isn't stupid, but his communication skills are absolutely atrocious.


I really think blaming Twitter isn't accurate.  This stuff came about when texting was done on a phone with just 0 to 9 buttons.
 
All in all, I blame laziness at this point.


I still blame twitter.Im critical of anything that butchers the english language more than forums and texting already have. It shouldn't annoy me so much but I had a date ask me if i was gay one time if I was gay because I used "big words" in conversation. I still to this day wonder just how her brain made that connection or conclusion.

//ok Im being over dramatic, it was pretty funny too. Gays are the only people who use big words? Thats a lolin.


What a gay big-word user might look like:

cdn.mos.totalfilm.com
 
2012-12-01 05:17:49 PM

Dafatone: I'm the opposite of a lot of this thread.

I'm (supposedly) a writer, and I can only write on a keyboard. I didn't even like writing/English until the end of high school, mainly because handwriting's always been a MAJOR chore for me. I got in trouble in elementary school for trying to write single word or single sentence responses to everything. My hand/wrist/arm just hates writing.

Typing, on the other hand, is fine.


I'm in the same boat - it's probably not that uncommon.
 
2012-12-01 05:17:59 PM
Help send my children to college. Keep writing cursive.

www.penturners.org
(300 year old White Oak from Missouri trimmmed with original Teak decking from the USS Missouri)

www.penturners.org
(White Tail Deer Antler)
 
2012-12-01 05:18:51 PM

IamAwake: Trollin4Colon: hat wasn't what I was going for but I still chortled.

Chortled? Is that some sort of gay-sex term or something?
.



Oh holy lol. You guys are great.
 
2012-12-01 05:20:09 PM

parasol: Yes, it's worth saving - be a shame in 50 years to have an elite group of ppl who, alone, were able
to read - and interpret - founding documents


why? They're meaningless now. Do you even know what claim the feds have to 99% of the national government and services even existing? "interstate commerce." The Constitution also prohibits a standing army...how's that working out for us?

The documents are already meaningless. Do you really think knowing cursive changes that?

Tell ya what...you guys spend all your time honing your cursive skills for the coming zombie apocalypse, I'll make sure I know how to grow penicillin and ride a horse. If and when the zombies ever come, we'll see whose skills are more useful.
 
2012-12-01 05:20:24 PM
I had perfect handwriting at one point. My mom taught me to write longhand before first grade.

My first grade teacher wouldn't even let me sign my name because the rest of the class hadn't been taught how to. I had to sit drawing block letters for the next three years.

Wonder of wonders - when they finally got around to longhand, my technique had been destroyed.
 
2012-12-01 05:21:06 PM

IamAwake: Trollin4Colon: hat wasn't what I was going for but I still chortled.

Chortled? Is that some sort of gay-sex term or something?

clowncar on fire: You all act like the internet and electrical gadgetry will be immune in the event of: long term disruption to the power grid ore lectromagnetic pulse gerated either by natural circumstances, or as a weapon of war by a foreign government should the US ever be attacked.

Your argument is that handwriting should be saved to keep us safe in event of zomgzombies? Really?

Probably the same generation that thinks it's ok to kitty-corner across my yard when visiting my neighbor.

Oh, well, if you're going to go so far as to literally say the kids need to stay off your lawn, it makes sense then.


Writing does not ward off zombies but it may become a way of accurately keeping stock, writing law, communicating should our little tech heavy world ever meet its demise. Never hurts to be able to write in the event of some sort of major disaster- yes. The people who can write just might be the ones who will be the writers of history.
 
2012-12-01 05:22:54 PM

KrispyKritter: why fark around? shiatcan everything that once was which no longer needs to be. the list is very long. seriously. if something comes to pass that is so horrible that computers & teh 'net no longer exists we will all either be dead or we'll wish we were. you think you want to live in a world that's been reverted to 1810? kiss my arse. we've had it too good for too long. the day the fun dies just shoot me in the head, i'm not carrying buckets of water and sleeping on the ground. screw that noise.

/honest lazy spoiled American


I wouldn't want to be an Irishman from 1810 either. In all seriousness, all the discussion in the world won't doom or save handwriting, just as it wont matter in the world of printed books and the like. Just ask film photographers, vinyl record enthusiasts, geezers with typewriters and those weird carburetor nuts. When something evolves in the tech world that we perceive to be easier we cling to it, regardless of traditions, sentimentality or hipsterdom.

/Ok fine, perhaps hipsters have kept eclectic crap alive to a degree
 
2012-12-01 05:24:31 PM
I write things like grocery lists, or notes at work. I hate cursive, but that could be a symptom of left-handedness.
 
2012-12-01 05:25:46 PM
Oh god yes. My supervisor is a rock star but he needs a freaking rosetta stone for his handwriting. I have to transcribe the words when we're discussing stuff unless I want to ask what the hell the symbols are supposed to mean.
 
2012-12-01 05:26:28 PM

IamAwake: parasol: Yes, it's worth saving - be a shame in 50 years to have an elite group of ppl who, alone, were able
to read - and interpret - founding documents

why? They're meaningless now. Do you even know what claim the feds have to 99% of the national government and services even existing? "interstate commerce." The Constitution also prohibits a standing army...how's that working out for us?

The documents are already meaningless. Do you really think knowing cursive changes that?

Tell ya what...you guys spend all your time honing your cursive skills for the coming zombie apocalypse, I'll make sure I know how to grow penicillin and ride a horse. If and when the zombies ever come, we'll see whose skills are more useful.


Learning cursive takes what, maybe a year or so when you're a little kid. And it's about as intellectually challenging as learning your multiplication tables. I don't think kids suffer too much having to do it.
 
2012-12-01 05:27:04 PM

KrispyKritter: why fark around? shiatcan everything that once was which no longer needs to be. the list is very long. seriously. if something comes to pass that is so horrible that computers & teh 'net no longer exists we will all either be dead or we'll wish we were. you think you want to live in a world that's been reverted to 1810? kiss my arse. we've had it too good for too long. the day the fun dies just shoot me in the head, i'm not carrying buckets of water and sleeping on the ground. screw that noise.

/honest lazy spoiled American


Can I have your stuff?
 
2012-12-01 05:27:04 PM

clowncar on fire: Writing does not ward off zombies but it may become a way of accurately keeping stock, writing law, communicating should our little tech heavy world ever meet its demise. Never hurts to be able to write in the event of some sort of major disaster- yes. The people who can write just might be the ones who will be the writers of history.


Well we should create a group of people who take shifts to keep the kids off your lawn, so that you can maintain that precious heritage of cursive. Because I know that if civilization collapsed overnight (versus some sort of decades-long warning for which we could prepare our survival skills) the very most important thing to me would be making sure someone could write things down. Future generations wouldn't be able to figure out what happened, what with the millions of SUV skeletons about which we'd leave lying.
 
2012-12-01 05:27:16 PM
IamAwake -

I didn't spend all my time mastering cursive - it did, however, take more time than learning to ride a horse. Care to compare knitting a blanket and slicing a tomato?
If you are pressed for time at the end of the world, check the shower tiles while hiding behind the
curtain from zombies - perhaps you have some nice mold cultures already underway
 
2012-12-01 05:33:56 PM
Succeed in teaching them all to farking read one alphabet, then worry if they can write in two.
 
2012-12-01 05:34:03 PM

MayoBoy: Help send my children to college. Keep writing cursive.

[www.penturners.org image 800x548]
(300 year old White Oak from Missouri trimmmed with original Teak decking from the USS Missouri)

[www.penturners.org image 800x424]
(White Tail Deer Antler)


Want!
 
2012-12-01 05:35:18 PM
Mine's too bad to be saved. I do take notes on calls at work on paper, but 75% of the time even I can't understand them. Luckily the physical process of writing etches it into my brain. So maybe it should be saved. I don't know. Don't look at me like that.
 
2012-12-01 05:35:51 PM
www.thisnation.com

1.bp.blogspot.com

kmb.raa.se

modiya.nyu.edu

OR

upload.wikimedia.org 

Which will be around in 50 years, even if left in a museum?
 
2012-12-01 05:36:23 PM
i can't believe this could be taken seriously. everybody should be able to communicate through writing without the aid of a keyboard.
 
2012-12-01 05:36:48 PM
I'm sure some self-absorbed telegraphist had this same argument 50-90 years ago. "It's 1935, can you still transcribe Morse code?"
 
2012-12-01 05:37:43 PM
No matter how many people there are pecking away at miniature screens and keyboards, having handwriting that only you can read is a valuable thing.
 
2012-12-01 05:38:03 PM

MayoBoy: Help send my children to college. Keep writing cursive.

[www.penturners.org image 800x548]
(300 year old White Oak from Missouri trimmmed with original Teak decking from the USS Missouri)

[www.penturners.org image 800x424]
(White Tail Deer Antler)


i38.tinypic.com
 
2012-12-01 05:39:23 PM

Zarquon's Flat Tire: I write things like grocery lists, or notes at work. I hate cursive, but that could be a symptom of left-handedness.


post-it notes aren't going away within our respective lifetimes. A child doesn't need to waste time learning cursive, to be able to make a grocery list (btw, my grocery lists are cloud-sourced and are simultaneously realtime edited by my wife and I, via whatever electronic devices we have nearby. But I digress...)

Pretending it is an important survival skill however, or pretending anyone reads or cares about what is in the Constitution anymore, is silly. Have you yourself looked at the short enumerated list in article 1, section 8, in a while? Should learning ancient latin and greek also be taught to all school children so they can read other historical documents which don't apply to them anymore, in the original form and text they were written?
 
2012-12-01 05:39:38 PM

downstairs:
All in all, I blame laziness at this point.


Agreed. And holy hell is there a lot of whiny laziness in this thread: "Wah! it's hard to do and thurs no durn point ta it NEwayz."

As another poster pointed out, people have said the same thing about simple "analog" computation in the age of calculators and that's developed several generations of mathematical morons.

The truth is, writing longhand - and yes, even in cursive - is a worthwhile skill on its own merit simply because is it another method of communication we are all capable of learning, and it is utterly ridiculous to reduce our diversity of communication methods just because we have machines that can do it or because it hurts your poor widdle handies. Jesus people, man up, and realize that there are innumerable circumstances where hand writing is beneficial or absolutely necessary. Cursive isn't hard. It's easier to write cursive faster than it is to print - that's why it was designed in the first place.

Not only that, but as a teacher myself I can attest to the fact that for the vast majority of students handwriting is a necessary step in composition because when they type work directly into their word processing programs they do so without thought and with the perception that further editing (or even simple proofreading) is necessary, so they end up submitting work that is often sub-literate at best. Hand writing requires more discipline, more intent, and more time, so the thoughts it allows - nay, ENFORCES - leads to higher quality work.


It is the laziness allowed by computer-assisted writing that will affect our thinking in severely deleterious fashion. Orwell was correct on so many levels it's not even funny.
 
2012-12-01 05:40:05 PM
Please destroy cursive! In elementary school I was given the lie by my teachers that cursive would be the "only thing" acceptable in the adult world when you write anything, it's the exact opposite. What's worse is that I unfortunately had a foreign born math teacher who was taught the same. His accent was heavy; and because he only used cursive when he wrote, it made it near impossible to understand this teacher. It made me want to curse!
 
2012-12-01 05:47:42 PM
I am Awake -

To be clear? I never posted learning cursive was a "survival skill" - i may be wrong but you seem to think that average humans can either learn to communicate or survive by learning to grow medicinals and master livestock.
It seems that we've been able to do both and still manage enough free time to bullsh*t on the internet.
btw? school children are still taught languages - including latin - helps in medical school - where they learn about penicillin

odd, that
 
2012-12-01 05:48:26 PM

pisceandreamer: I will be writing by hand until I can't write anymore. Whether I'm doing a paper for school or some attempt at something creative, I can't just type it straight into the laptop.

Also, I can always keep a little notebook & pen in my purse to write things, whereas I don't often take my laptop or iPad with me when I am just out and about.

Not sure why, because we had computers in the house from junior high on up, but it is just completely ingrained in me to write things out by hand first and then transcribe them to the computer.


You printed very well in your post
 
2012-12-01 05:50:01 PM

IamAwake: Pretending it is an important survival skill however, or pretending anyone reads or cares about what is in the Constitution anymore, is silly. Have you yourself looked at the short enumerated list in article 1, section 8, in a while? Should learning ancient latin and greek also be taught to all school children so they can read other historical documents which don't apply to them anymore, in the original form and text they were written?


Because, maybe in 500 years, long after the US has fallen and been remade into a dictatorship, been split up, and reassembled into something different, someone might read that ancient document and find inspiration. It may take work - language will be different 500 years hence, but as long as you have the source document accessible, you can translate it for yourself. Scholars still re-translate and reinterpret writings from old days.

If you rely on a digital copy of a document, that document can be mistyped, changed, taken away without your knowledge or consent. See: DRM, disappearing digital books on Amazon, bad formatting of digital books.

Also one reason I hope Fark never gets and "edit" button - our dumbassery should be displayed for all eternity. :-)
 
2012-12-01 05:51:13 PM

IamAwake: Zarquon's Flat Tire: I write things like grocery lists, or notes at work. I hate cursive, but that could be a symptom of left-handedness.

post-it notes aren't going away within our respective lifetimes. A child doesn't need to waste time learning cursive, to be able to make a grocery list (btw, my grocery lists are cloud-sourced and are simultaneously realtime edited by my wife and I, via whatever electronic devices we have nearby. But I digress...)

Pretending it is an important survival skill however, or pretending anyone reads or cares about what is in the Constitution anymore, is silly. Have you yourself looked at the short enumerated list in article 1, section 8, in a while? Should learning ancient latin and greek also be taught to all school children so they can read other historical documents which don't apply to them anymore, in the original form and text they were written?


Still looking for the part in my post where I implied any of those things. Teach kids to print, screw cursive.
 
2012-12-01 05:52:26 PM
Fine with me if cursive (even something quick, simple and legible like the Palmer method) is no longer taught; I prefer having my handwriting to remain indecipherable to lazy, ignorant 'tards. Helps me to know who isn't worth sparing my attention.

/Seeing an adult writing in childish print is like watching the Special Olympics.
 
2012-12-01 05:53:14 PM

pisceandreamer: I will be writing by hand until I can't write anymore. Whether I'm doing a paper for school or some attempt at something creative, I can't just type it straight into the laptop.

Also, I can always keep a little notebook & pen in my purse to write things, whereas I don't often take my laptop or iPad with me when I am just out and about.

Not sure why, because we had computers in the house from junior high on up, but it is just completely ingrained in me to write things out by hand first and then transcribe them to the computer.


In the future that will be considered a mental disorder.
 
2012-12-01 05:53:29 PM

Duck_of_Doom: Also one reason I hope Fark never gets and "edit" button - our dumbassery should be displayed for all eternity. :-)


Example A of dumbassery to be displayed for all eternity.
 
2012-12-01 05:55:16 PM
CSB:

I was going shopping and my girlfriend wanted me to pick up some things so she started writing a list. I told her to just text me but she refused "You are too technology dependent!" or some such nonsense. I told her I wanted the list digitally not on a dead tree.

I won, she handed me the list. I set it on the table and took a picture of it with my phone.
 
2012-12-01 05:57:15 PM

whatshisname: The ability to express yourself with pen and paper is invaluable - whether you're jotting a quick sketch, a map or some text.


Agreed.

i0.kym-cdn.com
 
2012-12-01 06:06:58 PM
Typing depends on sophisticated technological devices; even the making the old manuals requires a level of technology that wasn't around 200 years ago. Writing with a pen, stylus, charcoal or brush, on the other hand, is one of the earliest technological achievements. Cursive was a big advance over forming every letter separately because it's quicker and by the way prettier. And for those who like forming letters by hand, calligraphy elevates it into an art form.

Typing is to writing what mobility scooters are to legs.
 
2012-12-01 06:08:47 PM
I could never read cursive in the first place, and I've forgotten how to write it.

// I type at over 100 WPM.
 
2012-12-01 06:13:23 PM

Duck_of_Doom: [www.thisnation.com image 600x724]

[1.bp.blogspot.com image 278x400]

[kmb.raa.se image 790x574]

[modiya.nyu.edu image 352x237]

OR

[upload.wikimedia.org image 200x200] 



Which will be around in 50 years, even if left in a museum?


Of course not everything was so carefully inscribed back then. So just take the important stuff and:

www.technologyblogged.com
 
2012-12-01 06:13:44 PM
There will always be a need for writing with some kind of pen or pencil or stick or whatever. Whether it's "cursive" or not is probably irrelevant. The number of people who cannot TYPE, in this day and age, is somewhat shocking, however. Embroiled as I am in a job hunt, I'm amazed that a typing speed of only 45 wpm is still standard for secretarial positions.

If we're going to phase out writing after first or second grade; then typing better be mandatory. And basic grammar and composition still needs to be taught. The stuff that's being passed off as "english" nowadays is beyond disgraceful.
 
2012-12-01 06:17:24 PM
FTFA: Hensher opens his book with the plaintive question: "Should we even care?"

No.
 
2012-12-01 06:19:21 PM

Soymilk: Didn't someone claim that's it's not worth teaching kids to do math in their heads or with a pencil and paper, since now everyone has calculators?

How did that work out?


This attitude has created laziness and people that can't think on their own, make change, use a map, write anything by hand or spell properly. Society has f*cked itself.

/I'm sure this has been mentioned already.
 
2012-12-01 06:22:24 PM

dethmagnetic: I just draw a little wavy scribble whenever I have to sign something. It doesn't even look like my name.


I've gotten by with "fark u." Only one clerk noticed, and she just smirked knowing it wasn't meant for her.
 
2012-12-01 06:27:05 PM

BarkingUnicorn: dethmagnetic: I just draw a little wavy scribble whenever I have to sign something. It doesn't even look like my name.

I've gotten by with "fark u." Only one clerk noticed, and she just smirked knowing it wasn't meant for her.


Mines a sort of bad version of my first initial followed by a squiggle and a loop with a little tail squiggle. Approximately three letters of my name could possibly be made out of it.
 
2012-12-01 06:29:30 PM

Duck_of_Doom: Which will be around in 50 years, even if left in a museum?


I can't recall the actual dates/figures, but one of the biggie tech people (one of the google folks, I think?) figured out there has been more information generated in the last 10 years (at that time, at least) than in the whole of human history prior to that 10 years.

Anything important on that CD is elsewhere. It's digital/ephemeral; it isn't tied to a particular physical object. Will that particular CD still be around? Probably not...but any data on it that is important will still be somewhere.
 
2012-12-01 06:31:37 PM

MayoBoy: Help send my children to college. Keep writing cursive.

[www.penturners.org image 800x548]
(300 year old White Oak from Missouri trimmmed with original Teak decking from the USS Missouri)

[www.penturners.org image 800x424]
(White Tail Deer Antler)


Absolutely beautiful. Email me please.
/eip
 
2012-12-01 06:33:31 PM
Born in 93. My school spent about 3 days teaching cursive, and then we never used it again.

/And I'm ever so OK with that.
 
2012-12-01 06:34:16 PM

Zarquon's Flat Tire: Still looking for the part in my post where I implied any of those things. Teach kids to print, screw cursive.


Sometimes people reply to a comment not to state they are on the opposite end of the ideological spectrum, but instead to emphasize middle ground, or perhaps another expression of a similar position that might convey to the target audience the intent better than their own attempts at communication. Just sayin.
 
2012-12-01 06:37:18 PM

Duck_of_Doom: Because, maybe in 500 years, long after the US has fallen and been remade into a dictatorship, been split up, and reassembled into something different, someone might read that ancient document and find inspiration. It may take work - language will be different 500 years hence, but as long as you have the source document accessible, you can translate it for yourself. Scholars still re-translate and reinterpret writings from old days.


I prefer to spend my energies living and promoting a lifestyle which can survive those 500 years, versus pining for a dead idea. Likely, it just boils down to us have different symptoms of the same cynical, grumpy-old-man disease ;)
 
2012-12-01 06:38:13 PM
Just get one of these itty bitty thermal Printers if you want to make notes and whatnot.
 
2012-12-01 06:43:03 PM

The One True TheDavid: Typing is to writing what mobility scooters are to legs.


Typing (and the mass-printing, easily available information which actually in question here...) is why we have democracies, some modicum of liberty, etc. Writing by hand is great if you have an audience of 1.

Mobility scooters just allow people to be lazy, or are something to fall back on after they give themselves serious health issues after a lifetime of poor health decisions (99% of the time, at least...). The internet allows me to have conversations with people across the world, across the socio-political spectrums. One would have to have an extremely limited perspective to think your analogy has any merit.
 
2012-12-01 06:44:24 PM

AbbeySomeone: Absolutely beautiful. Email me please.
/eip




I think I got your email right. My son has had Whooping Cough and I've slept through the night exactly 3 times since Halloween (last night I got 4 hours of sleep). My mind isn't firing on all cylinders and it actually took some extreme effort on my part to translate your email. If you don't get it, leave another post here and I'll try again after I've had a nap.
 
2012-12-01 06:49:41 PM
My 18 year old son can't even sign his name. His 'signature' looks just like when he prints his name.

My youngest's penmanship is so atrocious that he uses a keyboard device in classes that require
him to write (e.g. language arts, etc...). At least his horrible handwriting is understandable. Autistic
kids (even high functioning ones like my son) often have awful handwriting.

My own handwriting is a mish mash of cursive and block lettering. But I've found that I can't write
more than a paragraph or so before my hand will start cramping up. So sad.
 
2012-12-01 07:00:31 PM
Duh.
 
2012-12-01 07:01:12 PM
In high school and college architecture courses, we used to fill out reams of index cards learning to print in the "architectural style". After that I basically forgot how to write in cursive. I can still do it but I have to concentrate very hard and still fall into printing the occasional letter. However, cursive writing is still a useful thing to know and used every day by all manner of professions.
 
2012-12-01 07:01:42 PM

Indubitably: Duh.


*whistles while walking away*
 
2012-12-01 07:03:29 PM

MayoBoy: AbbeySomeone: Absolutely beautiful. Email me please.
/eip



I think I got your email right. My son has had Whooping Cough and I've slept through the night exactly 3 times since Halloween (last night I got 4 hours of sleep). My mind isn't firing on all cylinders and it actually took some extreme effort on my part to translate your email. If you don't get it, leave another post here and I'll try again after I've had a nap.


Yep. Got it.
 
2012-12-01 07:12:17 PM
My friend, a tradesman by training makes. He does some awesome work but none of it could be called pretty. Each year he sends out holiday cards. In them he writes what has gone on in his life in that year. Everyone gets their own letter.
I wear a size 13 ring and his fingers dwarf mine. The writing in his letters are so beautiful it's a delight to see. In these letters his personality and his artfulness is allowed to shine through.

If there is no more cursive then people like him will no longer be afforded the opportunity to express that beauty from inside.

Damn shame.
 
2012-12-01 07:13:33 PM
The nice thing about handwriting on paper is that it doesn't require electricity to access the stored information.
 
2012-12-01 07:17:12 PM

BMFPitt: picturescrazy: Handwriting is work saving. Cursive is not.

This.


I would like to see proper Calligraphy come back in style.

/my lawn ... OFF
 
2012-12-01 07:23:32 PM
I don't know why I can't leave this poor dead horse alone, but here's my two cents, as a former librarian and teacher who had a Palmer method handwriting class in grade school, and was forced to learn a second style as part of my teaching preparation:

Yes, it sucks. Very few people have the patience and attention to detail to make it an enjoyable task. There are people with dysgraphia or fine motor skill impairments who find it even more difficult. My own penmanship is still awful, but I can probably read yours. However, if we stop teaching handwriting, we risk the scared texts and primary sources of the past becoming indecipherable to all but a few learned scribes within a generation or two. Illiteracy is possibly the best non-violent method of centralizing wealth and power while exerting profound control over the masses, and has been used as such to great effect in the past. 

That is not a risk we should accept.
 
2012-12-01 07:23:58 PM

pisceandreamer: I will be writing by hand until I can't write anymore. Whether I'm doing a paper for school or some attempt at something creative, I can't just type it straight into the laptop.

Also, I can always keep a little notebook & pen in my purse to write things, whereas I don't often take my laptop or iPad with me when I am just out and about.

Not sure why, because we had computers in the house from junior high on up, but it is just completely ingrained in me to write things out by hand first and then transcribe them to the computer.


Oh wow, I didn't think there were people like me in that regard around here.
 
2012-12-01 07:35:42 PM

Phil Moskowitz: Just get one of these itty bitty thermal Printers if you want to make notes and whatnot.


Thermal print wipes off... they knew that when these came out:

www.heimcomputer.de

not to mention they need special paper coated to accept thermal transfer
 
2012-12-01 07:37:24 PM

Marcintosh: My friend, a tradesman by training makes. He does some awesome work but none of it could be called pretty. Each year he sends out holiday cards. In them he writes what has gone on in his life in that year. Everyone gets their own letter.
I wear a size 13 ring and his fingers dwarf mine. The writing in his letters are so beautiful it's a delight to see. In these letters his personality and his artfulness is allowed to shine through.

If there is no more cursive then people like him will no longer be afforded the opportunity to express that beauty from inside.

Damn shame.


He can still express himself regardless of the 'rules'.
 
2012-12-01 07:41:35 PM

hillbillypharmacist: No, it's not worth saving.


Agreed. A few years ago I abandoned it as mine had gotten too hard to read and I found myself actually going slower than with printing. The thing is I write so little that I simply don't keep in practice. Virtually everything is on the computer these days.

pisceandreamer: I will be writing by hand until I can't write anymore. Whether I'm doing a paper for school or some attempt at something creative, I can't just type it straight into the laptop.


Why not? It's easier to edit what you do on the computer than what you do on paper. I only use paper if I have no computer available, I need to deal with it away from the computer and I have no printer (while I carry a laptop I don't carry a printer for it) or it's not text in the first place. (Occasionally I find myself working out math on a piece of paper.)

Not sure why, because we had computers in the house from junior high on up, but it is just completely ingrained in me to write things out by hand first and then transcribe them to the computer.

It's a matter of how much we adapt. The idea of writing it out longhand would feel totally unnatural to me these days.

Soymilk: Didn't someone claim that's it's not worth teaching kids to do math in their heads or with a pencil and paper, since now everyone has calculators?

How did that work out?


That's a different matter. I don't think anyone on here is saying there should be no printing. It's just cursive that has reached the point of not being worth it anymore.

Thorak: Cursive is an abomination that only existed for two reasons;
1> Old-style ink pens which might blot if lifted from the page and placed back down, and
2> Forcing southpaws to write right-handed because left-handedness was seen as "wrong".


With practice you can do cursive faster than printing.

clowncar on fire: You all act like the internet and electrical gadgetry will be immune in the event of: long term disruption to the power grid ore lectromagnetic pulse gerated either by natural circumstances, or as a weapon of war by a foreign government should the US ever be attacked. You really don't want to put all your reliance in the few remaining who would be able to transcribe information accurately.


I wouldn't expect to survive in this case anyway.

Gyrfalcon: There will always be a need for writing with some kind of pen or pencil or stick or whatever. Whether it's "cursive" or not is probably irrelevant. The number of people who cannot TYPE, in this day and age, is somewhat shocking, however. Embroiled as I am in a job hunt, I'm amazed that a typing speed of only 45 wpm is still standard for secretarial positions.

If we're going to phase out writing after first or second grade; then typing better be mandatory. And basic grammar and composition still needs to be taught. The stuff that's being passed off as "english" nowadays is beyond disgraceful.


Yeah. I've had multiple people amazed at my typing speed--and it's only about 80wpm and only that on simple stuff.
 
2012-12-01 07:42:57 PM
mmagdalene: if we stop teaching handwriting, we risk the scared texts and primary sources of the past becoming indecipherable to all but a few learned scribes within a generation or two.

You can just look up "Cursive" on wikipedia :P

All kidding aside, if you don't want knowledge of a topic to fade, then it needs to be properly documented in a digital form.

Once it's documented in digital, it really becomes immortal and can survive even the death of its experts. You can make as many perfect copies as you have machines and drive space to distribute it to.

I can't read this worth a damn.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Spencerian_exampl e. jpg

But I can read the Declaration of Independence
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Us_declaration_in de pendence.jpg
 
2012-12-01 07:45:47 PM
To write legibly
 
2012-12-01 07:48:13 PM
Yeah, let's get rid of that pesky cursive writing, that's another hurtle we can eliminate for the kids.
A proper education isn't really needed anymore, hey we are only number seven in the world as far as graduation, so why the bother?
We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control

newshour.s3.amazonaws.com
 
2012-12-01 07:49:52 PM
I'm always too drunk anyways
 
2012-12-01 07:50:35 PM
1.bp.blogspot.com
 
2012-12-01 07:51:10 PM
No, Subby, the question does not need to be asked, for the same reason paper-and-ink books aren't going out of print. Electricity is not perfect.

/DNRTFA
//Can still guess what it says
///Academics whine about this so farkin' much, it's annoying as all get-out.
 
2012-12-01 07:51:15 PM
I taught myself to read cursive in elementary school without any help. It is not farking Chinese. If you can't figure it out for yourself you probably shouldn't be trying to interpret sacred texts and primary sources of the past.
 
2012-12-01 07:56:26 PM
Having just made my high school students write, by hand, hour long essays right before their Thanksgiving break, I'm getting a kick out of this thread.

Some of my best students have terrible handwriting. Some can't do cursive. Some communicate a little better by typing. However, not a single one of my mouth breathers has decent handwriting, whether cursive or print. I do not blame the internetz or tablets or cellular telephones for this. I blame the farking parents. Teach your farking snowflake to communicate a complex thought, or better yet--if you recognize that you're an idiot, maybe don't have kids and don't pass down the stupid?

/lawn
//onion, belt
///five bees for a quarter
 
2012-12-01 08:05:15 PM
Block printing obviously needs to stay around. Cursive is useless, mostly; while theoretically with practice one can make it faster than printing, many of the ligatures and curlicues are forced.

I personally use a hybrid that looks more like D'Nealian than anything else. But it is necessary to teach cursive? No.
 
2012-12-01 08:06:26 PM

jimmythrust: Having just made my high school students write, by hand, hour long essays right before their Thanksgiving break, I'm getting a kick out of this thread.

Some of my best students have terrible handwriting. Some can't do cursive. Some communicate a little better by typing. However, not a single one of my mouth breathers has decent handwriting, whether cursive or print. I do not blame the internetz or tablets or cellular telephones for this. I blame the farking parents. Teach your farking snowflake to communicate a complex thought, or better yet--if you recognize that you're an idiot, maybe don't have kids and don't pass down the stupid?


Or maybe you could recognize that communicating a complex thought has absolutely nothing to do with handwriting? The words are the same, whether they're presented as pixels on a screen, dots on a printed page, or ink from a pen. The fact that some of the 'best students' have terrible handwriting ought to be a clue - namely, that handwriting has absolutely nothing to do with academic aptitude.
 
2012-12-01 08:09:29 PM

IamAwake: I can't recall the actual dates/figures, but one of the biggie tech people (one of the google folks, I think?) figured out there has been more information generated in the last 10 years (at that time, at least) than in the whole of human history prior to that 10 years.

Anything important on that CD is elsewhere. It's digital/ephemeral; it isn't tied to a particular physical object. Will that particular CD still be around? Probably not...but any data on it that is important will still be somewhere.


Curious, that. Do you mean printed information, or all information? Keep in mind that we have a literate society with cheap recording ability available. If printed/saved, then I'd say I alone have produced more information in 36 years than the Celts have in any 100 pre-Christian years. Fark itself probably holds more information than pre-Columbus Americas' entire human history. Those were oral-based societies, so much has been lost to time, adulterated by conquerors, and ultimately forgotten. Not to mention what was written may have been burned, flooded, or wrecked by the curious. Maybe we don't have Snorri Sturluson's shopping list or his angsty teenage poetry, but we do have something small he recorded for posterity.

We have more information of the "kk l8r" and LOLCat variety, surely. I'd still give your left nut for a full, unedited collection of Etruscan myths, or an ancient Phoenician's travel blog.

As for ephemeral data - just think about the word you chose. Ephemeral. Not sure you meant to use that word, but that doesn't bode well for it being around in 500 years. :-) And data can be edited, tampered with, lost, erased, or DRMed. CSS: at my job, 10 years ago my boss told me to edit the by-laws of the organization to reflect something. This was a major no-no (it wasn't something to be done in secret by one person, it was a founding statement about the organization that should have gone before the entire organization for approval). After it was done, I changed it back and saved as an alternate, as I had guilt and CYA in full effect. Now which one is the legit copy, the one with the change or the original? Both are digital, and but for one sentence they're identical, yet that one sentence changes the direction of the organization.

/ok, you can keep your left nut. Can I still have the Phoenician's travel blog?
 
2012-12-01 08:10:26 PM
zs1.smbc-comics.com
 
2012-12-01 08:13:14 PM

MuonNeutrino: jimmythrust: Having just made my high school students write, by hand, hour long essays right before their Thanksgiving break, I'm getting a kick out of this thread.

Some of my best students have terrible handwriting. Some can't do cursive. Some communicate a little better by typing. However, not a single one of my mouth breathers has decent handwriting, whether cursive or print. I do not blame the internetz or tablets or cellular telephones for this. I blame the farking parents. Teach your farking snowflake to communicate a complex thought, or better yet--if you recognize that you're an idiot, maybe don't have kids and don't pass down the stupid?

Or maybe you could recognize that communicating a complex thought has absolutely nothing to do with handwriting? The words are the same, whether they're presented as pixels on a screen, dots on a printed page, or ink from a pen. The fact that some of the 'best students' have terrible handwriting ought to be a clue - namely, that handwriting has absolutely nothing to do with academic aptitude.


If there is no link, then why do all the inept have horrible handwriting? I have no flunkers with beautiful penmanship. The sharp ones with bad handwriting area likely just in a hurry to convey their ideas, whereas the dullards can barely write out the letters of the alphabet. Just sayin'.
 
2012-12-01 08:21:37 PM
I will say that in college, one of my friends had the most beautiful handwriting I have ever seen as it was produced. No fancy curlicues or anything, but each letter was perfectly formed -- you could read it from across the room. And she wrote fast. I was always jealous.

Still, it's a skill not much used by a majority of people nowadays. Might as well make students write with a fountain pen.
 
2012-12-01 08:23:48 PM

jimmythrust: If there is no link, then why do all the inept have horrible handwriting? I have no flunkers with beautiful penmanship. The sharp ones with bad handwriting area likely just in a hurry to convey their ideas, whereas the dullards can barely write out the letters of the alphabet. Just sayin'.


Maybe the beautiful penmanship ones are the students driven to do everything well, even something as arcane as writing. The dullards are dullards all around, and don't care even about literacy.

Or, there may be something to the folk idea that writing by hand engages different parts of your brain, ones involved with memory.
 
2012-12-01 08:31:19 PM
Having a good, readable script as your disposal prevents you from looking like a subliterate moron in settings where you need to write something down for a group to see on the spot (meetings, explaining things to a team, etc)

Bad handwriting is magnified 1000-fold on a whiteboard, too.
 
2012-12-01 08:32:44 PM

Bonzo_1116: Having a good, readable script asAT your disposal prevents you from looking like a subliterate moron in settings where you need to write something down for a group to see on the spot (meetings, explaining things to a team, etc)

Bad handwriting is magnified 1000-fold on a whiteboard, too.


Damn, I can't tyer no good, neither.
 
2012-12-01 08:34:34 PM

Duck_of_Doom: jimmythrust: If there is no link, then why do all the inept have horrible handwriting? I have no flunkers with beautiful penmanship. The sharp ones with bad handwriting area likely just in a hurry to convey their ideas, whereas the dullards can barely write out the letters of the alphabet. Just sayin'.

Maybe the beautiful penmanship ones are the students driven to do everything well, even something as arcane as writing. The dullards are dullards all around, and don't care even about literacy.

Or, there may be something to the folk idea that writing by hand engages different parts of your brain, ones involved with memory.


I don't think that's a folk idea--that sounds more like science learnin'.

As for the dullards, they don't care in a big way around these parts. Farking snowflakes.
 
2012-12-01 08:36:38 PM

cig-mkr: Yeah, let's get rid of that pesky cursive writing, that's another hurtle we can eliminate for the kids.
A proper education isn't really needed anymore, hey we are only number seven in the world as far as graduation, so why the bother?
We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control

[newshour.s3.amazonaws.com image 397x579]


I don't know how things are in other countries, but I'd be skeptical of that 97% completion rate for Germany. In Germany if you go to the Hauptschule you're done after Grade 9, and if you go to Realschule you're done after Grade 10, and both of those count as "high school graduates" whereas here in the U.S. someone with less than 12 years of school is a "high school dropout." Only the Gymnasium, which prepares you for further study at a University, comprises 12-13 years of education in the same way that the American primary/middle/high school curriculum does. In recent years, as I understand it, there's been a push to have everyone below the Gymnasium level attend more years of schooling, to meet the demands of the modern workplace, but I'm not up on the news from Germany so I don't know to what extent things might have changed in recent years.

I know at a very minimum other countries don't have the sort of "one size fits all" academic program that the U.S. does. Not to hold them up as a model for us to emulate, because "tracking" students in the way that Germany and many other countries do presents problems of its own.
 
2012-12-01 08:38:40 PM
The death of civilization will begin the day we stop stressing the need for people to write by hand.
 
2012-12-01 09:01:54 PM
This is not sad, this is absolutely stupid to be concerned about. The only reason handwriting was ever useful was when we used fountain pens, because it made a mess when you left the page with the tip while writing. Today's kids aren't stupid for not knowing handwriting, the last 3 generations have just been too stupid to stop teaching handwriting after we stopped using fountain pens.

End rant.
 
2012-12-01 09:07:25 PM

geekbikerskum: cig-mkr: Yeah, let's get rid of that pesky cursive writing, that's another hurtle we can eliminate for the kids.
A proper education isn't really needed anymore, hey we are only number seven in the world as far as graduation, so why the bother?
We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control

[newshour.s3.amazonaws.com image 397x579]

I don't know how things are in other countries, but I'd be skeptical of that 97% completion rate for Germany. In Germany if you go to the Hauptschule you're done after Grade 9, and if you go to Realschule you're done after Grade 10, and both of those count as "high school graduates" whereas here in the U.S. someone with less than 12 years of school is a "high school dropout." Only the Gymnasium, which prepares you for further study at a University, comprises 12-13 years of education in the same way that the American primary/middle/high school curriculum does. In recent years, as I understand it, there's been a push to have everyone below the Gymnasium level attend more years of schooling, to meet the demands of the modern workplace, but I'm not up on the news from Germany so I don't know to what extent things might have changed in recent years.

I know at a very minimum other countries don't have the sort of "one size fits all" academic program that the U.S. does. Not to hold them up as a model for us to emulate, because "tracking" students in the way that Germany and many other countries do presents problems of its own.


I remember something years ago about the German education system where the students were tested at a certain age. Depending on the outcome they were assigned to go on for further education or a trade type school. This was thirty years ago, I'm sure things have changed.

I know at a very minimum other countries don't have the sort of "one size fits all" academic program that the U.S. does.

And I think the one size fits all won't work either. I think America probably has a student body that's too diverse for one size fits all.

Just remembered the commercial on television where the kid was on the track jumping lower hurdles.
 
2012-12-01 09:08:33 PM

Soymilk: Didn't someone claim that's it's not worth teaching kids to do math in their heads or with a pencil and paper, since now everyone has calculators?

How did that work out?


proud morons still make this argument.
 
2012-12-01 09:23:15 PM
To teach
 
2012-12-01 09:25:43 PM

cig-mkr: I remember something years ago about the German education system where the students were tested at a certain age. Depending on the outcome they were assigned to go on for further education or a trade type school. This was thirty years ago, I'm sure things have changed.


Yeah, it's the ultimate in high-stakes testing. Have a bad day that day, and you're screwed. Too bad also if you're the sort of student who gets off to a slow start but blossoms later, in the higher grades. That's the big disadvantage to that kind of system. It also discriminates heavily against students from socioeconomic strata who cannot afford specialized test-prep and the like.

For all the disparity in graduation rates, it wouldn't surprise me if the average American has *more* years of education than the average German, because "school" in the U.S. lasts 12 years for everybody, and there's also an emphasis on "college for all" in the U.S. that doesn't exist in Germany.
 
2012-12-01 09:33:13 PM

Duck_of_Doom: Curious, that. Do you mean printed information, or all information? Keep in mind that we have a literate society with cheap recording ability available.


Which is precisely why the phenomenon is occurring. It's a diluted use of the word "information" - I just spent half a second looking, and it was Eric Schmidt - his claim was actually that [information recording in all of human history prior to 2003] was less than [information recorded every two days now]
http://readwrite.com/2011/02/07/are-we-really-creating-as-much

As for ephemeral data - just think about the word you chose. Ephemeral. Not sure you meant to use that word

It was very intentional ;) I lost my primary content-generation device (a laptop) a few months ago, and lost zero important info because of it; I auto-sync to two different "cloud" drives continuously, so I just grabbed a new machine, and was back in action in barely more than the time it took to set up the OS. While my "if it was important" was, honestly, off - due to situations like yours - it's very easy to prevent such problems as well. Maybe I'm just saying that as an IA/"White Hat" consultant, but..eh. ;) 

Data is now not a sheet of crumbling paper with words on it that might not be legible, upon which one is tempted to use methods such as carbon-dating - it's a digital thing that moves to dozens, thousands, billions of locations, effortlessly, and survives for as long or short a life as those who participate in its existence deem it to be worthy.

Cursive is just not relevant anymore. One can write coherently, even while "typing," so it's not like the contrast should really be considered [cursive] versus [l33t speak on twitter/SMS texts/etc] - content isn't generated for an audience of 1 anymore. And thus ends my recap/summary/incoherent ending paragraph of this reply.
 
2012-12-01 09:41:00 PM

Ed Finnerty: whatshisname: The ability to express yourself with pen and paper is invaluable - whether you're jotting a quick sketch, a map or some text.

Agreed.
Dick Butt


Exactly my point! That 30 second doodle is miles ahead of a tweet or this line of characters.
 
2012-12-01 11:49:38 PM
Writing is essential. Good penmanship is commendable.

Poor grammar is rampant. I am often amazed at people's lack of ability to write a comprehensible sentance.
 
2012-12-02 12:45:33 AM

phartman: Writing is essential. Good penmanship is commendable.

Poor grammar is rampant. I am often amazed at people's lack of ability to write a comprehensible sentance.


Sentance?
 
2012-12-02 01:02:06 AM
I'm a musician, and mindful of the related "is it worth still writing music by hand onto a five-line staff, or should we just do it all in the computer?" mindset.

Trust me, young music-conservatory students who have no handwriting skills also draw music notation about as well as they would have in elementary school, sad to say.

In Hollywood, there film scores (hand-)written 80 years ago (Korngold, Newman, Steiner) that look darned good on the score page even today. And then there are laser-printed scores only a couple decades old, where the dots are falling off the page. Oh, and don't get me started on the world of outdated/orphaned music software, etc.

/sorry for the interruption. As to TFA: yes, save handwriting, but let cursive go. The author writes as though paid by the word--seems to be a disease over at Slate.
 
2012-12-02 02:13:24 AM
I suppose perhaps being an Artist makes me see things a bit differently, but handwriting is just another way I express myself, I try to make it as beautiful as I can. I've stated before that I enjoy the actual physical act of writing and will continue to write in cursive on beautiful paper and in lovely journals. I love to write on paper and see ideas, thoughts and speculations build beneath my hand, my words, my heart, bare and vulnerable.

I type passably though not quickly. There were two groups in my typing class, the "Fast" and the "Accurate" I was in the "Accurate" group. The Instructor spent half of every class trying to get the "Accurate" to become faster and the other half trying to get the "Fast" to be more accurate. The goal being to be as fast and accurate as possible. I type between 40 to 50 wpm, never could get any speed. I'm much slower on a straight keyboard than an 'Ergonomic' one as I learned to type on an ergonomic keyboard and a straight one is awkward for me.

All those that truly dislike handwriting go ahead and stop doing it, I will be keeping it alive. Even if only for myself.
 
2012-12-02 02:19:19 AM

Lsherm: We can shiatcan handwriting as long as students are still obligated to learn how to write properly. Have any of you read an email or anything else from the current generation of college graduates? Twitter is destroying their ability to commit a coherent thought in writing. I sent an email to one of our Jr. Admins last week asking about the status of some tasks he had on a project and I got this in response: "Will l8tr." Then he got snippy with me when I demanded a more detailed update.

This guy isn't stupid, but his communication skills are absolutely atrocious.


Maybe he was too busy doing his job to write a long winded email. I noticed this trend at my last real job. The older guys spent hours every day writing pointless emails about what they were going to do and all these pointless status updates. Then they would biatch loudly about not having enough time to finish anything. They also liked to throw pointless meetings. Meanwhile the young guys would send one email that said "fixn trgr 4 email" and it would get done by the end of the day.
 
2012-12-02 03:12:15 AM
I'm going backwards and use calligraphy and hand-cut quills and India ink when writing checks to pay my bills.
 
2012-12-02 03:39:13 AM

Lusiphur: Lsherm: We can shiatcan handwriting as long as students are still obligated to learn how to write properly. Have any of you read an email or anything else from the current generation of college graduates? Twitter is destroying their ability to commit a coherent thought in writing. I sent an email to one of our Jr. Admins last week asking about the status of some tasks he had on a project and I got this in response: "Will l8tr." Then he got snippy with me when I demanded a more detailed update.

This guy isn't stupid, but his communication skills are absolutely atrocious.

Maybe he was too busy doing his job to write a long winded email. I noticed this trend at my last real job. The older guys spent hours every day writing pointless emails about what they were going to do and all these pointless status updates. Then they would biatch loudly about not having enough time to finish anything. They also liked to throw pointless meetings. Meanwhile the young guys would send one email that said "fixn trgr 4 email" and it would get done by the end of the day.


I'm sure that's what he thought, but I'm the seven proxies. It wasn't acceptable because we needed an actual update, not a shorthand.
 
2012-12-02 05:33:10 AM

Lsherm: I'm the seven proxies


I can get behind that.
 
2012-12-02 07:55:40 AM

dready zim: Lsherm: I'm the seven proxies

I can get behind that.


The Seventh Proxy would be a good name for a movie.
 
2012-12-02 10:43:24 AM
Cursive will always be around when my father talks about and during traffic.
 
2012-12-02 03:09:00 PM
"Handwriting," yes.

Cursive, no.

I use basic block style handwriting. If you can read a text, you can read block style.
 
2012-12-02 04:52:38 PM
I almost always print in block letters, but I have started to write in cursive again. Surprisingly it was technology that made me change back. I switched from keeping a paper binder that I kept my notes in for work, and now I write on a tablet with a scribe. It is MUCH easier to keep the pen on the screen and write in cursive than it is to constantly lift the scribe and print.

Give it a few years for tablets to lock down handwriting recognition and cursive should be able to be translated to text much easier. As interfaces evolve I predict that keyboarding will become much less of an essential skill and handwriting will become more important again. Either that or voice to text, but given that handwriting is more private and easier to correct, and that voice recognition has to overcome background noise, I don't think handwriting will go away.
 
2012-12-02 09:47:14 PM

lordargent: I can't read this worth a damn.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Spencerian_exampl e. jpg


That′s either a font or the most perfect calligraphy I′ve ever seen. It′s not even like modern OpenType Pro fonts that can have the letters change shape automatically (and even better with manual control) in modern OpenType-aware applications (like the SimpleText editor that comes with Mac OS X since the early days of OS X).

This company can make your own cursive or manuscript handwriting into an OpenType Pro font for you. They also have handwriting fonts (complete with OpenType Pro contextual alternates) in the styles of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Timothy Matlack (the Declaration of Independence scribe), etc.
 
2012-12-03 02:33:34 AM
Cursive is much easier to use when you're writing on a chalkboard. I use it almost exclusively when I teach.

Any kid who can't read it probably shouldn't be in college.
 
2012-12-03 02:20:43 PM

IamAwake: The One True TheDavid:

Typing is to writing what mobility scooters are to legs.

Typing (and the mass-printing, easily available information which actually in question here...) is why we have democracies, some modicum of liberty, etc.


[citation needed]


Writing by hand is great if you have an audience of 1.

Yes, and...?


Mobility scooters just allow people to be lazy, or are something to fall back on after they give themselves serious health issues after a lifetime of poor health decisions (99% of the time, at least...).


Yes.


The internet allows me to have conversations with people across the world, across the socio-political spectrums.


Yes. It's a good thing.


One would have to have an extremely limited perspective to think your analogy has any merit.


I'm sorry, what did that Straw Man do to you? Or did the voices in your head get you al confused?

My point is we should continue to teach & practice writing by hand, and in cursive at that, in case, oh, in case we undergo an EMP attack by those Chinese devils that would disrupt not only our electronic communications but also the electric transmission that runs the machines that push emails "through the tubes."

Or do you know of any plans to set up a pedal-powered Internet anytime soon? If so it would have to be UUCP anyway, which is too primitive a setup to drive all this bandwidth; think about it and you'll see I'm right. "I'm pedalling as fast as I can Skipper but the old alkie in Guam must be snoozing again."

Besides my Grandma's handwriting was gorgeous.
 
2012-12-03 02:22:13 PM
PlatinumDragon:

The nice thing about handwriting on paper is that it doesn't require electricity to access the stored information.

Bingo.
 
2012-12-03 02:25:54 PM

lordargent: mmagdalene: if we stop teaching handwriting, we risk the scared texts and primary sources of the past becoming indecipherable to all but a few learned scribes within a generation or two.

You can just look up "Cursive" on wikipedia :P


"Cursive" on Wikipedia. (link)
 
2012-12-03 02:34:14 PM
lordargent:

mmagdalene: if we stop teaching handwriting, we risk the scared texts and primary sources of the past becoming indecipherable to all but a few learned scribes within a generation or two.

You can just look up "Cursive" on wikipedia :P

All kidding aside, if you don't want knowledge of a topic to fade, then it needs to be properly documented in a digital form.

Once it's documented in digital, it really becomes immortal and can survive even the death of its experts. You can make as many perfect copies as you have machines and drive space to distribute it to.

I can't read this worth a damn.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/Spencerian_example . jpg


"Dear Sir: We take pleasure in sending you by this mail, College Jour containing terms of tuition board, and full information concerning this school." Etc. Not the best punctated example I've seen, and I'm not sure what a Jour is, but anyway.


But I can read the Declaration of Independence
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/Us_declaration_ind e pendence.jpg


Ah yes. All that afsembling in congrefs.
 
2012-12-03 02:38:10 PM
MuonNeutrino:

The fact that some of the 'best students' have terrible handwriting ought to be a clue - namely, that handwriting has absolutely nothing to do with academic aptitude.

Given continued electricity.
 
2012-12-03 02:41:35 PM

jimmythrust: MuonNeutrino:

The fact that some of the 'best students' have terrible handwriting ought to be a clue - namely, that handwriting has absolutely nothing to do with academic aptitude.

If there is no link, then why do all the inept have horrible handwriting? I have no flunkers with beautiful penmanship. The sharp ones with bad handwriting area likely just in a hurry to convey their ideas, whereas the dullards can barely write out the letters of the alphabet. Just sayin'.


Actually I've seen some very stupid and misspelled missives written in beautiful cursive. Usually by teenage girls who dot an i with a little circle. So you're both wrong. PPPPP!!1!!
 
2012-12-03 02:48:34 PM
Duck_of_Doom:

Or, there may be something to the folk idea that writing by hand engages different parts of your brain, ones involved with memory.

My hunch it's taking care to write legibly that does it. It seems to shove it up in there for keeps.

And with reading I've noticed that sounding words out in my head makes them harder to forget.

But then I'll admit to being brain damaged, so...
 
2012-12-03 02:50:49 PM
jpo2269:

The death of civilization will begin the day we stop stressing the need for people to write by hand.

The death of civilization already started with the proliferation of TV, but thanks for trying.
 
2012-12-03 02:54:24 PM
phartman:

Writing is essential. Good penmanship is commendable.

Poor grammar is rampant. I am often amazed at people's lack of ability to write a comprehensible sentance
sentence. FTFY!
 
2012-12-03 02:57:59 PM
Yay! I win another thread!
 
2012-12-03 08:58:45 PM

The One True TheDavid: PlatinumDragon:

The nice thing about handwriting on paper is that it doesn't require electricity to access the stored information.

Bingo.


i296.photobucket.com
 
2012-12-03 11:08:26 PM

The One True TheDavid: PlatinumDragon:

The nice thing about handwriting on paper is that it doesn't require electricity to access the stored information.

Bingo.


The nice thing about chiseling letters into clay tablets is you don't need access to manufactured paper, ink, and pens.
 
2012-12-04 10:30:45 AM

aerojockey: The One True TheDavid: PlatinumDragon:

The nice thing about handwriting on paper is that it doesn't require electricity to access the stored information.

Bingo.

The nice thing about chiseling letters into clay tablets is you don't need access to manufactured paper, ink, and pens.


Don't laugh so hard; I've actually wondered if this is a not-kooky way to preserve really important fundamental physical information in the event of a complete technological collapse - say, fundamental constants, the basic structure of matter and energy, what Earth is and where it is, etc. Chisel tablets, bury/store copies in randomly-selected locations. For most other things, paper should work fine (properly preserved, of course - even the ancient Egyptians made fiber-based media, so it may not be easy, but it's certainly not impossible).

My point being, always have a fallback option in case one whiz-bang technology is suddenly no longer supportable... or even producable.
 
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