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(Network World)   Microsoft to IE haters: "We want you back ... now shush"   (networkworld.com) divider line 51
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4155 clicks; posted to Geek » on 01 Dec 2012 at 3:07 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-01 12:10:09 PM  
OK, the Tweet about Microsoft buying kittens for starving children made me laugh.
 
2012-12-01 03:14:13 PM  
"IE Sucks...less" is one of the most brilliant and inspired marketing slogans that I have witnessed. I am now tempted to install and never use Internet Explorer 10, as soon as the Ubuntu release is available.
 
2012-12-01 03:22:42 PM  
I'm not a hater, but here's how this works: you've got to be better than what I'm using.

You see, IE was like going to see a skanky crack whore with bad highlights that complained about her job and how long I took. Then I switched to Firefox, which was like getting to bang the brunette out of Two Broke Girls. Then Chrome cane along, and it's like I'm nailing Penny out of the Big Bang Theory.

Here's the problem: unless you're telling me that you're Anne Hathaway, I ain't interested. Saying to me "hey, never mind that Penny, take the time moving all her crap out and move our Penny in" is like "why, what's the point?". And the thing is, I'm pretty sure that your Penny doesn't do all the freaky stuff that mine does like Inspect element or allowing me to run various extensions like Web Developer.

I'm glad you're making a good browser. Really. The more users out there running on the latest standards, the better. And those people will just get an upgrade anyway. For the rest of us, the people who already have Chrome, well, you aren't going to see much conversion the other way.
 
2012-12-01 03:25:22 PM  
The hell you say.

When I am required to upgrade my hardware in order to use your software, that's where I draw the damn line.
 
2012-12-01 03:26:59 PM  

Kittypie070: The hell you say.

When I am required to upgrade my hardware in order to use your software, that's where I draw the damn line.


You should at least vacuum the cat hair out of the case once in a while.
 
2012-12-01 03:39:20 PM  

farkeruk: I'm not a hater, but here's how this works: you've got to be better than what I'm using.


I'm also not sure insulting your critics by painting them with every bad stereotype you can is a great marketing strategy, especially when you end the commercial with the fact that your new product still sucks, just, you know, a little less.

Because really, that's the message. Not that IE is super awesome and better than what you have, but that people who hate it will hate it a little less now. Wow. Brilliant.

Make it do the job it's intended to do better than the competition or just give up.
 
2012-12-01 03:41:37 PM  

farkeruk: I'm not a hater, but here's how this works: you've got to be better than what I'm using.


Here is the order I use browsers:

Chrome (on Windows/Mac: stable, fast, not everything is rendered properly)
IE (on Windows: stable but interface is annoying - will use when Chrome doesn't work for a site)
Safari (on Mac: stable, reasonably fast, not everything is rendered properly - usually works where Chrome doesn't)
Firefox (bloated piece of shiat)

/Microsoft has made tremendous progress in Internet Explorer and its a decent stable and secure browser - too bad they fired all their usability people
 
2012-12-01 03:46:18 PM  
Since I bought a new Win8/IE10 laptop two weeks ago...and continue to use IE thus far, I'm getting kicks, etc.

Before that I used the same laptop with XP/Thunderbird/FF (3 thru 15) for 8 years, so I can't really be called an IE fanboi. There are a few things I like better on FF, but IE still works better overall. After nearly a decade with FF I still encountered websites every day that wouldn't load correctly, or had some other issue.

I did give up trying to use whatever email client comes with W8 -- I never got it to work -- and so am running Thunderchicken 17 and am happy with it.

Oh, and props to MS for their Windows Transfer Wizard, or whatever it's called...it moved my 30 gigs of user data to the new laptop seamlessly and error free.
 
2012-12-01 03:49:04 PM  
Firefox is the new IE and fell victim to adding shiat just for the sake of adding shiat then farking it without a rubber after having sex with a prostitute from Chattanooga. Firefox's Android Doppelganger Dolphin browser fell victim to the same bullshiat.

Chrome on Android sucks balls though. AOSP browser is still hands down the best.
 
2012-12-01 03:57:48 PM  
I have always had IE is my backup browser.  It's been a solid second-choice since it came out. I think the only real problem with IE is that it's inextricably linked to Microsoft.  
 
2012-12-01 04:11:23 PM  
I might go back if Firefox don't fix the open in new window bug. Yeah I really don't like tabs.
 
2012-12-01 04:14:58 PM  
Jingle Bells.
Explorer smells.
Firefox all the waaaaaaaaaaayyyy! 

Google Chrome,
is good for the home.
Delete Explorer todaaaaaaaaayyy!

/sing
 
2012-12-01 04:18:11 PM  
When did Microsoft get back into software?
 
2012-12-01 04:27:02 PM  

farkeruk: I'm not a hater, but here's how this works: you've got to be better than what I'm using.

You see, IE was like going to see a skanky crack whore with bad highlights that complained about her job and how long I took. Then I switched to Firefox, which was like getting to bang the brunette out of Two Broke Girls. Then Chrome cane along, and it's like I'm nailing Penny out of the Big Bang Theory.

Here's the problem: unless you're telling me that you're Anne Hathaway, I ain't interested. Saying to me "hey, never mind that Penny, take the time moving all her crap out and move our Penny in" is like "why, what's the point?". And the thing is, I'm pretty sure that your Penny doesn't do all the freaky stuff that mine does like Inspect element or allowing me to run various extensions like Web Developer.

I'm glad you're making a good browser. Really. The more users out there running on the latest standards, the better. And those people will just get an upgrade anyway. For the rest of us, the people who already have Chrome, well, you aren't going to see much conversion the other way.


Your analogy works very well, but I just wanted to point out how the one thing its missing is that the brunette from two broke girls and Penny have both gained like 500lbs since you started dating and despite lots of promises to go to the gym they both just keep getting bigger. Now if you're like me you still find them useful enough to keep around and the extra weight doesn't bother you because you've got a pretty big bed now (system memory), just once in a while it makes you wonder why they're so fat. It doesn't help you started dating them in the first place because your Ex IE got so slow & fat and the biggest appeal of FF at the time was how small and nimble she was.

I keep using FF out of habit myself, I don't like the concept of Google sitting on so much of my internet experience so Chrome is out and IE is still just a big target saying "Try to hack me, please!" due its business-side market share.
 
2012-12-01 05:18:48 PM  
Before you hate on IE too much, remember that somewhere out there, someone is still using AOL's browser. Kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it?
 
2012-12-01 05:34:24 PM  

farkeruk: I'm glad you're making a good browser. Really. The more users out there running on the latest standards, the better. And those people will just get an upgrade anyway. For the rest of us, the people who already have Chrome, well, you aren't going to see much conversion the other way.


I'm using Chrome, and from time to time I run into video players that simply won't work in Chrome, but will in IE. I'm not going to switch, but IE does have certain uses.
 
2012-12-01 05:36:03 PM  
gingerjet:

Chrome (on Windows/Mac: stable, fast, not everything is rendered properly)
IE (on Windows: stable but interface is annoying - will use when Chrome doesn't work for a site)
Safari (on Mac: stable, reasonably fast, not everything is rendered properly - usually works where Chrome doesn't)
Firefox (bloated piece of shiat)


In my case it's.

Chrome: (On linux) - faster, up to a point, then crashes horribly when too many tabs (expected since it spawns new threads for each tab, so that gives it a lot more overhead). Also can't change the interface to match my preferences and doesn't match the theme of my OS.

IE: (windows XP in a VM) Farked up interface that won't let me change it. Weird ass layout for settings (tools > internet options is an abomination). And well, it's IE, the old devil in new clothing.

Safari: (OSX in a VM), haven't used it enough to form an opinion. But I assume it's a locked down walled garden in typical Apple fashion. (does it even have extensions?)

Firefox (windows XP and linux) - tuned with just the right extensions I want. The only time I have any performance issues is when I do something dumb. I've had thousands of tabs open in firefox without trouble.

This wasn't always the case, but when they moved plugins to another thread, the browser just became a whole lot more stable (now when flash crashes, it doesn't take the browser down with it). Adding noscript cuts down on a lot of the crap as well. I've had thousands of tabs open in firefox with no difficulties.

// The linux version works way better than the windows version.
 
2012-12-01 05:38:43 PM  

Mega Steve: remember that somewhere out there, someone is still using AOL's browser.


My wife's uncle, to be precise
 
2012-12-01 05:41:41 PM  

Mega Steve: Before you hate on IE too much, remember that somewhere out there, someone is still using AOL's browser. Kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it?


I'm sure someone out there is still using Netscape as well.
 
2012-12-01 05:58:16 PM  

lordargent: Safari: (OSX in a VM), haven't used it enough to form an opinion. But I assume it's a locked down walled garden in typical Apple fashion. (does it even have extensions?)

 
2012-12-01 06:16:31 PM  
sirrerun: (OSX in a VM), haven't used it enough to form an opinion. But I assume it's a locked down walled garden in typical Apple fashion. (does it even have extensions?)

I did a cursory glance through the menus and didn't see anything that said "extensions" and based my assumption on that.

But that's also why I prefixed my statement with "haven't used it enough to form an opinion", I'm probably using an old ass version as well.

// a quick trip over to wikipedia shows that extensions were introduced in Safari 5. A quick glance at my VM shows that it's running safari 4.
 
2012-12-01 06:28:34 PM  
sirrerun: (OSX in a VM), haven't used it enough to form an opinion. But I assume it's a locked down walled garden in typical Apple fashion. (does it even have extensions?)

Digging around a bit more, it seems like you can't even get the latest version of Safari because it's locked into the OS (per wikipedia).

"Safari 6.0 was previously known as Safari 5.2 until Apple announced the change at WWDC 2012. The stable release of Safari 6 coincided with the release of OS X Mountain Lion on July 25, 2012, and is integrated into the OS.[34] As Apple integrated it with Mountain Lion, it is no longer available for download from the Apple website or other sources. Apple released Safari 6 via Software Update for users of OS X Lion. It has not been released for OS X versions prior to Lion or for Windows."

And I don't think I can safely upgrade to 5 in a VM since IIRC they shove their updates through the app store, and the updates would break OSX in a VM (unless that's changed over the past few years, I'm certainly not going to try it).
 
2012-12-01 06:58:53 PM  
Aww hell, now I'm curious.

www.lordargent.com 

/ ~1GB worth of updates, it's a VM so I can always roll it back if it goes horribly wrong
 
2012-12-01 07:01:20 PM  
Chrome bad, SRWare Iron good

That being said I stick to Firefox for the add-ons
 
2012-12-01 07:15:46 PM  
So, the upgrade ended up killing the VM and I had to restore the previous snapshot.

lordargent.com

// everybody double panic?

cdn.head-fi.org
 
2012-12-01 08:36:29 PM  

farkeruk: I'm not a hater, but here's how this works: you've got to be better than what I'm using.

You see, IE was like going to see a skanky crack whore with bad highlights that complained about her job and how long I took. Then I switched to Firefox, which was like getting to bang the brunette out of Two Broke Girls. Then Chrome cane along, and it's like I'm nailing Penny out of the Big Bang Theory.

Here's the problem: unless you're telling me that you're Anne Hathaway, I ain't interested. Saying to me "hey, never mind that Penny, take the time moving all her crap out and move our Penny in" is like "why, what's the point?". And the thing is, I'm pretty sure that your Penny doesn't do all the freaky stuff that mine does like Inspect element or allowing me to run various extensions like Web Developer.

I'm glad you're making a good browser. Really. The more users out there running on the latest standards, the better. And those people will just get an upgrade anyway. For the rest of us, the people who already have Chrome, well, you aren't going to see much conversion the other way.


Personally I would like a good email/newsgroup/rss feed client to replace Thunderbird which has gone to pot ever since version 10.
 
2012-12-01 09:29:27 PM  
I was a client-side developer until a week ago. Man do I hate IE.
 
2012-12-01 09:39:08 PM  
Yeah, mark me up as one of the old(er)-school Firefox fans who recently started using IE at work (or Safari, depending on which OS I'm using that hour) ... and noticed that FF and IE are pretty much the same now.

[insert XKCD cartoon about "I'm a Mac" "I'm a PC" "Since you do pretty much everything in a browser now, you can't really tell us apart anymore"]
 
2012-12-01 10:05:29 PM  

Stone Meadow: I did give up trying to use whatever email client comes with W8 -- I never got it to work -- and so am running Thunderchicken 17 and am happy with it.


Wait until the web mail people show up. You will be in a world of hurt then.

/uses 16
 
2012-12-01 10:07:21 PM  

Mega Steve: Before you hate on IE too much, remember that somewhere out there, someone is still using AOL's browser. Kinda puts things in perspective, doesn't it?


And still paying AOL $20 / month, while connecting to it over their cable modem so they can "get on the internet"
 
2012-12-01 10:11:21 PM  

lordargent: I've had thousands of tabs open in firefox without trouble.


Thousands?
 
2012-12-01 10:20:01 PM  
All of you folks who say Firefox is slow or "bloated," what on earth are you doing with it? I regularly have dozens of tabs open, dozens of extensions, on several versions of Windows & Linux, no problems whatsoever.
 
2012-12-01 10:22:25 PM  

lordargent: sirrerun: (OSX in a VM), haven't used it enough to form an opinion. But I assume it's a locked down walled garden in typical Apple fashion. (does it even have extensions?)

Digging around a bit more, it seems like you can't even get the latest version of Safari because it's locked into the OS (per wikipedia).

"Safari 6.0 was previously known as Safari 5.2 until Apple announced the change at WWDC 2012. The stable release of Safari 6 coincided with the release of OS X Mountain Lion on July 25, 2012, and is integrated into the OS.[34] As Apple integrated it with Mountain Lion, it is no longer available for download from the Apple website or other sources. Apple released Safari 6 via Software Update for users of OS X Lion. It has not been released for OS X versions prior to Lion or for Windows."

And I don't think I can safely upgrade to 5 in a VM since IIRC they shove their updates through the app store, and the updates would break OSX in a VM (unless that's changed over the past few years, I'm certainly not going to try it).


Look here.
 
2012-12-01 10:22:49 PM  

bbqsandwich: All of you folks who say Firefox is slow or "bloated," what on earth are you doing with it? I regularly have dozens of tabs open, dozens of extensions, on several versions of Windows & Linux, no problems whatsoever.


Main problem with FF is memory leaks. Which) is also the main problem with Chrome.
 
2012-12-01 10:25:10 PM  

lordargent: So, the upgrade ended up killing the VM and I had to restore the previous snapshot.

[lordargent.com image 850x272]

// everybody double panic?

[cdn.head-fi.org image 289x240]


The only vm ware I have seen that actually supports and runs Mac OS is VMware on a Mac. What are you running?
 
2012-12-01 10:53:01 PM  

styckx: Firefox is the new IE and fell victim to adding shiat just for the sake of adding shiat then farking it without a rubber after having sex with a prostitute from Chattanooga. Firefox's Android Doppelganger Dolphin browser fell victim to the same bullshiat.

Chrome on Android sucks balls though. AOSP browser is still hands down the best.


One thing that Firefox fails at that all other browsers can do easily is accessing the same website at the same time in different windows with different logins. For instance, if you have multiple accounts on Google, YouTube, or whatever, or you develop websites and need to be logged in as Admin in one window while seeing what ordinary not-logged-in visitors will see in another and what lesser-privileged logged-in users would see in yet a third.

IE has been able to do this easily at least as of version 8 (I don′t remember if 7 could or not), using either ‶New Session" (if you wanted to keep History and caches and such) or ‶InPrivate Window" (if you wanted privacy in that session).

Chrome and even Opera can do it with their own Private Browsing features (e.g. open an Incognito Window in Chrome).

In such cases, each such window has its own cookie space, and so would be considered a different user to the website in question.

Firefox? Even as of the latest 17.x Beta, it still has ‶Start Private Browsing" which closes and saves your current session (all windows and tabs), then opens a new one-tab window! Which means that you simply cannot have the same site open in two different windows at the same time each with its own cookie space! IE friggin′ 8 can do it! Opera can do it! So why not FF17!?


lordargent: gingerjet:

Chrome (on Windows/Mac: stable, fast, not everything is rendered properly)
IE (on Windows: stable but interface is annoying - will use when Chrome doesn't work for a site)
Safari (on Mac: stable, reasonably fast, not everything is rendered properly - usually works where Chrome doesn't)
Firefox (bloated piece of shiat)

In my case it's.

Chrome: (On linux) ― faster, up to a point, then crashes horribly when too many tabs (expected since it spawns new threads for each tab, so that gives it a lot more overhead). Also can't change the interface to match my preferences and doesn't match the theme of my OS.

IE: (windows XP in a VM) Farked up interface that won't let me change it. Weird ass layout for settings (tools > internet options is an abomination). And well, it's IE, the old devil in new clothing.

Safari: (OSX in a VM), haven't used it enough to form an opinion. But I assume it's a locked down walled garden in typical Apple fashion. (does it even have extensions?)

Firefox (windows XP and linux) ― tuned with just the right extensions I want. The only time I have any performance issues is when I do something dumb. I've had thousands of tabs open in firefox without trouble.

This wasn't always the case, but when they moved plugins to another thread, the browser just became a whole lot more stable (now when flash crashes, it doesn't take the browser down with it). Adding noscript cuts down on a lot of the crap as well. I've had thousands of tabs open in firefox with no difficulties.

// The linux version works way better than the windows version.


FF bloated? One cool feature it has for saving memory is that (in recent versions ― not sure exactly when this was added), you can tell it in its Options ‶Tabs" tab to ‶Don′t load tabs until selected." This means that if you also have it set to ‶Show my windows and tabs from last time" on startup, it will indeed create all those windows and tabs, but only actually load one tab from each window (whichever one was showing when the program last exited). Thus, even if you have hundreds of tabs, it doesn′t start using up more than a pittance of memory for each one until you actually click it, at which time it gets actually loaded into memory.

Also, if you′re reading an article with lots of links or had done a Google or Bing search that returned several results you want to check out, and so you middle-click on each to open it in a new tab, the tabs are created but don′t actually load until you click them, again saving memory and other resources.

On Chrome: it′s not actually true that it starts a new ‶chrome.exe" process for each tab. Often, multiple tabs will share a single process. In an Incognito Window, all of the tabs for that window will share one process. You can see which tabs are using which processes by using Chrome′s own Task Manager (not to be confused with Windows′s Task Manager). Shortcut is [Shift]+[Esc]. You can force-quit processes as well from there, including the separate processes created for plugins such as Adobe Reader or Shockwave Flash (which tend to be memory and CPU hogs).

For Firefox, each plugin that actually gets used creates a process called ‶plugin-container.exe" that remains in memory even after the plugin is no longer being used. So, if you were on a website with some Flash ads and your browser is getting slow, force-kill ‶plugin-container.exe".
 
2012-12-01 11:11:04 PM  
saturn badger: Thousands?

After I upgraded this box to 12GB of ram, I opened every link from a ton of RSS feeds. Every slickdeals link, bensbargains, newslinx, etc.

Granted, these links are mostly text with a handful of images, but still.

lordargent.com

Meanwhile, back when I only had 6GB of ram, chrome died opening 201 tabs.

lordargent.com

lordargent.com

// at some point, the overhead from chrome's 'thread per page' idea (the same thing that gives it speed and stability) turns against it and kills it.
 
2012-12-01 11:12:37 PM  
saturn badger: The only vm ware I have seen that actually supports and runs Mac OS is VMware on a Mac. What are you running?

Virtualbox on Ubuntu Lucid.

IIRC, some stuff had to be done to the OSX files to get it to boot properly. But it also means that upgrades have the potential to break the VM.
 
2012-12-01 11:19:05 PM  
Kibbler: Main problem with FF is memory leaks.

Hasn't really been an issue for quite some time now. The biggest problem with firefox is bad extensions and flash leaking memory.

// I've had this firefox window open for a day (my machine just suspends to ram), it's only using 216 MB now, but I had it up to 2GB earlier (when I had about a dozen tabs open to various image heavy photoblogs).

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/

// I have done a lot of tweaking in about:config to my firefox install though, I don't think it performs as well out of the box for all hardware.

I've always thought from a software standpoint that there needed to be two versions of a software application, one for the layman (using sane defaults) and one for the pros (basically letting them do whatever they wanted).
 
2012-12-01 11:34:29 PM  

saturn badger: Stone Meadow: I did give up trying to use whatever email client comes with W8 -- I never got it to work -- and so am running Thunderchicken 17 and am happy with it.

Wait until the web mail people show up. You will be in a world of hurt then.

/uses 16


Wut?
 
2012-12-01 11:47:50 PM  
Just today I learned that you can use Internet Explorer on the Xbox 360 (yeah I am sure that this isn't news to anyone). That and my logitech wireless keyboard works awesome on it.

/Why do we need computers again?
 
2012-12-02 12:31:00 AM  

Stone Meadow: saturn badger: Stone Meadow: I did give up trying to use whatever email client comes with W8 -- I never got it to work -- and so am running Thunderchicken 17 and am happy with it.

Wait until the web mail people show up. You will be in a world of hurt then.

/uses 16

Wut?


The web cloud people who claim you don't need your email or anything else on your computer because they only use the cloud and that is the best for everyone.
 
2012-12-02 12:34:43 AM  

Representative of the unwashed masses: Just today I learned that you can use Internet Explorer on the Xbox 360 (yeah I am sure that this isn't news to anyone). That and my logitech wireless keyboard works awesome on it.

/Why do we need computers again?


Uh, well, maybe because the Xbox IS a computer?
 
2012-12-02 12:51:17 AM  

saturn badger: Representative of the unwashed masses: Just today I learned that you can use Internet Explorer on the Xbox 360 (yeah I am sure that this isn't news to anyone). That and my logitech wireless keyboard works awesome on it.

/Why do we need computers again?

Uh, well, maybe because the Xbox IS a computer?


i.chzbgr.com
 
2012-12-02 11:11:59 AM  

saturn badger: Stone Meadow: saturn badger: Stone Meadow: I did give up trying to use whatever email client comes with W8 -- I never got it to work -- and so am running Thunderchicken 17 and am happy with it.

Wait until the web mail people show up. You will be in a world of hurt then.

/uses 16

Wut?

The web cloud people who claim you don't need your email or anything else on your computer because they only use the cloud and that is the best for everyone.


Ah, I wondered if that's what you meant. Except for a "throw away" email addy on yahoo I use to register on forums, I have always maintained personal and business accts that download emails to my PC. As a result I have about 15 years' worth on my HD (and a couple of backups), no matter their original source. I don't have or use gmail or any of the other cloud based sources for real email.

I can see the attractiveness and convenience of cloud based email service, but am still uncomfortable with the idea. How stable is it? What if the provider goes belly-up, etc.? I suppose momentum is on their side, but am not tempted at this time.
 
2012-12-02 06:37:07 PM  
I don't get the people saying FF is 'bloated'. My Firefox has an address bar, a search bar and a few bookmarks (among them a nice convenient Fark RSS feed for time wasting). Its only as big as you want it.
 
2012-12-02 07:28:58 PM  

SanjiSasuke: I don't get the people saying FF is 'bloated'. My Firefox has an address bar, a search bar and a few bookmarks (among them a nice convenient Fark RSS feed for time wasting). Its only as big as you want it.


Never occured to notice that FF can consume 1GB of memory just by existing with a few web pages loaded eh? That's what we tend to mean by bloated, a web browser can eat more system memory then your average netbook has built into it. A web browser, that's the main part. Most AAA games don't even do that unless they're a Bethesda special.
 
2012-12-02 08:43:54 PM  

BumpInTheNight: SanjiSasuke: I don't get the people saying FF is 'bloated'. My Firefox has an address bar, a search bar and a few bookmarks (among them a nice convenient Fark RSS feed for time wasting). Its only as big as you want it.

Never occured to notice that FF can consume 1GB of memory just by existing with a few web pages loaded eh? That's what we tend to mean by bloated, a web browser can eat more system memory then your average netbook has built into it. A web browser, that's the main part. Most AAA games don't even do that unless they're a Bethesda special.


Just tested. 1013MB under Chrome w/ 13 tabs, 900MB under Firefox. (OS: Ubuntu)

Basically if you want to open a GB of tabs, have a computer that can open a GB of tabs.
 
2012-12-03 03:37:31 AM  

Lochsteppe: Kittypie070: The hell you say.

When I am required to upgrade my hardware in order to use your software, that's where I draw the damn line.


You should at least vacuum the cat hair out of the case once in a while.


Gee, I'm about due for the yearly vacuuming! YAY!!
 
2012-12-03 01:52:07 PM  
I will stop hating IE when IE fixes some its long standing bugs that have nothing to do with compatibility and exist solely to prove to me that they are still using the same code base they've had since 1997
 
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