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(Ars Technica)   Ten years ago, 4 techies gave 100% accurate predictions of how piracy would adapt to DRM. FARK: They were Microsoft engineers developing the Trusted Computing Platform   (arstechnica.com) divider line 35
    More: Interesting, DRM, computing platform, Microsoft, copy protection, trusted computing, peer-to-peer networks, information technology, encryption key  
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5263 clicks; posted to Geek » on 01 Dec 2012 at 9:57 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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Archived thread
2012-12-01 08:52:26 AM
3 votes:
Honest to god, if I like something, I buy it. But then I download via BitTorrent anyway so I can use it.
2012-12-01 05:06:10 AM
3 votes:
I think content owners share a large percentage of the blame.

You can't really buy a book or CD anymore, you "license" it, complete with a 50 page agreement full of fine print limiting what you can do with that content. Buy a book, and after I am finished with it I can lend it to my friends. But buy a digital file for my Kindle, and after I finish it, I am not supposed to do anything with it except store it in my own personal cloud. And in many cases the kindle book costs the same as the hard copy, or close too it, and I get to provide the infrastructure to read it.

Same with video and music. I am sure that somewhere in the fine print for that CD I just "licensed", it is not legal for me to rip it and play it on my mp3 player.

I don't believe that anyone has the right to buy one copy of anyone's copyrighted content and share it with the whole world. That is just stealing. But when content providers turn me into a pirate for just using content that I already paid for in more convenient manner, it is their own fault when the "darknet" mentality takes over.
2012-12-01 11:39:45 AM
2 votes:

gingerjet: Apple deliberately "crippled" a computer format by greatly expanding the formats capability and function and selling it to a larger audience than ever before.


I'm not sure what you're talking about but let me explain things:-

1. By default, the BSD UNIX operating system allows people to run their own programs.
2. iOS is based on the BSD UNIX operating system
3. The iOS operating system does not allow people to run their own programs
4. Therefore, Apple deliberately crippled it.
2012-12-01 11:22:59 AM
2 votes:

farkeruk: What Apple have done is take a computer and deliberately cripple it. They didn't even take the Android route of allowing sideloading with a "here be dragons" button.


Apple deliberately "crippled" a computer format by greatly expanding the formats capability and function and selling it to a larger audience than ever before.
2012-12-01 10:04:02 AM
2 votes:
The internet is designed to route around damage.
2012-12-01 03:52:31 PM
1 votes:
t3knomanser: The OS won't run software that isn't signed with a certain key.

No, I was referring to the blocks that prevent the OS from running on certain hardware as well. Building a hackintosh revolves around emulating or circumventing those protections.
2012-12-01 03:32:26 PM
1 votes:

lordargent: If the hardware is capable, but they've intentionally put in blockades, then that's on Apple.


The OS won't run software that isn't signed with a certain key. This is a good thing for certain cases of "good". It makes the device remarkably virus proof, especially since the primary vector is trojan software and similar things. It simplifies the architecture of the OS, since the process model is simpler. And so on.

It's a decision, and it carries trade-offs and limitations as a result. But it's not an inherently terrible decision.

lordargent: A microwave just lacks the capability, so nobody expects it.


Bullshiat. Have you gone shopping for a microwave recently? My microwave has a touch-screen and computer-controls and the like. My thermostat is Internet connected. My TV has walled-garden applications.
2012-12-01 03:10:28 PM
1 votes:
Speaking of, Newzbin2 just went down this week.

As a user of that which must not be named, I'd appreciate email-in-profile ideas on the best replacement.
2012-12-01 01:34:26 PM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Kindle books use DRM to prevent that. Also, seriously, you've never loaned a book?

DRM can be stripped out so easily it's laughable. So easy that I didn't feel it was necessary to even mention it in my previous post. And no, I've never had occasion to lend a book.


I have lent a book but it was maybe twenty years ago. Do people still do that?
2012-12-01 01:09:13 PM
1 votes:

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: Kindle books use DRM to prevent that. Also, seriously, you've never loaned a book?


DRM can be stripped out so easily it's laughable. So easy that I didn't feel it was necessary to even mention it in my previous post. And no, I've never had occasion to lend a book.
2012-12-01 12:31:11 PM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: *shrug* Pros and cons, dude. Truth time: In my almost 30 years of life, I've never once loaned a book. It's just never come up. And, TBH, if I were going to lend someone a kindle book, I'd just pull the file off my kindle (or my backup of ebooks) and email it to them via Calibre. Now they can borrow it forever.


Kindle books use DRM to prevent that. Also, seriously, you've never loaned a book?
2012-12-01 12:29:29 PM
1 votes:

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: A hell of a lot more restrictive than what you can do with a physical copy that you own.


*shrug* Pros and cons, dude. Truth time: In my almost 30 years of life, I've never once loaned a book. It's just never come up. And, TBH, if I were going to lend someone a kindle book, I'd just pull the file off my kindle (or my backup of ebooks) and email it to them via Calibre. Now they can borrow it forever.
2012-12-01 12:21:59 PM
1 votes:

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: Honest Bender: mr_a: Buy a book, and after I am finished with it I can lend it to my friends. But buy a digital file for my Kindle, and after I finish it, I am not supposed to do anything with it except store it in my own personal cloud.

Lending Kindle Books

From the Link:

Kindle books can be loaned to another reader for a period of 14 days. The borrower does not need to own a Kindle -- Kindle books can also be read using our free Kindle reading applications for PC, Mac, iPad, iPhone, BlackBerry, and Android devices. Not all books are lendable -- it is up to the publisher or rights holder to determine which titles are eligible for lending. The lender will not be able to read the book during the loan period. Books can only be loaned once, and subscription content is not currently available for lending.

A hell of a lot more restrictive than what you can do with a physical copy that you own.


And that only applies to some Kindle books. If you go to the Kindle lending page on the Amazon site, only certain books (less than half of the titles I own) are even eligible.
2012-12-01 12:21:01 PM
1 votes:

The Evil That Lies In The Hearts Of Men: A hell of a lot more restrictive than what you can do with a physical copy that you own.


This is one of the reasons I pirate more than I buy for my kindle. That, and I know one day I won't be using a kindle, and I don't want to have hundreds of dollars of books with DRM tied to an Amazon account. I love my Kindle, but damn do e-books need to catch up with the times.
2012-12-01 12:16:47 PM
1 votes:

Honest Bender: mr_a: Buy a book, and after I am finished with it I can lend it to my friends. But buy a digital file for my Kindle, and after I finish it, I am not supposed to do anything with it except store it in my own personal cloud.

Lending Kindle Books


From the Link:

Kindle books can be loaned to another reader for a period of 14 days. The borrower does not need to own a Kindle -- Kindle books can also be read using our free Kindle reading applications for PC, Mac, iPad, iPhone, BlackBerry, and Android devices. Not all books are lendable -- it is up to the publisher or rights holder to determine which titles are eligible for lending. The lender will not be able to read the book during the loan period. Books can only be loaned once, and subscription content is not currently available for lending.

A hell of a lot more restrictive than what you can do with a physical copy that you own.
2012-12-01 12:15:17 PM
1 votes:

Kinek: As much as I hate to argue this, regional pricing might fix that? Or perhaps lowering prices across the board. Digital distribution reduces marginal costs by a ridiculous amount. Go the steam method. Reduce your price to a point where people will try it for shiats and giggles. 2 dollars for a movie and my standards drop.


The argument used to be that piracy of personal computer video games used to be that computer gamers were whiny, elitist, and entitled consumers who demanded absolute satisfaction and perfection in their products and looked for excuses to pirate stuff. Now, if you look at the Android market, a platform bundled with one of the most accessible consumer devices out there, a market where the price point has hit a nearly unsustainable floor, piracy remains awful. There is going to be a percentage of people who do not buy your product under any circumstances, and it's simply better to get your brand out there than figuring out how to make these people pay for it. And the more DRM schemes out there, the more marketplaces that require you to disclose all your personal information, the more and more people who are going to turn to the piracy option.
2012-12-01 12:12:19 PM
1 votes:

farkeruk: Take the iPad - if you own a v1 or v2, you are vulnerable to attack in future because you're not getting any OS updates


This is also true of my thermostat. The company has ceased releasing new software for it, and yes, it is Internet connected. This is the behavior of consumer electronics. My argument is that the iPad has more in common with a thermostat than a PC, and that comparing it to a PC is a bad comparison. It exists inside of a different problemspace.

Also, I tend to replace my laptop every 3-4 years anyway, so seeing other devices on a similar upgrade schedule isn't exactly the worst thing I've ever seen. Yes, it's wasteful, but welcome to America. I give my old stuff away to other folks, it's not like it goes into the trashbin.
2012-12-01 12:11:03 PM
1 votes:

mr_a: Buy a book, and after I am finished with it I can lend it to my friends. But buy a digital file for my Kindle, and after I finish it, I am not supposed to do anything with it except store it in my own personal cloud.


Lending Kindle Books
2012-12-01 12:09:50 PM
1 votes:

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: MrHappyRotter: The economy is shiat, and creative media is about the only potentially viable U.S. export anymore these days

Be honest - do you have a passport? In Indonesia, I saw video rental stores literally filled wall to wall with pirated movies. In a Taiwanese 3C (like a Best Buy), I was told they didn't carry PSP games because I could just go home and download it on my computer. And in the Middle East, seeing a non-pirated movie is about as common as a Jew and a Muslim sitting down for tea.


As much as I hate to argue this, regional pricing might fix that? Or perhaps lowering prices across the board. Digital distribution reduces marginal costs by a ridiculous amount. Go the steam method. Reduce your price to a point where people will try it for shiats and giggles. 2 dollars for a movie and my standards drop.
2012-12-01 12:05:21 PM
1 votes:

Sudo_Make_Me_A_Sandwich: And in the Middle East, seeing a non-pirated movie is about as common as a Jew and a Muslim sitting down for tea a BLT.


FTFY
2012-12-01 12:02:57 PM
1 votes:

Flab: DoomPaul: Option A: Purchase software/movie/song/game/etc and deal with unskippable portions, locked content, DRM, etc.

Option B: Pirate the software for free and forego any DRM or related headaches and have an astronomically low chance of being caught/fined/imprisoned.

Don't be surprised when people go for Option B. I love Game of Thrones but HBO doesn't make the show available for purchase online or streaming, so I pirate it. If they made it easily accessible on something like Amazon video then I would gladly pay for it.

I may be wrong, but the last paragraph of TFA says the exact opposite.


And that's why I don't buy the whole "people wouldn't pirate if it was available cheaply" argument. There is no process for acquiring digital content that will ever be easier or cheaper than torrenting. Sure, some people will pay legally, but then you risk viewers shifting from the current model, which makes good money, to the newer model, which would make far less. That's exactly what happened with the music industry. HBO makes way more money from people shelling out $18/month than they could if they made their shows available to download immediately.
2012-12-01 12:00:18 PM
1 votes:

MrHappyRotter: The economy is shiat, and creative media is about the only potentially viable U.S. export anymore these days


Be honest - do you have a passport? In Indonesia, I saw video rental stores literally filled wall to wall with pirated movies. In a Taiwanese 3C (like a Best Buy), I was told they didn't carry PSP games because I could just go home and download it on my computer. And in the Middle East, seeing a non-pirated movie is about as common as a Jew and a Muslim sitting down for tea.
2012-12-01 11:52:47 AM
1 votes:

t3knomanser: But they aren't going to. So who cares if the feature is removed? Code signing brings other benefits. It's a trade-off, certainly, but it's not inherently bad.


The problem with all closed or protected systems is always that you don't know what's going to happen tomorrow. Take the iPad - if you own a v1 or v2, you are vulnerable to attack in future because you're not getting any OS updates. Did anyone realise they were only going to get 2 years of updates when they bought it?

If that were a PC, you'd at least have the option of buying a new OS, or installing Linux. With an iPad, you either risk some code exploiting a known buffer overflow, or throw it in the bin.
2012-12-01 11:52:37 AM
1 votes:

MrHappyRotter: The government needs to wise up and crack down on these criminals that are downloading and sharing pirated music, movies, books, etc (i.e. stealing). The economy is shiat, and creative media is about the only potentially viable U.S. export anymore these days -- Yes, those movies and songs you love to pretend you're too cool to enjoy, the world loves them and pays a lot (steals a lot, too) to see and hear them. If we threw people in jail and stopped this rampant theft, think of all the money that'd be injected into the economy. It's just common sense -- pay for what you use, then the media companies can hire more people and spend more money, which means more jobs with more people who can pay for songs and movies. It's a positive feedback loop of win compared to the negative feedback loop of economic fail that we all seem to hold in high regard these days.


You've got to build into it. Next time, don't lead with the punchline.
2012-12-01 11:23:32 AM
1 votes:

DoomPaul: Option A: Purchase software/movie/song/game/etc and deal with unskippable portions, locked content, DRM, etc.

Option B: Pirate the software for free and forego any DRM or related headaches and have an astronomically low chance of being caught/fined/imprisoned.

Don't be surprised when people go for Option B. I love Game of Thrones but HBO doesn't make the show available for purchase online or streaming, so I pirate it. If they made it easily accessible on something like Amazon video then I would gladly pay for it.


I may be wrong, but the last paragraph of TFA says the exact opposite.
2012-12-01 11:21:07 AM
1 votes:

farkeruk: We might laugh at people who run IE, but they do have the option to install Chrome.


But they aren't going to. So who cares if the feature is removed? Code signing brings other benefits. It's a trade-off, certainly, but it's not inherently bad.

The Billdozer: The problem with this scenario is that Apple (maybe not then, but definitely now) knows that people will go out of their ways to shoehorn their "consumer electronics" into business environments and they sell it as a "multi-use solution" for different companies to resell to customers as business-class products.


Of course, Apple also put together a way for corporations to build their own extensions to Apple's walled garden. My company could develop iPhone applications and deploy them through our own app repository to our company's phones. We don't, largely because our mobile ecosystem is far to heterogeneous, but we could.

mongbiohazard: And yet you can still root your iPhone and run alternative software on it.


Let's not pretend that's a real solution. Yes, you can crack it, and then you get to play with the death-spiral of trying to keep patches up to date and restoring from backups constantly and the next OS release potentially bricking your phone, etc. etc. etc.
2012-12-01 10:55:37 AM
1 votes:

Cinaed: It's the people who are hosting, who are distributing, who are seeding the content


In the case of bittorrent, Pimply guy number 108351 IS the person who's doing all those things.

TPB just keeps a database on how to findpPimply guy number 108351.

/full of fail
2012-12-01 10:41:10 AM
1 votes:

t3knomanser: rocky_howard: the funny thing is that Apple's success with the iOS devices primed the consumer to expect exactly that. fark Apple

It's a trade-off. Apple positions its mobile devices as consumer electronics. Complaining that they won't let you run the software of your choice is like complaining that your microwave doesn't run Linux. There's certainly a place in the market for general purpose devices, and there always will be. But for most users, most of the time, Apple's model works very well.

Or, to put it another way, most people can't be arsed to install a non-IE web-browser. Now you expect them to run alternative web browsers and other apps on their phone?



And yet you can still root your iPhone and run alternative software on it. My grandma might not root her iPhone, but tons of people do. The pirates/hackers will always win the battle in the end so long as content and gadget providers continue to struggle with them directly with DRM rather than innovating and trying to create truly enticing legal options.

Yes, the music and movie industries may have to accept a lower profit margin per unit delivered in the end (though it's possible they may be able to make some up on volume), they may even need to become smaller industries. It's either arrogance, desperation or delusion if they think their industry should be exempt from the same changes that technological advancement has imposed on all sorts of other industries. The longer they deny reality the more likely the market will be pulled out from under them entirely.
2012-12-01 10:38:17 AM
1 votes:

t3knomanser: rocky_howard: the funny thing is that Apple's success with the iOS devices primed the consumer to expect exactly that. fark Apple

It's a trade-off. Apple positions its mobile devices as consumer electronics. Complaining that they won't let you run the software of your choice is like complaining that your microwave doesn't run Linux. There's certainly a place in the market for general purpose devices, and there always will be. But for most users, most of the time, Apple's model works very well.

Or, to put it another way, most people can't be arsed to install a non-IE web-browser. Now you expect them to run alternative web browsers and other apps on their phone?


The problem with this scenario is that Apple (maybe not then, but definitely now) knows that people will go out of their ways to shoehorn their "consumer electronics" into business environments and they sell it as a "multi-use solution" for different companies to resell to customers as business-class products.

However, I give it up to Apple. They basically are selling 4 different sizes of the same thing (two that can make telephone calls) and are making that cheddar cheezy.
2012-12-01 10:37:57 AM
1 votes:

t3knomanser: rocky_howard: the funny thing is that Apple's success with the iOS devices primed the consumer to expect exactly that. fark Apple

It's a trade-off. Apple positions its mobile devices as consumer electronics. Complaining that they won't let you run the software of your choice is like complaining that your microwave doesn't run Linux. There's certainly a place in the market for general purpose devices, and there always will be. But for most users, most of the time, Apple's model works very well.

Or, to put it another way, most people can't be arsed to install a non-IE web-browser. Now you expect them to run alternative web browsers and other apps on their phone?


Sadly, I'm in need of a new smartphone now that my blackberry is dying and the iPhone 5 sounds like the best option out there.

I don't entirely like it, but I like it more than other platforms, from software to hardware. I'd love for it to have widgets though, that's something Android does pretty nicely.

Now, the big reason why I'm not decided yet? iTunes. I H.A.T.E. dealing with that program and the fact that I can't drag n drop stuff in and out of the phone is disgusting. So I may put up with Android's bullshiat if I decide iTunes isn't worth the trouble.

Any word about the Nokia Lumia 920? Windows Phone intrigues me and it looks better than Android for me. But what about support and all that stuff?
2012-12-01 10:37:55 AM
1 votes:

t3knomanser: Or, to put it another way, most people can't be arsed to install a non-IE web-browser. Now you expect them to run alternative web browsers and other apps on their phone?


That's not really the same. We might laugh at people who run IE, but they do have the option to install Chrome.

What Apple have done is take a computer and deliberately cripple it. They didn't even take the Android route of allowing sideloading with a "here be dragons" button.
2012-12-01 10:35:38 AM
1 votes:

DoomPaul: I love Game of Thrones but HBO doesn't make the show available for purchase online or streaming, so I pirate it. If they made it easily accessible on something like Amazon video then I would gladly pay for it.


I just checked Xfinity.

If you're a Comcast subscriber, the first two seasons of Game of Thrones is available for streaming. Plus there are about 10,000 clips and features about Game of Thrones that are also available. And, you can always watch the show on OnDemand.
2012-12-01 10:28:08 AM
1 votes:

rocky_howard: the funny thing is that Apple's success with the iOS devices primed the consumer to expect exactly that. fark Apple


It's a trade-off. Apple positions its mobile devices as consumer electronics. Complaining that they won't let you run the software of your choice is like complaining that your microwave doesn't run Linux. There's certainly a place in the market for general purpose devices, and there always will be. But for most users, most of the time, Apple's model works very well.

Or, to put it another way, most people can't be arsed to install a non-IE web-browser. Now you expect them to run alternative web browsers and other apps on their phone?
2012-12-01 10:23:11 AM
1 votes:
Option A: Purchase software/movie/song/game/etc and deal with unskippable portions, locked content, DRM, etc.

Option B: Pirate the software for free and forego any DRM or related headaches and have an astronomically low chance of being caught/fined/imprisoned.

Don't be surprised when people go for Option B. I love Game of Thrones but HBO doesn't make the show available for purchase online or streaming, so I pirate it. If they made it easily accessible on something like Amazon video then I would gladly pay for it.
2012-12-01 09:07:47 AM
1 votes:

SecretAgentWoman: But then I download via BitTorrent anyway so I can use it.


I tend to do the same, especially because for certain things, Bittorrent is significantly faster than ripping the content off the DVD I own (and even if it's not faster, it's less effort for both me and my CPU).
 
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