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(PopCrush Albany)   So you say your house burnt down just in time for the holidays and you have nothing left? Hmmm Awkward. Here's a water bill for the hydrant the fire dept used to water down the leftover debris once known as your home and stuff. Ok-thanks-bye   (popcrush1057.com) divider line 101
    More: Asinine, fluid pressure  
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8197 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Dec 2012 at 1:13 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-12-01 02:24:36 AM  
fark that

if i didn't order the water
i aint payin for it


so get off your lazy fireman asses
and start rolling around the blaze

you motha uckas
 
2012-12-01 02:25:15 AM  
It's still bullshiat and nonsense. If my city's firefighters used water from the neighboring city to put out the fire, that's THEIR problem, not mine. Send the bill to the city. I didn't choose which hydrant they used.
 
2012-12-01 02:29:53 AM  

Krieghund: BarkingUnicorn: It's the shipping and handling charges that got him. Link

Oooh, that link was very informative.

The firefighters got their water from a hydrant located in a different city than the house that was on fire. No wonder the homeowners got a bill.


It gets better. The town that billed the homeowner buys its water from the town in which the home was.
 
2012-12-01 02:40:25 AM  

Lsherm: As I pointed out in another thread, 70% of all fire departments in the US are volunteer. That means you pay if you have a fire.


no nitwit. It means they don't get paid a salary and don't work 40 hrs a week at the fire station, they get paid by the call. they are still paid for by taxes.
 
2012-12-01 02:41:15 AM  
What about the greenhouse gasses? I would sleep a little better knowing this family was responsible for the carbon footprint they left behind when all those things sent emissions into the air. Not really, but how far can they take this? Looks like they are selling the water at Mexican market value. Couldn't you just assess how much that water actually cost, and then be a decent person and realize the actual value isn't worth further upsetting the family instead of looking at an artificially inflated sum and reaching the conclusion that the water can't be added to the loss column? I know this has all been covered in this thread but after reading the article it's like my brain ate taco bell and now it just can't contain itself.
 
2012-12-01 02:42:31 AM  

Mock26: Amazing how many people either did not read the article or simply did not understand it. The bill was NOT from the village where the person lived. It was from the neighboring village.


I did, both, and it's still a dick move. It works out to .31 per villager. Also, what goes around comes around, and that town better hope that the firefighters don't have to fight any fires in THEIR town using the nearby town's water supply any time soon, because karma's a biatch, but pissed-off neighbors are even worse.

But the fire department is helping pay the bill, and I think that's great. Although they shouldn't have to.
 
2012-12-01 02:45:53 AM  
He's giving them lumps of coal in their stockings, which are, quite ironically, the last of his few remaining possessions.
 
2012-12-01 02:51:14 AM  

jtown: Wouldn't homeowner's insurance cover that sort of thing?


Ding! Ding! Ding!

We have a winner!
 
2012-12-01 03:26:26 AM  

Sin_City_Superhero: In some rural areas (and I do not know if this is one of them) residents do not pay the same taxes as the in-town folk. That being the case, they also do not enjoy the same benefits. Again, I do not know if this applies in this particular case, I'm just sayin'...


well now, this bit of non-information really added to the discussion.
 
2012-12-01 03:44:12 AM  

MisterTweak: Funny, how people scream and moan that they want smaller government, without really putting too much thought into exactly what it is that government spends all that tax money on, and how things might change when they have to pick up the tab individually, rather than as a community.


Commas. How do the work?
 
2012-12-01 03:50:04 AM  

Jesda: MisterTweak: Funny, how people scream and moan that they want smaller government, without really putting too much thought into exactly what it is that government spends all that tax money on, and how things might change when they have to pick up the tab individually, rather than as a community.

Most objections to small government have to do with the expansion of federal powers worldwide, not local fire services.


Actually, "most" are vague to the point that equates "I pay to much in taxes".

In your world of wishful thinking "most" people have a clue as to what or where their tax money goes, and a moral sense as to what is legitimate or not.

Enjoy your fantasy, but please don't try to proffer it as reality.

Reality is, people are selfish and ignorant, and just don't like the vague concept of big government that costs them money. Vote for tax cuts, complain about potholes, poor public education, poor law enforcement and a thousand other things that not-so-common sense tells you is what those taxes would have gone to.

Believing "most" people are not ignorant and selfish is really sort of disgustingly ignorant in and of itself.
 
2012-12-01 03:54:06 AM  
Its an insurance expense.

Plus, like doctors, they're only allowed to bill you if the patient LIVED.
 
2012-12-01 04:22:03 AM  
How do you mail someone a bill after their house is destroyed?
 
2012-12-01 04:25:23 AM  

HotWingAgenda: How do you mail someone a bill after their house is destroyed?


P.O. Box.
General Delivery.
They hold it at the post office till the recipient comes to pick it up.

Just because the HOUSE is destroyed doesn't mean the RESIDENT disappeared.
 
2012-12-01 04:45:41 AM  

HotWingAgenda: How do you mail someone a bill after their house is destroyed?


mail box
 
2012-12-01 06:18:32 AM  
I could be wrong, but I can't ever recall seeing a water meter on a fire hydrant. Just how are they calculating how much water to charge these people for?
 
2012-12-01 06:38:11 AM  

prjindigo: Its an insurance expense.

Plus, like doctors, they're only allowed to bill you if the patient LIVED.


Um, is this true? They don't collect from the deceased's estate?

No wonder the docs on tv get so upset when the patient dies. (just giving y'all medical folks hell, but i really am curious about the billing for a terminal procedure thing. I tried to look it up but my Google fu failed me. I must meditate)
 
2012-12-01 06:55:11 AM  

bubo_sibiricus: Jesda: Most objections to small government have to do with the expansion of federal powers worldwide, not local fire services.

Bullshiat. You've never been to a town council meeting.


Most objections to local government in New York have to do with the state dumping billions in unfunded mandates (above and beyond federal mandates) on local governments and schools. Any beef somebody has at a town council meeting can ultimately be traced to some dipshiat in Albany.
 
2012-12-01 07:26:39 AM  
I don't understand. Are you guys outraged on behalf of the insurance company that will end up paying for this? Because you'd have to be pants crappingly insane not to buy homeowner's insurance...
 
2012-12-01 07:46:21 AM  

Well Armed Sheep: prjindigo: Its an insurance expense.

Plus, like doctors, they're only allowed to bill you if the patient LIVED.

Um, is this true? They don't collect from the deceased's estate?

No wonder the docs on tv get so upset when the patient dies. (just giving y'all medical folks hell, but i really am curious about the billing for a terminal procedure thing. I tried to look it up but my Google fu failed me. I must meditate)


I think it was sarcasm or a failed attempt at humor. Doctors most certainly bill the estate of dead patients.
 
2012-12-01 07:51:14 AM  

omnimancer28: Well Armed Sheep: prjindigo: Its an insurance expense.

Plus, like doctors, they're only allowed to bill you if the patient LIVED.

Um, is this true? They don't collect from the deceased's estate?

No wonder the docs on tv get so upset when the patient dies. (just giving y'all medical folks hell, but i really am curious about the billing for a terminal procedure thing. I tried to look it up but my Google fu failed me. I must meditate)

I think it was sarcasm or a failed attempt at humor. Doctors most certainly bill the estate of dead patients.


Oh, ok. Thank you.
 
2012-12-01 08:25:38 AM  
Why doesn't the town where the homeowner lives just transfer to the other town the same amount of water used fighting the blaze? Problem solved,
 
2012-12-01 09:05:13 AM  
$1,400?

House was still burned down?

What did the firepeople actually accomplish?
 
2012-12-01 09:10:20 AM  

omnimancer28: Doctors most certainly bill the estate of dead patients.


And I'm sure most survivors tell them to get bent.
 
2012-12-01 09:23:55 AM  

StoPPeRmobile: $1,400?

House was still burned down?

What did the firepeople actually accomplish?


They kept all of Eagle Mills from going up. It's a heavily treed area, without the 500' clearances around houses for trees normally given in fire country.

What's really going on is that all of these tiny little villages and hamlets have reciprocity agreements. They don't bill each other for water and they all work together to cover the area, which is a goofy jjigsaw of tiny jurisdictions. Eagle Mills, Brunswick, Pittstown have never billed for their coverage or water provision for other fires.

Poestenkill are being assholes. Not surprising, considering the sketchy dump that it has become.

/lived in Albany for 10 years :P
 
2012-12-01 09:48:01 AM  
Who actually used the water? The fire department.

They should get the bill.
 
2012-12-01 10:01:45 AM  

bunner: "You know all that sh*t that people pay taxes for?"

"Yeah."

"Let's bill them for it anyhoo."

"Brilliant."



Reading comprehension - get some! The home owners NEVER PAID taxes for water. Please explain why they should get it for free.

They also probably got a break on their HO ins for having municipal water near by when they were on a well.
 
2012-12-01 10:20:53 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: The Jami Turman Fan Club:

$1400 water bill? How many millions of gallons did they use?

"Poestenkill buys its water at a rate of $4.35 per thousand gallons... firefighters used 73,000 gallons of Poestenkill's water..." So, $317.55 worth of water.

It's the shipping and handling charges that got him. Link

"Water is pumped into large holding tanks and then pumped up a hill as crews battled a house fire on Garfield Road on Monday, Nov. 26, 2012 in Eagle Mills, N.Y. Because of a lack of water at the scene, water had to be trucked in."

[ww1.hdnux.com image 628x417]


$4.35 per thousand? Damn, I pay about half that, and I live in the freakin desert.
 
2012-12-01 10:50:37 AM  
Good thing none of ones family died , they would charge you for the body bags!!!
 
2012-12-01 11:16:18 AM  

log_jammin: Lsherm: As I pointed out in another thread, 70% of all fire departments in the US are volunteer. That means you pay if you have a fire.

no nitwit. It means they don't get paid a salary and don't work 40 hrs a week at the fire station, they get paid by the call. they are still paid for by taxes.


No, nitwit, it means that they may not even get paid for it. My department doesn't pay per call and gets no tax money and the only government support we got was the occasional handmedown truck from the forest service that we had to pay to convert to fire service.
 
2012-12-01 11:57:09 AM  
As a UK farker I don't understand why you have volunteer fire services - can anyone explain? Why do towns and villages pay for these things individually, why not have a state level service that covers everything in that state instead?
 
2012-12-01 11:57:56 AM  

Krieghund: BarkingUnicorn: It's the shipping and handling charges that got him. Link

Oooh, that link was very informative.

The firefighters got their water from a hydrant located in a different city than the house that was on fire. No wonder the homeowners got a bill.


The firefighters used the water, the bill should have gone to them, then to the city, not to the home owner. The house was built within city limits but the city did not provide proper resources for firefighters. If he built within city limits and to city code, he has a reasonable expectation to city services.
 
2012-12-01 12:04:41 PM  
That should go with the insurance claim.
 
2012-12-01 12:07:00 PM  

Lsherm: ZAZ: Emergency services are supposed to be free where I live. The fire department is paid for by taxes and is considered a basic government service. Cities can't even charge higher taxes for people with harder-to-extinguish buildings.

As I pointed out in another thread, 70% of all fire departments in the US are volunteer. That means you pay if you have a fire. And if you use another county's water to fight a fire, you have to pay that county for it.

This is what services actually cost, which is why the people in the story are being billed. Some people don't understand that services cost money, just:

Emergency services are supposed to be free where I live. The fire department is paid for by taxes

That about sums it up. "Free" and "paid for by taxes" are interchangeable to the this mindset.


Except that this is the point of having taxes. It's not free but the service has already been paid for. Why should there be any taxes at all if you are going to be charged for the services anyway
 
2012-12-01 12:32:52 PM  

Spiralmonkey: As a UK farker I don't understand why you have volunteer fire services - can anyone explain? Why do towns and villages pay for these things individually, why not have a state level service that covers everything in that state instead?


Because the USA is a *big* country, and to be effective a fire-service needs to have a firehouse close to its protection district. We have little towns spread out across a large area, and each one of those little towns needs to have at least a *basic* firehouse with personnel and equipment. So (for a little town with limited tax income) it's more effective to have a volunteer department for a few reasons:
1. 90% of the cost of a fire department is personnel costs: wages, training, etc.
2. It makes no sense to spend all that money on full-time firefighters/EMS for a town that seems maybe 3 decent sized fires a year, and a handful of car wrecks.
3. Volunteer departments allows can focus their limited income equipment and maintenance.
4. Even with limited equipment, a small volunteer department can contain a fire until mutual aid from surrounding towns can make it to the scene. 

To try and do that at the state level would be expensive, and no politician is going to try and pitch that idea in this era of "cut everything".
 
2012-12-01 12:36:04 PM  

TheRealist II: Good thing none of ones family died , they would charge you for the body bags!!!


Body bags ain't free.
 
2012-12-01 12:53:30 PM  

buzzcut73: BarkingUnicorn: The Jami Turman Fan Club:

$1400 water bill? How many millions of gallons did they use?

"Poestenkill buys its water at a rate of $4.35 per thousand gallons... firefighters used 73,000 gallons of Poestenkill's water..." So, $317.55 worth of water.

It's the shipping and handling charges that got him. Link

"Water is pumped into large holding tanks and then pumped up a hill as crews battled a house fire on Garfield Road on Monday, Nov. 26, 2012 in Eagle Mills, N.Y. Because of a lack of water at the scene, water had to be trucked in."

[ww1.hdnux.com image 628x417]

$4.35 per thousand? Damn, I pay about half that, and I live in the freakin desert.


Man, I knew I was getting raped by FGUA, but damn....

$5.07/1k gallons to start, up to $7.63 for over 18k. That's just water. Sewer is $8/1k gallon additional, but they at least cap it at 6k gallons.

And then there's the monthly connect fee of at least $50/mo.
 
2012-12-01 02:03:19 PM  

soze: StoPPeRmobile: $1,400?

House was still burned down?

What did the firepeople actually accomplish?

They kept all of Eagle Mills from going up. It's a heavily treed area, without the 500' clearances around houses for trees normally given in fire country.

What's really going on is that all of these tiny little villages and hamlets have reciprocity agreements. They don't bill each other for water and they all work together to cover the area, which is a goofy jjigsaw of tiny jurisdictions. Eagle Mills, Brunswick, Pittstown have never billed for their coverage or water provision for other fires.

Poestenkill are being assholes. Not surprising, considering the sketchy dump that it has become.

/lived in Albany for 10 years :P


The funniest part is that Poestenkill buys its water from Brunswick, where the house was.
 
2012-12-01 03:20:56 PM  

ArcadianRefugee: OXYGEN tax? Carbon tax, I say! Think of all the carbon released into the atmosphere because of their fire.


DAMN YOU, INANIMATE CARBON TAX!


TheRealist II: they would charge you for the body bags!!!


Which would greatly change the end of The Karate Kid.

"GET 'IM A BODY BAG! AND CHARGE HIM FOR IT! YEAAAAAAAAAH!"
 
2012-12-01 03:41:55 PM  
Yea, it can't be about helping your neighbors. God, forbid. Cutting taxes? Really. Hey, if you don't agree to higher taxes for ball parks, a new library and a nice car for municipal administrators, then your house will burn down.
Your house burned down anyway? oh, well, here's a bill for the water we used to surround and drown the fire.
 
2012-12-01 04:12:50 PM  

Lsherm: ZAZ: Emergency services are supposed to be free where I live. The fire department is paid for by taxes and is considered a basic government service. Cities can't even charge higher taxes for people with harder-to-extinguish buildings.

As I pointed out in another thread, 70% of all fire departments in the US are volunteer. That means you pay if you have a fire. And if you use another county's water to fight a fire, you have to pay that county for it.

This is what services actually cost, which is why the people in the story are being billed. Some people don't understand that services cost money, just:

Emergency services are supposed to be free where I live. The fire department is paid for by taxes

That about sums it up. "Free" and "paid for by taxes" are interchangeable to the this mindset.


I think what ZAZ meant is that when you pay your taxes, you aren't supposed to have to pay extra for the same service, because you already paid for it. Imagine if you went to a restaurant, had a great meal, paid the bill, and a week later got the bill again in the mail.

It being volunteer does make sense, but it also points to why the area's firefighting system is entirely farked up.
 
2012-12-01 07:53:47 PM  

Gyrfalcon: Mock26: Amazing how many people either did not read the article or simply did not understand it. The bill was NOT from the village where the person lived. It was from the neighboring village.

I did, both, and it's still a dick move. It works out to .31 per villager. Also, what goes around comes around, and that town better hope that the firefighters don't have to fight any fires in THEIR town using the nearby town's water supply any time soon, because karma's a biatch, but pissed-off neighbors are even worse.

But the fire department is helping pay the bill, and I think that's great. Although they shouldn't have to.


Do not get me wrong, but I, too, think that it is a dick move.
 
2012-12-01 09:02:48 PM  

log_jammin: Lsherm: As I pointed out in another thread, 70% of all fire departments in the US are volunteer. That means you pay if you have a fire.

no nitwit. It means they don't get paid a salary and don't work 40 hrs a week at the fire station, they get paid by the call. they are still paid for by taxes.


That's actually not what it means. Most volunteer firemen do not get paid.
 
2012-12-01 11:55:16 PM  

Lsherm: That's actually not what it means. Most volunteer firemen do not get paid.


so you keep asserting without citation.
 
2012-12-02 12:57:54 AM  

log_jammin: Lsherm: That's actually not what it means. Most volunteer firemen do not get paid.

so you keep asserting without citation.


You keep asserting they do get paid without citation. What would I know, I only volunteer at my local fire station for IT work. Some districts pay a small stipend per call for firefighters with certification or supervisory roles, but they aren't anywhere near minimum wage. Other departments pay $5 per call. Most don't pay anything to the volunteers. Mine doesn't. It pays a chief a salary of a whopping 12 grand a year, and he's expected to be on call 24/7. They pay the mechanic they have on retainer 30 grand a year. The firefighters don't get paid anything except gas reimbursements for getting to fires and for equipment, which they have to buy themselves. Equipment is funded by fundraisers they run throughout the year.

Maybe if you weren't so goddamn lazy you could do some reading. Depending on the county, there's no call based pay, and for districts with call based pay, it's trivial. There's an actual distinction between "paid volunteer firefighter" and "volunteer firefighter."
 
2012-12-02 01:11:14 AM  

Lsherm: What would I know, I only volunteer at my local fire station for IT work.


well that's certainly more than a dispatcher like me would know. I mean, I only work with them on a daily basis and know exactly what they get paid. Oh it's a small town too, about 5k. The town I live in is less than 250 people, and guess what? They get paid by the call as well. Your idea that volunteer fire departments consist of nothing more than neighbors forming bucket lines to the local well, using buckets purchased from the proceeds of bake sale, is rather cute. Not true, but cute.


Lsherm: Maybe if you weren't so goddamn lazy you could do some reading.


You really used a message board as a citation??? LOL!
 
2012-12-02 01:49:56 AM  

Lsherm: You keep asserting they do get paid without citation. What would I know, I only volunteer at my local fire station for IT work. Some districts pay a small stipend per call for firefighters with certification or supervisory roles, but they aren't anywhere near minimum wage. Other departments pay $5 per call. Most don't pay anything to the volunteers.


That depends on the town.

My local FD is 100% volunteer. No pay for the firefighters, and all costs are provided by federal grants, fundraisers, and semi-annual donation letters.

The FD of the next town over is "volunteer" as well, but they have a full-time paid staff, they get money from local taxes, and they bill the insurance company for virtually everything they use during the call (though they will drop the bill if there's no insurance).
 
2012-12-02 01:52:36 AM  

log_jammin: Lsherm: What would I know, I only volunteer at my local fire station for IT work.

well that's certainly more than a dispatcher like me would know. I mean, I only work with them on a daily basis and know exactly what they get paid. Oh it's a small town too, about 5k. The town I live in is less than 250 people, and guess what? They get paid by the call as well. Your idea that volunteer fire departments consist of nothing more than neighbors forming bucket lines to the local well, using buckets purchased from the proceeds of bake sale, is rather cute. Not true, but cute.


Lsherm: Maybe if you weren't so goddamn lazy you could do some reading.

You really used a message board as a citation??? LOL!


You get paid, don't you?
 
2012-12-02 02:13:25 AM  

Lsherm: You get paid, don't you?


what my pay is or isn't is completely irrelevant to your claims that 1. if a volunteer FD puts out your house fire, "that means you pay if you have a fire", and 2. volunteer fire fighters all work for free.

maybe snopes has a thread on the subject you can link to.
 
2012-12-02 03:20:03 AM  

log_jammin: Lsherm: You get paid, don't you?

what my pay is or isn't is completely irrelevant to your claims that 1. if a volunteer FD puts out your house fire, "that means you pay if you have a fire", and 2. volunteer fire fighters all work for free.

maybe snopes has a thread on the subject you can link to.


We work for free. I understand that's a hard concept for you to understand. I also understand it's hard for you to understand.
 
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