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(The Weather Channel)   Mt. Shasta may receive a record-shattering 218 inches of global warming this weekend   (weather.com) divider line 197
    More: Spiffy, global warming, warm air, National Weather Service  
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10814 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Nov 2012 at 4:50 PM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-30 06:07:07 PM  
18 feet of Nature's talcum powder. Holy snowballs, Batman!
 
2012-11-30 06:11:54 PM  
Out of curiosity, has anyone ever heard of potential solutions to global warming climate change that does not involve increasing taxes? I never really understood how taxing producers more money will reduce change the global temperature. I don't mean to over simplify....
 
2012-11-30 06:13:28 PM  

occamswrist: dericwater: And Ms Shasta is going to receive 24.0 inches of my global warming this weekend.

/Lots of pounding, driving warming.

You missed a decimal point in there but I fixed it for you. No, you don't have to thank me.


Well, I was counting the cumulative total inches from 30 strokes. On Saturday. And 30 strokes on Sunday. :-(
 
2012-11-30 06:15:00 PM  

ladyfortuna: Ok, as much as I love weather.com, someone needs to get fired or at least reprimanded for this garbage:

The Thursday morning National Weather Service summit forecast for Shasta predicted an incredible 33 to 39 inches of snow -- just for Thursday alone.

(By comparison, Atlanta, Ga., has reported 38.9 inches of snow since March 1, 1989 -- a period of over 23 years.)

You can't logically compare a freaking MOUNTAIN top with Atlanta, Georgia. No shiat, a city in the US south gets less snow than a mountain in the PNW/Cascades?

/weather rage



Big ol' THIS

Mt. Baker says "LOL WUT?" to these weak comparisons
 
2012-11-30 06:15:33 PM  

occamswrist: dericwater: And Ms Shasta is going to receive 24.0 inches of my global warming this weekend.

/Lots of pounding, driving warming.

You missed a decimal point in there but I fixed it for you. No, you don't have to thank me.


Holy shiat I put the decimal point in the wrong place. I give up.
 
2012-11-30 06:23:41 PM  

zarberg: I love asking global climate change deniers what the first law of thermodynamics is and then watching them stand there with a dumb look on their face.


It's just a guess, but they probably know what a "closed system" is, think about trying to explain it to you and realize they're dumb for trying to argue with an idiot.

But it's just a guess.
 
2012-11-30 06:28:50 PM  
Are you a global warming skeptic? There are plenty of good reasons why you might be.

As many as 757 stations in the United States recorded net surface-temperature cooling over the past century. Many are concentrated in the southeast, where some people attribute tornadoes and hurricanes to warming.

We do not know how much worse are included in temperature-stations in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more. The most important stations in the stations by a team led by meteorologist Anthony Watts showed that, by the U.S. are included in temperature-stations in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more.

We know and caused in the global estimates? That cities show the last 50 years. Could than areal, but 2ºC in that rise, about 2ºC in the global estimates? Tokyo's temperature sunlight than dioxide reasonably increasonably increas, has nothe last 50 years. Tokyo's temperature sunlight that cities increases show ther LISTEN TO ME! Urban do treenhous warming materials; asphalt, for in than areal, building may been unreal, but it have be about it has. Ber-re has ouresults rat www.Ber groject two soline Project www.Berked justed four two pers on ournals. I ch Sure Tempers two yearthe Tempeeply at atures th Surface Prournals. I ch Sur th.org two yearthes on onliny. Ove now paperkeleyEars, We aturnals.

ppphhhhhhtttzzz
 
2012-11-30 06:30:23 PM  
Oh for fark's sake. Is this really how we're going to kick off the weekend? Go be stupid somewhere else subby.
 
2012-11-30 06:32:27 PM  

Optimus Composite: zarberg: I love asking global climate change deniers what the first law of thermodynamics is and then watching them stand there with a dumb look on their face.

What does that have to do with global warming? Do you mean the zeroth law? That has more to do with temperature. But then temperature is different from heat, so maybe you mean the second law, which would be more applicable to global atmospheric climate.


I believe he's referring to the "equal and opposite reaction" as a way of explaining that temperature increases in one are coincide with decreases in other areas. It's a simplistic way of putting the issue.

Those pointing out that warmer ocean temperatures lead to more evaporation and precipitation are probably closer to that mark.
 
2012-11-30 06:33:37 PM  
Denizen of dry, hot Colorado checking in.

Eat shiat, submitter, you worthless farkstain.
 
2012-11-30 06:33:58 PM  
motores.com.py
 
2012-11-30 06:35:31 PM  

sinner3k: Optimus Composite: zarberg: I love asking global climate change deniers what the first law of thermodynamics is and then watching them stand there with a dumb look on their face.

What does that have to do with global warming? Do you mean the zeroth law? That has more to do with temperature. But then temperature is different from heat, so maybe you mean the second law, which would be more applicable to global atmospheric climate.

I believe he's referring to the "equal and opposite reaction" as a way of explaining that temperature increases in one are coincide with decreases in other areas. It's a simplistic way of putting the issue.

Those pointing out that warmer ocean temperatures lead to more evaporation and precipitation are probably closer to that mark.


Was this post created by a random jargon generator?
 
2012-11-30 06:37:30 PM  

tylerdurden217: sinner3k: Optimus Composite: zarberg: I love asking global climate change deniers what the first law of thermodynamics is and then watching them stand there with a dumb look on their face.

What does that have to do with global warming? Do you mean the zeroth law? That has more to do with temperature. But then temperature is different from heat, so maybe you mean the second law, which would be more applicable to global atmospheric climate.

I believe he's referring to the "equal and opposite reaction" as a way of explaining that temperature increases in one are coincide with decreases in other areas. It's a simplistic way of putting the issue.

Those pointing out that warmer ocean temperatures lead to more evaporation and precipitation are probably closer to that mark.

Was this post created by a random jargon generator?


I did not mean to respond to this one!! dammit... Control Z??
 
2012-11-30 06:38:06 PM  
What bullshiat. Let that snow come to CO, please. I don't want to wait until next year for the slopes to be decent.
 
vpc
2012-11-30 06:38:41 PM  

ladyfortuna: Ok, as much as I love weather.com, someone needs to get fired or at least reprimanded for this garbage:

The Thursday morning National Weather Service summit forecast for Shasta predicted an incredible 33 to 39 inches of snow -- just for Thursday alone.

(By comparison, Atlanta, Ga., has reported 38.9 inches of snow since March 1, 1989 -- a period of over 23 years.)

You can't logically compare a freaking MOUNTAIN top with Atlanta, Georgia. No shiat, a city in the US south gets less snow than a mountain in the PNW/Cascades?

/weather rage


came to say this; leaving satisfied.

/lives in Atlanta
 
2012-11-30 06:38:45 PM  

ivan: Are you a global warming skeptic? There are plenty of good reasons why you might be.

As many as 757 stations in the United States recorded net surface-temperature cooling over the past century. Many are concentrated in the southeast, where some people attribute tornadoes and hurricanes to warming.

We do not know how much worse are included in temperature-stations in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more. The most important stations in the stations by a team led by meteorologist Anthony Watts showed that, by the U.S. are included in temperature-stations in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more.

We know and caused in the global estimates? That cities show the last 50 years. Could than areal, but 2ºC in that rise, about 2ºC in the global estimates? Tokyo's temperature sunlight than dioxide reasonably increasonably increas, has nothe last 50 years. Tokyo's temperature sunlight that cities increases show ther LISTEN TO ME! Urban do treenhous warming materials; asphalt, for in than areal, building may been unreal, but it have be about it has. Ber-re has ouresults rat www.Ber groject two soline Project www.Berked justed four two pers on ournals. I ch Sure Tempers two yearthe Tempeeply at atures th Surface Prournals. I ch Sur th.org two yearthes on onliny. Ove now paperkeleyEars, We aturnals.

ppphhhhhhtttzzz



Beautiful.
 
2012-11-30 06:39:00 PM  

ivan: Are you a global warming skeptic? There are plenty of good reasons why you might be.

As many as 757 stations in the United States recorded net surface-temperature cooling over the past century. Many are concentrated in the southeast, where some people attribute tornadoes and hurricanes to warming.

We do not know how much worse are included in temperature-stations in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more. The most important stations in the stations by a team led by meteorologist Anthony Watts showed that, by the U.S. are included in temperature-stations in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more.

We know and caused in the global estimates? That cities show the last 50 years. Could than areal, but 2ºC in that rise, about 2ºC in the global estimates? Tokyo's temperature sunlight than dioxide reasonably increasonably increas, has nothe last 50 years. Tokyo's temperature sunlight that cities increases show ther LISTEN TO ME! Urban do treenhous warming materials; asphalt, for in than areal, building may been unreal, but it have be about it has. Ber-re has ouresults rat www.Ber groject two soline Project www.Berked justed four two pers on ournals. I ch Sure Tempers two yearthe Tempeeply at atures th Surface Prournals. I ch Sur th.org two yearthes on onliny. Ove now paperkeleyEars, We aturnals.

ppphhhhhhtttzzz


This is the post that appears to have been created by a random jargon generator. Probably one located in a station in a station.
 
2012-11-30 06:47:43 PM  
Are Mt. Faygo and Mt. Fanta expecting any snow?
 
2012-11-30 06:51:19 PM  
I want a thrill! I want a wow! I want it all! I want it now!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OXgsa9j81Ng
 
2012-11-30 06:53:57 PM  

cameroncrazy1984: RobertBruce: Also has a glacier which has been "inexplicably" growing the past few years.

It's not inexplicable. Warmer air causes more moisture in the atmosphere which then freezes at altitude. Bam, growing glacier.


Less precipitation? Global warming, give me money!
More precipitation? Global warming, give me money!
 
2012-11-30 06:55:43 PM  

tylerdurden217: This is the post that appears to have been created by a random jargon generator. Probably one located in a station in a station.


Oh. I think I get the joke. It's in GREEN.
 
2012-11-30 06:57:41 PM  

zarberg: I love asking global climate change deniers what the first law of thermodynamics is and then watching them stand there with a dumb look on their face.


That's the one about tending toward perpetual motion, right?
 
2012-11-30 07:04:14 PM  

ivan: Are you a global warming skeptic? There are plenty of good reasons why you might be.

As many as 757 stations in the United States recorded net surface-temperature cooling over the past century. Many are concentrated in the southeast, where some people attribute tornadoes and hurricanes to warming.

We do not know how much worse are included in temperature-stations in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more. The most important stations in the stations by a team led by meteorologist Anthony Watts showed that, by the U.S. are included in temperature-stations in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more.

We know and caused in the global estimates? That cities show the last 50 years. Could than areal, but 2ºC in that rise, about 2ºC in the global estimates? Tokyo's temperature sunlight than dioxide reasonably increasonably increas, has nothe last 50 years. Tokyo's temperature sunlight that cities increases show ther LISTEN TO ME! Urban do treenhous warming materials; asphalt, for in than areal, building may been unreal, but it have be about it has. Ber-re has ouresults rat www.Ber groject two soline Project www.Berked justed four two pers on ournals. I ch Sure Tempers two yearthe Tempeeply at atures th Surface Prournals. I ch Sur th.org two yearthes on onliny. Ove now paperkeleyEars, We aturnals.

ppphhhhhhtttzzz


This must be a bastardized version of this draft paper:

Link

that shows climatologists have used poor weather station data and artificial "adjsuting" to double the amount of warming the highest quality station data is showing.
 
2012-11-30 07:04:53 PM  

Nutsac_Jim: cameroncrazy1984: RobertBruce: Also has a glacier which has been "inexplicably" growing the past few years.

It's not inexplicable. Warmer air causes more moisture in the atmosphere which then freezes at altitude. Bam, growing glacier.

Less precipitation? Global warming, give me money!
More precipitation? Global warming, give me money!



Because climate scientists are known for their profit-based motives. 

Feel free to locate a climate researcher making six-figures.
 
2012-11-30 07:07:55 PM  
I don't have any snark to bring to this thread. I just wanted to say that Mount Shasta is one of the most beautiful natural features I have had the good fortune to see in person. Even if it was only from I-5.
 
2012-11-30 07:12:55 PM  

occamswrist: ivan: Are you a global warming skeptic? There are plenty of good reasons why you might be.

As many as 757 stations in the United States recorded net surface-temperature cooling over the past century. Many are concentrated in the southeast, where some people attribute tornadoes and hurricanes to warming.

We do not know how much worse are included in temperature-stations in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more. The most important stations in the stations by a team led by meteorologist Anthony Watts showed that, by the U.S. are included in temperature-stations in temperature uncertainties of between two and five degrees Celsius or more.

We know and caused in the global estimates? That cities show the last 50 years. Could than areal, but 2ºC in that rise, about 2ºC in the global estimates? Tokyo's temperature sunlight than dioxide reasonably increasonably increas, has nothe last 50 years. Tokyo's temperature sunlight that cities increases show ther LISTEN TO ME! Urban do treenhous warming materials; asphalt, for in than areal, building may been unreal, but it have be about it has. Ber-re has ouresults rat www.Ber groject two soline Project www.Berked justed four two pers on ournals. I ch Sure Tempers two yearthe Tempeeply at atures th Surface Prournals. I ch Sur th.org two yearthes on onliny. Ove now paperkeleyEars, We aturnals.

ppphhhhhhtttzzz

This must be a bastardized version of this draft paper:

Link

that shows climatologists have used poor weather station data and artificial "adjsuting" to double the amount of warming the highest quality station data is showing.



You're serious.

A meteorologist with a blog is calling out climatologists in their own field:

"I fully accept the previous findings of these papers, including that of the Muller et al 2012 paper. These investigators found exactly what would be expected given the siting metadata they had. However, the Leroy 1999 site rating method employed to create the early metadata, and employed in the Fall et al 2011 paper I co-authored was incomplete, and didn't properly quantify the effects.

The new rating method employed finds that station siting does indeed have a significant effect on temperature trends."


Anthony Watts is the Dean Chambers of climate change.
 
2012-11-30 07:18:21 PM  

Wrathskellar: Climbed that sucker a couple years ago. Plenty of snow left in August. Not sure why TFA used a 1984 file photo. Here's one from Monday:

[www.anony.ws image 800x478]

/ yeah, comparing Atlanta to a 14,000 foot mountain top is pretty silly


A friend and I climbed it about 18 years ago, in April. We went up Military Pass on the north side, on snowmobiles to 8,000 feet, then hiked to the treeline for bivouac. Which side did you climb, and what time of year?
 
2012-11-30 07:20:46 PM  

Lando Lincoln: The note I leave behind after I go on a murderous rampage will read:

"I did it because people can't understand the difference between weather and global climate change."


Go for it. Like I said yesterday, anyone who thinks that "global warming" means it will never get cold again, or "global cooling" means it will never get hot again, deserves to die being massacred by a Farker in an insane killing frenzy, and nobody will miss them.
 
2012-11-30 07:21:15 PM  

RodneyToady: That's pretty McNasty.


Is it sad that i get that joke?
 
2012-11-30 07:22:56 PM  
It is NOT global Climate Change! It IS System Wide Climate Change. Every Planet in this Solar System is being warmed. It's all because My Ex loves her big assed Truck!

/To intelligent to give a fark
//likes to watch you idiots argue
///3 weeks left, RUN MOTHER TRUCKER!
 
2012-11-30 07:27:06 PM  

traylor: Yay global warming

[ll.broadbandsports.com image 640x480]


www.nastyhobbit.org
 
2012-11-30 07:31:21 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: A friend and I climbed it about 18 years ago, in April. We went up Military Pass on the north side, on snowmobiles to 8,000 feet, then hiked to the treeline for bivouac. Which side did you climb, and what time of year?


Snowmobiles to 8000 ft = awesome.

We did the Avalanche Gulch route in August. Overnight at Helen Lake, then crampons and ice axes up the snow field at about 3:00 am. The view at dawn from the Red Banks was unbelievable as the mountain cast an 80 mile long triangular shadow across the valley to the west. Glissade back down was pretty cool too.
 
2012-11-30 07:37:52 PM  

Linkster: /To intelligent to give a fark


Nice.
 
2012-11-30 07:40:12 PM  
If those numbers seem a little too hard to wrap your mind around, consider this:
[snip]
If the tallest living player in NBA history, Gheorghe Muresan, were to balance a life-size wax statue of himself on his head, two feet of snow would bury the top of the statue.


Yeah, because that is *so much* clearer than actual numbers.

Still pretty cool. Now I want to go snowboarding.
 
2012-11-30 07:46:27 PM  

Wrathskellar: Glissade back down was pretty cool too.


By far, the most fun of all! My sister lives out A-12, in Lake Shastina. My mom owned a ranch outside of Grenada. I grew up in Yreka and Fort Jones. I miss it so much. I hope to be up there in the Spring.
 
2012-11-30 07:50:04 PM  

skullkrusher: zarberg: I love asking global climate change deniers what the first law of thermodynamics is and then watching them stand there with a dumb look on their face.

it's "Don't talk about thermodynamics".
Duh



I was gonna say that, but it's still good advice. Especially when you're talkng to Creationists, Zero Energy Cranks and Global Warming Deniers. In fact, just don't talk about it unless you have a web link close to hand.
 
2012-11-30 07:55:31 PM  

UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Wrathskellar: Glissade back down was pretty cool too.

By far, the most fun of all! My sister lives out A-12, in Lake Shastina. My mom owned a ranch outside of Grenada. I grew up in Yreka and Fort Jones. I miss it so much. I hope to be up there in the Spring.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VckHIQjKLS8

I go for the outside pass a minute in.
 
2012-11-30 07:59:28 PM  
i1177.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-30 08:11:55 PM  
i1177.photobucket.com
 
2012-11-30 08:21:28 PM  

Wrathskellar: UNAUTHORIZED FINGER: Wrathskellar: Glissade back down was pretty cool too.

By far, the most fun of all! My sister lives out A-12, in Lake Shastina. My mom owned a ranch outside of Grenada. I grew up in Yreka and Fort Jones. I miss it so much. I hope to be up there in the Spring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VckHIQjKLS8

I go for the outside pass a minute in.


That's an awesome video. The north side is steeper but a more direct climb. We went up to the right of the black finger that points to the summit in the picture from the article:

i.imwx.com

We took off our crampons at the top, and did a standing glissade. Like telemark skiing, taking 50-60 foot strides. I hit some glare ice, and almost reached terminal velocity as my ice axe was just skittering off the surface. If I hadn't had my wrist loop on, I'd have slid 2,000 feet without stopping. Scared the hell out of me. We got back to the treeline, and the tent was GONE! High winds had carried it about 500 yards from where we'd bivvied. We found it just as it was getting too dark to see.

Have you been up Mount Eddy? That's another good climb, and it's on the PCT.
 
2012-11-30 08:22:18 PM  
There is a whole lotta WOOOOOSH in this here thread! Totally popcorn worthy.
 
2012-11-30 08:24:17 PM  
i.imgur.com

i.imgur.com
 
2012-11-30 08:34:34 PM  

titwrench: Wrathskellar: Climbed that sucker a couple years ago. Plenty of snow left in August. Not sure why TFA used a 1984 file photo. Here's one from Monday:



/ yeah, comparing Atlanta to a 14,000 foot mountain top is pretty silly

I'm doing Shasta and Whitney next year.


That uh... sounds like the lead in for an 'adult movie'... just thought you might want to know :D
 
2012-11-30 08:41:56 PM  

Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 640x960]

[i.imgur.com image 504x343]


Whenever someone mentions a scientific consensus about climate change, I'm reminded of this Einstein story:

"One Hundred Authors Against Einstein was published in 1931. When asked to comment on this denunciation of relativity by so many scientists, Einstein replied that to defeat relativity one did not need the word of 100 scientists, just one fact."

Encyclopedia Britannica Source

This isn't to say that the current band of climatologists are as wrong as the euclidean physicists, just that the "consensus argument" is an appeal to authority and I reject it categorically.
 
2012-11-30 08:45:50 PM  

skullkrusher: zarberg: I love asking global climate change deniers what the first law of thermodynamics is and then watching them stand there with a dumb look on their face.

it's "Don't talk about thermodynamics".
Duh


LOL

The first law of thermodynamics is:

NO SMOKING

/Sorry, that's actual the first rule of Robot Club.
 
2012-11-30 08:48:19 PM  

Wrathskellar: Climbed that sucker a couple years ago. Plenty of snow left in August. Not sure why TFA used a 1984 file photo. Here's one from Monday:

[www.anony.ws image 800x478]

/ yeah, comparing Atlanta to a 14,000 foot mountain top is pretty silly


I dunno
Lived in Atlanta, it was literally a thirty mile wide pile of rocks difficult to climb through and covered with white trash....;
 
2012-11-30 08:48:42 PM  

occamswrist: Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 640x960]

[i.imgur.com image 504x343]

Whenever someone mentions a scientific consensus about climate change, I'm reminded of this Einstein story:

"One Hundred Authors Against Einstein was published in 1931. When asked to comment on this denunciation of relativity by so many scientists, Einstein replied that to defeat relativity one did not need the word of 100 scientists, just one fact."

Encyclopedia Britannica Source

This isn't to say that the current band of climatologists are as wrong as the euclidean physicists, just that the "consensus argument" is an appeal to authority and I reject it categorically.


Are you waiting for something specific to disprove the scientific consensus? Because a lot of the people who were skeptical of Einstein's Theory of Relativity were waiting for data from observations from a solar eclipse which occurred some years after the theory was introduced. The data observed from the eclipse proved Einstein correct, by the way.
 
2012-11-30 08:57:53 PM  

occamswrist: Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 640x960]

[i.imgur.com image 504x343]

Whenever someone mentions a scientific consensus about climate change, I'm reminded of this Einstein story:

"One Hundred Authors Against Einstein was published in 1931. When asked to comment on this denunciation of relativity by so many scientists, Einstein replied that to defeat relativity one did not need the word of 100 scientists, just one fact."

Encyclopedia Britannica Source

This isn't to say that the current band of climatologists are as wrong as the euclidean physicists, just that the "consensus argument" is an appeal to authority and I reject it categorically.


"There are other matters about which experts are not agreed. Even when the experts all agree, they may well be mistaken. Einstein's view as to the magnitude of the deflection of light by gravitation would have been rejected by all experts not many years ago, yet it proved to be right. Nevertheless the opinion of experts, when it is unanimous, must be accepted by non-experts as more likely to be right than the opposite opinion." - Bertrand Russell On the Value of Scepticism
 
2012-11-30 09:04:33 PM  
I see the gullable ones here saying 'Well, NATURALLY it will snow more in the winter and be hotter in the summer'.

Well, make up your mind.

Nice thing about global warming, since its believers say it can't be proved false therefore it can cause any outcome they want it to.

Fools..
 
2012-11-30 09:05:01 PM  

Zeno-25: occamswrist: Zeno-25: [i.imgur.com image 640x960]

[i.imgur.com image 504x343]

Whenever someone mentions a scientific consensus about climate change, I'm reminded of this Einstein story:

"One Hundred Authors Against Einstein was published in 1931. When asked to comment on this denunciation of relativity by so many scientists, Einstein replied that to defeat relativity one did not need the word of 100 scientists, just one fact."

Encyclopedia Britannica Source

This isn't to say that the current band of climatologists are as wrong as the euclidean physicists, just that the "consensus argument" is an appeal to authority and I reject it categorically.

Are you waiting for something specific to disprove the scientific consensus? Because a lot of the people who were skeptical of Einstein's Theory of Relativity were waiting for data from observations from a solar eclipse which occurred some years after the theory was introduced. The data observed from the eclipse proved Einstein correct, by the way.


That eclipse was observed in 1919 but the book of 100 physicists I was referring to was published in 1931. Also, I read that solar eclipse data was very poor and shouldn't have been sufficient to prove general relativity. Odd, eh?

Also, Einstein has never been proven correct. His theories can explain phenomenon with a higher degree of precision than previous theories, but it's impossible to *prove* any theory.

Unfortunately the models used to predict global temperatures are not open-source even though they are government funded.

Did Einstein keep his theories and equations proprietary and expect physicists to trust him? Then why should climatologists be allowed to keep their models proprietary and secret?
 
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