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(Mother Jones)   All you need to know about the seven cases the Supreme Court has on its menu for gay-marriage day   (motherjones.com) divider line 325
    More: Interesting, California Supreme Court, personnel management, Lambda Legal, domestic partners, Office of Personnel Management, US House of Representatives, California Constitution, same-sex couples  
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10829 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Nov 2012 at 10:41 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-30 11:34:18 PM  
Or maybe some Willie Nelson : )
 
2012-12-01 12:03:42 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: BigBooper: The only question is how long does it take before we wake up and realize that we're living in the modern equivalent of Sodom.

Sodom was not destroyed because of homosexuality.

"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen " Ezekiel 16:49-50


sounds like the problems outlined with the 1%ers...
 
2012-12-01 12:03:50 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: Most people assume that the Sodomites' gang-rape of visiting angels was a homosexual act. But angels aren't men. :-)


This is actually relevant because one passage talks about sexual desire for "strange flesh." More conservative Christians would say that the "strange flesh" is the flesh of men, but there's an argument that it's the bodies of angels.

fracto: That story has always bothered me. My questions are usually 'So your saying God is OK with gang rape as long as it isn't homosexual?' and 'They guy offering up his daughters is a good thing?'

 

It does say something about how God and/or the people of the time saw women and rape.
 
2012-12-01 12:11:58 AM  
I drunk what: so there were no cities that had riches and poor people before or after Sodom?

incendi: The bible is pretty clear that God is a bit of a bastard and not at all consistent in his judgements.


It was a belief at one time that the god of the "Old Testament" and the god of the "New Testament" were completely separate gods at odds with each other. One was essentially the God of Wrath and Vengeance, while the other was the God of Mercy. I'll leave it to you to deduce which was which.

Marcionism
 
2012-12-01 12:27:28 AM  
I drunk what: 1st genetic == innate
2nd choice =/= genetic (false "dichotomy")


Martian_Astronomer: Things that happen during fetal development may not be genetic, but can't be said to be a willful choice on the part of the fetus either. Similarly, many things that a child has zero control over affect the brain development producing permanent biological results.

You can argue for genetic vs. not genetic, or "not a choice" vs. "choice," but genetic and "not a choice" are not equivalent.


There is some evidence, for example, that fraternal birth order affects sexual orientation. That would be an example of a non-genetic cause for being "born this way."

Also, some male-to-female transsexuals have reported that female hormone therapy caused their sexual orientation to shift away from gynephilia towards androphilia (i.e., less sexually attracted towards women and more sexually attracted towards men), which suggests that sexual orientation could be at least partly due to hormone levels --- biochemically determined, but not genetic per se.
 
2012-12-01 12:36:11 AM  

ciberido: I drunk what: so there were no cities that had riches and poor people before or after Sodom?

incendi: The bible is pretty clear that God is a bit of a bastard and not at all consistent in his judgements.

It was a belief at one time that the god of the "Old Testament" and the god of the "New Testament" were completely separate gods at odds with each other. One was essentially the God of Wrath and Vengeance, while the other was the God of Mercy. I'll leave it to you to deduce which was which.

Marcionism


I like the Gnostic beliefs that I read in the book "Jesus and the Lost Goddess". Basically IIRC the whole story of of Jesus is an allegory. Man was born in a cave (it's interesting there was a thread about the pope admitting this Jesus was born in a cave) and and Jesus left the cave after death. In the gnostic idea the cave is the physical world and its ruled by a deity most believe to be god but that god wasn't really the creator of all things. Well it's complex and I've read it a few times.
Anyway, if you're interested. Link
 
2012-12-01 05:31:55 AM  
Marriage is not a religious construct. It existed before your religion, and will exist long after your religion dies out.


If you think the government should "get out of the marriage business" you're either woefully ignorant, or a lying coward. Either way, STFU and GBTW. Gays WILL gain the right to marry in this country, and there's nothing you can do about it in the long run.
 
2012-12-01 09:20:32 AM  

RyogaM: WhereWho does this "morality" you speak of come from?


God

RyogaM: It surely is not the bible or god, or something of that nature.


It shirley does, The Bible is the most accurate account we have of God's Word to Man, (with extra heavy emphasis on the New Testament, if you're claiming to be a Christian) this is where we go to, to learn about what "morality" is

God is the Author-Creator-Judge of Morality

and Nature is simply the systems of existence we live in

RyogaM: You speak of the good lessons of the bible, not lying, and killing and stealing, but the bible is full of tales of god not only allowing murder, rape and theft, but demanding them. And then you have the morality of the bible which claims a man should lie with his dead brother's wife to beget children, or that women should go out of the camp when they are on their period, or that we should stone to death those that work on the sabbath and stone disobedient children and force the raped to marry their rapists.

We reject those immoral parts of the bible, trying to justify it away, saying god didn't really mean to kill people working on Sunday, surely. And no one is supposed to really stone disobedient children, or make women move out to the edge of the city when they are on their period. And all that stuff about murder and rape and killing children, it was all for a good reason and not immoral at all, even if those same acts were done by anyone else.


1st Read the entire Bible in context
2nd Learn the difference between the OT and NT (and who they apply to)
3rd Study, meditate, interpret, learn the differences between:
a. God's Law (10 commandments)
b. Mosaic-Levi "laws" (the jews attempt to make "religion" starting from God's core Law) [the "law" that God ignored-but allowed]
c. The Gospel (NT) = God's completely revealed Law through Jesus our Christ
4th Prophet

RyogaM: So, if the bible, the source of you morality, has to be "interpreted" in this fashion, where does the moral sense come from that causes us to reject the immoral bible?


We reject the JEWISH (only applied to old "law" jews) mosaic-levi laws as a failure of Man's attempt to guide his own footsteps, by accepting The New Law (which clearly repeats God's core Law, btw) and bring Light to this world

We have both history and current Law recorded in our Bibles for background-informational purposes

not to be confused as "everything in the bible" = Christianity

i hope this helps
 
2012-12-01 09:46:45 AM  

RyogaM: If we already have a moral sense outside the bible, a superior sense that shows us clearly and without a doubt the immorality of the lessons of the bible, what need a bible?


highly unlikely, but you probably don't want to see the math...

however this sense you are referring does seem to be some sort of safety mechanism God created us with so that we at least have a sporting chance of knowing what is right (you still don't want to see that math either) unfortunately in the long run, we still need the complete picture (The Bible) to know for sure and to guarantee that we will make the right choices, when it REALLY counts...

RyogaM: Our morality can be grounded on something other than magic sky-fathers and nomadic fairy tales.


Ethics =/= Morality, you are talking about ethics here, and your butthurt towards God and spiritual things probably isn't helping your perception.. might i suggest that you let it go?

RyogaM: And without the fairy tales, the anti-gay sentiment found in the bible can be rejected as immoral as easily the sentiment that says we should stone people who work on Sunday, and that the raped should be forced to marry their rapist.


you are correct, Man is able to rationalize any belief his crooked heart desires, regardless of the source material he derives it from

this^ same conclusion could have also been "interpreted" from reading 'The Cat in the Hat'...

darn that Free Will, an unfortunate side effect of free will is Stupidity (not to be confused with ignorance)

tl;dr this is the tired old argument that ANYone can make the bible say ANYthing they want, all you gotta do is cherry pick some verses (out of context) and turn the herpty derp up to 11 and ... voila, you have "interpretation"

RyogaM: But what, exactly, is our modern morality grounded in?


if it isn't exactly the same Morality as ancient times, then it isn't Morality (objective) it is in fact Ethics (subjective) which is capable of Evolving into a new creature with time

only God can change Morality and if you're suggesting He has changed it, you better be prepared to back up your claims with Mountains of evidence

we're not stupid nor were we born yesterday

RyogaM: Mind your own business, your morality is between you and your god.


False. We (humans) are ALL bound to the same morality, and therefore can judge (not in the final sense) whether or not each other are failing or complying.

Sins done in secret that involves no other person, and likewise the forgiveness of that sin is between you and God.

Sins done publicly (and the forgiveness thereof) that involve other people are between the public, you and God.

Taking Sins to an island where other people share your delusions, does not magically make them ok.

I'm ok, you're not ok
 
2012-12-01 10:05:36 AM  

ciberido: BarkingUnicorn: Most people assume that the Sodomites' gang-rape of visiting angels was a homosexual act. But angels aren't men. :-)

This is actually relevant because one passage talks about sexual desire for "strange flesh." More conservative Christians would say that the "strange flesh" is the flesh of men, but there's an argument that it's the bodies of angels.


because spiritual beings such as God or angels cannot take the form-avatar of a Man? aren't all humans spiritual beings??

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it. ~Hebrews 13:2

rationalization is a helluva drug
 
2012-12-01 10:20:06 AM  

ciberido: There is some evidence, for example, that fraternal birth order affects sexual orientation. That would be an example of a non-genetic cause for being "born this way."


environment is part of the problem, would you like to know more?
 
2012-12-01 12:30:14 PM  
i drunk what: what do you consider to be The Authority?

I consider the authority on homosexuality to be homosexuals. Funny that, but they just seem to know more about it than anyone else.
 
2012-12-01 12:55:26 PM  

I drunk what: ciberido: BarkingUnicorn: Most people assume that the Sodomites' gang-rape of visiting angels was a homosexual act. But angels aren't men. :-)

This is actually relevant because one passage talks about sexual desire for "strange flesh." More conservative Christians would say that the "strange flesh" is the flesh of men, but there's an argument that it's the bodies of angels.

because spiritual beings such as God or angels cannot take the form-avatar of a Man? aren't all humans spiritual beings??

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it. ~Hebrews 13:2

rationalization is a helluva drug


Yeah, I wasn't hoping to be taken seriously with that "not men" gag.

So, the reason to be hospitable is because you don't know if a stranger may be a being who can harm or help you? How about because it makes you feel good?
 
2012-12-01 02:35:19 PM  

eddiesocket: OtherLittleGuy: Serious Black: My guess is SCOTUS will take up DOMA since it's ludicrous to have a federal law be unenforceable in parts of the country but enforceable in others. My guess is also the conservatives are hoping they'll take up California's case so they can declare the states don't have the power to legalize marriage equality.

Here's my take:

Prop 8 is upheld, but is struck down with DOMA.

That doesn't make any sense.


Prop 8: Yes, you can pass an amendment that strikes down a court decision, even by popular referendum.....

DOMA: .... but it doesn't matter here,because the "marriage is one man/one woman" is Federally unconstitutional.
 
2012-12-01 03:31:17 PM  

I drunk what: Peki: My orientation cannot be changed

i disagree

...
what? no Free Will?

i think we can all agree that genetics and environment play a role in the equation, but i'm not seeing anything about choice in this thread, any reason why?

i can guess


Srsly? SRSLY??

Go be gay for a few months. Stop craving intimacy with the opposite sex.

Just do it. I mean it is just a matter of free will right? RIGHT??

/hurrrrdudududururururururuuderpppppppppp
 
2012-12-01 05:27:39 PM  
Hello,

I'm a Ye Olde Time farker that's probably been forgotten in the 4 years since I last posted on these forums. I've been in and out lurking now and again, but never felt the need to post until today. After four years some folks have changed, some have grown more conservative (read crazy), some have become borderline liberals, and then there are people like I drunk what who haven't changed at all.

They're just as ignorant of their religious teachings, philosophies of the world, and worst of all continue to misrepresent what is discovered by the sciences to justify their horrifically bigoted and ignorant world view. Their kind of thought, the sort that sees full adherence to a self-contradictory and wholy arbitrary collection of books written by people whose knowledge of the world barely extended past "fire is hot" and "pointy things make you bleed" as being either literal truth or the only true way to understand the world, is what is used to justify some of the most egregious abuses of humans if not in the US, then in places where protection for those that need it most is unheard of because they're dehumanised in the face of religious extremism.

More succinctly? I drunk what is still a hatemongering choad that would rather spit lies (remember that thing about not baring false witness? You're failing at it) and religious dogma than try to learn that the world has advanced its understanding of things from the days where women were put outside like a dog that had pissed the carpet because their cycle had started.
 
2012-12-01 06:01:18 PM  

Serious Post on Serious Thread: I drunk what: Peki: My orientation cannot be changed

i disagree

...
what? no Free Will?

i think we can all agree that genetics and environment play a role in the equation, but i'm not seeing anything about choice in this thread, any reason why?

i can guess

Srsly? SRSLY??

Go be gay for a few months. Stop craving intimacy with the opposite sex.

Just do it. I mean it is just a matter of free will right? RIGHT??

/hurrrrdudududururururururuuderpppppppppp


That's why I didn't bother responding. That right there told us everything we need to know about IDW's P.O.V.

IDW thinks he can tell gay people what it's like to be gay, and that they can just "choose" differently.

No one chooses this, you dumbfark. If I could be normal, I would give my right arm to be. I can't. So why do *I* have to change? Why can't you just farking accept me for who I am?
 
2012-12-01 06:04:48 PM  
According to IDW, all of us are reading the Bible wrong when we point out the contradictions, inconsistencies, and parts where God tells his followers to kill unbelievers, shellfish eaters, menstruating women who don't leave the city, people who wear mixed fabrics, and disobedient children, as well as the many times God has committed mass murder and cleansing.

Which fits right in with how he redefines everything to continue arguing and trolling.
 
2012-12-01 06:10:09 PM  

Peki: That's why I didn't bother responding. That right there told us everything we need to know about IDW's P.O.V.

IDW thinks he can tell gay people what it's like to be gay, and that they can just "choose" differently.

No one chooses this, you dumbfark. If I could be normal, I would give my right arm to be. I can't. So why do *I* have to change? Why can't you just farking accept me for who I am?


Because God, the most loving being ever, who created existence out of love, absolutely hates that you're not exactly how he wants you to be and you're going to be subjected to unspeakable torture for all eternity because you listened to demons and used your free will to choose to love those of your gender. It's much easier and simpler than just waving his hand and fixing what he originally screwed up in the first place (seriously, you or I know better than to leave something you don't want others getting into where they can get to it, and to keep an eye out for those who would try to screw things up).

And IDW doesn't give a damn about anything he's saying anyway, this is how he trolls. Nothing you saw will change his mind or see you in a different way, he'll twist what you say and redefine things yet again to continue his trolling.
 
2012-12-01 09:30:03 PM  

Murkanen: and then there are people like I drunk what who haven't changed at all


this is one of the greatest compliments i have received in a long time

thank you

/peace be with you

Peki: Why can't you just farking accept me for who I am?


24.media.tumblr.com

Keizer_Ghidorah: And IDW doesn't give a damn about anything he's saying anyway


this is not true, you haven't already lost, i do care
 
2012-12-01 11:15:42 PM  

I drunk what: this is one of the greatest compliments i have received in a long time


Not being willing to change your positions despite being demonstratably proven that you're incorrect time and time again is a bad thing.

That you take it as a compliment just better supports the rest of what was written about you.
 
2012-12-02 12:26:56 AM  

BarkingUnicorn: I drunk what: ciberido: BarkingUnicorn: Most people assume that the Sodomites' gang-rape of visiting angels was a homosexual act. But angels aren't men. :-)

This is actually relevant because one passage talks about sexual desire for "strange flesh." More conservative Christians would say that the "strange flesh" is the flesh of men, but there's an argument that it's the bodies of angels.

because spiritual beings such as God or angels cannot take the form-avatar of a Man? aren't all humans spiritual beings??

Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by this some have entertained angels without knowing it. ~Hebrews 13:2

rationalization is a helluva drug

Yeah, I wasn't hoping to be taken seriously with that "not men" gag.

So, the reason to be hospitable is because you don't know if a stranger may be a being who can harm or help you? How about because it makes you feel good?


If you want to have fun with this, let's start talking about giants.

Numbers 13:31
Deuteronomy 2:10-11, 2:21, and 3:11
 
2012-12-02 02:05:40 PM  

Murkanen: Not being willing to change your positions despite being demonstratably proven that you're incorrect time and time again is a bad thing.


name one thing i am incorrect about

ciberido: If you want to have fun with this, let's start talking about giants.


don't be silly, everyone knows they are just a myth

www.maniacworld.com
2.bp.blogspot.com
www.asianoffbeat.com

next thing you know, you'll be telling us that dwarves are real, that live in a magical place called munchkin land

keep your fairytales to yourself nobody cares
 
2012-12-03 08:49:17 AM  

Keizer_Ghidorah: If it's a "lifestyle choice", perhaps you could prove it by choosing to be homosexual for a month, including acting, thinking, and behaving like one.


perhaps you could try incest for month, including acting, thinking and behaving like one.

Peki: IDW thinks he can tell gay people what it's like to be gay, and that they can just "choose" differently.


perhaps Peki could try being a pedophile for a month, including acting, thinking and behaving like one.

instead of telling pedophiles what it's like to be a pedophile, and that hey can just "choose" differently.

BarkingUnicorn: How about because it makes you feel good?


should we base our lifestyle choices on what makes us feel good?

BarkingUnicorn: So, the reason to be hospitable is because you don't know if a stranger may be a being who can harm or help you?


i suppose, if you're a fan of a 'pascal's wager' style of "moral" standards..

have you learned nothing from Santa Claus?

how about being Good for Godness sake...?

/He knows if you've been Bad or Good
 
2012-12-03 11:29:42 AM  

Martian_Astronomer: Well, for starters, lennavan's link did mention that there was some genetic correlation (though I'm not sure how they're separating out genetics and prenatal development in that study,)


You compare fraternal versus identical twins. In a nutshell, you say if genetics plays zero role, it should not matter whether your twin is fraternal or identical. If it does matter, that means genetics plays a role.

So prenatal development would be considered an environment factor. The study does not address, nor attempt to address, what it is about the environment that plays a role and when.
 
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