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(Talking Points Memo)   Jon Stewart sums up the fiscal cliff quite nicely: "There's an asteroid headed towards the Earth. We made it and fired it at ourselves"   (tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com) divider line 123
    More: Amusing, Earth  
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2479 clicks; posted to Politics » on 30 Nov 2012 at 10:15 AM (2 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-30 09:35:39 AM  
deadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-11-30 09:36:25 AM  
Oblig:

o.aolcdn.com
 
2012-11-30 09:40:57 AM  
Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics
 
2012-11-30 09:44:54 AM  

zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics


I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.
 
2012-11-30 09:45:59 AM  
My recommendation for everyone with a portfolio is to sell all long term holdings that have decent gains, wait for the market to start tanking and buy in when everyone else is selling off.

This is getting predictable. Politicians stonewall until the market starts to tank, then come to an agreement and the market recovers. It's a good opportunity to make money off a crap situation.
 
2012-11-30 09:54:31 AM  
He made a good point.

He was spot on in pointing out the bullshiat.

Too bad this will fall on deaf ears more focused on the blame-game over, you know, actually fixing the problem
 
2012-11-30 09:54:56 AM  

Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.


Republicans seem to think if they waver or show cracks they will die, so they put up a united front. The more moderate Republicans getting eaten by Tea Partiers does give them reason to fear that. However, I think the tea party is now almost irrelevant, if it wasn't for gerrymandering the Republicans would have been devastated in this past election. They need to stop and listen to the public before because they are becoming a corporatist party, and even if corporations are people they cannot cast ballots yet
 
2012-11-30 09:57:49 AM  

Otherwise Just Fine: This is getting predictable. Politicians stonewall until the market starts to tank, then come to an agreement and the market recovers. It's a good opportunity to make money off a crap situation.


Retail is scared this will kill this holiday season, that should keep some pressure on to solve this fast. Plus you have the defense establishment not wanting to get hit with the cuts. I have a feeling there will be more outside pressure on the GOP then on the Dems to solve this.
 
2012-11-30 10:16:29 AM  

cman: Too bad this will fall on deaf ears more focused on the blame-game over, you know, actually fixing the problem


It's the Republicans who play the blame game.
 
2012-11-30 10:19:24 AM  

Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.


Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?
 
2012-11-30 10:19:45 AM  
"There's an asteroid headed towards the Earth. We made it and fired it at ourselves"

And the congressional republicans response to the crisis is to blame Obama from not stopping them from getting 98% of what they wanted.
 
2012-11-30 10:20:16 AM  
The GOP is split right now between those who would compromise and try to get what they can, while they can, and those that see compromise as a weakness that the Democrats will pounce upon and use to rip them to shreds.

And, like it or not, whether we go 'over the cliff' is entirely dependent on which group of GOP win out in their internal war.
 
2012-11-30 10:22:15 AM  

Otherwise Just Fine: My recommendation for everyone with a portfolio is to sell all long term holdings that have decent gains, wait for the market to start tanking and buy in when everyone else is selling off.

This is getting predictable. Politicians stonewall until the market starts to tank, then come to an agreement and the market recovers. It's a good opportunity to make money off a crap situation.


Unless they reach a reasonable deal, in which case you miss the ride as things go up.

Market timing is usually a fools errand.
 
2012-11-30 10:23:23 AM  

zedster: the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics


If the seniors around here (Central Florida, lotta transplants) are any indication, they're mainly interested in health care and the long term budget situation. Both of these are threatened by the Republican's "Cut everything. No taxes. Yada. Yada. Quack. Quack"
 
2012-11-30 10:23:34 AM  

zedster: Otherwise Just Fine: This is getting predictable. Politicians stonewall until the market starts to tank, then come to an agreement and the market recovers. It's a good opportunity to make money off a crap situation.

Retail is scared this will kill this holiday season, that should keep some pressure on to solve this fast. Plus you have the defense establishment not wanting to get hit with the cuts. I have a feeling there will be more outside pressure on the GOP then on the Dems to solve this.


And while I was hearing rumors yesterday that Obama may make concessions on taxes, I heard Carney say this morning "The president will not sign another extension of the Bush rates."

This may be the first time in my life that the Dems show a spine this rigid. I imagine we may not get the top TWO bracket rates rolled back, but getting the top one undone is a big step. I'm also eager to see what deductions fall by the wayside.

I also caught an interesting fact on WTOP yesterday evening - apparently, the US is one of the only first-world countries (if not the only one) that still has a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, it'd suck if we got rid of it, especially for new homeowners, but it appears that the rest of the developed world does just fine.
 
2012-11-30 10:24:00 AM  

Karac: "There's an asteroid headed towards the Earth. We made it and fired it at ourselves"

And the congressional republicans response to the crisis is to blame Obama from not stopping them from getting 98% of what they wanted.


More like 100%. They got some GREAT deals offered to them when we went through this shiat last summer, and they totally rejected it. These clowns think "negotiate" means "give us everything we want right now or we'll scream." They need to do their damn jobs and do some actual work for once.
 
2012-11-30 10:24:10 AM  

Giltric: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?


Since we're asking rhetorical questions, who the hell do you think purchases all of the things that drive demand, and therefore, create jobs? The rich, who want for nothing? Or the poor and middle classes, who stretch every dollar to live?
 
2012-11-30 10:24:32 AM  

Infernalist: The GOP is split right now between those who would compromise and try to get what they can, while they can, and those that see compromise as a weakness that the Democrats will pounce upon and use to rip them to shreds.

And, like it or not, whether we go 'over the cliff' is entirely dependent on which group of GOP win out in their internal war.


I agree. The portion of the GOP that has simply folded it's arms and said "We want out way or we will continue to block this" will cause far more damage to the GOP than to the administration. I guess they are not serious about winning in 2014 / 2016 either.

Now would be the time for the GOP to rediscover "part unity" and focus on getting it done INCLUDING COMPROMISES "

/Or they can double down on the derp like they keep doing
 
2012-11-30 10:25:26 AM  
BTW, not necessarily directed at you, Giltric, just anyone who might genuinely be thinking like that.

//should've accounted properly for snark
 
2012-11-30 10:25:45 AM  

zedster: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Republicans seem to think if they waver or show cracks they will die, so they put up a united front. The more moderate Republicans getting eaten by Tea Partiers does give them reason to fear that. However, I think the tea party is now almost irrelevant, if it wasn't for gerrymandering the Republicans would have been devastated in this past election. They need to stop and listen to the public before because they are becoming a corporatist party, and even if corporations are people they cannot cast ballots yet


According to a cnn poll 70% of americans want big cuts to spending while only 50% want higher taxes..... 51 is greater than 47 for obama and romney in the election but why is the 70% that want cuts being ignored.
 
2012-11-30 10:25:54 AM  
Or time to go short. I mean, while you're throwing money away investing in someone that's not you, why not go whole hog?
 
2012-11-30 10:27:37 AM  

Giltric: zedster: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Republicans seem to think if they waver or show cracks they will die, so they put up a united front. The more moderate Republicans getting eaten by Tea Partiers does give them reason to fear that. However, I think the tea party is now almost irrelevant, if it wasn't for gerrymandering the Republicans would have been devastated in this past election. They need to stop and listen to the public before because they are becoming a corporatist party, and even if corporations are people they cannot cast ballots yet

According to a cnn poll 70% of americans want big cuts to spending while only 50% want higher taxes..... 51 is greater than 47 for obama and romney in the election but why is the 70% that want cuts being ignored.


400 billion in cuts are already on the table. You knew that, right?

The Spending Cuts Are Already On The Table. The Only Thing Left To Be Decided Are Tax Rates and Increases.
 
2012-11-30 10:28:59 AM  

zedster: Republicans seem to think if they waver or show cracks they will die, so they put up a united front.


Voting in lockstep has served them well in the past. But when there's mutterings about how their Norquist pledge is "no longer applicable today" or hunts for new revenue that aren't technically "new taxes" if one squints hard enough, it seems they know they're in a bad spot this time and are searching for a way out.
 
2012-11-30 10:29:09 AM  
this is 100 percent the fault of the republicans. one. hundred. percent.

if they would have simply passed the debt ceiling raise - as they have dozens of times before - there would be no "fiscal cliff." the debt ceiling raise simply authorizes congress to pay for spending it has already passed. it is what's known as a "pro forma" vote - a formality. or so it was up until last year, when republicans decided to hold the nation hostage by threatening not to pay our bills. and what did we get for their farking childish petulance? a credit downgrade, a market drop, and the fiscal farking cliff.

fark the republicans. fark all of them. they OWN this.
 
2012-11-30 10:29:47 AM  

Giltric: why is the 70% that want cuts being ignored.


They're not. Got any more stupid questions?
 
2012-11-30 10:29:57 AM  

un4gvn666: Giltric: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

Since we're asking rhetorical questions, who the hell do you think purchases all of the things that drive demand, and therefore, create jobs? The rich, who want for nothing? Or the poor and middle classes, who stretch every dollar to live?


I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving..... Whens the last time a poor person did that....

Keep pretending the wealthy dont spend a dime though.
 
2012-11-30 10:30:37 AM  

SpectroBoy: Infernalist: The GOP is split right now between those who would compromise and try to get what they can, while they can, and those that see compromise as a weakness that the Democrats will pounce upon and use to rip them to shreds.

And, like it or not, whether we go 'over the cliff' is entirely dependent on which group of GOP win out in their internal war.

I agree. The portion of the GOP that has simply folded it's arms and said "We want out way or we will continue to block this" will cause far more damage to the GOP than to the administration. I guess they are not serious about winning in 2014 / 2016 either.

Now would be the time for the GOP to rediscover "part unity" and focus on getting it done INCLUDING COMPROMISES "

/Or they can double down on the derp like they keep doing


That's what I find hilarious. For a group so ideologically in lock step, the GOP can't actually make any of the members that constitute it actually DO anything.
 
2012-11-30 10:30:41 AM  

Giltric: According to a cnn poll 70% of americans want big cuts to spending while only 50% want higher taxes


Which poll?
 
2012-11-30 10:31:30 AM  
A child will destroy a toy rather than share it with a sibling......Party Above Country.
 
2012-11-30 10:32:23 AM  

Giltric: You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?


Why do you hate entrepreneurs and small business owners?
 
2012-11-30 10:32:25 AM  
Dr Dreidel:>
I also caught an interesting fact on WTOP yesterday evening - apparently, the US is one of the only first-world countries (if not the only one) that still has a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, it'd suck if we got rid of it, especially for new homeowners, but it appears that the rest of the developed world does just fine.


The M.I. deduction saves me a grand or two in taxes each year. I would hate to see it go, but if it's going to substantially improve the economy and our fiscal future I can accept it.

What I can't accept is discussion of it this late in the tax season. If this is going to happen, it needs to be announced before April 16th for the following tax year.

If you're going to pull the rug out from a lot of middle-class folks on this, they need time to prepare accordingly.
 
2012-11-30 10:32:32 AM  

Infernalist: The GOP is split right now between those who would compromise and try to get what they can, while they can, and those that see compromise as a weakness that the Democrats will pounce upon and use to rip them to shreds.

And, like it or not, whether we go 'over the cliff' is entirely dependent on which group of GOP win out in their internal war.


This is the eternal problem with two party politics.
The Democrats are huge pussies that would never pounce upon such a great opportunity,
and the Republicans are too stupid to realise that.
 
2012-11-30 10:33:04 AM  

Giltric: I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving..... Whens the last time a poor person did that....

Keep pretending the wealthy dont spend a dime though.


Oh bless your heart.
 
2012-11-30 10:33:09 AM  

Giltric: un4gvn666: Giltric: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

Since we're asking rhetorical questions, who the hell do you think purchases all of the things that drive demand, and therefore, create jobs? The rich, who want for nothing? Or the poor and middle classes, who stretch every dollar to live?

I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving..... Whens the last time a poor person did that....

Keep pretending the wealthy dont spend a dime though.


Wow, you spent 100k, you must think you're rich or something.

hint: you're not.

lol
 
2012-11-30 10:33:45 AM  

Infernalist: Giltric: zedster: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Republicans seem to think if they waver or show cracks they will die, so they put up a united front. The more moderate Republicans getting eaten by Tea Partiers does give them reason to fear that. However, I think the tea party is now almost irrelevant, if it wasn't for gerrymandering the Republicans would have been devastated in this past election. They need to stop and listen to the public before because they are becoming a corporatist party, and even if corporations are people they cannot cast ballots yet

According to a cnn poll 70% of americans want big cuts to spending while only 50% want higher taxes..... 51 is greater than 47 for obama and romney in the election but why is the 70% that want cuts being ignored.

400 billion in cuts are already on the table. You knew that, right?

The Spending Cuts Are Already On The Table. The Only Thing Left To Be Decided Are Tax Rates and Increases.


400 billion over 10 years is not enough...
 
2012-11-30 10:34:54 AM  

SpectroBoy: Otherwise Just Fine: My recommendation for everyone with a portfolio is to sell all long term holdings that have decent gains, wait for the market to start tanking and buy in when everyone else is selling off.

This is getting predictable. Politicians stonewall until the market starts to tank, then come to an agreement and the market recovers. It's a good opportunity to make money off a crap situation.

Unless they reach a reasonable deal, in which case you miss the ride as things go up.

Market timing is usually a fools errand.


Usually, yes. Speculation is bad, investing based on value is good. But do you really think the GOP will cut a deal before the markets force them to?
 
2012-11-30 10:35:25 AM  

Giltric: 400 billion over 10 years is not enough...


Then the Republicans should suggest some more instead of whining that the Democrats don't do it for them.
 
2012-11-30 10:35:51 AM  
It's easy to say "we really need to cut Defense", but when the plan to do so comes along suddenly it's a "fiscal cliff!!111!" and has to be avoided at all costs. We absolutely need the Bush Tax Cuts to expire, and we absolutely need Defense to be cut. I'm willing to pay slightly higher taxes to make that happen.

I say bring on the fiscal cliff.
 
2012-11-30 10:36:01 AM  
The correct solution to the problem is a combination of defense spending cuts, moderate entitlement reform for longterm medicare and SS viability, and the removal of "temporary" spending cuts.

Only one party has been proposing the correct solution. The other party is whining about job creators, class warfare, socialism, and the destruction of America.

When one party is suggesting steak for dinner and the other party is suggesting dog crap in a bowl, the solution is not shiat covered hamburgers.
 
2012-11-30 10:37:10 AM  

Giltric: Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.
You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?


Does it make your eye twitch when you say something so idiotic that first year college students taking macro economics would laugh at you
 
2012-11-30 10:37:29 AM  

Giltric: Infernalist:According to a cnn poll 70% of americans want big cuts to spending while only 50% want higher taxes..... 51 is greater than 47 for obama and romney in the election but why is the 70% that want cuts being ignored.

400 billion in cuts are already on the table. You knew that, right?

The Spending Cuts Are Already On The Table. The Only Thing Left To Be Decided Are Tax Rates and Increases.

400 billion over 10 years is not enough...


atlumschema.com
 
2012-11-30 10:37:37 AM  

DRFS Rich:
If you're going to pull the rug out from a lot of middle-class folks on this, they need time to prepare accordingly.


As I understand it, all this fiscal cliff discussion pertains to next year, so the taxes you would pay in April of 2014.
 
2012-11-30 10:39:07 AM  

Giltric: Infernalist: Giltric: zedster: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Republicans seem to think if they waver or show cracks they will die, so they put up a united front. The more moderate Republicans getting eaten by Tea Partiers does give them reason to fear that. However, I think the tea party is now almost irrelevant, if it wasn't for gerrymandering the Republicans would have been devastated in this past election. They need to stop and listen to the public before because they are becoming a corporatist party, and even if corporations are people they cannot cast ballots yet

According to a cnn poll 70% of americans want big cuts to spending while only 50% want higher taxes..... 51 is greater than 47 for obama and romney in the election but why is the 70% that want cuts being ignored.

400 billion in cuts are already on the table. You knew that, right?

The Spending Cuts Are Already On The Table. The Only Thing Left To Be Decided Are Tax Rates and Increases.

400 billion over 10 years is not enough...


Then, let's bargain, fool. You think 400B is too little. Well, let's see an alternative offer.

The problem lies in the fact that the GOP isn't at the bargaining table at all. If they sat down and started hashing things out, they may find that 400B can go up...if they compromise with some tax rate changes and increases.

But that's the problem. They're not into bargaining and 'that' is going to be the death of them.
 
2012-11-30 10:39:15 AM  

Dr Dreidel: I also caught an interesting fact on WTOP yesterday evening - apparently, the US is one of the only first-world countries (if not the only one) that still has a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, it'd suck if we got rid of it, especially for new homeowners, but it appears that the rest of the developed world does just fine.


The rest of the developed world also gets by fine on nationalized healthcare, mandatory minimum vacation and paid maternity leave.
 
2012-11-30 10:39:56 AM  

DRFS Rich: Dr Dreidel:>
I also caught an interesting fact on WTOP yesterday evening - apparently, the US is one of the only first-world countries (if not the only one) that still has a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, it'd suck if we got rid of it, especially for new homeowners, but it appears that the rest of the developed world does just fine.

The M.I. deduction saves me a grand or two in taxes each year. I would hate to see it go, but if it's going to substantially improve the economy and our fiscal future I can accept it.

What I can't accept is discussion of it this late in the tax season. If this is going to happen, it needs to be announced before April 16th for the following tax year.

If you're going to pull the rug out from a lot of middle-class folks on this, they need time to prepare accordingly.


I think that if they do it, it'll be phased out over a fairly long timespan, something like five or ten years, so as to avoid exactly the kind of problem you describe.

Though, honestly, I don't think it'll happen; the mortgage interest deduction is too helpful to too many people.
 
2012-11-30 10:40:11 AM  

zedster: Otherwise Just Fine: This is getting predictable. Politicians stonewall until the market starts to tank, then come to an agreement and the market recovers. It's a good opportunity to make money off a crap situation.

Retail is scared this will kill this holiday season, that should keep some pressure on to solve this fast. Plus you have the defense establishment not wanting to get hit with the cuts. I have a feeling there will be more outside pressure on the GOP then on the Dems to solve this.


The GOP is already hyperventilating about the defense cuts. The defense contractors are not amused.
 
2012-11-30 10:40:53 AM  

bulldg4life: Giltric: Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.
You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

Does it make your eye twitch when you say something so idiotic that first year college students taking macro economics would laugh at you


Did those 1st year maceoeconomics students eventually buy a house they could afford based on potential raises they might recieve over the course of employment while holding the note?
 
2012-11-30 10:40:55 AM  
Why is everyone freaking out about the spending cuts? From what I understand, it's 8% across the board. Isn't it a rule of thumb that any organization can be trimmed by up to 10% without losing effectiveness? Just let 'em be cut.
 
MFK
2012-11-30 10:41:44 AM  
it's foolish to base whether or not to raise taxes on public opinion polls because NOBODY likes paying taxes. You should raise taxes if and only if you actually need to. we should've raised them 10 years ago when we started going to war but nooooooo.
 
2012-11-30 10:41:49 AM  

Giltric: Did those 1st year maceoeconomics students eventually buy a house they could afford based on potential raises they might recieve over the course of employment while holding the note?


POOR PEOPLE BOUGHT HOUSES!
 
2012-11-30 10:42:16 AM  
If you want to go with the analogy of an asteroid, we built a 100 meter long asteroid and shot it at ourself to hit in 2013 while a 10 mile asteroid will hit us in 2035. If we can't deal with the small asteroid we created then were boned over the larger one.

If we don't deal with it now then one day we'll we'll be forced like Greece. Its not about today's finances. Its about the unsustainability of the federal budget.
 
2012-11-30 10:42:17 AM  
There should be a tax on whining about tax rates. If the rich guys had to pay a dollar for every time they biatched about their taxes, our budget would have a gigantic surplus, and in the future, we'd never have to hear them biatch again.

I can only dream...
 
2012-11-30 10:43:41 AM  

MFK: we should've raised them 10 years ago when we started going to war but nooooooo.


Swee'babyjeezus this.
 
2012-11-30 10:43:55 AM  

thurstonxhowell: Giltric: 400 billion over 10 years is not enough...

Then the Republicans should suggest some more instead of whining that the Democrats don't do it for them.


Sort of like how the democrats version of presenting a budget is seeing what the republicans come up with and criticizing it without presenting one of their own?
 
2012-11-30 10:44:25 AM  

SirGeorgeBurkelwitzIII: There should be a tax on whining about tax rates. If the rich guys had to pay a dollar for every time they biatched about their taxes, our budget would have a gigantic surplus, and in the future, we'd never have to hear them biatch again.


That sounds like it would be a very effective feedback loop..
 
2012-11-30 10:44:30 AM  

Giltric: I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving..... Whens the last time a poor person did that....

Keep pretending the wealthy dont spend a dime though.


That was an impressive straw man you built in such a short time.

Please quote the part of my post where I said the rich don't spend a dime though.

What I actually said was:

un4gvn666: who the hell do you think purchases all of the things that drive demand, and therefore, create jobs?


The rich may spend money, but they aren't the primary drivers of demand.
 
2012-11-30 10:45:05 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: It's easy to say "we really need to cut Defense", but when the plan to do so comes along suddenly it's a "fiscal cliff!!111!" and has to be avoided at all costs. We absolutely need the Bush Tax Cuts to expire, and we absolutely need Defense to be cut. I'm willing to pay slightly higher taxes to make that happen.


Uh, no. Obama directed the Pentagon to prepare a plan in which their budget would remain fixed for at least five years by cutting programs and waste internally BEFORE the debt ceiling bullshiat started. Conceding to let some cuts become part of the "nuclear option" was the Republicans' way of trying to assure no cuts happened.
 
2012-11-30 10:46:07 AM  

Mrbogey: If you want to go with the analogy of an asteroid, we built a 100 meter long asteroid and shot it at ourself to hit in 2013 while a 10 mile asteroid will hit us in 2035. If we can't deal with the small asteroid we created then were boned over the larger one.

If we don't deal with it now then one day we'll we'll be forced like Greece. Its not about today's finances. Its about the unsustainability of the federal budget.


Why deal with something today that we can put off to tomorrow?
 
2012-11-30 10:47:16 AM  

bulldg4life: Giltric: Did those 1st year maceoeconomics students eventually buy a house they could afford based on potential raises they might recieve over the course of employment while holding the note?

POOR PEOPLE BOUGHT HOUSES!


With REFRIGERATORS in them!
 
2012-11-30 10:47:18 AM  

un4gvn666: Giltric: I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving..... Whens the last time a poor person did that....

Keep pretending the wealthy dont spend a dime though.

That was an impressive straw man you built in such a short time.

Please quote the part of my post where I said the rich don't spend a dime though.

What I actually said was: un4gvn666: who the hell do you think purchases all of the things that drive demand, and therefore, create jobs?

The rich may spend money, but they aren't the primary drivers of demand.


certain industries, they do
 
2012-11-30 10:47:21 AM  

Giltric: thurstonxhowell: Giltric: 400 billion over 10 years is not enough...

Then the Republicans should suggest some more instead of whining that the Democrats don't do it for them.

Sort of like how the democrats version of presenting a budget is seeing what the republicans come up with and criticizing it without presenting one of their own?


You sure got me. You're right. The Republicans should just keep yelling at the Democrats for not bargaining against themselves. Good point.
 
2012-11-30 10:47:59 AM  

un4gvn666: Giltric: I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving..... Whens the last time a poor person did that....

Keep pretending the wealthy dont spend a dime though.

That was an impressive straw man you built in such a short time.

Please quote the part of my post where I said the rich don't spend a dime though.

What I actually said was: un4gvn666: who the hell do you think purchases all of the things that drive demand, and therefore, create jobs?

The rich may spend money, but they aren't the primary drivers of demand.


If every rich person spent 2x as much as every poor person, the poors would outspend the rich by about 3-5x.

// WE SURROUND THEM
 
2012-11-30 10:49:52 AM  

thurstonxhowell: Giltric: thurstonxhowell: Giltric: 400 billion over 10 years is not enough...

Then the Republicans should suggest some more instead of whining that the Democrats don't do it for them.

Sort of like how the democrats version of presenting a budget is seeing what the republicans come up with and criticizing it without presenting one of their own?

You sure got me. You're right. The Republicans should just keep yelling at the Democrats for not bargaining against themselves. Good point.


But you are upset the republicans arent bargaining against themselves.......that sounds like nuanced concern.
 
2012-11-30 10:52:43 AM  
If FISCAL CLIFF!1! wasn't splashed all over the news potato hours a day, would this be an actual crisis?
 
2012-11-30 10:53:53 AM  

Dr Dreidel:
I also caught an interesting fact on WTOP yesterday evening - apparently, the US is one of the only first-world countries (if not the only one) that still has a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, it'd suck if we got rid of it, especially for new homeowners, but it appears that the rest of the developed world does just fine.


The worst thing about the mortgage deduction is that it doesnt even make homes more affordable, as people factor it in to their budget when deciding which home to buy. For a given level of demand it just raises house prices. It's essentially a taxpayer funded giveaway to realtors and banks.

But if we go cold turkey we'll almost certainly see another foreclosure crisis due to anyone who bought a house in the last ~10 years being hit with much higher taxes coupled with the reduction in home equity due directly to the subsidy cuts. It needs to go, but it needs to be phased out.
 
2012-11-30 10:53:56 AM  

Giltric: thurstonxhowell: Giltric: thurstonxhowell: Giltric: 400 billion over 10 years is not enough...

Then the Republicans should suggest some more instead of whining that the Democrats don't do it for them.

Sort of like how the democrats version of presenting a budget is seeing what the republicans come up with and criticizing it without presenting one of their own?

You sure got me. You're right. The Republicans should just keep yelling at the Democrats for not bargaining against themselves. Good point.

But you are upset the republicans arent bargaining against themselves.......that sounds like nuanced concern.


How would proposing spending cuts be bargaining against themselves? Are Republicans against those? Remember, that's what I think should be done here. Democrats come to the table with an offer full of things they like, Republicans come to the table with an offer full of things they like, and a compromise is reached. You know... bargaining.
 
2012-11-30 10:56:58 AM  

qorkfiend:
I think that if they do it, it'll be phased out over a fairly long timespan, something like five or ten years, so as to avoid exactly the kind of problem you describe.

Though, honestly, I don't think it'll happen; the mortgage interest deduction is too helpful to too many people.


First thing we should phase out - mortgage deduction for any property other than your primary residence. That won't affect the middle class.
 
2012-11-30 10:57:40 AM  

qorkfiend: DRFS Rich: Dr Dreidel:>
I also caught an interesting fact on WTOP yesterday evening - apparently, the US is one of the only first-world countries (if not the only one) that still has a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, it'd suck if we got rid of it, especially for new homeowners, but it appears that the rest of the developed world does just fine.

The M.I. deduction saves me a grand or two in taxes each year. I would hate to see it go, but if it's going to substantially improve the economy and our fiscal future I can accept it.

What I can't accept is discussion of it this late in the tax season. If this is going to happen, it needs to be announced before April 16th for the following tax year.

If you're going to pull the rug out from a lot of middle-class folks on this, they need time to prepare accordingly.

I think that if they do it, it'll be phased out over a fairly long timespan, something like five or ten years, so as to avoid exactly the kind of problem you describe.

Though, honestly, I don't think it'll happen; the mortgage interest deduction is too helpful to too many people.


And getting rid of it would crash a housing market that's only now starting to recover.
 
2012-11-30 10:59:31 AM  

FlashHarry: this is 100 percent the fault of the republicans. one. hundred. percent.


In fairness to Bohner, he owned up to 98% of that responsibility immediately.
 
2012-11-30 11:01:03 AM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: un4gvn666: Giltric: I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving..... Whens the last time a poor person did that....

Keep pretending the wealthy dont spend a dime though.

That was an impressive straw man you built in such a short time.

Please quote the part of my post where I said the rich don't spend a dime though.

What I actually said was: un4gvn666: who the hell do you think purchases all of the things that drive demand, and therefore, create jobs?

The rich may spend money, but they aren't the primary drivers of demand.

certain industries, they do


Keep moving those goalposts. Just a little further. You've almost got it.
 
2012-11-30 11:06:18 AM  

incendi: MFK: we should've raised them 10 years ago when we started going to war but nooooooo.

Swee'babyjeezus this.


Bush sure was an innovator. The only leader in history to go war on completely on credit.

But, it's the libs who are irresponsible spendthrifts.
 
2012-11-30 11:06:28 AM  

cman: He made a good point.

He was spot on in pointing out the bullshiat.

Too bad this will fall on deaf ears more focused on the blame-game over, you know, actually fixing the problem


To fix the problem, the people who are to blame need to, you know, stop being to blame.

But naw, BSABSVR.
 
2012-11-30 11:07:23 AM  

LouDobbsAwaaaay: It's easy to say "we really need to cut Defense", but when the plan to do so comes along suddenly it's a "fiscal cliff!!111!" and has to be avoided at all costs. We absolutely need the Bush Tax Cuts to expire, and we absolutely need Defense to be cut. I'm willing to pay slightly higher taxes to make that happen.

I say bring on the fiscal cliff.


Gotta raise the AMT, or it'll nail people making $200K-$500k a lot more than the tax raise would.
Also, it would be nice to keep Pell Grants going*.

Everything else we can handle.

*Not sure why this would eliminate Pell Grants. It's just insurance for loans that are far harder to get rid of than standard loans. You'd think that wouldn't cost much.
 
2012-11-30 11:13:41 AM  

bulldg4life: Giltric: Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.
You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

Does it make your eye twitch when you say something so idiotic that first year college students taking macro economics would laugh at you


To me there is a false assumption that the solution lies somewhere between the DNC and GOP positions. The assumption that a balanced budget leads to a strong economy. It is a strong economy that causes a balanced budget. You build a strong economy by investing it in.

The US should spend a minimum of $2T in pure education and infrastructure spending over the next 10 years combine with gradual taxes increases to pre-Reagan era tax rates. This type of approach would balance the budget faster than anything being discussed today.
 
2012-11-30 11:14:13 AM  

ghare: cman: He made a good point.

He was spot on in pointing out the bullshiat.

Too bad this will fall on deaf ears more focused on the blame-game over, you know, actually fixing the problem

To fix the problem, the people who are to blame need to, you know, stop being to blame.

But naw, BSABSVR.


When even John Stewart of all people calls his own side on their bullshiat, even you have got to agree that he may have a point. But go ahead, keep preaching BSABSVR.

We need to stop acting like children and act like adults. I am saying this to everyone. fark the blame game, that shiat wont get us anywhere. We need to be more diplomatic and far less aggressive.
 
2012-11-30 11:16:15 AM  
Let the cliff come and go.

Use the surplus to hire people & keep unemployment low. Government workers buy as much consumer crap as anyone else, should be enough to keep the economy from tanking. None of those "contractors" either. When you hire a contractor, half the money goes to the company doing the work in pure profits. No help to the economy at all. I'm talking about full-time permanent government employees. Knowing they will still have a job in the future means they will feel even more free to spend and keep the economy humming along.

/yes, I'm serious
 
2012-11-30 11:17:03 AM  

Giltric: thurstonxhowell: Giltric: thurstonxhowell: Giltric: 400 billion over 10 years is not enough...

Then the Republicans should suggest some more instead of whining that the Democrats don't do it for them.

Sort of like how the democrats version of presenting a budget is seeing what the republicans come up with and criticizing it without presenting one of their own?

You sure got me. You're right. The Republicans should just keep yelling at the Democrats for not bargaining against themselves. Good point.

But you are upset the republicans arent bargaining against themselves.......that sounds like nuanced concern.


I guess you won't mind explaining what the GOP's offer is then. I don't remember them bringing anything to the table so far. How can they bargain with themselves if they've offered NOTHING?

Unless you think an offer of spending cuts with no tax increases is an offer, in which case you and your state's GOP representative you're dry humping are both utterly devoid of sanity.
 
2012-11-30 11:22:26 AM  

The Jami Turman Fan Club: *Not sure why this would eliminate Pell Grants. It's just insurance for loans that are far harder to get rid of than standard loans. You'd think that wouldn't cost much.


Pell Grants aren't loans or insurance for loans. They're grants. Pell Grants, to be exact.
 
2012-11-30 11:23:09 AM  

un4gvn666: BTW, not necessarily directed at you, Giltric, just anyone who might genuinely be thinking like that.


Spoiler alert: he is
 
2012-11-30 11:25:58 AM  

cman: ghare: cman: He made a good point.

He was spot on in pointing out the bullshiat.

Too bad this will fall on deaf ears more focused on the blame-game over, you know, actually fixing the problem

To fix the problem, the people who are to blame need to, you know, stop being to blame.

But naw, BSABSVR.

When even John Stewart of all people calls his own side on their bullshiat, even you have got to agree that he may have a point. But go ahead, keep preaching BSABSVR.

We need to stop acting like children and act like adults. I am saying this to everyone. fark the blame game, that shiat wont get us anywhere. We need to be more diplomatic and far less aggressive.


Yeah, fark the blame game and those children who are spouting bullshiat. Why can't those shiatty morons realize that we need to be less divisive?
 
2012-11-30 11:34:04 AM  
This shouldn't be an issue.

Any reasonable economic model would look at the situation we are in and say we need both substantially increased revenue and substantial spending cuts in order to fix our problems. We also need massive entitlement reform. This is all given to any sane individual.

Tax increases are needed across the board, not just at the federal level. Local governments are strapped across the country not because of graft or poor spending (though these are certainly problems in certain communities), but because the demand for services far outweighs the amount of money paid for them. Years of lowering and eliminating property taxes have crippled municipalities ability to maintain basic roads, schools, and emergency services while the development of more and larger roads/wider spread suburban communities/less dense populations as folks move to single family homes only increases the costs of upkeep as the total area gets more spread out while revenue decreases as densities drop. If America wants to maintain the local needs for the basic standards of living we want, we simply have to pay more.

Cutting spending at the Federal Level, and raising taxes at the Federal Level, are a pair of things that need to be implemented carefully, but you do need both. Income disparity combined with a ballooning national debt are serious concerns, and one that every possible solution should be pursued, not just politically pedant ones. Every possible action that can be taken should be, and taking either off the table is not only irresponsible, but just plain bad governance. Similarly, entitlement reform needs to be addressed, specifically increasing the retirement age and the eligibility ages for such programs to what they were designed for. Social Security was intended to be used for the last 5 to 10 years of life, not the last 20 to 30. Americans are living longer, and working longer, and entitlements need to be adjusted in a fair and incremental way to address this.

The tax break on the first $250,000 earned is something I would personally like to see stay because it would be very useful to extend for another year or two to keep the recovery from the recession from being reversed. Everyone gets these benefits, even the wealthy, they just don't get additional tax breaks for their massive amounts of money above it. Ultimately, the changes in spending of the top earners really will not be noticeable with increased taxes, they will still be investing, building, and making great decisions that will stimulate and grow our economy (and anyone who suggests they would simply pack up and go home probably lacks the understanding that there is nowhere else in the world that they could go to have a better setup even without the Bush Tax Cuts). However, the lower brackets under $250,000 will see a very real and difficult change in their ability to buy and spend as their paychecks decrease. Eventually this needs to happen, but as we are in a very slow recovery from one of the worst recessions in history, now is not the best time to be considering slowing demand on the market. Two, Three, Four, or Five years from now? Probably. But for now it wouldn't be expedient.

Ultimately, we need the Republicans to start acting as a governing body and less as a sports team. Winning elections is critical, but people are more likely to vote for you across the isle if you actually start working to help the county, rather than working to help your party. A perfect example of this is Chris Christie, who is 100% safe in his office, or most future offices, because he focuses more on governing than he does on party (regardless of if you like his policies).
 
2012-11-30 11:34:52 AM  
One glaring problem in that segment for me: Stewart quoted Boehner directly for the Republican side then relied on Larry Kudlow to describe the Democratic position. It seemed designed to setup a false equivalence.
 
2012-11-30 11:36:37 AM  

Lumpmoose: One glaring problem in that segment for me: Stewart quoted Boehner directly for the Republican side then relied on Larry Kudlow to describe the Democratic position. It seemed designed to setup a false equivalence.


When it comes to skewing things in the Republican favor, aint no one a better mouthpiece than John Stewart. He is the biggest Republican of all time
 
2012-11-30 11:37:40 AM  

Jackson Herring: un4gvn666: BTW, not necessarily directed at you, Giltric, just anyone who might genuinely be thinking like that.

Spoiler alert: he is


Yeah, I found out just a little too late. I genuinely thought anyone using "the poors" in a sentence was just outright trolling/snarking.

/would that be like reverse Poe's Law? I can't even figure it out anymore
 
2012-11-30 11:48:29 AM  

cman: Lumpmoose: One glaring problem in that segment for me: Stewart quoted Boehner directly for the Republican side then relied on Larry Kudlow to describe the Democratic position. It seemed designed to setup a false equivalence.

When it comes to skewing things in the Republican favor, aint no one a better mouthpiece than John Stewart. He is the biggest Republican of all time


Stewart should have quoted Durbin in a newspaper article if they couldn't find video. They've done it before. Kudlow is exactly the pundit crank that Stewart would normally rail against. It tainted the segment, IMHO.
 
2012-11-30 11:49:18 AM  

un4gvn666: Yeah, I found out just a little too late. I genuinely thought anyone using "the poors" in a sentence was just outright trolling/snarking.


Years too late, I would say.
 
2012-11-30 11:50:12 AM  

Jackson Herring: un4gvn666: Yeah, I found out just a little too late. I genuinely thought anyone using "the poors" in a sentence was just outright trolling/snarking.

Years too late, I would say.


LOL, guess I need to LURK MOAR
 
2012-11-30 11:53:08 AM  

qorkfiend: the mortgage interest deduction is too helpful to too many people.


The only people it has been "Helpful" to are those that bought their house prior to it's creation, and have subsequently sold it at the higher market price the credit enabled people to pay.

For other homeowners it is neutral. For renters it is hurtful.

But the bankers LOVE it, so it will probably stay.
 
2012-11-30 11:58:09 AM  

Cubicle Jockey: For renters it is hurtful.


Between more people shifting from owners to renters, and owners paying monthly payments with no equity (effectively renting), I don't see where all this pain associated with ending the mortgage interest deduction comes from, if not from the wealthy.
 
2012-11-30 12:04:26 PM  

Giltric: thurstonxhowell: Giltric: 400 billion over 10 years is not enough...

Then the Republicans should suggest some more instead of whining that the Democrats don't do it for them.

Sort of like how the democrats version of presenting a budget is seeing what the republicans come up with and criticizing it without presenting one of their own?


Obama's had a budget proposal each of the last four years. Step out of the bubble. It's actually kind of nice out here in reality.
 
2012-11-30 12:04:29 PM  
Am I the only person who feels like the fiscal cliff really isn't that big of a deal? I mean it would definitely be better to have the spending cuts more specifically targeted. And I personally could do without the payroll tax hike. But we need more revenue, and defense cuts aren't a bad idea. So let's just go off the farking cliff and quit farking biatching about it.
 
2012-11-30 12:08:30 PM  

Oerath: Am I the only person who feels like the fiscal cliff really isn't that big of a deal? I mean it would definitely be better to have the spending cuts more specifically targeted. And I personally could do without the payroll tax hike. But we need more revenue, and defense cuts aren't a bad idea. So let's just go off the farking cliff and quit farking biatching about it.


From what I understand, a double dip recession is a possibility, but I honestly agree with you. We need to suck it up and accept responsibility for the fiscally irresponsible conservative government we've put together over the last 30 years. Since Republicans refuse to allow a measured and thoughtful approach, just scorched-earth the farking thing and be done with it. Americans will adapt like they always do.
 
2012-11-30 12:10:02 PM  

mrshowrules:

The US should spend a minimum of $2T in pure education and infrastructure spending over the next 10 years combine with gradual taxes increases to pre-Reagan era tax rates. This type of approach would balance the budget faster than anything being discussed today.


I agree. If we could peg the wage level for that spending at today's median income, you'd get some support for that. However, the Teacher's and Construction trades would never allow that, so our modern day WPA will never happen. Not because Republicans would never fund it, but because the Democrat Labor base would never allow a laborer to paint a bridge for $20 per hour.

Current Davis Bacon/Prevailing Wage Laws, by all means, look into them. Find out just what a NJ painter on a government funded project NEEDS to be paid.
 
2012-11-30 12:14:18 PM  
It's crossing the border from amusing to pathetic that you people are actually upset that the two parties "won't come together and fix the problem."

Neither of them care about fixing anything; only winning.
 
2012-11-30 12:15:01 PM  
If they are screwing with the M.I., why not just gradually cut it over 3 years or so. Keep a small portion of it. Seems much more sane then hacking the whole thing at once. As far as defense contractors go, evolve your product and prove your worth please.
 
2012-11-30 12:16:08 PM  

Giltric: I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving..... Whens the last time a poor person did that....

Keep pretending the wealthy dont spend a dime though.


Sorry, gotta pile on this.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you're in the 1%. So there are 99 "poor" people for every one of you, and that includes middle class families, etc. Each family in the "poor" category would only need to spend $1000 to match what you've spent in your two projects. Let's see. Oh, look this family bought a car that cost $15,000 dollars. And this family bought a new refrigerator at $1200. And these guys bought a new TV at $1300. And this family did a $2000 landscaping project. And so on, and so on.


In the end, which group spent more money across more industries that supported more jobs? The 1% or the "poor"?

I'll give you a hint: It ain't you.

/In the "poor" category
//Also spent $30K on landscaping
///
 
2012-11-30 12:32:06 PM  

FlashHarry: this is 100 percent the fault of the republicans. one. hundred. percent.

if they would have simply passed the debt ceiling raise - as they have dozens of times before - there would be no "fiscal cliff." the debt ceiling raise simply authorizes congress to pay for spending it has already passed. it is what's known as a "pro forma" vote - a formality. or so it was up until last year, when republicans decided to hold the nation hostage by threatening not to pay our bills. and what did we get for their farking childish petulance? a credit downgrade, a market drop, and the fiscal farking cliff.

fark the republicans. fark all of them. they OWN this.


they will pay for it in the midterms. unless things change, I can see a nice blue tied washing over the country. either that, or some very purple Republicans coming out of the woodwork.
 
2012-11-30 12:45:08 PM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: mrshowrules:

The US should spend a minimum of $2T in pure education and infrastructure spending over the next 10 years combine with gradual taxes increases to pre-Reagan era tax rates. This type of approach would balance the budget faster than anything being discussed today.

I agree. If we could peg the wage level for that spending at today's median income, you'd get some support for that. However, the Teacher's and Construction trades would never allow that, so our modern day WPA will never happen. Not because Republicans would never fund it, but because the Democrat Labor base would never allow a laborer to paint a bridge for $20 per hour.

Current Davis Bacon/Prevailing Wage Laws, by all means, look into them. Find out just what a NJ painter on a government funded project NEEDS to be paid.


I would argue the US problem is that there are not enough people making union-level wages. Hire more teachers and pay the best ones even more. Government should not be fighting unions to beat down wages, they should be fighting unions to fire the teachers not producing results. Pay teachers enough that people will fight for those jobs and the deadbeats won't be able to tough it out or won't enter the field to begin with because it is too competitive.

What does a corporation do when it wants the best programmers?
 
2012-11-30 12:57:26 PM  

Giltric: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?


They're all too busy firing people and limiting their hours to protest 'ObamaCare' to create any jobs.
 
2012-11-30 12:59:51 PM  

Giltric: un4gvn666: Giltric: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

Since we're asking rhetorical questions, who the hell do you think purchases all of the things that drive demand, and therefore, create jobs? The rich, who want for nothing? Or the poor and middle classes, who stretch every dollar to live?

I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving..... Whens the last time a poor person did that....

Keep pretending the wealthy dont spend a dime though.



Hahaha... and what did that create? 4 or 5 very jobs that lasted a couple of weeks? And how many people are doing that at any given time?

There are 10,000 poor and working class people within five minutes driving distance of you who collectively spend that much on bologna every single week.

One guy buying a private jet or refurbishing his yacht isn't worth shiat, job-creation wise, compared to a ten-thousand buying mid-tier 40" TV's.
 
2012-11-30 01:01:25 PM  

Giltric: bulldg4life: Giltric: Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.
You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?

Does it make your eye twitch when you say something so idiotic that first year college students taking macro economics would laugh at you

Did those 1st year maceoeconomics students eventually buy a house they could afford based on potential raises they might recieve over the course of employment while holding the note?


You mean those raises that we *haven't* gotten over the last 10 years, while all those Job-Creator fertilizing tax rates have been in effect?

Yea, I thought so.
 
2012-11-30 01:02:55 PM  

Giltric: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?


Of course they did. You know when your unemployment runs out and your sick of living in your father-in-laws basement, well you go find something that pays even if you have to invent it your self. Then as you work this job as a private contractor you eventually get enough work for two people. Well then you become a job creator.
 
2012-11-30 01:05:28 PM  

Mrbogey: If you want to go with the analogy of an asteroid, we built a 100 meter long asteroid and shot it at ourself to hit in 2013 while a 10 mile asteroid will hit us in 2035. If we can't deal with the small asteroid we created then were boned over the larger one.

If we don't deal with it now then one day we'll we'll be forced like Greece. Its not about today's finances. Its about the unsustainability of the federal budget.


www.rottenecards.com

\manufacture crises don't count
\\all it takes are minor adjustments to keep SS and Medicare solvent
\\\but who wants to do that when you can F it up now, so you can profit from the panic you generate tomorrow
 
2012-11-30 01:13:44 PM  

technicolor-misfit: One guy buying a private jet or refurbishing his yacht isn't worth shiat, job-creation wise, compared to a ten-thousand buying mid-tier 40" TV's.


I'd go with ten thousand folks getting haircuts, getting their oil changed in their cars, buying groceries, calling the plumber because their shiatter is clogged, paying for electricity/water/other utilities, going to the doctor for a check up, getting lunch at the deli, buying a soda at the gas station while the gas is pumping, getting a gym membership but never going, etc, rather than buying chinese consumer electronics, but yeah, your point is still valid.
 
2012-11-30 01:17:35 PM  
I like John Steward, but he is wrong on this one. The fiscal cliff was a compromise to deal with the bigger issue of what happens around 2030-2040 when the Baby Boomers are to expensive to keep alive, but nobody really wants to form death panels for Grammy.

The cliff is not a planet killing asteroid, it is a moderate reform that will be a drag on the economy. Unfortunately we have one party in this country that does not want to take on fiscal responsibility for the last 40 years of borrowing our way to prosperity.

Sucks for me and you, but the reality is if we don't double everyone's taxes, close the deficit, and pay down the debt there wont be an economy left to worry about around 2035,
 
2012-11-30 01:22:31 PM  

zedster: Otherwise Just Fine: This is getting predictable. Politicians stonewall until the market starts to tank, then come to an agreement and the market recovers. It's a good opportunity to make money off a crap situation.

Retail is scared this will kill this holiday season, that should keep some pressure on to solve this fast. Plus you have the defense establishment not wanting to get hit with the cuts. I have a feeling there will be more outside pressure on the GOP then on the Dems to solve this.


From the L. A. Times:
Merchants raked in an estimated $59.1 billion in sales from Thanksgiving Day through Sunday, up from $52.4 billion a year earlier, as millions flocked to stores and browsed online, according to the National Retail Federation. Spending per shopper jumped 6% to $423.

 
2012-11-30 01:31:03 PM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: mrshowrules:

The US should spend a minimum of $2T in pure education and infrastructure spending over the next 10 years combine with gradual taxes increases to pre-Reagan era tax rates. This type of approach would balance the budget faster than anything being discussed today.

I agree. If we could peg the wage level for that spending at today's median income, you'd get some support for that. However, the Teacher's and Construction trades would never allow that, so our modern day WPA will never happen. Not because Republicans would never fund it, but because the Democrat Labor base would never allow a laborer to paint a bridge for $20 per hour.

Current Davis Bacon/Prevailing Wage Laws, by all means, look into them. Find out just what a NJ painter on a government funded project NEEDS to be paid.


I don't know what third world shiathole of the US you live in, but $20 an hour really isn't that much money. I make considerably more than that, and given my current single status, I would say that I'm far from comfortable, however I am well off. these are the exact types of jobs we should be creating.
 
2012-11-30 01:33:36 PM  
I just spent 70k overhauling a king air....and 30k on landscaping before thanksgiving.....

And what % of your yearly income was that?
Poor people spend 100% of their income. Too bad they have less than 1% of the money or the economy would be going great guns.
If the top 1% would make a commitment to spend 100% of their income (not asking for a decrease in capitol) for a year or two, we wouldn't have nearly the economic problem that we do.
 
2012-11-30 01:53:56 PM  

Old Man Winter: [deadhomersociety.files.wordpress.com image 512x384]


Correct.

Futurama for POTUS!!!!
 
2012-11-30 02:05:16 PM  

CheapEngineer: all it takes are minor adjustments to keep SS and Medicare solvent


Minor being tax increases, raised retirement ages, and means testing. Things that just push it off for a few more decades assuming positive economic growth follows.

It would certainly suck if the US economy experiences a Japanese styled long term recession.
 
2012-11-30 02:05:22 PM  

DRFS Rich: Dr Dreidel:>
I also caught an interesting fact on WTOP yesterday evening - apparently, the US is one of the only first-world countries (if not the only one) that still has a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, it'd suck if we got rid of it, especially for new homeowners, but it appears that the rest of the developed world does just fine.

The M.I. deduction saves me a grand or two in taxes each year. I would hate to see it go, but if it's going to substantially improve the economy and our fiscal future I can accept it.

What I can't accept is discussion of it this late in the tax season. If this is going to happen, it needs to be announced before April 16th for the following tax year.

If you're going to pull the rug out from a lot of middle-class folks on this, they need time to prepare accordingly.


It has to phased out over multiple years. People will need to plan and adapt their finances.

It'll also be good for potential homeowners, as the tax benefit helps those who are already established by taking money out of the pockets of non-homeowners. It doesn't so much help people buy a home so much as help them buy more expensive homes. The market will adapt to sell; it has to.

Home prices are still in a bubble have far to fall. They need to fall. They don't need to crash & splatter, but they need to fall.
 
2012-11-30 02:34:08 PM  

Giltric: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?


I know you're kiding, but that's the most galling thing to me about he "JOb Creator" label: ALL spending creates jobs, by creating demand, and frankly the rich do a poorer job of it than normal folks. Buying a $100,000 does not create 10x the automotive manufacturing jobs as the guy buying a $10k car. A $5,000 bespoke suit does not require the employ of 50x of the number of garmet workers as the $100 version being mass-produced for the Men's Warehouse.

In fact, dollar for dollar, you know who the REAL job creators are? The poorest of the Poor. Studies have shown that for every $1 you add to a food stamp benefit you create about $1.15 in new spending in the economy. Spend that same $1 on tax cuts for the top income brackets and only about $0.30 gets spent.
 
2012-11-30 02:44:30 PM  

qorkfiend: DRFS Rich: Dr Dreidel:>
I also caught an interesting fact on WTOP yesterday evening - apparently, the US is one of the only first-world countries (if not the only one) that still has a mortgage interest deduction. Yes, it'd suck if we got rid of it, especially for new homeowners, but it appears that the rest of the developed world does just fine.

The M.I. deduction saves me a grand or two in taxes each year. I would hate to see it go, but if it's going to substantially improve the economy and our fiscal future I can accept it.

What I can't accept is discussion of it this late in the tax season. If this is going to happen, it needs to be announced before April 16th for the following tax year.

If you're going to pull the rug out from a lot of middle-class folks on this, they need time to prepare accordingly.

I think that if they do it, it'll be phased out over a fairly long timespan, something like five or ten years, so as to avoid exactly the kind of problem you describe.

Though, honestly, I don't think it'll happen; the mortgage interest deduction is too helpful to too many people.


Everyone knows that home ownership is a cornerstone of the "American Dream". It is well known that home ownership creates more stable neighborhoods. It also is a tangible "buy-in" into society, and having that buy in makes social contracts work. There is no way the federal government is going to destroy one of the few remaining benefits to owning your own home, not when there are corporate tax loopholes out there so glaring that billion-dollar companies get away with paying no taxes of any kind.
 
2012-11-30 03:37:18 PM  

Mrbogey: CheapEngineer: all it takes are minor adjustments to keep SS and Medicare solvent

Minor being tax increases, raised retirement ages, and means testing. Things that just push it off for a few more decades assuming positive economic growth follows.

It would certainly suck if the US economy experiences a Japanese styled long term recession.


" tax increases, raised retirement ages, and means testing " =/= massive benefit cut, block grants to states, and turning the fund over to the Stock Market

\"Japanese styled long term recession"? You mean the 10 years of lousy economy caused by inappropriate austerity? Like Europe is doing right now?
\\and the Republicans are demanding, right now?
 
2012-11-30 03:45:32 PM  

Otherwise Just Fine: Usually, yes. Speculation is bad, investing based on value is good. But do you really think the GOP will cut a deal before the markets force them to?


Hard to say. At this point they are playing poker and may simply be bluffing. What if they aren't as dumb as they appear. If they know they will be blamed for a failure to compromise (which they will) they might just be "negotiating" by acting tuff right up until they say uncle.

I wouldn't bet my money on which it is. But I guess it has been a while since anybody lost money betting on GOP stupidity.
 
2012-11-30 04:14:10 PM  

Giltric: Gwendolyn: zedster: Republicans, you kicked the can down the road hoping you would flip the white house and gain enough votes in the Senate. You failed, the American public rejected your plan. Hell the Ryan plan did more damage to you then it helped. Stop being babies and admit your policies suck. Obama appears to not be folding this time being both a lame duck and having the public on his side.

the only thing that can come from this for the Republicans is a further loss of the senior vote, way to alienate one of your strongest demographics

I can't imagine the republicans gaining much ground with their cut to Medicare and raising the age for social security so they can protect tax cuts for "job creators" who haven't created a farking job in years already.

Obama said 5 million jobs were created in the last 4 years.......he even used those numbers in his campaign.

You dont thonk the poors created those jobs....do you?


I don't think the super rich created them either.

The only jobs created by the super rich and their corporations are in China and India.

Most likely is that small business owners hired more people.
 
2012-11-30 04:37:29 PM  

Zeb Hesselgresser: Current Davis Bacon/Prevailing Wage Laws, by all means, look into them. Find out just what a NJ painter on a government funded project NEEDS to be paid.


What's wrong with paying a professional painter $35.99 an hour?
 
2012-11-30 05:09:14 PM  
I've heard a couple of people mention means testing for Social Security and Medicare.

I cry bullshait.

If I've paid into Social Security my entire working life, I get my social security. If I've paid FICA my entire working life, I get my Medicare. The number of rich people "on the dole" is nowhere near the drain on the system that making every senior fill out proof of income (or lack thereof.)
 
2012-11-30 05:14:54 PM  

FlashHarry: this is 100 percent the fault of the republicans. one. hundred. percent.

if they would have simply passed the debt ceiling raise - as they have dozens of times before - there would be no "fiscal cliff." the debt ceiling raise simply authorizes congress to pay for spending it has already passed. it is what's known as a "pro forma" vote - a formality. or so it was up until last year, when republicans decided to hold the nation hostage by threatening not to pay our bills. and what did we get for their farking childish petulance? a credit downgrade, a market drop, and the fiscal farking cliff.

fark the republicans. fark all of them. they OWN this.


And don't forget, the "Debt Ceiling" is itself a completely fictitious construct that could be swept away with an act of congress.
 
2012-11-30 07:47:08 PM  

CheapEngineer: You mean the 10 years of lousy economy caused by inappropriate austerity? Like Europe is doing right now?


Link

Link

Uh huh.
 
2012-11-30 08:54:01 PM  

Mrbogey: CheapEngineer: You mean the 10 years of lousy economy caused by inappropriate austerity? Like Europe is doing right now?

Link

Link

Uh huh.


The Myth of European Austerity By Lenwood Brooks

Lenwood Brooks is policy director of Public Notice, an independent, nonpartisan, nonprofit dedicated to providing facts and insight on the economy and how policy affects our financial well-being.  

How Keynes failed Japan

A hedge fund manager, lecturing on how to *not* f%$# up the economy? Riiiiight.

\keep trying
 
2012-11-30 09:40:34 PM  
Time to go off the cliff and end the Bush tax cuts that have helped put us in this hole. And if being only $600B in the red next year is the equivalent of an asteroid hitting us, then we're all screwed, so we might as well get this over with quickly.
 
2012-12-01 02:56:19 AM  

Mrbogey: It would certainly suck if the US economy experiences a Japanese styled long term recession.


Oh, how happy you would be!
 
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