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(Yahoo)   Country singer Trace Adkins says he didn't mean anything by his using a Confederate flag earpiece at the Rockefeller Center tree lighting ceremony, noting that his swastika earpiece was in his other pair of pants   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 506
    More: Stupid, Trace Adkins, Rockefeller Center, USO, hip-huggers, Lacunar amnesia, brightness, pairs  
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8165 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Nov 2012 at 11:15 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-30 04:28:57 PM  

The Southern Dandy: The difference being, they were treasonous for the cause of liberty, and confederates were treasonous for the cause of slavery.


The Founding Fathers (most of them) were also slave-owners and protected slavery in the country they founded -- just like the Confederates. Both groups used words like "liberty", but they meant it in a very limited & narrowly-defined sense.

The biggest real difference is that one group won, and the other group lost. So, morally, it's mostly the principle of "might makes right" or "the victors write the history books" that we're defending here...
 
2012-11-30 04:30:11 PM  

Rostin: The US government intentionally withheld syphilis treatments from black people in a long running medical experiment that lasted until 1972. It also interned Japanese people in WWII, continued screwing over Native Americans well into the 20th century, and is indirectly responsible for the deaths of an estimated 100,000 Iraqi citizens.

Why is it acceptable to wear a US flag but not a Confederate one? It's certainly not because the US has been a great respecter of the rights of minorities. The only reason I can think of is that the CSA lost.


Because the Confederacy was born around one and only one issue -- keeping slaves.
 
2012-11-30 04:34:55 PM  

bonobo73: Rostin: The US government intentionally withheld syphilis treatments from black people in a long running medical experiment that lasted until 1972. It also interned Japanese people in WWII, continued screwing over Native Americans well into the 20th century, and is indirectly responsible for the deaths of an estimated 100,000 Iraqi citizens.

Why is it acceptable to wear a US flag but not a Confederate one? It's certainly not because the US has been a great respecter of the rights of minorities. The only reason I can think of is that the CSA lost.

Because the Confederacy was born around one and only one issue -- keeping slaves.


Wrong, but thanks for playing.
 
2012-11-30 04:36:18 PM  

ChuDogg: When Im in the US, I'm an American. When I'm traveling abroad, I'm Canadian.


Ha! Very true. I find that in Europe, "Texan" works fine. Outside of Europe Canadian is the easiest option to avoid negative reactions.

DeathCipris: I think it is a "former largest state in America" thing combined with old western movies. Even foreigners know who John Wayne and Clint Eastwood are.


Apparantly, Also Dallas. For reasons I can't easily explain it appears that it was immensely popular abroad for a time well after it stopped airing here.

CheekyMonkey: I would submit that the most recent shift for the confederate flag occurred in the 1950s and 1960s, when it was adopted as a symbol by anti-civil-rights protesters. As such, it took on a more overtly racist tone than it had in the late 1800s, when it was a symbol of secession.


The shift was even more recent than that, and was propogated largely by non-southerners during the rise of 'political correctness' in the 80s.

Need I remind you that the Dukes of Hazard proudly featured a confederate flag bedecked car called "The General Lee" that played 'Dixie' was widely enjoyed across the country on CBS during prime-time from 1979 to 1985. (I grew up in a largely black town, and we ALL lusted for the General Lee lunchboxes and bicycles.) It was common to see black cooks at the Houston Livestock show and Rodeo proudly decked out head to toe in the stars and bars.

he re-branding of the Rebel Flag from 'good ol' boy cool outlaw' to 'racist asshole' began in the last few decades, pushed largely by those who sought to advance their political agendas through division. And ignorant northerners all too happy to self-confirm their provencial worldview.
 
2012-11-30 04:37:31 PM  

bonobo73: Rostin: The US government intentionally withheld syphilis treatments from black people in a long running medical experiment that lasted until 1972. It also interned Japanese people in WWII, continued screwing over Native Americans well into the 20th century, and is indirectly responsible for the deaths of an estimated 100,000 Iraqi citizens.

Why is it acceptable to wear a US flag but not a Confederate one? It's certainly not because the US has been a great respecter of the rights of minorities. The only reason I can think of is that the CSA lost.

Because the Confederacy was born around one and only one issue -- keeping slaves.


Quite so, just as the Japanese Empire entered WWII for the sole purpose of killing Jews.
 
2012-11-30 04:38:26 PM  

craig328: Nah, I'm good. Debating you on the basis of your fantasy life is ridiculous in the extreme. I'd rather play "I got yer nose" with an infant. Let's just go ahead and stick with your two best (and totally believable) assertions today and we can leave it wherever you like in Fantasyland. The entire first paragraph above and this one:

Nearly every southerner that flies the rebel flag, sticks it on their car, or wears it on their clothes is happy to talk to you about why. At great length.

I will be happy to correct one thing though: everything I wrote didn't come from imaginary (and apparently cataloged so you can count them...amazing that) interviews with stereotypical southern rednecks. It came from, you know, actually living here and being a part of the communities you claim you've so vigorously engaged in debate. I don't know what came over me, thinking that lifelong experience versus clearly fabricated claims of an interview campaign would be comparable in veracity. Silly me. My bad.


So, wait.... you're willing to agree that southerners that fly the Confederate flag will talk about it and defend it strongly to those that challenge it, but my experience living around those that fly the flag can't be real? My contention wasn't that you didn't know better than I, just that it doesn't appear you've engaged many on the subject (for whatever reason - agreement, disinterest, whatever). I have, and still do.

I do so often because it's of great interest to me. Being fairly liberal in Texas - previously Oklahoma, Virginia, and having dozens of relatives living in the south that I visit annually - there's lots of opportunity to argue with people who disagree with me. I pick Confederate flag fliers because it's I do enjoy that particular debate. But no, for some reason that's unbelievable? Do you think about what you type?
 
2012-11-30 04:39:53 PM  

jshine: The Southern Dandy: The difference being, they were treasonous for the cause of liberty, and confederates were treasonous for the cause of slavery.

The Founding Fathers (most of them) were also slave-owners and protected slavery in the country they founded -- just like the Confederates. Both groups used words like "liberty", but they meant it in a very limited & narrowly-defined sense.

The biggest real difference is that one group won, and the other group lost. So, morally, it's mostly the principle of "might makes right" or "the victors write the history books" that we're defending here...


The difference is the vector of the causes. The founding father's cause vectored toward liberty...they weren't there yet, but they were going that way. The confederates cause vectored toward slavery. They were there and they wanted to stay that way.
 
2012-11-30 04:41:18 PM  
Vectoring toward liberty= noble
Vectoring toward slavery = despicable
 
2012-11-30 04:45:48 PM  

Burr: Proctor: All right, here's your last question. What was the cause of
the Civil War?
Apu: Actually, there were numerous causes. Aside from the obvious
schism between the abolitionists and the anti-abolitionists,
there were economic factors, both domestic and inter--
Proctor: Wait, wait... just say slavery.
Apu: Slavery it is, sir.


Essentially correct. All the factors above -- abolition, economics boil down to one thing -- slavery.

What I think is more interesting to ponder is that for over 200 years the colonies and then the USA benefited from slavery's economic advantages and I think it's fair to say that the USA would never have existed without slavery.

So without slavery we would not have the freedoms we enjoy today.
 
2012-11-30 04:46:31 PM  

ChuDogg: When Im in the US, I'm an American. When I'm traveling abroad, I'm Canadian.


No you're a coward. Give other people a chance to see that Americans aren't what they think. Its also disrespectful to go to another country and lie about where you are from. Not that anyone believes that you've actually left the states or anything.
 
2012-11-30 04:52:54 PM  

FlashHarry: "southern heritage," my ass. it's a symbol of slavery and treason, nothing more.


I give less than a shiat about this subject, but I lived in Georgia for several years, and to some people it was nothing more than a symbol of them being a southerner. Not about slavery or bigotry or anything. It was more like having a "I [heart] New York" sticker or something like that.

But it's changed since everyone got so very, very PC. NOW it's a symbol of bigotry.
 
2012-11-30 04:55:44 PM  

The Southern Dandy: jshine: The Southern Dandy: The difference being, they were treasonous for the cause of liberty, and confederates were treasonous for the cause of slavery.

The Founding Fathers (most of them) were also slave-owners and protected slavery in the country they founded -- just like the Confederates. Both groups used words like "liberty", but they meant it in a very limited & narrowly-defined sense.

The biggest real difference is that one group won, and the other group lost. So, morally, it's mostly the principle of "might makes right" or "the victors write the history books" that we're defending here...

The difference is the vector of the causes. The founding father's cause vectored toward liberty...they weren't there yet, but they were going that way. The confederates cause vectored toward slavery. They were there and they wanted to stay that way.



Well, I suppose we're all entitled to our opinions, but I think of the founding fathers as protecting slavery since the economy of the 13 colonies depended on it, just as the economy of the South still depended on it 80 years later during the Civil War.

In both cases they were willing to compromise on ideals like "liberty" in order to support their financial best interests. Washington may have disliked the idea slavery -- which is all well and good -- but he didn't dislike it enough to avoid owning dozens of them.

I'm not saying either group was evil, exactly (the Confederates didn't keep slaves because they enjoyed inflicting misery), just that they were more than happy to put dollars and "realpolitik" ahead of principles -- as are most people even today.
 
2012-11-30 04:58:03 PM  
This is much ado about nothing. People need to stop getting their panties in a bunch when these 'yards take the stage. Today's country music is for housewives, guys doin' the drywall, and for kids who don't know any better.
 
2012-11-30 04:59:15 PM  

Great Odins Raven: ChuDogg: When Im in the US, I'm an American. When I'm traveling abroad, I'm Canadian.

No you're a coward. Give other people a chance to see that Americans aren't what they think. Its also disrespectful to go to another country and lie about where you are from. Not that anyone believes that you've actually left the states or anything.


Sometimes lying is the only option.
For instance:
"Meestah, are you Catholic or Muslim?"

"Um...Catholic? I guess."

/Atheist cuz somebody cares
 
2012-11-30 05:02:43 PM  

The Southern Dandy: The confederates cause vectored toward slavery. They were there and they wanted to stay that way.


Don't you thnk that is a bit over-simplified and broad? Both The Founding Fathers and the Confederacy rebelled and sought independance becasue they did not feel that they had a voice in a foreign power that dictated down to them. They both were willing to fight and die rather than live under a "tyrannical yoke" of a foreign authority. Considering how few Southerners who took up arms and willingly marched of to war owned slaves much less had a stake in slaveholding, it is a bit innacurate to argue that the prinary reason confederate soldiers fought was to protect slavery.

By most accounts, Robert E. Lee himself was opposed to slavery, but famously felt his duty to his state and his people was more important.

So here's the main thing: For most of the confederates, other factors were MORE important than slavery.

Obviously, the institution of slavery was a central, and pivotal factor in the split, but it was not usually the reason why confederates fought and died. And that is a very important aspect to understand when trying to understand why Southerners hold Dixie, and the Confederate flag, and other symbols of "The Lost Cause" dear. Because for them and for their grandfathers and great-great-grandfathers, the war was not fought over slavery, but against northern invaders seeking to subjugate them.

Very few southerners are descended from Plantation owners, but many, many Southerners are descended from Johnny Reb.

And the years of Reconstruction inflicted deep wounds that lasted longer and left deepr resentment than the war itself. Even the generation beyond the war suffered and remembered the carpet baggers and the decades of being treated like a conquered country.

I say this just to try to help those of you who seem to be fundamentally missing the WHY of 'southern pride'. I don't expect that anyone not steeped in the culture can truly understand it, but you shoudl at least be able to appreciate and respect that there are valid reasons for it.
 
2012-11-30 05:04:13 PM  

Frank N Stein: As a 100% pure northerner, who cares if a southerner flys the Confederate navel ensign? The war was 150 years ago, and just as those flying the flag should "get over it", so should some of those in this thread that wail of treachery.

It's hard to be offended by something that is being buried in history.


I'm going to recommend that you go visit Virginia around Shenandoah National Park. Stay in Strasburg. Hotel Strasburg is rather fun. Spend some time in the Hotel bar - a good number of the locals frequent the place, mostly nice people. They'll ask you if you are staying at the hotel - the town's pretty small so you will stand out. Ask 'em about the battlefield just north of town, between Strasburg and Middletown. It's called Cedar Creek. You will find out in Strasburg it is still 1870, reconstruction is not over, and Sheridan's counterattack is something they all think they experienced personally.

/I'm from the North
//I was there on business
///I'd been warned... I saw the attitude first hand though, some other idiot set them off.
////I might even go back - I always enjoy historical reenactments and they do a doozy
 
2012-11-30 05:07:59 PM  

The Southern Dandy: Vectoring toward liberty= noble
Vectoring toward slavery = despicable


i.imgur.com
And always vectoring, vectoring, vectoring toward freedom!
 
2012-11-30 05:08:20 PM  

CheekyMonkey: Digital Communist: How dare people* be proud of their heritage!

*people I was taught not to like

I'm proud of my German heritage. You don't see me flying the Nazi flag, though, because I'm not proud of that particular period in Germany's history. This is a either a distinction lost on the tards who fly the confederate flag, or they are proud of treason and racism that the confederate flag represents.


Maybe, but you're forgetting the whole generational aspect here. The American Civil War was 147 years ago. WWII was only 67 years ago. The longer you go, the more the symbol's meaning is going to twist. It's one of the same reasons that you wouldn't bat an eye at
toprestaurantsli.comrestaurantcity.us
but
farm2.static.flickr.com
makes you stare in disbelief.

Alright, granted they don't have symbols of military forces themselves... And of course there's other reasons like if your country was involved in the conflicts. But you get what I'm saying. The Confederate flag is in the middle somewhere. Some people hold it up for racism and treason, some grew up being told it was part of their state's pride, and some are just two good ole boys, never meaning no harm...
 
2012-11-30 05:09:48 PM  

jshine: Publikwerks: jshine: Isn't the US as a whole based on a treasonous, secessionist armed insurrection? Our flag should be:

It's only treason if you lose. Or as the SEALs say "It Pays to be a Winner".

Exactly. As long as we're not trying to say that "treason is wrong because its morally wrong", but rather "its okay as long as you win" ("might makes right") -- then I'm fine with it. Because that's the real difference between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War. One was successful & its proponents were heroes, the other was not successful and its proponents were traitors.


Remember, in historical monarchy, King by Right of Conquest was actually one of the stronger claims to the throne. As in "You want me to step down? You and what army?" And if you couldn't point to the army you were probably going to find out how long you live being a head shorter. So yes, at some basic, fundamental level might does make right, or at least makes the rules.
 
2012-11-30 05:13:59 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: CheekyMonkey: I would submit that the most recent shift for the confederate flag occurred in the 1950s and 1960s, when it was adopted as a symbol by anti-civil-rights protesters. As such, it took on a more overtly racist tone than it had in the late 1800s, when it was a symbol of secession.

The shift was even more recent than that, and was propogated largely by non-southerners during the rise of 'political correctness' in the 80s.

Need I remind you that the Dukes of Hazard proudly featured a confederate flag bedecked car called "The General Lee" that played 'Dixie' was widely enjoyed across the country on CBS during prime-time from 1979 to 1985. (I grew up in a largely black town, and we ALL lusted for the General Lee lunchboxes and bicycles.) It was common to see black cooks at the Houston Livestock show and Rodeo proudly decked out head to toe in the stars and bars.

he re-branding of the Rebel Flag from 'good ol' boy cool outlaw' to 'racist asshole' began in the last few decades, pushed largely by those who sought to advance their political agendas through division. And ignorant northerners all too happy to self-confirm their provencial worldview.


Oh, I don't think so. Regardless of the fact that it was used on a TV show that you liked as a kid, the confederate flag was appropriated as a symbol by racist, anti-civil-rights protestors. Why don't you wander upthread and take a gander at the pictures in this post:

http://www.fark.com/comments/7460765/81004313#c81004313

What do they all have in common? The last picture is particularly telling...

Your argument is akin to saying that because many people found Hogan's Heros funny, that the swastika is no longer a symbol of Nazi oppression.
 
2012-11-30 05:14:01 PM  
is this the fella who cannot tell the difference between serving in vietnam...and the fields of ahghanistan?

where are those wmds, trace? 

-the ugly american, it's its best.
 
2012-11-30 05:14:36 PM  
*at.

you get it.
 
2012-11-30 05:15:22 PM  

MadHatter500: Remember, in historical monarchy, King by Right of Conquest was actually one of the stronger claims to the throne. As in "You want me to step down? You and what army?" And if you couldn't point to the army you were probably going to find out how long you live being a head shorter. So yes, at some basic, fundamental level might does make right, or at least makes the rules.


t0.gstatic.com 

/ that principle could also useful in Israel threads
 
2012-11-30 05:18:01 PM  

CheekyMonkey: Your argument is akin to saying that because many people found Hogan's Heros funny, that the swastika is no longer a symbol of Nazi oppression.


It would be if the Nazis were the good guys in Hogan's Heroes. They weren't.
 
2012-11-30 05:19:12 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: The Southern Dandy: The confederates cause vectored toward slavery. They were there and they wanted to stay that way.

Don't you thnk that is a bit over-simplified and broad? Both The Founding Fathers and the Confederacy rebelled and sought independance becasue they did not feel that they had a voice in a foreign power that dictated down to them. They both were willing to fight and die rather than live under a "tyrannical yoke" of a foreign authority. Considering how few Southerners who took up arms and willingly marched of to war owned slaves much less had a stake in slaveholding, it is a bit innacurate to argue that the prinary reason confederate soldiers fought was to protect slavery.

By most accounts, Robert E. Lee himself was opposed to slavery, but famously felt his duty to his state and his people was more important.

So here's the main thing: For most of the confederates, other factors were MORE important than slavery.

Obviously, the institution of slavery was a central, and pivotal factor in the split, but it was not usually the reason why confederates fought and died. And that is a very important aspect to understand when trying to understand why Southerners hold Dixie, and the Confederate flag, and other symbols of "The Lost Cause" dear. Because for them and for their grandfathers and great-great-grandfathers, the war was not fought over slavery, but against northern invaders seeking to subjugate them.

Very few southerners are descended from Plantation owners, but many, many Southerners are descended from Johnny Reb.

And the years of Reconstruction inflicted deep wounds that lasted longer and left deepr resentment than the war itself. Even the generation beyond the war suffered and remembered the carpet baggers and the decades of being treated like a conquered country.

I say this just to try to help those of you who seem to be fundamentally missing the WHY of 'southern pride'. I don't expect that anyone not steeped in the culture can truly understan ...


Some things remain the same. in 1860 they got them to fight against their best interests, now they just get them to vote against their best interests, all to support a society they don't, and will never be allowed, to participate in. The name tags may have changed hands, but not much else has. Maybe another 20 years of continued urbanization will do the trick.
 
2012-11-30 05:20:35 PM  

Snarfangel: And always vectoring, vectoring, vectoring toward freedom!

Tower voice: Flight 2-0-9'er cleared for vector 324.
Roger Murdock: We have clearance, Clarence.
Captain Oveur: Roger, Roger. What's our vector, Victor?
Tower voice: Tower's radio clearance, over!
Captain Oveur: That's Clarence Oveur. Over.
Tower voice: Over.
Captain Oveur: Roger.
Roger Murdock: Huh?

 
2012-11-30 05:21:27 PM  

doyner: sweetmelissa31: Jackson Herring: i.imgur.com

Ahh holy sh*t. Furrman Göring.

We must eliminate the mews!


They're in the liebensraum.
 
2012-11-30 05:22:09 PM  

CheekyMonkey: Why don't you wander upthread and take a gander at the pictures in this post: http://www.fark.com/comments/7460765/81004313#c81004313


Also, that's a weak point. The Klan also uses the cross as a symbol, but the crucifix is not a racist symbol. Nor are Wizards.
 
2012-11-30 05:23:31 PM  

ProfessorOhki: CheekyMonkey: Digital Communist: How dare people* be proud of their heritage!*people I was taught not to likeI'm proud of my German heritage. You don't see me flying the Nazi flag, though, because I'm not proud of that particular period in Germany's history. This is a either a distinction lost on the tards who fly the confederate flag, or they are proud of treason and racism that the confederate flag represents.Maybe, but you're forgetting the whole generational aspect here. The American Civil War was 147 years ago. WWII was only 67 years ago. The longer you go, the more the symbol's meaning is going to twist. It's one of the same reasons that you wouldn't bat an eye atbutmakes you stare in disbelief.Alright, granted they don't have symbols of military forces themselves... And of course there's other reasons like if your country was involved in the conflicts. But you get what I'm saying. The Confederate flag is in the middle somewhere. Some people hold it up for racism and treason, some grew up being told it was part of their state's pride, and some are just two good ole boys, never meaning no harm...


Actually, I dislike the confederate flag, not so much because of it's American Civil War history, but rather because it was appropriated as a symbol by anti-civil-rights racists during the 1950s and 1960s.

I take your point, though, that many Southern folks have been brought up to believe that it's "just part of their heritage". It's kind of an ignorant view of things, though.
 
2012-11-30 05:25:37 PM  

MadHatter500: Some things remain the same. in 1860 they got them to fight against their best interests, now they just get them to vote against their best interests, all to support a society they don't, and will never be allowed, to participate in. The name tags may have changed hands, but not much else has. Maybe another 20 years of continued urbanization will do the trick.


Is your point that southerners are all just too stupid to do anything but follow intructions from some vaguely defined overseers? And do you think that this is a charicteristic somehow unique to Southerners? I'm amazed you can even lift a brush that broad.
 
2012-11-30 05:26:16 PM  

Rostin: The US government intentionally withheld syphilis treatments from black people in a long running medical experiment that lasted until 1972. It also interned Japanese people in WWII, continued screwing over Native Americans well into the 20th century, and is indirectly responsible for the deaths of an estimated 100,000 Iraqi citizens.

Why is it acceptable to wear a US flag but not a Confederate one? It's certainly not because the US has been a great respecter of the rights of minorities. The only reason I can think of is that the CSA lost.


Yup.

That and they're a bunch of racist, slavery loving, sister farking douchebags.
 
2012-11-30 05:34:46 PM  
I find it amusing that people get all up in arms over that one particular confederate battle flag, but flying the Bonnie Blue is A-Ok.
 
2012-11-30 05:43:39 PM  

FlashHarry: "southern heritage," my ass. it's a symbol of slavery and treason, nothing more.


You should wear a flag of a Sandy Vagina.
 
2012-11-30 05:43:46 PM  

CheekyMonkey: I take your point, though, that many Southern folks have been brought up to believe that it's "just part of their heritage". It's kind of an ignorant view of things, though.


Except it's NOT ignorant. You just don't ascribe the same values to the symbols as they do. And in that way, you are actually more ignorant because you don't understand and can't be bothered to learn more or try to gain a deeper understanding of WHY so many of your fellow countrymen, even well educated, intelligent and proffesional people continue to take pride in their confederate heritage without concerning themselves much at all with slavery or racism.

And the answer is that for many Southerners, the civil war and the Reconstruction era that followed it was much, much more about northern aggression and oppression. Once slavery was over, it was over. The blacks didn't strip people's lands, burn down their factories and homes and take over their government. But the North certainly did. Sounterhners don't call it "The war when the slaves got loose" they call it "The War of Northern Agression", because for most southerners that was the primary charicsteristic. And the humiliation of the Reconstruction lasted for generations.

It might also be helpful to understand that Southern Culture places a MUCH stronger emphasis on family history and lineage than the far more migratory norther culture does. And in that enviornment, you are much more likely to have heard of your great-great grandfather who was a Colonel in the Confedracy. You are much more likely to see family photos of your great-grandfathers, and great-uncles in confederate uniforms, and no one shoudl be expected to be ashamed of family who fought and died protecting their homes and their country.

Further, in the south you see the local graveyards where the confederate soldiers are laid to rest. The battlefields are in your hometown, the war memorials are in your town. The local history is rich with tales of the war and the aftermath.

Northerners just don't have the same exposure to the traces of the war that the south does, because it was not really ever fought on Northern soil. The south didn't invade and ravage the north. But the Union army most definately did in the south, and the scars are still there a hundred and fifty years later. Just as the scars of Cromwell are still all over Ireland, and the battlefields of the Revolutionary war are still all over New England.

And none of THAT has anything really to do with racism.
 
2012-11-30 05:47:34 PM  
Jesus.

Oh wait, I just offended Christians as well as atheists and Muslims and Buddhists and whatever by the use of that one word.


Bunch of crybaby pussies Americans are.
 
2012-11-30 05:54:36 PM  
etc.usf.edu

And this is at Arlington National Cemetery. Should we eradicate all these too? Even though one side one an done side lost, we still honor the dead from both sides. To me, this is what makes America great.
 
2012-11-30 05:57:57 PM  

FriarReb98: And for the record, anyone who is offended by a Confederate Battle Flag but not the Georgia state flag needs a history book on why the state essentially pegged a giant middle finger in the face of the offended and got away with it.


You mean the former Georgia flag. In your haste to sound smart you left out the Mississippi flag.

Unless you meant the current Georgia flag looks very similar to the Confederate National Flags, aka the stars and bars (which is not the proper term for the rebel flag), but I'm pretty sure you weren't going there.

If you ask me, which nobody did, I think a bunch of whiny douchefarks decided the Confederate battle flag of North Virginia rebel flag was racist simply because many Southerners flew it. And those whiny douchetards were very successful, because now said flag is embraced by racists as a symbol of racism as much as it is shunned by others as a symbol of racism.

There are still many Southerners who embrace the flag as a symbol of Southern heritage when the US government violated the 10th amendment. When people cry "it was all about slavery! oh my!" they need to realize that the Emancipation Proclamation ended slavery in the "rebel states" and did not outlaw it in Northern states. The government farked the Southern states, simple as that.
 
2012-11-30 06:06:01 PM  

Gunny Highway: Coco LaFemme: What exactly is Southern heritage? The South is part of the USA, so why not just say American heritage? I'm from Chicago, my boyfriend is from Manhattan, and I've never heard anyone talk about their "Northern" heritage. I'm an American; I don't define myself by what chunk of the country I'm from. I don't go around calling myself a Midwesterner.

Northern heritage? Child labor and discrimination.

/or something


Actually the correct term was indentured servitude:

Link

"When White servitude is acknowledged as having existed in America, it is almost always termed as temporary "indentured servitude" or part of the convict trade, which, after the Revolution of 1776, centered on Australia instead of America. The "convicts" transported to America under the 1723 Waltham Act, perhaps numbered 100,000."

"The indentured servants who served a tidy little period of 4 to 7 years polishing the master's silver and china and then taking their place in colonial high society, were a minuscule fraction of the great unsung hundreds of thousands of White slaves who were worked to death in this country from the early l7th century onward."

"Up to one-half of all the arrivals in the American colonies were Whites slaves and they were America's first slaves. These Whites were slaves for life, long before Blacks ever were. This slavery was even hereditary. White children born to White slaves were enslaved too."

"Before British slavers traveled to Africa's western coast to buy Black slaves from African chieftains, they sold their own White working class kindred ("the surplus poor" as they were known) from the streets and towns of England, into slavery. Tens of thousands of these White slaves were kidnapped children. In fact the very origin of the word kidnapped is kid-nabbed, the stealing of White children for enslavement.

According to the English Dictionary of the Underworld, under the heading kidnapper is the following definition: "A stealer of human beings, esp. of children; originally for exportation to the plantations of North America."

The center of the trade in child-slaves was in the port cities of Britain and Scotland:

"Press gangs in the hire of local merchants roamed the streets, seizing 'by force such boys as seemed proper subjects for the slave trade.' Children were driven in flocks through the town and confined for shipment in barns...So flagrant was the practice that people in the countryside about Aberdeen avoided bringing children into the city for fear they might be stolen; and so widespread was the collusion of merchants, shippers, suppliers and even magistrates that the man who exposed it was forced to recant and run out of town." (Van der Zee, Bound Over, p. 210)."

Link

"The Quoke Walker case in Massachusetts 1773 ruled that; slavery contrary to the state Constitution was applied equally to Blacks and Whites in Massachusetts."

"George Downing wrote a letter to the honorable John Winthrop Colonial Governor of Massachusetts in 1645, "planters who want to make a fortune in the West Indies must procure white slave labor out of England if they wanted to succeed." 

profile.ak.fbcdn.net
 
2012-11-30 06:13:50 PM  
"In an 80 year period in the 18th century 1.25 million slaves were taken from Africa by over 3000 French ships, and sold largely in the Caribbean islands. By 1789 30-50% of all French trade was with its colonies, with 12% of the French workforce making a living in trades connected with slavery."

Link


www.enchantedlearning.com
 
2012-11-30 06:14:32 PM  

hasty ambush: Gunny Highway: Coco LaFemme: What exactly is Southern heritage? The South is part of the USA, so why not just say American heritage? I'm from Chicago, my boyfriend is from Manhattan, and I've never heard anyone talk about their "Northern" heritage. I'm an American; I don't define myself by what chunk of the country I'm from. I don't go around calling myself a Midwesterner.

Northern heritage? Child labor and discrimination.

/or something

Actually the correct term was indentured servitude:

Link

"When White servitude is acknowledged as having existed in America, it is almost always termed as temporary "indentured servitude" or part of the convict trade, which, after the Revolution of 1776, centered on Australia instead of America. The "convicts" transported to America under the 1723 Waltham Act, perhaps numbered 100,000."

"The indentured servants who served a tidy little period of 4 to 7 years polishing the master's silver and china and then taking their place in colonial high society, were a minuscule fraction of the great unsung hundreds of thousands of White slaves who were worked to death in this country from the early l7th century onward."

"Up to one-half of all the arrivals in the American colonies were Whites slaves and they were America's first slaves. These Whites were slaves for life, long before Blacks ever were. This slavery was even hereditary. White children born to White slaves were enslaved too."

"Before British slavers traveled to Africa's western coast to buy Black slaves from African chieftains, they sold their own White working class kindred ("the surplus poor" as they were known) from the streets and towns of England, into slavery. Tens of thousands of these White slaves were kidnapped children. In fact the very origin of the word kidnapped is kid-nabbed, the stealing of White children for enslavement.

According to the English Dictionary of the Underworld, under the heading kidnapper is the following definition: "A stealer of human be ...


I was referencing the Rhode Island System and hiring discriminating against various immigrant group but sure add indentured servitude to the list.
 
2012-11-30 06:18:49 PM  
."The first recorded trader sold 20 Africans to the colony of Virginia in North America in 1619, but the Dutch trade only really took off in response to labour shortage in the newly conquered sugar plantations of Northern Brazil in 1630."

"When the final abolition of the trade and institution of slavery formally occurred in 1863, Dutch agents had brought 540,000 Africans to the Americas and cast the spectre of slavery east, from the Cape of Good Hope to the Indonesian archipelago."

Link

ogaegreece.com
 
2012-11-30 06:25:33 PM  
"Republic of Benin/ Kingdom of Danhomé directly participated in the Transatlantic Slave Trade through the port of Whydah or Ouidah, the capital of Savi and it became very prosperous. The Kingdom reached its peak in the 19th century under King Guézo (1818-1858)"

Link

animalonstamps.files.wordpress.com
 
2012-11-30 07:38:56 PM  

CheekyMonkey: I would submit that the most recent shift for the confederate flag occurred in the 1950s and 1960s, when it was adopted as a symbol by anti-civil-rights protesters. As such, it took on a more overtly racist tone than it had in the late 1800s, when it was a symbol of secession.


Interestingly enough, not everyone has the same sense of history - be that uneducated or whatever. While many folks here have expressed derision of the Confederate flag as a symbol of treason and racism others see it differently. Others see it as a symbol of all of the good things about the South - and criticize all you want Yankees, there are some good things about the South,. They also see it as a sign of independence from the federal government and what is our country about if it wasn't declaring independence from an oppressive government?

I also would like to point out that the most racist parts of the United States are not in the South, but rather they are in the North. You see, in the South whites and blacks lived together and while there were - and even today still are - racists in the South they don't even come close to the racists in the North.

Anyone who thinks the North was a bastion of racial tolerance is deluded and I never actually saw racism until I moved to the North. And today one of the greatest examples of bigotry is you Farkers who look down upon anyone from Florida or Texas or Louisiana or Alabama or Georgia and chastise them for being racist inbred ignoramuses but you are blind to your own bigotry.

And let's be real about this - you are blind. You hate people for where they were born and that is nothing but bigotry. There's no other word for it. There is nothing inherently different about people born in the South and if you believe there is then that is bigotry and it makes you hypocrites.

So shut the fark up for a few minutes and think before you speak.
 
2012-11-30 07:40:49 PM  
This is the same old fight, no different than republican vs. democrat or atheist vs. christian. Most people are not going to convince anyone else of anything, its just going to be a lot of name calling and wasted time. However, I love those two things.

So stop being so ignorant of how much hate, intolerance and death your disgusting flag represents and choose something to represent southern heritage that is more inclusive and not so repellant.

Have a nice day.
 
2012-11-30 07:51:57 PM  
hasty ambush:

You left Denmark, Spain, and Portugal off your list.
 
2012-11-30 08:01:20 PM  

hasty ambush: ."The first recorded trader sold 20 Africans to the colony of Virginia in North America in 1619, but the Dutch trade only really took off in response to labour shortage in the newly conquered sugar plantations of Northern Brazil in 1630."

"When the final abolition of the trade and institution of slavery formally occurred in 1863, Dutch agents had brought 540,000 Africans to the Americas and cast the spectre of slavery east, from the Cape of Good Hope to the Indonesian archipelago."

Link

[ogaegreece.com image 599x338]


Most disappointing part of my heritage.
 
2012-11-30 08:31:03 PM  
I saw a license plate - state issued (Georgia), not like a novelty one - the other day that had the confederate flag on it. I was not that surprised though lol
 
2012-11-30 09:14:02 PM  

kronicfeld: FlashHarry: "southern heritage," my ass. it's a symbol of slavery and treason, nothing more.

You shouldn't even have to reach the "slavery" element, since that just opens the door to the argument that there was more to southern culture than slavery, which is of course true. The fact that it is the flag of a treasonous, secessionist armed insurrection should be enough to condemn it.


After the Presidential election of 1876, the North no longer had the moral authority to accuse the South of treason. Deal with it.
 
2012-11-30 09:25:18 PM  
 
2012-11-30 10:27:33 PM  
www.culturebully.com

There IS good country music, and often that symbol is about southern pride not racism.
 
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