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(Yahoo)   Country singer Trace Adkins says he didn't mean anything by his using a Confederate flag earpiece at the Rockefeller Center tree lighting ceremony, noting that his swastika earpiece was in his other pair of pants   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 506
    More: Stupid, Trace Adkins, Rockefeller Center, USO, hip-huggers, Lacunar amnesia, brightness, pairs  
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8165 clicks; posted to Main » on 30 Nov 2012 at 11:15 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-30 03:16:11 PM  

Lollipop165: Coco LaFemme: What exactly is Southern heritage? The South is part of the USA, so why not just say American heritage? I'm from Chicago, my boyfriend is from Manhattan, and I've never heard anyone talk about their "Northern" heritage. I'm an American; I don't define myself by what chunk of the country I'm from. I don't go around calling myself a Midwesterner.

I actually disagree with that. I consider myself more a New Yorker than an American; if only for the fact that America is so damn diverse geographically and culturally that I have far more in common with someone from, say, Brooklyn than I will from someone from Salt Lake City or rural Kansas.

I think it is far more of an identifier.

Although you'd think if say, someone was proud to be, say, from Alabama, they'd just fly the Alabama flag.


Its also a matter of distance... When I'm out of the country, I'm just an American. When I'm in the US, I'm a Minnesotan or a Midwesterner. In Minnesota I identify by city. Etc., etc.

If I happen to be in Australia and mention my home town (or possibly even my home state), nobody will have heard of it, so its a useless identification.
 
2012-11-30 03:17:25 PM  

jshine: CheekyMonkey: Digital Communist: How dare people* be proud of their heritage!

*people I was taught not to like

I'm proud of my German heritage. You don't see me flying the Nazi flag, though, because I'm not proud of that particular period in Germany's history. This is a either a distinction lost on the tards who fly the confederate flag, or they are proud of treason and racism that the confederate flag represents.

What treasonous slave-owners might look like:

[americansforprosperity.org image 600x300]


It isn't treason if you win, but yes, I won't deny that this country was founded by a bunch of rich, white slave-owners.
 
2012-11-30 03:18:16 PM  

This text is now purple: jshine: kronicfeld: The fact that it is the flag of a treasonous, secessionist armed insurrection should be enough to condemn it.

Isn't the US as a whole based on a treasonous, secessionist armed insurrection? Our flag should be:

[upload.wikimedia.org image 800x400]

The irony is that flag supports the American notion that they were not citizens in the eyes of British law.

The flag of the United Kingdom is made up of component parts of the flags of England, Scotland, and Ireland. There is no American component to the Union Jack.


Yes, yes, it was a colony, but Britain certainly considered the colonists to be subjects.
 
2012-11-30 03:19:31 PM  
Khellendros Smartest
Funniest
2012-11-30 03:15:09 PM


Doom MD: Internet tough guy patrolling the South for Confederate flag bearers. Sounds legit.

Nice exaggeration. I don't "patrol", but I do ask about it when I see it. And how did this turn into an Internet Toughguy discussion? Debating politics is suddenly an ITG issue? WTF? Do you not discuss politics, culture, or academic subjects with people outside of your immediate social circle?




It's a common accusation here from pathetic little farks when they're desperate for something to say. When you're a big sissy, everyone seems like a "tough guy" in comparison.
 
2012-11-30 03:20:50 PM  
I hate country music. But let's be honest. LA and NYC style pop music isn't exactly much better.

Most of the country isn't a cultural and intellectual power houses so being smug based on geographical musical tastes is really grasping for straws.
 
2012-11-30 03:21:12 PM  

StickyBunBandit: I fly a pirate flag in front of my house,what does that mean?


Contributing to Global Warming?
 
2012-11-30 03:25:39 PM  

DeathCipris: StickyBunBandit: I fly a pirate flag in front of my house,what does that mean?

Contributing to Global Warming?


I think you've got that backwards.
 
2012-11-30 03:26:06 PM  
All these posts.

INTENT is the critical componant of offensive symbol usage. If there is no intent to offend, then the symbol usage is not offensive. If a history book on the evils of slavery has a confederate flag on it, no one would consider that to be offensive, because that is clearly not the intent. No one accuses the History channel of being racist or anti-semetic no matter how many times they show swastikas and Nazi symbols. Becasue that is clearly not the intent.

Certainly, people can choose to TAKE offense when they see a symbol. But that is on them, and no one else is responsible for that.

Use of symbols is an inherently meaningful act. The user of the symbol is the one who gets to decide what they mean when they use that symbol.
 
2012-11-30 03:27:31 PM  

Khellendros: Doom MD: Internet tough guy patrolling the South for Confederate flag bearers. Sounds legit.

Nice exaggeration. I don't "patrol", but I do ask about it when I see it. And how did this turn into an Internet Toughguy discussion? Debating politics is suddenly an ITG issue? WTF? Do you not discuss politics, culture, or academic subjects with people outside of your immediate social circle?


Your musings over your extensive experience "challenging" people for brandishing the Confederate flag alongside an implicit condescending tone makes it apparent why such people would get defensive with you.
 
2012-11-30 03:27:51 PM  

doubled99: What I also said is that the symbol has real historical meaning, and it's not cultural. It's a well-established and documented symbol of a failed insurrection, and not appropriate to fly in the country in which the secession was attempted. It's a legally defined flag of failure and treason. And while it is within their rights to fly it on their private property (a right created and defended by the country they spit on), it deserves ridicule, scorn, and every ounce of shame that can be thrown at it.



Some people feel offended by it, so it's offensive.
The ones who fly it feel it means something different. So it does. For them.

The swastika once meant something completely different. Symbols change with perception.


While that's true, the latest meaning requires something new - a global event, a shift in thought, or a new social movement to change it. The Confederate flag has remained as it was (historically and socially) since the late 1800s. The swastika didn't just one day become something new. The Third Reich turned it into something else and used it in war and genocide. The rebel flag is still based on the same events, the same ideas, and the same regional politics and people as when it was used as a battle standard and an official symbol of the Confederate States of America. I've seen nothing - including in the philosophies used to defend it today - that shows a shift in what it represents. A vague pseudo-cultural wash, perhaps, but nothing of substance. It's still the flag of secessionists.
 
2012-11-30 03:31:28 PM  

TheHappTroll: DeathCipris: StickyBunBandit: I fly a pirate flag in front of my house,what does that mean?

Contributing to Global Warming?

I think you've got that backwards.


Bah!
assets.diylol.com
 
2012-11-30 03:31:40 PM  

Doom MD: Khellendros: Doom MD: Internet tough guy patrolling the South for Confederate flag bearers. Sounds legit.

Nice exaggeration. I don't "patrol", but I do ask about it when I see it. And how did this turn into an Internet Toughguy discussion? Debating politics is suddenly an ITG issue? WTF? Do you not discuss politics, culture, or academic subjects with people outside of your immediate social circle?

Your musings over your extensive experience "challenging" people for brandishing the Confederate flag alongside an implicit condescending tone makes it apparent why such people would get defensive with you.


Tone is inferred by the reader. That comes from you, not me.

And questioning or challenging people for flying that flag and engaging in strong political and historical debates isn't being an ITG. It's being an educated adult that challenges things and asks others to defend their assertions. Ignorance isn't a virtue.
 
2012-11-30 03:37:29 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: All these posts.

INTENT is the critical componant of offensive symbol usage. If there is no intent to offend, then the symbol usage is not offensive. If a history book on the evils of slavery has a confederate flag on it, no one would consider that to be offensive, because that is clearly not the intent. No one accuses the History channel of being racist or anti-semetic no matter how many times they show swastikas and Nazi symbols. Becasue that is clearly not the intent.

Certainly, people can choose to TAKE offense when they see a symbol. But that is on them, and no one else is responsible for that.

Use of symbols is an inherently meaningful act. The user of the symbol is the one who gets to decide what they mean when they use that symbol.


The Coalition for Reason is sparse in this thread. It is all about intent.

Time for another Good Idea, Bad Idea...
Good Idea: Hanging a NSDAP Flag in your museum exhibit on the dictators of WWII.
Bad Idea: Hanging a NSDAP Flag behind you during a speech.
 
2012-11-30 03:38:49 PM  

SkunkWerks: mcwehrle: I think you may have misunderstood my intent.

No, I really didn't.

Again, if it's not a big deal to have, then it isn't a big deal not to have. And someone does take it seriously, he does.

So the argument that people just need to "chill out" pretty much falls apart right there. The guy wore it in his ear for the same reason Janet Jackson slipped us a boob on the sly during the Superbowl.

[4.bp.blogspot.com image 600x431]

Nuff said.


cool. have a nice day.
 
2012-11-30 03:38:57 PM  

jshine: When I'm out of the country, I'm just an American. When I'm in the US, I'm a Minnesotan or a Midwesterner. In Minnesota I identify by city. Etc., etc.


Unless you are a Texan, of course. When travelling abroad, Texans still self-identify as Texans.

And for whatever reason, most people internationally know what that is.

/yes, yes, even before GW
 
2012-11-30 03:39:59 PM  

Khellendros: Doom MD: Khellendros: Doom MD: Internet tough guy patrolling the South for Confederate flag bearers. Sounds legit.

Nice exaggeration. I don't "patrol", but I do ask about it when I see it. And how did this turn into an Internet Toughguy discussion? Debating politics is suddenly an ITG issue? WTF? Do you not discuss politics, culture, or academic subjects with people outside of your immediate social circle?

Your musings over your extensive experience "challenging" people for brandishing the Confederate flag alongside an implicit condescending tone makes it apparent why such people would get defensive with you.

Tone is inferred by the reader. That comes from you, not me.

And questioning or challenging people for flying that flag and engaging in strong political and historical debates isn't being an ITG. It's being an educated adult that challenges things and asks others to defend their assertions. Ignorance isn't a virtue.


You're right, there's absolutely no condescension in trying to authoritively define the meaning of something pertaining to a large swath of people that you've made great strides in setting yourself apart from.
 
2012-11-30 03:40:50 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: jshine: When I'm out of the country, I'm just an American. When I'm in the US, I'm a Minnesotan or a Midwesterner. In Minnesota I identify by city. Etc., etc.

Unless you are a Texan, of course. When travelling abroad, Texans still self-identify as Texans.

And for whatever reason, most people internationally know what that is.

/yes, yes, even before GW


Not all of us do. But yes, sadly, it's very common.
 
2012-11-30 03:41:27 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: jshine: When I'm out of the country, I'm just an American. When I'm in the US, I'm a Minnesotan or a Midwesterner. In Minnesota I identify by city. Etc., etc.

Unless you are a Texan, of course. When travelling abroad, Texans still self-identify as Texans.

And for whatever reason, most people internationally know what that is.

/yes, yes, even before GW


When Im in the US, I'm an American. When I'm traveling abroad, I'm Canadian.
 
2012-11-30 03:41:34 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: jshine: When I'm out of the country, I'm just an American. When I'm in the US, I'm a Minnesotan or a Midwesterner. In Minnesota I identify by city. Etc., etc.

Unless you are a Texan, of course. When travelling abroad, Texans still self-identify as Texans.

And for whatever reason, most people internationally know what that is.

/yes, yes, even before GW


I think it is a "former largest state in America" thing combined with old western movies. Even foreigners know who John Wayne and Clint Eastwood are.
 
2012-11-30 03:46:03 PM  

Doom MD: You're right, there's absolutely no condescension in trying to authoritively define the meaning of something pertaining to a large swath of people that you've made great strides in setting yourself apart from.


I don't need to define it. History did that pretty well. A small, but vocal group is trying to revise that definition but maintain the rebellious history, and constantly display the symbol a treasonous act that nearly tore the country apart. That's not condescension. That's pointing out the obvious.
 
2012-11-30 03:46:53 PM  

Doom MD: Khellendros: craig328: Khellendros: Are you high? Nearly every southerner that flies the rebel flag, sticks it on their car, or wears it on their clothes is happy to talk to you about why. At great length. They have little internal consistency as to the reason why, and their historical accuracy is somewhere on the level of Beka textbooks, but they do have a lot to say about it. After living in Virginia for eleven years, spending months of time with family in Georgia, the Carolinas, and living in Oklahoma and Texas for most of the last 20 years, I can tell you from experience that rebel fliers love talking openly about their "culture", and why they fly that flag.

Not high but it's apparent you're having trouble with the whole "wide brush" approach to making a point. Your entire posit is redolent with suggested self-superior attitude (with references to broad based ignorance in comparison to your more enlightened knowledge base, for instance) and, as such, you appear incapable of anything other than opinion based on bias. Residing in Virginia, Texas and Oklahoma hardly equates to knowing either jack or shiat about the south and visiting relatives in Atlanta and Myrtle Beach wouldn't seem to be a ringing endorsement of authenticity. However, I could be just as guilty as you about conclusions based on assumptions.

What I did say was that I'm from the south, my family was old Florida back when all of the states' population would have fit into the Orange Bowl today. An old relative on my father's side rode with the 1st Florida cavalry and fought at Shiloh. Others lived in coastal North Carolina and lost everything they had. And no, they weren't the local wealthy slave-owner type...they were just regular maritime mercantile who had all their property "commandeered" by the local army commandant for "emergency use" that was promptly sold to a carpetbagger and taken somewhere up north. Point is: I'm from the south, have lived here most of my life and, as opposed to being "high", I do ac ...

Internet tough guy patrolling the South for Confederate flag bearers. Sounds legit.


Pretty much. This is why I've pretty much quit posting on Fark because of the sheer number of claims like his.

I mean, from his description I'm picturing Khellendros setting forth on his journey of policing complete strangers and, upon seeing a confederate flag, immediately engaging them in what he hopes passes as polite and interested conversation (which, he's sure, they're entirely too dull to recognize as anything else) and commence quizzing the helpless simple yokel about the symbol he displays and why. As though he's conducting a survey or something. Naturally, the hapless denizen whose path Khellendros has graciously and benevolently crossed has nothing better to do with their day than to entertain this clearly sophisticated and superior being and dumbly answer his witty and incisive inquests. Khellendros then proceeds to ask such benign and innocent questions (to a complete stranger mind you) like "why do you wear that symbol" and they, naturally, respond with "yee haw! The South will rise ag'in!" thus confirming validating Khellendros' original theory and cementing his supreme and unassailable opinions.

Either that or he's an imbecile who thinks that everyone on the internet to whom he makes these ridiculous claims is more gullible and stupid than he and they will surely relent in their erroneous and ill-considered experience and grant his fallacies as fact. Because hey, when engaging in thrilling matches of verbal derring-do on the intarwebz tubez, that's the way things always turn out in Khellendros' mind.

It's cute as all get out too, bless his heart.
 
2012-11-30 03:47:46 PM  
Khellendros:: bullshiat

You're a lying liar, you lying douchebag.
 
2012-11-30 03:48:38 PM  

ChuDogg: When Im in the US, I'm an American. When I'm traveling abroad, I'm Canadian.


I usually save that excuse for when I do something particularly idiotic or embarrassing.
 
2012-11-30 03:51:05 PM  

Khellendros: doubled99: What I also said is that the symbol has real historical meaning, and it's not cultural. It's a well-established and documented symbol of a failed insurrection, and not appropriate to fly in the country in which the secession was attempted. It's a legally defined flag of failure and treason. And while it is within their rights to fly it on their private property (a right created and defended by the country they spit on), it deserves ridicule, scorn, and every ounce of shame that can be thrown at it.



Some people feel offended by it, so it's offensive.
The ones who fly it feel it means something different. So it does. For them.

The swastika once meant something completely different. Symbols change with perception.

While that's true, the latest meaning requires something new - a global event, a shift in thought, or a new social movement to change it. The Confederate flag has remained as it was (historically and socially) since the late 1800s. The swastika didn't just one day become something new. The Third Reich turned it into something else and used it in war and genocide. The rebel flag is still based on the same events, the same ideas, and the same regional politics and people as when it was used as a battle standard and an official symbol of the Confederate States of America. I've seen nothing - including in the philosophies used to defend it today - that shows a shift in what it represents. A vague pseudo-cultural wash, perhaps, but nothing of substance. It's still the flag of secessionists.


I would disagree. The rebirth of the KKK in the 1920s through the 50s strongly indentified with America and used the American flag extensively as their symbol. The rebirth was also centered heavily in Illinois and other midwest and even Northeast states in addition to the South.

It wasn't until the modern incarnation of the KKK as a bizarre collection of inbred rednecks (remember the original was the mostly educated business and government leaders) in the 80s and 90s that the KKK became more of a neo-seccessionist movement as use the confederate flag more extensively as their symbol of choice. By that time, the Dukes of Hazard and other cultural Southern use of the confederate flag was already wide spread throughout the South and north alike and even into foreign countries like europe.

So if you look in to it more I think you would find a more non-linear progression of the flag from the Civil War to modern usage.

That said, the South still sucks.
 
2012-11-30 03:51:24 PM  

GanjSmokr: How dare people make new accounts here!!! Anyone who matters already has an account and anyone with an account less than a year old is obviously just a troll.


his name is "holocaust agnostic" and his Boobies was "Its no more offensive than the US flag." that smells like troll to me.
 
2012-11-30 03:55:44 PM  

FlashHarry: Boobies was "Its no more offensive than the US flag." that smells like troll to me.


Well, the US flag is the symbol of a country that was founded through violence by treasonous slave-owners with slavery written into its Constitution. There is a valid point there.
 
2012-11-30 03:56:13 PM  

BojanglesPaladin: Texans still self-identify as Texans.


The fark I do.
 
2012-11-30 03:58:32 PM  

FlashHarry: GanjSmokr: How dare people make new accounts here!!! Anyone who matters already has an account and anyone with an account less than a year old is obviously just a troll.

his name is "holocaust agnostic" and his Boobies was "Its no more offensive than the US flag." that smells like troll to me.


So if you're just going by their name and the content of their post as you are implying here, why add the date the account was created on that post? I assumed you were trying to say that the date the account was created actually meant something to you here. My apologies if you just put it in there for fun, but I don't think that's why you did it.
 
2012-11-30 03:58:55 PM  

craig328: I mean, from his description I'm picturing Khellendros setting forth on his journey of policing complete strangers and, upon seeing a confederate flag, immediately engaging them in what he hopes passes as polite and interested conversation (which, he's sure, they're entirely too dull to recognize as anything else) and commence quizzing the helpless simple yokel about the symbol he displays and why. As though he's conducting a survey or something. Naturally, the hapless denizen whose path Khellendros has graciously and benevolently crossed has nothing better to do with their day than to entertain this clearly sophisticated and superior being and dumbly answer his witty and incisive inquests. Khellendros then proceeds to ask such benign and innocent questions (to a complete stranger mind you) like "why do you wear that symbol" and they, naturally, respond with "yee haw! The South will rise ag'in!" thus confirming validating Khellendros' original theory and cementing his supreme and unassailable opinions.


Note how every part of that came from your exaggeration and self-created impressions, and not from my words. Read what I wrote in all of those posts above. Think about it as a rational human being, then consider if you want to respond.

I engage people in debate often. I live around lots of people who display the rebel flag, and have most of my life. I've had many, many conversations, debate, arguments, and challenging discussions with these people (most of whom I didn't know beforehand) about that flag, and why they fly it. The results have been similar in most cases, sadly. I would estimate I've had somewhere between 25 and 50 of these discussions that lasted at least half an hour or more. The arguments they use are poorly researched, incomplete, and often based on incorrect facts. But they do like to defend it at length.

Everything else you wrote came from your little mind. Exaggerations, straw men, and outright bullshiat. Is your world that small? Or did you just realize how silly your words are, and now you have to defend them with bluster and intellectual vomit?
 
2012-11-30 04:00:24 PM  

armypilot: Khellendros:: bullshiat

You're a lying liar, you lying douchebag.


I'm glad you had something useful and fulfilling to add to the conversation. Anything else? Perhaps an opinion on Kafka?
 
2012-11-30 04:01:24 PM  

FlashHarry: Holocaust Agnostic: FlashHarry: "southern heritage," my ass. it's a symbol of slavery and treason, nothing more.

Its no more offensive than the US flag.

Holocaust Agnostic
Account created: 2012-09-04 23:06:32

mmm, yeah. bye!


I had to update. my old handle was too offensive.
 
2012-11-30 04:03:50 PM  

Khellendros: doubled99: What I also said is that the symbol has real historical meaning, and it's not cultural. It's a well-established and documented symbol of a failed insurrection, and not appropriate to fly in the country in which the secession was attempted. It's a legally defined flag of failure and treason. And while it is within their rights to fly it on their private property (a right created and defended by the country they spit on), it deserves ridicule, scorn, and every ounce of shame that can be thrown at it.



Some people feel offended by it, so it's offensive.
The ones who fly it feel it means something different. So it does. For them.

The swastika once meant something completely different. Symbols change with perception.

While that's true, the latest meaning requires something new - a global event, a shift in thought, or a new social movement to change it. The Confederate flag has remained as it was (historically and socially) since the late 1800s. The swastika didn't just one day become something new. The Third Reich turned it into something else and used it in war and genocide. The rebel flag is still based on the same events, the same ideas, and the same regional politics and people as when it was used as a battle standard and an official symbol of the Confederate States of America. I've seen nothing - including in the philosophies used to defend it today - that shows a shift in what it represents. A vague pseudo-cultural wash, perhaps, but nothing of substance. It's still the flag of secessionists.


I would submit that the most recent shift for the confederate flag occurred in the 1950s and 1960s, when it was adopted as a symbol by anti-civil-rights protesters. As such, it took on a more overtly racist tone than it had in the late 1800s, when it was a symbol of secession.
 
2012-11-30 04:07:00 PM  

jshine: FlashHarry: Boobies was "Its no more offensive than the US flag." that smells like troll to me.

Well, the US flag is the symbol of a country that was founded through violence by treasonous slave-owners with slavery written into its Constitution. There is a valid point there.


You know what would be refreshing in a debate like this? Encountering someone who knew WHY slavery was written into the Constitution at the time.

I bet it had nothing to do with how the government acquired revenue and that minus Virginia, Georgia, North and South Carolina that the rebellion had exactly zero chance of success and exceptionally little funding. It's entirely coincidental that the post revolution government acquired revenue pretty much solely from import and export duties and tariffs and that the products that generated such monies were produced in those states (namely cotton, jute, tobacco, rice, and indigo) and that such production was entirely dependent upon a labor force that was indentured. Or that while the south was pretty much hard wired to slavery to provide a labor force, the north went with industrialism where "company store", wage slavery and exploitation of Irish, Italians, Germans and pretty much every other immigrant was a-ok...because they weren't slaves and all.

Ah well. This is Fark. Not exactly the wellspring of informed discourse. May as well wish for a pony while we're at it.
 
2012-11-30 04:07:10 PM  

Khellendros: craig328: I mean, from his description I'm picturing Khellendros setting forth on his journey of policing complete strangers and, upon seeing a confederate flag, immediately engaging them in what he hopes passes as polite and interested conversation (which, he's sure, they're entirely too dull to recognize as anything else) and commence quizzing the helpless simple yokel about the symbol he displays and why. As though he's conducting a survey or something. Naturally, the hapless denizen whose path Khellendros has graciously and benevolently crossed has nothing better to do with their day than to entertain this clearly sophisticated and superior being and dumbly answer his witty and incisive inquests. Khellendros then proceeds to ask such benign and innocent questions (to a complete stranger mind you) like "why do you wear that symbol" and they, naturally, respond with "yee haw! The South will rise ag'in!" thus confirming validating Khellendros' original theory and cementing his supreme and unassailable opinions.

Note how every part of that came from your exaggeration and self-created impressions, and not from my words. Read what I wrote in all of those posts above. Think about it as a rational human being, then consider if you want to respond.

I engage people in debate often. I live around lots of people who display the rebel flag, and have most of my life. I've had many, many conversations, debate, arguments, and challenging discussions with these people (most of whom I didn't know beforehand) about that flag, and why they fly it. The results have been similar in most cases, sadly. I would estimate I've had somewhere between 25 and 50 of these discussions that lasted at least half an hour or more. The arguments they use are poorly researched, incomplete, and often based on incorrect facts. But they do like to defend it at length.

Everything else you wrote came from your little mind. Exaggerations, straw men, and outright bullshiat. Is your world that small? Or d ...


I'd throw a sheet over my head and shake a noose around if it'd get you to stop. You sound absolutely exhausting to have to deal with.
 
2012-11-30 04:07:31 PM  

Khellendros: craig328: Khellendros: Are you high? Nearly every southerner that flies the rebel flag, sticks it on their car, or wears it on their clothes is happy to talk to you about why. At great length. They have little internal consistency as to the reason why, and their historical accuracy is somewhere on the level of Beka textbooks, but they do have a lot to say about it. After living in Virginia for eleven years, spending months of time with family in Georgia, the Carolinas, and living in Oklahoma and Texas for most of the last 20 years, I can tell you from experience that rebel fliers love talking openly about their "culture", and why they fly that flag.

Not high but it's apparent you're having trouble with the whole "wide brush" approach to making a point. Your entire posit is redolent with suggested self-superior attitude (with references to broad based ignorance in comparison to your more enlightened knowledge base, for instance) and, as such, you appear incapable of anything other than opinion based on bias. Residing in Virginia, Texas and Oklahoma hardly equates to knowing either jack or shiat about the south and visiting relatives in Atlanta and Myrtle Beach wouldn't seem to be a ringing endorsement of authenticity. However, I could be just as guilty as you about conclusions based on assumptions.

What I did say was that I'm from the south, my family was old Florida back when all of the states' population would have fit into the Orange Bowl today. An old relative on my father's side rode with the 1st Florida cavalry and fought at Shiloh. Others lived in coastal North Carolina and lost everything they had. And no, they weren't the local wealthy slave-owner type...they were just regular maritime mercantile who had all their property "commandeered" by the local army commandant for "emergency use" that was promptly sold to a carpetbagger and taken somewhere up north. Point is: I'm from the south, have lived here most of my life and, as opposed to being "high", ...


Self righteous douche, I don't own a confederate flag but i think i'm going to get one just because it appears to illuminate people like you. Kinda like jizz under a black light.

"Hey, what the hell do you mean by flying that flag?"
"It bothers people like you, and that makes me happy."
 
2012-11-30 04:08:10 PM  
The only time the Confederate Flag isn't racist is when it's on the roof of an orange, 1969 Dodge Charger.
 
2012-11-30 04:08:14 PM  

Holocaust Agnostic: FlashHarry: Holocaust Agnostic: FlashHarry: "southern heritage," my ass. it's a symbol of slavery and treason, nothing more.

Its no more offensive than the US flag.

Holocaust Agnostic
Account created: 2012-09-04 23:06:32

mmm, yeah. bye!

I had to update. my old handle was too offensive.


I just made a new handle because I'm bored with this one. But I've noted that in my alt's profile because I don't want to have to point that out to people in the coming weeks after I start using the new one.
 
2012-11-30 04:08:48 PM  

CheekyMonkey: I would submit that the most recent shift for the confederate flag occurred in the 1950s and 1960s, when it was adopted as a symbol by anti-civil-rights protesters. As such, it took on a more overtly racist tone than it had in the late 1800s, when it was a symbol of secession.


But does that not give it the same roots? The same population pushing the same social and cultural ideals, just applying it to the new issue of the day? ChuDogg appears to have roughly the same idea in his post above as you. It's not like there was a large change in the "party line" so to say, just a new reason to bring the same ideas forward.

Something to think on, certainly. But I'm not seeing how it reformed in any useful way. And certainly not in a positive direction. In fact, I'd argue its use got far worse over time, shedding even the good sides of what it was trying to convey in Civil War times.
 
2012-11-30 04:11:23 PM  

Doom MD: I'd throw a sheet over my head and shake a noose around if it'd get you to stop. You sound absolutely exhausting to have to deal with.


Why? Because you can't read someone's argument and actually debate it? Instead, you have to take it, exaggerate it into an insane straw man, and pat yourself on the back. Move on, dude. Just accept the fact I wasn't saying what your little mind jumped to.
 
2012-11-30 04:12:44 PM  

craig328: jshine: FlashHarry: Boobies was "Its no more offensive than the US flag." that smells like troll to me.

Well, the US flag is the symbol of a country that was founded through violence by treasonous slave-owners with slavery written into its Constitution. There is a valid point there.

You know what would be refreshing in a debate like this? Encountering someone who knew WHY slavery was written into the Constitution at the time.

I bet it had nothing to do with how the government acquired revenue and that minus Virginia, Georgia, North and South Carolina that the rebellion had exactly zero chance of success and exceptionally little funding. It's entirely coincidental that the post revolution government acquired revenue pretty much solely from import and export duties and tariffs and that the products that generated such monies were produced in those states (namely cotton, jute, tobacco, rice, and indigo) and that such production was entirely dependent upon a labor force that was indentured. Or that while the south was pretty much hard wired to slavery to provide a labor force, the north went with industrialism where "company store", wage slavery and exploitation of Irish, Italians, Germans and pretty much every other immigrant was a-ok...because they weren't slaves and all.

Ah well. This is Fark. Not exactly the wellspring of informed discourse. May as well wish for a pony while we're at it.



Was there some kind of point in all that?
 
2012-11-30 04:13:23 PM  
I would like to see some Non-American Farkers weigh in as to how this little "culture clash between two factions that settled this debate 150 years ago" appears from the outside.

It's a little embarrassing to see some (not all) of the comments, on both sides of the mason-dixon, and the ignorance and resentment they demonstrate.
 
2012-11-30 04:13:39 PM  

ZodiacMan: The only time the Confederate Flag isn't racist is when it's on the roof of an orange, 1969 Dodge Charger.


Symbols can be inherently racist, lol
 
2012-11-30 04:17:57 PM  

ZodiacMan: The only time the Confederate Flag isn't racist is when it's on the roof of an orange, 1969 Dodge Charger.


I guess that explains why the only time I ever saw a Confederate flag on a car (in real life) was when I lived in PA - it was the pizza delivery guy's car.
 
2012-11-30 04:18:14 PM  

jshine: CheekyMonkey: Digital Communist: How dare people* be proud of their heritage!

*people I was taught not to like

I'm proud of my German heritage. You don't see me flying the Nazi flag, though, because I'm not proud of that particular period in Germany's history. This is a either a distinction lost on the tards who fly the confederate flag, or they are proud of treason and racism that the confederate flag represents.

What treasonous slave-owners might look like:

[americansforprosperity.org image 600x300]


The difference being, they were treasonous for the cause of liberty, and confederates were treasonous for the cause of slavery. Oh...and the founding fathers won...the confederates lost. I'm sure the US founding fathers are viewed as traitors from the perspective of the British, just as confederates are viewed as traitors from the perspective of Americans.
 
2012-11-30 04:19:48 PM  

Khellendros: Note how every part of that came from your exaggeration and self-created impressions, and not from my words. Read what I wrote in all of those posts above. Think about it as a rational human being, then consider if you want to respond.

I engage people in debate often. I live around lots of people who display the rebel flag, and have most of my life. I've had many, many conversations, debate, arguments, and challenging discussions with these people (most of whom I didn't know beforehand) about that flag, and why they fly it. The results have been similar in most cases, sadly. I would estimate I've had somewhere between 25 and 50 of these discussions that lasted at least half an hour or more. The arguments they use are poorly researched, incomplete, and often based on incorrect facts. But they do like to defend it at length.

Everything else you wrote came from your little mind. Exaggerations, straw men, and outright bullshiat. Is your world that small? Or did you just realize how silly your words are, and now you have to defend them with bluster and intellectual vomit?



Nah, I'm good. Debating you on the basis of your fantasy life is ridiculous in the extreme. I'd rather play "I got yer nose" with an infant. Let's just go ahead and stick with your two best (and totally believable) assertions today and we can leave it wherever you like in Fantasyland. The entire first paragraph above and this one:

Nearly every southerner that flies the rebel flag, sticks it on their car, or wears it on their clothes is happy to talk to you about why. At great length.

I will be happy to correct one thing though: everything I wrote didn't come from imaginary (and apparently cataloged so you can count them...amazing that) interviews with stereotypical southern rednecks. It came from, you know, actually living here and being a part of the communities you claim you've so vigorously engaged in debate. I don't know what came over me, thinking that lifelong experience versus clearly fabricated claims of an interview campaign would be comparable in veracity. Silly me. My bad.

You get along now with your bad ole self. In fact, feel free to reach around and give yourself a smug pat on your back at vanquishing yet another (am I #51 now?) ignorant who foolishly crossed your path. Just ignore all the muffled and derisive snickers at your back as you depart. They just sound like that. They're really the oohs and ahs people involuntarily utter at your supreme debating skills. Surely by now you must either be used to it or have convinced yourself (likely through yet more exhaustive interviews/debates) that that's what it is.
 
2012-11-30 04:20:01 PM  

Khellendros: Doom MD: I'd throw a sheet over my head and shake a noose around if it'd get you to stop. You sound absolutely exhausting to have to deal with.

Why? Because you can't read someone's argument and actually debate it? Instead, you have to take it, exaggerate it into an insane straw man, and pat yourself on the back. Move on, dude. Just accept the fact I wasn't saying what your little mind jumped to.


Your argument is built on a foundation of fantasies and stereotypes. I can't argue with you regarding the hundreds of intense debates you had with one-toothed hill-billy rednecks in Fictionville, Alabama. You have the audacity to paint half of the nation with a pretty goddamn big brush and then state your conclusion about what a symbol means to them like it is a foregone conclusion (again, based on this ridiculous premise that you've surveyed some untold number of Southerners of all walks of life in any meaningfully statistically significant way). The only small mind in play is looking you in the mirror.
 
2012-11-30 04:22:35 PM  

Khellendros: CheekyMonkey: I would submit that the most recent shift for the confederate flag occurred in the 1950s and 1960s, when it was adopted as a symbol by anti-civil-rights protesters. As such, it took on a more overtly racist tone than it had in the late 1800s, when it was a symbol of secession.

But does that not give it the same roots? The same population pushing the same social and cultural ideals, just applying it to the new issue of the day? ChuDogg appears to have roughly the same idea in his post above as you. It's not like there was a large change in the "party line" so to say, just a new reason to bring the same ideas forward.

Something to think on, certainly. But I'm not seeing how it reformed in any useful way. And certainly not in a positive direction. In fact, I'd argue its use got far worse over time, shedding even the good sides of what it was trying to convey in Civil War times.


I think we generally agree. My reason for responding to your post was only that I don't agree that the symbolic meaning behind the confederate flag has remained unchanged since the late 1800s. I think it has, and that it became much more a symbol of racism during the civil rights era. I'd say the meaning has changed, and in a negative way.
 
2012-11-30 04:25:36 PM  
I've seen more compelling outrage in a Consumerist article.
 
2012-11-30 04:26:14 PM  

Happy Hours: ZodiacMan: The only time the Confederate Flag isn't racist is when it's on the roof of an orange, 1969 Dodge Charger.

I guess that explains why the only time I ever saw a Confederate flag on a car (in real life) was when I lived in PA - it was the pizza delivery guy's car.


Interesting. I've seen a bunch, almost always in the back windows of pickup trucks.
 
2012-11-30 04:28:17 PM  

Doom MD: Your argument is built on a foundation of fantasies and stereotypes. I can't argue with you regarding the hundreds of intense debates you had with one-toothed hill-billy rednecks in Fictionville, Alabama. You have the audacity to paint half of the nation with a pretty goddamn big brush and then state your conclusion about what a symbol means to them like it is a foregone conclusion (again, based on this ridiculous premise that you've surveyed some untold number of Southerners of all walks of life in any meaningfully statistically significant way). The only small mind in play is looking you in the mirror.


Once again, you list a bunch of things I didn't say. I didn't paint "half the nation". Those are your words. I characterized a group of people that display the rebel flag. And my conclusions on what the flag means to them were based on their words, not what I thought. And I didn't have hundreds of debates (not of any size, at least). I said 25 - 50. Again, READ.

Please, keep going. Maybe eventually you'll say something in reference to words I actually said. Until then, you're just shouting at a straw man like a fool. Debate is difficult - you actually have to address what's being said, not the fiction of what you want to believe the other person is saying.
 
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