Publikwerks: Holocaust Agnostic: The Holocaust is hardly the be all end all of nazi crimes.

OK, unless I missed where they killed millions of other civilians in some other thing, I would say it was.

The Russians would like a word with you.

FirstNationalBastard: rufus-t-firefly: [i48.photobucket.com image 425x425]

You know what the only thing offensive in that picture is?

Some cocksucking sons of biatches stole Bill Watterson's creation and used it on a whole line of stupid, retarded stickers like that.

And I'm sure our freedom-loving patriots in the south would just respect the right of someone to have such a sticker if it was on someone's vehicle. Nothing bad would happen to the vehicle at all.

The Mozambique flag must offend a lot of people it has a scary gun on it!

the_rev: [www.insideedition.com image 605x340]

Ah. There it is. This is what everyone's all butthurt about? Tapdancing Christ on a cracker...people will go to such great pains to find something to be offended about.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Seriously, I mean, I don't understand what the issue is. And if it IS an issue, well then Bubba Bruce and Coy are gonna be pissed they can't fly there suthin flag up here no more.

GAH. Stop inventing shiat to be pissed off about people.

The NAZIs killed thousands and thousands of Sinti and Roma. They abrogated their peace treaty with Russia. They euthanized their mental patients. They helped Franco during the Spanish Civil War. They banned syncopated music, they destroyed books and artwork. . .

Kraftwerk Orange: We did pretty well winning the Revolution to save all the yankees that had been captured (New York, Boston, Philly...)

That is the stupidest thing I've heard today. You'll get bites.

Onkel Buck: The Mozambique flag must offend a lot of people it has a scary gun on it!

That flag is so farking awesome.

hinten: The fact that country music has adopted this symbol speaks to the intellectual power that goes into that whole musical culture.

I agree. They should have chosen something more classy like a giant diamond encrusted dollar sign.

Publikwerks: Holocaust Agnostic: The Holocaust is hardly the be all end all of nazi crimes.

OK, unless I missed where they killed millions of other civilians in some other thing, I would say it was.

The 11 million or so they killed through forced labor/forced starvation/just shooting people in the occupied parts of the Soviet union?

Kraftwerk Orange: StoPPeRmobile: farking South.

Never won a war.

We did pretty well winning the Revolution to save all the yankees that had been captured (New York, Boston, Philly...)

[thomsonpark.files.wordpress.com image 822x511] 

First Victory of the Revolution: Battle Of Sullivan's Island, Charleston SC. June 28, 1776.

Not to mention the Mexican War.

Headso: Joe Blowme: IMHO. Freedom, this is how it works.

We also have the freedom to make fun of people who wear confederate flags or tattoo their faces or put gigantic gauges in their ears or whatever. I agree that getting mad or outraged about it is silly though.

I'm not outraged about it.

I just don't like it when people say there's no reason for anyone to be outraged about it.

I am not outraged by much...but I understand that some people will be offended by things, and some people will say those people shouldn't be offended or outraged - even though different people have different reactions to EVERYTHING.

Therion: In the 60s, 70s, and 80s, Confederate flags meant {Beavis voice} "I'm a Rebel! Rebels are Cool!" {/Beavis voice}

It wasn't until the 90s that Confederate flags started being strongly equated with Slavery and Racism, and an awful lot of folks still think that Confederate flags still mean "I'm a Rebel! Rebels are Cool!"

I think those people (what do you mean, those people?) still wear/ use the symbol to "stick it to the libs!"

To educated folks it's a symbol of oppression, to uneducated folks it's a symbol of cool. Screaming at the uneducated that their cool symbol is a hate symbol isn't the way to educate them.

(lived in the North most of my life, in Austin the last two decades, and I haven't owned anything with a Confederate flag on it since being a teenager. Comment added before some dumbass accuses me of "defending the Confederate flag")

Yeah, this. The Dukes of Hazzard had a car called the General Lee that had a huge Confederate flag on the roof. I don't remember much public outcry back then. As you said, it didn't really have 'racist' connotations until the 90's for some reason.

My roommate (from Texas) has a CSA tattoo and a rebel flag hanging in his room. Yet he plays with the Iraqi kids and goes camping with their parents. The Tamils from India just love him, the majority of his friends are black and his best friend is black. He's politically a democrat.

He does regret the tattoo (left over from his reenactment days). When people see it, they make assumptions about him. We were working on a poverty project and when people noticed it, they shied away from him.

Really, the most blatant racism I ever saw was in Maryland. Several people came up to me to try and explain why bigotry was correct. I wasn't running my mouth either. I just made a comment about something and they sought me out. I didn't see any flags though.

I never understood the Nazi memorabilia affection either. One guy I knew explained his as identifying with the regular Germans who were picked up and ground up in the machine of a war over which they had no personal power. Identifying a sort of hopelessness. The uniform of someone who strove, but was doomed. I don't know what to think about that. I was surprised to here him say it, because I assumed he was just a Nazi. He's the only guy who ever explained his fascination to me. I don't think most people thank that much about it.

/I do know where I am, but don't care. Somebody get me a drink and put me in cell 2.

olddeegee: [i220.photobucket.com image 328x219]
This is the current official Confederate National flag and will remain so until the Confederate Congress reconvenes and officially decides on the matter. So, you southerners aren't doing it right.

The one they're using is approved by the Ku Klux Klan, so that will just have to do.

sweetmelissa31: My great-great grandparents were shot into a ditch in Belarus because they were Jews.

They had it almost as hard as white Southerners in 2012 who can't wear Confederate flags without being criticized.

You farking win the thread, and I thank you for making the point succinctly.

sweetmelissa31: sweetmelissa31: FriarReb98: I'm sure the millions of Hindus, Buddhists and Janists who still use swastikas in their religion share your view.

Are you the kind of guy who has a Nazi flag tattoo and claim you just intended it as a Buddhist symbol?

Ah I should have checked your profile before hand. Complaining about "political correctness"? Check. A whole section about your Caucasian heritage? Check.

Seriously. How shameful for a white person to even hint at having 'heritage' unless of course it is presented purely in the form of an apology for inventing slavery.

doubled99: *yawn.
Lighten up Francis. You seem to be stuck in a time period you can't even comprehend.

None of that shiat has anything to do with why people display the rebel flag on their shirt, or earpiece or whatever.

You either don't live in the south, or talk to people who adamant in flying the confederate flag on a regular basis. There is an exceptionally strong insurrectionist and secessionist attitude among most confederate flag flyers that they are morally right, the U.S. is wrong, and their "country" will rise again.

Spend some time in small town Alabama or South Carolina. Chat with them for an hour or two. You'll understand exactly why the fly the rebel flag, and it's not for "old southern culture".

karnal: The Confederate flag does not represent racism. It was originally a symbol of southern heritage, representing freedom, states rights, individual responsibility, and resistance to an out of control federal government.

No slave ship ever sailed from a Confederate port or under a Confederate flag.

Ulysses S. Grant during the Civil War was a slave holder.
Robert E. Lee was against slavery.

Racist groups have used the Confederate flag in recent years but the Ku Klux Klan, have historically used the American flag for a much longer period of time.

hush now - there's no convincing people about history. They need a demographic to hate and they've chosen people from the South. It's our cross to bear.

/saw more racism in the north than I ever did in the south.

the_rev: Ah. There it is. This is what everyone's all butthurt about? Tapdancing Christ on a cracker...people will go to such great pains to find something to be offended about.

And some go to great pains to offend. *shrug*

Wonder how long it took him to find a confederate flag-branded earpiece.

Anyway, he did mean something. He meant he flunked American History and HEEEECAAAAN'THEEEEEAAAAAARRYOOOOOOOOUUUUUULALALALALALALALALALALALA...

FlashHarry: "southern heritage," my ass. it's a symbol of slavery and treason, nothing more.

This. SO MUCH OF THIS.

dr_blasto: hdhale: dr_blasto: kronicfeld: The fact that it is the flag of a treasonous, secessionist armed insurrection

Armed insurrection in support of slavery.

Armed insurrection in support of states' rights, actually.

Also, the flag you see typically used by "just the good o' boys never meaning no harm..." is actually the Confederate Battle Flag, not the official flag of the Confederate States of America.

[www.sonofthesouth.net image 650x476]

The Confederate Battle Flag was carried by Confederate armies through the Civil War and while you might think that the flag of the losing army shouldn't be a source of pride, there are millions of decedents of many thousands of Confederate soldiers that served their state and their communities proudly that would tell you that you are wrong. They fought well and most gave everything they had. There was much mutual respect between the veterans of both armies at the end of that war--because it was earned.

Yes, I'm aware it is the battle flag. I'm also aware it is state's rights to maintain slavery.

Slavery was the primary issue under the States' Rights umbrella, but not the only issue. People who didn't own slaves nor work for people who did were concerned about the reach of the Federal government into local affairs, trade and tariffs, and the like. It was Lincoln that made the war all about slavery and the national narrative followed that line after the war.

It's interesting how states' rights has come back from the dead as an issue, and is no longer focused on economics or on one particular region. The issue of the Federal government micromanaging local affairs however is a common theme and much of what those in 1861 feared would happen came true long ago.

rufus-t-firefly: If we're going to talk about history, let's at least get the basic facts straight.

The basic facts are that with the exception of a few units in the Trans-Mississippi region, the square or rectangular version of the Confederate battle flag was used by all the Confederate armies as they standardized their colors. Since I know you aren't one of those guys that spends hours getting just the proper shade of butternut on the uniform blouses for his Civil War miniatures set, are we done here?

Kraftwerk Orange: StoPPeRmobile: farking South.

Never won a war.

We did pretty well winning the Revolution to save all the yankees that had been captured (New York, Boston, Philly...)

 

First Victory of the Revolution: Battle Of Sullivan's Island, Charleston SC. June 28, 1776.

Well done!

Rostin: The US government intentionally withheld syphilis treatments from black people in a long running medical experiment that lasted until 1972. It also interned Japanese people in WWII, continued screwing over Native Americans well into the 20th century, and is indirectly responsible for the deaths of an estimated 100,000 Iraqi citizens.

Why is it acceptable to wear a US flag but not a Confederate one? It's certainly not because the US has been a great respecter of the rights of minorities. The only reason I can think of is that the CSA lost.

Oh Snap!

SoupJohnB: Wait now - does this guy play "Country," or Western?"

/Blues Bros

//oblig

He plays neither

Holocaust Agnostic: FlashHarry: "southern heritage," my ass. it's a symbol of slavery and treason, nothing more.

Its no more offensive than the US flag.


"What the [American] flag is, is a symbol of terrorism and death and fear and destruction and oppression."Jennie Traschen UMass prof. 10 Sept 2001

rufus-t-firefly: Doom MD: You're not refuting anything I have posited. The confederate states seceded (largely) because of slavery. The Civil War, however, was fought because the United States fought with the belief that a state lacks the ability to secede from the Union. Do you see the distinction I'm making here?

I understand the distinction...but it isn't correct.

There was a legal argument to be made, but the seceding states decided to resort to force of arms.

And what event moved it from legal to martial? An attack on a Federal installation.

The Confederacy could have taken things through courts, but they chose force.

And, finally, the war itself didn't resolve the question of secession - the Supreme Court did.

Texas v. White (1870).

The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to 'be perpetual.' And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained 'to form a more perfect Union.' It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?
...
When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the ...

To be fair, the installation was in South Carolina. I agree with you that I would've preferred a legal avenue be attempted first, but would the conclusion have been any different? Do you really think the federal government would've allowed half the country to secede? The supreme court case officially put the matter to bed, but really, 5 years after the war it's a bit of an afterthought.

Truth be told I am still working out my feelings about the entire war. It's sad how much life was lost over it. I applaud the ending of slavery and I'm happy the Union was held intact. Still, states rights did take a hit. A state not being allowed to leave the Union? I dont know, it just doesn't sit quite right with me that such a thing could be enforced with violence. There's already many, many disincentives to rescind statehood, but an argument could be made this ability would be a good balance of powers between state and federal government in extreme circumstances.

Samwise Gamgee: Therion: In the 60s, 70s, and 80s, Confederate flags meant {Beavis voice} "I'm a Rebel! Rebels are Cool!" {/Beavis voice}

It wasn't until the 90s that Confederate flags started being strongly equated with Slavery and Racism, and an awful lot of folks still think that Confederate flags still mean "I'm a Rebel! Rebels are Cool!"

I think those people (what do you mean, those people?) still wear/ use the symbol to "stick it to the libs!"

To educated folks it's a symbol of oppression, to uneducated folks it's a symbol of cool. Screaming at the uneducated that their cool symbol is a hate symbol isn't the way to educate them.

(lived in the North most of my life, in Austin the last two decades, and I haven't owned anything with a Confederate flag on it since being a teenager. Comment added before some dumbass accuses me of "defending the Confederate flag")

Yeah, this. The Dukes of Hazzard had a car called the General Lee that had a huge Confederate flag on the roof. I don't remember much public outcry back then. As you said, it didn't really have 'racist' connotations until the 90's for some reason.

Nope. None at all.

Trace Adkins, attention whore

Amos Quito: Publikwerks: WorldKnowledge: If you want to fall for the looking-for-a-reason to be offended propaganda, be my guest.

Here's a little know reality in your circles -

I was in Georgia and kept seeing black men with that flag on their shirts cars and etc.
So being from the liberal la la land of California, I asked one of them at a gas station about their donning of the flag.
He tells me and I quote, "Pardon me sir, but you y'all must be a Yankee to think I'm not proud of this flag"!

It was the battle flag taken up by people set on killing my fellow Americans for a evil cause. Thats all I need to know


Ignorance is bliss.


That explains why you are so blissfull

The new standard for freedom of expression is that you can do what you want as long as nobody is offended

I used to drive around the D.C. area with a big rebel flag draped over the back seat.

Not a single person said a word about it.....to my face.

I also like to wear a Cowboys football jacket during football season.

There were lots of people said things about that.

karnal:

Feigned outrage is just pathetic

Yet so fashionable these days...

SkunkWerks:

Wonder how long it took him to find a confederate flag-branded earpiece.


Oh I don't know....2 seconds on the internet?

Link

I don't know that they actually offer one, but I was amazed at the sheer number of silly "rebel" stuff stores there are, proving to me that no one takes this seriously and the butthurts should really step back and listen to how childish and silly they sound.

/yes, I know I used 'silly' twice
//trying not to use 'stupid' today
///I don't care if someone wants to fly some fake bravado, they probably have a small penis and/or a meth whore wife/gf/sister/cousin

Was Francis Keyes racist when he wrote a poem about a flag representing a nation that supported slavery?

How about the Flag of the Revolution?

Doom MD: rufus-t-firefly: Doom MD: You're not refuting anything I have posited. The confederate states seceded (largely) because of slavery. The Civil War, however, was fought because the United States fought with the belief that a state lacks the ability to secede from the Union. Do you see the distinction I'm making here?

I understand the distinction...but it isn't correct.

There was a legal argument to be made, but the seceding states decided to resort to force of arms.

And what event moved it from legal to martial? An attack on a Federal installation.

The Confederacy could have taken things through courts, but they chose force.

And, finally, the war itself didn't resolve the question of secession - the Supreme Court did.

Texas v. White (1870).

The Union of the States never was a purely artificial and arbitrary relation. It began among the Colonies, and grew out of common origin, mutual sympathies, kindred principles, similar interests, and geographical relations. It was confirmed and strengthened by the necessities of war, and received definite form and character and sanction from the Articles of Confederation. By these, the Union was solemnly declared to 'be perpetual.' And when these Articles were found to be inadequate to the exigencies of the country, the Constitution was ordained 'to form a more perfect Union.' It is difficult to convey the idea of indissoluble unity more clearly than by these words. What can be indissoluble if a perpetual Union, made more perfect, is not?
...
When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final. The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the ...

To be fair, the installation was in South Carolina. I agree with you that I would've preferred a legal avenue be attempted first, but would the conclusion have been any different? Do you really think the federal government would've allowed half the country to secede? The supreme court case officially put the matter to bed, but really, 5 years after the war it's a bit of an afterthought.

Truth be told I am still working out my feelings about the entire war. It's sad how much life was lost over it. I applaud the ending of slavery and I'm happy the Union was held intact. Still, states rights did take a hit. A state not being allowed to leave the Union? I dont know, it just doesn't sit quite right with me that such a thing could be enforced with violence. There's already many, many disincentives to rescind statehood, but an argument could be made this ability would be a good balance of powers between state and federal government in extreme circumstances.

Priorities dude. If a bunch of states seceded today I'd be all for it. But slavers need their countries burned down around their ears and unionists are a perfectly acceptable tool for that task.

I'm all for "neither this nor that" but lesser evilism does very occasionally have a place. Basically, I guess what I'm trying to say is Both Sides Are Bad, So Burn Down Atlanta.

Louisiana_Sitar_Club: What a buffoon. Not only does he wear the damn thing but then he back peddles when he gets called on it. If you're going to wear it, f*cking own it, you twit.
Now he's a traitor to his country and a traitor to the confederacy. A traitor squared, if you will.
(and a racist)
(and a coward)

Looks to me like you're ready to be butthurt no matter what the guy does.