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(ZDNet)   If you've ever wanted to pay $1000 for a tablet with a battery life of four hours, do we have good news for you   (zdnet.com) divider line 201
    More: Fail, pro, How Microsoft, John Wiley & Sons  
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10774 clicks; posted to Geek » on 30 Nov 2012 at 8:59 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-30 08:08:24 AM
Pricing your tablet higher than Apple's doesn't make it better.
 
2012-11-30 08:32:06 AM
And Ballmer scratches his head wondering why Microsoft isnt succeeding outside the Windows/Office/XBOX world
 
2012-11-30 08:35:41 AM
Still has potential for those who wouldn't find themselves often too far from a power source when using it. Shame about the price tag though, not much you can say to smooth over that bump.
 
2012-11-30 08:41:38 AM
Well, Intel based is a good thing. Too bad Intel hasn't figured out how to be power efficient yet.
 
2012-11-30 08:46:50 AM

sasbazooka: Well, Intel based is a good thing. Too bad Intel hasn't figured out how to be power efficient yet.


Better than having any sort of AMD CPU inside
 
2012-11-30 08:54:02 AM

sasbazooka: Well, Intel based is a good thing. Too bad Intel hasn't figured out how to be power efficient yet.


That may be true, but I think the ultimate limitation is the form factor - remember, ultrabooks and the Macbook Air can get anywhere from 6-10 hours worth of battery life, and they all run Intel chips inside.
 
2012-11-30 09:04:01 AM

cman: And Ballmer scratches his head wondering why Microsoft isnt succeeding outside the Windows/Office/XBOX world


Developers, developers, developers?
 
2012-11-30 09:11:35 AM
Surface pro really isn't a tablet, it's an ultrabook in the form of a tablet
 
2012-11-30 09:11:54 AM

cman: sasbazooka: Well, Intel based is a good thing. Too bad Intel hasn't figured out how to be power efficient yet.

Better than having any sort of AMD CPU inside


Pretty much. AMD still has some high thermal envelopes going for it. They aren't bad for certain desktop setups though. Also rumored to be the brains int he ps4 when it finally releases.

ARM seems to dominate the mobile area right now, must be driving intel and others nuts.
 
2012-11-30 09:18:03 AM
also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?
 
2012-11-30 09:20:06 AM

Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?


About 2010.
 
2012-11-30 09:20:53 AM

Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?


Well, for tablet form factors, it's on the low side. Most ARM-based tablets (which everyone is used to) run around 8 hours in batteries. My Asus Transformer 300 runs around 10 hours (14 with the keyboard dock). I can go 4 or 5 days between charges on my Transformer.
 
2012-11-30 09:21:18 AM

cman: And Ballmer scratches his head wondering why Microsoft isnt succeeding outside the Windows/Office/XBOX world


there's still time for them to fail at the xbox/office/windows world too

Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?


it's half that of any laptop or competing tablet
 
2012-11-30 09:22:10 AM

sasbazooka: Well, Intel based is a good thing. Too bad Intel hasn't figured out how to be power efficient yet.


I just upgraded my qx6700 130W processor with a new i5-3570K 77w processor, I used a waterloop before due to extreme heat issues and it made a nice radiating heater under my desk. Now I use the stock cooler and the temps are lower and the thing runs faster than the qx but I've lost my foot heater and need to start wearing socks because of cold.
 
2012-11-30 09:22:26 AM

Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?


I think the bigger issue is the fact that this, the Surface Pro, in the same family as the Surface, costs twice as much as the regular and has half the battery life. Normally in a regular tech company, the Pro version would have better power.
 
2012-11-30 09:34:02 AM

kalor: wearing socks because of cold.


My home rig is Intel/NVidia, and my wife's rig is AMD/ATI. My system will be cool and quiet, and when she runs her system, it sounds like a 747 gearing up for a takeoff, and the whole room feels like someone turn the car heater on high. It's crazy.
 
2012-11-30 09:35:28 AM
Manufacturers are constantly competing for "Thinner, lighter, more portable!" which reduces the space required for a battery inside the enclosure. I wouldn't balk at a tablet that's two millimetres thicker and an ounce heavier if it meant significant battery life improvement.
 
2012-11-30 09:35:38 AM

sasbazooka: kalor: wearing socks because of cold.

My home rig is Intel/NVidia, and my wife's rig is AMD/ATI. My system will be cool and quiet, and when she runs her system, it sounds like a 747 gearing up for a takeoff, and the whole room feels like someone turn the car heater on high. It's crazy.


Sounds like she runs a stock fan. My AMD system makes no sound. Granted, there's also about 2 pounds of copper hanging off of the damn thing.
 
2012-11-30 09:36:45 AM
I'm guessing other Win Tablet manufacturers will have better battery life, as they will balance performance to power consumption. Microsoft just does not quite get the mobile market.
 
2012-11-30 09:40:56 AM
Last time I will ever get excited by any Microsoft hardware. For that price you can get a nexus 7 and a laptop with an i5. They missed the part where they have to offer something that's better than their competition. Their only chance at success is to go after the enterprise market. The price tag isn't outrageous if the office buys me one...
 
2012-11-30 09:43:03 AM
Why would anyone buy the top-end model of any tablet?
 
2012-11-30 09:43:56 AM

mtb9000: Last time I will ever get excited by any Microsoft hardware. For that price you can get a nexus 7 and a laptop with an i5. They missed the part where they have to offer something that's better than their competition. Their only chance at success is to go after the enterprise market. The price tag isn't outrageous if the office buys me one...


But why would the office buy you one when they can put out less money for more machine? The only thing you would be getting is a lighter form factor and face it, does your work really care how much you lug around?
 
2012-11-30 09:44:36 AM
Should I get, for family use, an iPad or an MacBook Air?
 
2012-11-30 09:44:45 AM
That's actually fairly average for an Core i5-based system, both in battery life and in price. Yes, yes, I know, the iPad has better battery life, but the iPad is also not nearly as capable.

To put it in terms an Apple fan can understand, the Surface RT is the iPad. The Surface Pro is the Modbook. I'm not saying that I'm a fan of MS's current direction, but comparing the iPad to the Surface Pro is like comparing apples to bulldozers.
 
2012-11-30 09:45:58 AM

sasbazooka: kalor: wearing socks because of cold.

My home rig is Intel/NVidia, and my wife's rig is AMD/ATI. My system will be cool and quiet, and when she runs her system, it sounds like a 747 gearing up for a takeoff, and the whole room feels like someone turn the car heater on high. It's crazy.


ATI GPUs are plenty efficient. Generally better than Nvidia. The problem is that AMD really turned up the voltage and hit triple digits in CPU power consumption for some SKUs in order to still get beat handily by Intel in performance.
 
2012-11-30 09:46:58 AM

cman: Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?

I think the bigger issue is the fact that this, the Surface Pro, in the same family as the Surface, costs twice as much as the regular and has half the battery life. Normally in a regular tech company, the Pro version would have better power.


it has better power which is why it has lower running time.

AdamK: it's half that of any laptop or competing tablet


LAPTOP? WAT?

maybe a tablet yes... but the problem is Surface isn't really competing with the existing tablets on the market. It's going for the ultrabook segment that want a tablet with all the features of their ultrabook


mtb9000: Their only chance at success is to go after the enterprise market.


that is EXACTLY the target audience of Surface Pro

sasbazooka: kalor: wearing socks because of cold.

My home rig is Intel/NVidia, and my wife's rig is AMD/ATI. My system will be cool and quiet, and when she runs her system, it sounds like a 747 gearing up for a takeoff, and the whole room feels like someone turn the car heater on high. It's crazy.


amusingly..

Intel/Nvidia = Cool/HOTOTOTOT [until the 6xx series)
AMD/ATI = Hot/Cool [excluding the old HD2k series]
 
2012-11-30 09:47:29 AM
I once paid $0 for a laptop with a 10 minute battery life, so mine is infinitely better.
 
2012-11-30 09:48:02 AM
I'm getting tired of having to steer my boss away from mandating that everyone in the office start using a Surface.

He loves his but we have guys with dual 23" monitors who still want more space.

I'm anticipating by the end of Winter it will have devolved into scenarios where I'm slashing tires to keep him from going to Best Buy to pick them up or hiding his wallet.
 
2012-11-30 09:48:11 AM

madgonad: sasbazooka: kalor: wearing socks because of cold.

My home rig is Intel/NVidia, and my wife's rig is AMD/ATI. My system will be cool and quiet, and when she runs her system, it sounds like a 747 gearing up for a takeoff, and the whole room feels like someone turn the car heater on high. It's crazy.

ATI GPUs are plenty efficient. Generally better than Nvidia. The problem is that AMD really turned up the voltage and hit triple digits in CPU power consumption for some SKUs in order to still get beat handily by Intel in performance.


Bulldozer:AMD::Netburst:Intel
 
2012-11-30 09:50:31 AM

Kazan: madgonad: sasbazooka: kalor: wearing socks because of cold.

My home rig is Intel/NVidia, and my wife's rig is AMD/ATI. My system will be cool and quiet, and when she runs her system, it sounds like a 747 gearing up for a takeoff, and the whole room feels like someone turn the car heater on high. It's crazy.

ATI GPUs are plenty efficient. Generally better than Nvidia. The problem is that AMD really turned up the voltage and hit triple digits in CPU power consumption for some SKUs in order to still get beat handily by Intel in performance.

Bulldozer:AMD::Netburst:Intel


I thought we're onto Piledriver now.
 
2012-11-30 09:50:51 AM

RexTalionis: I thought we're onto Piledriver now.


Piledriver is Bulldozer 1.5
 
2012-11-30 09:52:14 AM

Hagbardr: I once paid $0 for a laptop with a 10 minute battery life, so mine is infinitely better.


Hey, me too! Actually, I did have to spend $80 to throw a hard drive in it. It's down to about 30 seconds of battery life.
 
2012-11-30 09:53:06 AM
As a student, I'm looking forward to taking notes in a classroom with this. OneNote recognizes the handwritten symbols and operators used in college-level math classes. I've been lusting after better ways of taking notes in class and recording lectures and it looks like the Surface Pro will work wonderfully.

My only gripe is that it won't have Office 2010 (or 2013) already installed; I'll have to buy that separately.

Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.
 
2012-11-30 09:57:52 AM

BizarreMan: mtb9000: Last time I will ever get excited by any Microsoft hardware. For that price you can get a nexus 7 and a laptop with an i5. They missed the part where they have to offer something that's better than their competition. Their only chance at success is to go after the enterprise market. The price tag isn't outrageous if the office buys me one...

But why would the office buy you one when they can put out less money for more machine? The only thing you would be getting is a lighter form factor and face it, does your work really care how much you lug around?


If you were unfortunate enough to regularly lug a laptop around when the whole thing weighed ten pounds or more for more than a few years, it's likely you've ended up in the doctor's office with back or shoulder problems. The human body is pretty good at lifting things and putting them down over and over. It's not so good at having weight thrown on it for an extended period of time. Repeat that too often, and you'll find your body warping quite a bit.

So, yes, at least in our business, we care. It isn't worth it to us to cut a few hundred off the price of a device if it means we're going to decrease how long someone can work for us by even a few months in the long term.

/used to lug around a 15 pound laptop, no joke
//yeah, shoulder problems from it -- don't walk nearly a mile with 15 pounds on your shoulder!
///backpacks can help, but then random passerbys will beat you for wearing a backpack and not being a youngster. :)
 
2012-11-30 10:01:01 AM

FitzShivering: /used to lug around a 15 pound laptop, no joke
//yeah, shoulder problems from it -- don't walk nearly a mile with 15 pounds on your shoulder!
///backpacks can help, but then random passerbys will beat you for wearing a backpack and not being a youngster. :)



unless you live somewhere that backpacks are totally normal. i lug my ibuypower cz-17 around using my day hiking pack
 
2012-11-30 10:01:38 AM

Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?


My cheapo Android tablet has a 5 hr battery life with moderate to high usage. That's fine for me because I really only use it when I'm travelling or commuting to/from work on the bus/train. The upside is also that it will either charge off a DC plug or a micro USB plug to 80% in 30-45 minutes. It cost me around 80 bucks with shipping. Granted the size of the tablet affects battery life, but throwing down $1000 for a tablet/pseudo laptop replacement makes me expect a lot more from it.
 
2012-11-30 10:02:06 AM

Broktun: Should I get, for family use, an iPad or an MacBook Air?


The iPad is mostly a media consumption device. If you want more of a highly portable computer, get the MacBook Air.
 
2012-11-30 10:02:19 AM

IntertubeUser: As a student, I'm looking forward to taking notes in a classroom with this. OneNote recognizes the handwritten symbols and operators used in college-level math classes. I've been lusting after better ways of taking notes in class and recording lectures and it looks like the Surface Pro will work wonderfully.

My only gripe is that it won't have Office 2010 (or 2013) already installed; I'll have to buy that separately.

Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.


OneNote is available on the iPad for free.
 
2012-11-30 10:02:54 AM

IntertubeUser: Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.


And buying a Microsoft tablet for a grand so you can take better notes in a few classes is what?
 
2012-11-30 10:03:15 AM
If this is going to be a generic tablet thread I will say that I got a 7" Fire HD for my Mother in law and it is awesome. Only problem is that Amazon too has adopted the walled garden approach, and their garden is sparse as of this typing. However, for an Amazon prime member, the free streaming video itself is awesome, and the sound / resolution on the thing is fantastic.
 
2012-11-30 10:03:59 AM

tricycleracer: Hagbardr: I once paid $0 for a laptop with a 10 minute battery life, so mine is infinitely better.

Hey, me too! Actually, I did have to spend $80 to throw a hard drive in it. It's down to about 30 seconds of battery life.


I had to disassemble mine to put a drop of solder on the power jack.
 
2012-11-30 10:06:11 AM

redmid17: Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?

My cheapo Android tablet has a 5 hr battery life with moderate to high usage. That's fine for me because I really only use it when I'm travelling or commuting to/from work on the bus/train. The upside is also that it will either charge off a DC plug or a micro USB plug to 80% in 30-45 minutes. It cost me around 80 bucks with shipping. Granted the size of the tablet affects battery life, but throwing down $1000 for a tablet/pseudo laptop replacement makes me expect a lot more from it.


performance comes at the price of battery life. ignoring this simple fact is the issue.
 
2012-11-30 10:06:16 AM

stovepipe: IntertubeUser: As a student, I'm looking forward to taking notes in a classroom with this. OneNote recognizes the handwritten symbols and operators used in college-level math classes. I've been lusting after better ways of taking notes in class and recording lectures and it looks like the Surface Pro will work wonderfully.

My only gripe is that it won't have Office 2010 (or 2013) already installed; I'll have to buy that separately.

Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.

OneNote is available on the iPad for free.


Ever tried writing with an iPad and the styluses (stylii?) that are out there? Better yet, integral symbols, Greek letters, super and sub-script? It's miserable.

The Surface Pro doesn't have that damned capacitive touchscreen that iPad does.
 
2012-11-30 10:07:26 AM

Cinaed: Why would anyone buy the top-end model of any tablet?


I think a lot of tablet makers are focusing on making tablets that are really fairly portable desktop replacements, i.e. easy to carry around but will mostly stay in one place. Tablets provide easy input for Chinese characters, much easier than the awkward systems currently available. When you have such a large emerging market, it really makes sense to try to capitalize on it. In ten years, I doubt you'll see many keyboards in China outside of specialized environments where people have a lot of training in typing, like secretaries, and so can type faster than they can draw.
 
2012-11-30 10:10:35 AM

IntertubeUser: stovepipe: IntertubeUser: As a student, I'm looking forward to taking notes in a classroom with this. OneNote recognizes the handwritten symbols and operators used in college-level math classes. I've been lusting after better ways of taking notes in class and recording lectures and it looks like the Surface Pro will work wonderfully.

My only gripe is that it won't have Office 2010 (or 2013) already installed; I'll have to buy that separately.

Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.

OneNote is available on the iPad for free.

Ever tried writing with an iPad and the styluses (stylii?) that are out there? Better yet, integral symbols, Greek letters, super and sub-script? It's miserable.

The Surface Pro doesn't have that damned capacitive touchscreen that iPad does.


Err... yes, the Surface Pro does have a capacitive touchscreen. It just has an additional digitizer for stylus use, which is something the iPad lacks.
 
2012-11-30 10:11:38 AM

MayoSlather: IntertubeUser: Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.

And buying a Microsoft tablet for a grand so you can take better notes in a few classes is what?


Having a digital version of my class notes, which takes my crappy handwriting and makes it readable, lets me edit and rearrange and color code and highlight my notes, and can sync with recordings from the lecture ... a thousand dollars might be worth it. Hell, I could even get Kindle versions of my textbooks and lighten my backpack up even more.
 
2012-11-30 10:15:18 AM

sasbazooka: Well, Intel based is a good thing. Too bad Intel hasn't figured out how to be power efficient yet.


Except for the Atom processor based tablets. This thing offers an i5 or an i7 processor. You'd expect that in a laptop or desktop, not a tablet.
 
2012-11-30 10:15:57 AM

IntertubeUser: Kindle versions of my textbooks


How would that work for open book tests? You might find yourself screwed on exam day if you are only allowed the mandated text and one sheet of notes.

/engineering major
//many moons ago
 
2012-11-30 10:17:18 AM

HeartBurnKid: IntertubeUser: stovepipe: IntertubeUser: As a student, I'm looking forward to taking notes in a classroom with this.
The Surface Pro doesn't have that damned capacitive touchscreen that iPad does.

Err... yes, the Surface Pro does have a capacitive touchscreen. It just has an additional digitizer for stylus use, which is something the iPad lacks.


Oops. You're right. Sorry about that.
 
2012-11-30 10:18:27 AM

Hagbardr: tricycleracer: Hagbardr: I once paid $0 for a laptop with a 10 minute battery life, so mine is infinitely better.

Hey, me too! Actually, I did have to spend $80 to throw a hard drive in it. It's down to about 30 seconds of battery life.

I had to disassemble mine to put a drop of solder on the power jack.


That's what mine probably needs. You really have to fidget with the plug to get it to light up the charging LED. If it falls out of alignment, you have 10 seconds to fix it or the laptop will self-destruct.

/Okay, it won't explode. Just hibernates and subsequently dies.
 
2012-11-30 10:21:08 AM

IntertubeUser: As a student, I'm looking forward to taking notes in a classroom with this. OneNote recognizes the handwritten symbols and operators used in college-level math classes. I've been lusting after better ways of taking notes in class and recording lectures and it looks like the Surface Pro will work wonderfully.

My only gripe is that it won't have Office 2010 (or 2013) already installed; I'll have to buy that separately.

Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.


When the Surface RT was released, I was hoping it would have a full office suite for similar reasons. I don't care about "apps", etc, I wanted a tablet that could use Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Access, Projects, etc, play music and videos, and browse the web. Perfect for travel when working, especially with that softcover. Alas, it was not to be. 1000$ for hardware that can do all that is just too much, especially with the lack of touchpad AND office suites in the initial package. If Apple (or Android) sold a machine with a fully functional version of Office (and a softcover keyboard would be a bonus), I'd be sold quick.

I know most think of tablets as entertainment machines, and that's likely true, but we use iPads at the office as a replacement for paper in house and in the field (we're an environmental engineering company, a lot of forms and design drawings and notes). We've managed to get some third party software that lets us make custom forms, but having Office on the damn things (and again, a soft keyboard) would make them 10x more useful.

As you said, the Surface Pro looks like it can perform the task, but the cost, lack of included hardware, additional cost for Office, and the lack of battery life is a big downer. (I don't know if battery life could be improved; like the speed of light, limits on energy density and energy consumption are hard realities to deal with.)
 
2012-11-30 10:31:01 AM

sprawl15: cman: And Ballmer scratches his head wondering why Microsoft isnt succeeding outside the Windows/Office/XBOX world

Developers, developers, developers?


This will be Apple's eventual downfall in the mobile market. Apple's strategy to behave like a spoiled brat and regular habit of shiatting on it's developer community will bite them in the ass eventually. MS would have to completely train wreck every tablet they plop out.
 
2012-11-30 10:32:04 AM

H31N0US: If this is going to be a generic tablet thread I will say that I got a 7" Fire HD for my Mother in law and it is awesome. Only problem is that Amazon too has adopted the walled garden approach, and their garden is sparse as of this typing. However, for an Amazon prime member, the free streaming video itself is awesome, and the sound / resolution on the thing is fantastic.


Amazon at least gives you the option of sideloading apps on the Fire. That walled garden has a pretty good sized gate.
 
2012-11-30 10:36:55 AM
It's not too far out of the norm for an i5 laptop, both price and battery life, which is what the Surface Pro is. Comparing it to an iPad is like comparing an old clamshell cell phone to a Galaxy S3 and biatching that the latter is more expensive and drains faster.
 
2012-11-30 10:37:02 AM

Kazan: redmid17: Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?

My cheapo Android tablet has a 5 hr battery life with moderate to high usage. That's fine for me because I really only use it when I'm travelling or commuting to/from work on the bus/train. The upside is also that it will either charge off a DC plug or a micro USB plug to 80% in 30-45 minutes. It cost me around 80 bucks with shipping. Granted the size of the tablet affects battery life, but throwing down $1000 for a tablet/pseudo laptop replacement makes me expect a lot more from it.

performance comes at the price of battery life. ignoring this simple fact is the issue.


It's 3 mm thinner than the Macbook Air with no keyboard and the same processor with worse battery life. Comparing it to my tablet might be not be the greatest idea, but Microsoft is about 3-4 years late to the party.
 
2012-11-30 10:42:59 AM

RexTalionis: sasbazooka: Well, Intel based is a good thing. Too bad Intel hasn't figured out how to be power efficient yet.

That may be true, but I think the ultimate limitation is the form factor - remember, ultrabooks and the Macbook Air can get anywhere from 6-10 hours worth of battery life, and they all run Intel chips inside.

No it gets 4-5(11") you might want to check out Apples own website. This has a higher screen resolution, 10 point touch, and a pen digitizer. Microsoft made the Surface to force OEM's to get off their asses and make some quality products. So far the only one to do is Lenovo.
 
2012-11-30 10:44:51 AM
double the price, thicker/heavier, and half the battery life? Sorry Microsoft, no deal. Just about any of the new generation Windows-8 ultrabooks are a better deal.
 
2012-11-30 10:44:57 AM

drjekel_mrhyde: RexTalionis: sasbazooka: Well, Intel based is a good thing. Too bad Intel hasn't figured out how to be power efficient yet.

That may be true, but I think the ultimate limitation is the form factor - remember, ultrabooks and the Macbook Air can get anywhere from 6-10 hours worth of battery life, and they all run Intel chips inside.
No it gets 4-5(11") you might want to check out Apples own website. This has a higher screen resolution, 10 point touch, and a pen digitizer. Microsoft made the Surface to force OEM's to get off their asses and make some quality products. So far the only one to do is Lenovo.


My coworkers easily get 6+ hours on the 13" issued in 2011. It's really annoying when we're travelling and I have to lug around my charger because I have 4 hours of battery life if I'm on the lowest brightness setting and disable just about every accessory.
 
2012-11-30 10:47:08 AM

redmid17: drjekel_mrhyde: RexTalionis: sasbazooka: Well, Intel based is a good thing. Too bad Intel hasn't figured out how to be power efficient yet.

That may be true, but I think the ultimate limitation is the form factor - remember, ultrabooks and the Macbook Air can get anywhere from 6-10 hours worth of battery life, and they all run Intel chips inside.
No it gets 4-5(11") you might want to check out Apples own website. This has a higher screen resolution, 10 point touch, and a pen digitizer. Microsoft made the Surface to force OEM's to get off their asses and make some quality products. So far the only one to do is Lenovo.

My coworkers easily get 6+ hours on the 13" issued in 2011. It's really annoying when we're travelling and I have to lug around my charger because I have 4 hours of battery life if I'm on the lowest brightness setting and disable just about every accessory.


Ok just realized the 13" probably has a larger battery but I would be astounded if the 11" only got 5 hours
 
2012-11-30 10:49:17 AM

IntertubeUser: Having a digital version of my class notes, which takes my crappy handwriting and makes it readable, lets me edit and rearrange and color code and highlight my notes, and can sync with recordings from the lecture ... a thousand dollars might be worth it. Hell, I could even get Kindle versions of my textbooks and lighten my backpack up even more.


Portable scanner: $100
Kindle: $100
Ten Notepads: $50
Biro: $2

There you go: complete solution to everything you need for $250 on top of your existing laptop. Oh, and if you lose your superduper notetaking machine or drop it, you lose $7. The Kindle will be easier to read than an LCD screen (or use Kindle App on your current laptop).

My workflow with clients is to take notes on paper and the minute I get back to the office, I scan them, put them in the project repository and shred the paper. Unless you're using a WACOM tablet, whatever you do won't look as good as paper + scanner.
 
2012-11-30 10:49:47 AM

divx88: sprawl15: cman: And Ballmer scratches his head wondering why Microsoft isnt succeeding outside the Windows/Office/XBOX world

Developers, developers, developers?

This will be Apple's eventual downfall in the mobile market. Apple's strategy to behave like a spoiled brat and regular habit of shiatting on it's developer community will bite them in the ass eventually. MS would have to completely train wreck every tablet they plop out.


This!

When the best available option for programming on your platform is to buy a third party product that lets you write in an actual usable language you've got problems.
 
2012-11-30 10:55:22 AM
As I've said before and I'll say again.

It's going to be yet another x86 based full fat tablet. It's not going to be heavier, thicker, hotter and noisier than an ARM based slate it won't have the battery life of an ARM based slate.

You can buy these already and in fact they pre-date the ARM based slates by a considerable number of years (going all the way back to 96 and the GRiDPad).

Also, suck it MS fanbois & shills. I was right. But then I know the farking technology.
 
2012-11-30 10:57:37 AM
It's going to be rather.
 
2012-11-30 11:08:27 AM

Vaneshi: As I've said before and I'll say again.

It's going to be yet another x86 based full fat tablet. It's not going to be heavier, thicker, hotter and noisier than an ARM based slate it won't have the battery life of an ARM based slate.

You can buy these already and in fact they pre-date the ARM based slates by a considerable number of years (going all the way back to 96 and the GRiDPad).

Also, suck it MS fanbois & shills. I was right. But then I know the farking technology.


It's more than a tablet, it's the only tablet that is capable of doing the same work as a laptop. This is designed for enterprise not for home use. Our head honcho has a laptop and a new iPad, buying both of those cost us more than $1200. We could now get the Surface pro and save money since it could be used to do actual work and still be in tablet fashion.

Go dig up Jobs and give him another hummer.
 
2012-11-30 11:08:28 AM
The Pro is the first tablet that looks like it could reasonably be used a permanent replacement for a laptop. That's the only thing I see that this dumb thing has going for it. I don't have a tablet because I don't need a farking smartphone and a tablet and a laptop.

If I could buy a tablet that could effectively do double duty as a laptop when I need one I'd buy a tablet. But I'm still not buying this one.
 
2012-11-30 11:09:21 AM

Vaneshi: As I've said before and I'll say again.

It's going to be yet another x86 based full fat tablet. It's not going to be heavier, thicker, hotter and noisier than an ARM based slate it won't have the battery life of an ARM based slate.

You can buy these already and in fact they pre-date the ARM based slates by a considerable number of years (going all the way back to 96 and the GRiDPad).

Also, suck it MS fanbois & shills. I was right. But then I know the farking technology.


Now that you're done congratulating yourself, what are you on about?
 
2012-11-30 11:09:57 AM

farkeruk: IntertubeUser: Having a digital version of my class notes, which takes my crappy handwriting and makes it readable, lets me edit and rearrange and color code and highlight my notes, and can sync with recordings from the lecture ... a thousand dollars might be worth it. Hell, I could even get Kindle versions of my textbooks and lighten my backpack up even more.

Portable scanner: $100
Kindle: $100
Ten Notepads: $50
Biro: $2

There you go: complete solution to everything you need for $250 on top of your existing laptop. Oh, and if you lose your superduper notetaking machine or drop it, you lose $7. The Kindle will be easier to read than an LCD screen (or use Kindle App on your current laptop).

My workflow with clients is to take notes on paper and the minute I get back to the office, I scan them, put them in the project repository and shred the paper. Unless you're using a WACOM tablet, whatever you do won't look as good as paper + scanner.


Then you're pasting .pdf images into a .docx? How easily can you edit what's in the .pdf image itself? Besides, being able to write and the software automatically interpreting what you're writing into nice, clean, editable .docx notes seems a heck of a lot easier than what you're describing.

BTW, if I drop or lose my existing laptop, I'm out more than the cost of the Surface Pro.
 
2012-11-30 11:11:23 AM
I'm an Apple guy, but I really like the idea of the Surface Pro. I don't think it's overpriced or the battery life is that bad for what it is.

I really like the idea of having a Tablet/Ultrabook in one. I've been going back and forth about getting a MacBook Air, and I think that I'll just continue to wait. Since the Surface Pro is x86-based, it's just a matter of time before someone shoehorns Ubuntu or OS X on it anyway.

I'm game for it, but count me out as an early adopter.
 
2012-11-30 11:12:47 AM

LasersHurt: Now that you're done congratulating yourself, what are you on about?


What's he on about? It sounds like he's on about 10 different kinds of medication at once.

But I would assume the point is that this will be a clunky, heavy and expensive laptop that does no better than an iPad. Which is stupid since the iPad is a toy while this is designed to target enterprise users. And it's barely any heavier. Or thicker.
 
2012-11-30 11:18:11 AM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: LasersHurt: Now that you're done congratulating yourself, what are you on about?

What's he on about? It sounds like he's on about 10 different kinds of medication at once.

But I would assume the point is that this will be a clunky, heavy and expensive laptop that does no better than an iPad. Which is stupid since the iPad is a toy while this is designed to target enterprise users. And it's barely any heavier. Or thicker.


I honestly think it would be great to have a Win 8 machine proper in that format. And $899 seems reasonable for what it actually is.

Granted, I'm sure he'd disagree because he "knows the technology." Apparently nobody else in the world does.
 
2012-11-30 11:19:39 AM

sasbazooka: Too bad Intel hasn't figured out how to be power efficient yet.


Intel has some fairly power-efficient models. Core i5's aren't among them.

WTF are you doing, Microsoft.
 
2012-11-30 11:22:18 AM

poot_rootbeer: sasbazooka: Too bad Intel hasn't figured out how to be power efficient yet.

Intel has some fairly power-efficient models. Core i5's aren't among them.

WTF are you doing, Microsoft.


Choosing a platform with enough power/price ratio?

Intel seems to be moving away from LGA to BGA in their mainlines by the end of the 2013s. Integrated, lower power. I think If you're looking for full power PCs in tablet form with low power, you're maybe waiting til then.

Intel's current lower power chips may not have been the right choice here.
 
2012-11-30 11:25:09 AM

IntertubeUser: Then you're pasting .pdf images into a .docx? How easily can you edit what's in the .pdf image itself? Besides, being able to write and the software automatically interpreting what you're writing into nice, clean, editable .docx notes seems a heck of a lot easier than what you're describing.


Show me a tablet someone automatically interpreting handwriting at a reasonable speed.
 
2012-11-30 11:28:33 AM

IntertubeUser: Then you're pasting .pdf images into a .docx? How easily can you edit what's in the .pdf image itself? Besides, being able to write and the software automatically interpreting what you're writing into nice, clean, editable .docx notes seems a heck of a lot easier than what you're describing.


I type 10 times faster than I write. Given the option, I'd rather type.
 
2012-11-30 11:35:09 AM

RexTalionis: IntertubeUser: Then you're pasting .pdf images into a .docx? How easily can you edit what's in the .pdf image itself? Besides, being able to write and the software automatically interpreting what you're writing into nice, clean, editable .docx notes seems a heck of a lot easier than what you're describing.

I type 10 times faster than I write. Given the option, I'd rather type.


IntertubeUser: "This is the way I want to use this."
You: "But that doesn't work for me."
 
2012-11-30 11:41:07 AM

farkeruk: IntertubeUser: Then you're pasting .pdf images into a .docx? How easily can you edit what's in the .pdf image itself? Besides, being able to write and the software automatically interpreting what you're writing into nice, clean, editable .docx notes seems a heck of a lot easier than what you're describing.

Show me a tablet someone automatically interpreting handwriting at a reasonable speed.


Typing...you're right. But I'm a math major. And I've seen other students with Asus tablets using Office in class and the handwriting recognition of Greek letters, integral and derivative notation, etc., is far faster than using Equation Editor. Also, drawing graphs and other diagrams...can't type that.

I might be alone here, but having editable math notes...that's a big deal for me.
 
db2
2012-11-30 11:43:58 AM
And then there's this sucker. Runs a good 10 hours on 4 AA NiMHs. Bring a spare set, and you're literally good for a whole day.

i.imgur.com
 
2012-11-30 11:53:45 AM

farkeruk:
Portable scanner: $100
Kindle: $100
Ten Notepads: $50
Biro: $2



$5/notepad? A 90 page spiral is ~$0.85 during back to school week sales. Is VAT that ridiculous?
 
2012-11-30 12:00:53 PM

HeartBurnKid: That's actually fairly average for an Core i5-based system, both in battery life and in price. Yes, yes, I know, the iPad has better battery life, but the iPad is also not nearly as capable.

To put it in terms an Apple fan can understand, the Surface RT is the iPad. The Surface Pro is the Modbook. I'm not saying that I'm a fan of MS's current direction, but comparing the iPad to the Surface Pro is like comparing apples to bulldozers.


At that price, you're not competing against an iPad. You're competing against a Macbook Air with an eight hour battery life..
 
2012-11-30 12:08:00 PM

IamSoSmart_S_M_R_T: $5/notepad? A 90 page spiral is ~$0.85 during back to school week sales. Is VAT that ridiculous?


No, I just buy higher quality writing pads like Pukka Pads. YMMV.

/don't buy Moleskines. You aren't going to turn into Ernest Hemingway because of it.
 
2012-11-30 12:12:06 PM
For those trying to understand what the Surface Pro is and why it is spec'd the way it is, let me run this scenario by you:

Suppose you're an engineer and at some factory somewhere. You work with some kind of CAD program, like AutoCAD for example, at your desktop. You're in the middle of updating some designs and you need to take a look at the actual layout. With the Surface Pro you can have a full version of AutoCAD installed, with the exact same interface and capabilities as the version on your desktop(because they are the same version). That allows you to grab the tablet, go downstairs and take a look at whatever it is you're designing and make complicated changes with the full version of AutoCAD installed on your tablet right there. When you're done, you can go back upstairs and continue working on your desktop, all seamlessly. Now I know that there are AutoDesk released an app for iOS and Android but they're a different layout and no where near full featured. It's also somewhat limited in what file types it can use and how it uses them. In addition, the iOS and Android tablets are using low powered processors which are slow and cumbersome (or just not capable) when looking at large DWG files.

In addition to this, from an IT perspective it's also very convenient. Since the Surface Pro is running Win8 Pro, it can seamlessly integrate with your domain and take all the GPOs and other security software. There's no need to try to shoehorn the software into the company network like you'd have to do with Android or iOS. Also, from a user perspective, the UI is identical whether you're on a tablet or desktop. You can configure you tablet to run exactly like you desktop with all the desktop programs OR you can configure it to use the more tablet friendly Metro style apps.

This all is very ambitious on MS's part and I'm skeptical that they can pull it off. But the vision, once you understand it, is actually pretty straight forward and not all that off the wall. The hope is that when a CEO or CIO decides that his company needs to get in on this tablet thing and looks at what it out there, he'll see that the MS tablets are already full compatible with all of his software and with the company network, plus they do all the same things iPads and Androids do. In short, MS is after the business customer, not you.
 
2012-11-30 12:22:11 PM
I like this concept better than a standard tablet.
Full featured and the RT's build quality has been good.
 
2012-11-30 12:22:15 PM

ForgotMyTowel: ...MS tablets are already full compatible with all of his software and with the company network, plus they do all the same things iPads and Androids do. In short, MS is after the business customer, not you.


Could not these tasks be done with an Ultrabook, cheaper and more functional?
 
2012-11-30 12:24:22 PM

ForgotMyTowel: You work with some kind of CAD program, like AutoCAD for example, at your desktop. You're in the middle of updating some designs and you need to take a look at the actual layout. With the Surface Pro you can have a full version of AutoCAD installed, with the exact same interface and capabilities as the version on your desktop(because they are the same version).


You know what else lets you run AutoCAD on the go? An ultrabook with double the battery life and a much, much, better screen resolution. Not to mention a discrete GPU with CUDA support.

Also, AutoCAD isn't capable of using a touch interface at all, so why would you want to run it on a device with a touch screen?.
 
2012-11-30 12:32:13 PM

TNel: Vaneshi: As I've said before and I'll say again.

It's going to be yet another x86 based full fat tablet. It's not going to be heavier, thicker, hotter and noisier than an ARM based slate it won't have the battery life of an ARM based slate.

You can buy these already and in fact they pre-date the ARM based slates by a considerable number of years (going all the way back to 96 and the GRiDPad).

Also, suck it MS fanbois & shills. I was right. But then I know the farking technology.

It's more than a tablet, it's the only tablet that is capable of doing the same work as a laptop. This is designed for enterprise not for home use. Our head honcho has a laptop and a new iPad, buying both of those cost us more than $1200. We could now get the Surface pro and save money since it could be used to do actual work and still be in tablet fashion.

Go dig up Jobs and give him another hummer.


People that do real work don't want a miniature touchscreen that looks like ass because they smear their filthy dickbeaters all over it.
 
2012-11-30 12:40:52 PM
If you stop and consider that the Pro does 50% more stuff and processes nearly EIGHT TIMES faster than the regular... it might make sense.
 
2012-11-30 12:41:26 PM

AdamK: Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?

it's half that of any laptop or competing tablet


Uhhh no. For a tablet, yes. For an ultrabook or (heaven forbid) a netbook, yes, for the better ones.

For your average or "any" laptop, even your high-end ones? Not even, not without a larger battery option which some do come with.
 
2012-11-30 12:44:45 PM

Kazan: Surface pro really isn't a tablet, it's an ultrabook in the form of a tablet


we all know how well those sold
 
2012-11-30 12:49:08 PM

moothemagiccow: Kazan: Surface pro really isn't a tablet, it's an ultrabook in the form of a tablet

we all know how well those sold


I think you're thinking of netbooks? Ultrabooks are doing well.
 
2012-11-30 12:49:19 PM

BullBearMS: ForgotMyTowel: You work with some kind of CAD program, like AutoCAD for example, at your desktop. You're in the middle of updating some designs and you need to take a look at the actual layout. With the Surface Pro you can have a full version of AutoCAD installed, with the exact same interface and capabilities as the version on your desktop(because they are the same version).

You know what else lets you run AutoCAD on the go? An ultrabook with double the battery life and a much, much, better screen resolution. Not to mention a discrete GPU with CUDA support.

Also, AutoCAD isn't capable of using a touch interface at all, so why would you want to run it on a device with a touch screen?.


AutoCAD can use a touch interface, you just can't "draw" with it. Instead you'd use the stylus the same way you would a mouse. Remember, AutoCAD won't know it's running on a tablet, it'll think it's on a standard desktop with a mouse and keyboard. Also, AutoCAD was one example I came up with off the top of my head. There are many other different programs across many industries that don't translate well to tablets because of limited processing power or other limitations of the architecture.

As far as an ultrabook being better, I imagine in many cases an ultrabook or laptop would be better. There are also instances where it's nice to have the conveniences of a tablet and it's simplified UI with the ability to switch over to work mode and run your full suite of desktop programs from one device. I'm not saying it's a one size fits all solution, but it fills the gap between ultrabooks and tablets. People will always be able to say "yeah but in this situation, device X would be better!" and they're normally right. But suffice to say, there is a demand for more powerful and capable tablets from the business world and MS is looking to meet it. How well they do it remains to be seen....
 
2012-11-30 12:51:34 PM

LasersHurt: moothemagiccow: Kazan: Surface pro really isn't a tablet, it's an ultrabook in the form of a tablet

we all know how well those sold

I think you're thinking of netbooks? Ultrabooks are doing well.


Ultrabooks are awesome. The lenovo is badass.
 
2012-11-30 12:53:32 PM

prjindigo: If you stop and consider that the Pro does 50% more stuff and processes nearly EIGHT TIMES faster than the regular... it might make sense.


Shhh don't cloud this thread with facts. Next you'll start pointing out that it is compatible with all of your existing software.

/Can't wait to get one of these
 
2012-11-30 12:56:25 PM

IntertubeUser: As a student, I'm looking forward to taking notes in a classroom with this. OneNote recognizes the handwritten symbols and operators used in college-level math classes. I've been lusting after better ways of taking notes in class and recording lectures and it looks like the Surface Pro will work wonderfully.

My only gripe is that it won't have Office 2010 (or 2013) already installed; I'll have to buy that separately.

Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.


Why?
 
2012-11-30 12:57:15 PM
I want to touch Excel all over
And over and over again
I want to touch Word all over
Till my battery gives in
(screechy voice)TILL MY BATTERY GIVES IN
 
2012-11-30 01:00:18 PM

farkeruk: IntertubeUser: Then you're pasting .pdf images into a .docx? How easily can you edit what's in the .pdf image itself? Besides, being able to write and the software automatically interpreting what you're writing into nice, clean, editable .docx notes seems a heck of a lot easier than what you're describing.

Show me a tablet someone automatically interpreting handwriting at a reasonable speed.


Can't speak for Windows 8/Surface, but I use a Windows 7 tablet & pen input for work - mostly going on inspections (so I am rarely sitting down) - and it's pretty damn impressive in interpreting handwriting quickly and with few errors including my chicken scratch. I'd assume that Windows 8 is at least as good if not better than 7.
 
2012-11-30 01:01:21 PM

mcreadyblue: Why?


You mean besides the fact that the two tablets are aimed at completely different market segments who are looking to accomplish completely different things and were built with completely different goals in mind?
 
2012-11-30 01:05:04 PM

mcreadyblue: IntertubeUser: As a student, I'm looking forward to taking notes in a classroom with this. OneNote recognizes the handwritten symbols and operators used in college-level math classes. I've been lusting after better ways of taking notes in class and recording lectures and it looks like the Surface Pro will work wonderfully.

My only gripe is that it won't have Office 2010 (or 2013) already installed; I'll have to buy that separately.

Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.

Why?


The Surface Pro uses the technologies in advanced laptops, but in a tablet form. You can run Windows in a full format, including full desktop applications. Something like the iPad is grown up from a Mobile format - lower power technologies that run simpler systems. You can do some amazing stuff on them now, admittedly, but they would make a piss poor job of running Windows as an OS.

They're simply meant for two markets. That explains the Winddows 8 RT Tablets - they're more the equivalent of an iPad, using lighter mobile technologies.

Help a little?
 
2012-11-30 01:06:49 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: mcreadyblue: Why?

You mean besides the fact that the two tablets are aimed at completely different market segments who are looking to accomplish completely different things and were built with completely different goals in mind?


Well yeah. The iPad can play movies from YouTube, take pictures and let me play the piano for 10 hours just fine. Why would I want something more expensive and powerful with less battery life just to post updates to Facebook?

/sarcasm
 
2012-11-30 01:08:21 PM

ForgotMyTowel: Why would I want something more expensive and powerful with less battery life just to post updates to Facebook?


So, basically, it's a bad tablet because you don't understand it.
 
2012-11-30 01:08:56 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: ForgotMyTowel: Why would I want something more expensive and powerful with less battery life just to post updates to Facebook?

So, basically, it's a bad tablet because you don't understand it.


Or was your sarcasm ending meant to imply that you were aping the other poster?
 
2012-11-30 01:09:09 PM

mcreadyblue: Why?


the Windows Surface RT is designed to compete with iPad, etc and the hardware is designed to so

Windows Surface Pro is designed to compete with Ultrabooks, but it fills a niche where a lot of corporate IT users want a tablet format, but with Ultrabook features.

The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.
 
2012-11-30 01:09:56 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Vegan Meat Popsicle: ForgotMyTowel: Why would I want something more expensive and powerful with less battery life just to post updates to Facebook?

So, basically, it's a bad tablet because you don't understand it.

Or was your sarcasm ending meant to imply that you were aping the other poster?


they were aping the other poster.
 
2012-11-30 01:11:10 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Vegan Meat Popsicle: ForgotMyTowel: Why would I want something more expensive and powerful with less battery life just to post updates to Facebook?

So, basically, it's a bad tablet because you don't understand it.

Or was your sarcasm ending meant to imply that you were aping the other poster?


That one.
 
2012-11-30 01:13:20 PM

ForgotMyTowel: That one.


Hmm.... well, a little self-flagellation is in order then.
 
2012-11-30 01:15:31 PM

ThreadSinger: IntertubeUser: As a student, I'm looking forward to taking notes in a classroom with this. OneNote recognizes the handwritten symbols and operators used in college-level math classes. I've been lusting after better ways of taking notes in class and recording lectures and it looks like the Surface Pro will work wonderfully.

My only gripe is that it won't have Office 2010 (or 2013) already installed; I'll have to buy that separately.

Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.

When the Surface RT was released, I was hoping it would have a full office suite for similar reasons. I don't care about "apps", etc, I wanted a tablet that could use Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Access, Projects, etc, play music and videos, and browse the web. Perfect for travel when working, especially with that softcover. Alas, it was not to be. 1000$ for hardware that can do all that is just too much, especially with the lack of touchpad AND office suites in the initial package. If Apple (or Android) sold a machine with a fully functional version of Office (and a softcover keyboard would be a bonus), I'd be sold quick.

I know most think of tablets as entertainment machines, and that's likely true, but we use iPads at the office as a replacement for paper in house and in the field (we're an environmental engineering company, a lot of forms and design drawings and notes). We've managed to get some third party software that lets us make custom forms, but having Office on the damn things (and again, a soft keyboard) would make them 10x more useful.

As you said, the Surface Pro looks like it can perform the task, but the cost, lack of included hardware, additional cost for Office, and the lack of battery life is a big downer. (I don't know if battery life could be improved; like the speed of light, limits on energy density and energy consumption are hard realities to deal with.)


I'm using the asus vivo Tab RT as my main tablet these days. Overall, exactly what I wanted. Office sans Outlook (which I sometimes miss), strong VPN support, a great screen, and runs NFL season pass like a dream.
 
2012-11-30 01:32:50 PM

ForgotMyTowel: BullBearMS: ForgotMyTowel: You work with some kind of CAD program, like AutoCAD for example, at your desktop. You're in the middle of updating some designs and you need to take a look at the actual layout. With the Surface Pro you can have a full version of AutoCAD installed, with the exact same interface and capabilities as the version on your desktop(because they are the same version).

You know what else lets you run AutoCAD on the go? An ultrabook with double the battery life and a much, much, better screen resolution. Not to mention a discrete GPU with CUDA support.

Also, AutoCAD isn't capable of using a touch interface at all, so why would you want to run it on a device with a touch screen?.

AutoCAD can use a touch interface, you just can't "draw" with it. Instead you'd use the stylus the same way you would a mouse. Remember, AutoCAD won't know it's running on a tablet, it'll think it's on a standard desktop with a mouse and keyboard. Also, AutoCAD was one example I came up with off the top of my head. There are many other different programs across many industries that don't translate well to tablets because of limited processing power or other limitations of the architecture.

As far as an ultrabook being better, I imagine in many cases an ultrabook or laptop would be better. There are also instances where it's nice to have the conveniences of a tablet and it's simplified UI with the ability to switch over to work mode and run your full suite of desktop programs from one device. I'm not saying it's a one size fits all solution, but it fills the gap between ultrabooks and tablets. People will always be able to say "yeah but in this situation, device X would be better!" and they're normally right. But suffice to say, there is a demand for more powerful and capable tablets from the business world and MS is looking to meet it. How well they do it remains to be seen....


autocad really needs a tailor-made version for a touchscreen/stylus setup, as it is there's too many daily routine shortcuts that get cut out just porting over an existing version to a touchscreen or a stylus input, on top of a touchscreen device generally not having the hardware to run large projects very well, same goes for photoshop

someday i hope it happens before everybody that uses that stuff gets arthritis in their index fingers
 
2012-11-30 01:36:43 PM

Kazan: mcreadyblue: Why?

the Windows Surface RT is designed to compete with iPad, etc and the hardware is designed to so

Windows Surface Pro is designed to compete with Ultrabooks, but it fills a niche where a lot of corporate IT users want a tablet format, but with Ultrabook features.

The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.


it's a problem from a larger-market POV, as in being the middle child between the less expensive larger tablet market and the similarly priced larger laptop market

but who knows, maybe in 5 years it'll have carved something out - especially as specs get better, having a successful microsoft tablet is better for the tablet market than just having Apple vs. loss-leading Amazon & Google
 
2012-11-30 01:38:29 PM
Hey Steve...

Having to keep it plugged into a wall most of the time defeats the point of a tablet completely.
 
2012-11-30 01:41:13 PM

Kazan: The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.


This is true, and it's an extraordinarily bad decision on Microsoft's part to use near-identical design and branding for two products which are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

Consumer confusion abounds. And it could have been prevented had they spent a modicum more effort on their marketing strategies.
 
2012-11-30 01:53:43 PM

poot_rootbeer: Kazan: The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

This is true, and it's an extraordinarily bad decision on Microsoft's part to use near-identical design and branding for two products which are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

Consumer confusion abounds. And it could have been prevented had they spent a modicum more effort on their marketing strategies.


Yeah this has been MS's biggest problem so far. The marketing is pretty confusing between Windows RT, Windows 8 , Windows 8 Pro, Surface, Surface pro, Metro, Desktop, etc. While the idea behind it is to have a unified UI for phones, tablets and desktops to increase consistency, the marketing has actually created more confusion than anything. Just look at this Fark thread and others, you consistently have people confusing features and limitations of one MS product for those of another. It's a mess.
 
2012-11-30 01:56:06 PM

poot_rootbeer: Kazan: The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

This is true, and it's an extraordinarily bad decision on Microsoft's part to use near-identical design and branding for two products which are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

Consumer confusion abounds. And it could have been prevented had they spent a modicum more effort on their marketing strategies.


Now that is a more intelligent criticism. even if they stuck with the same designs simply using different names would have been better. certainly would have led to less confusion/user education issues.
 
2012-11-30 02:05:37 PM

ForgotMyTowel: poot_rootbeer: Kazan: The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

This is true, and it's an extraordinarily bad decision on Microsoft's part to use near-identical design and branding for two products which are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

Consumer confusion abounds. And it could have been prevented had they spent a modicum more effort on their marketing strategies.

Yeah this has been MS's biggest problem so far. The marketing is pretty confusing between Windows RT, Windows 8 , Windows 8 Pro, Surface, Surface pro, Metro, Desktop, etc. While the idea behind it is to have a unified UI for phones, tablets and desktops to increase consistency, the marketing has actually created more confusion than anything. Just look at this Fark thread and others, you consistently have people confusing features and limitations of one MS product for those of another. It's a mess.


i.imgur.com

Not a new problem.
 
2012-11-30 02:09:21 PM
The entire "RT" branding is a failure. They should have given the Pro and the RT completely different names and then just called them "Windows 8" and something else, like "Metro" (I know it's just the UI). Then you could advertise your ultrabook/tablet line as Windows 8 (of which Metro app support would be a selling point) and your regular tablet/phone line as just Metro w/ no mention of Windows because that's going to confuse the crap out of most people.

"But this box says 'for Windows 7' why can't I run it on my Windows 8 tablet!? 8 is more than 7!!!"
 
2012-11-30 02:11:25 PM

Surool: Having to keep it plugged into a wall most of the time defeats the point of a tablet completely.


If you don't want it is, maybe you shouldn't comment on it.
 
2012-11-30 02:13:52 PM

THX 1138: Manufacturers are constantly competing for "Thinner, lighter, more portable!" which reduces the space required for a battery inside the enclosure. I wouldn't balk at a tablet that's two millimetres thicker and an ounce heavier if it meant significant battery life improvement.


This. We've blown straight through the wall of diminishing returns with thinness and lightness. Yet, Apple keeps pushing it. So here we are. Everyone happy? No? Didn't think so.
 
2012-11-30 02:15:42 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: If you don't want it is,


If you don't know what it is, even....
 
2012-11-30 02:21:36 PM
Truth be told, I'm actually interested, now that I know it has a pen. I've been looking for something to replace the ancient pen-based XP TabletPC I've been using for artwork. Using my sausage-like fingers on an iPad (or one of those iPad pens, which is like trying to draw with a pencil eraser) just isn't gonna cut it; I want real Photoshop on a real(ish) computer.

/wait til they hit the clearance racks/ebay at 80% off
 
2012-11-30 02:37:14 PM
I'd rather have a useful tablet with a 4 hour battery life than a worthless dust collecting brick (*cough*iPad*cough*) with any amount of battery life.

This thing is infinitely more capable than any existing tablet.

Gimme one of these for work and a Chromebook for home and I'm happy.
 
2012-11-30 02:39:06 PM

Moopy Mac: Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?

About 2010.


Depends on if we're talking theoretical or actual. ACTUAL laptops die after around 3 hours of real use and anyone who claims otherwise is lying.
 
2012-11-30 02:39:06 PM
God, what a disaster. A tablet about as powerful as last years ultra books. It's too bad the only successful ultra books were Apple ones. The plastic glut of shiatty PC ultra books kind of just sat on shelves.

Don't get me wrong... I think the surface pro direction is the destiny of laptop computing, in fact, I envision that less than 10 years will eliminate the form factor entirely.

But really, it's too expensive for the performance, and the battery life sucks. I have a hard time envisioning doing full on work with it.

Want your sweet tablet to be a low performing pseudo brick? Let some giant corp it department ruin it with enforced Active Directory policies and software. I bet the RON PAUL brigade at my former bank IT position love it. They would buy a shiny turd with an MS logo on because "not apple". Then spend six months crying about shiatty plastic, heat problems, nonexistent battery life, pre installed shovelware.

Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.
 
2012-11-30 02:41:13 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: I'd rather have a useful tablet with a 4 hour battery life than a worthless dust collecting brick (*cough*iPad*cough*) with any amount of battery life.

This thing is infinitely more capable than any existing tablet.

Gimme one of these for work and a Chromebook for home and I'm happy.


Do you have an iPad collecting dust somewhere?
 
2012-11-30 02:43:54 PM

neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.


Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.
 
2012-11-30 02:46:14 PM
So I guess I'll take another look at the ThinkPad 2.

Whenever the hell Lenovo gets around to releasing it...
 
2012-11-30 02:46:35 PM

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: I'd rather have a useful tablet with a 4 hour battery life than a worthless dust collecting brick (*cough*iPad*cough*) with any amount of battery life.

This thing is infinitely more capable than any existing tablet.

Gimme one of these for work and a Chromebook for home and I'm happy.

Do you have an iPad collecting dust somewhere?


Wife got one from work. It got a ton of use for a few weeks. Now it spends its life in a drawer because it isn't appreciably more useful than a modern smartphone to make it worth digging out. But since it's in a drawer, I suppose the dust is kept off.
 
2012-11-30 02:49:29 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: I'd rather have a useful tablet with a 4 hour battery life than a worthless dust collecting brick (*cough*iPad*cough*) with any amount of battery life.

This thing is infinitely more capable than any existing tablet.

Gimme one of these for work and a Chromebook for home and I'm happy.

Do you have an iPad collecting dust somewhere?

Wife got one from work. It got a ton of use for a few weeks. Now it spends its life in a drawer because it isn't appreciably more useful than a modern smartphone to make it worth digging out. But since it's in a drawer, I suppose the dust is kept off.


(Also, it has web rendering issues, especially with dynamic content...e.g. on shopping site search results, but that's probably more due to Safari)
 
2012-11-30 02:50:03 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Wife got one from work. It got a ton of use for a few weeks. Now it spends its life in a drawer because it isn't appreciably more useful than a modern smartphone to make it worth digging out. But since it's in a drawer, I suppose the dust is kept off.


That's pretty much how ours went. Same exact thing. Wife got one from work to evaluate, basically came to the conclusion it was useless as anything but a toy, so we played silly little games on it for a few weeks and then it became little more than a convenient web browsing device.

But at $500 I'll deal with the extra 5-10 seconds it takes for the laptop I still need in addition to come out of sleep.
 
2012-11-30 02:52:00 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.


How is comparing Apple to individual windows laptop vendors dishonest? They are in fact an individual laptop maker. Fact: MBP crushed every single individual PC vendor in laptop unit sales. Period. Ok if you mash all the other laptop vendors together and compare them to Apple all by themselves, yes, more windows units sold.
 
2012-11-30 02:56:25 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.


That's not dishonest. No one's comparing OS there. No one said OS X is crushing Windows they said Apple's crushing other manufacturers, which... alright, still not accurate but Apple's definitely having good growth there.

cdn3.pcadvisor.co.uk
I couldn't find one that was just laptops, but here's to hoping Apple being a miserable failure in desktops and a runaway success in pads balance out a bit. Fantastic growth... still pretty terrible market share.
 
2012-11-30 02:57:13 PM

neongoats: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

How is comparing Apple to individual windows laptop vendors dishonest? They are in fact an individual laptop maker. Fact: MBP crushed every single individual PC vendor in laptop unit sales. Period. Ok if you mash all the other laptop vendors together and compare them to Apple all by themselves, yes, more windows units sold.


You're asking how comparing sales of a company that is the sole proprietor of their platform to those of individual companies who compete across a licensed platform is dishonest? Really? It's so fundamentally flawed from a logical standpoint that I don't even know how to break it down any further.

The only meaningful comparison is by platform.
 
2012-11-30 02:58:06 PM

ProfessorOhki: I couldn't find one that was just laptops, but here's to hoping Apple being a miserable failure in desktops and a runaway success in pads balance out a bit. Fantastic growth... still pretty terrible market share.


Ah, I was looking at the 2010 % share. Yeah, 2011 ain't bad at all.
 
2012-11-30 03:02:56 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

How is comparing Apple to individual windows laptop vendors dishonest? They are in fact an individual laptop maker. Fact: MBP crushed every single individual PC vendor in laptop unit sales. Period. Ok if you mash all the other laptop vendors together and compare them to Apple all by themselves, yes, more windows units sold.

You're asking how comparing sales of a company that is the sole proprietor of their platform to those of individual companies who compete across a licensed platform is dishonest? Really? It's so fundamentally flawed from a logical standpoint that I don't even know how to break it down any further.

The only meaningful comparison is by platform.


Bullshiat. MacBooks run Windows just fine; they use the same Intel cores. They're a PC manufacturer. You can either compare OS X v. Windows or you can compare Apple v. Dell v. Lenovo v. Toshiba v. HP. Comparing Apple mfg v. Windows is about as meaningful as comparing Dodge v. Cars w/o hemi engines.
 
2012-11-30 03:03:52 PM

ProfessorOhki: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

That's not dishonest. No one's comparing OS there. No one said OS X is crushing Windows they said Apple's crushing other manufacturers, which... alright, still not accurate but Apple's definitely having good growth there.

[cdn3.pcadvisor.co.uk image 500x309]
I couldn't find one that was just laptops, but here's to hoping Apple being a miserable failure in desktops and a runaway success in pads balance out a bit. Fantastic growth... still pretty terrible market share.


I won't argue Apple's growth. I am merely disputing the misleading manufacturer claim, because if Microsoft decided to only let one company sell Windows laptops...say, Lenovo...then they (Lenovo in this case) would almost immediately become the top manufacturer, assuming pricing was unaffected. The comparison is silly.
 
2012-11-30 03:06:05 PM

ProfessorOhki: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

How is comparing Apple to individual windows laptop vendors dishonest? They are in fact an individual laptop maker. Fact: MBP crushed every single individual PC vendor in laptop unit sales. Period. Ok if you mash all the other laptop vendors together and compare them to Apple all by themselves, yes, more windows units sold.

You're asking how comparing sales of a company that is the sole proprietor of their platform to those of individual companies who compete across a licensed platform is dishonest? Really? It's so fundamentally flawed from a logical standpoint that I don't even know how to break it down any further.

The only meaningful comparison is by platform.

Bullshiat. MacBooks run Windows just fine; they use the same Intel cores. They're a PC manufacturer. You can either compare OS X v. Windows or you can compare Apple v. Dell v. Lenovo v. Toshiba v. HP. Comparing Apple mfg v. Windows is about as meaningful as comparing Dodge v. Cars w/o hemi engines.


farm2.staticflickr.com
 
2012-11-30 03:08:17 PM

Kazan: mcreadyblue: Why?

the Windows Surface RT is designed to compete with iPad, etc and the hardware is designed to so

Windows Surface Pro is designed to compete with Ultrabooks, but it fills a niche where a lot of corporate IT users want a tablet format, but with Ultrabook features.

The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.


This. Windows has once again made the mistake of using the same name for two different products. The Surface RT and its OS should have completely different names from the Windows 8-capable device.
 
2012-11-30 03:09:04 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

How is comparing Apple to individual windows laptop vendors dishonest? They are in fact an individual laptop maker. Fact: MBP crushed every single individual PC vendor in laptop unit sales. Period. Ok if you mash all the other laptop vendors together and compare them to Apple all by themselves, yes, more windows units sold.

You're asking how comparing sales of a company that is the sole proprietor of their platform to those of individual companies who compete across a licensed platform is dishonest? Really? It's so fundamentally flawed from a logical standpoint that I don't even know how to break it down any further.

The only meaningful comparison is by platform.


What are you on about. You aren't locked into using OSX on a Mac. You know that, right? You aren't forever a slave to the apple software platform. Windows runs natively, just fine on any intel Mac. I'm typing to you from windows 7 on my MBP. Is it because the MBP didn't ship with windows that its not a fair comparison? I didn't realize that spending 60 bucks on an OEM copy of windows means comparing Apple to other computer vendors was UNFAIR.

Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.
 
2012-11-30 03:09:05 PM

farkeruk: /don't buy Moleskines. You aren't going to turn into Ernest Hemingway because of it.


No but you will turn into a starving writer after spending all of your food money on a notebook.
 
2012-11-30 03:11:00 PM

neongoats: Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.


Are you TRYING to sound dumb or does it just come naturally? I ask this because your argument is so self-evidently absurd that it doesn't deserve any other response.
 
2012-11-30 03:14:19 PM

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: ProfessorOhki: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

That's not dishonest. No one's comparing OS there. No one said OS X is crushing Windows they said Apple's crushing other manufacturers, which... alright, still not accurate but Apple's definitely having good growth there.

[cdn3.pcadvisor.co.uk image 500x309]
I couldn't find one that was just laptops, but here's to hoping Apple being a miserable failure in desktops and a runaway success in pads balance out a bit. Fantastic growth... still pretty terrible market share.

I won't argue Apple's growth. I am merely disputing the misleading manufacturer claim, because if Microsoft decided to only let one company sell Windows laptops...say, Lenovo...then they (Lenovo in this case) would almost immediately become the top manufacturer, assuming pricing was unaffected. The comparison is silly.


Yes, and if that happened Lenovo WOULD be the top manufacturer, but that hasn't happened, so Apple is. For the sake of comparing leaning manufacturer, OS does not matter at all in the comparison. You've got to keep your groupings consistent: none of this iOS v. HTC, iPhone v. Verizon, Windows v. MacBook garbage. Unless the things you're comparing can be described with the same categorization: carrier, model, manufacturer, OS, etc the comparison is worthless.

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: farm2.staticflickr.com


I'm not sure what the straws mean. I know people with MBP who only run Win7 and Linux. They liked the loops and the weight/battery life. Also, the whole single-manufacturer thing does help out a bit with getting consistent Linux driver support as opposed to the crap-shoot of "oh god, which wifi chipset does THIS model use."

/And this is coming from someone who dislikes Apple
//Stop making me indirectly defend them, please?
 
2012-11-30 03:16:30 PM

ProfessorOhki: comparing leaning manufacturer


*Leading

ProfessorOhki: They liked the loops and the weight/battery life.


*Looks


Apparently, today is not a good day to Internet.
 
2012-11-30 03:22:31 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: neongoats: Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.

Are you TRYING to sound dumb or does it just come naturally? I ask this because your argument is so self-evidently absurd that it doesn't deserve any other response.


Are you? Counter my argument, asshole, or stfu. You can't, because my point is built upon verifiable fact. Fact: the MBP has outsold every other laptop manufacturer for several years running. They have a still growing market presence, with little signs of a slowdown.

Show me one, SINGLE non apple laptop manufacture that can boast the same thing. You cannot.
 
2012-11-30 03:28:34 PM

ForgotMyTowel: For those trying to understand what the Surface Pro is and why it is spec'd the way it is, let me run this scenario by you:

Suppose you're an engineer and at some factory somewhere. You work with some kind of CAD program, like AutoCAD for example, at your desktop. You're in the middle of updating some designs and you need to take a look at the actual layout. With the Surface Pro you can have a full version of AutoCAD installed, with the exact same interface and capabilities as the version on your desktop(because they are the same version). That allows you to grab the tablet, go downstairs and take a look at whatever it is you're designing and make complicated changes with the full version of AutoCAD installed on your tablet right there. When you're done, you can go back upstairs and continue working on your desktop, all seamlessly. Now I know that there are AutoDesk released an app for iOS and Android but they're a different layout and no where near full featured. It's also somewhat limited in what file types it can use and how it uses them. In addition, the iOS and Android tablets are using low powered processors which are slow and cumbersome (or just not capable) when looking at large DWG files.

In addition to this, from an IT perspective it's also very convenient. Since the Surface Pro is running Win8 Pro, it can seamlessly integrate with your domain and take all the GPOs and other security software. There's no need to try to shoehorn the software into the company network like you'd have to do with Android or iOS. Also, from a user perspective, the UI is identical whether you're on a tablet or desktop. You can configure you tablet to run exactly like you desktop with all the desktop programs OR you can configure it to use the more tablet friendly Metro style apps.

This all is very ambitious on MS's part and I'm skeptical that they can pull it off. But the vision, once you understand it, is actually pretty straight forward and not all that off the ...


Or, how about using an iPad with Remote Desktop. You get the portability and battery life of the iPad and the power of your workstation! I got tired of synchronizing files between my laptop and desktop so I just used RDP to access my desktop. It was almost seamless switching to an iPad(w/ Bluetooth keyboard) when I got tired of lugging around the laptop.
 
2012-11-30 03:33:17 PM

neongoats: Vegan Meat Popsicle: neongoats: Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.

Are you TRYING to sound dumb or does it just come naturally? I ask this because your argument is so self-evidently absurd that it doesn't deserve any other response.

Are you? Counter my argument, asshole, or stfu. You can't, because my point is built upon verifiable fact. Fact: the MBP has outsold every other laptop manufacturer for several years running. They have a still growing market presence, with little signs of a slowdown.

Show me one, SINGLE non apple laptop manufacture that can boast the same thing. You cannot.


umm what?
Link

www.notebookcheck.net
 
2012-11-30 03:35:27 PM

neongoats: Vegan Meat Popsicle: neongoats: Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.

Are you TRYING to sound dumb or does it just come naturally? I ask this because your argument is so self-evidently absurd that it doesn't deserve any other response.

Are you? Counter my argument, asshole, or stfu. You can't, because my point is built upon verifiable fact. Fact: the MBP has outsold every other laptop manufacturer for several years running. They have a still growing market presence, with little signs of a slowdown.

Show me one, SINGLE non apple laptop manufacture that can boast the same thing. You cannot.


and what? Link

allthingsd.com
 
2012-11-30 03:35:49 PM
Tobin_Lam:

That's what I use at home to play Baldurs Gate 2 on my droid tablet, chilling on the couch instead of at a computer, heh. I
 
2012-11-30 03:37:43 PM

olapbill: neongoats: Vegan Meat Popsicle: neongoats: Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.

Are you TRYING to sound dumb or does it just come naturally? I ask this because your argument is so self-evidently absurd that it doesn't deserve any other response.

Are you? Counter my argument, asshole, or stfu. You can't, because my point is built upon verifiable fact. Fact: the MBP has outsold every other laptop manufacturer for several years running. They have a still growing market presence, with little signs of a slowdown.

Show me one, SINGLE non apple laptop manufacture that can boast the same thing. You cannot.

umm what?
Link

[www.notebookcheck.net image 800x406]


Ok you got me, ONE laptop maker other than Apple grew.. My bad.
 
2012-11-30 03:42:46 PM

neongoats: olapbill: neongoats: Vegan Meat Popsicle: neongoats: Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.

Are you TRYING to sound dumb or does it just come naturally? I ask this because your argument is so self-evidently absurd that it doesn't deserve any other response.

Are you? Counter my argument, asshole, or stfu. You can't, because my point is built upon verifiable fact. Fact: the MBP has outsold every other laptop manufacturer for several years running. They have a still growing market presence, with little signs of a slowdown.

Show me one, SINGLE non apple laptop manufacture that can boast the same thing. You cannot.

umm what?
Link

[www.notebookcheck.net image 800x406]

Ok you got me, ONE laptop maker other than Apple grew.. My bad.


no worries. I just like a google challenge.
 
2012-11-30 03:45:04 PM
You know, I have a 7" tablet myself and it's great for reading, light web surfing, bringing to the bathroom when I poop, etc. But it's so painful to type on that I hardly ever use it even for the simplest forum posts or emails. I still think, for the average person, tablets are media consumption devices.

I know there are lots of people who claim they use their iPads for real work and then describe some obscure use case that, indeed, seems well suited to a tablet. To me, the only thing the Surface brings to the table is that it can extend the tablet's capability in a few more niche use cases.

I'm just not seeing a compelling reason for corporate America to buy a Surface over a nice laptop with better battery life, a larger screen and a high-quality keyboard.
 
2012-11-30 04:06:04 PM

neongoats: Show me one, SINGLE non apple laptop manufacture that can boast the same thing. You cannot.


Who's saying your not saying true things? Nobody's saying that your comments aren't completely factual. They're pointless. That's an entirely different thing. You could also say that sky is blue. It would certainly be a fact and an equally irrelevant one.

You're picking and choosing stupid metrics because you're trying to have a stupid argument that serves no useful purpose, you know it, and you don't care because you're too dishonest to just stick to the discussion at hand.
 
2012-11-30 04:08:55 PM
Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.
 
2012-11-30 04:12:59 PM

psy5ive: I'm an Apple guy, but I really like the idea of the Surface Pro. I don't think it's overpriced or the battery life is that bad for what it is.

I really like the idea of having a Tablet/Ultrabook in one. I've been going back and forth about getting a MacBook Air, and I think that I'll just continue to wait. Since the Surface Pro is x86-based, it's just a matter of time before someone shoehorns Ubuntu or OS X on it anyway.

I'm game for it, but count me out as an early adopter.


I have the 11" Macbook air and it is probably the best Apple computer/laptop I have ever owned. The 2.2 lbs and ultra portability make it just amazing to use. I decided to go all out and I ordered it with the 2.0 i7 processor and 8GB of ram and it is very very quick. I use to take my ipad everywhere but with this being the same screen size I just said screw it and took this instead. I would definitely recommend one they are easily worth the cash and perfect for someone who is wanting an ultrabook.
 
2012-11-30 04:19:00 PM

ongbok: Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.


Because some people have really creepy relationships with technology companies and react as violently to any perceived competitor in the market as if somebody were threatening their spouse.

It's weird.
 
2012-11-30 04:55:49 PM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: ongbok: Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.

Because some people have really creepy relationships with technology companies and react as violently to any perceived competitor in the market as if somebody were threatening their spouse.

It's weird.


I've often wondered if people are like this with other manufactured goods. Are there threads full of flamewars between Skil users and DeWalt users? Do Hoover owners think Dyson owners are inferior people? If your choice of brand defines you as a person to the point that you feel the need to hurl insults and slights at others who chose differently it's time to take a step back and reevaluate your life a little bit because frankly, that's pretty damn pathetic.
 
2012-11-30 04:55:54 PM
"If you've ever wanted to pay $1000 for a tablet with a battery life of four hours and a completely sucky OS, die die die Windows, die die die in a fire, god I hate you so much, do we have good news for you"

Fixed that for you subby
 
2012-11-30 05:03:04 PM

BullBearMS: At that price, you're not competing against an iPad. You're competing against a Macbook Air with an eight hour battery life

Dude Apple's own webpage don't even say that unless you get the bigger 13" model
 
2012-11-30 05:19:02 PM

ongbok: Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.


Because the Surface is a tablet and the Surface Pro should be the Pro version of the Surface? You can't really blame consumers that much. It's pretty much what the deserve for naming their product after form factor rather than role. Imagine if Apple'd named the iPad the iPod XL. "Why doesn't this fit with my jogging armband?! This is the stupidest design for an MP3 player..."
 
2012-11-30 05:19:35 PM

ongbok: Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.


Because it shares its branding and industrial design with a sister device that IS a tablet?
 
2012-11-30 05:20:55 PM

ProfessorOhki: The entire "RT" branding is a failure. They should have given the Pro and the RT completely different names and then just called them "Windows 8" and something else, like "Metro" (I know it's just the UI). Then you could advertise your ultrabook/tablet line as Windows 8 (of which Metro app support would be a selling point) and your regular tablet/phone line as just Metro w/ no mention of Windows because that's going to confuse the crap out of most people.

"But this box says 'for Windows 7' why can't I run it on my Windows 8 tablet!? 8 is more than 7!!!"


If it came in a box, you're not going to be able to run it on either Surface.
 
2012-11-30 05:33:35 PM

ongbok: Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.


I think the Surface Pro detractors understand that. There are already excellent tablets on the market that are considerably cheaper and have better battery life.

IMO, Microsoft hasn't made a compelling case for why someone needs a tablet that runs Office. Aside from a few niche uses, what makes a Surface Pro better than a similarly-priced ultrabook or Macbook Air?
 
2012-11-30 05:39:08 PM

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: IMO, Microsoft hasn't made a compelling case for why someone needs a tablet that runs Office.


Rather they haven't made an argument why one would need a tablet like this to run Office. Would be far better to make Office work on existing tablets, than to try to get people to shell out a ton of money for a new piece of hardware just to use Office or what other app you may have in mind.
 
2012-11-30 05:40:34 PM

ongbok: It is a laptop with a tablet form factor.


So, it's a tablet.
 
2012-11-30 05:55:40 PM

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: ongbok: Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.

I think the Surface Pro detractors understand that. There are already excellent tablets on the market that are considerably cheaper and have better battery life.

IMO, Microsoft hasn't made a compelling case for why someone needs a tablet that runs Office. Aside from a few niche uses, what makes a Surface Pro better than a similarly-priced ultrabook or Macbook Air?


Touch screen, stylus, lighter, option for a keyboard dock. Other than that it IS an Ultrabook. All the same hardware plus a touch screen sans the keyboard. Thus compare it to an Ultrabook/Macbook Air, not an iPad.

I think it's pretty cool albeit I'd go for the Samsung XE700 if I decided I ever needed an intermediary portable device. My Desktop+Home Server+Phone meet all my needs.
 
2012-11-30 06:03:10 PM

Handsome B. Wonderful: ProfessorOhki: The entire "RT" branding is a failure. They should have given the Pro and the RT completely different names and then just called them "Windows 8" and something else, like "Metro" (I know it's just the UI). Then you could advertise your ultrabook/tablet line as Windows 8 (of which Metro app support would be a selling point) and your regular tablet/phone line as just Metro w/ no mention of Windows because that's going to confuse the crap out of most people.

"But this box says 'for Windows 7' why can't I run it on my Windows 8 tablet!? 8 is more than 7!!!"

If it came in a box, you're not going to be able to run it on either Surface.


TFA: Microsoft went public today with pricing for its Surface Pro PC/tablet devices -- the Intel-based ones running Windows 8 Pro that will allow users to run their existing third-party apps on the Desktop.

First link: The more powerful processor and higher-resolution display, along with full support for Windows desktop programs, should alleviate many of the concerns of early adopters who rejected the Surface RT.

Unless Win 8 can't run existing Windows code, which would be suicide on MS part; yes you will. But only on the Pro.

/It's more of a flattop than anything else
//Not to be confused with phablets like the Galaxy Note
///Gonna run out of stupid names for these form factors soon
 
2012-11-30 06:07:56 PM

dyhchong: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: ongbok: Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.

I think the Surface Pro detractors understand that. There are already excellent tablets on the market that are considerably cheaper and have better battery life.

IMO, Microsoft hasn't made a compelling case for why someone needs a tablet that runs Office. Aside from a few niche uses, what makes a Surface Pro better than a similarly-priced ultrabook or Macbook Air?

Touch screen, stylus, lighter, option for a keyboard dock. Other than that it IS an Ultrabook. All the same hardware plus a touch screen sans the keyboard. Thus compare it to an Ultrabook/Macbook Air, not an iPad.


If there's decent performance there, it could be phenomenal for Photoshop. Obviously not pro-grade like the Cintiq, but could definitely sway artists away from ultrabooks or iPad-level slates. 

/Convertible tablets have filled that decently up till now
//But detachable keyboard + nicer screen would seal the deal
 
2012-11-30 06:29:34 PM
"[quote all comments combined]"-People that have no idea how much it costs to license a full blown OS.
 
2012-11-30 07:07:01 PM

ProfessorOhki:

If it came in a box, you're not going to be able to run it on either Surface.

TFA: Microsoft went public today with pricing for its Surface Pro PC/tablet devices -- the Intel-based ones running Windows 8 Pro that will allow users to run their existing third-party apps on the Desktop.

First link: The more powerful processor and higher-resolution display, along with full support for Windows desktop programs, should alleviate many of the concerns of early adopters who rejected the Surface RT.

Unless Win 8 can't run existing Windows code, which would be suicide on MS part; yes you will. But only on the Pro.

/It's more of a flattop than anything else
//Not to be confused with phablets like the Galaxy Note
///Gonna run out of stupid names for these form factors soon


If it comes in a box it's going to be on a disc... the disc drive on the Surface is where exactly? I was pointing on the stupidity of the original argument.
 
2012-11-30 07:07:55 PM

neongoats: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

How is comparing Apple to individual windows laptop vendors dishonest? They are in fact an individual laptop maker. Fact: MBP crushed every single individual PC vendor in laptop unit sales. Period. Ok if you mash all the other laptop vendors together and compare them to Apple all by themselves, yes, more windows units sold.

You're asking how comparing sales of a company that is the sole proprietor of their platform to those of individual companies who compete across a licensed platform is dishonest? Really? It's so fundamentally flawed from a logical standpoint that I don't even know how to break it down any further.

The only meaningful comparison is by platform.

What are you on about. You aren't locked into using OSX on a Mac. You know that, right? You aren't forever a slave to the apple software platform. Windows runs natively, just fine on any intel Mac. I'm typing to you from windows 7 on my MBP. Is it because the MBP didn't ship with windows that its not a fair comparison? I didn't realize that spending 60 bucks on an OEM copy of windows means comparing Apple to other computer vendors was UNFAIR.

Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.


Having serviced quite a few MacBooks, I have to assume that people continue to buy them because they have more money than brains. I'm pretty sure that Apple hires interior designers as engineers with regard to their laptops. Seriously, I would buy an Acer before a MacBook anything.
 
2012-11-30 07:10:57 PM

Handsome B. Wonderful: ProfessorOhki:

If it came in a box, you're not going to be able to run it on either Surface.

TFA: Microsoft went public today with pricing for its Surface Pro PC/tablet devices -- the Intel-based ones running Windows 8 Pro that will allow users to run their existing third-party apps on the Desktop.

First link: The more powerful processor and higher-resolution display, along with full support for Windows desktop programs, should alleviate many of the concerns of early adopters who rejected the Surface RT.

Unless Win 8 can't run existing Windows code, which would be suicide on MS part; yes you will. But only on the Pro.

/It's more of a flattop than anything else
//Not to be confused with phablets like the Galaxy Note
///Gonna run out of stupid names for these form factors soon

If it comes in a box it's going to be on a disc... the disc drive on the Surface is where exactly? I was pointing on the stupidity of the original argument.


You're right, someone might have to invent a way to network mount a CD drive. I hope they can rise to this monumental and, until now, undiscovered challenge *eye roll*
 
2012-11-30 07:12:21 PM

ProfessorOhki: Handsome B. Wonderful: ProfessorOhki:

If it came in a box, you're not going to be able to run it on either Surface.

TFA: Microsoft went public today with pricing for its Surface Pro PC/tablet devices -- the Intel-based ones running Windows 8 Pro that will allow users to run their existing third-party apps on the Desktop.

First link: The more powerful processor and higher-resolution display, along with full support for Windows desktop programs, should alleviate many of the concerns of early adopters who rejected the Surface RT.

Unless Win 8 can't run existing Windows code, which would be suicide on MS part; yes you will. But only on the Pro.

/It's more of a flattop than anything else
//Not to be confused with phablets like the Galaxy Note
///Gonna run out of stupid names for these form factors soon

If it comes in a box it's going to be on a disc... the disc drive on the Surface is where exactly? I was pointing on the stupidity of the original argument.

You're right, someone might have to invent a way to network mount a CD drive. I hope they can rise to this monumental and, until now, undiscovered challenge *eye roll*


Or, you know, just use a USB attached optical drive.
 
2012-11-30 07:15:40 PM

ProfessorOhki: I hope they can rise to this monumental and, until now, undiscovered challenge *eye roll*


I thought that the Surface Pro had a USB port so you could plug in an external DVD reader when you needed to load software.

On Lenovo, their ultrabooks have one huge problem, IMHO. They have an SSD drive, but they also have a regular record player in there too. Take out the spinning disk entirely, replace it with a SSD drive, and most importantly redesign it so it doesn't have the heat & power requirements a spinning disk does. Not sure why they haven't done that last step yet.
 
2012-11-30 07:19:45 PM
I take it back- it looks like the Yoga has native SSD. What's the advantage of a Surface Pro over a Yoga?
 
2012-11-30 07:22:55 PM
Wow, this is clearly a game changer. It's going to be bigger than the Kin2 and the Zune put together!
 
2012-11-30 07:28:19 PM

The Jami Turman Fan Club: I take it back- it looks like the Yoga has native SSD. What's the advantage of a Surface Pro over a Yoga?


1920x1080 v. 1600 x 900 if that's important to you. Going off photos, I sort of think the Yoga's convertible design is iffy. In tablet form, you're got the keyboard on the back and it seems like it would be unpleasant to hold or a great way to get the keyboard filthy in easel configuration.
 
2012-11-30 07:57:10 PM

DieAchtung: People that have no idea how much it costs to license a full blown OS.


I somehow don't think Microsoft is worried about paying license fees for Windows....
 
2012-11-30 07:58:31 PM

DieAchtung: "[quote all comments combined]"-People that have no idea how much it costs to license a full blown OS.


Seem to be a few companies that do it for free...
 
2012-11-30 08:49:13 PM
Cinaed:
Why would anyone buy the top-end model of any tablet?

Very late reply, but sadly, the answer is often "rich twits, executives with no budget constraints, and academics misusing their grant money to buy toys while their lab struggles to get by with an iMac from 1999".

/not bitter or anything
 
2012-11-30 09:00:18 PM

No Such Agency: Cinaed:
Why would anyone buy the top-end model of any tablet?

Very late reply, but sadly, the answer is often "rich twits, executives with no budget constraints, and academics misusing their grant money to buy toys while their lab struggles to get by with an iMac from 1999".

/not bitter or anything


I bet it's the stock Bondi blue and not one of the four exciting other colors too, isn't it?
 
2012-11-30 09:08:39 PM
ProfessorOhki:
I bet it's the stock Bondi blue and not one of the four exciting other colors too, isn't it?

Nah, that specific case was made up. But similar things happen all the time. Hell some profs have been known to buy their KIDS computers on their grant. Nobody bothers to blow the whistle because the cost isn't that much compared to a medium-priced experiment that ends up not working out and because nothing would be done about it anyway.

I bet the problem is 10x worse in business where half of execs are bona fide sociopaths.
 
2012-11-30 09:15:07 PM
There is no one ideal solution for everybody. The end.
 
2012-11-30 09:23:05 PM

xalres: Vegan Meat Popsicle: ongbok: Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.

Because some people have really creepy relationships with technology companies and react as violently to any perceived competitor in the market as if somebody were threatening their spouse.

It's weird.

I've often wondered if people are like this with other manufactured goods. Are there threads full of flamewars between Skil users and DeWalt users? Do Hoover owners think Dyson owners are inferior people? If your choice of brand defines you as a person to the point that you feel the need to hurl insults and slights at others who chose differently it's time to take a step back and reevaluate your life a little bit because frankly, that's pretty damn pathetic.


DeWalt is far better than Skil, and Dyson is a waste of money according to my gf's sister.
 
2012-11-30 10:05:24 PM

firegoat: xalres: Vegan Meat Popsicle: ongbok: Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.

Because some people have really creepy relationships with technology companies and react as violently to any perceived competitor in the market as if somebody were threatening their spouse.

It's weird.

I've often wondered if people are like this with other manufactured goods. Are there threads full of flamewars between Skil users and DeWalt users? Do Hoover owners think Dyson owners are inferior people? If your choice of brand defines you as a person to the point that you feel the need to hurl insults and slights at others who chose differently it's time to take a step back and reevaluate your life a little bit because frankly, that's pretty damn pathetic.

DeWalt is far better than Skil, and Dyson is a waste of money according to my gf's sister.


Ever been to the midwest?
I've seen fights break out over Chevy, Dodge, or Ford.
 
2012-11-30 11:02:39 PM

Marine1: THX 1138: Manufacturers are constantly competing for "Thinner, lighter, more portable!" which reduces the space required for a battery inside the enclosure. I wouldn't balk at a tablet that's two millimetres thicker and an ounce heavier if it meant significant battery life improvement.

This. We've blown straight through the wall of diminishing returns with thinness and lightness. Yet, Apple keeps pushing it. So here we are. Everyone happy? No? Didn't think so.


Except for the part where none of Apple's thin and light devices get shiatty battery life like this?

The iPad 3 and iPad 4 are thicker than the iPad 2 because Apple had to increase the size of the battery if they were going to be able to drive a power hungry retina display all day,

Only shiatty engineers would just accept a pathetic battery life like this because they think thin is more important than functional.

Microsoft screwed the pooch on this one. Four hours of battery life is pathetic.
 
2012-11-30 11:13:21 PM

Mitt Romneys Tax Return: ongbok: Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.

I think the Surface Pro detractors understand that. There are already excellent tablets on the market that are considerably cheaper and have better battery life.

IMO, Microsoft hasn't made a compelling case for why someone needs a tablet that runs Office. Aside from a few niche uses, what makes a Surface Pro better than a similarly-priced ultrabook or Macbook Air?


A more important question would be why in the hell would you care about running Office on a touch screen when Office doesn't support touch? An ultrabook makes the experience of using Office on the go so much better.

Heck, you can even put an ultrabook on your lap and type on a real keyboard! Try that with a Surface. Fail!

Android and iOS both have Office document compatible word processors, spreadsheets, and presentation programs that actually bother to have touch interfaces. Why can't Microsoft get this right?
 
2012-11-30 11:26:48 PM

BullBearMS: Mitt Romneys Tax Return: ongbok: Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.

I think the Surface Pro detractors understand that. There are already excellent tablets on the market that are considerably cheaper and have better battery life.

IMO, Microsoft hasn't made a compelling case for why someone needs a tablet that runs Office. Aside from a few niche uses, what makes a Surface Pro better than a similarly-priced ultrabook or Macbook Air?

A more important question would be why in the hell would you care about running Office on a touch screen when Office doesn't support touch? An ultrabook makes the experience of using Office on the go so much better.

Heck, you can even put an ultrabook on your lap and type on a real keyboard! Try that with a Surface. Fail!

Android and iOS both have Office document compatible word processors, spreadsheets, and presentation programs that actually bother to have touch interfaces. Why can't Microsoft get this right?


Use it on your lap with a real keyboard by using the keyboard dock that is specially designed for it?

Heck, you can even take the screen off and using it as a tablet! Try that with an Ultrabook. Fail!

It's designed as one device to rule them all, it's similar in price to an Ultrabook of the same spec (but with a higher res screen than most) and I'd imagine aimed at people who would buy both a laptop and a tablet. Also I see plenty of people propping up iPads and writing paragraph upon paragraph, so I hardly see a problem for them. Plus it adds functionality that someone just buying an Ultrabook wouldn't get buying an Ultrabook whilst offering all of the same options.
 
2012-11-30 11:39:37 PM

MayoSlather: IntertubeUser: Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.

And buying a Microsoft tablet for a grand so you can take better notes in a few classes is what?



To be fair, most Mac Airs are purchased to organize music collections, so it's not too much difference.
 
2012-11-30 11:44:59 PM

RexTalionis: Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?

Well, for tablet form factors, it's on the low side. Most ARM-based tablets (which everyone is used to) run around 8 hours in batteries. My Asus Transformer 300 runs around 10 hours (14 with the keyboard dock). I can go 4 or 5 days between charges on my Transformer.


This. I'm posting on an Acer A500 that I got last Xmas for my GF at Wally World for $320 (if my memory serves me) and I can go all day on it. I love having HDMI output so I can hook it to the flatscreen TV on trips and watch what I want. Mem card slots so I can have movies where there's no net connection. And USB slots so I can use mouse and KB if I want. Apple and M$ can keep their garbage.
 
2012-12-01 12:22:38 AM

IntertubeUser: Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.

 
2012-12-01 01:31:18 AM

snowshovel: MayoSlather: IntertubeUser: Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.

And buying a Microsoft tablet for a grand so you can take better notes in a few classes is what?

To be fair, most Mac Airs are purchased to organize music collections, so it's not too much difference.


And write bad poetry...

FormlessOne:
IntertubeUser: Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.

Christ, YES. Are people this farking stupid?
 
2012-12-01 01:58:54 AM

snowshovel: MayoSlather: IntertubeUser: Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.

And buying a Microsoft tablet for a grand so you can take better notes in a few classes is what?


To be fair, most Mac Airs are purchased to organize music collections, so it's not too much difference.


Many Macs around a grand are purchased to make iPhone apps with. Minis and Airs alike. It's a multi-billion-dollar business, look into it some time.

/all windows computers are for is collecting malware
 
2012-12-01 03:17:38 AM

LasersHurt: moothemagiccow: Kazan: Surface pro really isn't a tablet, it's an ultrabook in the form of a tablet

we all know how well those sold

I think you're thinking of netbooks? Ultrabooks are doing well.


So did netbooks. I bought a pre-ultrabook early last year. 3.3lbs, 11.6" 1366x768 screen, i7 processor for around $800. If I didn't already have this (I'm using it right now), I would have bought an ultrabook when they came out.
 
2012-12-01 03:45:47 AM

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Surool: Having to keep it plugged into a wall most of the time defeats the point of a tablet completely.

If you don't want it is, maybe you shouldn't comment on it.


I can comment in any thread I want you silly douche-nozzle. I see tons of negative comments about products on Fark, but I've never seen anyone dumb enough to suggest that you aren't allowed to comment on a product you don't want to buy.
 
2012-12-01 07:28:23 AM

Surool: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Surool: Having to keep it plugged into a wall most of the time defeats the point of a tablet completely.

If you don't want it is, maybe you shouldn't comment on it.

I can comment in any thread I want you silly douche-nozzle. I see tons of negative comments about products on Fark, but I've never seen anyone dumb enough to suggest that you aren't allowed to comment on a product you don't want to buy.


Really - now, someone who has owned and used a product can legitimately (if anecdotally) claim superior experience over a person who has no hands-on with a product - but that's not really the same thing.
 
2012-12-01 07:38:56 AM

dramatools: Pricing your tablet higher than Apple's doesn't make it better.


Also, Apple pricing their products higher than other peoples does not make them better either.
 
2012-12-01 07:40:26 AM

Benjimin_Dover: Apple and M$ can keep their garbage.


Now THIS is a comment I can agree with.
 
2012-12-01 08:12:45 AM
dready zim:

dready zim:


Oh you're just so COOL and ABOVE IT ALL! Aren't you the hippest fark since shiat.
 
2012-12-01 08:43:37 AM

IntertubeUser: farkeruk: IntertubeUser: Then you're pasting .pdf images into a .docx? How easily can you edit what's in the .pdf image itself? Besides, being able to write and the software automatically interpreting what you're writing into nice, clean, editable .docx notes seems a heck of a lot easier than what you're describing.

Show me a tablet someone automatically interpreting handwriting at a reasonable speed.

Typing...you're right. But I'm a math major. And I've seen other students with Asus tablets using Office in class and the handwriting recognition of Greek letters, integral and derivative notation, etc., is far faster than using Equation Editor. Also, drawing graphs and other diagrams...can't type that.

I might be alone here, but having editable math notes...that's a big deal for me.


If you're doing math and planning on staying in the field, you might as well sack up and learn LaTeX. Being slow at tex has hurt me more than anything else.
 
2012-12-01 10:38:12 AM

bingethinker: Kazan: mcreadyblue: Why?

the Windows Surface RT is designed to compete with iPad, etc and the hardware is designed to so

Windows Surface Pro is designed to compete with Ultrabooks, but it fills a niche where a lot of corporate IT users want a tablet format, but with Ultrabook features.

The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

This. Windows has once again made the mistake of using the same name for two different products. The Surface RT and its OS should have completely different names from the Windows 8-capable device.


This goes back to my comment that Windows 8 was Microsoft's worst business decision ever - integrating a tablet UI into a desktop OS. The Surface Pro is the only platform on which that decision makes 'sense', to abuse the word. The Surface Pro is a proper computer in a keyboard-less form factor - having the Fisher-Price touch interface on it is more usable than the old Start menu.

The Surface RT was intended to be an iPad competitor, but with MS Office pre-loaded for enhanced creativity, not just consumption. The Surface Pro is the ultimate market litmus test of the Frankenstein monster of Desktop + Metro. If it fails, the only justification for grafting the abysmal Metro UI onto the industry-standard PC OS fails.
 
2012-12-01 01:01:54 PM

RexTalionis: Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?

Well, for tablet form factors, it's on the low side. Most ARM-based tablets (which everyone is used to) run around 8 hours in batteries. My Asus Transformer 300 runs around 10 hours (14 with the keyboard dock). I can go 4 or 5 days between charges on my Transformer.


Yep, I just got a refurb transformer 300 and love the thing (woot had them with the keyboard dock included for 300 bucks a couple of weeks ago). The battery life is pretty awesome.
 
2012-12-01 08:23:36 PM
Okay, here's how I see it, if you care:

iPad: I've owned two of them. I loved them both. It's a solid tablet, and iOS is a really decent operating system. However, the prime problem with the iPad is the price. I always feel just plain wrong carrying around a tablet that costs that much, especially when I know that I can get a non-iOS tablet that can do just as much for around half the price. The other problem is that iTunes is a walled garden that doesn't offer an app if Apple doesn't consider it within their business plan. This means no emulators, for example, and I just don't like Apple being the gatekeeper when I disagree so much with their way of doing things. I especially find them hard to cope with when they sell the Mini for over $500... A ridiculous price by any measure.

Kindle Fire: This is the tablet I recommend to anyone who wants the "normal consumer" iPad experience without an iPad price. You get the same sort of simplified front-end, the same focus on media consumption, and the same walled-garden concept for app purchases. However, if you want to create media, the Kindle Fire is a poor choice because of the limited front-end. For me, this is a problem as I use my tablet to write, and without the ability to use a Bluetooth keyboard or run apps that aren't "optimized" for Kindle Fire, I find it wanting. For the average user, though, it's awesome for reading, watching movies, playing games, and consuming media.

Nook Color/Tablet: See "Kindle Fire" above, but with more expensive apps and a smaller selection of apps to choose from... Unless you hack it into a full-fledged Android tablet, then it's pretty decent, though limited by the fact that it's lagging behind on stable Android versions.

Other Android tablets: Of course, here there's another problem... There are so many crappy Android tablets out there that it's hard to judge the OS fairly. When it's on good hardware, it's great. When it's on lackluster hardware, it's a nightmare. I've had several Android tablets, and so far the only one that has been a good experience all-around is the Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 10.1" (or the 7" model, if you want the "mini" size). The ASUS Transformer is good, and if you don't mind very short battery life the Zeki isn't awful (but it's not great, either). The Nexus 7 is excellent except for the lack of an SD card slot (WHY, Google? WHY?).

Microsoft Surface and other Windows 8 tablets: Awesome idea, usually pretty decent hardware, but WAY overpriced. I like Windows 8 on my desktop, and it performs admirably on tablets. I just get back to my problem with the iPad when it comes to Surface and other Windows 8 tablets: I'm not happy wandering around with a tablet that costs over $500 when there are less-expensive, just-as-capable options.

And also, the commercials for Surface are just awful, and they drive me away from the product rather than making me want it.

I'm currently pretty happy with the 10" Galaxy Tab 2.0 -- It's just as good as my iPad was, but with a much lower price tag (right now) and the ability to use a Bluetooth mouse, which makes word processing a bit easier.
 
2012-12-01 10:08:01 PM

THX 1138: Manufacturers are constantly competing for "Thinner, lighter, more portable!" which reduces the space required for a battery inside the enclosure. I wouldn't balk at a tablet that's two millimetres thicker and an ounce heavier if it meant significant battery life improvement.


Agreed. Same with my phone.

I don't care how little or light it is. Keep it reasonable, but err on the side of more power.
 
2012-12-02 01:11:46 AM

ZeroCorpse: Okay, here's how I see it, if you care:

iPad: I've owned two of them.

-snip-

You can Jailbreak them you know. You shouldn't have to, but you can.
 
2012-12-02 01:18:23 AM

jso2897: Surool: Vegan Meat Popsicle: Surool: Having to keep it plugged into a wall most of the time defeats the point of a tablet completely.

If you don't want it is, maybe you shouldn't comment on it.

I can comment in any thread I want you silly douche-nozzle. I see tons of negative comments about products on Fark, but I've never seen anyone dumb enough to suggest that you aren't allowed to comment on a product you don't want to buy.

Really - now, someone who has owned and used a product can legitimately (if anecdotally) claim superior experience over a person who has no hands-on with a product - but that's not really the same thing.


So, according to you, I need to buy the battery vampire that can't be far from recharging before I can say that buying a battery vampire product is stupid?

"Truly, your logic is dizzying"

I guess if people like you didn't exist, no one would have ever bought a Zune.
 
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