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(ZDNet)   If you've ever wanted to pay $1000 for a tablet with a battery life of four hours, do we have good news for you   (zdnet.com) divider line 201
    More: Fail, pro, How Microsoft, John Wiley & Sons  
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10775 clicks; posted to Geek » on 30 Nov 2012 at 8:59 AM (1 year ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2012-11-30 01:09:09 PM  

mcreadyblue: Why?


the Windows Surface RT is designed to compete with iPad, etc and the hardware is designed to so

Windows Surface Pro is designed to compete with Ultrabooks, but it fills a niche where a lot of corporate IT users want a tablet format, but with Ultrabook features.

The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.
 
2012-11-30 01:09:56 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Vegan Meat Popsicle: ForgotMyTowel: Why would I want something more expensive and powerful with less battery life just to post updates to Facebook?

So, basically, it's a bad tablet because you don't understand it.

Or was your sarcasm ending meant to imply that you were aping the other poster?


they were aping the other poster.
 
2012-11-30 01:11:10 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: Vegan Meat Popsicle: ForgotMyTowel: Why would I want something more expensive and powerful with less battery life just to post updates to Facebook?

So, basically, it's a bad tablet because you don't understand it.

Or was your sarcasm ending meant to imply that you were aping the other poster?


That one.
 
2012-11-30 01:13:20 PM  

ForgotMyTowel: That one.


Hmm.... well, a little self-flagellation is in order then.
 
2012-11-30 01:15:31 PM  

ThreadSinger: IntertubeUser: As a student, I'm looking forward to taking notes in a classroom with this. OneNote recognizes the handwritten symbols and operators used in college-level math classes. I've been lusting after better ways of taking notes in class and recording lectures and it looks like the Surface Pro will work wonderfully.

My only gripe is that it won't have Office 2010 (or 2013) already installed; I'll have to buy that separately.

Comparing the Surface Pro to the iPad is stupid.

When the Surface RT was released, I was hoping it would have a full office suite for similar reasons. I don't care about "apps", etc, I wanted a tablet that could use Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Access, Projects, etc, play music and videos, and browse the web. Perfect for travel when working, especially with that softcover. Alas, it was not to be. 1000$ for hardware that can do all that is just too much, especially with the lack of touchpad AND office suites in the initial package. If Apple (or Android) sold a machine with a fully functional version of Office (and a softcover keyboard would be a bonus), I'd be sold quick.

I know most think of tablets as entertainment machines, and that's likely true, but we use iPads at the office as a replacement for paper in house and in the field (we're an environmental engineering company, a lot of forms and design drawings and notes). We've managed to get some third party software that lets us make custom forms, but having Office on the damn things (and again, a soft keyboard) would make them 10x more useful.

As you said, the Surface Pro looks like it can perform the task, but the cost, lack of included hardware, additional cost for Office, and the lack of battery life is a big downer. (I don't know if battery life could be improved; like the speed of light, limits on energy density and energy consumption are hard realities to deal with.)


I'm using the asus vivo Tab RT as my main tablet these days. Overall, exactly what I wanted. Office sans Outlook (which I sometimes miss), strong VPN support, a great screen, and runs NFL season pass like a dream.
 
2012-11-30 01:32:50 PM  

ForgotMyTowel: BullBearMS: ForgotMyTowel: You work with some kind of CAD program, like AutoCAD for example, at your desktop. You're in the middle of updating some designs and you need to take a look at the actual layout. With the Surface Pro you can have a full version of AutoCAD installed, with the exact same interface and capabilities as the version on your desktop(because they are the same version).

You know what else lets you run AutoCAD on the go? An ultrabook with double the battery life and a much, much, better screen resolution. Not to mention a discrete GPU with CUDA support.

Also, AutoCAD isn't capable of using a touch interface at all, so why would you want to run it on a device with a touch screen?.

AutoCAD can use a touch interface, you just can't "draw" with it. Instead you'd use the stylus the same way you would a mouse. Remember, AutoCAD won't know it's running on a tablet, it'll think it's on a standard desktop with a mouse and keyboard. Also, AutoCAD was one example I came up with off the top of my head. There are many other different programs across many industries that don't translate well to tablets because of limited processing power or other limitations of the architecture.

As far as an ultrabook being better, I imagine in many cases an ultrabook or laptop would be better. There are also instances where it's nice to have the conveniences of a tablet and it's simplified UI with the ability to switch over to work mode and run your full suite of desktop programs from one device. I'm not saying it's a one size fits all solution, but it fills the gap between ultrabooks and tablets. People will always be able to say "yeah but in this situation, device X would be better!" and they're normally right. But suffice to say, there is a demand for more powerful and capable tablets from the business world and MS is looking to meet it. How well they do it remains to be seen....


autocad really needs a tailor-made version for a touchscreen/stylus setup, as it is there's too many daily routine shortcuts that get cut out just porting over an existing version to a touchscreen or a stylus input, on top of a touchscreen device generally not having the hardware to run large projects very well, same goes for photoshop

someday i hope it happens before everybody that uses that stuff gets arthritis in their index fingers
 
2012-11-30 01:36:43 PM  

Kazan: mcreadyblue: Why?

the Windows Surface RT is designed to compete with iPad, etc and the hardware is designed to so

Windows Surface Pro is designed to compete with Ultrabooks, but it fills a niche where a lot of corporate IT users want a tablet format, but with Ultrabook features.

The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.


it's a problem from a larger-market POV, as in being the middle child between the less expensive larger tablet market and the similarly priced larger laptop market

but who knows, maybe in 5 years it'll have carved something out - especially as specs get better, having a successful microsoft tablet is better for the tablet market than just having Apple vs. loss-leading Amazon & Google
 
2012-11-30 01:38:29 PM  
Hey Steve...

Having to keep it plugged into a wall most of the time defeats the point of a tablet completely.
 
2012-11-30 01:41:13 PM  

Kazan: The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.


This is true, and it's an extraordinarily bad decision on Microsoft's part to use near-identical design and branding for two products which are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

Consumer confusion abounds. And it could have been prevented had they spent a modicum more effort on their marketing strategies.
 
2012-11-30 01:53:43 PM  

poot_rootbeer: Kazan: The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

This is true, and it's an extraordinarily bad decision on Microsoft's part to use near-identical design and branding for two products which are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

Consumer confusion abounds. And it could have been prevented had they spent a modicum more effort on their marketing strategies.


Yeah this has been MS's biggest problem so far. The marketing is pretty confusing between Windows RT, Windows 8 , Windows 8 Pro, Surface, Surface pro, Metro, Desktop, etc. While the idea behind it is to have a unified UI for phones, tablets and desktops to increase consistency, the marketing has actually created more confusion than anything. Just look at this Fark thread and others, you consistently have people confusing features and limitations of one MS product for those of another. It's a mess.
 
2012-11-30 01:56:06 PM  

poot_rootbeer: Kazan: The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

This is true, and it's an extraordinarily bad decision on Microsoft's part to use near-identical design and branding for two products which are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

Consumer confusion abounds. And it could have been prevented had they spent a modicum more effort on their marketing strategies.


Now that is a more intelligent criticism. even if they stuck with the same designs simply using different names would have been better. certainly would have led to less confusion/user education issues.
 
2012-11-30 02:05:37 PM  

ForgotMyTowel: poot_rootbeer: Kazan: The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

This is true, and it's an extraordinarily bad decision on Microsoft's part to use near-identical design and branding for two products which are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.

Consumer confusion abounds. And it could have been prevented had they spent a modicum more effort on their marketing strategies.

Yeah this has been MS's biggest problem so far. The marketing is pretty confusing between Windows RT, Windows 8 , Windows 8 Pro, Surface, Surface pro, Metro, Desktop, etc. While the idea behind it is to have a unified UI for phones, tablets and desktops to increase consistency, the marketing has actually created more confusion than anything. Just look at this Fark thread and others, you consistently have people confusing features and limitations of one MS product for those of another. It's a mess.


i.imgur.com

Not a new problem.
 
2012-11-30 02:09:21 PM  
The entire "RT" branding is a failure. They should have given the Pro and the RT completely different names and then just called them "Windows 8" and something else, like "Metro" (I know it's just the UI). Then you could advertise your ultrabook/tablet line as Windows 8 (of which Metro app support would be a selling point) and your regular tablet/phone line as just Metro w/ no mention of Windows because that's going to confuse the crap out of most people.

"But this box says 'for Windows 7' why can't I run it on my Windows 8 tablet!? 8 is more than 7!!!"
 
2012-11-30 02:11:25 PM  

Surool: Having to keep it plugged into a wall most of the time defeats the point of a tablet completely.


If you don't want it is, maybe you shouldn't comment on it.
 
2012-11-30 02:13:52 PM  

THX 1138: Manufacturers are constantly competing for "Thinner, lighter, more portable!" which reduces the space required for a battery inside the enclosure. I wouldn't balk at a tablet that's two millimetres thicker and an ounce heavier if it meant significant battery life improvement.


This. We've blown straight through the wall of diminishing returns with thinness and lightness. Yet, Apple keeps pushing it. So here we are. Everyone happy? No? Didn't think so.
 
2012-11-30 02:15:42 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: If you don't want it is,


If you don't know what it is, even....
 
2012-11-30 02:21:36 PM  
Truth be told, I'm actually interested, now that I know it has a pen. I've been looking for something to replace the ancient pen-based XP TabletPC I've been using for artwork. Using my sausage-like fingers on an iPad (or one of those iPad pens, which is like trying to draw with a pencil eraser) just isn't gonna cut it; I want real Photoshop on a real(ish) computer.

/wait til they hit the clearance racks/ebay at 80% off
 
2012-11-30 02:37:14 PM  
I'd rather have a useful tablet with a 4 hour battery life than a worthless dust collecting brick (*cough*iPad*cough*) with any amount of battery life.

This thing is infinitely more capable than any existing tablet.

Gimme one of these for work and a Chromebook for home and I'm happy.
 
2012-11-30 02:39:06 PM  

Moopy Mac: Kazan: also since when is 5 hours of battery life bad?

About 2010.


Depends on if we're talking theoretical or actual. ACTUAL laptops die after around 3 hours of real use and anyone who claims otherwise is lying.
 
2012-11-30 02:39:06 PM  
God, what a disaster. A tablet about as powerful as last years ultra books. It's too bad the only successful ultra books were Apple ones. The plastic glut of shiatty PC ultra books kind of just sat on shelves.

Don't get me wrong... I think the surface pro direction is the destiny of laptop computing, in fact, I envision that less than 10 years will eliminate the form factor entirely.

But really, it's too expensive for the performance, and the battery life sucks. I have a hard time envisioning doing full on work with it.

Want your sweet tablet to be a low performing pseudo brick? Let some giant corp it department ruin it with enforced Active Directory policies and software. I bet the RON PAUL brigade at my former bank IT position love it. They would buy a shiny turd with an MS logo on because "not apple". Then spend six months crying about shiatty plastic, heat problems, nonexistent battery life, pre installed shovelware.

Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.
 
2012-11-30 02:41:13 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: I'd rather have a useful tablet with a 4 hour battery life than a worthless dust collecting brick (*cough*iPad*cough*) with any amount of battery life.

This thing is infinitely more capable than any existing tablet.

Gimme one of these for work and a Chromebook for home and I'm happy.


Do you have an iPad collecting dust somewhere?
 
2012-11-30 02:43:54 PM  

neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.


Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.
 
2012-11-30 02:46:14 PM  
So I guess I'll take another look at the ThinkPad 2.

Whenever the hell Lenovo gets around to releasing it...
 
2012-11-30 02:46:35 PM  

Abe Vigoda's Ghost: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: I'd rather have a useful tablet with a 4 hour battery life than a worthless dust collecting brick (*cough*iPad*cough*) with any amount of battery life.

This thing is infinitely more capable than any existing tablet.

Gimme one of these for work and a Chromebook for home and I'm happy.

Do you have an iPad collecting dust somewhere?


Wife got one from work. It got a ton of use for a few weeks. Now it spends its life in a drawer because it isn't appreciably more useful than a modern smartphone to make it worth digging out. But since it's in a drawer, I suppose the dust is kept off.
 
2012-11-30 02:49:29 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Abe Vigoda's Ghost: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: I'd rather have a useful tablet with a 4 hour battery life than a worthless dust collecting brick (*cough*iPad*cough*) with any amount of battery life.

This thing is infinitely more capable than any existing tablet.

Gimme one of these for work and a Chromebook for home and I'm happy.

Do you have an iPad collecting dust somewhere?

Wife got one from work. It got a ton of use for a few weeks. Now it spends its life in a drawer because it isn't appreciably more useful than a modern smartphone to make it worth digging out. But since it's in a drawer, I suppose the dust is kept off.


(Also, it has web rendering issues, especially with dynamic content...e.g. on shopping site search results, but that's probably more due to Safari)
 
2012-11-30 02:50:03 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: Wife got one from work. It got a ton of use for a few weeks. Now it spends its life in a drawer because it isn't appreciably more useful than a modern smartphone to make it worth digging out. But since it's in a drawer, I suppose the dust is kept off.


That's pretty much how ours went. Same exact thing. Wife got one from work to evaluate, basically came to the conclusion it was useless as anything but a toy, so we played silly little games on it for a few weeks and then it became little more than a convenient web browsing device.

But at $500 I'll deal with the extra 5-10 seconds it takes for the laptop I still need in addition to come out of sleep.
 
2012-11-30 02:52:00 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.


How is comparing Apple to individual windows laptop vendors dishonest? They are in fact an individual laptop maker. Fact: MBP crushed every single individual PC vendor in laptop unit sales. Period. Ok if you mash all the other laptop vendors together and compare them to Apple all by themselves, yes, more windows units sold.
 
2012-11-30 02:56:25 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.


That's not dishonest. No one's comparing OS there. No one said OS X is crushing Windows they said Apple's crushing other manufacturers, which... alright, still not accurate but Apple's definitely having good growth there.

cdn3.pcadvisor.co.uk
I couldn't find one that was just laptops, but here's to hoping Apple being a miserable failure in desktops and a runaway success in pads balance out a bit. Fantastic growth... still pretty terrible market share.
 
2012-11-30 02:57:13 PM  

neongoats: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

How is comparing Apple to individual windows laptop vendors dishonest? They are in fact an individual laptop maker. Fact: MBP crushed every single individual PC vendor in laptop unit sales. Period. Ok if you mash all the other laptop vendors together and compare them to Apple all by themselves, yes, more windows units sold.


You're asking how comparing sales of a company that is the sole proprietor of their platform to those of individual companies who compete across a licensed platform is dishonest? Really? It's so fundamentally flawed from a logical standpoint that I don't even know how to break it down any further.

The only meaningful comparison is by platform.
 
2012-11-30 02:58:06 PM  

ProfessorOhki: I couldn't find one that was just laptops, but here's to hoping Apple being a miserable failure in desktops and a runaway success in pads balance out a bit. Fantastic growth... still pretty terrible market share.


Ah, I was looking at the 2010 % share. Yeah, 2011 ain't bad at all.
 
2012-11-30 03:02:56 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

How is comparing Apple to individual windows laptop vendors dishonest? They are in fact an individual laptop maker. Fact: MBP crushed every single individual PC vendor in laptop unit sales. Period. Ok if you mash all the other laptop vendors together and compare them to Apple all by themselves, yes, more windows units sold.

You're asking how comparing sales of a company that is the sole proprietor of their platform to those of individual companies who compete across a licensed platform is dishonest? Really? It's so fundamentally flawed from a logical standpoint that I don't even know how to break it down any further.

The only meaningful comparison is by platform.


Bullshiat. MacBooks run Windows just fine; they use the same Intel cores. They're a PC manufacturer. You can either compare OS X v. Windows or you can compare Apple v. Dell v. Lenovo v. Toshiba v. HP. Comparing Apple mfg v. Windows is about as meaningful as comparing Dodge v. Cars w/o hemi engines.
 
2012-11-30 03:03:52 PM  

ProfessorOhki: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

That's not dishonest. No one's comparing OS there. No one said OS X is crushing Windows they said Apple's crushing other manufacturers, which... alright, still not accurate but Apple's definitely having good growth there.

[cdn3.pcadvisor.co.uk image 500x309]
I couldn't find one that was just laptops, but here's to hoping Apple being a miserable failure in desktops and a runaway success in pads balance out a bit. Fantastic growth... still pretty terrible market share.


I won't argue Apple's growth. I am merely disputing the misleading manufacturer claim, because if Microsoft decided to only let one company sell Windows laptops...say, Lenovo...then they (Lenovo in this case) would almost immediately become the top manufacturer, assuming pricing was unaffected. The comparison is silly.
 
2012-11-30 03:06:05 PM  

ProfessorOhki: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

How is comparing Apple to individual windows laptop vendors dishonest? They are in fact an individual laptop maker. Fact: MBP crushed every single individual PC vendor in laptop unit sales. Period. Ok if you mash all the other laptop vendors together and compare them to Apple all by themselves, yes, more windows units sold.

You're asking how comparing sales of a company that is the sole proprietor of their platform to those of individual companies who compete across a licensed platform is dishonest? Really? It's so fundamentally flawed from a logical standpoint that I don't even know how to break it down any further.

The only meaningful comparison is by platform.

Bullshiat. MacBooks run Windows just fine; they use the same Intel cores. They're a PC manufacturer. You can either compare OS X v. Windows or you can compare Apple v. Dell v. Lenovo v. Toshiba v. HP. Comparing Apple mfg v. Windows is about as meaningful as comparing Dodge v. Cars w/o hemi engines.


farm2.staticflickr.com
 
2012-11-30 03:08:17 PM  

Kazan: mcreadyblue: Why?

the Windows Surface RT is designed to compete with iPad, etc and the hardware is designed to so

Windows Surface Pro is designed to compete with Ultrabooks, but it fills a niche where a lot of corporate IT users want a tablet format, but with Ultrabook features.

The only think they have in common is the "Surface name", they both run (variants) of Windows, and they both have the same basic external physical design. Other than looking like each other they are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT BEASTS.


This. Windows has once again made the mistake of using the same name for two different products. The Surface RT and its OS should have completely different names from the Windows 8-capable device.
 
2012-11-30 03:09:04 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

How is comparing Apple to individual windows laptop vendors dishonest? They are in fact an individual laptop maker. Fact: MBP crushed every single individual PC vendor in laptop unit sales. Period. Ok if you mash all the other laptop vendors together and compare them to Apple all by themselves, yes, more windows units sold.

You're asking how comparing sales of a company that is the sole proprietor of their platform to those of individual companies who compete across a licensed platform is dishonest? Really? It's so fundamentally flawed from a logical standpoint that I don't even know how to break it down any further.

The only meaningful comparison is by platform.


What are you on about. You aren't locked into using OSX on a Mac. You know that, right? You aren't forever a slave to the apple software platform. Windows runs natively, just fine on any intel Mac. I'm typing to you from windows 7 on my MBP. Is it because the MBP didn't ship with windows that its not a fair comparison? I didn't realize that spending 60 bucks on an OEM copy of windows means comparing Apple to other computer vendors was UNFAIR.

Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.
 
2012-11-30 03:09:05 PM  

farkeruk: /don't buy Moleskines. You aren't going to turn into Ernest Hemingway because of it.


No but you will turn into a starving writer after spending all of your food money on a notebook.
 
2012-11-30 03:11:00 PM  

neongoats: Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.


Are you TRYING to sound dumb or does it just come naturally? I ask this because your argument is so self-evidently absurd that it doesn't deserve any other response.
 
2012-11-30 03:14:19 PM  

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: ProfessorOhki: SacriliciousBeerSwiller: neongoats: Yep, they saved a hundred bucks. Grats. There is a reason that apple has been crushing the rest of the PC industry when it comes to mobile pcs. Pretty much only Lenovo has the quality to compete.

Except that they aren't....Windows laptops are still king. Unless you are comparing Apple to individual Windows laptop vendors, which would be a bit dishonest. Or if you count iPads, which is even more dishonest.

That's not dishonest. No one's comparing OS there. No one said OS X is crushing Windows they said Apple's crushing other manufacturers, which... alright, still not accurate but Apple's definitely having good growth there.

[cdn3.pcadvisor.co.uk image 500x309]
I couldn't find one that was just laptops, but here's to hoping Apple being a miserable failure in desktops and a runaway success in pads balance out a bit. Fantastic growth... still pretty terrible market share.

I won't argue Apple's growth. I am merely disputing the misleading manufacturer claim, because if Microsoft decided to only let one company sell Windows laptops...say, Lenovo...then they (Lenovo in this case) would almost immediately become the top manufacturer, assuming pricing was unaffected. The comparison is silly.


Yes, and if that happened Lenovo WOULD be the top manufacturer, but that hasn't happened, so Apple is. For the sake of comparing leaning manufacturer, OS does not matter at all in the comparison. You've got to keep your groupings consistent: none of this iOS v. HTC, iPhone v. Verizon, Windows v. MacBook garbage. Unless the things you're comparing can be described with the same categorization: carrier, model, manufacturer, OS, etc the comparison is worthless.

SacriliciousBeerSwiller: farm2.staticflickr.com


I'm not sure what the straws mean. I know people with MBP who only run Win7 and Linux. They liked the loops and the weight/battery life. Also, the whole single-manufacturer thing does help out a bit with getting consistent Linux driver support as opposed to the crap-shoot of "oh god, which wifi chipset does THIS model use."

/And this is coming from someone who dislikes Apple
//Stop making me indirectly defend them, please?
 
2012-11-30 03:16:30 PM  

ProfessorOhki: comparing leaning manufacturer


*Leading

ProfessorOhki: They liked the loops and the weight/battery life.


*Looks


Apparently, today is not a good day to Internet.
 
2012-11-30 03:22:31 PM  

Vegan Meat Popsicle: neongoats: Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.

Are you TRYING to sound dumb or does it just come naturally? I ask this because your argument is so self-evidently absurd that it doesn't deserve any other response.


Are you? Counter my argument, asshole, or stfu. You can't, because my point is built upon verifiable fact. Fact: the MBP has outsold every other laptop manufacturer for several years running. They have a still growing market presence, with little signs of a slowdown.

Show me one, SINGLE non apple laptop manufacture that can boast the same thing. You cannot.
 
2012-11-30 03:28:34 PM  

ForgotMyTowel: For those trying to understand what the Surface Pro is and why it is spec'd the way it is, let me run this scenario by you:

Suppose you're an engineer and at some factory somewhere. You work with some kind of CAD program, like AutoCAD for example, at your desktop. You're in the middle of updating some designs and you need to take a look at the actual layout. With the Surface Pro you can have a full version of AutoCAD installed, with the exact same interface and capabilities as the version on your desktop(because they are the same version). That allows you to grab the tablet, go downstairs and take a look at whatever it is you're designing and make complicated changes with the full version of AutoCAD installed on your tablet right there. When you're done, you can go back upstairs and continue working on your desktop, all seamlessly. Now I know that there are AutoDesk released an app for iOS and Android but they're a different layout and no where near full featured. It's also somewhat limited in what file types it can use and how it uses them. In addition, the iOS and Android tablets are using low powered processors which are slow and cumbersome (or just not capable) when looking at large DWG files.

In addition to this, from an IT perspective it's also very convenient. Since the Surface Pro is running Win8 Pro, it can seamlessly integrate with your domain and take all the GPOs and other security software. There's no need to try to shoehorn the software into the company network like you'd have to do with Android or iOS. Also, from a user perspective, the UI is identical whether you're on a tablet or desktop. You can configure you tablet to run exactly like you desktop with all the desktop programs OR you can configure it to use the more tablet friendly Metro style apps.

This all is very ambitious on MS's part and I'm skeptical that they can pull it off. But the vision, once you understand it, is actually pretty straight forward and not all that off the ...


Or, how about using an iPad with Remote Desktop. You get the portability and battery life of the iPad and the power of your workstation! I got tired of synchronizing files between my laptop and desktop so I just used RDP to access my desktop. It was almost seamless switching to an iPad(w/ Bluetooth keyboard) when I got tired of lugging around the laptop.
 
2012-11-30 03:33:17 PM  

neongoats: Vegan Meat Popsicle: neongoats: Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.

Are you TRYING to sound dumb or does it just come naturally? I ask this because your argument is so self-evidently absurd that it doesn't deserve any other response.

Are you? Counter my argument, asshole, or stfu. You can't, because my point is built upon verifiable fact. Fact: the MBP has outsold every other laptop manufacturer for several years running. They have a still growing market presence, with little signs of a slowdown.

Show me one, SINGLE non apple laptop manufacture that can boast the same thing. You cannot.


umm what?
Link

www.notebookcheck.net
 
2012-11-30 03:35:27 PM  

neongoats: Vegan Meat Popsicle: neongoats: Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.

Are you TRYING to sound dumb or does it just come naturally? I ask this because your argument is so self-evidently absurd that it doesn't deserve any other response.

Are you? Counter my argument, asshole, or stfu. You can't, because my point is built upon verifiable fact. Fact: the MBP has outsold every other laptop manufacturer for several years running. They have a still growing market presence, with little signs of a slowdown.

Show me one, SINGLE non apple laptop manufacture that can boast the same thing. You cannot.


and what? Link

allthingsd.com
 
2012-11-30 03:35:49 PM  
Tobin_Lam:

That's what I use at home to play Baldurs Gate 2 on my droid tablet, chilling on the couch instead of at a computer, heh. I
 
2012-11-30 03:37:43 PM  

olapbill: neongoats: Vegan Meat Popsicle: neongoats: Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.

Are you TRYING to sound dumb or does it just come naturally? I ask this because your argument is so self-evidently absurd that it doesn't deserve any other response.

Are you? Counter my argument, asshole, or stfu. You can't, because my point is built upon verifiable fact. Fact: the MBP has outsold every other laptop manufacturer for several years running. They have a still growing market presence, with little signs of a slowdown.

Show me one, SINGLE non apple laptop manufacture that can boast the same thing. You cannot.

umm what?
Link

[www.notebookcheck.net image 800x406]


Ok you got me, ONE laptop maker other than Apple grew.. My bad.
 
2012-11-30 03:42:46 PM  

neongoats: olapbill: neongoats: Vegan Meat Popsicle: neongoats: Your argument is specious. Pedantic. Basically false. Apple laptop sales continue to grow, and every other Laptop makers sales have fallen. That's verifiable fact. Now, we can debate why that might be, but not while you insist on claiming its not nice, fair, honest to compare etc.

Are you TRYING to sound dumb or does it just come naturally? I ask this because your argument is so self-evidently absurd that it doesn't deserve any other response.

Are you? Counter my argument, asshole, or stfu. You can't, because my point is built upon verifiable fact. Fact: the MBP has outsold every other laptop manufacturer for several years running. They have a still growing market presence, with little signs of a slowdown.

Show me one, SINGLE non apple laptop manufacture that can boast the same thing. You cannot.

umm what?
Link

[www.notebookcheck.net image 800x406]

Ok you got me, ONE laptop maker other than Apple grew.. My bad.


no worries. I just like a google challenge.
 
2012-11-30 03:45:04 PM  
You know, I have a 7" tablet myself and it's great for reading, light web surfing, bringing to the bathroom when I poop, etc. But it's so painful to type on that I hardly ever use it even for the simplest forum posts or emails. I still think, for the average person, tablets are media consumption devices.

I know there are lots of people who claim they use their iPads for real work and then describe some obscure use case that, indeed, seems well suited to a tablet. To me, the only thing the Surface brings to the table is that it can extend the tablet's capability in a few more niche use cases.

I'm just not seeing a compelling reason for corporate America to buy a Surface over a nice laptop with better battery life, a larger screen and a high-quality keyboard.
 
2012-11-30 04:06:04 PM  

neongoats: Show me one, SINGLE non apple laptop manufacture that can boast the same thing. You cannot.


Who's saying your not saying true things? Nobody's saying that your comments aren't completely factual. They're pointless. That's an entirely different thing. You could also say that sky is blue. It would certainly be a fact and an equally irrelevant one.

You're picking and choosing stupid metrics because you're trying to have a stupid argument that serves no useful purpose, you know it, and you don't care because you're too dishonest to just stick to the discussion at hand.
 
2012-11-30 04:08:55 PM  
Except that the Surface Pro isn't a tablet. It is a laptop with a tablet form factor. Why can't people understand that.
 
2012-11-30 04:12:59 PM  

psy5ive: I'm an Apple guy, but I really like the idea of the Surface Pro. I don't think it's overpriced or the battery life is that bad for what it is.

I really like the idea of having a Tablet/Ultrabook in one. I've been going back and forth about getting a MacBook Air, and I think that I'll just continue to wait. Since the Surface Pro is x86-based, it's just a matter of time before someone shoehorns Ubuntu or OS X on it anyway.

I'm game for it, but count me out as an early adopter.


I have the 11" Macbook air and it is probably the best Apple computer/laptop I have ever owned. The 2.2 lbs and ultra portability make it just amazing to use. I decided to go all out and I ordered it with the 2.0 i7 processor and 8GB of ram and it is very very quick. I use to take my ipad everywhere but with this being the same screen size I just said screw it and took this instead. I would definitely recommend one they are easily worth the cash and perfect for someone who is wanting an ultrabook.
 
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